Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BRIDE STABBED 20 TIMES RULED SUICIDE, PARENTS FORCE CASE REOPENED!

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BRIDE STABBED 20 TIMES RULED SUICIDE, PARENTS FORCE CASE REOPENED! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a beautiful young bride to
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: be stabbed twenty times, including in the back, the back
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  Speaker 1: of the head, the back of the neck. Ruled suicide. Tonight,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: her parents force this case to be reopened. I'm Nancy Grace.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 2: A shunking admission by the pathologist, and the stabbing death
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  Speaker 2: of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg. The case to be reopened.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: It all starts here. Listen my part, she answers on the.
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  Speaker 3: Floor with flood everywhere. But oh no, I don't know.
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  Speaker 4: I can tell you.
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  Speaker 3: Does you have to calm yourself down in order to
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  Speaker 3: get you somehow?
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  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking
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  Speaker 4: at her right now. I can't see anything.
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  Speaker 3: There's nothing broken.
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  Speaker 4: She's leaped, Ellie.
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  Speaker 3: You don't know where she's bleeding from from.
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  Speaker 4: I think her head everywhere everywhere.
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  Speaker 3: She might have fallen, you know what happened. She may
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  Speaker 3: have slipped his blood on the on the table.
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  Speaker 4: Her piece is a little purple.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, hold off.
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  Speaker 3: For rest for her on the phone.
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  Speaker 1: May have fallen, may have fallen on a knife twenty times,
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  Speaker 1: may have slipped straight out to very special guests joining
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  Speaker 1: us tonight. Ellen's parents that I now call friends, Josh
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  Speaker 1: and Sandy Greenberg. Do you know how much I hate
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: play the nine one one call, especially when you're with me.
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  Speaker 1: Every time I play it, Sandy, I literally get chilled.
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  Speaker 1: She did not fall on a knife twenty times.
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  Speaker 5: The phone call is chilling every time I hear It's
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  Speaker 5: the way I heard it in the very beginning.
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  Speaker 6: Let's look at what he sees when he walks in.
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  Speaker 6: You're gonna tell me he didn't see a five or
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  Speaker 6: six inch handle of a knife stuck in my daughter's
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  Speaker 6: chest with her left hand on it, wrapped around a
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  Speaker 6: white towel that completely was unobservable from walking in.
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  Speaker 1: Come on, the whole thing is so fuldy. I'm glad
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  Speaker 1: you mentioned that white towel. Josh and I don't want
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  Speaker 1: to go to Inside Baseball because the three of us, well,
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: everybody on the panel knows these facts so well. But
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  Speaker 1: for those of you just joining us tonight, Ellen, I
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  Speaker 1: feel like I know Ellen so well now, but I
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  Speaker 1: only met her in death. Ellen, sharing a luxury apartment
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  Speaker 1: with her fiance Sam Goldberg, is found brutally stabbed and
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  Speaker 1: some of us think strangled as well in the short
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  Speaker 1: space of time when her fiance left the apartment to
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  Speaker 1: go in the building's gym to work out. When Josh
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  Speaker 1: that these are Ellen's parents, okay, and you may think
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  Speaker 1: sometimes they seem really calm, you know what they are.
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  Speaker 1: They're exhausted. They've been fighting this fight for years. They've
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  Speaker 1: spent all their energy, all their time, all their savings,
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  Speaker 1: everything trying to prove Ellen did not commit suicide, and
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  Speaker 1: in the last days joining me to explain. John Lucy,
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  Speaker 1: Journalistpenlive dot com and Patrioteese of Harrisburg specializing in true crime,
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  Speaker 1: author of Kill the Story. John, I can't believe we're
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  Speaker 1: right here, right now, We've actually had good news after
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  Speaker 1: all these years of this ridiculous Actually it's not ridiculous.
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  Speaker 1: It's a cover up, a cover up about Ellen's murder.
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  Speaker 1: Tell everyone what has just happened.
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  Speaker 7: Well, that allegation of a cover up was about to
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  Speaker 7: go to a jury trial in Philadelphia, but in a
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  Speaker 7: stunning reversal, the pathologist Marlon Osborne, who conducted Ellen's autopsy
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  Speaker 7: in twenty eleven and have initially ruled it a homicide,
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  Speaker 7: by twenty knife wounds and then about two months later,
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  Speaker 7: changed it to suicide under pressure from detectives who, according
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  Speaker 7: to the Greenberg lawyers, botched the case from the very beginning,
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  Speaker 7: losing basically all the evidence that was at the scene.
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  Speaker 7: Pressured him to change it to suicide, and he did
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  Speaker 7: on April fourth, twenty eleven. That's where we've been for
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  Speaker 7: fourteen years until earlier this week, when Osborne, in a
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  Speaker 7: stunning reversal, said he was wrong, he would classify the
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  Speaker 7: case as something other than suicide. And he listened to.
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  Speaker 1: John, John, everything you're saying is correct, but you got
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  Speaker 1: me drink from the fire hydrant. It's just too much
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  Speaker 1: to take in right now. So hold on, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to dissect everything you said, and everybody on the panel
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  Speaker 1: please jump in. Let me go straight out to Tom Brennan,
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  Speaker 1: longtime family friend who took on this case. Hey Tom,
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  Speaker 1: a congratulations. I almost hate to say it because I
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: don't want to jinx the case going forward, but it's
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  Speaker 1: stunning to me how now, after fourteen years of the
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  Speaker 1: parents fighting, they just sold their house. They put all
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  Speaker 1: their money, all their time, all their energy into clearing
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  Speaker 1: Ellen's name. Thats all they've got left. This is their
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  Speaker 1: only child, right, and they know she did not commit suicide.
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  Speaker 1: But the fact that's taken Osborne fourteen years to say,
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  Speaker 1: oh yeah, I screwed up. But listen to this Tom.
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  Speaker 8: In a public statement, doctor Marlon Osborne said, after reviewing
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  Speaker 8: additional information in the Ellen Greenberg case file obtained from
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  Speaker 8: the Philadelphia Police Department, as well as a consult with
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  Speaker 8: doctor Lucy Rourke Adams, a pediatric neuropathologist, he decided to
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  Speaker 8: make the change in his verification. Osborne writes that he
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  Speaker 8: is now unsure of the series of events that happened
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  Speaker 8: that day. He also says he doesn't know whether the
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  Speaker 8: door was forced open as reported, whether Ellen's body was
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  Speaker 8: moved by someone else inside the apartment with her at
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  Speaker 8: or near the time of her death, and the findings
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  Speaker 8: of Lindsey Emery, MD from her neuropathological evaluation of Ellen's
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  Speaker 8: cervical segment sample.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot to take in. Let's go back
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  Speaker 1: to the nine to one one call. Listen forty six
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  Speaker 1: one splat Rock Road.
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  Speaker 4: Please Herry, Yes, Oh, I just I went downstairs go
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  Speaker 4: work out. I came back up the door, the lash
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  Speaker 4: my inside. She wasn't she wasn't answering. So after about
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  Speaker 4: a half hour, I decided to break it down. I
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  Speaker 4: see her now, it's on the floor before she's not
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  Speaker 4: she's not responding.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, breath, I can.
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  Speaker 9: I calm down? How I was going away?
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  Speaker 4: I don't see her moving.
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  Speaker 1: No, she was not on her back joining me. Professor Forensics,
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  Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Fate, death
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  Speaker 1: investigator with over a thousand death investigations under his belt,
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  Speaker 1: star of a hit podcast, Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan.
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  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, you and I mostly you did a complete
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  Speaker 1: re enact of what happened to Ellen. Okay, she was
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  Speaker 1: propped up. Yes, her rear end was on the floor
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  Speaker 1: in the kitchen, but she was propped up in a
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  Speaker 1: way against the kitchen cabinet, right.
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  Speaker 10: So yeah, Nancy, you know, back when we did the
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  Speaker 10: recreation of Ellen's apartment, one of the things that we
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  Speaker 10: made note of at that particular time, and this is
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  Speaker 10: it's quite glaring as well, is that she had essentially
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  Speaker 10: a streak of blood that was Remember we have to
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  Speaker 10: frame this and say that she was in a seated
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  Speaker 10: upright position. She had a streak of blood that was
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  Speaker 10: literally running parallel to her shoulders. Viscous fluid or any
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  Speaker 10: kind of fluid doesn't work that way per the laws
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  Speaker 10: of gravity. It flows downward. So at some point tom
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  Speaker 10: she was seated or moved upwards, probably from a position
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  Speaker 10: where she was laying down, and the blood had streaked
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  Speaker 10: from her mouth at that point in time and was
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  Speaker 10: running parallel to her shoulders. And of course something doesn't
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  Speaker 10: fit with that. And I think that any investigator that's
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  Speaker 10: working at the scene, particularly observing a body worth their salt,
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  Speaker 10: would make note of that. Obviously at the beginning, that
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  Speaker 10: would be a huge red flag. You would have to say, well,
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  Speaker 10: how in the world could the blood flow be in
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  Speaker 10: that position relative to the position we're observing her in now.
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  Speaker 1: And of course, hey, Joe Scott, yes, Joe Scott, I
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  Speaker 1: love the way that John Lucy put it. He refers
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  Speaker 1: to it as the wrong way blood. Listen, we call
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  Speaker 1: that the wrong way blood.
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  Speaker 7: And it's one of the many anomalies at the crime
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  Speaker 7: scene that was treated as a suicide scene the night
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  Speaker 7: of her death and thus never preserved and never processed.
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  Speaker 7: That is the original sin of this whole case.
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  Speaker 1: When we're talking about wrong way blood? Okay? Now, why
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  Speaker 1: is jo Scott talking about wrong way blood? When I
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  Speaker 1: asked him, wasn't Ellen sitting up propped back against sitting
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  Speaker 1: on the floor, propped back against sketching cabinets? Okay? He
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  Speaker 1: immediately in his mind he's three steps ahead of everybody else,
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  Speaker 1: went to the wrong way blood. What does that mean?
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  Speaker 1: That means that the blood on Ellen, she's sitting up,
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  Speaker 1: is going like this? Okay? I believe in gravity. I
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  Speaker 1: know about saraizing Newton. So why is the blood not
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  Speaker 1: only going the wrong way across her face for instance,
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  Speaker 1: knows to ear if it doesn't match the way her
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  Speaker 1: body is found? And not only that the blood was dried? Okay?
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  Speaker 1: So how long? John Lucy Hey, let me go to
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  Speaker 1: bene nowur joining us. Beney and I have researched this
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  Speaker 1: case with the help of so many people, including Sandy
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  Speaker 1: and Josh, and we went through every single report, every
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  Speaker 1: single document. Beney now a co author with me of
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  Speaker 1: what happened to Ellen and an American miscarriage of Justice PS.
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  Speaker 1: All of the proceeds are going to National Center Missing
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  Speaker 1: Children be Nay, how long approximately do we think Goldberg,
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  Speaker 1: the fiance was gone from the apartment in the workout room.
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  Speaker 11: We don't think it was even an hour. We don't
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  Speaker 11: believe it possibly could have been two hours. We don't
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  Speaker 11: believe it was even an hour.
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  Speaker 1: Joining us in addition to Josh and Sandy Greenberg been
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  Speaker 1: an hour, Joscott Morgan, John Lucy to Tom Brennan, what
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  Speaker 1: do you think, Tom? How long was Goldberg out of
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  Speaker 1: the apartment to go to the workout room? And Tom,
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  Speaker 1: I knew you were going to say that, but I
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  Speaker 1: don't know this. Why do you say that? Why do
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  Speaker 1: you think it was forty five minutes?
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  Speaker 12: Because we could observe him on the security cameras in
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  Speaker 12: the ability where he walked down the hall to go
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  Speaker 12: to the gym, and when he came out out of
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  Speaker 12: the gym. It's on the video taps.
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  Speaker 2: The stabbing death of twenty having year old Philly teacher
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  Speaker 2: to be reinvestigated as the medical examiner says he was wrong.
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  Speaker 2: The family fights for years to get her suicide ruling changed.
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  Speaker 1: It all started here.
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  Speaker 3: Listen, Okay, you know how I got Okay, I'm gonna
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  Speaker 3: tell you what to do.
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  Speaker 11: Okay until they get here.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, Well with me. Over the fall, I have
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  Speaker 4: you right?
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  Speaker 3: Okay, so you know, fight on her bank, bear her set.
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  Speaker 1: Gang over for sure.
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  Speaker 9: Okay, you'll be out by her side.
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  Speaker 4: Merchant. Listen, you can't freak out. Okay, I'm sorry. After
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  Speaker 4: trying to her shirt will come off as a different Okay.
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  Speaker 4: She stands herself where she's so nice? Oh no, her
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  Speaker 4: narves sticking out? What because its sticking out of her?
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  Speaker 12: He stands herself.
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  Speaker 4: I guess you're going it. I don't know. Okay, well,
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  Speaker 4: don't touch it.
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  Speaker 1: Will a jury ever here these nine one one calls. Well,
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  Speaker 1: as of now, they're one inch closer to hearing them
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  Speaker 1: in the last days. A stunning turn of events after
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  Speaker 1: a fourteen year battle. Imagine going through the devastation of
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  Speaker 1: learning your daughter is dead in the midst of planning
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  Speaker 1: a wedding a guy she truly believed she loved he
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  Speaker 1: was mister big Right. Then to find out it was suicide.
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  Speaker 1: Then in the middle of her memorial at the synagogue,
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  Speaker 1: to find out no, it's not suicide, it's homicide. Only
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  Speaker 1: to have the medical examiner go at a closed door
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  Speaker 1: meeting with police and district attorneys who I might add
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  Speaker 1: one of them as ex She's got an immunity in
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  Speaker 1: this so she can't be prosecuted. That stinks to how
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  Speaker 1: I haven't and have it now ruled back to suicide.
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  Speaker 1: To Sandy and Josh Greenberg, who have been through so much,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, hell on Earth, you can find them at
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  Speaker 1: Justice for Ellen, Sandy. Why is it the settlement happens
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  Speaker 1: as you're about to strike a jury after fourteen years
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  Speaker 1: and bring all these people, including the medical examiner, the police,
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  Speaker 1: others in to tell what happened in that closed door meeting,
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  Speaker 1: and then suddenly, oh no, no, no, no no, they
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  Speaker 1: don't want that, and there's a settlement at the midnight hour,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: the twelfth hour, the last minute, as the jury is
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: literally about to be picked. What happens, Sandy the city.
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  Speaker 5: Back together. I guess that they were not prepared to
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  Speaker 5: really to go to trial. They were hoping that they
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: would all have high immunity and everyone would get off.
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  Speaker 5: We didn't back down, and they made a proposal, which
• 16:14
  Speaker 5: Joe will explain to Josh and I. It took a little.
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  Speaker 1: Explanation, explanation.
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  Speaker 5: It still hasn't completely sunk in, but at least we've
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  Speaker 5: turned the corner.
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  Speaker 6: I don't see why the city has to do another
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  Speaker 6: examination on a body that's been in the ground for
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  Speaker 6: almost fifteen years.
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  Speaker 7: But we had to agree to that.
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  Speaker 6: We had agreed that there are really four options that
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  Speaker 6: the medical examiner come up with, two of which are
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  Speaker 6: homicide and two of which your homicide and unexplained, and
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  Speaker 6: the third one accidental and suicide. We know it's not accidental,
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  Speaker 6: we know it's not suicide, less homicide and undetermined. That's
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  Speaker 6: what the city is going to come up with. Probably,
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  Speaker 6: I can't say for sure anything. I will say that
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  Speaker 6: I still don't trust the city at all.
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  Speaker 1: Well for good reason, Josh, for good reason, you know,
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  Speaker 1: trust the city. So you're telling me, Josh, that Ellen
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  Speaker 1: is going to be exhumed, if I have anything to
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: say about it, it said.
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  Speaker 5: The city spokesperson said that the medical examiner will go
• 17:33
  Speaker 5: through her autopsy file. Big deal cut that out last night.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: I saw that. You know, I'm very curious because Sandy
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  Speaker 1: and Josh, if Benay and I could, with the help
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  Speaker 1: of Joe Scott Morgan and doctor Dupree and others, if
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: we could go through the file and find all of
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: these problems and inconsistencies and bruises and bruises to her
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: strat muscles indicating she was strangled, defensive bruises on her body,
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  Speaker 1: so much evidence that she was killed. If we can
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  Speaker 1: find that, I'd be very surprised if someone else can't
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  Speaker 1: find it. Guys, joining me right now is a very
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: special guest, and I'll tell you why. Guy DeAndrea is
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: with us. He's a now a trial lawyer with Laffy Bouci, DeAndrea,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Reich and Ryan. But for my purpose it's so important.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: He was in the DA's office at the time they
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: were looking at Ellen's case, and somehow, after the medical
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: examiner said oh, yeah, Ellen was murdered, there was a
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  Speaker 1: closed door meeting with a member of the DA's office
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  Speaker 1: and police. That assistant DA has been given immunity in this.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: That stinks, guys. Why would a prosecutor who is charged
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: with upholding the law and always doing the right thing
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  Speaker 1: have to have immunity for what she said or did
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: in this closed door meeting. Guy to Andrea, you took
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: a big red flag at the time, and I was
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: waving it back and forth. I think this is a homicide.
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  Speaker 1: What happened? Guy, and Who was the elected DA at
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: that time?
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  Speaker 13: Yes, Nancy, the elected DA at the time with Seth Williams,
• 19:22
  Speaker 13: I did raise the red flag after doing a thorough
• 19:24
  Speaker 13: and full investigation that this from my perspective, not based
• 19:27
  Speaker 13: on opinion, but based on evidence that you went over
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  Speaker 13: copiously today, that she was killed by homicide, period, end
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  Speaker 13: of story. And I proposed that, and the conclusion that
• 19:39
  Speaker 13: was reached is that it would be changed to homicide
• 19:44
  Speaker 13: after the neuropathologist, the independent one that was hired, came
• 19:48
  Speaker 13: up with their conclusions. So long as the conclusions were
• 19:51
  Speaker 13: that her spinal column was pierced, and in fact it was,
• 19:55
  Speaker 13: I had left the office, so I thought, as of
• 19:57
  Speaker 13: twenty seventeen, Nancy, this would be changed. And here we
• 20:01
  Speaker 13: are in twenty twenty five. As you said on the
• 20:04
  Speaker 13: twelfth hour, they finally caved.
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  Speaker 2: I guess a little bit.
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  Speaker 1: We'll call it, but there's now going to be an
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: investigation at least, Guy.
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  Speaker 13: Well, an investigation fourteen years later that showed took place
• 20:15
  Speaker 13: played frankly in twenty eleven, if not in twenty eleven,
• 20:19
  Speaker 13: certainly in twenty fifteen, sixteen and seventeen when I was
• 20:22
  Speaker 13: looking at it saying this isn't right, look at the evidence.
• 20:25
  Speaker 13: How are we making this conclusion.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy grace A joining me is renowned
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: psychologist joining us out of Manhattan TV radio trauma expert.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: You can find her at Karenstark dot com. That's Karen
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: with a Sea if you're looking for her. Karen Starr,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: you and I have discussed the old old story of
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: David and Goliath. Right here you have. It's almost making
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  Speaker 1: me tear up. Karen. You've got Josh and Sandy. You've
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: got Padrasa and Brennan who've been working for free now forever,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: trying to attack this case.
• 21:13
  Speaker 12: And this.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Couple, Sandy and Josh are taking on not only the
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: city of Philadelphia, not only the District Attorney's office, but
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: the then ag now Governor Josh Shapiro, who had a
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: chance to open this and did not. I mean, it's
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: got to be so overwhelming, Karen start and to have
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: to live with.
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  Speaker 14: Them for so many years, Dancy knowing that this is
• 21:45
  Speaker 14: your one and only child, and that there is no
• 21:48
  Speaker 14: way that she could commit suicide, that she would do that,
• 21:52
  Speaker 14: it doesn't even make any sense. Really, don't stab themselves.
• 21:57
  Speaker 14: Most of the time that I take kills or some
• 22:00
  Speaker 14: thing that was not physicult and how could she do
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  Speaker 14: that to herself? And they had to live with this.
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  Speaker 14: The best thing that ever could have happened is that
• 22:08
  Speaker 14: they didn't give up, that they had purposed, They focused,
• 22:13
  Speaker 14: and they were able to do something eventually, because that
• 22:17
  Speaker 14: kind of grief, it just doesn't go away. It's the
• 22:20
  Speaker 14: worst thing you could possibly think of. Right your child
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  Speaker 14: is dead.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: A shocking admission by the pathologist and the stabbing death
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: of Philly teacher Ellen Greenberg the case to be reopened.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I'm.
• 22:39
  Speaker 14: Going to tell you what to do.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: Okay, you'll her five.
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: You can't freak out.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: I'm trying to Her shirt won't come off into a zipper.
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: She stabs herself.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Wait she fell knife?
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: Oh no, her nice checking out, a nice sticking out
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: of her. Hunter does he stands her south? I guess so.
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: I don't know where she's telling it. I don't know.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, don't check it. And that is where the
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: specter of suicide first rears its ugly head, right there
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: in the fiance's nine to one one call. She stabbed herself,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: she fell on a knife. Joining me. In addition to
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Ellen's parents, a guy who has been on this case
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: from the very beginning, and I stuck with it. John
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Lucy is with me Panlive dot Com, Patriot News, Harrisburg,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: also specialty true crime author Kill the story John Early.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: When we first started talking tonight, Josh Ellen's dad brought
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: up a pristine white dish trag that Ellen was holding
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: in one hand, no blood on it at all. Now,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: let me understand this, John. So there's a blizzard that day.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: She leaves her little elementary school students early. Then she
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: calls all the parents to make sure they get home.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: She stops geffer gas, gets her car ready in case
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: she needs to go somewhere in the snow, comes home
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: and starts making I guess lunch or dinner, a big
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: fruit salad, and in the middle of the fruit salad,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: she goes, oh, to hell with this, I'm gonna kill myself.
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: That's the theory, right, And yeah, that's the theory.
• 24:50
  Speaker 7: And that was the operating assumption of the people who
• 24:54
  Speaker 7: responded on that snowy night. The detectives and there was
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: a representative from the emy's office. They bought into that
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: narrative of suicide. And because of that, there was no
• 25:05
  Speaker 7: forensics the crime scene. The scene was not preserved as
• 25:09
  Speaker 7: a crime scene because suicide is not a crime. It
• 25:12
  Speaker 7: is a crime, but it's against yourself. So that's why
• 25:16
  Speaker 7: this case never went anywhere. Even after Osborne rolled it
• 25:20
  Speaker 7: a homicide. The detectives went back a couple of days
• 25:24
  Speaker 7: later with a search warrant and a forensics team, but
• 25:27
  Speaker 7: the place had been sanitized, the entire apartment.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: There was nothing left. There was nothing to investigate.
• 25:34
  Speaker 7: And you know, the one thing about this case where
• 25:37
  Speaker 7: we're at now, Yes, theme is going to look at
• 25:39
  Speaker 7: the manner of death one more time, but also, I mean,
• 25:44
  Speaker 7: there's a homicide that has yet to be solved here
• 25:47
  Speaker 7: that is now, who's going to do it? The FBI,
• 25:52
  Speaker 7: the AG's office, the county district attorney where it resides,
• 25:56
  Speaker 7: and is currently an evry No no no, no, no.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: No, no, no Padraza help me out here. We cannot
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: have the Pennsylvania Attorney General's office take this because they've
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: got too many connections to the then AG Shapiro. Okay,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: that can't be typically everybody when we're talking about the
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: AG that's like the top cop within the state. There's
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: also an AG AG for the US government, right for
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: the United States, Every state has an attorney general. So
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: if you think your local DA is screwing up, is falsifying,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: is not doing their job, you take it up to
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: the top cop, the attorney general. Right the Attorney General
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: at the time of this incident was Shapiro. He's now
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: the government. It's got to be the Fed's Pa Draza.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: There are too many connections with the AG's office, and
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I'm not impugning integrity on any of them. It's just
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: like I say, Hey, Jackie, I want you to investigate me.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: We're friends, we work together every day. That has the
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: stink of impropriety. Can't do that, well, that's agreed, Nancy.
• 27:07
  Speaker 15: And ideally what we like to do is to have
• 27:09
  Speaker 15: a special prosecutor, especially assigned to the case given its history,
• 27:13
  Speaker 15: one who is acceptable not only to the family, but
• 27:16
  Speaker 15: also has a reputable reputation as a prosecutor within the
• 27:21
  Speaker 15: resources of the powers of grand jury, etc.
• 27:24
  Speaker 13: At their disposal to go forward.
• 27:26
  Speaker 16: Now, whether that is a federal prosecutor or a state prosecutor,
• 27:31
  Speaker 16: we don't really fancy either one as long as they're objective, confident,
• 27:36
  Speaker 16: and committee.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: But as Brennan, Pedraza and I are discussing, if this
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: case is ruled homicide, which it should be. That opens
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: this up to a criminal investigation if the district attorney
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: has the backbone to do it, and if not, maybe
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: an independent secuter will. Now that leads me to the
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: specter of a cover up. Listen.
• 28:08
  Speaker 17: The second suit, which was filed in twenty twenty two
• 28:10
  Speaker 17: and slated for trial this week at City Hall, alleged
• 28:13
  Speaker 17: the investigation into Greenberg's death was embarrassingly botched and resulted
• 28:18
  Speaker 17: in a cover up by Philadelphia authorities. It sought monetary
• 28:22
  Speaker 17: damages for intentional infliction of emotional distress against several city
• 28:26
  Speaker 17: employees who were involved in the investigation.
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: Here with her, Yeah, we're the only one here. No, no,
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: I went downstairs to work out, and when I came
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: back off the door with a lash, you know it
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: wasn't you know. We walked from the inside and I'm
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: yelling no, no, no, no, no, no break in no
• 28:55
  Speaker 4: no found of breaking. It will be when you get
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: you're glad to break the flash up. Okay, right, Oh
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: my god, oh my god, all right.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: To beney now, are joining me co author with me
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: of what happened to Ellen? All pre proceeds going to
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: national Center Missing Exploited Children Beney. Also, mister Goldberg stated
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: that he asked the front desk security to come with
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: him when he knocked down the door, and that he
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: had a witness the front desk security person. Correct, yes, No,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: that's correct. Okay. Isn't it true that we located the
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: front desk security person and that security person signed an
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: f David? And what did the security person say? In
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: the affidavit?
• 30:03
  Speaker 11: He said he was asked to accompany Sam and told
• 30:09
  Speaker 11: him absolutely he could not, that he could not leave
• 30:12
  Speaker 11: his desk, and that he absolutely did not accompany him.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: He was not at that door.
• 30:18
  Speaker 11: He stated that over and over and over again in
• 30:21
  Speaker 11: that affidavit.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Another interesting theory emerging. Listen.
• 30:25
  Speaker 8: Doctor Greenberg is walking through the courthouse and tells some
• 30:28
  Speaker 8: reporters Ellen, considering she was found with twenty knife wounds
• 30:31
  Speaker 8: in her head, neck, back in chest, Doctor Greenberg says
• 30:35
  Speaker 8: he thinks his daughter was strangled. Forensic pathologist doctor Wayne
• 30:39
  Speaker 8: k Ross is commissioned by the Greenbergs to review the case.
• 30:42
  Speaker 8: Doctor Ross says there's evidence of strangulation. Ross says there's
• 30:46
  Speaker 8: a mark over the front of the neck and in
• 30:48
  Speaker 8: the strap muscles over the right side of the neck,
• 30:50
  Speaker 8: claiming these patterns are compatible with a manual strangulation. Ross
• 30:53
  Speaker 8: also points out the number of bruises over different parts
• 30:56
  Speaker 8: of Greenberg's body are consistent with the repeated beatings. He writes,
• 30:59
  Speaker 8: it is my opinion that the investigating authority should pursue
• 31:02
  Speaker 8: this case as a homicide. It is further my opinion,
• 31:05
  Speaker 8: to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, that the manner
• 31:08
  Speaker 8: of death is a homicide. The scene findings were indicative
• 31:11
  Speaker 8: of a homicide.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace to Joseph Scott Morgan joined me,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: death investigator at Professor Forensis Jacksonville State University. Of course,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I'm just a lay person, right. But she bled If
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: she were already dead from strangulation, I don't think that
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: would have been copious amounts of blood. Number one, Number two,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: There is evidence of strangulation, particularly specifically, the bruising is
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: sub under the skin. Bruising under strap muscles is clearly strangling.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: She doesn't have to be strangled dead to undergo strangulation
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: and then a stabbing. Why can't both be true?
• 32:03
  Speaker 10: I'm going to say something very plainly here, Nancy and
• 32:06
  Speaker 10: I don't care who hears it or what they think
• 32:08
  Speaker 10: about it. This has all of the earmarks of what
• 32:12
  Speaker 10: we refer to as overkill. Anytime you have an intimate
• 32:15
  Speaker 10: event like this, and when I say intimate, I'm talking
• 32:17
  Speaker 10: about from a homicide perspective where you have twenty two
• 32:23
  Speaker 10: zero stab wounds to an individual. These are things that
• 32:27
  Speaker 10: we see, Nancy, when there is a tremendous amount of passion.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Over all of my.
• 32:32
  Speaker 10: Career working at two major corner and medical examiner's offices,
• 32:37
  Speaker 10: I have never seen, never seen a case where I've
• 32:41
  Speaker 10: had twenty self inflicted stab wounds to an individual. And
• 32:47
  Speaker 10: then we come to these anomalies on the neck that
• 32:50
  Speaker 10: Josh has pointed out, you had external and right there
• 32:55
  Speaker 10: you can see it very plainly. You have an external
• 32:59
  Speaker 10: manifestation of these anomalies. Nancy. This is not mentioned anywhere
• 33:04
  Speaker 10: in the autopsy report. And one more thing, when you
• 33:09
  Speaker 10: have this idea of an intimate overkill event, particularly with
• 33:15
  Speaker 10: a female, one of the things that you're going to
• 33:17
  Speaker 10: do is in the neck. In the neck, and there's
• 33:20
  Speaker 10: only cursory mention of an absence of hemorrhage, which is
• 33:24
  Speaker 10: striking to me. In the autopsy report, the neck is
• 33:29
  Speaker 10: very complex. Relative to this network of muscles you had
• 33:32
  Speaker 10: mentioned the strap muscles. You literally at autopsy, and I
• 33:37
  Speaker 10: participated in this hundreds of times. You literally dissect each
• 33:42
  Speaker 10: muscle group and you flip it back and you look
• 33:45
  Speaker 10: at it both on the anterior that means the front
• 33:48
  Speaker 10: section and posterior the back section, and that gives you
• 33:51
  Speaker 10: an indication as to how much pressure was applied to
• 33:55
  Speaker 10: the neck. Now, she's already in a compromised position where
• 33:59
  Speaker 10: she's been so freaking traumatized relative to these knife wounds,
• 34:05
  Speaker 10: it would not take too much to push this precious
• 34:08
  Speaker 10: angel over the edge relative to her ability to uptake oxygen?
• 34:14
  Speaker 10: Do you hear what I'm saying? So all of these things,
• 34:17
  Speaker 10: can you do have concurrence here? I'm just amazed, Nancy,
• 34:22
  Speaker 10: that there is no mission of this in the autopsy report.
• 34:26
  Speaker 10: As a matter of fact, if you look at the
• 34:28
  Speaker 10: internal where it's listed as internal section, it's just a
• 34:33
  Speaker 10: passing thing to state that there is nothing there. And
• 34:36
  Speaker 10: one more thing and I'll shut my mouth. Over the
• 34:40
  Speaker 10: course of my career, I have never seen a case
• 34:46
  Speaker 10: where an emme changed the manner of death. Three times
• 34:52
  Speaker 10: I've seen it happen most of the time. What happens
• 34:54
  Speaker 10: is you go with undetermined, then you go to suicide,
• 34:57
  Speaker 10: you go to undetermined, then you go to homsid undetermined,
• 35:00
  Speaker 10: then you go to accident. It ain't what happened here.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: This is mind blow up Discott.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: In all the years I have investigated, prosecuted, and covered homicides,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: never once, never, once have I seen a COEOD cause
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: of death be changed like this. Usually I see a
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: determined to homicide. If there's any change at all, usually
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: they know at the get go what's happening now? I
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: was following along everything you just said. But can I
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: boil it down for you and get a simple yes? No,
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Ellen was stabbed twenty times in the back, the back
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: of the neck, the back of the head, covered in bruises. Yes,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: that's not suicide.
• 35:41
  Speaker 10: Yes, no, no, it's not suicide. I'll plainly say that.
• 35:44
  Speaker 8: The Ellen Greenberg evidence includes searches allegedly made by Greenberg
• 35:48
  Speaker 8: using Google to research suicide methods. The searches were not
• 35:52
  Speaker 8: added to the Greenberg evidence file until years after her death,
• 35:55
  Speaker 8: and Guy DeAndrea says he knows what was in the
• 35:58
  Speaker 8: file and Google searches of suicide by Ellen Greenberg was
• 36:02
  Speaker 8: not in the evidence file with me?
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: Is Guy DeAndrea, who was in the District Attorney's office
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: at the time and reviewed with a fine tooth comb
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: all the evidence, Guy, rapid fire. Isn't it true that
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Ellen's devices, her laptop and more were taken from the
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: crime scene by members of the Goldberg family? Is that true?
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: True?
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: All of those devices were returned? Were they not? After
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: being requested? They were? Isn't it true that that is
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: not SOP standard operating procedure for it is to be
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: taken from a scene. But wait, in this case, it
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: was a suicide, so apparently there was nothing wrong with it. Yes, no, no,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: it is not standing operating procedure. But this was a suicide,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: so possibly police didn't think there was anything wrong with it.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: To Sandy and Josh Green, these devices belonged to your daughter.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: Were you asked if Goldberg family members could take them? No?
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: What did you have to do to get them back?
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: In a nutshell, big borrow and steel? Okay, but you
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: did get them back. Now Here is my question to
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Guide DeAndrea. You state you carefully examined the entire file
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: and there was no evidence on her devices, any device
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: that she was looking up manners of suicide. Is that true?
• 37:33
  Speaker 13: That's true, Nancy. There was no reports of searching for suicide.
• 37:36
  Speaker 13: But more importantly, the computers were examined by the Federal
• 37:40
  Speaker 13: Laboratory our CFL, and their report details that nothing of
• 37:45
  Speaker 13: significance as it relates to suicide was found, meaning plain language,
• 37:50
  Speaker 13: no searches for suicide.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: So you search the FBI search. There was nothing in
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: the police files or the investigation files about her searching
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: for suicide. But y years later these searches emerge. That's
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: right to Joseph pedraza attorney for the Greenberg family, partner
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: LAMB mccarlan, Joe, I'm stunned only when a jury was
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: literally being struck. Okay, you know, I've seen it a
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: million times. When they look at the jury, they're like, Okay,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: I'll plead or I'll do a settlement. Because the chickens
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: have come home to roost. It's happening. Osbourne would have
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: to take the stand and everyone would have to explain
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: why they covered up his failure. Why what happened in
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: that meeting. That's what I want to know. What happened
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: in that meeting with cops, the ADA, and Osborne, the
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: medical examiner, they would have to under oath say what happened,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: and instead of doing that, they settled. My question is
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: what now can and we get this too a criminal
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: investigation by an independent investigator.
• 39:05
  Speaker 16: We will and we will take every measure of that
• 39:08
  Speaker 16: is possible to get it there. And failing to get
• 39:11
  Speaker 16: appropriate response by a prosecutorial authority or a law enforcement authority,
• 39:17
  Speaker 16: we're going to pursue c evinly. We're not letting this end.
• 39:20
  Speaker 13: We've gotten the ball to the goal line.
• 39:23
  Speaker 16: Now the time is to hold somebody responsible for this murder,
• 39:28
  Speaker 16: a massacre of this child.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: To Josh and Sandy Greenberg joining us who have been
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: through so much, all out of love for Ellen, what next, Sandy?
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: What next? We're going to go ahead.
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: I'm not Sandy. There's something I would love to bring up.
• 39:48
  Speaker 6: I'm sorry, Nancy. The court that turned us down for
• 39:52
  Speaker 6: not handing standing not having standing. The second the last
• 39:56
  Speaker 6: paragraph of the second page, the examination by the medical examiner,
• 40:01
  Speaker 6: the district attorney, and the detectives were faulty. That's by
• 40:06
  Speaker 6: a judge.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: Battle Then they.
• 40:09
  Speaker 6: Went on for thirty to thirty pages saying why we
• 40:13
  Speaker 6: should have justice for our daughter that's what paved the
• 40:17
  Speaker 6: way to the Supreme courts. Dancy, I'm sorry, you know what, Josh,
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: You're right.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, every fact is so important. You're right.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: A court said the investigation was faulty. So now what
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: are they going to do? Sandy? What do you think
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: will happen next? What do you want?
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: I want to see the death certificate changed to homicide.
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: We'll see how quickly that ocurse it occurs. Honestly, I
• 40:56
  Speaker 5: don't have a lot of legal ease, so I don't
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: really know where this is going to take us, but
• 41:03
  Speaker 5: I feel that we made.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Progress.
• 41:10
  Speaker 6: It's most important to us that this has done fair
• 41:15
  Speaker 6: and legal, unlike what happened to our daughter.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: To Sandy and Josh, please know, I know it feels
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: like it, but you are not alone tonight. When we
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: normally remember a fallen American hero, our heroes tonight are
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Parents, out of such deep love
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: for their daughter, have sacrificed it all the last fourteen
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: years of their life, their livelihoods, their money. They just
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: sold their home and now they are true David battling Goliath.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,