Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Ripple Sides With Banks!?🔥VanEck Backs Coinbase!🚨Matthew Sigel INTERVIEW

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Ripple Sides With Banks!?🔥VanEck Backs Coinbase!🚨Matthew Sigel INTERVIEW · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The battle has begun and Clarity Act is in the crosshairs.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Today we'ld be breaking that down with Matthew Siegel coming
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: in from Vanak. Before we get started, I do want
• 0:08
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• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Use our link down below. It does give you a
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: little bit of discount. I want to go to a
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: couple of clips and a couple of tweets before we
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: get started with Matthew. This of course, was a tweet
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: we put out yesterday around my conversation with Zach Pandell
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: coming over from Grayscale, and just remember this was the
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: statement of where you were seeing where the industry is
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: setting up on it, and basically gray Scale had been
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: in a position where they were backing Coinbase's stance of saying, hey,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: this is a bad bill. We should not be passing
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: a bad bill. It's really what it boils down to.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: You also had this going out almost immediately after that
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: video that we put out, which by the way, the
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: title was no bill is better than a bad bill.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: And the interesting point that he's getting at is this
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: right here. You might not let every part of the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Clarity act, but I can guarantee you you'll hate the
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: future dem version even more so. I don't know if
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: this is Trump one oh one in terms of negotiation.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Definitely not part of the art of the deal. It
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: appears that this guy is I don't want to say it,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: but I think he's probably either neutral or maybe pro
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: bank in this kind of situation where he's basically backing
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: up I think what the industry is asking for, which
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: is of course a fair deal, and we'll see if
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: that actually comes through. Another thing I wanted to hit
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: on this was Brian Armstrong actually responding a little bit
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: because there's a lot happening in the open social sphere
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: right now, and here's what he had to say. Take
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: a look.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I asked them, okay, is there a path to fix
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: this after it comes out of committee? And they basically
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: told me behind closed doors, if this comes out of
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: committee where the bipartisan vote, we can't really help you
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: on the full Senate floor. And so I felt like
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I had to stand up and say something defending our
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: customers' rights.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: This is President Trump's spill, not Brian Armstrong's spill at
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: the end of the day, and that the White House
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: is going to pull out if you don't come back
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: to the table you push back on this.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: What's really happening. Oh yeah, I mean this is not
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: our bill. This is a core part of his crypto agenda.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: There's some people who are a little grumpy. I think
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: they got caught off guard. It's kind of like that
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: metaphor of you know, three blind people looking at an
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: elephant and everyone's trying to figure out. You know, there's
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: probably somebody in the ministration who had that point of view,
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: but that's not the people we're speaking with. I don't
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: think have taken that approach. They actually very much want
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: to get this done. I read through the draft text.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: Our lawyers were looking at it, and I said, this
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: is wrong. You know, this would harm consumers in America.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: To me, it's Unamerican, it's unethical. You can't come in
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: and write a bill that enshrines the incumbent tries to
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: ban their competition. I'm just not going to stand for that.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: I have zero tolerance and I'm going to say it publicly.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: And it pissed some people off, but I think it's
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: going to help us get to the right outcome on
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: this bill. That's the kind of leadership that I want
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: to exemplify in the world.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: And it's one of those things. Whether you trust Coinbase,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: you don't trust them. The point is is they are
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: standing up for some issues I think that really do
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: protect retail. Mike Belshi came out, the right side of
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: history is where is that where you will be, where
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: interests will be on retail on stable coins, And of
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: course I think the point he's getting at here is
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: aligned with what a lot of people are saying now.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: The problem is is we haven't seen a lot of
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: people backing coinbase, at least openly and I've got some
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: few clips to kind of go into that as well,
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: but I want to bring Matthew Siegel on coming in
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: from Vanak to kind of break some of this stuff. Dane,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: how are you, Matthew? How are things going?
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: Hey, Paul, good to see you.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you see the battle going on right now,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: both in DC. But and it's all for I think
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: the purpose of moving crypto forward. When you look at
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: the current state of where we are right now in
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: the Clarity Act, would you consider this as a fair
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: deal for the crypto industry.
• 4:33
  Speaker 5: I thank you. I'm on Brian Armstrong's side here. You know,
• 4:37
  Speaker 5: I think that the current draft makes it too hard
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: for coinbase and its competitors to aspire to be the
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: everything app. It's going to make it too hard for
• 4:48
  Speaker 5: them to pass along that stable coin yield to their clients.
• 4:53
  Speaker 5: And your point about enshrining incumbents, I think was very valid.
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: Also if you look at that section five oh five
• 5:03
  Speaker 5: of the bill, which makes it impossible for the blockchain
• 5:07
  Speaker 5: to be the ledger of last resort when trading exchange
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: listed securities. So you know, I get at the odds
• 5:16
  Speaker 5: of the Clarity Act passing. We came into the year
• 5:19
  Speaker 5: close to eighty percent on polymarket, it's now forty percent.
• 5:24
  Speaker 5: But you know, it's reasonable to push back on what
• 5:28
  Speaker 5: looks to be an incumbent written bill that enshrines DTCC
• 5:33
  Speaker 5: dominance and also bank dominance.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: So obviously what we saw on polymarket. Do you feel
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: like this is something that is I think Brian still
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: appears to have faith that this is going to go
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: through with some concessions from both sides. Would you be
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: on that to kind of sixty forty forty passing of
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: what polymarket is saying or do you feel little bit
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: more confident?
• 5:59
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think at any given point, the odds
• 6:01
  Speaker 5: of a bill passing or less than fifty because you know,
• 6:04
  Speaker 5: I think it's like three percent of proposed bills get
• 6:07
  Speaker 5: passed into law. It's not as if the regulatory backdrop
• 6:11
  Speaker 5: has been good for alt coins, right, all coins have
• 6:13
  Speaker 5: been in a bear market for the last year. So
• 6:16
  Speaker 5: I'm on the side of, you know, no bill is
• 6:20
  Speaker 5: better than a bad bill, and to use the legislative
• 6:25
  Speaker 5: majority to force a better outcome. And if there's no bill,
• 6:29
  Speaker 5: could we really do any worse than what's happened to
• 6:31
  Speaker 5: alts here over the last year?
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think we could do worse. If this
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: bill were to actually get through, that would be a
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: pivotal point in maybe the future of American crypto in general.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: I want to play a clip of this, of course,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: is by Brad Garlinghouse at WEF talking about this. Take
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: a look.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Do any of these tokens need to have some sort
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: of an interest bearing element?
• 6:55
  Speaker 6: I think no particular need to bear interest for a
• 6:59
  Speaker 6: medium exchange because they'll be instantly transmitted.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: Frankly, we don't care.
• 7:05
  Speaker 7: As a bank, we don't care.
• 7:08
  Speaker 8: We want our customers to get the best thing for them.
• 7:11
  Speaker 7: If they like us for it, and we'll keep on
• 7:12
  Speaker 7: doing that.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: They would love it if the US stable coins quit
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: were banned from paying rewards, and we need to make
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: sure that consumers benefit and these each country puts their
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: interest first, governor.
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: To the point, does the digital urine need to pay
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: some sort of an interest in okase? Why rewards dividend interests?
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: Is it necessary on stable coins?
• 7:32
  Speaker 8: You know, I mean, Ripple doesn't have as much of
• 7:34
  Speaker 8: a dog in that fight as others in the industry,
• 7:37
  Speaker 8: and so we you know, there's others that have stronger opinions.
• 7:41
  Speaker 8: It doesn't directly affect Ripple's business as much. I agree
• 7:46
  Speaker 8: in some ways that, like, look, competition is good. Crypto
• 7:50
  Speaker 8: companies should be held the standards that banks are, and
• 7:52
  Speaker 8: banks should be held the standards of crypto companies are
• 7:55
  Speaker 8: in order to compete. So I don't think that's a
• 7:57
  Speaker 8: one way street that somehow the team Crypto gets to have,
• 8:01
  Speaker 8: you know, a certain pass in some way.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: I think the point there, I would argue is this
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: is in Team Crypto. It's really everybody that would be
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: able to come to the table. I think it's just
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: the issue that banks don't want to change the business
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: model in which they get paid interest and suck that
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: up from the you know, their depositors as opposed to
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: what's happening in the crypto market. Would you, I think
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: you saw that there the banks were clearly against this.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: It shows the hand now even further up the chain
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: which is being at we f are there any bankers
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: that you know that actually are for the idea of
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: innovating and competing on a level playing field.
• 8:42
  Speaker 5: Well, there have been eight bank charters, special purpose bank
• 8:45
  Speaker 5: charters that were granted in twenty twenty five, and most
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: of those went to crypto companies who want to issue
• 8:52
  Speaker 5: stable coins and pay interest on a daily basis.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: So there's just a huge innovator's dilemma here.
• 8:57
  Speaker 5: It's obvious that any older of a bond or savings
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: account would prefer to get their interest stream to them
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: daily rather than letting JP Morgan Chase sit down that
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: float for a month and then pay out a fraction
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: of the underlying yield. So you know, obviously, you know
• 9:18
  Speaker 5: consumers would prefer the interestparing stable coin. Regulators are worried
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: about bank deposit flight, and here we are.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think though, I mean, obviously we've seen
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: bank deposit flight for some time going into money markets
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: that has been fairly active, and money market numbers are
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: as high as they have they have ever been, So
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I still think that's an argument. Back to your point
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: is that it's innovation that is swarting where this market
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: is going. Hopefully we'll see the banks actually step up
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: and try to figure out some innovative models that would
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: help them get to the table more competitively. Here's David Sachs.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Of course he's our crypto and ais are. His position
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: is interesting to listen to. I want to get your
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: opinion take a look.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: Crypto community pulled it.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: I imagine they were calling people like you during.
• 10:07
  Speaker 6: All of this, the so called yield issue of whether
• 10:09
  Speaker 6: stable coins are going to be able to pay yield.
• 10:11
  Speaker 6: There's a difference of opinion between the crypto industry and
• 10:13
  Speaker 6: the banking industry.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And where do you sit.
• 10:16
  Speaker 6: I'm in favor of reaching a solution and facilitating a compromise.
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: What's what's a potential compromise look like?
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: Because it looks like the banks don't want it to
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: allowed to be happened, and it looks like the crypto
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: guys are adamant that it happened.
• 10:28
  Speaker 6: And I would urge that some of the crypto folks
• 10:31
  Speaker 6: to be a little bit to see the bigger picture.
• 10:33
  Speaker 6: I understand that yield is philosophically important to them, but
• 10:36
  Speaker 6: so is getting an overall market structure bill. But I
• 10:39
  Speaker 6: think what's going to happen is that after market structure passes,
• 10:42
  Speaker 6: the banks are going to get fully into the crypto industries.
• 10:44
  Speaker 6: And I bet you over time the banks like the
• 10:47
  Speaker 6: idea of paying yield because they're going to be in
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: the stable coin business.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: Okay, I got to ask you, Matthew, do you believe
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: do you believe that.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 10:56
  Speaker 5: I believe that a deal in this case between say
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: Coinbase and the drafters of this legislation comes down to
• 11:05
  Speaker 5: how many clicks does the consumer have to make to
• 11:08
  Speaker 5: opt into the coinbase rewards program? Right, And so you
• 11:12
  Speaker 5: become a coinbase member, and if you read the relevant
• 11:16
  Speaker 5: disclosures and click through the necessary clicks, then you're going
• 11:19
  Speaker 5: to earn You're gonna be able to earn a portion
• 11:22
  Speaker 5: of the yield that circle is earning and then passes
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: it through to Coinbase.
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: And Brian just doesn't want.
• 11:28
  Speaker 5: The friction on that to be so high that Coinbase
• 11:31
  Speaker 5: can't actually gain any customers. So, like I think, maybe
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: this bifurcation of yield is not allowed.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: Yield is allowed.
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: That's too bright a line. Yield will be allowed. It's
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: just a question of what types of disclosures and how
• 11:47
  Speaker 5: many clicks the consumer has tomate.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, but my question is what Sachs was saying
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: is that he believed that at some point, if this
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: goes through, that banks would actually forfeit yield to consumers,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: that they would come around to the idea of paying
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: yield on stable coins. Do you believe they would?
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: I believe that if stable coins grow from you know,
• 12:09
  Speaker 5: three hundred billion to two trillion, and it looks like
• 12:13
  Speaker 5: we're on that path, then there's going to be pricing
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: pressure for the banks and they're going to have to
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: start paying their interests.
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: Call it twice monthly or.
• 12:21
  Speaker 5: Whether it's weekly, whether that's streaming via stable coin, or
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: whether it's via a traditional deposit mechanism. I don't think
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: it really matters, you know. I think this is about
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: returning consumer welfare to the holders of the debt, and
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: that's the direction of travel.
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: I just don't know where the competition would come from
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: if if it's not capable of being paid across all competition.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: That's the point that I think the whole issue is
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: with Clarity is that they're locking out the crypto industry
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: from actually exercising one of its innovations, which is a
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: problem I think going forward. One other problem, of course,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: is getting around token is securities. This one I think
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: is closer to you guys, as a big supporter of Solana.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Here's Carlos Domingo talking about token is securities. To take
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: a look, it.
• 13:08
  Speaker 7: Is probably not the right negotiation approach. It just felt
• 13:11
  Speaker 7: like a really, really good progress compared to where we were.
• 13:14
  Speaker 7: They're taking a risk that is impacting the whole industry.
• 13:16
  Speaker 7: So it's going to be a bear asset or permission
• 13:19
  Speaker 7: less or it's going to be able to people are
• 13:20
  Speaker 7: going to be able to trade it with our licenses, etc.
• 13:22
  Speaker 7: That's not going to happen. And what I saw in
• 13:25
  Speaker 7: the Clarity Active they were basically reinforcing that message.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: So Carlos, head of Securitize, been on our show before.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Securitize a big competitor with x stocks, will say that,
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: which is a direct competitor. Obviously that's being supported by
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: Solana now on ethereum. But the point is is that
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: it does start to push down on what's going on
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: in the idea of token is stocks. What would you
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: do you agree with that or do you would you
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: say no, this should be wide open in the market.
• 13:56
  Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think the main debate here is
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: whether the blockchain can be the definitive.
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: Ledger for securities.
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: And as the bill was written, my understanding is that
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: it entrenches the DTCC monopoly. It leaves settlement at T
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: plus one for exchange traded securities, and that's a disadvantage
• 14:23
  Speaker 5: for you know, open source blockchains now that that's not
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: the case for OTC securities, and I think that's part
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: of the reason why figure is, you know, stock continues
• 14:33
  Speaker 5: to make all time highs, is because the helocks that
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: they are issuing on chain are OTC and so they're
• 14:41
  Speaker 5: able to still realize the full benefits of that without
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: entrenching some existing incumbent like DTCC.
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: So there's a I think a lot of.
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: Folks who are talking their book here and you know,
• 14:55
  Speaker 5: might not mind the current bill going through because they
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: have those legacy regulations I put securitize in that in
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: that bucket because they have the ats and the transfer agent,
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: so you know, they might be a winner from the
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: bill as currently written.
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: So, as currently written, obviously this band's permissionless stock trading.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: So would you be for that or are you in
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: agreement that this should not be put in the bill.
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: I mean, we'd like to see that section rewritten and
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: let the open source chains compete. You know, we'll see
• 15:37
  Speaker 5: how that shakes out.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Who who benefits most from an anti bank bill right now?
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Would it be the likes of a NAVE or others
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: out there that are already exercising this kind of tool
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: in this kind of product. What do you think.
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: If that section is rewritten, then you I would stay yeah, yeah, Well,
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: on one side, it would be the stable coin intermediaries
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: like coinbase, right, who want to go out and acquire
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: customers and effectively still pay them that yield. So that's
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: why I think you see Brian really leading the charge
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: on the stable coin side.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: For Circle.
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: You know, I think it matters less because they they
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: are able to pay yield to their institutional counterparties. It's
• 16:27
  Speaker 5: just the question of how those counterparties then pass it
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: along to the retail client.
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: And then on the tokenized.
• 16:35
  Speaker 5: Securities front, I think it's the open source blockchains like
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: Solona and eth that would benefit if the regulator in
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: that legislation permits the blockchain to be the definitive ledger
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: rather than simply mirroring dtcc's ledger.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what about on the lending side, So would you
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: say maybe that's where something like a morpho and ave.
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe.
• 17:05
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know, from my perspective, we've we've tilted
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: towards equities over the last year, and we thought that
• 17:15
  Speaker 5: the deregulation at the SEC, which started really with anti enforcement, right,
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: So the front. Really what they could do first informost
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: was remove the enforcement mechanism, and that put a lot
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: of these chains on maybe equal footing from a decentralization perspective,
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: when actually the reality is not.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: Uh and so yeah, it's it's my view that.
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: The open source chains would be the biggest beneficiary from
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: rewriting that section.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, all right, When you look at the markets right now,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Matthew are and you see what's happening in clarity, you
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: see the macro pressures that we continue to track here
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: on the show, whether it's looking at it inflation, the
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: job conditions, what we're seeing on a global macro positioning
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: in this market right now? Does macro even matter anymore?
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Or do you think it's all really regulatory framed at
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: this point?
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: I mean, if you look at bitcoins, yeah, I mean,
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: Bitcoin's correlation with the Nasdaq.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: Is elevated versus its five year history.
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: It's it's not as high as it was in the
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: two inflation regime, but it's certainly elevated. And you can
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: see the move when the Asian markets opened on Sunday night,
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: that BTC was the first thing to move on the
• 18:38
  Speaker 5: fears of an escalating trade war because of the Greenland machinations.
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: You also had.
• 18:47
  Speaker 5: A major cell side strategist from Jeffreys, who removed Bitcoin
• 18:50
  Speaker 5: from his model portfolio on quantum computing fears. And then
• 18:56
  Speaker 5: I think there were some technical issues. Btc rallied hard
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: into the one hundred day moving average, and then we
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: had an RSI close below seventy that that turned some
• 19:06
  Speaker 5: of the chartists negative, and we identified eighty nine k
• 19:10
  Speaker 5: as a possible you know test, so here we are
• 19:13
  Speaker 5: today kind of testing that level. So there's definitely a
• 19:17
  Speaker 5: macro element to this, and then there's some you know,
• 19:20
  Speaker 5: Bitcoin specific But just to like get back to your
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: last question, which I didn't answer very well about, you know,
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: are we pivoted to equities because we thought that the
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: coins were not really going to show differentiation based on
• 19:34
  Speaker 5: their decentralization and that has you know, played out really well.
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: Some of our equity strategies are up.
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: Fifty percent while your bitcoin is down five percent over
• 19:44
  Speaker 5: that period. And that's why I'm kind of like dodging
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: your question on whether AVE is the winner or Morpho
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: is the winner. Is that under the current regime, it's uh,
• 19:54
  Speaker 5: you know, companies not tokens, which are accruing value, and
• 19:59
  Speaker 5: I would need to see something change in the markets
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: before abandoning that view.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I think the the idea behind this
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: is if this, if we get a pro clarity, meaning
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: it's pro crypto industry DeFi, it opens up Ave and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: others to actually a path to becoming companies and maybe
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: at some point become a polymarket level type company that hey, yeah,
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: we're going to go public could be.
• 20:25
  Speaker 5: I mean, AVE itself has We think there's quite a
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: bit of tension between the interests of the token holders
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: and the owners of AVE, the private company's equity, and
• 20:36
  Speaker 5: that tension, you know, persists throughout the space is kind
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: of opaque uh uh, incentives leading to outcomes that are
• 20:49
  Speaker 5: not always in the token holders best interests.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: Been following what we're on with the open Ai. Yes, well,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: that's kind of the same thing, isn't it.
• 21:00
  Speaker 5: Well, there's no token right that people are buying for.
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: It's a private companies. There's the equity in that company.
• 21:07
  Speaker 5: To the extent that open ai can make money, you know,
• 21:10
  Speaker 5: that should accrue to the holders of open ai equity.
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: There's no token floating around that folks are speculating on.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that I agree with, but I think the
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: condition of a company that's kind of in that position.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of tech startups that are like that,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: you know, on an ongoing basis. Speaking of another tech startup,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: we got to talk about what BM and R has done.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: You put out a tweet right here bm R wins
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: the authorization for new share issues. Not talking about them
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: being a startup, but the company they partnered with is
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: definitely a startup, and that of course is what mister
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Beast is doing around the idea of financial services. First
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: of all, what do you think about b M and
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: R currently? Do you feel like this is the right
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: strategy for them?
• 21:57
  Speaker 5: We do, and we hold b M and R shares
• 22:01
  Speaker 5: in the node ETF that I managed, and we came
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: out in favor of their plan to increased the number
• 22:10
  Speaker 5: of authorized shares.
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: No doubt it's a big increase.
• 22:13
  Speaker 5: The proxy consultants were against it, but you know, getting
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: these retail shareholders to vote their shares is really like
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: herding cats, and I can totally understand why Tom Lee
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: wanted to get it done all at once.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: There have been.
• 22:29
  Speaker 5: Ethereum dats like bit Digital, which went through a similar
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: exercise failed to get a quorum and enough people to
• 22:37
  Speaker 5: vote their shares and ended up being in this limbo
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: situation for several weeks, which really took the wind out
• 22:44
  Speaker 5: of their sales in terms of like acquiring Ethereum, and
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: that stock has been a big underperformer. So I think
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: that bitmin has been on the front foot on authorizing
• 22:57
  Speaker 5: a buyback. They're the only DAT to pay a dividend.
• 23:01
  Speaker 5: Tom Lee grew up in the equity markets. He is
• 23:03
  Speaker 5: telling the institutions this is going to be the most
• 23:07
  Speaker 5: equity friendly DAT around, and we think it's wise to
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: give them the benefit of the doubt.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: When you look at this strategy, because the first time
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: that I saw it and our research team had kind
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: of uncovered it, you put out a tweet also kind
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: of isolating one thing, and that was the YouTube component here.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: You know, YouTube announced US creators are going to receive
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: stable point payouts. Maybe there's a bridge here. And then
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: you have Tom Lee partnering with mister beaese's largest YouTube creator.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: There is really the most commercial by far now going
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: into a financial product that has a conduit into the
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: biggest distribution that I think is out there. You know,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: I know of nothing else that would even compare to that.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Do you think this eventually makes its way into where
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: there might be some sort of integration into marketing financial
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: services via these kind of avenues.
• 24:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think you identified the potential synergy, which is
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: YouTube paying out stable coins to creators, and so there's
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: there's kind of an upside option if mister Beasts were
• 24:16
  Speaker 5: to endorse that type of mechanism or endorse a particular
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: chain like Ethereum in order to kind of pay in
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: advance for whatever stable coins he's moving around. We did
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: add Google to the no DTF once that news came
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: out that they're on the front foot in terms of
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: stable coin payments. They also are working on a payments
• 24:37
  Speaker 5: blockchain which is not widely released. But Google owns a
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: significant portion of Tero Wolf, which is a publicly traded
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: bitcoin minor who is providing much of their infrastructure. So
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: I know that bitmind got a fair bit of hate
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: on this investment. I think it's really it's pretty small
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: in the context of their overall balance sheet, and you know,
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: I don't I hate the idea of taking a couple
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: of moonshot bets like.
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: Beast holdings.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a moonshot. Bet, I think the the
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: synergy behind it of what Bitmine is trying to do,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: especially on the ethereum front. And you kind of apply
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: to what could be happening with mister Beasts, which is
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: a very forward thinking organization. So if they get if
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: they get a little bit of a lift in their
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: financial services, this could get interesting very quickly. Let's go
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: into our lightning round with you, Matthew, and these are
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: some slides that basically kind of ask you where you
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: would stand on these questions. The first one is should
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Clarity Bill be voted as is? I think you've already
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: stood on this one, saying no, am I correct.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah's a note for me. Hold out for a better deal,
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: hold out for.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: A better deal. You and I are on the same
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: page there. Let's go into our next question, which is,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: if a pro crypto Clarity Act fails to pass, should
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: we fired David Sacks? I say we. I think Trump
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: would be very upset if we don't get this fast,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: and Sax would be on the chip.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna add a leg to this parlay.
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: I'll say that if if Clarity Act doesn't pass and
• 26:15
  Speaker 5: there's no progress on the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve. Then yes,
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: David Sacks should bow out after the midterms.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: There you go, all right, Well you and me both
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: on that.
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: We agree.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: He's gonna have to go find get back over to
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: craft ventures making money. Crypto ETF total AUM slows without clarity,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: Okay, this is a counterfactual, so pretty unfair. But I'm
• 26:44
  Speaker 5: gonna say no because I think that bitcoin still represents
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: you know, the vast majority of inflows and lack of
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: Clarity Act might actually give BTC more differentiation here.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Okay, I am going to agree with you for that
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: very same reason I would agree with that. I think
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: bitcoin ends up winning. If that is the case, will
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Vanak launch a fully open DeFi product in twenty twenty six.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: We're having fun with this one.
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: This is an easy one.
• 27:15
  Speaker 5: So you know we're regulated by the SEC. And the
• 27:18
  Speaker 5: answer to that is.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: No, no, all right, I'm going to say, Paul Atkins
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: pulls an end around and lets you do it nice.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: All right, Let's go into ethereum twenty thirty price target.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: This comes from you, So I'm going to ask you
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: to pick high or.
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: Low the base case.
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: If I recall was I don't want to say the
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: exact number, but it's it's in the middle of those
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: two ranges. Okay, I think we'll be well hire the
• 27:48
  Speaker 5: closer to the high end than the low end.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna put you kind of there. I'm
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: going to stay right with you on that as well.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: More conservative. Last question is Binance enters the United States
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: in twenty twenty six. Do you think they will?
• 28:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah, they're already here through through buys US. Yeah, some
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: data shows there they're they're you know, holding some market
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: share there, so you know, could they merge those two
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: entities maybe once Clarity Act comes in or if CZ's
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: maybe provides some more information to the New York Regulator.
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: I think i'd lead to us on that too.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like it. Hey, it's been fun. I love
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: to First of all, thanks for doing the speed round
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: with us. That's always fun. Great to see you, Great
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: to see what Vanack is up to. You guys, of
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: course check out Vanak and all. They're doing very active
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: of course in the blockchain and also in some of
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: the holdings that they are working on. So thanks for
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: coming in today. We appreciate it. Matthew.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: Thanks Paul, if you.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: Like this video, Like and subscribe, drop a comment down below,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: and all so join our free private member group. The
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: links in the description