Latest / International Flavor: Where the Truth Tastes Better / The Flock Trap: Ike Skelton, Camden County, and the Hidden Dangers of America’s Police Surveillance State

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The Flock Trap: Ike Skelton, Camden County, and the Hidden Dangers of America’s Police Surveillance State · International Flavor: Where the Truth Tastes Better

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Interrupt this incredibly awesome music to bring you some incredibly awesome political talk on damn radio
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Hello, good evening. Welcome. I am samuel trap
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This is international flavor and you are currently with me in spirit only
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At the lake ozark real estate of the art studio
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You want to send me some emails tonight, please do live at damn radio.com or the old samuel t at international flavor
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.com
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If you feel like phoning in call in five seven three
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seven four six eighty twenty i'm a little on the grumpy side tonight and
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Not even for myself, isn't that depressing?
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I am
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actually grumpy
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Because of what someone else is going through or what he has already
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Gone through and i'm quite grumpy about it. It is
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Mr
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Todd isaac skelton otherwise known to the planet as ike skelton
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just a good man a brave man and contestant and
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in camden county
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No higher authority
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He is the presiding commissioner of camden county missouri and he has been
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These are my words not his this is all
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Sammy, okay. This is me
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and it has uh, uh, you know, he has no idea i'm doing it, but uh,
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He he has been targeted and I am grumpy about it
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I don't like it when people got get targeted. I didn't like it when I got targeted and trust me
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I've had my share of targeting and I know what it looks like
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And it makes me grumpy
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that this good man
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has had to
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Bend over and take it up the tailpipe and he did the right thing
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I'm, not complaining about that. But but I want to talk about this. I think this is
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Crap
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And if you are a good camden county citizen and you don't know about this, perhaps you should find out
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and
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A lot of people already know I know it's been talked about but it hasn't been talked about by me
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I have been pretty silent on it. Although I have known about it for a while and
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uh, I think
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He was targeted
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At the beginning
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By rochelle grosvenor. I often refer to her incorrectly as
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Rochelle christiansen because that's how I knew her. That's how I met her years and years ago
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In jefferson city when she was a democrat and got appointed to judge as a democrat by a democrat for a democrat
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And then you come to camden county and you figure hey, I can't get elected and all I want to do is be elected
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So you change your party and uh, that's just the way it works these days
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It'd be different if she had a different point of view, but I don't believe that to be true
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she still believes in big government and targeting the good guy and
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What she did in this case, I think is crap and I think she shouldn't have done it
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I think people ought to investigate her
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As a potential witness in the case. She was also the prosecutor and she
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Personally sent a letter saying hey, I want somebody to investigate this guy when she was the witness
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This is crap
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and
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I think it is borderline
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Borderline
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Investigative meaning somebody should look into her for it, but they never will because they don't do it
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Against people
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In this on the in the state. They don't do it against state actors state actors always get away with it
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It is they just washed their hands. What?
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What I was trying I was trying to do the right thing
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Oh, yeah, I was trying to do. Yeah, right. She wasn't trying to do the right thing. She was targeting him because
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she
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Knows more than he does
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She didn't try to help him not in any way she attacked him she went after him
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And she went after him
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Well, you know with a vendetta and he ended up today
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Uh taking
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The right move by the way, and just so I don't overstep I will tell you what he said in his
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in his
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press release and I don't have the
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original i've got um
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a a a a
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I have a a version of it. Let's see what it says here. Let's let's take it and see what he said. Um
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Felony counts were all dismissed and commissioner ike skelton resolves the cases and refocuses on county priorities
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So camden county missouri presiding commissioner ike skelton announced today state of missouri has dismissed all felony charges filed against him
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The now dismissed case included a claim of stealing she charged she had him charged with stealing
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This is crap of the of of the greatest
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Level of crap you want to take piles of crap and keep throwing them in
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This is nonsense and they knew they would that he wasn't stealing the cameras
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They knew that from the very beginning she knew this and allowed it to happen. Anyway
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Nonsense, she knew that nobody could prove him guilty of stealing
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Anything and uh, she allowed it to happen or or rolled over and watched it happen. That's what occurred
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um from the outset he and his counsel maintained that there was
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zero
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Evidence of theft or intent noted that the device's owner and the state before he took them
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Were repeatedly notified to remove the unauthorized cameras placed along the missouri public highway
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The owners were invited to retrieve their property
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After the camera was taken down a highway patrolman watched him take them down and didn't arrest him at the time
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nonsense
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the the matter underscored a broad legal question because why
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Because no missouri statute gives the department of public safety or any private company authority to erect
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Automatic license plate reader cameras on state highways and any such power would require a legislative action
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So they've skipped all that. It's this police state at its finest folks
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While the missouri department of control controls highway right away
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The authority does not transfer to the department of public safety or to any private vendor
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and until any court says
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otherwise
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Camden county has an ordinance on this issue that remains in effect
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Nonsense the the to eliminate the cost and distraction of taxpayers and his family
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He agreed to resolve the case
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By pleading guilty to a misdemeanor for obstructing an illegal government operation
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A resolution characterized pragmatic step, you know, and
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Basically ike's a good guy and ike
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Was attempting to do the right thing. I'm not saying whether he did the right thing. I don't know. I don't care
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um, it could have been that he he
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Could have gone to trial and all these things he could have won now as a as a former lawyer
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I can tell you that sometimes you sit down with your clients and you say
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Especially in the criminal world. It's a lot of risk in that
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You know if somebody got these bs felonies like they charged against him
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And your choice is and and a lot of reasons the prosecutor will overcharge. Oh, no, lord forbid. They overcharge
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The prosecutors are known to overcharge
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They throw all kinds of crap at you
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Especially if they know they can't they don't have a lot so they throw even more at you
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It's like they go to some crazy prosecutor school and they don't go to law school. They go to some crazy prosecutor school
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Which trains them to make ridiculous statements?
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And if you don't have donald trump level money
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You can't take the risk. You cannot take the risk because the cards are stacked
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against you
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Nobody wants to disbelieve
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The the police nobody wants to believe that a prosecutor would target anyone. There are all kinds of things
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I have no idea what went on in ike's case because I wasn't involved he had you know
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But I can tell you that I know exactly what happened when you know, I know enough of the story
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To sit down and tell you that hey, man
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This was crap from the get-go and if you're not pissed off about it, you ought to be
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And this this is just wrong and and you know what you can level your anger at a lot of people
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You got to start with these idiot highway patrolmen that went after him and you ought to start with rochelle grossvenor
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and I hope i'm saying it correctly wouldn't want her to be mad at me for that and uh, uh, but
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That it was crap what she did to him it is
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Complete crap. They didn't help him when he was asking for help on how do I do this?
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Not a sole, you know city process or i'm sorry city attorney or county attorney. I mean and uh,
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Rochelle neither one of them said it rochelle. In fact said i'll have you arrested. There's a good plan
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Or she intimated that he would be arrested and then she made sure it happened
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You know if but nobody ever told him you can't do that nobody ever told him that's not that is not
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How it's done perhaps if they had any competence down there
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They would have said hey you need to file some sort of action in court to enforce this to enforce the regulation
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Maybe you file suit against the idiots who who installed them?
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Maybe you go after uh flock itself. Maybe you go after the department of public safety
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Maybe you go after the cops who approved putting it in there from the department of public safety
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Maybe you go after the sheriff of camden county who said it was okay in contravention of county ordinance
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Nonsense, there are plenty of plenty of ways to investigate this case as a former attorney
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I can tell you that i'd I would love to research this case for him. In fact, I did a little bit of looking just today
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But before I get to that because there's several federal lawsuits that have that have gone on regarding this
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And if you're not angry about this, okay
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I had a I had a person come to me a family member that came to me
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Oh, geez several years ago
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and uh
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florida
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What other states there's several states that have these?
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Blasted cameras everywhere. Okay
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on their
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roadways
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and uh
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What what they are using these cameras for for the most part is they are collecting the data
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And if they collect enough of the data
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All over the place they can track your movements
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Without a warrant without knowing so you see all these tv movies that say oh, geez
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Take these traffic cameras and use them to extrapolate your stuff. Why do people buy the spray that uh, that uh makes your
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License plate unreadable there used to be covers that you could put on there
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A lot of states put covers are outlawed so that you can be tracked as they as they go along
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and uh
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Some states haven't outlawed that but then there's a spray you can buy that allegedly you spray your license plate
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And it will hide it. Well people are doing this because they don't want to be tracked
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they say it is a
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uh an illegal search and seizure that they are
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Looking into you. I I you know
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I assume that's what ike and company believed when they put this into effect or when it was discussed in
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And put into effect, but what's the point to have in an ordinance if you're not able to affect it to effectuate the removal?
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You send letters to these a-holes for a while and say come get your damn camera and they never do
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and then when you
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Take it down
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They arrest you and claim you stole it knowing damn. Well, you didn't steal it
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and so this
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where my glasses i've
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Misplaced my glasses. I printed off a copy because
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I I this is here's the
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felony complaint
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Okay
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Felony complaint in
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Three counts. Okay. Here's what's filed against him
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Comes now the prosecuting attorney at county of camden state of missouri buying through the undersigned special appointed prosecutor
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Because rachelle didn't want to do it herself, but she made sure it happened
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Okay, she sent it out, you know, and she was the one
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She made sure this happened she participated in it from the very get go
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She sits with ike and says don't take it down or somebody might investigate you and arrest you so she on her own
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Instigates the investigation after she told him that there were other ways. You should basically I wouldn't do it, you know
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She can't give him legal advice
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You know, but she made sure to target him after that. Okay, so here it is count one
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Charge code 570.030
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In violation of section 570.030 revised. Missouri statutes. He committed the what?
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class
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d felony of stealing
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Everybody knew he wasn't stealing nonsense punishable upon conviction
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Under section 558.002 and 558.011
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that on december 31st
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2024 in camden county, missouri. He
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Appropriated that's right. He appropriated a flock
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Safety camera since when is this a safety camera? This is not a safety camera
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I'm, so i'd argue about that too of a value of at least
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$750 by physically taking it from its location
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on or near highway 54
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And the flock safety camera is owned by flock
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Inc flock group inc and defendant
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Appropriated such property without the consent of flock group inc
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With the purpose to deprive flock group inc there of now, what did rachel christiansen know?
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herself
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I'm, sorry. Rochelle. Grosvenor. What did she know? What did this prosecutor? Who is this? It needs to be
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uh spat at uh
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Nicholas komorowski. Oh good. Polish name perhaps, uh, russian mother russia
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Uh that he is nicholas komorowski who she encouraged to file this
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Uh, he knew it as well. Had he read the reports? He knew this
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And had he spoken to rochelle the witness in the case one of them
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Then he also would have known that there was no intent to steal
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anything
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And this he knew and if he had also
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He would also know
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that
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Letters had been sent to these people. This makes me so angry. This is why I don't like lawyers and state lawyers
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You know for them to make crazy cases like this if you were a plaintiff's lawyer
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Working in the private sector and you made a bs
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Claim like this
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The judge would smack you silly
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By sanctioning you by doing something like this, but these people
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Get away with it every single time
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And they get away with it because people don't say anything. Nobody can say anything
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We're just trying to follow the law and it's a it's a valid complaint
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Yeah, why can't a plaintiff's attorney get away with it if he makes a bs complaint?
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Guess what? He's subject to sanction by the court. He's subject to investigation by idiots at office of chief disciplinary council
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No, not so if you're a state employee you are exempt from all that crap
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You don't get investigated
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You don't get questioned you might lose every once in a while or a judge might dismiss something once in a while, but
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not very often
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And the judge can always claim. Well, I didn't know any of that stuff
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You know those things will come out by making a proper motion, you know, and the defense council will make a proper motion
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yeah, but why should
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A defense council have to do it because they all knew
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That this was only a misdemeanor at the at best
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So they had to allege that he stole something
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So they they had to allege that he stole something of a certain value to make sure
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That it would be a felony, right?
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And so if we if we can just get over that amount we can charge him with a felony and that'll scare him
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With the the risk, you know that's out there the expense that's out there of hiring an attorney all of these things
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Will force him to
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Just give up and plead guilty to a misdemeanor because you know, that'll shut him up
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Anyway, you know if he pleads guilty to something he can't come back and sue us later
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But if he gets this case dismissed perhaps he can come back and sue us
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So we need to make sure that he pleads guilty to something
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And that's exactly what they've done in this case
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and they took
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this
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Crazy fact pattern
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And turned it into so here's a guy the commissioner of camden county
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Elected official rochelle is also an elected official. Is she not?
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Another elected official going after a certain elected official
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nonsense
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First of all, that is bs. You can't go into his office and say hey, you shouldn't have done this
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We need to put this back up but no no, no, I have to prove
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Prove that i've got you i've got to prove that I was right and you were wrong
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I I don't think this proves anything
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even if he did plead guilty it proves that he doesn't want to spend the money or torment his family or
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interfere with other things going on in the in the county or
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Interfere, I mean there are so many reasons to get rid of it for something with very little risk
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I mean, I I don't question that remotely, you know, that's a good deal
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Uh, you know to to get rid of it with a misdemeanor
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If i'm practicing law i'm telling them take it all day long and twice on sunday get rid of the get rid of the risk
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Of a felony just like I would tell anybody else, you know get rid of it
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And how do you get rid of it you get rid of it by taking a deal that they offered you
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Which is what they knew they wanted all along in the first place
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They didn't want to get this guy for a felony and they knew they'd never win in a jury trial anyway
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nonsense
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And so anyway, i'm babbling about this. Let's get on to alleged count to get this
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in violation of section
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569.080 he committed another class d felony of tampering in the first degree
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punishable upon conviction
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That i'm going to say for the same facts for the purpose of causing substantial
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Inconvenience to the missouri department of public safety
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Tampered with a flock
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Safety camera located on or about highway 54 by physically removing
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And taking the camera from its fixed position
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So that is how he is interfering
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with
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the department of public safety
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Well, he had a valid
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Reason to take that down. I'm not so sure that this isn't an uh, you know, he has to have the purpose
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of causing substantial
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Inconvenience, he didn't take this for the purpose of causing substantial inconvenience to the missouri department of public safety
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He took it because there was a camden county ordinance that said they can't be allowed in the county
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If he was mistaken about any aspect of that
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It still doesn't provide the proper intent to prove him guilty of any felony
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Because he has to have had the intent to do so
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And he didn't
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Okay, so then let's go into count number three
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This one here get this is this is beautiful, right?
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In violation of section
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576 he committed the
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class b misdemeanor of obstructing a government operation
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punishable upon conviction
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Blah blah blah and that the same set of facts he purposely
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impaired
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the performance of a government function
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The missouri department of public safety's use of a safety camera
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It is not a safety camera and you need to quit calling it that because it's not it's a spy camera
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in that by the use of force
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the defendant
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Forcibly removed the safety camera from its fixed position
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thereby preventing the department of public safety from using the safety camera
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For public safety and law enforcement purposes, oh like what?
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What are they?
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What are they for?
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You know, they are for tracking citizens. That is what they're for
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And so that is the charge. Okay, that that is the charge that ultimately he pleaded guilty to
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The class b misdemeanor and neither of the other two they knew they didn't have it anyway
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but so
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This is the bs of our legal system if you have friends in the prosecutor's office
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Trust me. You won't be prosecuted
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If you have friends in high places, trust me, you won't be prosecuted
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But if you piss off someone especially the types of the rachel grosvenors of the world
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Then they will purposely come after you with anything. They can possibly allege
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And she made sure that that happened, okay
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and uh
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There's a guy is this the guy who actually watched this
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This the the cop that actually watched him take it
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it's uh
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It's pretty funny
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Um
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Yeah, he didn't he didn't list his name it's it's it's such bs
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That this is put out there so a highway patrolman
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Actually watched ike do this and didn't stop him at the time didn't create his own
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Report it was days later that rachel sent a request to somebody to have them investigate
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You know to investigate this and then this guy went back and wrote a report right? And he he writes a report
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and uh, he writes
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He writes uh, let's see
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I have probable cause and this is a guy named trooper gordon, right?
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And he knows that false statements are punishable, but he can't list the name of the witness on here
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And he did this on january the 7th. So seventh day seven days
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later, okay
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and uh
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He and by the way, ike had been telling him where the camera was and all those facts, you know
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He sent letters to him said hey, I got your camera. Come, you know, come pick it up
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Tell me where to send it blah blah blah, but this trooper gordon the genius, right?
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he goes out to
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and he says
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I have probable cause to believe that skeleton todd isaac committed the offense listed below
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on 12 31 2024
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At 14 29 hours now, that's pretty
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pretty certain time period
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That you know
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A whole seven days later right after rochelle asks you to go investigate
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And then he said then he lists the uh obstructing a government operation
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tampering with the service of utility
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or institution in the first degree
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that he was stealing of
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750 or more
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And that he was receiving stolen property
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And they didn't charge that one. That's kind of interesting that they neglected to charge that right?
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But that's what he was, you know when he wrote this report. He was yep. Rochelle. We got this boy
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We got him
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And he he states as follows on december 31 2024 at 19 29 hours
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It's pretty exact
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A sergeant with the missouri state highway patrol
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A sergeant who?
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You don't know the name of him. I mean jesus i'm sure he did but he didn't put it in here
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We'll leave that that curious mess for later
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Observe two male subjects near the pole mounted license plate recognition
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flock safety camera, which was located on the south side of us highway 54 near ballpark road in camden county
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the sergeant
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the sergeant
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Also observed a brown ford pickup bearing camden county government license plates
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in the area the sergeant
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contacted two subjects
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And wrecking one of recognize one of the subject is todd isaac skelton the current camden county presiding commissioner
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He advised he had paperwork
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Indicating the camera belonged to flock and the most recent
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Memorandum of understanding was no longer in effect
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so
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on december 31st
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I obtained a copy of the mou in question from the m missouri department of public safety
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The current mou is signed in 2022 by camden county sheriff
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tony helms
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It said this mou will commence once executed by both
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Parties and will continue for a period of five years
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Dps provided me with documentation between dps and flock group
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Which indicated flock was the owner of the camera and the camera was leased to dps
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flock group indicates dps is the custodian of the camera
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And is responsible for any fees associated with replacement
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During the investigation. I spoke with camden county prosecuting attorney
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Rochelle grossvenor. Oh my god. She said
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Ike had previously told her he was going to remove the camera. Oh my god
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She told skelton not to remove the camera or he would could face criminal charges
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She made sure that happened
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On december 31 I received information from dps confirming that the flock camera was removed. Oh my god
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Data from the camera showed still images of the interior of a building
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Rendering it useless for its intended purpose and service
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On january 2 flock group provided global positioning system information for the location of the camera
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Indicating the camera was located in the camden county commissioner's office
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By the way, he told them that it was there
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He told everyone this guy watched him take it down
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Nonsense, this is such crap
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on january 2
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I met with skelton who and escorted me to the camden county commissioner's office
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I followed him to the office where he produced the camera and surrendered it to me
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On january 6th flock group estimated replacement of the camera to be
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800 that's convenient, isn't it? The camera has yet to be replaced and services are still interrupted
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Spy services not safety services. Nobody ever said anything about that camera providing any sort of safety
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To anyone and if you believe it's supplying you with safety, you're the problem
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Okay, what they're doing is accumulating
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Data on people that pass by the camera because what does it do?
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It reads your license plate, right? It reads the license plate and transmits that data to where?
30:28
to flock
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and and and they're the ones that record all of the data and
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Are they searching you do they have a right to know that you've passed that do that? I mean
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That talk about government interference. Okay, this
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Is just wrong
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And it's and and i'm very much against these sorts of things. I dislike it
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Enormously that government overreach of this type exists because guess what's happening
30:59
Flock takes all this data and cumulates it
31:03
Flock has access to all of this stuff
31:07
And flock, what are they doing?
31:10
Suppose you
31:13
rented a car
31:14
suppose you
31:16
bought a car
31:17
From somewhere and you go through two three months of I don't know failure to make your car payment
31:24
Guess who they're selling your data to when you cross by it
31:29
The repo company the bank the finance company. That's what they're doing with it. They are selling
31:37
Your information to whoever they want to
31:41
They are flock. They can take your information and do with it. Whatever they want who is going to stop them from doing this
31:50
Nobody and nobody does I want to share with you
31:55
Um, let's see. Let me find a couple of cases here. I did a little bit of looking just because i'm a
32:02
Crazy sob
32:05
And and this pisses me off by the way
32:08
So i've got a working list
32:11
of federal court cases, right
32:14
And one of them I want to read you the complaint. I even downloaded it for you
32:19
that gives you
32:20
The they want to call
32:23
It safety flock even calls themselves flock safety, right?
32:28
nonsense
32:29
Uh, so here's some federal cases they're civil
32:34
Section 1983 by what they mean by that is 42
32:39
Usc united states code section
32:42
1983
32:43
Which is an exception that allows people to go after police departments
32:49
uh cities
32:51
Individuals in the cities who create these decisions or flock itself
32:56
Okay based on these leases the one that is going on right now doesn't have flock involved
33:03
Is a one called schmidt and errington versus the city of norfolk
33:10
citywide
33:11
in
33:12
Norfolk, virginia
33:15
This is filed in the eastern district court of virginia
33:18
flock network has
33:22
172
33:23
cameras
33:24
The city filed a motion to dismiss the judge denied the city's motion to dismiss on february 5 2025
33:32
they were making uh, you know claims that say that are carpenter style because
33:37
back several years ago a case called carpenter went all the way to supreme court and
33:42
What they were alleging were that cell phone towers that allow cops to go and take your cell phone data
33:49
and and
33:51
Uh triangulate where you were at particular times without a search warrant
33:58
Are an illegal search and seizure and they were doing it all the time
34:02
Well, this is exactly what the department of public safety or flock or anybody involved is doing with all these cameras
34:11
And oh, who am I? I have to speak somebody. Hold on. Let me see if I can figure this out
34:19
Hello fair caller. What may I do for you?
34:24
Hey, can you hear me? I can hear you. Who's this?
34:29
Huh? Huh? What do what can I how can I help you call her?
34:36
How I wanted to ask you about um, he
34:41
How did you feel about um elon musk when he was collecting all the data from everybody
34:51
Everybody's data. I I know nothing about that. What are you talking about?
34:57
You don't know about elon musk and you don't you don't remember doge
35:01
Oh, I don't care about that. I mean, I thought that was a ridiculous
35:05
Endeavor, but you know, I I don't care about that
35:10
But I thought it was ridiculous i'm for you on that what else you got
35:15
It's data collection, okay, i'm against it then what else
35:21
You just dismiss it you're you're you're having a you're having a tantrum about uh
35:27
uh
35:28
Flock flock cameras. Yes, I am
35:32
Yeah, but you don't you don't care that they he he coming in the
35:38
Or that they're they're uh
35:42
Partnering with uh
35:44
Peter teal's what what did what did I just say? What what did I say? I said I am against that
35:50
I am against it
35:53
I'm on your side if you're against it i'm with you
35:57
Me too
35:59
Hey, uh, you know what when uh trump is uh, uh acknowledged that uh,
36:08
uh blockchain stuff works
36:11
And uh, so we can just vote by telephone
36:16
You know what i'm saying
36:18
if they had a a
36:20
If they had a a definite means of identifying every vote i'm not against that either
36:27
What else you got?
36:30
Well, that's how blockchain works
36:32
Yep
36:33
Okay. Well if it if it if it identifies everyone in one person one vote i'm for it. I'm not against
36:41
And they can identify that the right person logged into the right blockchain account i'm all for it
36:47
If you're taking a video call i'm all for it. What else?
36:53
We have a
36:54
Uh one representative for seven hundred thousand something people and other countries have a
37:03
uh
37:04
a representative for
37:06
for each hundred thousand people
37:09
uh
37:11
Um
37:12
I skeleton is is a is really down on on those foreign countries that are that uh,
37:19
Have socialism that isn't for the rich
37:22
He thinks that if you if you live in russia that
37:25
Everybody lives in the same size house and it's a gray and they they all work in a a smudge factory
37:34
Okay, I don't know what ike thinks. Uh, except I do know what he thinks about flock cameras, which is the topic tonight
37:45
Yeah, uh, well
37:47
Uh
37:48
But you can verify that you you're a world traveler, uh, you've been to these places that have functioning democracies, right?
37:57
I have
38:01
So, uh, are you
38:03
are do you like our healthcare system or or
38:07
Do you think we could
38:09
have a single-payer healthcare system like
38:12
I don't know about single-payer
38:14
But I do know that I enjoy going and getting treatment in other countries because it is far cheaper
38:20
and uh, the standards are
38:24
equal to or greater than
38:26
So i'm on your side on that one, too. How does that make you feel?
38:33
Good um and and uh, oh
38:37
How do you feel about uh state-run universities, I I don't think everything should be privatized. Um
38:44
I think hospitals are are not as good a quality as they could be because
38:51
Some things you need
38:53
aren't profitable
38:55
well
38:55
Most countries have dual systems. They have private and they have public
39:00
And you have both available to you, but if you need treatment, you can go get it
39:07
But but when you on on this station, that's not the they don't learn they don't
39:14
See, you may just sound like uh, that's understood but but you realize that they don't understand that right?
39:22
The who don't understand that?
39:25
Most of the listeners of damn radio
39:27
Most of the listeners of damn radio are free to understand whatever they like. I hope that i'm providing valuable information
39:34
Toward that effect
39:37
That will allow them to make decisions about what is true and what's not
39:42
You understand that they they don't they don't understand that uh, you have you have the the the the
39:51
You covered options or your insurance options or you're free
39:55
To pay out of pocket for anything
39:58
That that you want
40:00
It's not covered
40:02
right
40:03
They they don't understand that
40:05
well
40:06
All I know is that when I was paying for an office full of people right before the old obamacare
40:13
I personally paid for
40:16
All of my employees and there were only 10 11 12
40:20
You know at most that that were there and I paid for their health insurance every month and the average cost of that bill
40:27
Was just under three thousand dollars a month that I paid for my employees
40:33
And as soon as obamacare took effect, do you know what I did?
40:37
I paid them that same amount of money
40:41
I increased their salary that same amount and you know
40:43
Why not because i'm a good guy and said go do your own and go find your own because I had been providing it before
40:49
I wanted to continue to provide it
40:52
But I couldn't afford to pay it
40:55
I was doing a valuable thing for my employees who I liked and wanted to continue to provide
41:00
But by the time it was done, do you know that the the cost of mine just me?
41:07
my cost went up by more than triple
41:11
And most everyone's there went up by more than triple in the first period after obamacare
41:18
Took effect we were screwed. And so what happened all those poor people had to go take a substandard
41:26
state-run
41:27
piece of crap insurance policy because they couldn't afford to pay for the
41:33
The best policy and all I did was kick them the same amount of money that i'd been paying for their health insurance
41:39
And then mine I had to turn around and pay an insurance company like more than triple for just my own
41:45
And I think that is bs and I think the system is still a piece of crap and uh, uh, no matter how you slice it
41:53
this I
41:54
I and and by the way at the time I never condemned the old, uh,
41:59
Obaminator, I didn't condemn him at the time. I was like, you know
42:03
I believe that something has to happen in this regard sooner or later
42:08
Because health care costs are far too expensive for the ordinary joe and and something has to happen. I don't
42:17
Condemn him for trying
42:19
I condemn him for not putting enough effort into it and look at this crap mess that we got which still exists today
42:27
so
42:28
I don't see anything different. Sure
42:30
You can go out and pay privately pay three times what you would pay under the obamanator
42:35
But the under obamacare you're gonna pay and then you're not gonna get the treatment you need
42:40
Because you got to fight to get the basics
42:42
I'm, just glad that i'm covered mostly under the veterans administration
42:46
And that people complain about I do too. But fortunately for me i'm fairly healthy. So
42:54
That's unfortunate for you know, the rest of the world who isn't healthy or the rest of america anyway
42:59
But anyway, that's not what I was talking about today
43:02
I was on a topic and i'd really like to get back to it. What are your thoughts on these cameras?
43:06
You think they should still be around you think the government should be following us around cameras?
43:14
Man, you should be thankful. You got a color. I uh, I don't want to talk about canning. Okay
43:19
Well i'm talking about these cameras and right now i'm in the city of norfolk
43:23
And talking about cameras and I want to finish my train of thought because I have several more
43:28
Cases to go through and say if you're not into these cameras, here's how you fight them
43:37
Yeah, well, I thought maybe i'll call and change the topic
43:42
Well, thank you very much, but i'm not going to allow that today I want to get on with uh, what I had
43:48
Originally planned to put your foot down. Yeah, buddy. I appreciate you calling. You have a good evening
43:54
But if you don't want to talk about cameras, i'm going to let you go. Hey, you know why I call you trixie. I'm, sorry
44:01
You know why I call you trixie
44:03
You call me dean parker you call me trixie
44:08
Yeah
44:09
Why is that because?
44:12
Because because you called dean parker
44:15
And uh was talking in a queer voice and trolling him
44:20
I called dean parker
44:24
Yeah, I don't even know who dean parker is I know you don't know nothing about it do you
44:31
I have no idea who dean parker is and I don't call and troll anyone
44:40
so
44:41
You're you're okay. Well, whatever I have no idea who dean parker is
44:46
Hey
44:47
I'm, i'm all for flock cameras
44:49
If you if you can't knock a flock camera down and leave without making a scene then you're a dumb ass
44:54
And you're a dumb ass too. So, okay. Thanks for calling
45:00
Well, and there he goes
45:02
Um, well there you have it
45:04
Anyway, I want to get back to these flock cameras and schmidt versus errington in the city of norfolk
45:12
and uh that city had put in over
45:15
172 and frankly they were actually trying to put some more trial is allegedly still set for the fall of 2025
45:22
But I think that's been moved actually
45:25
Uh, because I went out and had a look at it on the federal website
45:28
But um, I think it's still
45:30
Still, uh going to go further and see what happens and and I believe it'll be appealed
45:35
It's right now at the eastern district of virginia
45:38
court
45:39
and so, uh, I forget which circuit that is is uh,
45:43
Uh, we'll have to look that up to see where it gets appealed to
45:47
but that could end up at the at the uh, united states supreme court because as I was saying before the caller, uh,
45:54
gave us his uh
45:57
Elucidation on these topics. Um
46:00
The supreme court
46:02
has held in a case called carpenter that without a warrant search of
46:12
Like radio towers of your ping where the ping goes on your cell phone of tracking your location on your cell phone device
46:21
Without a warrant
46:22
Is an illegal search and seizure and so you have to have one before you can use it so
46:29
The effect of this schmidt versus errington case or i'm, sorry schmidt and errington versus the city of norfolk case
46:37
They've made a similar
46:39
allegation and the judge
46:42
After the initial 12b6 motion to dismiss was filed
46:46
he
46:47
granted
46:47
Uh, or did not grant the motion to dismiss meaning he allowed the case to go forward
46:54
and then
46:55
the flock has tried several times
46:58
to
47:01
Intervene in the case to become a party to the case because they want to fight for this. They can't have some
47:08
some lowly
47:11
City
47:12
Attorney, you know some some city being represented by a private attorney. They can't have that
47:20
can they
47:21
and so
47:22
a flock with their high power big dollar attorneys has also
47:28
attempted to intervene in that case
47:32
And so let's see if we can bring up that case for you
47:36
Because I do
47:38
Have it
47:40
And this case
47:43
Is how the how the complaint is drafted and this complaint
47:48
Went by okay, and this is an interesting story
47:51
So the city of norfolk virginia installed a network of cameras to make it
47:56
um
47:57
Basically, it's impossible to drive anywhere
48:01
in norfolk without having your movements tracked
48:04
Your car and you photographed and all of this stored in an ai-assisted database
48:11
That enables warrantless surveillance of every move
48:16
This civil rights lawsuit was seeking to end
48:20
this
48:21
Dragnet surveillance program. So the city and its police department contracted with a tech company
48:28
called flock
48:29
safety to blanket norfolk with
48:33
172 advanced automatic license plate reader cameras these powerful cameras
48:39
Photograph every single car that passes by unlike a police officer
48:45
Posted at an intersection the cameras never blink
48:48
They never sleep and they see and remember everything every passing car is captured
48:54
Its license plate and other features are analyzed using a proprietary machine learning program
49:00
like flux
49:01
vehicle fingerprint system
49:03
All of that surveillance creates a detailed record of where every driver in norfolk is driving
49:10
Anyone with access to that database can go back at any time and see where a car was on any given day
49:18
And they can track its movement across at least the past 30 days
49:22
Creating a detailed map of the driver's movements
49:26
In the city police chief has boasted that it would be difficult to drive
49:31
Anywhere of any distance without running into a camera somewhere
49:37
So in norfolk, no one can escape the government's
49:41
172
49:43
Unblinking eyes and the city's dragnet is only expanding
49:48
on september 24 of 2024 the chief of police announced plans to acquire
49:53
65 more cameras the cameras make this surveillance not just possible
50:00
But very easy
50:03
Flock provides advanced search and ai functioning the sort of tracking that would have taken days of effort
50:11
multiple officers and significant resources
50:15
Just a decade ago
50:17
Now take only a few mouse clicks a city officer can output a list of locations a car has been
50:23
Create lists of cars that visited specific locations and even track cars that are often seen together
50:31
There are no meaningful restrictions on a city officer's access to the information
50:37
An officer need only to watch flock's orientation video create his own login credential and get access
50:45
After that the police department requires them to log in and use flocks database throughout the entire shift
50:54
Although the police department's policy requires officers use the information for law enforcement purposes
51:00
Only oh, yeah
51:03
No one monitors that use every city officer can search the database whenever they want
51:09
For whatever they want and they don't need to seek any approval
51:14
All of this is done without a warrant. Well for me when I was first going through this I was sitting there going
51:20
So and we all know cops do this don't tell me they do not
51:24
They the the worst husband the worst boyfriend the worst girlfriend is a police officer
51:31
And trust me if the police had this and could find out what their wife was doing during the day
51:37
They would if they could find out if somebody was coming by the house
51:41
They would just like they do to track cell phones of their wives just like they do
51:47
Because rules don't apply to them. Remember they can use this stuff
51:52
They don't just use it for that if they want to find out where somebody is
51:57
And go screw with them. They can do that too. And trust me they do it's not
52:02
Unheard of for this to happen. No officer has to establish probable cause swear any fact in a warrant application
52:10
Or await approval of a neutral judge
52:13
The cameras just take the photographs and store the information of every driver that passes by suspect or not
52:20
by the way, just like they do for
52:23
your phone and all of that data and being able to just access that data is
52:31
an illegal search according to the carpenter case the photograph and
52:35
Informations are available to any officer
52:38
In in the city to use as they see fit and if city officials download the photos and information during that 30-day window
52:47
There's no restraint on how long they can hold that data or how long they can use it
52:53
We're still flock itself a private company
52:58
Has a centralized database with over one
53:03
Billion license plates read every month. They're all over the country
53:09
Tracking where you're going. So even after a driver leaves a city
53:14
Officers can potentially keep following them to more than five thousand communities
53:20
Where flock has cameras?
53:23
So this is a big case and and ike is now in the middle of it
53:26
Likewise any person with access to flocks centralized database can access the city's information
53:34
Potentially without the city even knowing it
53:38
More ominously the city's police chief has said this creates a nice curtain of technology
53:45
For the city and the surrounding area
53:48
Plaintiffs are ordinary people who live and work in norfolk
53:52
Every day they drive past the city's automatic license plate readers as they go to work go to the store
53:59
Go to their kids school go to church go to meet friends go to meet family
54:03
Like most people they maintain a reasonable amount of privacy in their lives and they find it creepy
54:09
That the city's unblinking camera eyes follow them as they go about their day
54:15
Noting where they are and when and storing their movements in a government database
54:21
for any officer to see
54:24
They worry about how someone might use or misuse that information, especially given the minimal restrictions on its access
54:33
the city's
54:34
camera surveillance system
54:37
violates the fourth amendment
54:40
tracking a person's public movements
54:44
Over 30 day periods is definitely a search
54:48
The city is gathering information about everyone
54:53
Who drives past any of its?
54:57
172 cameras
54:59
to facilitate
55:01
And they're in what you know in quotes here. I'm putting these quotes
55:06
to facilitate
55:08
Investigating crime. Yeah, right in doing so they violate the long-standing
55:16
Societal expectation that a person's movements and associations
55:21
Over an extended period are their own
55:24
personal
55:25
business
55:26
And only theirs and because the city does all of this without a warrant
55:32
Instead of letting individual officers decide for themselves
55:37
When and how to access an unprecedented
55:41
Catalog of every person's
55:45
Movements throughout Norfolk and beyond
55:49
The city's searches are unreasonable
55:52
Isn't that correct? Of course, it's correct. This is exactly the type of
55:59
police surveillance
56:02
Talked about in carpenter versus united states, which is a 2018 case
56:07
I've been telling you about that the fourth amendment was adopted to prevent
56:12
And this lawsuit
56:15
Was what was put into place to attempt to end it by lee schmidt and crystal errington the two plaintiffs
56:24
against the city of norfolk the norfolk police department and mark talbot who is the
56:31
norfolk chief of police
56:34
And that is basically
56:37
the case
56:39
And defendant mark talbot is you know, basically being sued
56:43
He has the authority to establish policies and blah blah blah
56:48
automatic license plate readers sometimes called alprs or lprs
56:54
are computer controlled cameras
56:57
Mounted above the ground level or on police cars
57:01
That automatically capture all license plate numbers that come into their view
57:10
These images are then typically transferred to a computer or a server
57:14
Which uses optical character recognition software to convert the image into a license plate number
57:21
It's a relatively new technology
57:24
The earliest forms date back to the late 70s as a technology is improved and gotten cheaper
57:30
It has gained more widespread adoption among law enforcement
57:34
Agencies the cameras capture images of every car that passes them
57:40
Unlike a police officer. They don't take breaks. They don't blink. They don't sleep
57:45
They operate around the clock capture all license plates that pass within a fixed distance
57:50
Even at high speed or at night once an alpr capture a license plate
57:55
It creates a record of the location and time of the capture that information is then stored in the database perhaps
58:03
indefinitely
58:05
Some companies that sell alprs and software services to police departments
58:11
Also offer the customer
58:14
the capability to pool data
58:17
by opting into such data sharing
58:21
police departments can create
58:24
multi-jurisdictional
58:27
Databases that track the movements of cars across cities states or even the entire
58:34
country
58:36
Police departments commonly compare the license plate images to any hot list
58:41
This hot list includes vehicles reported stolen and those suspected of involvement in a crime
58:48
Anyone with access to the department's?
58:51
Database can use the data to track a car over time
58:56
With enough cameras the data can be used to pinpoint a car's location
59:00
and map its movements over any time period for which data exists
59:06
A driver can be tracked to church to a doctor's office to a drug abuse treatment clinic to a political protest
59:13
anywhere
59:14
They also create a record of every other car at that location at the same time
59:21
Revealing not just where the person was driving
59:24
But who else was there around the same time?
59:28
This can be used to do to determine who a driver met who they traveled with reveal a driver's friends
59:35
colleagues
59:37
Associations this is scary crap people
59:40
Some companies offer software that automates the tracking practice, you know people like rochelle would love this
59:48
You know, they want to be able to pinpoint where you are at every second so they could come and you know
59:54
Tell you that you're going to be arrested come up with something to get you right like she did with ike
1:00:00
allowing an officer to easily compile these records with minimal effort an
1:00:06
Investigation that would have required a team of officers to tail someone for days
1:00:12
or multiple investigators to cobble together information from multiple
1:00:17
Data sources now takes an instant with a few mouse clicks software programs
1:00:25
Can let police map a driver's route
1:00:28
And produce an analysis of vehicles commonly seen in the same vicinity
1:00:34
absent any warrant
1:00:36
How the police use these systems is left up to the officer's own devices
1:00:43
Officers can abuse their access to get reason information for illegitimate reasons
1:00:49
Like tracking a protester or tracking a personal acquaintance and third parties can even gain access
1:00:56
These threats are more than just a mere possibility
1:01:01
for instance
1:01:03
A police chief and an officer in different departments in kansas use data from the same
1:01:11
Vendor that defendants use to stalk their ex partners
1:01:17
Okay, let's let's let's read about that
1:01:20
Huh?
1:01:21
Let's let's do how about we say kansas city kansas police chief
1:01:28
used
1:01:29
flock
1:01:31
license plate camera
1:01:34
164 times to track his ex-girlfriend
1:01:39
This was an article from august 17
1:01:42
2024
1:01:44
Let's see a sedgwick
1:01:46
Kansas police chief used flock safety license plate readers to track his ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend's vehicles
1:01:55
228 times over four plus months and used his police vehicle to follow them out of town
1:02:03
According to a city official and a report least released earlier this week by the agency
1:02:09
overseeing police certification
1:02:12
Lee nigard admitted to misusing flock while he was being investigated
1:02:17
for an unrelated
1:02:19
Misconduct case a sedgwick official said
1:02:22
He then resigned the license plate readers alert officers of specific license plate plates
1:02:30
Flock which has license plate readers in four thousand plus cities across the country
1:02:35
Would not agree to a phone interview and wouldn't say how many instances of police abuse
1:02:41
The cat of the cameras has occurred
1:02:44
While it is the job of law enforcement to hold the general population
1:02:49
accountable to the law
1:02:52
Ultimately, it is the job of our elected and appointed official to hold law enforcement agencies
1:02:58
Accountable to local and state laws that govern their use and misuse of policing technology
1:03:04
flock
1:03:05
spokesperson
1:03:07
Holly balen is what it sounds like said in response to the questions
1:03:12
Flock said it wasn't formally notified of the incident and would not say more about that
1:03:19
it's the second instance of
1:03:21
police misusing
1:03:23
The cameras that has been publicly reported the first also happened in sedgwick county when a lieutenant in kitchy
1:03:31
Used wichita's police flock cameras to stalk his estranged wife
1:03:37
He was sentenced to 18 months of probation
1:03:41
Niagara won't face charges, but he did lose his police certification
1:03:46
He resigned in 2023
1:03:48
He used flock cameras to check for his ex-girlfriend's whereabouts
1:03:54
164 times and her new boyfriend's whereabouts 64 times
1:03:59
According to the order from the kansas commission on peace officer standards that revoked his license
1:04:06
He had been with the department since september 2020
1:04:11
All of that time as chief he could not be reached for comment
1:04:17
Isn't that crazy?
1:04:20
That's article number one. What else do we have here?
1:04:23
Oops, I think I messed up
1:04:26
Oh, no
1:04:28
Son of a nutcracker
1:04:30
Where uh, what was I reading here? I think I have the wrong
1:04:34
Wrong case
1:04:37
Scooby-dooby-doo, where is the document? I was a reading
1:04:45
well crap, I have
1:04:47
I have uh
1:04:50
deleted
1:04:52
I wonder if it's right here. Nope. Oh, there it is. I'm, sorry. Okay. There's another one
1:05:00
Let's see
1:05:03
Surveillance cut this is washington post
1:05:07
where
1:05:08
Let's see that said
1:05:11
Surveillance contractor violated rules by copying travel images
1:05:16
license plates
1:05:18
And license plates can continue to work
1:05:22
with
1:05:24
cpb
1:05:25
customs and border patrol
1:05:28
Private contractor at the center of a massive data breach revealed key elements of the u.s. Government's
1:05:36
Surveillance machinery will still be allowed to continue working with the u.s
1:05:41
Customs and border protection after agreeing to knee new security
1:05:46
controls
1:05:48
perceptix a tennessee-based maker of automatic license plate scanners used to track vehicles
1:05:54
At many of the united states border checkpoints violated cbp rules
1:05:59
When it copied images of travelers and license plates onto a private computer system
1:06:05
Those systems were hacked and held for ransom and had their contents posted online
1:06:11
triggering an emergency response inside of cbp
1:06:15
And exposing confidential agreements hardware schematics and other records. The government had long sought to keep under wraps
1:06:24
Border officials did not learn of the cyber attack until three weeks after the breach was discovered
1:06:31
The breach cast a spotlight on the troubling fact for federal lawmakers and privacy advocates
1:06:38
to privately maintain
1:06:40
Surveillance systems the government relies upon for its wide-reaching
1:06:46
security mandates are expanding
1:06:48
quickly with no
1:06:50
Oversight and it's hard for the public to keep track
1:06:55
Border officials weren't told of the massive breach until three weeks after the subcontractor was alerted
1:07:02
Members of congress this summer expressed expressed fury
1:07:07
Oh, yeah fury right at the breach and said it made them question the risks of the country's surveillance infrastructure
1:07:15
Which includes new facial recognition systems being installed at airports and used by federal investigators and local police
1:07:23
The police states upon us friends and neighbors
1:07:27
And you can't trust the police. That's the problem
1:07:31
The federal government does not have a great track record securing america's personal data
1:07:36
said house homeland security committee chairman rep benny thompson from
1:07:41
Mississippi said at a hearing in july a cbp contractor for 30 years perceptix was suspended from
1:07:49
Contracting for what the cbp official said was evidence of conduct indicating a lack of business honesty or integrity
1:07:56
But in agreement between cbp and perceptix
1:07:59
Made public last week the company will be able to resolve its suspension
1:08:05
And return to federal work, of course as long as it agrees to abide by a number of security reforms
1:08:13
Isn't that great?
1:08:15
They they we should trust them, right? Just trust me. I'm with the government, right? Trust me
1:08:22
I'm with the government. Oh
1:08:26
Terrible how could you not trust the government sam? What's wrong with you?
1:08:31
Well, there's a lot wrong with me, but that doesn't mean I should trust the government
1:08:35
What else do we have in here? Um
1:08:38
the u.s. Cyber security and
1:08:41
Infrastructure security agency issued an alert after discovering a low attack
1:08:46
complexity vulnerability in alprs
1:08:50
Sold by motorola solutions one of the biggest players in the industry
1:08:55
Let us check that one out. Yeah
1:08:59
Here you go
1:09:00
motorola solutions vigilante
1:09:03
Vigilant license plate readers. I say vigilante
1:09:08
Here's the executive summary. They're exploitable remotely low attack complexity. There's a risk evaluation
1:09:17
Successful exploitation of vulnerabilities will allow an attacker to tamper with device the device access sensitive
1:09:25
information or perform a replay attack
1:09:29
And then they list the products that are there
1:09:32
And what they list is several problems with it authentication
1:09:37
bypasses that exist
1:09:38
Clear text storage and files are on disks use of hard code credentials insufficient protected
1:09:46
missing encryption
1:09:48
authentication bypasses
1:09:50
insufficiently protected credentials
1:09:53
migrations to other platforms
1:09:56
it's uh
1:09:57
They have problems is what they're listing within the past few years the number of companies
1:10:03
Have a number of companies have started to offer
1:10:06
Enhanced alprs and software to police departments across the country among the largest is flock a
1:10:15
startup founded in
1:10:16
2017 their cameras are in over
1:10:19
5,000 communities and
1:10:22
Flock claims that it exists to eliminate crime by providing customers with
1:10:28
Actionable evidence they need to solve deter and reduce crime
1:10:34
They offer several different
1:10:37
camera types to government and private sector customers
1:10:41
Flock cameras are compact and require little or no infrastructure make them easy to install and operate
1:10:48
It's falcon LR for instance
1:10:51
Can operate around the clock power itself with solar energy and capture vehicles traveling up to 100 miles an hour from 150 feet away?
1:11:00
These cameras are less expensive than traditional alprs
1:11:04
Which were typically too expensive for smaller mid-sized police departments when flocks cameras capture an image of a car
1:11:11
flock software use a machine learning to create what flock calls a
1:11:17
Vehicle fingerprint this fingerprint includes a color and make the car and any distinctive fit features like a bumper sticker or roof rack
1:11:25
The software they've created converts each detail into text and stores them in an organized database
1:11:32
Flock users can filter their searches based on these features because of the vehicle fingerprint
1:11:40
Automatically links different images of the same car within flock database create a record of that cars movement over time
1:11:48
Flock offers other software features for police departments to use with its cameras
1:11:53
I'm telling you this is scary crap
1:11:57
There's this this is a case in Norfolk, and it's only one
1:12:02
the defendants
1:12:05
Installation and operation of these cameras are
1:12:09
creating a
1:12:10
Running 30-day record of the whole of Lee and crystals movements throughout Norfolk and other
1:12:17
Jurisdictions that allow flock to share their data
1:12:20
because of defendants installation and operation of the cameras defendants being the
1:12:25
police a
1:12:27
Camera has photographed Lee's car virtually every time he has driven out of his neighborhood
1:12:33
since the cameras were installed in February 2023 on
1:12:38
information and belief because
1:12:41
defendants installation and operation of the flock camera flocks have
1:12:45
Photographed Lee's car in and around Norfolk nearly every day since February
1:12:50
2023 as he has traveled to work to the store to church to the shooting range to his daughter's school
1:12:55
after the flock camera
1:12:57
Photographed Lee's car flock created a vehicle fingerprint that linked to different images of Lee's car and flocks database and created
1:13:04
Detailed records of his movements in and around Norfolk on information and belief because of the installation operation of the camera
1:13:11
Flock has photographed that in tracked crystals car and around Norfolk every day as well as she travels to see family friends
1:13:19
provide care to her clients
1:13:22
After the flock
1:13:23
cameras photographed crystals car flock created a vehicle fingerprint just like it did for her husband because of the agreement to purchase the NPD's
1:13:31
Policy a record of the whole of Lee and crystals movements over the past 30 days is accessible to any
1:13:38
Norfolk PD officer and anyone else the NPD has granted access
1:13:44
NPD as a policy or custom of allowing officers to access data from the flock camera without a warrant or other form of prior approval
1:13:52
Thus any officer can access the whole of Lee crystal or any other drivers movements over the last 30 days
1:14:01
Without a warrant. So here's what I suggest is that we come up with you know what?
1:14:06
I think I think I will go down and drive past the camera that I took down and I assume has been reinstalled
1:14:12
Find out where other flock cameras are around the area and then do just a loop
1:14:20
go around and around and around around past those cameras for 30 days and then
1:14:25
file a similar lawsuit here file a lawsuit in
1:14:30
federal court here under the same sort of
1:14:35
Theory that has worked here and I haven't downloaded
1:14:39
The remaining remainder of the case I
1:14:45
Need to log in again and find out if that trial has been passed
1:14:49
I think it has if I remember but it was it was last week when I was looking and when that case was
1:14:55
Scheduled to go to trial and I tell you what these are frightening times and the government overreach abounds
1:15:03
Everywhere you go, and if you're not bothered by it, you should be and if you think oh
1:15:10
Gee, Sam, you're talking about police and those police are all just good guys
1:15:14
yeah, just like the police chief who chased around his girlfriend just like the other one from the
1:15:22
the data breach that occurred at
1:15:24
Customs and Border Patrol and the numerous police that have tracked their girlfriends on cell phones and otherwise and all of those
1:15:33
sorts of things you have to
1:15:35
you have to
1:15:37
Have a warrant to find out where people are going and these cameras. What about the ones that are selling?
1:15:46
Someone's data as they drive past it to the repo company
1:15:50
That's not what these are for but I guarantee you flock is selling them
1:15:55
That's exact or the police department worse is selling them
1:15:58
What if the repo company can go into any police department or the Department of Public Safety and track this movement
1:16:06
And or a judge allows them to do so to get a car if a judge allows them to do so
1:16:12
That's fine. But if a judge hasn't allowed it it isn't and if they're selling these things or these
1:16:19
these
1:16:20
Law enforcement agencies are selling the data to anyone
1:16:25
insurance company anybody
1:16:27
It's not permitted
1:16:29
It or shouldn't be permitted and I hope that this case. I hope these people what were their names again?
1:16:36
Let's go back and find out
1:16:38
Lee Schmidt and Crystal Arrington, I hope they win
1:16:41
I really do and I think that is a
1:16:46
Valid case there was a case in Illinois that are mixed vendors
1:16:51
and this one is a challenge to the ones on the expressway the
1:16:56
Automatic license plate readers and it has a network and statewide sharing and it got dismissed
1:17:03
This case got dismissed and I wanted to read a little bit about this one
1:17:10
because
1:17:11
This has a memorandum that came out the case has a fourth amendment
1:17:16
Challenge to Illinois's automatic license plate reader program and the plaintiffs live and drive in Cook County
1:17:23
The defendants are Illinois a governor Jay Pritzker
1:17:26
The plaintiffs brought the case under 42 USC claiming the pen
1:17:31
Defendants violated Fourth Amendment rights and the plaintiffs move for a preliminary injunction
1:17:36
defendants moved to dismiss under 12 B 1 for lack of subject matter jurisdiction 12 B 6
1:17:44
failure to state a claim and
1:17:46
The background after the pleading stage the court accepts all the facts as pleaded. Well now this is, Illinois
1:17:52
six years ago u.s. Postal worker Tamra Clayton was fatally shot on
1:17:57
I-57 this unfortunate expressway shooting sparked a movement in the community, Illinois
1:18:04
Department of Transportation
1:18:06
Blah blah blah. I want to get to why they implemented the cat two years later, Illinois passed a statute
1:18:14
appropriating funds and extending the program
1:18:18
For buying light automatic license plate readers to 20 other counties to date the, Illinois State Police
1:18:26
installed
1:18:27
344 cameras in Cook County
1:18:29
The surveillance program works in two steps installed on the side of the roads license plate of vehicles driving by are taken
1:18:36
System uploads a photo to in law enforcement archival reporting network this national database
1:18:43
Compiles and stores billions of license plate photos taken in, Illinois and everywhere
1:18:48
Law enforcement agencies across the country can flag a hot plate if for exist
1:18:54
Example a car is reported stolen it is used in as a getaway car has expired
1:19:01
registration license plate photos sit idle in the database until there is a
1:19:06
Hit when the ALPR detects a hot plate when the police receive notification of the hit
1:19:11
They can enter the database and retrieve the license plate photo and associated metadata of when and where this was taken
1:19:18
Information allows police to see what cars pass by that area at the relevant time
1:19:24
And to whom they were registered under the Expressway Camera Act in, Illinois
1:19:29
State police officer may retrieve the license plate photo and investigate any
1:19:34
offenses involving hijacking
1:19:35
Aggregated vehicle terrorism blah blah blah
1:19:38
they may also retrieve a photo to detect expressway hazard and
1:19:43
highway condition and to facilitate highway safety and
1:19:48
incident management by statute all
1:19:51
images from the camera shall be deleted within a
1:19:55
120 days
1:19:57
Unless the images are relevant to an ongoing investigation
1:20:01
plaintiffs challenged the act and
1:20:04
Illinois warrant let's use of ALP ours is unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment
1:20:09
They bring this challenge seeking injunctive relief and attorney fees, but not compensatory damages
1:20:18
plaintiffs asked a court a preliminary enjoined from accessing ALPR data unless
1:20:23
First they obtain a warrant. Okay. No one was the
1:20:29
this case done
1:20:32
Where are we?
1:20:35
Darn it. I need a date friends and neighbors so far. They're not here. Let's see
1:20:44
Legal standard federal rule. Well, this is different because
1:20:49
there is a
1:20:51
use of ALP ours, which we need to go into this in the
1:20:55
Use of the database and it's a long case and I'm never gonna be able to get it to you
1:21:02
all in today
1:21:03
But here it appears that the court granted the motion to dismiss so I'm wondering about the
1:21:11
procedural status of this case Oh
1:21:15
Yep dated March 21
1:21:18
2025
1:21:19
Defendants motion to dismiss was granted because plaintiffs failed to state a claim
1:21:24
They have not demonstrated they are likely to succeed on the merits
1:21:28
The first step in a preliminary injunction off's plaintiff likelihood of success on the merits
1:21:34
Plaintiffs are given until April 30 of 2025 to file a motion for leave to amend if they wish to do so
1:21:41
Well, I'm not sure if that happened yet
1:21:43
And I'll have to dig that up and see if we can come up with some more some more info on that case
1:21:52
Because there's another one
1:21:55
That
1:21:55
Is been Aldi verse Sylvester called the peak skill police department and that case
1:22:03
alleged a long-term LPR querying by
1:22:08
officer
1:22:10
That one was also dismissed
1:22:14
Let's see here
1:22:17
Eastern District of
1:22:20
Los Angeles, I believe
1:22:22
California
1:22:23
USV Cooper is that case then there's
1:22:28
Schemel versus City of Marco Island
1:22:33
the island
1:22:36
Geofencing a LPR retention and sharing challenge
1:22:42
Case continued with supplemental briefing in
1:22:46
2024 that case is still
1:22:50
Local
1:22:52
Local government MCLE Smith versus flock safety in
1:23:00
2024
1:23:04
Show one night versus Whitesboro Police Department in New York
1:23:10
pro se suit
1:23:12
using magistrate recommended
1:23:15
case terminated in 2024
1:23:18
Let's see federal criminal decisions
1:23:24
Where they were not suppressed there the courts are getting more and more into
1:23:30
Use of these cameras. So following those cases like the one
1:23:35
that is includes a warrantless search is going to be a big deal now, it's hard to weave through here and
1:23:42
Get all of those but the carpenter case which was quite important that
1:23:48
did the same thing for cell phones means the police aren't allowed to go out and just
1:23:55
Willy-nilly
1:23:56
Take your phone records. They have to have a warrant in order to get them
1:24:01
That is an unreasonable search is what that relates to
1:24:07
well a
1:24:10
Fun topic, but I'm not sure I want to get into another
1:24:15
Another the carpenter Jones and the reason for this
1:24:19
Let's let's let's call it the courts ruled in it that it was sort of a mosaic
1:24:26
When if for a question that keeps coming back and circling around when if ever
1:24:34
Does an aggregated plate location history become a Fourth Amendment search?
1:24:41
Civil suits like the Schmidt in Norfolk got past 12b6 by pleading blanket
1:24:48
citywide
1:24:49
tracking
1:24:51
Many suppression rulings say the actual query results don't rise to carpenter level
1:24:59
whole of the movement
1:25:01
Tracking which is what they say that carpenter required this mosaic question
1:25:08
Plaintiffs have to show that their movements were captured
1:25:11
So we couldn't just say they've taken movements and that's the mistake
1:25:15
It appears that they made in that, Illinois case that I was looking into
1:25:20
and and and that was also a statute where this the the
1:25:25
That the standard is completely different where they're talking about what the state referred to what the state reviewed in
1:25:33
Saying that it was okay to limit these type of things. So there's a lot of
1:25:39
The fact that there's a statute in that one and that they had a reason for implementing the statute and
1:25:47
infringing upon their citizens
1:25:51
Their citizens rights
1:25:52
so if Missouri has a statute that says we can impinge upon our
1:25:58
Citizens rights because we're trying to get past, you know, we're trying to we're trying to increase safety and they give them this, right?
1:26:05
But it doesn't appear that that's the case here either
1:26:09
Because this is done by local sheriffs. I don't know what the DPS has to
1:26:15
to allow it to
1:26:18
interfere in that regard
1:26:21
But anyway
1:26:22
the plaintiff has to show that their movements were captured and queried in a way that invades their reasonable expectation of privacy and
1:26:31
A couple of cases haven't done that well enough and have been dismissed
1:26:35
Scope duration and density courts will look hard at how many hits over what period of time what the data?
1:26:42
paints as a substantial picture of the movements of the you know
1:26:47
Carpenter the the person who claimed that the telephone would do it the vendor role
1:26:54
Flock has been trying hard to intervene in these cases and they want to hard and in Norfolk
1:27:01
They were not allowed and said that the the police can adequately represent that data
1:27:08
But the fact is that they can access all of the data what gives them the right to access the data
1:27:14
How did they get to hold on to that data? That's your own private data
1:27:19
What if you sued them individually now, there's been a couple of attempts at that and that hasn't been allowed to either and
1:27:27
you know, there was also the one with federal immigration agencies accessing the flock networks and
1:27:34
created some
1:27:36
changes to policy and law
1:27:38
sharing and retention of the data state law friction over cross-jurisdiction
1:27:43
Sharing California lawsuits versus cities, Illinois Secretary of State alleging access
1:27:49
to flock and
1:27:51
retention limits like Virginia
1:27:53
Policy moves that they're trying to make to limit it
1:27:57
And what is the plain view versus aggregation?
1:28:01
I think that they should suppress a lot of the suppression rulings
1:28:06
emphasize that single or sporadic
1:28:09
ALPR pings are like
1:28:11
Public observations not a search but plaintiffs argue that networked long-term
1:28:18
capture flips the analysis
1:28:21
Something that an officer could never do in a million years or even a group of officers
1:28:26
So, I don't know the only active federal case appears to be right now
1:28:32
The one that is Schmidt versus Norfolk and that is a civil case. It needs to be watched. These people are
1:28:38
are putting on a good fight and
1:28:42
it's a run at a
1:28:44
flock run municipal network and it survived a motion to dismiss already and
1:28:50
So everybody is watching this case most suppression fights and criminal cases
1:28:55
Including queries on flock have been upheld the use of these ALPR data
1:29:03
The
1:29:03
Courts are stressing the limited number of hits in the lack of long-term pervasive tracking
1:29:09
I think 30 days is long-term at any rate. My name is Samuel trap. I hope you've enjoyed tonight's program
1:29:16
I've enjoyed doing it had a good time doing it and I thank you very much for participating
1:29:22
You can join me every night from 9 p.m. To 1030 and from 9 p.m. To 11 on Sunday nights
1:29:30
and
1:29:32
That's always at the Lake Ozark real estate of the art studio
1:29:37
I take all of my shows and upload them to international flavor
1:29:41
calm
1:29:43
After the fact and you can always listen to them on that podcast site and they are also at dem radio.com
1:29:50
forward slash
1:29:52
Podcasts. Thank you very much for participation tonight, and you have a good night