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Balancing People and Processes in Business · Business Roundtable

0:02
Speaker 1: Hi everybody, welcome back here to the Business Roundtable podcast.
0:08
Speaker 1: My name is David Carr of Steward or Business and
0:11
Speaker 1: if you're listening for the first time, this is a
0:14
Speaker 1: podcast about bringing business owners leaders together to share knowledge
0:18
Speaker 1: and wisdom and encourage you as perhaps another small business
0:22
Speaker 1: owner or a team lead, a director supervisor to help
0:26
Speaker 1: lead your teams well, helped to do well in business.
0:29
Speaker 1: And so it's my honor to bring back a colle
0:32
Speaker 1: a client, a friend, John Kushank, to share with us
0:36
Speaker 1: this afternoon today about his journey in GMC squared and
0:43
Speaker 1: we both worked in the AEC industry architecture, engineering, construction,
0:47
Speaker 1: environmental consulting for a long time and so John, I'm
0:51
Speaker 1: just so glad to have you here on the podcast again.
0:54
Speaker 1: John was on a previous Roundtable podcast, but this is
0:56
Speaker 1: our first one on one and so John, welcome back
1:00
Speaker 1: the podcast.
1:01
Speaker 2: Oh, thanks for having me, David, it's great being back. Yeah,
1:03
Speaker 2: it's been a little while since you and I had
1:05
Speaker 2: spoken last. It was more of a roundtable last time.
1:09
Speaker 2: You had a couple gentlemen that were really technologically savvy,
1:13
Speaker 2: and I think we did still talk about, you know,
1:16
Speaker 2: all the trials and tribulations of running a business. So
1:20
Speaker 2: you know, as you mentioned, I've been in business many years.
1:23
Speaker 2: I started my company in nineteen ninety six, and so
1:26
Speaker 2: that dates me a bit. I don't feel that old,
1:30
Speaker 2: but I know I'm not a spring chicken anymore. But
1:34
Speaker 2: it's been a great journey. I mean, I always recommend
1:37
Speaker 2: to people about being an entrepreneur and running their own company.
1:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm excited. So what we're gonna John and
1:44
Speaker 1: I were talking before we got here recording, and I
1:46
Speaker 1: asked John, because we've had a lot of great experiences
1:48
Speaker 1: both being a part of a deltech user group. I've
1:53
Speaker 1: met him a previous company and then I was able
1:56
Speaker 1: to come on and work with his team and help
1:59
Speaker 1: them together. And so I thought it would be great John,
2:02
Speaker 1: for you to share with the listeners. Like you said,
2:05
Speaker 1: You've been in the industry for a long time, You've
2:06
Speaker 1: seen a lot of challenges, ups and downs, and I
2:09
Speaker 1: think this is really really valuable, particularly for those as
2:13
Speaker 1: you and I were talking before we started recording, those
2:15
Speaker 1: that may be newer to the industry and not have
2:18
Speaker 1: not seen the dynamics that you and I have seen
2:20
Speaker 1: over the course of our careers. And so that they
2:23
Speaker 1: can help navigate that and just kind of share John
2:26
Speaker 1: with the listeners here and for those of you that
2:28
Speaker 1: are listening, we also do a visual version of this
2:32
Speaker 1: the YouTube and we put this on LinkedIn as well,
2:35
Speaker 1: so you can you guys can see us as well
2:37
Speaker 1: in person inside of just listening. But John, maybe just
2:40
Speaker 1: start first and I'll just what got you started, What
2:45
Speaker 1: inspired you to be a business owner to step out
2:49
Speaker 1: and that there's a lot of challenges there and so
2:53
Speaker 1: what was that that that inspired you and and kind
2:56
Speaker 1: of guide us maybe initially. What were some of the
2:57
Speaker 1: things that you based in the early years of getting
3:01
Speaker 1: James Squared off the ground.
3:04
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a few things that got my company,
3:08
Speaker 2: James Squared off the ground. And you're right, I started
3:11
Speaker 2: pretty young. I started my company when I was twenty nine,
3:14
Speaker 2: but I had some working experience before that. When I
3:18
Speaker 2: graduated from college in nineteen eighty eight, there weren't a
3:21
Speaker 2: lot of jobs. I went on seventeen job interviews. I
3:24
Speaker 2: got two job offers. One was from the state of California,
3:27
Speaker 2: Caltrans the junior engineer, and the other was a two
3:32
Speaker 2: person structural engineering company and they told me they're going
3:35
Speaker 2: to pay me minimum wage and work me like a dog.
3:38
Speaker 2: And although I probably would have learned a lot, I
3:41
Speaker 2: don't know. That last second offer didn't seem as appetizing
3:44
Speaker 2: as the first. So I went ahead and worked for Caltrans,
3:46
Speaker 2: and then I ended up working for a couple of
3:49
Speaker 2: mid sized civil engineering companies on the West Coast, and
3:55
Speaker 2: I was with each of those for about three years each.
3:58
Speaker 2: But this is where the motive came to start my
4:01
Speaker 2: own companies that you know. The first one was a
4:04
Speaker 2: very successful mid sized engineering company, and one of those
4:08
Speaker 2: where they had built a very strong culture of leaders
4:12
Speaker 2: and technical people and experts and different types of civil
4:18
Speaker 2: engineering and structural engineering professions. And unfortunately the ownership of
4:25
Speaker 2: that company, they realized it was time for them to
4:28
Speaker 2: hang it up, and so they ended up selling and
4:32
Speaker 2: we ended up merging with a big company, Kaiser Engineers.
4:37
Speaker 2: And Kaiser Engineers, if you recall, they were an amazing
4:41
Speaker 2: big company. They were the ones that designed Hoover Dam,
4:43
Speaker 2: and they had a long, long historic portfolio of amazing
4:48
Speaker 2: engineering companies. But I think, like many companies, they get
4:52
Speaker 2: too large and they lose their focus on who they are,
4:55
Speaker 2: and so they were they were flailing for the most part,
4:58
Speaker 2: and they didn't have a lot of good lead. But
5:00
Speaker 2: then you put those two cultures along with I think
5:03
Speaker 2: there was three or four other companies they rolled up
5:05
Speaker 2: into that merger and realized that that wasn't for me anymore.
5:10
Speaker 2: Like the culture completely changed. And I always described that
5:14
Speaker 2: as as if we were like this, like speedboat going
5:18
Speaker 2: across the ocean, and Kaiser and the others were like
5:21
Speaker 2: the Titanic, and we were attached with an anchor, and
5:25
Speaker 2: we were going great. And then when the Titanic started
5:27
Speaker 2: going down, there was no way we were going to
5:30
Speaker 2: continue on so right, so the whole thing imploded. And
5:33
Speaker 2: then I went to work. I wanted to find another
5:35
Speaker 2: company that emulated that same sort of family culture, and
5:39
Speaker 2: I found a company that was like that. They were
5:41
Speaker 2: actually based out of Washington. Great. They were doing amazing
5:45
Speaker 2: transportation jobs. I had a chance to work on the
5:48
Speaker 2: first high acuracy vehicle project in the United States, really
5:53
Speaker 2: the six oh five Freeway. Great experience. But then they
5:56
Speaker 2: sold to a big science company, Harding Loss, and those
6:02
Speaker 2: people had no idea what we did as civil engineers,
6:05
Speaker 2: and so scientists trying to run an engineering company was
6:08
Speaker 2: a nightmare, and I realized, as they say, when you're
6:11
Speaker 2: climbing the corporate ladder, you look down and you see
6:14
Speaker 2: all your friends, and you look up and you know
6:16
Speaker 2: what you see. So I said, Wow, if these idiots
6:20
Speaker 2: can run a company, and I probably could do the same.
6:22
Speaker 2: So I went ahead and did my own thing in
6:26
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, and honestly, I went for several months
6:30
Speaker 2: with no work at all, had in hand to everyone
6:34
Speaker 2: and I actually the first four years I worked seven
6:36
Speaker 2: days a week, twelve our days. And so I don't
6:40
Speaker 2: think things have changed. Honestly. I think it's probably harder
6:43
Speaker 2: to start a business in California nowadays because of all
6:45
Speaker 2: the government regulations. But still there's been nothing more fulfilling
6:51
Speaker 2: than being an entrepreneur. So that's how I got my start.
6:55
Speaker 1: Wow, John, No, I mean I agree with you. I
6:58
Speaker 1: don't know you. You serve in political office and mayor.
7:02
Speaker 1: You certain you've run a kind of supervisor and I
7:04
Speaker 1: know you and I've talked about this in the past.
7:06
Speaker 1: You know how important it is to have an understanding
7:08
Speaker 1: I think in all that goes in to make a
7:11
Speaker 1: business run and be successful, it's a lot, right you know.
7:15
Speaker 2: Well, that's right, it's a lot, And I don't care
7:18
Speaker 2: what type of business it is. I mean it's a lot.
7:20
Speaker 2: And you know, they always talk about how you kind
7:23
Speaker 2: of have to master the trade first and you're like
7:26
Speaker 2: a master of that trade and then then you start
7:29
Speaker 2: your own business. But running a business is so much
7:32
Speaker 2: different than being a master of a trade, and and
7:34
Speaker 2: you quickly learned that, and and you got to you
7:37
Speaker 2: got to change your focus from you know, in my case,
7:40
Speaker 2: doing really high quality engineering construction documents and technical reports
7:46
Speaker 2: to going out and and knocking on doors and asking
7:51
Speaker 2: for work and and and then then you start to
7:55
Speaker 2: get work. And once you have that work, now you
7:58
Speaker 2: can't do it all yourself. And then you got to
8:00
Speaker 2: start hiring employees. And the whole thing is starts to snowball,
8:03
Speaker 2: as we'll probably talk about.
8:04
Speaker 1: Yeah absolutely, oh absolutely, yeah. Well, and this is one
8:07
Speaker 1: of the things that brought us together actually where we're working,
8:10
Speaker 1: where you're running for political office, and you recognize that, hey,
8:13
Speaker 1: I need to have help to support the team. And
8:15
Speaker 1: I think that's what a good business owner does. It's like,
8:18
Speaker 1: where do I bring the resources, what's the best use
8:20
Speaker 1: of my time? How do we do that? And so
8:22
Speaker 1: what I hear you saying in the evolution of JMC
8:25
Speaker 1: squared was where we're going to get to talking about
8:28
Speaker 1: the horns of people and processes and systems. But like
8:32
Speaker 1: at first, it is a lot of work, Like you said,
8:34
Speaker 1: it's figuring this out, like I'm doing everything, right, you
8:37
Speaker 1: had to do everything at some one point.
8:40
Speaker 2: Well, that's right, I mean, you do everything, and then
8:42
Speaker 2: you then you start to realize how valuable your time is.
8:46
Speaker 2: We only have twenty four hours every day, and you've
8:49
Speaker 2: got to sleep during some of that because if you
8:50
Speaker 2: don't sleep, you're things aren't going to work right. So
8:55
Speaker 2: then you start to carve out what are the things
8:57
Speaker 2: that you're doing that maybe someone at a lower rate
9:02
Speaker 2: or could be doing. So, you know, the first thing
9:05
Speaker 2: for me was, of course an office administrator I had
9:09
Speaker 2: because of the engineering. The way engineering works, you've got
9:12
Speaker 2: to be out in the field looking at projects, meeting
9:16
Speaker 2: with clients and then coming back and doing work. And
9:18
Speaker 2: so good half of my time was gone from the office.
9:21
Speaker 2: So the phone's still ringing, and the phone rings and
9:24
Speaker 2: nobody's there to answer because I'm out in the field.
9:26
Speaker 2: And you know, back then I wouldn't say we had
9:29
Speaker 2: the greatest cell technology. In fact, we might have still
9:32
Speaker 2: been using one of those things or a pager. Yeah, pagers. Yeah,
9:38
Speaker 2: you'd get the number and you have to pull over
9:40
Speaker 2: and go to a pay pay phone and call them.
9:43
Speaker 2: And so you know, I'm dating myself there a tiny bit, but.
9:46
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I'm there with you.
9:49
Speaker 2: That's what it is. I mean, you start to carve
9:50
Speaker 2: out the things that you can entrust with other people
9:53
Speaker 2: to do, and honestly, you start to find people that
9:56
Speaker 2: are even better at doing some of those tasks than
9:59
Speaker 2: you are. I mean answering the phone. It sounds like
10:02
Speaker 2: it's such a minimal, menial thing, but honestly, it answering
10:07
Speaker 2: the phone and the professionalism and that being the first
10:11
Speaker 2: thing that any client hears from is so important that
10:16
Speaker 2: you realize that you can't just hire anyone to be
10:19
Speaker 2: an office manager office administrator. You have to hire someone
10:23
Speaker 2: that is going to come in and you know, leave
10:26
Speaker 2: their problems at home and answer the phone cheerfully and
10:30
Speaker 2: make clients feel like they're the only client in the world.
10:32
Speaker 2: And so and you have to monitor these things like
10:38
Speaker 2: you don't want to be watching over their shoulder. But
10:40
Speaker 2: when you're sitting in your office. You're you're kind of
10:43
Speaker 2: paying attention to what's going on in the front office
10:45
Speaker 2: and what's going on in the whole building, because one
10:50
Speaker 2: person with a bad attitude or talking bad about the
10:54
Speaker 2: company can just destroy morale. And and once morale goes down,
10:58
Speaker 2: then the good people start to think about where do
11:00
Speaker 2: I go next because I can't stand being around this person.
11:04
Speaker 2: The bad person is not going to leave because they're
11:06
Speaker 2: not going to find another job, and now you're stuck
11:08
Speaker 2: with just bad employees. So I mean, there are just
11:12
Speaker 2: business can be a vicious cycle unless you start to
11:15
Speaker 2: understand procedures and start to understand the process.
11:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, well let's let's let's dive into a little bit
11:21
Speaker 1: more because I think we'll start with people, Like you said,
11:24
Speaker 1: so there's there's that's to me what it thinks seems
11:28
Speaker 1: to be. You know, I haven't run a business as
11:30
Speaker 1: long as you have, John, but working in companies and
11:32
Speaker 1: being inside them and seeing like, okay, it's it's it's
11:35
Speaker 1: you've got to have like you said, I'm doing all
11:37
Speaker 1: these things, I've got to have somebody else that I
11:40
Speaker 1: can offload this too. So it's it's a it's a
11:43
Speaker 1: people before before the systems. You definitely want to have
11:45
Speaker 1: systems and processes, but it's almost like you start to
11:48
Speaker 1: document that and it's it's building, but it's like, Okay,
11:51
Speaker 1: I've got all this stuff. I need help. I just
11:52
Speaker 1: there's there's not enough hours in the day. So maybe John,
11:56
Speaker 1: just share with us, you know, a little bit of
11:58
Speaker 1: your journey of like you said early before we even
12:00
Speaker 1: got on here, you've had colleagues working with you for
12:03
Speaker 1: you know, seventeen twenty plus years, you know, and so
12:09
Speaker 1: what what did you what did you see has worked
12:12
Speaker 1: well for you at starting at that place where you're
12:15
Speaker 1: you're the sole person doing it all, and then starting
12:19
Speaker 1: to hire, train, and retain talent building that team, John,
12:24
Speaker 1: what is let's just focus on the importance of people
12:27
Speaker 1: and why have you seen that you've been successful? And
12:29
Speaker 1: also maybe share also pitfalls that people are thinking about,
12:31
Speaker 1: like hey, when because there's all this talk like when
12:35
Speaker 1: do I hire somebody? Like I don't want to hire
12:37
Speaker 1: some many too soon, but I don't want to wait
12:39
Speaker 1: too long either. How do I evaluate that they're the
12:42
Speaker 1: right fit for the company? Right? John? So maybe if
12:44
Speaker 1: you wouldn't mind just sharing some of your insights and
12:47
Speaker 1: experience there.
12:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. Well, I mean they have the phrase
12:50
Speaker 2: to fail fast. And we didn't talk about this, but
12:54
Speaker 2: the first engineer that I hired for my company, he
12:57
Speaker 2: only lasted two weeks. Two weeks, and you know, when
13:02
Speaker 2: I interviewed him, I made the mistake of, you know,
13:06
Speaker 2: just being too eager to kind of hire the first
13:09
Speaker 2: person available without really doing the proper due diligence of
13:13
Speaker 2: understanding their character and understanding what their goals are and
13:16
Speaker 2: what they want to do. And so I don't think
13:19
Speaker 2: I truly explained to him that my first office was
13:22
Speaker 2: literally part of my dad's machine shop. And so he's
13:26
Speaker 2: sitting in a machine shop. My dad's in the next
13:29
Speaker 2: room grinding and building big panels and and doing a
13:34
Speaker 2: bunch of mechanical engineering stuff. And he and this engineers
13:40
Speaker 2: is sitting there while I'm out of the office meeting
13:43
Speaker 2: with clients and looking at projects, and he has no
13:46
Speaker 2: idea what to do. He's got no guidance. He's just
13:50
Speaker 2: sitting there alone. And that was not what he wanted.
13:53
Speaker 2: And so after the first week of him kind of
13:56
Speaker 2: dressing nice and coming in and being presentable, I realized
13:59
Speaker 2: the second week he started coming in with you know,
14:01
Speaker 2: white T shirts and jeans and and and by this
14:05
Speaker 2: end of the second week, he basically told me John
14:07
Speaker 2: I he said, mister Kirschhenk, I'm I have to take
14:11
Speaker 2: another job. This isn't what I want. And so that
14:14
Speaker 2: was my first engineering employee and the first person to
14:18
Speaker 2: quit from JMC square. And that's all within two weeks.
14:20
Speaker 2: So what I learned from that though, is that the
14:24
Speaker 2: younger engineers, younger anyone, not just engineers, but anyone coming
14:28
Speaker 2: into a company that that want is the start of
14:31
Speaker 2: their career. They need people to mentor them, and they
14:34
Speaker 2: need people there to answer questions and to give them guidance,
14:37
Speaker 2: and we need to take the time to do that. So,
14:40
Speaker 2: you know, going to the employe, now going to some
14:43
Speaker 2: future employees. You know. Another year later, I was in
14:46
Speaker 2: a little nicer office, wasn't there wasn't a machine shop anymore.
14:50
Speaker 2: It was actually a little more professional officers actually carpet
14:54
Speaker 2: on the ground, and I had two engineers that started
14:58
Speaker 2: at the same time. And honestly, one of the guys,
15:03
Speaker 2: his name is Felix. After he did like a week's
15:06
Speaker 2: for the work, and then he came in and apparently
15:09
Speaker 2: the apparently the server wasn't working. It was back there
15:13
Speaker 2: wasn't a sneaker net, the old system of sneaker net
15:15
Speaker 2: where you're bringing floppy disk, but it wasn't the most
15:18
Speaker 2: robust network system. And he did a week's for the
15:22
Speaker 2: work and then I think the server deleted everything, so
15:26
Speaker 2: he lost all of his work within a week. And
15:28
Speaker 2: that was like my first crisis with someone. He was
15:31
Speaker 2: just so depressed. But the one thing I made sure
15:35
Speaker 2: that he had that Like at first, I told him
15:38
Speaker 2: that wasn't your fault. That's all on the equipment and me,
15:42
Speaker 2: and you know, let's go ahead and get this fixed.
15:46
Speaker 2: I brought in an IT person. We made that more robust.
15:48
Speaker 2: He saw that I took responsibility for the problems and
15:52
Speaker 2: mistake that happened. It wasn't his fault. I didn't make
15:54
Speaker 2: him feel bad, is why should I wasn't his fault, right,
15:57
Speaker 2: But I also had a senior person I high that's
16:01
Speaker 2: that stayed in the office full time and the nicest
16:03
Speaker 2: guy in the world, and he was there to kind
16:07
Speaker 2: of help room these guys. And he was an older gentleman.
16:11
Speaker 2: And then when he retired, I brought in another very senior,
16:14
Speaker 2: older gentleman to continue on. And so these two people
16:18
Speaker 2: instead of leaving in two weeks like that first employee
16:21
Speaker 2: I had, I had one employee leave after seventeen years
16:24
Speaker 2: and the other one after twenty one years. And so
16:27
Speaker 2: there's ways in which you can create the right environment.
16:30
Speaker 2: And both of those engineers were fantastic. They you know,
16:34
Speaker 2: they they learned from me, but then they went out
16:37
Speaker 2: and learned on their own. They learned from the clients,
16:40
Speaker 2: they learned by listening, they learned from the mentors they had.
16:44
Speaker 2: So you know, for people that say, well, you should
16:46
Speaker 2: just hire more seasoned people because they won't leave, honestly,
16:50
Speaker 2: the reason people leave is because of the good or
16:53
Speaker 2: bad environment we as business owners create, And so you
16:56
Speaker 2: shouldn't blame someone for their age. You need to blame
16:59
Speaker 2: yourself and to responsibility and create the right environment so
17:03
Speaker 2: that people want to stay in that environment. Provide them challenges,
17:07
Speaker 2: but also don't put them out on a limb where
17:09
Speaker 2: they're always taking risks that they shouldn't necessarily be taken.
17:12
Speaker 2: Remember it's your company, yep. You need to take responsibility
17:16
Speaker 2: and part of and a big part of that responsibility
17:18
Speaker 2: is making sure that all your employees are in a
17:23
Speaker 2: position to where they're learning, but they don't feel threatened.
17:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I want to. I want to for those
17:31
Speaker 1: that are listening. John and I worked very closely, uh
17:35
Speaker 1: with his team, and I wanted to you know, John,
17:37
Speaker 1: you you invested a lot in your team. And I
17:39
Speaker 1: actually did a different podcast recently when I was talking
17:42
Speaker 1: about providing high support and high challenge both and I
17:46
Speaker 1: think what what I hear you saying, John, is that
17:49
Speaker 1: you're very much number one. It starts with you as
17:51
Speaker 1: the business owner, the leader. It's like, I have to
17:53
Speaker 1: take responsibility for the situation that it's I'm not blaming anybody.
17:57
Speaker 1: This is the reality that I'm dealing with. And I
17:59
Speaker 1: think reading that culture that it's not a blame game.
18:03
Speaker 1: But You're you're looking at saying I'm taking responsibility. I
18:07
Speaker 1: gotta look at look at wherever he's at and in
18:11
Speaker 1: the situation, and so that they feel empowered, You're you're
18:14
Speaker 1: giving them that support, John, And then I think you
18:17
Speaker 1: and I've talked about this in past conversations, but it's
18:21
Speaker 1: it's knowing yourself as a leader, right of like providing
18:24
Speaker 1: the support and that challenge that's needed to like, hey, guys,
18:28
Speaker 1: this is what we need to do to get the
18:29
Speaker 1: job done right. This is important, and it's it's both
18:32
Speaker 1: of those things.
18:35
Speaker 2: Well right. I mean, remember every person that comes to
18:39
Speaker 2: work for you is there for their own personal reasons
18:44
Speaker 2: as well. And if you don't listen to that, you
18:46
Speaker 2: don't like a lot of people talk about, well, here's
18:48
Speaker 2: the objectives of our company, the same old things. You know,
18:52
Speaker 2: we're going to be a world class whatever, blah blah blah,
18:55
Speaker 2: and you know we're going to be the best in
18:57
Speaker 2: such and such, and we're going to make this and
19:00
Speaker 2: we're going to grow by x amount this year. And
19:03
Speaker 2: you kind of hear all the platitudes that companies go through,
19:05
Speaker 2: but companies don't take the time to actually talk to
19:08
Speaker 2: their employees and sa, hey, what are your objectives? Like,
19:11
Speaker 2: what are you going to do this year? What do
19:13
Speaker 2: you want us to be doing? Here are the objectives.
19:15
Speaker 2: I kind of see it, But what do you think
19:17
Speaker 2: about that? And so they do talk about how a
19:21
Speaker 2: lot of people do get frustrated with organizations and companies
19:24
Speaker 2: because there isn't enough dialogue. You know, maybe an annual review,
19:29
Speaker 2: but that's certainly not enough dialogue. I recommend every month
19:34
Speaker 2: meeting with every employee to just talk about their objectives
19:39
Speaker 2: with what's going on with them, what the roadblocks are
19:43
Speaker 2: in front of them in terms of their day to
19:45
Speaker 2: day job, what's frustrating, what's good? What type of work
19:49
Speaker 2: should we pursue. You know, I don't always know where
19:52
Speaker 2: the market's going to take us, and the market doesn't
19:54
Speaker 2: always mean that's where our clients are. Many times the
19:57
Speaker 2: market means where are our employees? Like, what are their strengths?
20:00
Speaker 1: Yep?
20:00
Speaker 2: And you know you got to you got to balance
20:02
Speaker 2: because you don't want your employees to feel uncomfortable doing
20:05
Speaker 2: things that they're not used to doing all the time. Now,
20:10
Speaker 2: some high performing employees love challenges all the time. Some don't,
20:17
Speaker 2: So you need to know who those are and how
20:18
Speaker 2: to balance that with them as well. So you know,
20:21
Speaker 2: the everyone knows their strengths and weaknesses. They talk about
20:24
Speaker 2: being on the right seat on the bus Yep, you
20:27
Speaker 2: know it's very true.
20:28
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, one of the things I know you and
20:30
Speaker 1: I worked on last year with who the company was,
20:32
Speaker 1: we looked at strategic planning, right, like you said, what
20:35
Speaker 1: are the things that we should be going after? What
20:37
Speaker 1: are the values that are important to the company, right,
20:40
Speaker 1: I think getting buying and people. And in fact, I
20:44
Speaker 1: just talked to another client to day about this because
20:46
Speaker 1: they were like they had almost too many values. I'm like, well,
20:49
Speaker 1: let's clear, we get clearer. They had like twenty thirty
20:52
Speaker 1: of them. I might, okay, well that's a lot. That's
20:54
Speaker 1: we don't we can't even articulate them. But I think
20:57
Speaker 1: in working with you and your team, John, and seeing
21:00
Speaker 1: how you were leading them and getting their feedback, and
21:03
Speaker 1: there was I was there helpu thing facilitate, but saying okay,
21:06
Speaker 1: well this is important to me, Like you said, I
21:08
Speaker 1: think this is really important. We need to focus in
21:09
Speaker 1: on that. Okay, well why is that and then come
21:12
Speaker 1: to consensus and support one another. Because you obviously have
21:17
Speaker 1: structural and civil so you've got different groups in your
21:20
Speaker 1: in your organization. You have administrative folks that are looking
21:24
Speaker 1: at they what they need to get done, right, and
21:26
Speaker 1: like having them talk with each other and understand and
21:29
Speaker 1: creating that culture of collaboration. And we're more productive together
21:35
Speaker 1: when we help achieve these results, right instead of being siloed.
21:40
Speaker 2: Well right, and just when you say the word civil
21:44
Speaker 2: netitary versus structural engineering and for those of the people
21:47
Speaker 2: that are listening or watching that aren't engineers. You would think, well,
21:51
Speaker 2: what's the difference. Kind of all engineers are kind of
21:53
Speaker 2: introverted and they wear they wear these kind of plaid
21:56
Speaker 2: shirts and and all that. But there's a lot of
22:00
Speaker 2: difference between civil and structural e Neineers, like civil engineers
22:06
Speaker 2: are are are more you know, people, they like people,
22:10
Speaker 2: they like to do, you know, a multitude of jobs outside.
22:16
Speaker 2: They'd love to see the big projects being done. Structural
22:19
Speaker 2: engineers are very focused on details. They're not always the
22:23
Speaker 2: greatest project managers just because they're more they're more problem
22:29
Speaker 2: solvers in terms of engineering problem solving, but being able
22:33
Speaker 2: to cool us. Kind of those different personalities. And like
22:38
Speaker 2: you said, we have finance people, I have an office
22:40
Speaker 2: and our coordinator that tries to keep everyone harmonious, and
22:45
Speaker 2: they all have different careers and and and roles in
22:48
Speaker 2: the company. But you're right, if if they're not working together,
22:51
Speaker 2: then the whole thing falls apart. And you know, I've
22:54
Speaker 2: I've gone through some different I used to do surveying
22:59
Speaker 2: and what I found there was that was just way
23:01
Speaker 2: too difficult to manage. I mean, there's just you know,
23:04
Speaker 2: there's so many moving parts in that type of business
23:07
Speaker 2: that I was having difficulty focusing on civil engineering work
23:11
Speaker 2: and doing survey work. And I found that the poor
23:17
Speaker 2: work being done by our survey department because I'm not
23:19
Speaker 2: a surveyor, you know, Like I said, I take responsibility
23:22
Speaker 2: for that. So when clients are calling and jobs aren't
23:26
Speaker 2: getting out the door like we wanted them to, I
23:28
Speaker 2: take that personally and I just could never solve that.
23:31
Speaker 2: So I guess that's another component of being a business
23:34
Speaker 2: owner is that sometimes you can't do everything. Sometimes you
23:39
Speaker 2: have to admit you failed at it, and it's best
23:44
Speaker 2: for you as a business owner to do the things
23:48
Speaker 2: that you're good at too. Like we're talking about employees,
23:51
Speaker 2: but remember you're leading the company and you need to
23:56
Speaker 2: have confidence and the ability to do the things that
23:59
Speaker 2: you lead or else that's going to fail as well.
24:02
Speaker 2: And when one fails and the other one's carrying the
24:05
Speaker 2: water or wait for the other department or group, then
24:08
Speaker 2: that starts to get resentment. And then then you get
24:11
Speaker 2: back into this whole You know, why are we working
24:14
Speaker 2: so hard if they're failing over here? And so that's
24:18
Speaker 2: you know, more complexities to business. But I think as
24:21
Speaker 2: business owners we have a responsibility to make sure that
24:24
Speaker 2: we're doing the things that we're good at as well.
24:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's so so vital, John, And I've
24:31
Speaker 1: seen you firsthand doing that for yourself and your teams
24:35
Speaker 1: and helping them get like you said, the right seat
24:38
Speaker 1: and the bus, encouraging them to lead into you. And
24:42
Speaker 1: I've gone through the giant five voices framework, but just like, Okay,
24:45
Speaker 1: how do I show up well? And as a leader?
24:49
Speaker 1: What I've seen John is that you're you're encouraging and
24:52
Speaker 1: empowering those to step up into a leadership role and
24:56
Speaker 1: supporting them and realizing your better. Like I think this
24:58
Speaker 1: is a key one that you said, is actually you're
25:02
Speaker 1: you're not threatened by somebody actually being better at something,
25:04
Speaker 1: then you're like that's.
25:05
Speaker 2: Great, right, better than me?
25:08
Speaker 1: Honestly, Yeah, you know, there's no ego there in the
25:11
Speaker 1: sense of because you know, there's other things you need
25:13
Speaker 1: to be focusing on working as the business owner and
25:16
Speaker 1: the leader that it's like I want them to come
25:19
Speaker 1: in and sometimes we have I know. I'm saying that
25:22
Speaker 1: because I think some people that are in maybe a
25:25
Speaker 1: lower position right now, they might be threatened by that.
25:27
Speaker 1: But really realize that you'll actually grow and do more
25:30
Speaker 1: together if you allow these folks to rise up with you.
25:33
Speaker 1: Don't be threatened by it. Just look again, like you said, John,
25:36
Speaker 1: where is my strength? Where am I going to have
25:38
Speaker 1: the most effectiveness? And lean into that, Be aware of weaknesses,
25:43
Speaker 1: Be aware of those things, and then pivot from you know,
25:47
Speaker 1: if they're not producing the fruit or the results that
25:50
Speaker 1: your light want, then pivot from that. Like you said,
25:53
Speaker 1: maybe you got to get out of that. Like you said, surveying,
25:55
Speaker 1: you know, we just wasn't our strength. I tried, it
25:58
Speaker 1: didn't work. Let's pivot right.
26:02
Speaker 2: Well, that's it, and I think you need to have
26:05
Speaker 2: the right team around you that understands that need to
26:08
Speaker 2: pivot too. I mean, you're talking about how I ran
26:11
Speaker 2: for Los Angeles County Supervisor and that was a tremendous
26:15
Speaker 2: amount of time every day that I had to put
26:18
Speaker 2: into that campaign, and you know it's a decision I made.
26:21
Speaker 2: So you know, I never complained about any of them. Actually,
26:24
Speaker 2: I loved campaigning and I was a real honor to
26:27
Speaker 2: be able to do that. And you know I wasn't
26:29
Speaker 2: successful this time around, but you know, sometimes success isn't
26:33
Speaker 2: always just measured by election victory. Sometimes it's just you know,
26:37
Speaker 2: learning who you are and learning how to do things
26:39
Speaker 2: better and and but in the same sense, I still
26:43
Speaker 2: had a company that I relied on to bring me
26:46
Speaker 2: a salary to make sure I could pay my bills.
26:49
Speaker 2: And so fortunately I had good people that work for me,
26:53
Speaker 2: that I trusted. And it took me many years to
26:56
Speaker 2: get to the point where not only was I able
26:58
Speaker 2: to let go of all everything from high to low
27:02
Speaker 2: level things, but also to entrust that or allow for
27:08
Speaker 2: people to make mistakes and tell them it's okay to
27:12
Speaker 2: make mistakes, it's okay to not be perfect, and you know,
27:17
Speaker 2: anytime you need me, I will be there. And but still,
27:21
Speaker 2: if you make a mistake, all we can do is
27:25
Speaker 2: just fix it, you know, say you're sorry, and fix it.
27:28
Speaker 2: And you know, I've kind of built my entire career
27:31
Speaker 2: around that, and you know, certainly I've made my share
27:34
Speaker 2: of monster mistakes. And you know, sometimes you sometimes you're
27:39
Speaker 2: like I should have known better on that, and you learn,
27:42
Speaker 2: And that's the key. You fix things quickly and you learn,
27:45
Speaker 2: and you don't you don't assign blame to other people
27:48
Speaker 2: like I I find it. I'll take responsibility, and you know,
27:52
Speaker 2: sometimes I'll take a punishment for that. But going back
27:57
Speaker 2: to this last year where I was doing the campaigning
27:59
Speaker 2: and being away from my business, I knew things weren't
28:04
Speaker 2: as good as they were when I was there, and
28:06
Speaker 2: I knew that I was kind of the person that
28:08
Speaker 2: was more of the rain maker, and people knew me
28:11
Speaker 2: and they knew I wasn't there, and work did suffer
28:14
Speaker 2: a bit. Like I was just talking to one of
28:17
Speaker 2: the cal State clients that we have and they had
28:21
Speaker 2: us as an on call consultant and they didn't hire
28:24
Speaker 2: us again for this coming year because again there's a
28:27
Speaker 2: lot of competition. But they told me that the QAQC,
28:31
Speaker 2: the quality control quality assurance process is important, and that's
28:37
Speaker 2: something I probably could have tightened up in terms of
28:40
Speaker 2: going back to procedures and how I do think when
28:44
Speaker 2: I step away, I sometimes I assume that others are
28:47
Speaker 2: getting it done. And that's another thing is you get
28:51
Speaker 2: to trust but verify. I know that's an old saying
28:54
Speaker 2: from the past, but that's true as well. And even
28:57
Speaker 2: with written procedures and good people, well, that doesn't mean
29:01
Speaker 2: that things you shouldn't be you shouldn't still at least
29:04
Speaker 2: pay attention to it once in a while. And like
29:07
Speaker 2: I said, meeting people monthly, you're you're you're hearing it.
29:09
Speaker 2: I mean you're hearing what's going on and getting debriefs
29:13
Speaker 2: on clients as well. You know, it all goes back
29:16
Speaker 2: to communication.
29:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, well you alluded. I want to I want to
29:21
Speaker 1: talk about another you alluded just talked about the qa
29:24
Speaker 1: QC or the systems and the processes, and that's actually
29:27
Speaker 1: what you and I brought us together initially. I was
29:31
Speaker 1: the one of the founders of the Deltech at the
29:35
Speaker 1: time be Vision now they Advantage User group here in
29:39
Speaker 1: southern California, Orange County, La County. So you know, you
29:42
Speaker 1: had invested in the system to help you have your team,
29:45
Speaker 1: and you're like, okay, I've got to do a system
29:47
Speaker 1: that will help put things in place. Like you said,
29:52
Speaker 1: number one, you can check, you can see right, you
29:54
Speaker 1: can like track how are we doing in these things?
29:56
Speaker 1: So like and I need to be able to look
29:58
Speaker 1: at a glance, where are uh in the business? And
30:02
Speaker 1: so as you as you grow. When you when you started,
30:04
Speaker 1: you knew it all. You knew all the contracts, you
30:07
Speaker 1: knew all the clients, you knew what payments were coming in,
30:10
Speaker 1: you knew what was going out, but at a certain
30:12
Speaker 1: point you can't keep that all in your head. And
30:15
Speaker 1: so systems and processes have to come into play. And
30:20
Speaker 1: and so talk about that from your business growth phase,
30:24
Speaker 1: because like when what should the businesses be looking at?
30:27
Speaker 1: What was it like, Okay, I've got to now start
30:31
Speaker 1: to invest in de documenting a process or you know,
30:35
Speaker 1: we're having a pre built you know, system like our
30:39
Speaker 1: like like the Dell Tech products or something like that.
30:41
Speaker 1: But talk to us about like bringing in those implementing
30:45
Speaker 1: those systems and and how that has been for you
30:47
Speaker 1: of the course of of you know, your time in business.
30:52
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I mean if you look at any professional
30:55
Speaker 2: consulting type business, you know we're sending either probably sending
31:00
Speaker 2: out invoices to each one of those clients every month,
31:03
Speaker 2: and then you start to as you get more and
31:07
Speaker 2: more projects. We were working on three four hundred jobs
31:10
Speaker 2: per year, and I personally wasn't working on many of
31:15
Speaker 2: those just because they were in various phases and different
31:19
Speaker 2: engineers were working on it. And so that's a lot
31:22
Speaker 2: of projects to pay attention to. And you know, I
31:25
Speaker 2: think one of my lessons I remember I got a
31:28
Speaker 2: call from a client and he said, hey, I haven't
31:32
Speaker 2: seen the work on my project. How's that coming along?
31:36
Speaker 2: And I knew I remembered his name, and I'm like, oh, well,
31:40
Speaker 2: I'll check on that for you guy. So what was
31:42
Speaker 2: the address again? And he gave me the address of
31:44
Speaker 2: his project, and I realized I hadn't even started the job,
31:47
Speaker 2: like I had no. I was like sweating. I had
31:51
Speaker 2: no idea what the project was. It had gotten filed
31:54
Speaker 2: already and nobody started it. And it was so I
31:58
Speaker 2: spent like which I was very efficient in engineering, so
32:02
Speaker 2: I was able to give up my weekend to get
32:05
Speaker 2: this thing together. So by the time Monday rolled around,
32:07
Speaker 2: I had plans and everything ready to go. But you know,
32:11
Speaker 2: had he not called and asked me, hey, how's my
32:14
Speaker 2: project coming on? Honestly, I would have never worked on
32:17
Speaker 2: the job. It was crazy. And so that made me
32:21
Speaker 2: just realize that I need a system. I need a
32:23
Speaker 2: way to make sure. And so you know, when you
32:26
Speaker 2: and I met, we were both using the Deltec Vision system,
32:30
Speaker 2: which is made for architects and engineers and contractors and
32:34
Speaker 2: professional service companies, and it gives you a way to
32:38
Speaker 2: have everything all in one place is not just a
32:41
Speaker 2: CRM system, but also it's the whole project management system
32:44
Speaker 2: and resource planning and proposals, and it kind of puts
32:48
Speaker 2: the whole thing together. And so you were one of
32:50
Speaker 2: those people that was kind of in this project management group.
32:53
Speaker 2: A lot of the people were in the accounting group,
32:55
Speaker 2: a lot of finance people, but there was there were
32:59
Speaker 2: people like you and I biologists, engineers that we're using
33:03
Speaker 2: the project management part. And so that's where you and
33:05
Speaker 2: I think you were leading that group. I told you
33:09
Speaker 2: about this IE access system where we every week we
33:12
Speaker 2: would just every single active project, we would just go
33:15
Speaker 2: top to bottom A to Z, just to make sure
33:18
Speaker 2: that that I never got a call again saying hey,
33:20
Speaker 2: how's my project going and realizing I have no idea
33:23
Speaker 2: what's going on in that project because it's sitting in
33:26
Speaker 2: some file cabinet and I mistakenly just filed it and
33:29
Speaker 2: didn't even start working on it. So we don't we
33:32
Speaker 2: don't make that mistake anymore. We go through we make
33:36
Speaker 2: sure we asked hard questions. You know, why are we
33:38
Speaker 2: over budget? How do we what are the roadblocks? How
33:40
Speaker 2: do we get through this project? Do we need change orders?
33:45
Speaker 2: Any any lesson because I think I think the communication
33:49
Speaker 2: and openly talking about it and once again setting aside
33:53
Speaker 2: the personalities and the blame of you know, who did
33:56
Speaker 2: what wrong and versus a how do we work together
33:59
Speaker 2: to to solve the problem. Because if I knew poorly,
34:03
Speaker 2: everyone does poorly, and same with any person in the organization.
34:06
Speaker 2: We're a small group, so you know, one person can
34:09
Speaker 2: just destroy everything, so we got to make sure they're
34:12
Speaker 2: all strong well.
34:13
Speaker 1: And this is something you know, I worked with your
34:15
Speaker 1: team last year. I thought was good. You're trying to
34:18
Speaker 1: balance the people and the efficiencies and the systems and
34:20
Speaker 1: making the most out of the process of the system
34:23
Speaker 1: making it useful, right, So you know, we what I
34:27
Speaker 1: I think it's important. I would love you to talk
34:30
Speaker 1: with a little bit more about this is is we
34:32
Speaker 1: want to have creativity, we have innovation, we want have
34:35
Speaker 1: some flexibility, right, but we also have to be you know,
34:39
Speaker 1: in that make sure that we're balancing efficiencies and the
34:45
Speaker 1: things that need to get done. And so there's there's
34:48
Speaker 1: you know, I worked with a couple of your employees
34:50
Speaker 1: last year where there some people had different focuses on
34:52
Speaker 1: like how things should be done right and processes and
34:54
Speaker 1: so ones like very specific another person that can we
34:57
Speaker 1: be flexible and so there was like a meeting of
34:59
Speaker 1: the minds we've worked on to get there.
35:02
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean even as an older, mature company like ours,
35:09
Speaker 2: I think sometimes we try we try to accommodate clients
35:13
Speaker 2: or our employees. Like what we'll say, Okay, yeah, I
35:16
Speaker 2: get it, we're using this del Tech system for project management.
35:19
Speaker 2: But you're saying that because you have so many jobs
35:23
Speaker 2: and you that are moving so fast, you'd rather just
35:25
Speaker 2: kind of use a Google sheet or something just to
35:27
Speaker 2: monitor things. And all of a sudden, you got that
35:30
Speaker 2: going on plus the del Tech plus something else, and
35:35
Speaker 2: you it's kind of like what they say about business owners.
35:38
Speaker 2: It's like, just be the you know, run the company.
35:41
Speaker 2: Don't try to be everyone's friend. It's kind of the
35:43
Speaker 2: same sort of thing. Yes, they they would love to
35:48
Speaker 2: use some system that they're comfortable and use, but honestly,
35:51
Speaker 2: if one person goes astray using a different system, you've
35:55
Speaker 2: got to stick with the systems that's working. You know,
35:57
Speaker 2: it works, and you were able to come in and
36:00
Speaker 2: help us refocus those efforts on you know, going back
36:04
Speaker 2: to the civil structure, it was the structural team that
36:06
Speaker 2: was kind of in a different office using something slightly different,
36:10
Speaker 2: had a different mindset, and you helped us help them
36:16
Speaker 2: understand the importance of being consistent using the procedures. And
36:20
Speaker 2: so we've eliminated all those systems. Thanks to your help,
36:24
Speaker 2: we're able to focus that. Of course we have other problems.
36:26
Speaker 1: But of course there's always does that. It's never perfect, no,
36:32
Speaker 1: And I think what you said, John was important. You
36:34
Speaker 1: had a system, you work through that system sometimes. I
36:39
Speaker 1: was just talking to a chief information officer yesterday and
36:42
Speaker 1: he was talking about the graveyard of all these other
36:44
Speaker 1: like applications to get dropped, brought in or a new
36:47
Speaker 1: system and it gets half baked and then it just
36:50
Speaker 1: sits there. And so just encouraging that we absolutely need systems,
36:55
Speaker 1: we absolutely need processes, and it's important to get buy in,
36:58
Speaker 1: like you said, John, from the whole team, because if
37:02
Speaker 1: one person just says I got the new system of
37:04
Speaker 1: the process, I'm going to go with it, but you
37:05
Speaker 1: don't have other people that are buying into that, and
37:07
Speaker 1: everyone starts with their own right It's really hard to
37:09
Speaker 1: scale a company that way, and everybody starts to doing
37:12
Speaker 1: it their own own way.
37:14
Speaker 2: Right, Well, that's right, And we're an engineering company where
37:18
Speaker 2: we're not a we're not an accounting company. We're not
37:21
Speaker 2: a company that creates software, I mean softwares, and those
37:26
Speaker 2: things are tools for us to use so that we
37:28
Speaker 2: could focus on what we do well, which is civil
37:31
Speaker 2: and structural engineering. So I think we probably, I think
37:38
Speaker 2: we try to outsmart ourselves, right, I mean, we we
37:42
Speaker 2: have something that works good enough, And I think there's
37:45
Speaker 2: some phrase about, you know, perfection is the enemy of
37:48
Speaker 2: good enough, and I think that's kind of true. What
37:51
Speaker 2: happened to us is, you know, I tried to be
37:53
Speaker 2: a little more flexible and nice. Let people kind of
37:56
Speaker 2: hate try that out. They thought it'd be better. It
37:58
Speaker 2: just wasn't. I knew, I knew better, So I should
38:02
Speaker 2: have just put my foot down and said, like this
38:03
Speaker 2: is what we use, m use it right.
38:07
Speaker 1: Well, So to that end, I want to, you know,
38:11
Speaker 1: get into maybe this part a little bit more of
38:13
Speaker 1: the balancing the people and the processes. So, like you
38:17
Speaker 1: said that, there's a literally this challenge of keeping people
38:21
Speaker 1: and processes in harmony as best as you can, right,
38:25
Speaker 1: And one of the things I worked with your team
38:27
Speaker 1: was if like who's response like, where's the handoff in
38:30
Speaker 1: the process? Right? If this is the system or this
38:33
Speaker 1: is the process, is it clear in the organization? Where
38:37
Speaker 1: like in a relay race, where is the handoff? And
38:39
Speaker 1: if it's not clear, you're probably gonna have a fumble
38:41
Speaker 1: or something like, something's gonna get missed, right, John.
38:44
Speaker 2: Well, that's right. I mean if everyone thinks it's someone
38:48
Speaker 2: else's responsibility and then it's nobody's responsibility. And so what
38:53
Speaker 2: you're referring to is we had a sales director and
38:56
Speaker 2: a kind of a proposal coordinator. Honestly, the two of
39:00
Speaker 2: them didn't like each other that much. They were not
39:03
Speaker 2: huge fans of each other. They just had different personalities.
39:06
Speaker 2: And I guess it's okay that people don't like each other,
39:09
Speaker 2: but they still need to work together. And I think
39:12
Speaker 2: when you don't have a clear direction in terms of
39:16
Speaker 2: you know, how that handoff works, and and proposals are complicated,
39:20
Speaker 2: like you you know the meat of the proposal in
39:24
Speaker 2: terms of scope of work and technical things need to
39:27
Speaker 2: be done by experts. A lot of other things are
39:30
Speaker 2: just kind of templates and formatting and grammar and you know,
39:34
Speaker 2: all that good stuff, and that doesn't necessarily have to
39:36
Speaker 2: be a licensed engineer to put all that together, and
39:39
Speaker 2: then someone needs to also understand the client. And so
39:42
Speaker 2: a lot of times it's the you know, that salesperson
39:45
Speaker 2: that's knows the client brought the job in, they need
39:51
Speaker 2: to and if they're not an engineer, which in that case,
39:54
Speaker 2: in our case, he wasn't an engineer. He was trying
39:57
Speaker 2: to bring in jobs of a technical nature, but maybe
40:02
Speaker 2: couldn't exactly describe what the full scope of work was.
40:06
Speaker 2: So then you have to have it in here, call
40:08
Speaker 2: the client and go through all that stuff. And so
40:11
Speaker 2: there there was a lot of you know, who does
40:14
Speaker 2: what and what order and what procedure and how soon
40:17
Speaker 2: can you do it? You don't want to sit on
40:19
Speaker 2: uh sales proposals too long. You know, clients many times
40:23
Speaker 2: need to hire someone somewhat fairly quickly. Times they're choosing
40:28
Speaker 2: between a couple other companies. And you know, the whole
40:33
Speaker 2: sales cycle is a is a it's an art. There's
40:37
Speaker 2: a whole art to the whole sales process. So we
40:40
Speaker 2: we needed clarity in terms of how those proposals were
40:43
Speaker 2: being built and and you were able to help us
40:46
Speaker 2: build those procedures and put the actual title of the
40:49
Speaker 2: person that would be responsible for that, and and then
40:52
Speaker 2: and then you didn't just do that, but then you
40:54
Speaker 2: went back and you showed them how to use the tools.
40:57
Speaker 2: You know, I think that's the other thing is I
40:59
Speaker 2: could tell people, well, this is what we use. But
41:01
Speaker 2: if you don't show them how to use it, and
41:03
Speaker 2: you don't provide them those written procedures on things to
41:06
Speaker 2: follow when someone's not in the office to show them,
41:09
Speaker 2: it gets pretty frustrating. Kind of go back to that
41:11
Speaker 2: story of the guy that only worked two weeks for me.
41:14
Speaker 2: You put people in a situation where they're just not comfortable.
41:18
Speaker 2: They're going to get comfortable somewhere else. They're going to
41:20
Speaker 2: say I don't like this, and they're going to leave.
41:22
Speaker 2: And you know, it's been a seller's market for many,
41:25
Speaker 2: many years. It's been hard to find very good engineers,
41:30
Speaker 2: and so salaries have been going up and the availability
41:34
Speaker 2: of good engineers has been going down. So you have
41:38
Speaker 2: to always find a way to make your work environment
41:43
Speaker 2: and the procedures simple enough to follow, but the work
41:48
Speaker 2: challenging enough to make it interesting. So you know, that
41:52
Speaker 2: gets into some of the let's keep the operational part
41:55
Speaker 2: as simple as possible, while we could focus on the
41:57
Speaker 2: things that are harder, which are in our technical wheelhouse.
42:00
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah, you hit so many different good topics there, John, No,
42:08
Speaker 1: it's all good. I think. Well, one of the ones
42:11
Speaker 1: you I hear is a lot of times people in
42:14
Speaker 1: companies I work with, this is very common. They'll write
42:17
Speaker 1: a process down and it's it's it's there in black
42:23
Speaker 1: and white. But just like we're human beings, we can
42:25
Speaker 1: interpret things differently. Like I interpreted that it's this way
42:29
Speaker 1: even though it's written down, I get it. And so
42:31
Speaker 1: it's like you have to have a written down absolutely,
42:33
Speaker 1: But like what you're saying, John, is earlier we said
42:36
Speaker 1: having somebody mentor or somebody coming alongside as to let
42:40
Speaker 1: me guide you through this so you can understand how
42:43
Speaker 1: it's being applied, how it's being implemented, even though it's
42:45
Speaker 1: all written there. I mean, you and I have known this.
42:49
Speaker 1: Just just think about RFPs. We get a request for proposals,
42:52
Speaker 1: it's all written out right, but then inevitably there's questions, right,
42:56
Speaker 1: there's always the time for questions and clarifications because even
42:59
Speaker 1: though it's really and it could be dozens of pages long,
43:03
Speaker 1: it's still left for interpretation, right, Well, I mean, I
43:10
Speaker 1: think we.
43:11
Speaker 2: Need to be careful about how much detail you have
43:14
Speaker 2: in procedures. And you know, I learned a lot about
43:18
Speaker 2: procedures through Sam Carpenter and the work the system and
43:22
Speaker 2: how he same sort of thing. An entrepreneur found himself
43:25
Speaker 2: doing literally everything down to making coffee and depositing checks.
43:29
Speaker 2: And he realized as he brought in people, as long
43:33
Speaker 2: as he had enough of the procedures so someone else
43:35
Speaker 2: could come out come and do that sort of task. Now,
43:39
Speaker 2: I know, making coffee is not probably a procedure that
43:42
Speaker 2: we need to bother making. And I don't think you
43:45
Speaker 2: want to tell an engineer how to do every single
43:49
Speaker 2: bit of minution, because you've got to allow people their
43:51
Speaker 2: own flexibility to be creative. You know, I know a
43:55
Speaker 2: lot of people think engineering might not be a creative job,
43:58
Speaker 2: and engineering is one of the most creative jobs in
44:00
Speaker 2: the world. You think about it, like every civil engineering
44:05
Speaker 2: job that we work on is a one of a kind.
44:08
Speaker 2: And it's just like any artist, like any great artists,
44:10
Speaker 2: it's not a duplication of something else. It's every Every
44:14
Speaker 2: site is unique, every design, new design, building is unique,
44:20
Speaker 2: every plant, every you think about it. It's just it's
44:24
Speaker 2: a beautiful thing. Like it's it's so creative. So you
44:28
Speaker 2: have to allow an engineer to be able to flourish
44:31
Speaker 2: in a creative environment. You would never tell an artist
44:35
Speaker 2: how to paint something other than maybe the basics, you know,
44:39
Speaker 2: how to how to you know, put the canvas up,
44:42
Speaker 2: and how to prep the paint and the brushes and
44:47
Speaker 2: all that, But you're not going to tell them how
44:48
Speaker 2: to paint the painting necessarily, especially a master artist.
44:53
Speaker 1: Right, No, not at all. I mean I want to
44:56
Speaker 1: reiterate that for those that are listeners. So I've gotten
44:58
Speaker 1: work with John and engineers for years. From my biology background, obviously,
45:02
Speaker 1: John and I was always thought where it was just
45:05
Speaker 1: static and and and then we'd have challenges or issues
45:09
Speaker 1: come up, whether it's just say a biological resource is
45:11
Speaker 1: a stream or a tree or what whatever the resource
45:15
Speaker 1: might be. And then we would come back to the engineers,
45:16
Speaker 1: which is engineer something. And then we'd say, oh, I
45:19
Speaker 1: didn't this is new information I can be created and
45:22
Speaker 1: figure out how to engineer this in a way that
45:25
Speaker 1: still gets the job done, but it has to it
45:27
Speaker 1: takes in some other other things in consideration that weren't there.
45:30
Speaker 1: And I love that honestly about engineers. And it's like
45:34
Speaker 1: a challenge for them. It's like, oh, okay, this is
45:38
Speaker 1: if if nothing else, you know, if there's nothing else
45:41
Speaker 1: in the world that I have to consider, But now
45:42
Speaker 1: you're giving me new variables that have to come into
45:44
Speaker 1: and consider. Uh. And I very much appreciate the engineers
45:49
Speaker 1: and their ingenuity and their ability. And I think you're right.
45:53
Speaker 1: If we were to like knock every little thing and
45:56
Speaker 1: trying to lock it down, it would not be your
46:00
Speaker 1: company to be innovative and adjust And I think your
46:04
Speaker 1: team want to have that. That's what they like being engineers.
46:07
Speaker 2: Well, that's right. I mean they want to have the
46:10
Speaker 2: ability to well, certainly the younger ones they don't necessarily
46:14
Speaker 2: want to step out and be too creative. I think
46:16
Speaker 2: I think they're cautious, you know, they slowly walk out
46:19
Speaker 2: on the gang plank. But the ones that have been
46:22
Speaker 2: around for a while, they they want to kind of
46:24
Speaker 2: fly free and be able to have the ability to
46:27
Speaker 2: find good creative solutions. But and and remember creative solutions
46:32
Speaker 2: and engineering is really affordability, sustainability, and functionality. And those
46:39
Speaker 2: three words are huge, like just accomplishing each one is
46:43
Speaker 2: super difficult and but super critical as well. And I
46:47
Speaker 2: know that people that are listening to this, they're in
46:49
Speaker 2: careers that same sort of thing. They're they're providing value
46:53
Speaker 2: to their clients and and there's unique things that they
46:56
Speaker 2: provide to their clients. And I think it's critical that
47:00
Speaker 2: you allow your employees to have enough flexibility to make
47:05
Speaker 2: them feel empowered in their job, but at least have
47:09
Speaker 2: some guardrails to keep them within the confines of what
47:13
Speaker 2: the standard of care is so that they don't steer.
47:18
Speaker 2: And of course, you don't want your employees to get
47:21
Speaker 2: frustrated by forgetting how to I don't know, let's say
47:24
Speaker 2: send out a FedEx package or something simple like that.
47:27
Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds simple, but you know, where did
47:30
Speaker 2: you put the envelopes and where did you put the
47:32
Speaker 2: shipping labels? And those are sort of things you can
47:35
Speaker 2: provide in a procedure and in that way, people could
47:39
Speaker 2: just get about doing their job. And I know that's
47:40
Speaker 2: a very trite example, but if you think about your job,
47:44
Speaker 2: there's so many things you do on a day to
47:46
Speaker 2: day basis, and if you were to be sick for
47:49
Speaker 2: a month and your company relied on someone. They needed
47:53
Speaker 2: someone to replace you for that month while you're out,
47:56
Speaker 2: whether it's maternity leave or whatever. Those procedures are there
48:00
Speaker 2: to help bring in someone part time to get them
48:03
Speaker 2: up and running as as quick as possible, because sometimes
48:07
Speaker 2: those things happen. Sometimes your secretary or office administrator has
48:11
Speaker 2: to take some time off, people take vacations, yep, leave
48:16
Speaker 2: and so it actually helps the survivability of your company.
48:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's what I hear you're
48:22
Speaker 1: saying to you, is you're looking for opportunities, like you said,
48:25
Speaker 1: in a good way, Like if they're going to take
48:26
Speaker 1: time off, or is this a reoccurring issue that's coming
48:29
Speaker 1: up that we're seeing, It's like, oh, we probably it's
48:32
Speaker 1: not a one off, right, this is something that we're
48:34
Speaker 1: seeing regularly. Maybe we need to document a process so
48:37
Speaker 1: that way we could do this, streamline this better and
48:42
Speaker 1: help support our people and maybe people be getting stressed
48:44
Speaker 1: out because like I said, I don't know how this
48:46
Speaker 1: is done, but this keeps coming up and andy again,
48:51
Speaker 1: just documenting that process. I was just talking to a
48:53
Speaker 1: client today. They have a woman's going to be going
48:56
Speaker 1: on maternity to leave, So what's the process when she
48:58
Speaker 1: leaves or or I think think actually, John, I think great,
49:01
Speaker 1: well you mentioned that people are taking vacation time, you know,
49:05
Speaker 1: or an extended time off, like where do things get dropped?
49:10
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, we didn't know about that. We better
49:12
Speaker 1: document that right well.
49:15
Speaker 2: And and I guess another value to it is when
49:17
Speaker 2: you actually sit and write a procedure down, it helped.
49:21
Speaker 2: It helps you as well, like you you realize maybe
49:23
Speaker 2: there's things you could be doing different or better. Many
49:27
Speaker 2: times I'll go back to some of my sales procedures.
49:31
Speaker 2: Just think things like you know how how to work
49:34
Speaker 2: a room and networking room, and you know, going in
49:37
Speaker 2: and making sure you get there on time because everyone
49:39
Speaker 2: knows if you get your relate to a networking event,
49:43
Speaker 2: it's what do they call it, It's like cat comping
49:47
Speaker 2: in the in the box. Everyone's already clumped together in
49:49
Speaker 2: the box and it's hard to get in. So you know,
49:51
Speaker 2: just little things that you can remember to do because
49:56
Speaker 2: kind of following those right procedures and not skipping steps
49:59
Speaker 2: the best you can lead to the best results. So
50:03
Speaker 2: I think it's it's good for all of us to
50:04
Speaker 2: have procedures. You don't need to look at them all
50:06
Speaker 2: the time. You don't need to bust people's chops because
50:09
Speaker 2: they didn't follow exactly the way. You know, ultimately it's
50:12
Speaker 2: getting to the end result. But you know you don't
50:15
Speaker 2: want to miss too many steps because if you if
50:17
Speaker 2: you miss steps, then it comes back. I mean in
50:20
Speaker 2: our case, we do plans, construction plans. They get checked
50:23
Speaker 2: by people, and if we miss something, we're having to
50:26
Speaker 2: redo it and redo it and we are not done
50:28
Speaker 2: until it's done right. So I'm trying to do it
50:31
Speaker 2: as you can each time.
50:33
Speaker 1: Well and just as as we're coming to the end
50:36
Speaker 1: of the podcast, I just John, you spent a lot
50:39
Speaker 1: of time we worked on this, even for the the
50:42
Speaker 1: sales director role, Like some of these roles evolved and
50:46
Speaker 1: change and I think help them win.
50:47
Speaker 2: Right.
50:48
Speaker 1: You have to be really clear, like here's the here's
50:50
Speaker 1: the steps, here's the key you said meeting with your
50:52
Speaker 1: team monthly because I knew we looked at this. What
50:54
Speaker 1: are their metrics, what are they shooting for? What do
50:56
Speaker 1: they want to achieve? Right? And so you have to
50:58
Speaker 1: give them those guard rail, if you will, in a
51:01
Speaker 1: good way of saying, here's how you win in this position.
51:04
Speaker 1: These are the things that you're going to do. These
51:06
Speaker 1: are the steps, these are the things. If you do
51:07
Speaker 1: these things, or you make progress in this direction, we
51:10
Speaker 1: know we're winning. But if we're not tracking it, if
51:13
Speaker 1: we don't have anything measured. I'm working with another company
51:15
Speaker 1: right now where we're literally going through and updating all
51:17
Speaker 1: their roles and responsibilities and what are the key key
51:20
Speaker 1: performance indicators. Because they're just a newer company, they haven't
51:23
Speaker 1: written those, and they've got some new positions that are
51:25
Speaker 1: coming up, and so people are like, how do I
51:28
Speaker 1: balance how do I focus my time? Right? And so
51:30
Speaker 1: it's like, I know you've done that, John, and I
51:32
Speaker 1: want to you know, And but it's also probably good
51:35
Speaker 1: that you probably do is look at it periodically and
51:37
Speaker 1: say does that still make sense? Or do we need
51:39
Speaker 1: does it something need to be changed here right.
51:42
Speaker 2: All the time. And and like I said, we have
51:45
Speaker 2: company objectives that I look at every month and reevaluate,
51:50
Speaker 2: and those are some of them. Some of them are
51:51
Speaker 2: more traditional objectives. You know, of course I have sales goals,
51:56
Speaker 2: revenue goals, all that stuff. But it's interesting how and
52:00
Speaker 2: I use just to red and green there is no yellow,
52:04
Speaker 2: like I'm either doing it or I'm not doing it,
52:06
Speaker 2: and there's no excuses, and I won't beat myself up
52:10
Speaker 2: on stuff. I'll look at the red and say what
52:12
Speaker 2: were the roadblocks to that? And I'll realize that. I'll
52:16
Speaker 2: give myself a list of things that need to be
52:18
Speaker 2: improved every month, and then from there I'll figure out
52:23
Speaker 2: and talk to the right people and that'll go downstream
52:26
Speaker 2: to their objectives as well, because they come up with
52:29
Speaker 2: ways to fix things I don't. I'd rather solve the
52:32
Speaker 2: problem and a team of people than try to solve
52:34
Speaker 2: everything myself. And I like challenging my team too and
52:38
Speaker 2: tell them some of our I'll say, O, Hey, the
52:40
Speaker 2: economy's been tough. You know, interest rates are high, people
52:45
Speaker 2: aren't the building industry has slowed a bit. Hey, what
52:49
Speaker 2: type of things do you think we should be pursuing
52:51
Speaker 2: over the next six months Because it looks like it's
52:54
Speaker 2: going to stay this way for a while. And honestly,
52:57
Speaker 2: my employees are they pay attention to what's going on
53:00
Speaker 2: in the world y. I get some great ideas from
53:02
Speaker 2: my employees. I think that's the last thing I want
53:04
Speaker 2: to leave you with, David, is that, yes, don't don't
53:06
Speaker 2: think you know everything listen to your employees. You've got
53:09
Speaker 2: some amazing ideas and and they love being listened to,
53:13
Speaker 2: by the way.
53:14
Speaker 1: Yes they do, Yes they do. This is great, John,
53:17
Speaker 1: were I just want of the one more questions. We're
53:20
Speaker 1: wrapping up here. What do you see? What do you
53:22
Speaker 1: see for the future of GMC squared. What's your kind
53:24
Speaker 1: of vision as you see going forward? You've been doing
53:27
Speaker 1: it for almost thirty years here, Gosh, it's amazing. That's
53:30
Speaker 1: so impressive, really is you know? And you you've you've
53:35
Speaker 1: you've taken another your structural firm, you you acquired a firm,
53:39
Speaker 1: you merge the I mean, you've accomplished a lot of things. John,
53:42
Speaker 1: What do you see for GMC squared you know going forward?
53:46
Speaker 2: Well, I mean you know that there's potential politics in
53:50
Speaker 2: the future as well as I might run again for
53:52
Speaker 2: Relli County Supervisor. And you know, if I'm going to
53:56
Speaker 2: do that, I don't do things just to fail. I
53:59
Speaker 2: do things to see, just like anyone that's an entrepreneur would.
54:04
Speaker 2: But you know, I guess if that were to be
54:06
Speaker 2: the case and I were not working at JAMC Square,
54:10
Speaker 2: I would love to see, you know, either the current
54:13
Speaker 2: managers take over and take over ownership role or or
54:18
Speaker 2: or if I were to divest the company, I would
54:22
Speaker 2: of course want to have people that have the same
54:25
Speaker 2: fervor for you know what we do, the passion for
54:29
Speaker 2: design and engineering. I wouldn't going back to that time
54:34
Speaker 2: when I was not a business owner and saw the
54:37
Speaker 2: companies I work for just get sold and it basically
54:41
Speaker 2: ruined the career of people that were well, didn't ruin
54:43
Speaker 2: our career, it just changed our path, right, I mean,
54:46
Speaker 2: we were there, we had a great opportunity, but then
54:48
Speaker 2: the opportunity was gone. We weren't there anymore. And so
54:51
Speaker 2: I don't I don't want that. I don't. I would
54:53
Speaker 2: like to see that jmc squared lives on for as
54:56
Speaker 2: long as it can, and whether it's myself or ownership
55:00
Speaker 2: that has a good passionate fervor and maybe a new
55:03
Speaker 2: passionate fervor. But you know, being a business owner is
55:08
Speaker 2: a blessing, you know, having the ability to be able
55:13
Speaker 2: to do it and take the risk in this country
55:16
Speaker 2: and and fail and succeed, they're both very rewarding. Honestly,
55:21
Speaker 2: you can't really have real success without real failure. And
55:23
Speaker 2: so I would say to people, don't be afraid of that.
55:27
Speaker 2: You know, do what you believe in and always do
55:30
Speaker 2: what your where your gut takes you to. Because people
55:33
Speaker 2: are good people. They they they know what's right, and
55:37
Speaker 2: and don't don't negative people bring you down. Like I
55:40
Speaker 2: think That's the other thing is a lot of people
55:42
Speaker 2: will tell you. When I first started, everyone a lot,
55:45
Speaker 2: not everyone, but many people told me it's not going
55:48
Speaker 2: to work for you. You're going to be back working for
55:50
Speaker 2: someone else. And there were a few people that believed
55:53
Speaker 2: in me, and and of course I still are friends
55:57
Speaker 2: with all of those people that believed in me, and
55:58
Speaker 2: even the people that didn't believe. But don't ever stop
56:02
Speaker 2: believing yourself, I think is the key.
56:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, And John, I mean just from my knowing you
56:07
Speaker 1: for all these years, you surround yourself with great people
56:10
Speaker 1: that want to rise up with you, your your employees. You're
56:14
Speaker 1: such a respected leader and I'm just so honored to
56:19
Speaker 1: have you here on the podcast, getting to work with
56:21
Speaker 1: you over the years and to see all that you've
56:24
Speaker 1: accomplished and what is to come for James' Squarat and
56:27
Speaker 1: and possibly politics as well. John, It's just it's just
56:30
Speaker 1: an honor to have you here. So thanks so much
56:32
Speaker 1: for coming on the podcast.
56:35
Speaker 2: David. It's always an honor being with you. I always
56:37
Speaker 2: enjoy listening to your wonderful questions and your great insight.
56:41
Speaker 2: You're the best.
56:42
Speaker 1: Thanks everybody. Make sure you would like subscribe. We would
56:46
Speaker 1: love to have you. I know John would love to
56:48
Speaker 1: hear from you if you guys have any engineering questions
56:50
Speaker 1: or just you know, he's he's great here in southern California.
56:53
Speaker 1: He knows the region, uh, and so find John. He's
56:57
Speaker 1: on LinkedIn. We'll make sure we include you John on
57:00
Speaker 1: our show notes and everything like that, so where they
57:02
Speaker 1: can find James Squared connect with you again. Thanks everybody
57:06
Speaker 1: for listening and until next time, take care everybody. Thanks
57:09
Speaker 1: for thanks so much