Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 151: Josh Katz on Finding Balance: An Olympian’s Quest for Purpose Beyond Sport

Transcript

151: Josh Katz on Finding Balance: An Olympian’s Quest for Purpose Beyond Sport · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What shifted for you?
• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You know you're leaving school.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Judo is on the rise for you.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: At that point, what happened next?
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: So I was really fortunate that a couple of months after I sort of finished school, I'd spent quite a lot of time training in England when I was sort of towards the end of high school at a full-time center in the South of England called Cambridge Judo Club, where we'd sort of been exposed to some really high level athletes that had been to the Olympics, met at the Olympics before, like really really amazing athletes, and that sort of strengthened my connection to the goals that I had with Judo when I saw these other people that had already achieved what I wanted, that this was something I really really wanted to do, so after I finished high school was travelling, was sort of training a lot in England as well, and that this was something I really really wanted to do.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: So after I finished high school was traveling, was sort of training a lot in England as well, and managed to have some faster success than probably I was expecting and what a lot of the coaches were expecting as well, and had put myself in a position to qualify for the Rio Olympics.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ryan Gonsalves and welcome to a Second Wind Academy podcast, a show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Each week, I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Don't worry, there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Elite athletes are still people after all.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Let's be inspired by the stories of others given to you by somebody else becomes really challenging to then for them to to then get up, set their own, set their own routine and pay for things find out stuff To be in charge.
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, and that's a skill, I suppose, for you in being or the way it's funded it not being a professional.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: It might be full time, but it's not a professional sport.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: You actually have to do a lot of that stuff yourself.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when you're're certainly when you're in it it feels like a huge disadvantage that you have to find the time to go and work and to make money.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: And how am I going to balance all these other things outside of training?
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Like, training schedule is normally pretty set, yeah, and you have to figure out how you're going to fit everything else in around it.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: But I think as you get a little bit older and probably closer towards the end of your career then the beginning you realize that it does give you a big advantage, probably not financially by the end of your career, but certainly like with the skills to be able to like transition into another career outside for sure.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: So in tennis they literally hire their coach one-on-one and they have that relationship and almost like that's their employment right in judo.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Is it like?
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, how is it, how is it structured in judo for your coaching?
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: so it does depend on where you're based.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: There are some coaches that are employed full-time to just coach, like the national team.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: So the Australian coach lives in Melbourne.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: He's paid full-time to be the Australian coach.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: And then there's other people around Australia that their job might be to coach their club, the athletes at their club.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: That could span across different age groups.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: There might be volunteer coaches that just do it because they love it, but typically the coach is always looking after a bunch of athletes.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: So my brother and my dad, who run, and my mom, who coach at my club in sydney yeah, they coach.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: My mom coaches athletes from 9 to 14.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: My brother and my dad coach athletes from 15 to me.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: So it's a big range, a lot of different experience levels, ability levels, but yeah, so they're coaching everybody at the same time, which is challenging, for sure, and I guess it's quite a different perspective than like a professional setting where everyone's at the same level doing the exact same thing.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: But it's just how you balance it.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, that is quite interesting really.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Why do you think that is?
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Probably just because of it's not a super viable full-time profession for many coaches Like there are lots of clubs around Australia that their full-time job is to run their judo club, which is great.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: But if that isn't what you want to do, as in time or energy or passion-wise, or maybe it's not feasible to get enough money from that judo club to be the only source of income.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: But I think for a lot of people, judo being like a small sport, people just have a big passion for it and not necessarily want to do it as their full-time job, they just love it.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: So my dad loves it, wants to do it all the time but has never wanted to take a full-time income from it.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Just loves to coach, right.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: So he coaches a lot and enough to make a lot of money from it, but he just doesn't.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: That's not what he wants to do, he's got to cover the costs and yeah, basically get him there and give him enough to make most of his time.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: God is a commitment, so yeah, it's a passion as well, right, yeah?
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: you've got to be passionate to be a coach for sure, for sure.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: I think it's quite selfish sometimes being an athlete, because you only have to ever worry about yourself.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: And it's a hard, it's you, it's very hard.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: You've got to do a lot of work over a real long period of time, yeah, but you're only ever worrying about yourself, whereas the coach often takes that sort of burden from everybody at the same time.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: So, certainly when you're working with lower level athletes or younger, challenges are much less intense.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: But, um, I'm not super envious of the coaches that travel four or five months a year looking after 10, 15 athletes at the same time.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they take all of their struggles.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Everyone goes to the coach with their problems and they don't want to listen to the coach's problems.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, um, yeah, I think it's you got to be pretty strong-willed, I think, to just like absorb all of that difficulty from all the athletes all the time and then still be positive and like give back to them all the time.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: I think it's tough, yeah, so do you have that passion to be a coach?
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: I love coaching and I do a fair bit of coaching with the juniors at my club, sort of up to like 17-ish years old.
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: I would never, I don't think I would ever want to do like an olympic style coaching.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: I don't think I have the drive to want to travel all the time and to do it at such a stressful, intense level.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I love judo, yeah, and I think when you do it at a younger age or slightly even up to like a national level, you can do it, you can enjoy it and it's a little bit less stressful.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: There's obviously things on do it, you can enjoy it and it's a little bit less stressful.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: There's obviously things on the line when you're competing, but it's not the end of the world, whereas when are you traveling, at the big, big tournaments, war championships, olympic qualification it's people's dreams on the line and I don't think that's something I want to do.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: I think once I check out of competing, I want to give back to judo and help juniors and help even adolescents, teenagers, but seniors can.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Someone else's problem.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: So when you think about yourself now competing and doing that travel right, your dream's on the line.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you see your coach sort of determining the outcome of that dream?
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: Or do you see that as yourself, as an athlete?
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I think just myself as an athlete.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Certainly they help contribute to you achieving the dream, but I don't think it's fair to ever put a blame or onus on the coach if you don't achieve your dream.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: I don't think that's a fair thing to do, and some people do, because they're looking for some excuse or reason for why they haven't been able to achieve everything they ever wanted.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: But I think that maybe the coach doesn't always positively impact you, but it's never their fault, like they are only there ultimately to try to help you achieve your goals.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: And I mean I've done it.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: I've been at some really big highs and some really big lows as well, and often it's the same coaches there for both of them.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: So they really experience like the whole spectrum of emotions, from you crying in a corridor when you lost first round of the competition to winning a medal, and you're like celebrating and overjoyed.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: so yeah there's so much that goes in between, and I think that's why you have like quite a special relationship connection with your coach, especially if you've been your coach for a really long time.
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I guess.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: So Well, look, josh, we've just kept talking all the way through.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: So I mean we've kicked into the podcast, so welcome.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: I should formally say to the show Listen, we'll just keep chatting as as we are, because it is.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: It's quite fascinating because having this conversation with you, this show is all about career clarity and and really helping athletes find and others who are listening and watching find that I guess that career clarity throughout their life.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Um, for us as athletes, typically we have a real hard boom, stop, um, I'm not competing anymore, right, at least at an elite level.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: Now you know what do I do.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: It's great getting to chat with you because you haven't finished.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: You you may, hopefully not, no, yeah, you haven't finished, you haven't finished.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: You are mid olympic cycle, right?
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: So you know we're talking about what's the next olympics and I'm here convincing you.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: You gotta be here for brisbane as well.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I like your optimism.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: That's it right, you're as old as the person you fight.
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know we'll do that.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: So, look, it's going to be good just chatting with you about sort of what's got you to the to this point now, but certainly really interested in the things you're doing outside of the game that are helping set, set you up, um, looking at some of those strengths that you're using and really look back and or help those who are listening and watching to think oh, how might I replicate?
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Or do do things there as well?
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: So beautiful.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: Thanks for coming in today, great um.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: Now look, we were chatting about coaching and um, you know who owns that dream.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: You know you're speaking there about you as the athlete is owning that.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I suppose I'm interested for you.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Growing up in a household of judo champions and your people certainly of high judo pedigree, how did that shape your, I guess, attraction to sport?
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the Olympics was always something that was a theme in our house.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: My mom competed at the Olympics, my dad had coached the Olympics.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: So very sport loving family straight away.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: They loved judo but they loved sport as well.
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: So all throughout my childhood, growing up, my older brother, nathan, and I we loved sport.
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: We would watch all the different sports on TV, tried them all, loved the Olympics every time it came around.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: So the Olympics was always like a dream that we had together, didn't necessarily know it was going to be in judo.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: I thought for a really long time I would play soccer or football.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: I thought that would always be my dream and then, just naturally, as I started to get a little bit older, found more success in judo.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: But more than the success in judo.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: I really loved the training part of judo more than I ever loved in any of the other sports.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: I always loved competing in other sports but I never loved the training that much.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: I would really struggle to go in the backyard and kick the ball around by myself.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: I just found that quite boring.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: But I would always love going to judo and fighting and scrapping and getting amongst that like super high energy output all the time, if I got exhausted from judo, that was like a really nice feeling that I enjoyed, yeah.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: So I think I started moving towards that direction a little bit more and then, around about the age of 15, stopped playing soccer, was all in on judo.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Around the same time I got the chance to fight overseas for the first time represent australia yeah sort of under 18's age and then I think from that point on was just locked in that judo was what I wanted to do and my parents were really supportive.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: They ultimately were happy for me to do whatever sport I wanted to do.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I think they secretly were hoping I would do judo.
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: How secretly they both turned up to every judo event Football.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: They were like oh yeah you just make your own way there, son.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: You do what you want.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: They were really supportive and there wasn't a pressure from them to choose judo.
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: I know it made their life a lot easier that instead of just going to soccer and judo in this place, this place, we just went to the one place all the time.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: Um, but I think in the end they they knew that it had to come from me, like they knew that judo is way too hard a sport to do.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: If I was doing it for them, if I wanted to tell me about that, what do you mean?
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: It's just too.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: It's too hard over too long, with not enough extrinsic reward to do it for anybody else.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: You have to motive, you have to be self-motivated, you have to want.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: It has to be your dream to start with.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: I've seen it with lots of different athletes that I grew up with, that my brother grew up with athletes that come long time before me and after me that they're doing it for a parent or somebody else or because they think that's what they want.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: And then eventually you get to 18, 19, 20, you have independence, you have to take yourself to training, you have to work to save up the money to fly yourself to different competitions around the world and at that point.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: If it's not your dream, if you're doing for someone else so you just eventually dies, maybe one bad injury, all of a sudden you're doing six months of rehab by yourself.
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: It has to come from you and I think my parents knew that because they had experienced it themselves right.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: So they only wanted me to do judo if it was something that I wanted to do.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: And if I did judo and just wanted to do it for fun, fight at the state state titles yeah national titles, then that would have been fine too.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: but when I sort of made the commitment that I really wanted to do judo at a really high level, try to get to Olympics, try to win a medal at the Olympics, then they were supportive of that.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: But they tried to sort of also educate me and my brother at a pretty young age that it was going to take a lot of work, like this wasn't just going to happen either.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: So when you were younger, what dreams did you have?
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, you say Olympics, but you thought you're doing that football wise.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: What was the?
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: You know how clear as you look back.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: How clear was that dream for judo?
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: It probably was quite gray until about around 15, I think, when I sort of just loved sport and knew that sport was the route I wanted to go, and whether that was the Olympics or playing professional soccer or playing tennis or whatever it was gonna be, I knew it was gonna be sport.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I just didn't really hadn't narrowed it down yet, but I did have this always this emotional connection to the Olympics, whether it was family connection or something that my brother and I could do together, that he wasn't playing the other sports I was doing so like judo was the thing that we could both do together.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, which is another really exciting part of it that certainly at a young age we never fully could appreciate the experiences that we would have later on.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: But as it got closer and closer towards making, I guess, some of those dreams real, then we could appreciate that we get to do this thing together all the time, which is pretty cool so parents both judo, older brother judo you, you're moving into judo.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Did school have any relevance?
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: in your life at any point.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: It's a funny question that I get asked a lot, because the assumption is that mom and dad coaching nathan and I both competing, that all that all we ever did was train, that they just pushed us into judo all the time.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: We train six hours a day, every day.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but my parents were super strict on school to the point where I used to give me the shits all the time because it was if you didn't do well at school, we wouldn't take you to training.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: We wouldn't take you to training, we wouldn't take you to the competition.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: Judo school was number one for them, which seems funny because they were coaching us and wanted us to achieve our goals in judo.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: But I think they knew from their experiences that judo wouldn't be your full-time income.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Just from competing you can make money from judo, but you couldn't make a salary that was livable for your whole career.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: It just wouldn't be realistic compared to other professional systems where all you have to worry about sometimes is playing.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: You get enough money from playing.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: That that's all you have to do, and they knew that that wouldn't be the case for judo.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: So they always pushed us really hard in school just to give us options while we were still competing and then for after we finished competing as well.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: So, whether we liked it or not, we were studying hard in year 11 and year 12 to do well at school.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Didn't even know what uni course I wanted to do at school but they said you have to do really well so you can do whatever you want to do.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in the end my degree I probably needed 20 marks less than I actually got in my year 12 exam.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: But it was just a lesson that if you work hard, you can do both.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can do both.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: It's achievable.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: You just got to work harder.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess it was good that your parents saw that.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, I suppose it's funny because, yeah, you're right, the assumption must be well, hold on no-transcript.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Pull back from other things.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: I couldn't spend as much time with my friends.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: I couldn't do spend as much time relaxing and socializing and doing the other things that kids my age were doing, because I was all in on judo and I needed to be all in on school.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: So I only had so much time every day and I was exhausted half the time because I was trying to study and do judo.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that a lot of that time that I was in between I just had to rest a little bit as well and try to get some sort of sleep.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: So it was definitely a challenge during that period because I had to be very different to what a lot of other people were doing.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: And I guess that's where that self-motivation comes from, because it would have been really easy at that point to just say I'm just going to take this year sort of off judo because it's really hard with school, and then I'll sort of dive back into judo next year.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: And I knew I mean I didn't know then, but we see the same with all the athletes now that we help coach that are coming through, when they're sort of in year 12.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: They're like I'm going to pull back from judo this year and then I'll be more committed next year.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: But if you can't balance it in year 12, you're never going to be able to balance it next year.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: You've got uni, year after that you've got a job and you've got a girlfriend or boyfriend, whatever it is like.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: You've always got something else going on.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: If you can't balance it in school which realistically is stressful as a 17 year old, but it's not that hard like you, have no other responsibility, all you have, all you have to do is be at school for six hours.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: You got no other life responsibility.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: So if you can't balance sport and school at that age, then you're never going to be able to balance sport.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Anything else I don't think what do you think helped you to balance that period, because you say it is an important part of, I think, for many athletes.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: By that time, typically you're feeling national, international championships, tournaments, rankings starting to happen.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: What do you think helped you with that balance at that age?
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I think I had a really, definitely a really strong connection to the goals I wanted to achieve with judo.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: But I also just saw it as this is just something I have to get through now and then, after I finished school, I can just do judo.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: In my head I was like, once I finish school, I'm not going to study, I'm not going to do anything, all I'm going to do is judo.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: So in my head I thought I've just got to get through this next six months, nine months of school, and then after that my parents aren't going to tell me what to do anymore.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Full time, yeah, um.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: And then I guess, once I had finished that I had some quick success, I guess in judo, and had some more opportunities.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: I wasn't really expecting straight away, but talk about that success.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: Then what?
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: What shifted for you?
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: You know you, you're leaving school, judo is on the rise.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: For you at that point, what?
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: What happened next?
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: so I was really fortunate that a couple months after I sort of finished school, we'd spend a.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I'd spent quite a lot of time training in England when I was sort of towards the end of high school at a full-time center in the south of England called Cambridge Judo Club.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: We'd sort of been exposed to some really high-level athletes that had been to the Olympics, medaled at the Olympics before, like really really amazing athletes that had been to the Olympics, medaled at the Olympics before, like really really amazing athletes, and that sort of strengthened my connection to the goals that I had with judo when I saw these other people that had already achieved what I wanted that this was something I really really wanted to do.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: So after I finished high school was traveling, was sort of training a lot in England as well, and managed to have some faster success than probably I was expecting and what a lot of the coaches were expecting as well, and had put myself in a position to qualify for the Rio Olympics the following year.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: I finished school, 2015, and qualified for Rio April 2016.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: So that was quite an overwhelming experience and certainly something that I took for granted at the time, that I just assumed that this would be.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this is cool.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I qualified for the Olympics.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: I'm still only 18, so like I'll do this again, and again, and again.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: How many Olympics do you reckon I could go to?
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Like that was sort of my thinking as a as a young, I say naive, but dumb kid as well we'll go with naive.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, we'll go with naive.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, is your experience?
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: You're stepping into that and you have just qualified for the Olympics.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: In terms of your dreams achieving that 18, 19, how did it feel?
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: It was amazing, I mean, and my brother had qualified for that Olympics in Rio as well, so I guess it wasn't that many years ago before that that it was still just these two kids that dreamed of going to the olympics one day together.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly never something that we thought that we would do at that.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: On that year.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: Our goal was always to try to get to tokyo 2020 both be sort of early 20s sort of the peak of our career, that what we thought would be the peak of our career, and it was happening for me at 18 and my brother at 21.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So, um, that was just a very sort of whirlwind sort of three, four month period from probably april until july, when we competed at the olympics.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: There was just so much came at us that we weren't really expecting, like we're brothers qualifying for the olympics too.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: So we got a fair bit of media attention sort of on some ads for channel seven and doing stuff like that.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: And I was also just like a kid that was supposed to be doing uni.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: I just like I was.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: I was um enrolled to do my first year of uni and as soon as I qualified I was like uni's in the bin.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I was like I'm out for this year.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: So fortunate mom and dad were all right with that they were.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: It was a pretty good excuse to skip the first year of uni, I think yeah, yeah, I think the phrase is to defer yes, yeah, defer not skip, chuck it in the bin and move away
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: but have with you, but I guess, but that's the mindset, that's where you're at, it's like okay, this is the olympics.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Let me focus on that and, in some respects, what you wanted to happen uh, post school, effectively, you know did really within that that six months.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Now, to give me context, and certainly for those listening going to the olympics, yep, uh, great, there's 11 of you A squad, there's probably 20-odd of you going.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: In terms of judo, what weight class and how many athletes from Australia get there.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, what is that journey like to actually qualify for the Olympics for a judo athlete?
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: So the qualifying system has changed a few times, just in my career alone.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: So for the Rio cycle cycle up until that point it was sort of the hardest it had been.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: It went from it used to be qualifying just through oceana, which oceana is not the most competitive region in the world for judo.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: And then for the rio cycle we qualified through the world ranking list, but still with sort of with the support of competing within Oceania.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: So our team for Rio was four boys and three girls.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: From memory I was the youngest.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: We had a pretty young team, though I was 18.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: One of the other girls was 19.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: I think the oldest athlete in the team was 26.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: So a really young squad really.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: And then after that the system changed a fair bit.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Where we wouldn't compete in oceania anymore, we're competing in asia, now we compete in pan america.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: So we're the real gypsies of of the world and you know we just change continents every now and then.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: So, um, the tokyo cycle, there was only three athletes qualified paris only three.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: So you can, I guess, reflective of how much harder it's gotten over time, went from seven to three.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Three yeah, yeah.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: But I mean and I suppose just you know as I'm listening to that, I'm thinking well, that makes you probably number one in Australia to be able to do that.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Then you talk about in the region and world rankings so that you know achieving it at that young age, forget the idea of wanting to keep repeating it time and time again.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: But it does make it really challenging to actually get there.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: You've got to be number one, and some For sure.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: To start competing at the qualifying tournaments you have to be the number one in Australia to start with, and then you're typically not competing against other people.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Once you can sort of establish yourself as the number one in Australia, then you're just competing against other people.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Once you can sort of establish yourself as the number one in Australia, then you're just competing against other athletes that are your weight in the world.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm not exactly sure what it was for Rio, but now it's top 18 in the world in each weight category.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: So hundreds are competing all around the world, every at every competition, and then 18 end up getting there.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: So it's tough, like there's so many world-class athletes that miss out every time.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: But it's just the reality of it.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: It's tough.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: It is an example that getting there is the achievement.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: It's like you've made the Olympic finals.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: That in itself is the achievement.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: So, look, join that first campaign.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Getting there, you were fresh out of school, with parents.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: A lot of that that would continue.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I'm interested then, now, in this sort of period in between where you're balancing now you you've been to the olympics so you continue to try and compete, maintain number one status in in australia.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: What was that?
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: What was life like then?
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Were you full-time, um, funded, not having to work or do anything?
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: How did you manage to balance continuing to improve as an athlete whilst having to literally fund your life?
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: so after that olympic year, when I deferred my uni to the following year, I started back at uni doing most of it online, um, and we were spending.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: What were you studying?
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: I'll start.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: I did a double in exercise, sport science and sport management, so always loved sport.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Not sure if I would go down the science route, but I just sort of thought it'd give me some options as well, and my uni supported almost all of my degrees.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: So I thought no sort, it's easy for me just to study, that's okay, I can do that.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: But we were spending a lot of time overseas.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: There just wasn't enough what we thought at the time.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: There just wasn't enough people that we could train with at home in Australia to sort of get us to the level that we wanted to go to.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: So we were spending a lot of time overseas training at different sort of centers around the world just to try to get some more experience against really, really high level judo players from all around the world.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: And I guess every time you come back and forth just takes such a big toll on you that we just would spend longer periods away just to sort of cut the costs of going back and forth all the time.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: So we're studying, but was ultimately really reliant on the support of my parents as well.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Judo, finally, is a sport where I mean, like many olympic sports I'm sure other many olympic athletes have the same experiences you get a lot of financial support in the lead up to major events like an olympics or commonwealth games, and then the one year, two years following that there's very, very minimal and for the very top tier athletes that support stays all the time, but sort of the tier below, sort of the tier.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: I was at where I had been to the Olympics but I was still quite a long way off being able to medal at an Olympics or being in the top five, 10 in the world.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: That a lot of that support just was cut almost straight after the games in Rio.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: So all of a sudden now we're paying for a lot of our own judo trips.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: We're paying for probably 50% of most of the costs of our judo, which when you go into Europe, five, six times a year is a lot.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: So we're really lucky.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: Our parents supported us for I mean our whole career, but certainly during that period as well, and then we were just trying to do the best that we could.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: We, I guess fortunately because we had been to the Olympics as well, and then we were just trying to do the best that we could.
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: We, I guess fortunately because we had been to the olympics.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: We had a few more opportunities that we otherwise wouldn't have had in terms of work and sponsors, and things like that.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: What sorts of, what sort of opportunities came from you being at the olympics to help you with that funding journey?
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, just compared to other 19 year old athletes that hadn't been to the olympics before, we might have been similar level, but by saying I had, I'm an olympian, I could get opportunities to go to a present, do a presentation and get paid to do that, or a sponsor, when I'm just saying, oh, I've been to the olympics and they might offer you money or more money than somebody else, your age, so, um, a lot of those experiences were just off the back of that olympic experience, which super grateful for, um, but yeah, it was.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: It was certainly a challenge and we had a lot of difficulties balancing between we need to make more money and we need to develop our career.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: I also want to be better at judo.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: I'm not good enough.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I haven't achieved what I wanted to do in judo yet.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: So that was probably the period where the biggest challenge was just trying to find the balance between I need another career and I need another way of making money and supporting myself.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: But I can't keep pulling myself away from judo because I've only got so much time I can do in judo for as well, and I think that's still something I'm dealing with now.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: I want to have a successful career after judo.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: But judo is going to finish for me in the next, say, I think, three years, you think seven years, but it's going to finish for me within the next seven years for sure, and I've got so many years.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: After that I can continue my career and to make more money and to do all these other things.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: But you can't wait until your career is over to do those things.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: But also, you only have a limited window to succeed in sport as well.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: So that was what the challenge was during that period, for sure, and that was the first time I probably understood what that challenge is going to look like.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: But it's a problem.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: You deal with your whole career, even for me now.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so during that period and I guess now there's this run up to Tokyo kicking in.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Now I know the outcome perhaps wasn't quite right for Tokyo.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, talk to us about, I guess, that experience in that, that prep into Tokyo.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: I know COVID shifted things about, but for yourself it was hey, I'm doing that dream again what happened there so I had a couple of tough injuries during the sort of just before COVID.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: I had surgery, I think twice in sort of the two years before COVID, and COVID pretty much gave me a lifeline.
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: That it was.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: The Olympics got pushed back a whole year.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: If the Olympics was in 2020, I would have had no chance.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: It was just had missed too many competitions.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I was too far off.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: So for me I sort of looked at the Olympics getting pushed back another year as this opportunity that now I've got a whole year to just train and prepare.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: What I didn't realize was it's really hard to train and prepare in your garage at home.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: So we sort of spent that year doing the best that we could, and I was fortunate that I had my brother living with me so we could train a lot during that period.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: But we were looking at other countries around the world that were training all through covid like they didn't care one bit about getting sick or any of the regulations.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: So we were watching all these guys that we would be competing against, essentially just doing a training camp for 12 months, and we're just locked up in our garage doing some judo and running shoes, trying not to throw each other on concrete like that was essentially what our covid lockdown looked like.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: So it was definitely during that period where it was the first taste of what judo, what life would be like without traveling anymore, without competing anymore.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: It's quite an extreme version because you're not even really leaving your house, but that was where I started spending a lot more time on study, trying to think about what other ways I could upskill and trying to develop myself like professionally that I would have more options once I finished judo as well.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: I knew I still had a lot of time left in judo, but it was the first time I had a lot of time now that.
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: I could actually just spend doing some other things as well yeah, so on, what came up?
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: what types of things did you figure out?
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Hey, I can, I might be good at this and I can explore more so I'd had a couple of years doing some presentations with the olympic committee.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: They sort of started a pilot program.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: We athletes would go out to high schools, chat to year eight and nine students about goal setting, resilience, but essentially whatever you wanted to like, they just want to hear from you as an athlete.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I was really enjoying that during that period and thought that this would be something I could continue doing down the line.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: I guess the challenge was during covid that there was no face-to-face visits anymore so I was still doing some online.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Really didn't enjoy that one bit.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: I'm sure the kids didn't enjoy listening to me on their computer screen either.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: But, um, why didn't you enjoy it just didn't have the connection like sitting face-to-face with you.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: You can build a connection with somebody, even if it's just talking for 45 minutes, but through a screen there's just a barrier that especially I feel like when you're trying to go a little bit deeper, below the surface of like how you're feeling about certain events that have happened in your life, then really hard for that to sort of come through through a screen.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: I think, yeah, um how did you feel actually delivering the talks and you know it's not something you're necessarily trained for how did how did you overcome that sort of while?
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: I'm doing this for the first time yeah, it was a challenge for sure, especially, I think, the first time I did it.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: I was 19 or 20, so relatively little life experience.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Up until that point I'd been to the olympics and I guess, relatively speaking, my career had been fairly smooth sailing up until that point.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: I'd had some small injuries, but nothing, no, really serious setback.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: So when I used to write sort of the speeches about what I was doing, what I thought was like big obstacles I had to overcome along the way, turns out they weren't really big obstacles At the time I thought they were, but it was just something I became more comfortable doing.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I think, like anything, the more you do it, the more you put yourself out there.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: It just feels more and more comfortable.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: So certainly the first couple of presentations I did, I was reading off cards like this for the whole time and then the cards came a little bit smaller.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Then there were dot points and I haven't read off palm cards for about three or four years that I've done presentations.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it was something I really enjoyed doing and I worked a fair bit during that COVID period with the wellbeing and engagement manager that was assigned to judo or combat sports at the time, sarah and we sort of set some goals for what I wanted to achieve outside of judo over the next couple of years as well.
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: So that sort of set some goals for what I wanted to achieve outside of judo over the next couple of years as well.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: So that sort of gave me a little bit of a better direction as to, maybe, where I wanted to go.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: But then we started traveling during the pandemic 2021 super chaotic experience, um, sort of getting told we'd be competing on a few weeks notice or a week notice, which is super intense and very stressful and it got to the end of that period and I missed out on qualifying for tokyo, went to the last tournament, didn't get the result I needed, um, and that was it.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: So the five-year cycle of everyone asking me when you're going to tokyo, how many olympics you're going to go to, you're going to win a medal all of a sudden, now I'm not going anymore.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: So that was tough and that was easily, up until that point, the hardest thing I had to deal with in my career professional sport, but life, life as well to be honest, what was going through your mind?
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: I always.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: I just felt like it was a waste, like I had just felt like I had wasted all my time, energy.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: I'd let so many people down.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: There were so many people that had supported me from parents and training partners and coaches and sponsors and people that helped me train all the time that I just felt like I had let everybody down.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: So I was really really almost embarrassed that I'm like how do I even deal with this?
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: How do I actually tell people that I didn't qualify and why?
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Because the first thing they ask, why aren't you in tokyo?
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: And I was like, well, actually I'm not good enough, like that was that.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Sure I got injured and there was covid and, but I actually just wasn't good enough in the end.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Um, and that was a hard thing to come to terms with, especially I was still only 22 I think 23, so still young and um, no one ever prepares you for what that experience is going to be like.
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: They always prepare you for the success you might have and you know what it's going to feel like if you lose in competition, but you don't know how it's going to feel when you don't reach your goal yeah, it's interesting.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: You say that.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: It's just again on a tangent, but it's like, yeah, no one prepares.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: No one prepares you when you lose or not qualify.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: If they did prepare for that, I mean one, how would they prepare you?
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: And two, would you even?
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Would you even want to go through that training?
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: It's like so this is what you say when you don't qualify for the olympics.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Do you think we'd have followed that?
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: yeah, do you follow the training?
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: It's a funny question you ask, and I think I had a whole other set of roller coaster circumstances for before paris.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: But, um, I think when I try to do presentations and talk to especially athletes that are following similar paths what I'm doing you have to tell them that it's going to be really hard and there's no guarantee of success at the end.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: You have to know at a young age that you can work as hard as you possibly can and it doesn't guarantee you anything at the end, and they have to know that from a young age.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: But I think it's really important to not go into too much depth about how hard it's going to be, because in the end they have to follow that, they have to go through those experiences themselves.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: And if I get up and just tell them about how depressed I was for months and months and months and I hated judo and I, I'm like that's probably not going to encourage people to want to aspire towards their, their dreams or their goals themselves.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: So it's it's acknowledging that it's going to be really hard and there's no guarantee at the end.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: But if you don't work really hard then it's impossible.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: So it's giving them, I guess the knowledge that, well, giving them the courage to try, yes, and I think using the motivation of would there's no guarantee.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: That's the motivation for like trying to work extra hard the whole time yeah.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Can you put into words how you felt after you know didn't qualify and having to tell people I didn't qualify?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: yeah.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: So when I came back from the last qualifying tournament we did two weeks hotel quarantine so I essentially had two weeks of just getting messages from everybody and I put up a post pretty pretty much the day after I fought.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just to sort of say guided missed out on qualifying.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Appreciate all the support.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: We'll get back to you over time.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Probably about 10 days before I opened any messages, like I was just sitting at home sitting in the lockdown yeah it was with my brother as well who when we did that lockdown experience he had missed qualifying too later found out that he would get sort of a trickle down spot and qualified for tokyo.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but during that two weeks that was a dark two weeks, like we had essentially both just failed on our lifelong goal of trying to get back to the olympics yeah and we're just locked up in a room for two weeks together which, under any circumstances the hotel quarantine is a challenge for your mental health.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, stop.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: But under those circumstances like that was really, really hard and I don't look back.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: I sort of laugh looking back on it how ridiculous it is that we were doing that.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: Um, but it was.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: It was so hard, it was really really hard.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I just didn't know.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what I was going to do.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: That was probably the biggest uncertainty that I felt was just, I had no idea if I wanted to keep doing judo, how I would deal with people.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: When I came back out again, all I wanted to do was just hide.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: How successful were you at hiding when you came out?
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: I mean funny story that the day we came out of hotel quarantine Sydney went back into lockdown.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: So as it went, I was hiding pretty well From a face-to-face perspective.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I managed to be able to hide for about three months.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: I think the first time I saw some of my friends was about four months after I finished, after I missed out on qualifying.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, yeah, managed to hide physically pretty well, but, um, you just have to accept that this is the reality yeah and I was, I guess, because my brother was able to qualify and compete for tokyo that sort of was allowed me to.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to feel sorry for myself anymore.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to help him.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just going to be invested in him.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: So certainly for the couple of weeks leading up to Tokyo and then watching Tokyo.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: I got a little bit of a boost from just thinking about him yeah but then when the Olympics came around and I was watching it on TV as soon as he was finished competing and I watched a couple of other my teammates or friends competing as soon as that was done I was like I need to be done with the olympics.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I can't think about this at all anymore so what happened next?
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm interested to understand what you did to put yourself back up, to certainly prepare for another four-year cycle, but you've got this period, as you said, this non-funded.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Um, the world forgets about you because the world forget about everyone, because the olympics are finished, um, so what did?
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: you do, then yeah, I mean, they definitely forget about you if you don't even go to the olympics did go.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Now he's not yeah.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Now he's not going.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: So I mean, there was some.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: There was a lot of opportunities to start doing presentations again with the olympic committee and I had to just say to them I need a bit of a break, like I.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: I can't go and talk to kids about my career and not talk about the fact I've missed out on qualifying for the olympics because that's going to come.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: That's the first question anyone's asked why didn't you compete in tokyo?
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, and I don't have a good answer to tell these 15 year old kids what that is yet.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: So I had to be able to figure out how I was going to deal with it before I start talking to them about it.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: So how did you figure it out?
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, what process did you go through to get the confidence to stand up in front of people?
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: but, as you say, to figure it out, I mean, I guess I was whether it was lucky or unlucky that I had a few months of lockdown.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: There weren't a lot of responsibilities or commitments during that period.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: So I was just sort of talking with my parents a lot and um with other coaches and other people and and trying to, I guess, imagine what the life is going to be like over my next couple years if I'm not doing judo anymore.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: And I wasn't happy with it, like not that I couldn't have been happy, but I wasn't ready to give up on that yet.
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: So I took a break, a long enough break that I started to miss it.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: And when I started to miss it and I was like, man, I really want to go back to training, that was when I knew I'm like, okay, there's still a little bit left.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: I still I really miss it, so I'll go back for fun, just sort of see how we go.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Started training for fun.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: The desire started to come back a little bit more.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: It was like a burning desire from, I guess, such a fresh disappointment of missing out on tokyo.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: A burning desire to do what?
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: it was like it was almost like redemption, like I almost felt like because I had qualified for rio at such a young age and then the qualifying system became a lot harder and I missed out on tokyo.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: I almost felt I'd cheated the system somehow, like I was almost a little bit embarrassed to say I had been to the Olympics and I was an Olympian, which is a really confusing thing to sort of talk about at the time, especially because people say like, oh, it's such an amazing achievement.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: But I was like almost embarrassed to talk about it and I was lucky that I had that, because a lot of these presentations and other experiences that I was doing was because I was lucky that I had that, because a lot of these presentations and other experiences I was doing was because I was an Olympian, but I wasn't a recent Olympian.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: So it was really hard as like a 23 year old to say, yeah, I've been to the Olympics.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, how was Tokyo?
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, I didn't go to Tokyo, I went to Rio.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: And they're like oh, that's weird, like why?
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, as it goes, like I was good enough then and I wasn't good enough last year.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: So, um, I started getting back into training again and then just really just had I knew I wasn't done yet, so I started getting back into full-time training again.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: Um, and I mean, off the back of, I guess, that motivation that I had never worked as hard as I had after that disappointment then started to come back at 2022 and started to have some really good success again.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: During that period?
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: How did you find the balance?
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: So you know I get you're going through this mental activity.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: So then, what was life like for you at that?
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: time.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: To be honest, it was pretty simple.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: It was just I would train and I would study.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: I picked up a lot more uni load.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: I was pretty much studying full time.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Granted, it was mostly online, but I was doing a full-time study load.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: That was just the more time that I had doing something then the less time I would be sitting there thinking about how disappointed I was that I wasn't in Tokyo.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: So I was just trying to be busy.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: I was trying to train more, study more, see my friends spend time with my family.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: It was a pretty simple like couple of months.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: I took the time to like enjoy things that I had missed out on, like went out with some mates and got to eat lots of nice food and all that sort of stuff as well, um, but just like tried to keep it pretty simple of like trying to be in a good routine.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as soon as I got back into a good routine again I've always been somebody that works better when I'm fairly busy um and just found I was like getting doing better at uni, I was doing better at training, yeah, and I just knew that I was starting to get back into the swing of things again, you got that sense again, that that sense, I guess, of achievement of progress for sure, for sure, kicking in perhaps the bit you were searching for yeah, that's the bit you were.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: I guess you were missing yeah absolutely so.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: I mean the run-up to where.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: The run up to where were we?
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: The run up to Paris.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: What was that like?
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: How was that balanced for you?
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: So after the Commonwealth Games 2022, I won a bronze medal at the Commonwealth.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Games.
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: My brother won a bronze medal.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: We jumped that we should go back, yeah my brother won a bronze medal same day, so that was around about the time the qualifying for Paris started.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: So off the back of that bronze, I'm all in.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: I'd had the best six months of my career up until that point, like a bunch of medals common games medal everything's sweet.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Now let's go.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Pretty soon after that broke my leg at training, came back from that pretty soon after that had shoulder surgery.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: So the stress and anxiety of now missing out on qualifying for paris is starting to get very real at this point.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Um, you'd been there before, I'd been there before, and it's starting to feel really real now because the first year of qualifying has gone by and I've competed, I think, two out of 12 tournaments, so it's not looking great.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: Up until this point I still had a lot of belief that I was good enough.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: It was just am I going to have enough opportunities to still be able to qualify?
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: Um, and we're sort of around about that time that we my brother and I decided that we would sort of set up our own speaking business as well, that the a lot of positive feedback that we'd had from previous presentations that we'd done schools had wanted us to come back and talk to them again, which didn't really have that ability to do that with the program that we're working with.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: So we stayed working with the olympic committee program but just decided we'd set up our own sort of independent business as well.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: What was it called?
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Team cats?
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: So, um, I guess it was something that I think the very first t-shirts we ever made before we went to Rio was just sort of team cats and they just sort of stuck.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: We just really liked the idea of it and we could have been much more creative, and it's quite it's creative.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: But it was okay, don't put yourself down.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: The team is me and my brother, but it's also like the team is everybody that has supported us along the way as well.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: So we always liked the idea that everybody that we would go and compete, that the team was everybody that came with us along the journey, and then, I guess, everybody now that we're bringing along on their journey as well.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: So we did think about it a little bit, and so with Team Cats.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: what's the premise?
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: What does it do?
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: So we do presentations, workshops, mentoring to schools, some sports academies, corporate businesses as well.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: It's constantly taking new legs in different directions.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: I guess when we first started it all we knew that was what we wanted to try to connect with.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: People.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: Didn't know how that would sort of look like until we started going out and talking to people about what their needs were, what they were looking for.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Typically the most common we do some one-off presentations as well, but the most common, I guess, is regular sessions scheduled throughout the year with smaller groups, so either leadership groups or sporting groups, high achieving, disengaged, sort of that whole spectrum in between and just trying to help them to set goals for themselves throughout the year.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: Us trying to help them to set goals for themselves throughout the year.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: I was trying to help them achieve those goals and then just passing on some of the lessons and the habits that we've learned through our career of like working hard and resilience and performing well under pressure and a lot of those things translate from year six in primary school and all the way up to corporate.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: It's very different how they're presented and how they're explained, but the lessons are pretty much the same in all aspects of life.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: So we just try to relate our experiences, not just the positives Like we talk much more about the negative experiences that we've had to deal with than the positives, and then just trying to help others to achieve their goals as well.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's great and, like you say, what's fascinating about it is you're using your lived experience and certainly by doing, at least initially, the Olympic program, for which trains you on public speaking talking and gives you a good structure to deliver, you're able to pick that up in order to then create something your own business and start sort of moving forward in that regard.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: I'm super grateful for those experiences and before I had ever set up we'd ever set up our own business, I'd probably spoken to a hundred schools, so by that point I was really confident that this was something that I really wanted to do.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: But I guess the funny, the fun part about it that I'm still competing is that the story is changing all the time, like when I first started speaking about what I thought were really big setbacks and adversity in 2018, compared to now, is like so much do I don't even talk about any of that stuff because it's not.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: It wasn't difficult in the scheme of things no, but well, I think what I like is your premise was to connect with people and you were looking for a way to connect.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: It's clearly something you, in you, enjoy doing and even as you spoke about the difference in training as a kid in football by yourself in the back garden, wasn't, wasn't what didn't turn, you didn't float your boat right, whereas judo did, and it's that, and it sounds like it's that connection, that club environment, that that's something that really sort of motivates you, um, and and so you know we spoke about challenges and things like that.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: As you think about that, lead up to paris and you started to recognize this pattern, um, that you'd felt at rio, you're missing out on these things.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: What, what did that?
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: What?
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: How did you react to that?
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: how did you sort of overcome, um, that feeling, to put it into a positive light for qualification, so probably I mean the biggest challenge that I didn't quite get to yet, but January 2024, so six months before the games.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, was in a position to qualify for the games and tore my ACL fully ru ruptured my acl yeah um.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: So that was like gut-wrenching at the time because immediate thoughts, reactions is that olympics is done, it's all over.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: They sort of gave me a lifeline that we can do the best that we can.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: We're going to rehab it, you're going to train really hard, you probably won't do judo much and you go and compete.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, it doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence, but I guess like that's the best that we've got.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: But there's been lots of different periods in my life career that I've been fueled by positive motivation, that is, I really want to get to the next olympics, I really want to win this medal, I really want to achieve this.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: And there's been other periods, and especially those couple of months post injury, where I was like negatively fueled motivation that I was just so afraid of that feeling of missing tokyo would happen again.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that I was so dialed in for those couple of months like diet, recovery, rehab, training, like I had to the point where they talk about a balance all the time and you're trying to put in a little bit of buckets all the time.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: I was a hundred percent judah, that was it, nothing else.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Like I didn't see people I wanted to see, didn't spend time doing anything else, like it was just that, and it was really draining and taxing mentally to do that.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: But I just was so afraid of that feeling coming back again.
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, that that was just pushing me so hard for those couple of months.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and did that?
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: So fear, fear as a motivator, um in in that regard, do you looking back?
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Did you achieve?
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Was it the right motivator?
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: I think it's what I needed at the time.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: It's not something that I would you rely on for a long period of time or encourage people to rely on for a long period of time, because it's just quite a negative spin on the whole thing.
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it was what I needed at the time.
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: I think, um, and certainly once I had qualified that this in overwhelming relief, yeah, like I don't think I have cried when I've lost a bunch of times in my life I'm not afraid to sort of say that it's been one time that I've cried when I won a match and that was when I qualified for Paris.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: Like I was so overwhelmingly emotional, but it was mostly relief.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: It wasn't even happiness, it was like so much relief that this struggle, this period, is over and I've done it.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and how was?
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Paris, amazing, amazing, I mean the the result obviously disappointing.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Um, I went to paris with the full belief that I could do well, probably had convinced myself that I was ready to win a medal, when reality was I had barely trained for six months done judo.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, uh, I guess I was capable of beating any person for one match.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: But to be able to win two, three, four, five matches, to win a medal, with the training and prep I'd done, just probably wasn't realistic.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: But, trained as well as I could, competed as well as I could, was really gutted, especially on the day and a couple of days after.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: But I'm able to reflect on that whole experience, like with really positive feelings.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and so, coming back on the plane from Paris, what thoughts did you have on what's next?
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: So I came back from Paris quite quickly after I competed.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: We had sort of preemptively set up quite a lot of business presentations and talks and things like that straight after the Olympics, knowing that the window to tap into the Olympic fever and spirit is quite short if you don't win a medal.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: And we sort of didn't.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: We knew that, we didn't know that in Rio and we missed the boat on a lot of opportunities.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: So tried to plan a lot of those things for straight after we got home and it was quite strange because I was still trying to deal with the emotions of Olympics is over didn't get the result I wanted, but going to these presentations and being really bubbly and excited, and so it was quite a unique sort of balance during that period that I was quite confusing.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: Because, I didn't really know how to feel about the whole experience as it was.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: But I'm going and talking and presenting quite often a couple of times a week and then sort of got through that period I knew I'd had to have knee surgery.
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: Once I had the knee surgery I knew things would slow down a lot, so tried to sort of cram as much as I could into the month when I got home of yeah working, seeing friends going and doing some fun I guess cool opportunities that I'd missed out on.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: And then surgery and you lay in bed for a couple of weeks.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: So look, we spoke earlier about certainly if your parents had stressed the importance to you and your brother of, I guess, having this balance your career is longer than just a judo career and emphasizing to you, study this, this, this path afterwards.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: When you think about your identity today, how are you going through sort of that hey, I'm a judo olympian but actually I'm running team cats.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: Where do you see your identity or identities tied?
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: it's a good question and I think it's something that you get told a lot as an athlete.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: When you're coming through that, don't try to just tie your identity to yourself as an athlete which is much easier said than done, I think, when you're in the thick of it because for a really long time in between sort of rio and paris, my identity was linked to I'm the guy that went to the Olympics but then didn't go to the Olympics and then the guy that's trying to go back to the Olympics again.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: Like that was all it was for a really long time and I struggled to sort of branch out of that.
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: But I think now, having gone to Paris and understanding that I've competed at two Olympics, I haven't achieved a lot of the goals I still want to achieve, but that's okay as well.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: Like I, I haven't achieved a lot of the goals I still want to achieve, but that's okay as well.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Like I would love to win an Olympic medal.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: Like I feel like that would give me a lot of satisfaction, but it's not the only way that I'm going to be happy for the rest of my life.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: If I work as hard as I can, do everything I can, and I don't get there, then I think I'll be all right to live with myself for the next, whereas I think 10 years ago I have said, if I don't win a medal, like it's over, like I'll never be happy.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: It's the only thing I've ever wanted my whole life.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um and some people misinterpret that as it's not you have to be so motivated that that's the only outcome.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: But it's the reality of it, like I've experienced the lows as well, that you can go and miss a medal like, or you cannot go um, better to go and miss a medal and not go at all, exactly right if you have a choice.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Better to go and miss a medal and not go at all.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Exactly right if you have a choice, better to go and miss a medal.
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: But I think I'm just more appreciative of the positive experiences because I've also missed them as well and had the negatives too.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: So, um, definitely still connected as strongly as ever towards josh, the judo player that's trying to go to the olympics in 2028 trying to win a medal in 2028.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: We We'll leave it at there for now.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: We won't worry about 20.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: We'll touch on that in a couple of years.
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: I'll add 32 for everybody else.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: We'll add 32.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: If you want, I'll bring that in, but keep going.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: No, it's good, but also have other avenues.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: now that I get a lot of fulfillment from as well, that I know can keep me fueled for longer past just my career as well, and you know you spoke, certainly during the covid period the benefit that you got from speaking with the athlete well-being in the olympic committee.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: They helped you sort of get this good visual for yourself.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: So today, what sort of goals do you have then?
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: And well, actually, do you continue to sit down and think well, what are my goals?
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: How do I want to achieve them off the mat?
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: for sure, for for my whole life, I've always set judo goals.
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: Every year we set judo goals.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: What I want to achieve 2020, 2021, 22 like when I win this medal get to this result, and I've always been good at setting that for judo and it was something I didn't do a lot outside of judo.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: So I guess some of those goals are probably a little bit less tangible.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: I think because I guess my life as a judo player is changing all the time that I try not to put so much pressure on outcomes for the business or relationships and things.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: I try not to put so much pressure on an outcome, but just sort of like striving towards.
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: We want to get into, try to get into more schools.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: All the time.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: We want to try to reach more people, get into more sports academies.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I guess the way that we're doing it is that if it we're improving and expanding and connecting with more people, then we get a positive from it, and if we don't, then it's okay as well, because I still have other things that I'm doing.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: I guess if I was full-time on our business, there would be a little bit more pressure, I think, because maybe you're a little bit more reliant on more funds and income and things like that as well.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: But I think, certainly for now, I would love it to grow at a massive rate, but also know that I've got judo for the next few years as well.
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: So if it sort of stays and goes at baby steps forward, then that's going to be there when I finish my career.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: But I'm not going to finish my career and regret.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: I spent way too much time trying to make money when I was competing.
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: I wish I had have trained a bit more or I wish I had have been a little bit more disciplined with my judo.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: So it's a constantly evolving balance that I don't think you can ever really perfect as an athlete.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: No, you know what I would say, is it sounds healthy.
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: So, yes, in sport we can be really, really clear on that competition.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: I want to win, I want a medal.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: You know, I want it to look like that because that's what sport is.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: It's somewhat linear, or at least black and white.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Did I win, yes or no?
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: In life.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: It isn't like that right.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: It isn't about, well, like you say, the business is here, that's what it has to be, but often it is about that outcome and it could be a sense or a feeling, and so I think it's what you've described to me is a very healthy way of goal setting.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: It's clear, but it's not gold medal, it's not.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that relationship looks like this there are some goals that are gold medal, but it's not.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: I'm not depressed if I haven't won it, like it's okay.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean, it changes all the time.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: Even a few weeks ago, I had a little bit of a setback with my rehab and I had two weeks where I couldn't train and it was really tough on me mentally because all of a sudden now I can't work towards these goals at all.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: And that's still something I struggle with sometimes, that if I can't work towards the goal, whether or not I achieve it is irrelevant sometimes, but if I'm not working towards it, I struggle with that sometimes.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: That sometimes but if I'm not working towards it, I struggle with that sometimes that as long as I'm walking forwards, doesn't matter if I'm gonna get there in a week or five years, as long as I'm going forwards, it's all good.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: When I stop, I feel like I'm going backwards, which is which is tough, and I'm still trying to deal with that and get better at it.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, it's a work in progress that's great.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: No, I look.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: Progress is probably the key thing there.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: Look, I guess last question really is you've got a lot of athletes who are competing, like you, and I'm thinking how on earth do I find a balance to give it my all?
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: Give sport what I can, but also think about that life after sport, find that second wind.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: What guidance would you give to them on how to find that second wind?
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: What guidance would you give to them on how to find that balance?
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: I think just trying to put yourself out there as much as you can, that it's really.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: It can be really scary because you feel like every time you put yourself out of your normal routine you're pulling yourself away from your sport, which is really scary.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: But as long as you always know, the thing that always helped me was like always came back to the fact that I was like is there anything I can do more than what I'm doing to get better at judo?
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: If the answer was no, then I was like, okay, then all good, try to get this experience with study, trying to do this short course online, trying to tap into the network that I've got, because I've met people all over the world before, like trying to do something else to enjoy the sport a little bit more than as well, because you put a little bit less pressure on the sport by having something else.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: And as long as you know that you can come back to it and you've done everything you can, then you always have some peace of mind.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: I think as soon as you start knowing that, as soon as you start pulling yourself away from the sport, then you start having that doubt and that guilt about dual careers.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: But yeah, as long as you're always doing whatever you can, then I think go for it.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: Brilliant Josh, listen, I just want to say thanks very much for coming in today having a chat and sharing your story Really appreciate it.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: Thanks very much.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: You've given me maybe a little more motivation for 2020, well, 2032, it's a long time away now, but we'll see how we go.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: We'll keep it healthy, but that sounds good to me.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right thanks for coming down really enjoyed it.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah beautiful.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well done, mate.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Second Wind podcast.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwindio for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Brook Design, nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: That's all from me.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: Take it easy Until next time.