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Top 5 Most Chilling Interrogation Confessions · Murder Files Unsealed

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: So I want you to just like imagine you're sitting
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: in a room.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: It's small, you know, maybe 10 feet by 10 feet.
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  Speaker 1: And the walls are this flat institutional beige color.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. The classic interrogation room aesthetic.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Right. Exactly. And the fluorescent lights overhead are just buzzing.
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  Speaker 1: Like they have this relentless sterile hum that kind of
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: vibrates right into your teeth.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: That awful office lighting.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And there are absolutely no windows. Just this heavy
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: table bolted to the floor, a couple of those really
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  Speaker 1: unforgiving plastic chairs, and a clock ticking on the wall.
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  Speaker 2: It's basically designed to be as uncomfortable as possible.
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  Speaker 1: It really is. And the door is thick. You know,
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  Speaker 1: it's soundproofed and closed. But the thing is, the most
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  Speaker 1: important thing in this room isn't the furniture.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: It's not even the person sitting across from you. It's
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  Speaker 1: the camera tucked up in the corner and the microphone
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  Speaker 1: hidden in the ceiling.
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  Speaker 2: Because the cameras are always rolling. Always.
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  Speaker 1: Every twitch, every stutter, every, like, carefully chosen word, and
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  Speaker 1: every involuntary swallow is being recorded because you are in
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: the police interrogation room.
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  Speaker 2: And honestly... It is arguably one of the most high
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  Speaker 2: stakes environments on the planet.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, this is a space specifically engineered by its
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  Speaker 2: very architecture and the procedural rules to just strip away
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  Speaker 2: all pretense.
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  Speaker 1: To break you down, basically.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, to force a collision between this meticulously crafted story
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  Speaker 2: that someone desperately wants to tell. And the cold, hard,
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  Speaker 2: immutable facts of what actually happened out in the real world.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's unpack this. Because the dynamic inside that room
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: goes so far beyond just the mechanics of solving a crime.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: It's pure psychology.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Exactly. And for this deep dive today, we are looking
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: at a massive stack of sources from the Law and
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Crime Network.
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  Speaker 2: They've got incredible archival footage.
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  Speaker 1: They really do. And this compilation details five of the
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  Speaker 1: most shocking interrogation room confessions and confrontations in recent history.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: But Like, the mission of this deep dive isn't just
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  Speaker 1: to look at the crimes themselves.
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  Speaker 2: Right. As grim and fascinating as they are, that's not
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  Speaker 2: the whole story.
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  Speaker 1: No. The real focus is the psychological chess match between
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  Speaker 1: the investigator and the suspect. We really want to understand
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: the exact mechanisms of human behavior when a person's constructed,
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  Speaker 1: self-serving reality just violently collides with undeniable objective evidence.
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  Speaker 2: And, you know, you listening right now, you might think
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  Speaker 2: you will never find yourself on either side of an
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  Speaker 2: interrogation table.
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  Speaker 1: Hopefully not.
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  Speaker 2: Right, hopefully. But the psychology we are looking at today
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  Speaker 2: is deeply, deeply relevant to the human experience.
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  Speaker 1: How so?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it is the exact same mechanism your brain uses
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  Speaker 2: when you get caught in a lie at work, you know?
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  Speaker 1: Oh, man, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Or when you try to justify a terrible mistake to
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  Speaker 2: your partner. Or when you simply refuse to admit you
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  Speaker 2: were wrong about something fundamental to your identity.
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  Speaker 1: That cognitive dissonance. Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: What happens in that beige room is really a masterclass
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  Speaker 2: in the mechanics of human deception. Right. It shows the
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  Speaker 2: way our nervous systems betray our words and how people
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  Speaker 2: desperately and sometimes completely delusionally try to preserve their self-image
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  Speaker 2: under unimaginable pressure.
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  Speaker 1: Because we all tell stories about who we are. We do.
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  Speaker 2: And the interrogation room is the ultimate stress test for
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  Speaker 2: what happens when those stories are fundamentally challenged. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So let's start with a textbook example of that stress test.
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  Speaker 1: We are looking at what investigators actually call the baseline lie.
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  Speaker 2: The baseline lie, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Right. This is the scenario where a suspect walks into
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  Speaker 1: the room voluntarily, they sit down, and they deliver this pre-planned,
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  Speaker 1: seemingly plausible story.
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  Speaker 2: They've rehearsed it in the mirror.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, completely. And they think they've got all their bases covered.
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  Speaker 1: And this takes us to Jacksonville, Florida. It's August of 2017,
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  Speaker 1: and we're looking at the case of Lee Rodarte Jr.
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  Speaker 2: So, to give some context, Rodarte was a manager at
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  Speaker 2: a Bonefish Grill down there.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: And he'd worked there for nearly five years. He was
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  Speaker 2: brought in for questioning because a 21-year-old co-worker who was
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  Speaker 2: also his ex-girlfriend, a woman named Savannah Gold, had vanished
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  Speaker 2: without a trace.
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  Speaker 1: And her car was found in the restaurant parking lot, right?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, with a slashed tire. Her purse was still inside
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  Speaker 2: and the driver's side door was just unlocked.
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  Speaker 1: Very ominous.
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  Speaker 2: Extremely.
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  Speaker 1: So when he sits down with the detectives, the thing
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  Speaker 1: is he doesn't play dumb.
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  Speaker 2: Not at all.
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  Speaker 1: No, he has a whole narrative ready to deploy. Right.
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  Speaker 1: He admits right off the bat that he met Savannah
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  Speaker 1: in the parking lot of the restaurant on the day
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  Speaker 1: she disappeared.
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  Speaker 2: Which is smart, right?
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  Speaker 1: Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: Put yourself at the scene. Exactly.
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  Speaker 1: And he goes a step further and even admits to
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  Speaker 1: being incredibly upset with her. Right. According to his story,
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  Speaker 1: she was going around telling other employees that they were
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  Speaker 1: hooking up.
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  Speaker 2: And as a manager, he claims he was terrified this
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  Speaker 2: gossip would jeopardize his job and his reputation. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: So he says he went to her car to confront her.
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  Speaker 1: And here is the truly fascinating part. He admits to
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  Speaker 1: popping her car tire with a knife.
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  Speaker 2: Wait, he admits to the vandalism?
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  Speaker 1: He does. He claims he just wanted to scare her
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  Speaker 1: and make a point.
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  Speaker 2: See, what's fascinating here is that admitting to popping the
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  Speaker 2: tire is a highly calculated tactical choice in the architecture
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  Speaker 2: of a lie.
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  Speaker 1: How so?
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  Speaker 2: In the psychology of deception, this is known as conceding
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  Speaker 2: a lesser offense to build credibility for a larger denial.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, like a plea bargain with himself.
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  Speaker 2: Basically, yeah. He's essentially offering the investigators a concession prize. Right.
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  Speaker 2: He's saying, look, I'll admit I was angry. I'll admit
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  Speaker 2: I committed a minor act of vandalism and aggression, but
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  Speaker 2: I am an honest guy. And that is the absolute
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  Speaker 2: extent of what I did.
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  Speaker 1: So he's trying to inoculate himself against suspicion. Exactly.
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  Speaker 2: By appearing transparent about his flaws, he hopes they won't
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  Speaker 2: look any deeper.
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  Speaker 1: But then he introduces the escape hatch in his narrative.
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  Speaker 2: The famous escape hatch.
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  Speaker 1: He claims that after he popped the tire... Savannah got
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  Speaker 1: into his car, and while they were talking, she suddenly
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  Speaker 1: confessed to doing heroin and being extremely paranoid.
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  Speaker 2: Out of nowhere. Right.
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  Speaker 1: Then, according to Rodarte, she abruptly got out of his car,
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  Speaker 1: hopped into this mysterious green truck with an unknown driver
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  Speaker 1: that just happened to be passing through the parking lot
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  Speaker 1: and vanished.
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  Speaker 2: A green truck.
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  Speaker 1: A phantom green truck. And he spends the interview playing
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  Speaker 1: the concerned ex-boyfriend, emphasizing that his prime objective is finding her.
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  Speaker 2: Saying they need to be out looking for this truck. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But I have to ask, why do suspects like Rodarte
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  Speaker 1: think a massive, easily disprovable lie like the green truck
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  Speaker 1: will actually work?
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  Speaker 2: That's a great question.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, if you met someone in the parking lot
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  Speaker 1: of a busy commercial restaurant, wouldn't your baseline assumption be
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  Speaker 1: that there are security cameras literally everywhere? It seems like
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  Speaker 1: an incredibly naive, almost childish lie.
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  Speaker 2: Well, lying in an interrogation is like trying to play
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  Speaker 2: a high-speed game of chess while simultaneously doing long division
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  Speaker 2: in your head.
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  Speaker 1: That sounds exhausting. It is.
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  Speaker 2: And all while someone is staring intensely at your face.
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  Speaker 2: The human brain only has so much working memory, you know,
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  Speaker 2: so much RAM available at any given moment.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: This concept is called cognitive load. When you are telling
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  Speaker 2: the truth, you rely on episodic memory. You just retrieve
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  Speaker 2: the file of what happened.
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  Speaker 1: It's just recalling facts.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. It requires very little mental effort. But when you
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  Speaker 2: are lying, especially in a life-or-death environment, your prefrontal cortex
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  Speaker 2: is working in absolute overdrive.
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  Speaker 1: Because you aren't just telling a story. You're managing multiple
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  Speaker 1: realities at once.
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  Speaker 2: Precisely. You have to remember the exact sequence of the
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  Speaker 2: fiction you've created so you don't contradict yourself.
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  Speaker 1: Right. The timeline has to match.
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  Speaker 2: And you have to monitor the interrogator's microexpressions to see
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  Speaker 2: if they are buying it.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, man.
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  Speaker 2: You have to consciously control your own body language, making
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  Speaker 2: sure You aren't fidgeting too much, maintaining the right amount
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  Speaker 2: of eye contact.
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  Speaker 1: That's so much to process.
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  Speaker 2: And, crucially, you have to suppress the actual, true memory
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  Speaker 2: of the event, which your brain naturally wants to bring
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  Speaker 2: to the surface.
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  Speaker 1: So his RAM is just maxed out.
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  Speaker 2: Completely. Rodarte is trying to balance the truth that he
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  Speaker 2: was in the parking lot, that he popped the tire,
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  Speaker 2: with this complete fiction of the green truck. His cognitive
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  Speaker 2: load is so maxed out, just trying to keep the
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  Speaker 2: immediate story afloat, That he likely lacked the processing power
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  Speaker 2: to step back and evaluate the environmental risks.
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  Speaker 1: Like the surveillance cameras.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. His brain is entirely consumed by the immediate survival
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  Speaker 2: mechanism of the lie.
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  Speaker 1: Wow. And the investigators in that room, they clearly understand
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  Speaker 1: the fragility of his mental state.
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  Speaker 2: They definitely do.
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  Speaker 1: Because they don't immediately slam their fists on the table,
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  Speaker 1: point a finger in his face and call him a liar.
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  Speaker 2: No, that would backfire.
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  Speaker 1: They play it incredibly cool. They adopt this persona of
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  Speaker 1: being humble, blue collar fact finders.
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  Speaker 2: I love that tactic.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. One of the detectives literally leans back in his
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  Speaker 1: chair and says to him, we're fact finders, Lee. I
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  Speaker 1: don't have anything personal against you. We're just doing a
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  Speaker 1: job trying to put the pieces together.
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  Speaker 2: The phrasing of that is brilliantly intentional. Really? Oh, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: It's rooted in modern interrogation theory. Historically, interrogations were highly confrontational.
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  Speaker 1: Like the good cop, bad cop screaming matches on TV?
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  Speaker 2: Right. But investigators learned that if you attack a suspect aggressively,
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  Speaker 2: their natural evolutionary defense mechanisms flare up.
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  Speaker 1: Fight or flight.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. The amygdala gets hijacked. The suspect perceives a threat.
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  Speaker 2: They get defensive. They dig their heels in. Their ego
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  Speaker 2: throws up a fortress and they just invoke their right
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  Speaker 2: to silence.
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  Speaker 1: Which ends the interview.
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  Speaker 2: Right. But by framing themselves as impartial puzzle solvers who
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  Speaker 2: are just looking for facts, the detectives completely neutralize that
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  Speaker 2: adversarial tension.
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  Speaker 1: It disarms them.
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  Speaker 2: They lower Rodarte's ego defenses. They make the interaction feel
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  Speaker 2: like a collaboration rather than an accusation.
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  Speaker 1: It's like a psychological lullaby.
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  Speaker 2: They make him feel comfortable in his lie, right up
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  Speaker 2: until the trap is sprung.
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  Speaker 1: And when they spring it?
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  Speaker 2: Oh, man.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Because once his guard is entirely down, they drop the hammer.
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  Speaker 1: The detective's tone shifts. He leans forward, looks Rodarte dead
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  Speaker 1: in the eye, and says, She never got out of
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  Speaker 1: your backseat, Lee.
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  Speaker 2: Boom.
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  Speaker 1: Video cameras don't lie. There is no green truck.
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  Speaker 2: You can just feel the air leave the room.
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  Speaker 1: You can almost hear the exact moment the ram in
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  Speaker 1: Rodarte's brain crashes. The cognitive load becomes too heavy. The
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  Speaker 1: fictional world he built instantly shatters.
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  Speaker 2: Because the fundamental weakness of any lie is that it
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  Speaker 2: requires the listener's belief to sustain it.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's true.
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  Speaker 2: Once the detective introduces irrefutable objective evidence, the surveillance video
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  Speaker 2: that shows him arriving, her getting into his car, a
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: struggle ensuing in the vehicle, and him driving away alone
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  Speaker 2: with her still inside, the lie evaporates.
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  Speaker 1: There's nowhere to hide.
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  Speaker 2: Rodarte can no longer maintain the exhausting mental gymnastics required
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  Speaker 2: to keep the green truck story alive. The cognitive load breaks,
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  Speaker 2: and he is left totally exposed.
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  Speaker 1: And the confession that follows that collapse is... chilling. particularly in
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: his casual brutality and the specific words he chooses.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, his wording is very telling.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Once the green truck lie is dead, he admits they
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: were fighting in the car. He claims she was hitting him,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: and he says to the detectives, I squeezed back.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I squeezed back.
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  Speaker 1: He describes how she had her hands around his neck,
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  Speaker 1: he had his around hers, and then he simply states,
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  Speaker 1: I didn't let go.
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  Speaker 2: Terrifying.
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  Speaker 1: He actually tells the police in this terrifyingly flat tone,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: that he heard a pop in her neck.
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  Speaker 2: That semantic shift from the fabricated lie to the horrific
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  Speaker 2: truth is exactly what the fact finder approach is designed
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  Speaker 2: to coax out.
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  Speaker 1: What do you mean by semantic shift?
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: Well, once his primary ego defense, which was total denial
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: via the green truck, was breached by the video evidence,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: he defaulted to a secondary desperate defense mechanism.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Which is?
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Minimizing his intent and shifting the blame. Notice how he
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: frames the act of murder. He doesn't say, I strangled
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: her to death in a rage.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: No, he says she was hitting him. Right.
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  Speaker 2: He says she was hitting me and I squeezed back
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  Speaker 2: and I didn't let go.
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  Speaker 1: Like it was an accident.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Even in the act of a full confession, his
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: psyche is desperately trying to frame the homicide as a
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: mutual altercation. This tragic accident of physics where he just
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: happened to squeeze too hard.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: It is horrifying to listen to. And he goes on
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  Speaker 1: to detail the aftermath, admitting that after killing her, he
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: drove to his house. tried to burn her body in
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: a fire pit in his backyard, failed, buried her, dug
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: her back up, put her in the trunk of his car,
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: and ultimately dumped her in a residential pond where he
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: used to go fishing.
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  Speaker 2: The escalation is just insane.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: And the audacity doesn't end in the interrogation room either.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: He actually tried to claim self-defense in court under Florida's
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: stand-your-ground law.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Wait, really?
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, arguing that because she allegedly grabbed his neck first
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: in his car... He was justified in strangling her, burning her,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: and dumping her in a pond.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: That is a staggering misinterpretation of that law.
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: I know. And just to be clear, we are neutrally
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: reporting the legal arguments made here. But the judge, unsurprisingly,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: rejected that entirely.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: As they should have.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: He ultimately pled guilty to second-degree murder and was sentenced
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: to 40 years. But Rodarte's case perfectly illustrates the baseline lie, right? Absolutely.
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: A suspect walking in with a script. the police letting
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: them read it, and then handing them the actual footage
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: of the reality they are trying to deny.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: So Rodarte tried to hide a body and use a
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: fabricated story to cover up his presence at the crime scene.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: But consider a completely different psychological dynamic. What happens when
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the suspect doesn't hide the body at all?
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: Oh, this is the Miami case.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Yes. What happens when they stay at the scene and
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: cover themselves in the victim's blood, and hide behind the
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: guise of a tragic accident and an overwhelming performance of grief.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: That's so manipulative.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: How do investigators navigate in an interrogation when the physical
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: evidence fundamentally contradicts a suspect's emotional performance?
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: And that takes us to a luxury condo in Miami.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: It's April of 2022. And this is the deeply unsettling
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: case of Courtney Klenny.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Klenny was a 26-year-old OnlyFans model. She had over 2
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: million followers on Instagram.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Very high profile.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Extremely. And she called 911 in a state of absolute
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: hysterics to report that her 27-year-old boyfriend, Christian Obumsele, was
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: bleeding profusely from a knife wound.
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  Speaker 2: Just a chaotic scene.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: When first responders arrived at the luxury apartment, they found
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: her literally holding his body, covered in blood, as he
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: bled out on the floor.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: And despite being rushed to the hospital, he died from
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: his injuries.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: So, Klenny is immediately brought to the police station for questioning.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: And her initial demeanor in the interrogation room is a
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: masterclass in theatrical distress.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Theatrical is the perfect word for it.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Before the detectives even formally begin their questioning, she is
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: left alone in the room. The cameras capture her sobbing uncontrollably,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: pacing the floor, and talking out loud to herself.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Like she knows she's on camera.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: It almost feels that way. She's pleading with the empty
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: room saying, please, God, Christian, be okay.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: And when the detectives finally enter and sit down with her,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: she delivers her narrative through tears. She claims they had
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: been in a heated argument, that he became physically aggressive
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: and shoved her.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: Setting up the self-defense angle.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: Exactly. And that she reacted in a split second of
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: terror by grabbing a kitchen knife and throwing it at
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: him from about 10 feet away.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: 10 feet away. That's a crucial detail.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Very. She paints this incredibly vivid picture of a terrified,
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: battered woman acting in sudden, desperate self-defense. You know, a
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: tragic freak overreaction where a thrown knife just happened to
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: hit a fatal spot.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: But here is the critical, almost surgical tactical move by
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: the police. They do not tell her that Christian is
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: already dead.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: That is such a common and effective tactic.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: For several hours, they let her believe he is at
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: the hospital getting x-rays and being treated. They let her talk.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: They let her establish her timeline, and they let her
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: firmly cement her claim of throwing the knife from 10
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: feet away.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: All while she operates under the assumption that he might
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: survive and corroborate a version of the story.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Why do they do that?
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: Well, withholding the victim's death from a suspect is a
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: highly calculated, standard investigative strategy, and it is rooted entirely
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: in preventing the suspect from managing their cognitive load effectively.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Interesting. So it's about the cognitive load again.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Yes. If Klenny knows she is facing a first-degree murder
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: charge right out of the gate, she, or more importantly,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: the defense attorneys she would immediately demand, might construct a
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: narrative specifically tailored to justify lethal close quarters force.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, I see.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: But by letting her think it's just a severe injury,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: they encourage her to offer a narrative that minimizes her culpability.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: So she thinks she's just explaining away an assault.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Exactly. An aggravated assault. Right. By claiming she threw the
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: knife from 10 feet away, she is creating physical distance
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: between herself and the victim, which sounds defensive rather than offensive.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: She locks herself into the physics of a thrown object
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: before she realizes the true severity of the situation.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: The narrative she constructs is like a script for a
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: tragic romance where she's the victim of circumstance. But the
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: medical examiner is reading a physics textbook, and the two
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: realities are just on a collision course.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: They don't align at all.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Not at all. When the detectives finally decide to break
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: the news to her that Christian didn't make it, her
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: reaction is wild to watch.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: It's very dramatic.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: She doesn't just cry. She immediately shifts into an almost
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: childlike state of denial and neediness. She says, oh my God,
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: this is not real, right? And then literally asks the
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: homicide detective, can I please have a hug? Am I
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: allowed to do that in here?
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: She asked for a hug.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: She begs the officers not to be left alone in
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the room.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Now, what's fascinating here is that the performance of grief
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: in an interrogation setting is incredibly difficult to analyze objectively
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: because humans process trauma in bizarre ways.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: That's true. Everyone reacts differently.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: We can't say definitively what she was feeling in that
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: exact moment, whether it was genuine horror at his death
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: or sheer terror at her own predicament.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: But from a strict investigative standpoint, her emotional reaction, however dramatic,
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: is secondary to the physical facts she established before the reveal.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Because she's locked into the story.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: The emotional performance cannot retroactively change the physics of the
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: crime scene she just locked herself into.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: And the physics absolutely dismantle her story.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: They do.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: The medical examiner conducts the autopsy and determines that Christian's
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: fatal wound was consistent with a forceful downward strike deep
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: into the chest cavity.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: Downward strike. Right.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: You cannot generate a downward strike that penetrates deeply into
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: the chest by throwing a knife underhanded or overhanded. from
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: 10 feet away.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: It's just gravity and mechanics.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: The biomechanics of it are impossible. The blade would hit
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: at a different angle with significantly less kinetic energy. The
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: physics completely shattered the scared woman throwing a knife from
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: across the room defense.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: It proved she was standing right in front of him
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: and drove the knife down.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: And that physical discrepancy is what prompts the investigation to
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: expand beyond the interrogation room.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Because now they know she's lying about the act.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: Right. Investigators know that if a suspect lies about the
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: physics of the lethal act, They are likely lying about
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: the dynamic of the relationship. They need to establish a
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: pattern of behavior.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: So what do they look for?
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: They pull digital breadcrumbs. They find a surveillance video from
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: the luxury building's elevator taken two months prior to the murder.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, this video is so damning. It is.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: In that video, Klenny is seen aggressively and repeatedly shoving, slapping,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: and hitting Christian, tearing at his hair while he essentially
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: stands there with his hands down, absorbing the blows and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: refusing to fight back.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: It's really hard to watch.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: And they also uncover a prior charge for domestic battery
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: against him from 2021 in Las Vegas.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: That elevator video is just the nail in the coffin.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: for her narrative. It completely torpedoes the battered woman or
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: self-defense against the larger male aggressor story.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: It ruins it completely.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: It establishes a documented, unprovoked, unilateral aggression on her part.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: She was ultimately charged with second-degree murder and denied bond.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Largely because her massive OnlyFans income made her an extreme
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: flight risk, right?
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Exactly. The contrast between her personas is staggering. She played
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: the role of the grieving, fragile, terrified victim in the
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: interrogation room, begging for a hug. But the cold, hard
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: science of the autopsy and the silent witness of the
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: elevator camera told the true story of a relentless aggressor.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: It really highlights a core truth of modern homicide investigations.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Emotions can be faked. Stories can be fabricated. Tears can
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: be summoned on demand. But physical evidence and digital footprints
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: are impartial witnesses.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: They don't have an ego to protect. Exactly.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Which leads us to perhaps the most extreme example of
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: digital evidence contradicting a suspect's constructed reality.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Oh man, this next case.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: Courtney Klenny's story was undone by a past video showing
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: a pattern of abuse and an autopsy report detailing a
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: wound angle. But what happens to the human psyche when
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: the physical evidence isn't a theory from a medical examiner,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: but a high-definition video of the suspect actually committing the act?
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: You'd think they would just confess immediately.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: You would assume that seeing yourself commit the crime on
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: video would force an instant, undeniable confession. But the human
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: ego is terrifyingly resilient.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: And this brings us to the case of Sarah Boone
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: in Winter Park, Florida, in February of 2020. This case
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: is so bizarre and deeply disturbing that it genuinely strains credulity.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: It's hard to even comprehend.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: Boone called 911 to report a frantic, incomprehensible emergency. When
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: police arrived... They found her boyfriend, George Torres Jr., dead
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: inside a zipped-up suitcase in their living room.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: A suitcase.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, a large blue suitcase. When Boone is brought into
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: the interrogation room, she establishes a premise that sounds like
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: a tragic drunken accident.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: She tells the police that they were having a wonderful day.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: They were drinking wine, doing puzzles, painting, listening to music,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: just enjoying each other's company.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Painting this idyllic picture.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: She claims they decided to play a childish game of hide-and-seek.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: and that Torres, in a playful mood, thought it would
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: be funny to zip himself into the suitcase. Okay. Boone
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: says she zipped him in, deliberately left a little gap
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: in the zipper for his fingers so he could breathe
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: and get out. And then she went upstairs to bed
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: and simply fell asleep.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: And just left him there.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: She claims she woke up hours later, realized he wasn't
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: in bed, went downstairs, and found him dead in the luggage.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Now, she is sitting in that beige room, absolutely indignantly
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: insistent on her innocence.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, she is so defiant.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: The investigator points out that Torres had severe bruising on
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: his forehead, a busted lip, and trauma to his skull.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: Right, which makes no sense.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Injuries that don't align with peacefully suffocating in a suitcase.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And she replies with this incredible arrogance. I have not
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: touched him. I have not touched him. How would he
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: get those injured? Tell me, and we'll both know.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: She's literally daring the police to prove her wrong.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: But the investigators have a trump card. And they literally
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: pull it from her own pocket.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Her phone.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: While she was giving her statement, digital forensics analysts were
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: dumping the data from Sarah Boone's own cell phone. And
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: they found a video that she had recorded herself.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: The video they found is pure nightmare fuel.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: It shows the blue suitcase, zipped tight, moving frantically on
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: the floor. You can hear Torres trapped inside, pushing desperately
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: against the sides of the luggage, begging for his life.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: It's horrifying.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: He is yelling, his voice muffled but clear, Sarah, I
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: can't breathe. Sarah, I can't breathe, baby. And you hear
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Sarah Boone's voice from behind the camera, steady and clear.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: She's not panicked at all.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: She isn't panicked. She is laughing at him. She says,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: for everything you've done to me, stupid. That's what you
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: do when you choke me. That's on you. Oh, that's
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: what I feel like when you cheat on me.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Just taunting him.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: She is standing over him, filming him and taunting him
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: as he slowly suffocates to death.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Now, this raises an important question. Analyze what happens to
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: her psychological state when the police turn the laptop around
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: and press play on that video.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Right, what goes through her mind.
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: The cognitive load we discussed with Lee Rodarte, the stress
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: of balancing a lie and the truth, is a minor
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: malfunction compared to this.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: This is on another level.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: This is an entirely different phenomenon. Extreme cognitive dissonance resulting
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: in narcissistic injury.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Narcissistic injury. Yes.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: When faced with a video of herself torturing the man
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: she claims to love, her brain literally cannot reconcile the
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: horrific reality of the video with her deeply entrenched, idealized self-image.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: I just can't wrap my head around her reaction. How
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: can someone sit in a brightly lit room, watch a
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: crystal clear video of their own voice and actions, committing
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: a heinous act of torture, and still look the homicide
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: detectives in the eye and say, I would never do that?
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Because that is exactly what she does.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: When they ask if she zipped him in before this incident,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: she says, I would never do that. She literally looks
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: at the cops and says, I don't think you all
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: understand who I am. I've always been a straight-A student.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: I am an outstanding mother to my son. I excel
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: at everything. I would not do that.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: It's pure delusion.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: She is watching herself do it on a screen. How
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: is her brain not just immediately throwing up a white
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: flag and saying, OK, the jig is up. You got me.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: It comes down to the architecture of the human ego
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: and the mechanisms of psychological preservation.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: Okay, break that down for me.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Boone's self-image, the straight-A student, the outstanding mother, the woman
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: who excels at everything, is incredibly rigid and utterly foundational
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: to her sanity.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: It's who she believes she is.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: For her to consciously admit, yes, that is me on
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: the video, and I intentionally left a man in a
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: suitcase to suffer and die out of spite, would require
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: her to accept that she is a monster.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Which would destroy her.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: It would completely shatter her identity. The human mind will
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: go to extraordinary lengths to prevent a total psychological collapse.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: She isn't just lying to the police in that moment.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: She is desperately, frantically, automatically lying to herself. The reality
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: of the video is so abhorrent to her constructed self-concept
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: that her brain's defense mechanisms actively reject the external data.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: She actually starts retreating into these bizarre excuses. She claims
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: she doesn't remember making the video at all. She blames
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: the wine.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Right. I was drunk.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: She says, I promise you on my son's life, it
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: was not intentional. But the detective shuts that down beautifully.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: He really does.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: He points out that in the video, she isn't slurring
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: her words. She isn't acting drunk or silly. She is lucid.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: She is angry. She is vindictive. And she is clearly
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: expressing a specific intent to punish him when she says,
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: that's what you do when you choke me.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: The detective is drawing a vital legal and psychological distinction
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: between I don't remember because I was intoxicated and I
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: didn't intend to do it.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Intent is everything in court.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Exactly. The video captures undeniable intent. It transforms what she
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: desperately wants to frame as a tragic negligence case, an
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: accidental death resulting from a drunken, stupid game into a
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: charge of second-degree murder.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Because she was taunting him.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: The video shows her acknowledging his extreme distress, I can't breathe,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: and actively choosing to ignore it in order to inflict suffering.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: Her inability to accept this reality is so profound that
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: her legal defense became an absolute circus.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, I read about this.
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: She fell out with multiple court-appointed attorneys. Her defense fell
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: apart so badly that one public defender actually withdrew from
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: the case because Boone was writing letters to the judge
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: calling her own lawyer a dud and a buffoon.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: A dud and a buffoon.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: She simply cannot and will not accept any version of reality,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: legal or factual, that contradicts her view of herself as
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: an excelling, perfect person who is the victim of circumstance.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: So Sarah Boone stared at irrefutable, high-definition evidence of her
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: own crime. And absolutely refused to give a true confession,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: clinging to her denial like a life raft to protect
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: her fragile ego. Exactly. But in contrast to that, what
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: happens when an interrogator profoundly understands that desperate need for
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: ego preservation and weaponizes it?
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: That's where things get really interesting.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: How do you extract a confession out of someone who's
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: committed an atrocity so unimaginable that even their own mind
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: recoils from it?
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: You offer them a psychological bridge.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: You offered them an out, even if that initial confession,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: you feed them, is a monstrous lie.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Which brings us to the deeply tragic, nationally infamous case
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: of Chris Watts in Frederick, Colorado, from August 2018. Right.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Watts was a supposedly devoted father and husband who murdered
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: his pregnant wife, Shanann, and their two young daughters, four-year-old
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: Bella and three-year-old Celeste.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: And the psychological setup leading into the interrogation room is
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: critical context here. Watts initially played the role of the worried,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: frantic father on local television.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Standing out on his porch. Right.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: He stood on his porch, arms crossed defensively, giving interviews,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: pleading for his family to come home, claiming he had
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: absolutely no idea where they were or what had happened.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Just lying to the whole world.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: But behind closed doors with the police, he is hooked
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: up to a polygraph machine. And he fails it spectacularly.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Now, the polygraph is a fascinating instrument, primarily because of
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: how misunderstood it is.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about that. Are they even accurate?
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Well, the results of a polygraph are almost universally inadmissible
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: in court because they are not scientifically reliable lie detectors.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: They measure physiological stress, heart rate, galvanic skin response, respiration.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: But in an interrogation room, the polygraph is an incredibly
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: potent psychological prop.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: It's a tool for pressure.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: It is pure theater. When the investigator walks into the room,
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: unplugs the machine, looks Watts in the eye and tells
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: him he completely failed, it shatters his confidence.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Oh, I bet.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: It sends a message directly to his subconscious. We know
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: you are lying. The machine knows you are lying. And
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: your own body has betrayed your words.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: And the lead investigator's approach here is an absolute master
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: class in manipulation through empathy.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: She is amazing. Brilliant.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: She doesn't come in screaming at him. She doesn't call
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: him a monster. She sits down, lowers her voice, and says,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: I can just tell on your face that you were
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: wanting to just come clean and just be done with this.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Playing the maternal figure.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: She tells him that holding this dark secret inside is
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: making him physically ill. She builds this bridge of almost
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: maternal understanding empathy. And then instead of aggressively cornering him,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: she does something highly unusual.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Bringing in the dad.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Yes. She allows him to speak to his father, who
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: had flown in to support him right there in the
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: interrogation room.
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: Bringing the father into the room is a highly calculated
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: strategic move.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: Why do that?
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: The investigators have profiled Watts. They know he is fundamentally
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: a coward who is terrified of conflict and terrified of
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: being seen as a failure or a monster, particularly by
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: his parents.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: By bringing his father into the room, they are leveraging
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: his deep-seated desire to remain a good son. They are
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: manipulating the environment to make the act of confession feel
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: like a moment of vulnerable unburdening rather than a criminal admission.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Here's where it gets really interesting. Just before she leaves
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: him alone to talk to his dad, the investigator floats
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: a theory. A terrifying, incredibly specific theory.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: The out.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: She leans in and suggests, did Shanann do something to
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: the kids? And did you react in a rage?
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: She gives him the excuse.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: She literally hands him a prepackaged excuse on a silver platter.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: So when he is alone, whispering to his dad, he
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: takes the bait completely. He tells his dad a horrific,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: entirely self-serving lie. He claims that he told Shanann he
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: wanted a separation, and in a vindictive rage, she suffocated
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: the two little girls. He says he walked in, saw
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: it happen, lost his mind with grief, and strangled Shanann
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: in retaliation. He then admits to taking all three bodies
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: to a remote oil storage site where he worked and
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: dumping them.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Let's deeply deconstruct why the interrogator offered that specific scenario.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: This is a classic application of a technique often called
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: offering a theme or an alternative question.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, so it's a known tactic.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Yes. The investigator doesn't actually believe for a single second
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: that Shanann killed those children.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Of course not.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: But she knows that Watts' ego, his internal psychological firewall,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: will never allow him to immediately admit to cold-bloodedly murdering
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: his own babies.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: It's too much reality all at once.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: The concept is simply too monstrous for his brain to
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: process and vocalize. By suggesting Shanann did it, the investigator
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: gives Watts a psychological stepping stone. Right. It provides a
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: way for him to confess to the physical act of
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: disposing of the bodies and killing his wife while temporarily
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: protecting his self-image. He gets to remain the good dad
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: who was just reacting to an unimaginable tragedy inflicted by
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: someone else.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: It's like a pressure valve for a boiler that's about
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: to explode. They didn't just smash the door down. They
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: opened a tiny crack by letting him talk to his
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: dad and offering that excuse, knowing he would desperately try
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: to make himself the lesser monster. Exactly. He was willing
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: to admit to being a murderer, but only if he
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: could play the victim of his wife's supposed actions first.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: And from an investigative standpoint, the why of his confession
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: in that room doesn't matter as much as the where.
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: Because they just need to find the bodies. Right.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Once he admits to the location of the bodies under
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: the guise of this false narrative, the physical evidence is secured.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: The police rush to the site, find Shanann buried in
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: a shallow grave, and find the little girls submerged in
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: the crude oil tanks.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: It's just so sad.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: He is locked into the crime physically. He ultimately pled
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: guilty to all charges to avoid the death penalty and
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: received five life sentences without the possibility of parole.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: But the truth, the absolute unfathomable truth of what actually happened,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: didn't come out until much later.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Right, the prison interview.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Months after the sentencing, investigators visited Watts in a maximum
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: security prison in Wisconsin. With no trial left to fight,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: no ego left to protect in the eyes of the public,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: and his life effectively over, He finally told the investigators
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: what really happened that morning.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: The full story.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: There was no rage-induced retaliation against his wife. He strangled
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Shin-An in their bed while she slept. During the struggle,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: his four-year-old daughter Bella walked into the room, saw her
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: mother limp, and asked, Mommy don't feel good.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: It's just heartbreaking.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: He then wrapped his wife's body in a bed sheet,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: put her in the back of his work truck, and
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: drove his two living, breathing daughters out to the desolate
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: oil site where he systematically smothered them with a blanket
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and dropped them into the tanks.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: What is truly haunting is that when the investigators asked
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: him why he did it, even then, locked in a
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: concrete cell for the rest of his life, he tried
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: to deflect responsibility.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: He still couldn't own it.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: No. He told them, it was just like something else
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: was controlling me that day. Even after admitting to the cold-blooded,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: methodical reality of the murders, his psyche still struggled to
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: take absolute ownership.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Of the act. That ego preservation never stops.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: The interrogation room broke his initial baseline lie and the
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: investigator's theme broke his silence. But his own psychology continued
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: to try and shield him from the total crushing weight
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: of his actions.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Chris Watts desperately tried to rationalize his crimes to save
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: his ego, right to the bitter end. But our final
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: case completely flips that script.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: It goes in a completely different direction.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: We've seen denial. We've seen performance. We've seen cognitive dissonance.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: And we've seen desperate rationalization. But what happens when a
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: suspect completely abandons any attempt at rationalization?
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: When there is no ego left to protect.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: What happens when a confession is so casual, so gruesome,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: and so entirely detached from reality that it forces the
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: legal system to grapple with the very definition of human sanity?
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: If we connect this to the bigger picture, we are
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: looking at the case of Taylor Shabizness.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: This one is intense. It is.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: This occurred in February of 2022 in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Shabiznes,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: who was 25 at the time, was brought in for
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: questioning regarding the death of her lover, a man named
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Shad Therian.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: And I need to warn anyone listening right now, the
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: facts of this case are exceptionally gruesome.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Extremely graphic.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Under the heavy influence of methamphetamine and prescription drugs, Shabiznes
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: strangled Therian with a metal chain during a sexual encounter
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: in the basement of his mother's home.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: And it gets worse.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: But the nightmare didn't end with a murder. She then
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: sexually abused his dead body and proceeded to systematically dismember
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: him with a bread knife. The crime was discovered when
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Therian's mother went into the basement and found her son's
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: severed head in a bucket under a towel.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: It's just unimaginable horror. When police place Shabiznas in the
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: interrogation room, she's wearing a yellow jail jumpsuit and her
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: demeanor is nothing short of astonishing to trained investigators.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Because she doesn't act like any Of the others.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Right. There is absolutely no denial, like we saw with
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Lee Rodarte. There is no weeping performance of grief like
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Courtney Clenny, no frantic ego preservation like Sarah Boone, and
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: no attempt to frame a lesser, more acceptable narrative like
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Chris Watts.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: She just doesn't care.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: She is eerily, terrifyingly casual.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: The transcript of this interrogation reads like something out of
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: a psychological horror film. She sits there and openly admits
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: to the strangulations. looking at the detectives and casually saying
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: she went a little crazy.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: A little crazy.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: She describes blacking out from the meth, waking up to
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: find him purple and coughing blood. And then she tells
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: them she started cutting up his body almost right away.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: And then she complains about it.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Yes, she actually has the audacity to complain to the
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: homicide detectives about the physical exertion of the process. She
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: says she was getting pissed off at the dismemberment process
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: because the knife was dull. And that she got lazy
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: and ended up leaving a foot or leg in her
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: van because she didn't want to carry it.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: She got lazy.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: She even casually confirms she left a head in a
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: black bucket by the stairs. As if confirming she took
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: out the trash.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: And perhaps the most chilling moment in the entire recording
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: is when the dynamic shifts and she turns the tables
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: to ask the police questions.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Oh man, yeah.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: She casually asks them, You guys find all the parts here?
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: As if they are discussing misplaced car keys or items
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: on a grocery list.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: It's just so bizarre.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: She mentions putting various body parts in separate plastic Walmart bags.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: The investigators, to their immense credit and training, remain completely
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: calm and neutral.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Which is hard to do.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: Very hard. They just let her detail every horrific act
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: without expressing shock, which keeps her talking.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: Naturally, when this case inevitably goes to trial, her defense
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: team enters a plea of not guilty by reason of insanity.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Which is to be expected.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: And on the surface, you can understand why. I mean,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: if a woman casually talks about putting a human head
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: in a bucket, transporting limbs in a Walmart bag, and
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: complains she got lazy dismembering a body because the knife
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: wasn't sharp enough, how on earth does a jury decide
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: she is legally sane?
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: It sounds completely insane to the average person.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Because it only took the jury one single hour of
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: deliberation to reject the insanity defense and find her guilty
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: of first-degree intentional homicide. mulating a corpse, and third-degree sexual assault.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: She received life in prison without parole.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: I don't buy that verdict at face value. How can
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: a jury listen to a woman complain about getting lazy
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: with dismemberment and conclude she's operating with a sane brain?
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Where is the line between meth-induced psychosis and legal sanity?
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: It is a deeply complex question that fundamentally comes down
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: to the strict legal definition of insanity, which has a
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: long historical precedent.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Right. The law sees it differently than doctors do. Exactly.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: The modern legal threshold for insanity in many jurisdictions, including Wisconsin,
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: is derived from the American Law Institute test, which evolved
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: from the 19th century McNaughton rule.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Naughton rule.
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: The law explicitly states that legal insanity is not about
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: whether the crime is bizarre, macabre, or deeply disturbing. Society
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: often conflates crazy behavior or grotesque acts with legal insanity.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: We mix them up.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: But they are not the same thing at all. In Wisconsin,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: the legal test is a two-pronged question.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, what are the prongs?
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Did the defendant, at the time of the crime, suffer
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: from a mental disease or defect? And if so, did
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: that defect cause them to lack the substantial capacity to
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: either appreciate the wrongfulness of their conduct or conform their
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: conduct to the requirements of law?
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, so map that onto her actual confession. If she
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: is high on meth and acting like a butcher... Where
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: are the telltale signs that she actually understood what she
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: was doing was legally wrong?
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: The signs are woven throughout her bizarre nonchalance, if you
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: know what to listen for.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Really? Like what?
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: First, her own language betrays her awareness. She admits she
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: went a little crazy and went a little too far.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: That phrasing, however casually delivered, indicates a clear recognition of
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: a boundary that was crossed.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, I see.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: Second, she noted that he was turning purple and checked
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: to see if he was good. This shows she understood
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: the physical, lethal consequences of the strangulation.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: She knew she was killing him.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Exactly. But the absolute most damning evidence of her legal sanity,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: the thing that defeats the insanity plea, is what she
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: did after he was dead.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: What did she do?
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: She attempted to hide the body parts. She put them
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: in discreet bags, hid them in the basement, and put
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: some in her van to transport them away from the scene. Ah.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Because if you were truly, profoundly insane, if you genuinely
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: don't know that dismembering a person is a crime, you
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: wouldn't feel the need to hide the pieces.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: You'd leave them on the front lawn. Right. Exactly. The
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: act of hiding evidence demonstrates a legal concept known as
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: consciousness of guilt. It shows that her brain, even while
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: heavily fueled by methamphetamine and detached from human empathy, recognized
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: that if she was caught with these items, she would
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: be in trouble with the law.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Furthermore, during the interrogation, when the detective asked her point
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: blank what should happen to someone who does something like this,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: she replied, they obviously get prison time.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: So she knew the penalty.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: She fully understood the societal and legal consequences of her actions.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: Her demeanor was completely detached from human emotion, and she
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: is clearly a deeply disturbed individual. But under the strict
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: clinical parameters of the law, her actions proved she appreciated
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: the wrongfulness of her acts.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: And that's all the jury needs.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: That is why the jury rejected the insanity plea so quickly.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: She wasn't legally insane. She was just incredibly callous.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: That fundamentally shifts how I understand this. We've looked at
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: five completely distinct paths a human mind can take when
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: trapped in that claustrophobic beige room.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Five very different reactions.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: We started with Lee Rodarte Jr., who arrogantly thought a
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: fabricated green truck could outsmart a modern surveillance state. only
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: to have his cognitive processing load completely collapse. We saw
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Courtney Klenny try to substitute a theatrical performance of grief
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: for the actual immutable physics of a knife wound.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: We witnessed the terrifying power of extreme ego preservation with
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: Sarah Boone, who stared at a high-definition video of her
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: own cruelty and claimed she was too much of a
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: straight-A student to have possibly done it.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Choosing delusion over reality.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Exactly. We analyzed the strategic brilliance of the investigator who
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: gave Chris Watts a psychological out, weaponizing his cowardice and
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: allowing him to confess to a lesser nightmare before the
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: true horror of his actions was revealed.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: And finally, we explored the terrifying apathy of Taylor Chavisness.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: Proving that a chillingly casual confession and grotesque behavior do
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: not equate to legal insanity if the suspect still demonstrates
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: the presence of mind to try and hide the evidence.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: It seems like the common thread connecting all these disparate
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: cases is that the baseline lie, whatever form it takes,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: a meticulously fake story, hyperventilating fake tears, absolute self-delusion, or
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: blame-shifting deflection, almost always shatters under the weight of reality.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: It's just a matter of time.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: The truth inevitably fights its way out, whether it's dragged
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: into the light by forensic physical evidence, digital footprints pulled
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: from a cloud server, or the sheer unbearable psychological weight
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: of a guilty conscience, looking for an escape valve.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: And while these specific cases are extreme, macabre, and deeply
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: tragic examples of criminal behavior, the underlying psychological mechanisms we've
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: discussed are universally human.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Right. We all do this on a smaller scale.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: The way our brains instinctively try to shift blame when
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: we make a mistake, the exhausting lengths we will go
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: to protect our fragile egos and curated self-images, how our
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: body language and nervous systems react when we aren't being truthful.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: It's all connected.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: These are phenomena we all experience in our daily lives,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: in far less dramatic circumstances. The interrogation room simply amplifies
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: these everyday psychological defenses to an absolute extreme, putting human
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: nature under a microscope with the highest possible stakes.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: It really makes you think about the trail we leave
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: behind every single day. Which brings me back to that camera,
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: tucked in the corner of the ceiling in the interrogation room.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: The one that's always rolling.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: We leave a trail of data everywhere we go now.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: From the security cameras on our streets, to the GPS
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: trackers and high-definition video cameras sitting in our pockets, to
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: the biometric data on our smartwatches.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: We're always being recorded in some way.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: We are constantly generating a massive digital objective reality that
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: exists entirely outside of the subjective stories we tell ourselves
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: about who we are and what we do.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: The modern investigator doesn't just rely on breaking a suspect's
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: will through pressure. They rely on breaking their internal narrative
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: with an avalanche of undeniable data.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: So I want to leave you with this lingering thought
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: to mull over. In a hyper-connected world where every movement
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: is recorded, every text message is saved on a server,
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: and every location is tracked down to the meter, is
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: it actually possible for a human being to keep a
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: dark secret anymore? Or are we all just waiting for
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: the tape to be played back to us?