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From Journalism to Redefining Beauty Culture with Michelle Lee · Skin Anarchy

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Second Anarchy.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is such a special episode for me because our guest today I'm a big fan of hers and she has been such a monumental voice in the beauty industry and has changed so much and has been really at the in the front when it comes to you know diversity and really bringing out the best of this industry.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: So without me ranting too much, I want to introduce you guys to Michelle Lee.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Michelle.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so honored to be hosting you.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Hi there.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So excited to be here.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm thrilled and so excited always to talk about beauty.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I can't wait to chat with you because I mean I look at your career and you've just already you've accomplished so much and you've shifted the way this industry works and you know, things really like on a fundamental level.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, your work at Allure is just monumental, how you know, all the wonderful things you accomplished there.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd love to get started in that way.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: If you could kind of walk us down memory lane and tell us about what got you into beauty in the first place, like what made you want to come into it?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: I've been talking a lot with people about this and just, you know, in general, my career.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when I look back, I actually consider myself to be very much a generalist.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And when I was in college, I was like that kid who I had no idea what I wanted to do.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: At some point, I had to choose a major.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I had always really loved storytelling, writing, and so I chose journalism, very specifically magazine journalism.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so once I picked that route, I actually really wanted to go into fashion initially.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I moved up to New York City.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: My first job um was at Glamour magazine, and I had a great internship where I got to spend two weeks in every department.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So my first department was in the fashion closet.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: After I think maybe it was like day two, I was like, this is not the path for me.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so at some point, my my next um two weeks was spent in the articles department.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: I loved it because it kind of got me back to writing, um, editing, et cetera.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so really my path was less about the subject matter and more about I loved storytelling.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I say to people, I've done a bit of everything, like it sounds a little crazy.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I have written about pretty much every subject.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was a tech reporter, I've written about finance, kids and parenting, health and fitness.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was a cars writer for a while.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: I've written about extreme sports, I've done like lots of fun trips uh related to like snowboarding and other things.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I've always been kind of parallel to the world of beauty.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say looking back at my career, the one thing that tied everything together was really culture.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: I wrote about music, entertainment, culture in general.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right before I was hired at Allure, I was the editor-in-chief and chief marketing officer at nylon, which nylon at the time was still, you know, a very, very cool print magazine, uh, had really started to grow its digital and social presence.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: We did about 70 live events a year as well, and very much rooted in, again, fashion, beauty, culture, entertainment, music, all those things.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when I got hired at Allure, I don't think that I was like, you know, I I feel like I kind of came out of nowhere because I was definitely not considered to be a beauty person.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And looking back on my time there, I actually think that that was a real asset.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that I wasn't someone who was completely rooted in the beauty industry for my entire career, I was able to then look at beauty in a different way.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked at it very much through the lens of culture.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I was interviewing for the role, I think I probably, I mean, it was a long process that took probably about six months.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had met, had like 10 different rounds of interviews, and I had to do a presentation basically.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I came up with this little deck of, you know, these are the things I would do with the brand.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: And one of those things was I really see a strong focus on diversity and inclusion.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And this was, I'm trying to think of what year this was.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: This was when I started talking to them, I think it was like 2014, and I ended up starting in 2015.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to remember now because we see a lot more diversity and inclusion in every, you know, area, um in particular in beauty.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: But back then, if you, you know, transport yourself back to those days, it was not a big thing in media, wasn't a big thing in women's media, beauty, fashion, none of it.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so um I think that came a lot from my own person experience as well.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So being an Asian American woman, I grew up in a time where, you know, I considered myself a child of the 80s and 90s, and I never felt like I fit in in the beauty world.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I would read magazines, books, you know, watch TV, movies, everything.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there were very few people who looked like me.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when I was reading things about like, let's say makeup, it was always, you know, put this color in your crease.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I don't have a crease.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so you just started to feel like, okay, I don't really belong in this space.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so because I always was that person who felt like I didn't belong, it was really important to me, not just for Asian Americans, but also for everyone, to make sure that we were building a space that everyone felt included.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I would say, like looking back at Allure, my first year, I was very safe.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was like, oh my God, this is a huge job.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to like upset the Apple cart.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And looking back at my covers, like other things, I was like, I could tell I was not risk taking.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: By the second year, I think I started to feel more confident and you know, had my team set.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say, like, my team was incredible and honestly pushed me even more.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's truly the best thing when you have other people around you who are like, let's push, push, push.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so we did great things that I feel like I still talk to people about.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, most notably, I think people most know me for during my time at Allure.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: We banned the term anti-aging.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: I still get people reaching out to me, being like, oh my God, thank you so much for doing that.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: And we still see the the long-term effects of that, of where um now I do feel like we see more uh women over 40, over 50 in beauty campaigns, on runways, and in other things.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we really pushed diversity across many different facets, not just on covers, but you know, truly across all of our content.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we really, really meant it, not just in terms of like representation, but we also I think made really great strides when it came to how we hired people, not just um full-time staff, but also crews.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we would have very diverse, you know, photography crews, videography.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I really strongly believe that you get a better result when you have diverse voices in the room.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's so monumental to me what you did with that the you know, really banning the whole anti-aging thing and being part of that.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I remember, you know, when I started this podcast, understanding beauty as a consumer, it was like I hated seeing anti-aging everywhere.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, we shouldn't be talking like that.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's so huge to me that you were able to be at the front lines with this.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think even now, when you look at the beauty industry, I mean it's a lot better, right?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: But it's still we're dealing with these terminologies and especially even the the diversity side of it, we're still having these battles, you know, and they're not as large, maybe as I'm sure when you first stepped in, but like it was it's still going on.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I I mean, uh you've made such great stride for the whole industry there.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that's well, I think the thing is that we always wanted to do was we wanted to explore and kind of poke at beauty standards.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so even with the anti-aging thing, I would say 95% of people were super positive about it.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like we really wanted to spark conversation, and in that sense, I think we we massively succeeded.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: This was a global phenomenon where it just got people talking about how we talk about aging and how we talk about women and aging specifically.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the criticism that we got though was like, well, but you guys are still talking about skincare products and Botox and like, you know, facelifts, et cetera.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so the point of what we were doing though was not to say like don't do those things.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: It was that don't feel like you need to be pressured by society to do anything if you don't want to.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you do want to get Botox, if you do want to use all the beauty products, absolutely do that.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: But as a society, we need to stop making people feel like they're like quote unquote old or ugly or other things.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: But if you want to do those things, there's also no shame in that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there was like a, you know, amid some people, there was a bit of a misunderstanding of what that all meant.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: We weren't saying like stop doing everything.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like obviously, we are part of the beauty industry and we love it so much.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: But we also need to just stop and think a little bit about how people are feeling about things too.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I think it was very successful, but definitely noted some of the criticism and also made us think a little bit too of like how are we as an organization helping to feed into some of those things?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it's huge to just start that conversation, right?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I feel like half the time battle is like taking that first step, and that's where it's just it's such a great thing that happened.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm very curious because I love how you explained that you didn't feel like you really fit into the beauty industry.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of us can relate to that.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I definitely can, you know, growing up, I never felt like I fit in either, and for my own reasons, but like when you look at beauty, right, like as a landscape, like how do you how do you perceive beauty now?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like having had these roles and and worked behind the scenes so much?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what does beauty really mean for you when you hear that word?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I first of all am such a cheerleader of the entire beauty industry.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love it so much.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that, you know, compared to other industries, I do find it to be incredibly friendly, inclusive.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like even just as a business and as an industry, the people who I've met in beauty are so wonderful.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And like I just I love the vibe of the beauty industry.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: I would say what's changed probably in the past 10 years, though, is that it is hyper competitive.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's just so much more.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So at the time that I started at Allure, for example, um, this was kind of pre like huge beauty industry boom with all like the indie brands, et cetera.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like I remember starting, and some of the brands that we know now is like being, you know, hugely successful, the Globe Recipes, Summer Fridays, like those Tatcha, those brands, they were just kind of getting started.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so in the past 10 years, we've really seen this massive, massive explosion of the beauty industry just as a business.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so in that sense, I feel like it's gotten crowded and it's gotten a little bit more confusing, I think, right?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like because of social media, the internet, everything, I do think that consumers, for the most part, are more educated about things like ingredients, but it also then causes a lot of confusion.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, in skincare, I've been talking a lot with people about, you know, there's this pressure for new skincare products and brands to always be innovative, but it's impossible, right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So if you think about like the pressure of just how many skincare products are introduced every year, it's kind of impossible for everything to be, you know, asterisk, asterisk like innovative, like this brand new thing, blah, blah, blah.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that by having that pressure, it has caused a little bit more, I guess, doubt and skepticism among consumers, right?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: Where if on social media every single thing that you see is innovative, it just means that nothing, nothing is really innovative anymore.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm actually hoping for, I think we're in this period right now of a little bit of a reset where some of the skincare brands that we've seen be super successful in the past, people are a little bit more skeptical about now.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm actually hoping that there are some new brands that kind of come out and like really take some time to tell their story and talk a little bit more about why they're special and everything, it's impossible for everything to be like mind-blowingly innovative.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like new patents and like new technology everywhere.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I hear you.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's so real because a lot of times, most people all they really need is really great hydrating products.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like, let's be honest, you know, like it's half the time the skin problems that we deal with, that's really what we need from our skincare.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So well, I I was explaining to you that I just got back from um a week in Korea.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I spent a little time in Japan also.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I have fully immersed myself in K-Beauty and like Korean skincare the past couple of years, like and understanding more about it.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And you are so right about the hydration thing that there's this brand mixoon that I'm like obsessed with now that they have this whole line of just like single ingredient essences.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And like it's really just a pure centella, it's a pure galactomyces, but like by layering all these things, it really does change your skin a lot.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm so obsessed with Korean products, Japanese products.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just feel like there's a different it's not only innovation, but like there's a different philosophy about products and ingredients there that's you know, it's about purity, but it's also about efficacy and it's also about hydration.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't realize until I got older, I just thought you slap on like a heavy moisturizer and you're fine.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: But like truly, my skin was just dehydrated.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's, you know, yes, you should drink water, but there needs to be hydration from the outside too.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's so that's so fascinating that they're doing the single ingredient thing.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's brilliant actually.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because we have seen that, right?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: In the US, like hyaluronic acid was that.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I remember like when I first saw the first hyaluronic serum, was like, I forget the brand.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was a Japanese brand.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And was it AHC?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think Hadalabo.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, how was the first one I saw.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, I'm like, oh, that's amazing.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then hyaluronic acid just blew up, you know what I mean, in in the US.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like now everyone's got one.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I feel like that's it's one of the examples of where I think we did something right from a skincare standpoint.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like you have something that just brings moisture to your skin, and it's simple and it's easy to understand.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I just I I'm hoping that this K-beauty movement kind of leads to more of that for us, you know.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I appreciate too, beyond the hydration, is that a lot of us don't realize that we need soothing products too, because yes, if you have rosacea or other other issues with your skin where it like shows if you are like inflamed or other things, but honestly, most of us do need something that's quite soothing.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I do find also that Asian products, whether it's Korean or Japanese, have more of an emphasis on that soothing too, which again, just even from my own personal experience, has has really helped my skin.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And also like now everyone's buzzing about like inflammation.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen that?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone's like inflammation and like all this.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think that's really what it comes down to is like we need things we can rely on.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm curious, what is your like when you look at K-Beauty, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And how it's entering like the US market, like what's your opinion about that?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like the way it's being represented in the States.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um I know there's so many brands over there.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: So like the ones that are coming over, do you think they're like really representing what K-Beauty can do?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I've given this so much thought.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the companies that I work with is is truly one of the trailblazers in Korean beauty.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: So Landing International, they were like the big movement behind lots of the first wave of K-Beauty brands, like Coserex and others.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's interesting to think about that first wave, right?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: When the Coserexes and and others kind of came here.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: There were actually a lot of brands back then that did not last.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: So basically, a lot of them got into retail, but they didn't necessarily think about it, it costs a lot of money and it takes a lot of resources and time and effort to be successful here.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can't just get on the shelves of Sephora Ulta and expect that people are gonna know what your brand is about and like just pick it up.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: So in that first wave, unfortunately, I feel like a lot of brands were kind of misrepresented.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Coastarks, I think, did a great job.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So they really represented themselves well in terms of, again, innovation, ingredients.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: People really became very quite taken with things like snail mucin, et cetera.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they had a strong POV.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where the brands went wrong that didn't last, again, they they didn't do a great job of telling their story.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So what people ended up gloming on to was kind of like this cutesy thing, right?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Where it was like, oh, K-beauty is this weird thing where like either the ingredients are strange or it's like gimmicky, um, that it's all like cutesy bunnies and stuff like that.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really the wrong message.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: When actually what K-beauty really represents is again this focus on hydration, on different ingredients.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think in the second wave of K-beauty, brands are doing a phenomenal job of explaining how they're different.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: And what's what's changed, I think, largely has been TikTok, has been the big thing, and Amazon.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So this whole movement between, you know, brands from different countries, like you don't have to be a Western brand, you totally can be a Korean brand and you're taking off on TikTok.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: People show a lot of interest.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And because it is like fresh and new, um, they're either buying it directly from TikTok, TikTok shop, or we definitely see this pattern where things take off on TikTok and then people will go ahead and buy it on Amazon.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: One of the other companies that I work with, Front Row Group, we run the Amazon business for lots of amazing beauty brands.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we definitely have seen this pathway of, again, something spikes on TikTok, and there's like a direct correlation to someone buying it on Amazon.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, because of this whole first wave of K-Beauty, where traditional retailers were kind of like, we're not sure that this is gonna be a thing.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of these brands that we took on in this first wave did not succeed.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because there was this huge spike on TikTok and Amazon.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's actually made traditional retailers go, oh, okay, K-Beauty is back in a huge way.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So this year we're starting to see, and we're gonna see even more in the back half of the year, lots and lots of Korean brands launching in traditional retail.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's so exciting to see because, again, I am personally such a huge fan of so many of these brands.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the ones that are gonna make it here and really succeed and build long-term success are the ones that understand, again, you can't just plop yourselves on the shelves of like traditional retail without storytelling at all.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: You really do need to have this holistic view of like telling consumers on social media, pop-ups, media, everything.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is who we are, this is how we're different, and this is why you should want to engage with our products.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, again, the the brands who I know who are coming here are doing a phenomenal job at that.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's really true what you're saying, because even I'm noticing people are more receptive right now to K-Beauty too.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like on TikTok, a lot of content creators are like, hey, do you guys know?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like they try to educate their audience, like K-Beauty is the, you know, it's the epitome of amazing skincare.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I think getting really excited about it as well.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen that, like just, you know, going through TikTok and scrolling a lot of just American-based content creators, and it makes me wonder because there's this bad habit that I think I've seen the beauty industry fall into where everyone just buys, you know, it's like white label, right?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you just buy it something and then you put a new logo on it, you know, and then you call it yours.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like I'm just curious, do you think that's gonna happen with K-Beauty innovations and what they're creating over there where brands instead of bringing the whole brand over, they start saying, Well, we'll take from this and we'll, you know, we'll connect with them, but we're gonna rebrand it in a US way.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: One 150%.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's already happening.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think we start to see there's viral products, right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so there will be Western brands who either kind of pick up on that product or even just again, sort of Amazon exclusive, like just brands that happen to pop up that are dupes of that thing.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: That absolutely is already happening.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think you can see some short-term success with that type of thing.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Again, like if there's a an ingredient or a product that's taking off, maybe you'll see like a fast spike of it.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the way to build a brand though.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do think, I mean, there's so much competition across all of Korean brands, like manufacturing there is wild, wild.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so you do see a lot of brands that are not quote unquote brands.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like they are just sort of everything's white labeled, all the ingredients are the same, just the packaging is different.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think where traditional retailers are smart is that they know what to look for and what, you know, what feels like white label versus what feels very proprietary.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do know, again, I have kind of like the inside track on some of the brands that are coming.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like they have something special where I mentioned Mixoon, Mixoon grows their own ingredients.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So in their centella, they grow their centella on their own plot of land that has never been touched by pesticides, right?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have these kind of proprietary things that like they don't own the ingredient centella, right?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like others obviously can use centella, but because they have this plot of land that has never been touched by pesticides, you understand that then that ingredient is special, right?
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so similarly, there's other brands like Neogen, that Neogen is a manufacturer.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they're able to own their own formulas, that then people can't necessarily steal their formulas and then white label it.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I do feel like there are ways that brands over there are protecting themselves because they understand that the whole white labeling thing and and dupes industry is really thriving right now.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's really fascinating though, because I think that I I see a lot of like celebrities getting in on this too.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like where they're gonna just be like, well, I need a brand.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: So let me just go.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, in one way it's good because it brings good products, right, to people.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: But in another way, it's kind of like, come on.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, no, it's very, very interesting though for me as a consumer.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: I look at that and I'm I'm very fascinated by Asian beauty in general.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think I always have been.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like now I love seeing how on a mass scale we're getting behind it, you know, as a whole, you know, beauty community in the US.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other interesting thing is that yes, we always focus on like Asian skincare, which is absolutely, you know, incredible.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I do feel like this year we're starting to see more Asian color cosmetics.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're seeing hair fragrance, I think will come at some point soon.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then I do feel like body care is something that's like an easy, you know, if we think about Korean and Japanese skincare for your face, it makes sense then that they'd be great at doing body care too.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's exciting to me to be able to kind of like launch into some of these other categories and to show how how those products are quite different.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I love that you brought up body care because I I have to ask you like, what is one thing if you could advise about in terms of how we've done facial.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: skincare, right?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: That one thing that brands maybe should avoid when it comes to the body category, because I feel like it's going to be another round, you know what I mean?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Of like the skincare that we saw for facial skin.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: So what what's your opinion on that?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like any advice you have?
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's really interesting because I feel like a lot of people this year have been talking about how body care is so hot.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's largely, in my opinion, driven by Soul De Janeiro.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: So Sol de Janeiro has done an incredible job.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: To me, that brand though, they straddle this interesting space between body and fragrance, where I think that it's less about, and listen, their their body products are incredible and you know the boom boom cream is great.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also about the smell of it too.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's that thought of body care is a bit of like lifestyle that, you know, you have the whole experience of you like the sense of it, you like the feel of it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: What people I and maybe I'm just more speaking from myself too, I will spend, I don't know, 30 minutes, especially on a weekend if I have more time, on my face, right?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do a red light mask, I'll do like an acid or something.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'll do like a whole routine of things.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to body care, I'm lazy.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know what it is, but um even putting on lotion after a shower, I'm like, I'm just lazy about it.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And this is completely anecdotal, but I feel like other people who I talk to, they kind of mimic the same thing that ultimately body care, there's only so much that people are going to do.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I see a lot of brands who are introducing routines and things that are frankly too complicated.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just don't see people spending that much time on their body skin.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say the focus really needs to be on the experience of it.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like how enjoyable can you make it, whether it's through scent or other things, just because I do feel like the the philosophy and the mentality around how we treat body is is very different from our face.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely no I I love that you said that because I remember when people started doing the like the dry brushing or whatever it was and I was like oh no I have no time for this like I I do not have time and I'm lucky to like you know get my daily shower in.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I completely know what you mean.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it I'm just scared of that too, right?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: Of like the seven step body care routine.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just I'm waiting for it like covering my eyes.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely and I know there have been brands before who've like come out with like different masks and things for body and I'm just I I am not going to do that.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot it's a lot.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot and I just I don't know I think that it's interesting because I mean obviously we all know most of our skin is not on our face and we need to take care of it.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: But like it's really comes back to what you were saying like everything doesn't have to be this hardcore innovation.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like sometimes you just need a great product you know and it's just one is good.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know one great body cream is sometimes good enough.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely and I think that's the thing too is that you know many people will buy like a body lotion let's say just at you know Target CBS or whatever they kind of buy like the mass market thing.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: But there is I don't know there's something about finding just a basic body lotion that's five percent better than the one that I use.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's it smells great whether it's like absorbs really well.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do think that in terms of innovation you're so right that it doesn't need to be this brand new incredible ingredient.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: It just needs to be something that feels better that I actually really enjoy putting on.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely now I have to ask you because this is huge like right now I see it everywhere on LinkedIn especially is longevity.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure you've seen like a lot of doctors are like we're longevity doctors now, you know and like they're going into translational medicine and I feel like it's hitting the beauty industry pretty hard too in ways.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: What's your take on that like this whole movement towards longevity with all the NAD plus you know products out there now and like you know what I mean like all the supplements and stuff.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah you know it's really interesting because during the time that I was at Allure, we were very specific about not covering supplements because as we know it's really hard because a lot of that world is not regulated and there's a lot of claims that are made.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so we felt like unless we really really did a deep dive into the science, we really tested things, we didn't have the resources to really be doing that at the time and like again really going deep into all the ingredients.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so at some point we were kind of like we're just not going to cover it.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to ignore now though that because it has become such a huge market, I personally do believe in like certain supplements and I believe in you know what we eat and what we put on our bodies, how we treat our stress and other things really affecting longevity.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I do think we're in an interesting time though, I guess, where it's become such an industry that I would just urge people to really do their research that I think we're in a time where I guess sim similar to skincare ingredients too where because everything is this this brand new innovation and you know unfortunately I do think that there's probably quite a large number of supplements on the market where you're making yourself have expensive urine, right?
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's sort of like is it really doing anything?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Are we just sort of like is it all just a wish and a prayer?
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's hard because on some level I do believe we should take care of ourselves.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: We should do all those things.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I do believe that some supplements actually do work, but I do believe that there's a a large part of the industry that is kind of snake oil too.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's hard I think we all need to kind of find experts and other trusted people who really are going to do the research and tell us what's right and what's wrong.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: Cause a lot of it right now is kind of being shielded by a lot of like marketing speak.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely no I I love that you said that and I I keep thinking about you know how everyone's got like the big red light therapy.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like you know how tanning beds used to be back in the day.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Now they've got the red light beds and I look at that and I'm like I don't know how this is going to translate guys you know like 10 years from now 15 years from now I would hate to see something like you know like detrimental come out of this like a cancer.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: Totally well I I think that's the thing is that in general I feel like if there's something that we feel like is not going to do harm yeah if let's say we find out oh you were kind of wasting your time or whatever that's more okay with me I guess.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think that if it's anything if it's anything ingestible it does worry me a bit more that like is there a point in time when something will be considered, oh, this is actually bad for you.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Again, not to say people should not do those things, but I would just make sure you're really doing your research.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely no I agree with you.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I I want to ask you you know as kind of like a take home question about what are you the most excited about right now?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you look at the is it like a brand or anything specific that's really exciting you about the industry and the way it's headed and how things are shaping out.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh I feel like everything honestly excites me about the beauty industry.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: I do feel like like I said I feel like we're in a time of reset where we're I'm excited to see some of the new brands that are going to be coming out.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually weirdly very obsessed with makeup right now on a personal level.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think for such a long time I was such a just skincare person that then when I see makeup if someone sends me things I'm like very excited to get into it because you know what it is maybe for me personally too like I I've heard this across a couple others as well like I work remotely.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: So most days I'm like pretty minimal with my makeup this was sort of like a pandemic thing also where everyone leaned very much into skincare and just like self-care and really went quite minimal with the makeup.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know the whole clean girl aesthetic has been quite big but I I always am a big believer as with fashion things swing around always right we're on a pendulum that it's like you have the clean girl aesthetic and then you're gonna go to a more heavy is probably the wrong word, but like a more creative makeup look.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm actually quite interested to see you know new things within color cosmetics.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very into lip products like I feel like the whole tinted lip gloss thing has obviously been so huge but I actually feel like we're in an exciting time where we're gonna start to see some great like matte lip colors again that are not drying and just very much looking forward to seeing like new makeup things.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I love that I know that tier tier kind of blew up the makeup world recently you know with their that foundation that came out and I've I've been noticing like a more just Asian brands are coming over like you said.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's really exciting actually on the makeup front to see that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's definitely definitely and you know I I keep saying to people I don't know what it is but I I feel like we're due for something that kind of takes the industry by surprise.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll give you the example.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: So in Asia obviously people had been using pimple patches for a really long time it's such an easy thing but when that came over it was a category that didn't exist here.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so now we see a lot of brands obviously who have pimple patches and so I'm I'm actually excited for what else is to come.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: One of the brands that I work with is this great brand called All Better Co.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so they have basically they're trying to reinvent the first aid aisle.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: So they've taken those hydrocolloid patches and they have made them for bug bites.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you know anyone who's a mom out there like if you have a little kid who gets a really really itchy bug bite it's the worst thing because they can't stop scratching it.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: So they have these like larger hydrocolloid patches that are like have an anti-itch um cream inside so you put on the patch and it's like to me that's like a new category of where I'm like oh my gosh so genius.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: I used it on my five year old and I was like and she was like mommy it works I'm not itchy anymore and all of a sudden she had the patch it's like she's not scratching it.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: So like things like that I'm very excited about when I haven't seen a new format before.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad you brought that up like hydrochloride is really safe too that's a really interesting category that could expand a lot.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Totally totally and I will say too I I talk about this all the time that like highlighter for the lot didn't exist and so now it's like just completely part of the category.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm hopeful that there will be new categories that end up being introduced very soon.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's so exciting.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I mean I I can't wait to see it.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I think the beauty industry is so it's so fascinating to me as a scientist because we talked about how not everybody needs to be innovative but at the same time like in its own way it pushes so many boundaries you know in terms of like how fast we can move and like just grow, you know, and and learn and so I love that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love that about the industry.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what else is really exciting me right now is treatments and services.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I do feel like there's been so much more of a merger between that area of science and how people kind of you know think about their routines.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: So whether it is lasers, injectables you know different treatments, I feel like the technology portion of it has been really interesting where now we're starting to see that some of the at-home devices also are starting to incorporate some of those things whether it's like at-home laser RF microneedling and other things and so I do feel like within that space of things whether it's going you know in office or doing things at home that element of how technology is going to play into our everyday routines is going to be really interesting.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Oh absolutely I remember like when microneedling you know those roller devices like that was the only thing and now it's like there's so many different options like non like microneedling what are the I think I saw this on your feed you had posted about like the spicules.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes liquid oh my god I love spicules like I was I remember discovering them like two years ago and I saw it on your feed I was like yes I'm so just talking about this but yeah it's really exciting to see how people are adapting all of this right it's like there's so much and especially like you're right you know with the aesthetic treatments it always kind of blows my mind because when it comes to lasers like we didn't know anything I feel like as consumers like five years ago 10 years ago nobody knew anything.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And now everybody's like oh yeah I'm getting this you know procedure and then I'm gonna get this and everyone's talking about it like it is skincare.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like it is makeup you know totally so when I was in Korea I got three lasers like they they're very big proponents of like laser stacking and I looked a little crazy for like the first week and so now I'm I'm one week in and so my biggest skincare issue has always been hyperpigmentation.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah a lot of like sunspots and other things this has been the greatest like now that I'm a week in and all of my like little like micro scabs and things have fallen off my skin looks incredible.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was a great reminder to me of remembering to do laser every once in a while because truly not all of but like most of my spots have now like kind of fallen off.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: My skin is so just clear and like gorgeous I again I've become like a big laser proponent again.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wait what did you get done if you don't mind me asking I'm curious oh my gosh I had so many things I was there for three hours.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah not always getting the treatments but I had a Pico laser I had another laser that was like the second one that was just a string of like numbers and letters that honestly had never heard of before but I was like okay and then I had XLV.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: So they did all three lasers one after the other I had Juva look which is one of the skin boosters and then I did Rajurin which is the salmon sperm injections which hurt like hell.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow wow so like every everything was like back to back then like you got one and then another one and everything was all back to back.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so throughout everything they did a lot of like pre-treatment so I got like you know a little facial in the beginning after the treatment they gave me some cryo because my face was definitely on fire.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah I for the first week looked really crazy.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: After the first day I had you know my skin was super super red had lots of like you know injection marks and everything everywhere and by the end of the first day I was so swollen that my daughter and I were joking that I looked like that picture of like the wind blowing like my cheeks were just like totally puffed up and it took it took a good week for my face to go down.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was like constantly icing it but like I said this morning was kind of the first morning where I woke up and I was like oh my gosh my skin looks incredible.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wow so what is your what is your take on like post procedure stuff?
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like do you like those brands like the post procedure brands like are you into that category of skincare or are you just I mean what does that feel like for you?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: So honestly I have not been only because and it's not to say I'm not a believer or anything.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think I just don't know enough about it.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: My thought with that is typically after I have a procedure I keep things incredibly simple right and so it's not that I necessarily would go out and like buy something special.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's more that I'm keeping it like so so basic and simple.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I I do probably philosophically believe in using something different like if you you definitely should be steering clear of like active and actives and other things.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was on the trip that I was just on with in Korea with other beauty editors and some influencers and so similarly one of the other beauty editors had gotten a bunch of treatments and was like even with her sunscreen she was like does anyone have a sunscreen right now that I can borrow that has no actives in it so I think you know in general again I I agree we should be keeping things quite simple after procedures.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't that crazy though that we have all this together all the time like it's like you can't just get a freaking sunscreen I mean that's that's wild to me that we have everybody's about the seven you know like the seven things in one cream now I feel like that's what the new thing is but that's that's interesting.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I do feel like though um what's been interesting to see is I I do feel like among the younger consumers there is a little bit of this return to what's simple right that we've seen like you this love for Cera V, this love for Cetophil among like younger consumers um and maybe that does mean that people don't necessarily want like the kitchen sink and everything anymore.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: What do you love about Gen Z?
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so curious like about their take on beauty.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: So for reference I have three kids two of them are Gen Z and one is Jen Alpha.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: So my my oldest son uh Ethan is 20.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: My daughter my middle daughter is 17 and then we have a five year old right so what's been so interesting to look at has been how the two older ones really engage with personal care and the beauty industry.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: So my son was the one who really shocked me.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so you know everyone in the past couple years has talked about fragrance talk and about how Gen Z men in general have really taken to fragrance the boy I never would have imagined would be in so into fragrance.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's become truly like a fragrance aficionado.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: He knows so much more about brands and other things than I do.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like he'll bring up brands I'm like I've never actually heard of that brand before and he he just knows so much.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like what's exciting to me is it's built an interesting community across their generation of where they all talk about things like he trades fragrances with some of his friends.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: They talk about it all the time.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Pokemon cards.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's it's totally that and then my daughter my 17 year old she was not super into beauty until probably like the past two years I would say but again she and her friends talk all the time about brands they know so many things they know so much more about I did at that age about how to apply makeup, how to do skincare.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so I do feel like they're better informed in many ways like because she's my daughter also obviously she knows a lot about like you know what I think are good and bad products and brands and other things.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I do just feel like from her talking to her friends, learning from social media like they know so much more nowadays and they're pretty savvy about what they should buy and not buy.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know she definitely has has fallen into the trap of some of like the viral products before but like they have a pretty good radar of oh I don't like this or I or I love it.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm happy to see that with Gen Z, they seem like they're pretty discerning.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: They seem like they're pretty in some ways um race conscious too like they definitely have strong opinions about what they like and don't like I'm I'm very curious to see how Gen Alpha you know I know there's there's been a lot of talk about like Sephora kids and stuff like that.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like you know my five year old she you always as a as a little kid you always aspire to be older right so she watches me doing my makeup she watches my 17 year old doing makeup so she of course is like obsessed with makeup but I do feel like it's on the parents to also be like okay you don't honey you don't need this like vitamin C serum right so I do feel like the whole gen alpha Sephora kids thing has maybe been a little bit I was just I was gonna ask you that I'm like you know I feel like we are concerned you know what I mean but like a lot of it is kind of like why aren't you stopping your children from buying like AHAs and why isn't anyone sh shopping with them you know what I mean like go with them like exactly like kids can want what they want but you can also say no.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah exactly don't give them your credit card like and just go buy whatever you want I mean if I was a kid I had a thousand dollar limit right and my mom said go buy whatever I would pick up anything that was pretty I mean at the end of the day it's not like that's that's how children are but yeah I agree I think that there needs to be a lot more on the parents too with that.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so great though Michelle you are such like a fountain of wisdom like I I'm so excited that I had a chance to talk to you.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said I've been your fan for the longest time.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love everything you know no I really mean that you've accomplished so much already in your career and you've just made such huge strides for everybody.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know when you look at the beauty world especially the industry side of it like your your work just speaks for itself.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you know really hats off to you for being a leader you know here and and kind of having a different viewpoint rather than the same one over and over again.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like we see a lot of the same thing over and over again.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's honestly it's an industry that I love so much and I could talk about forever.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I I appreciate you and and I have loved our conversation.
• 41:42
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• 41:50
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• 42:14
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• 42:44
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• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.