Latest / Claymore: Become Who You Are / #461 From Trauma to Healing: With Special Guest Nancy Charles! It Is A Story You Will Want to Share With Young People This Lent!

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#461 From Trauma to Healing: With Special Guest Nancy Charles! It Is A Story You Will Want to Share With Young People This Lent! · Claymore: Become Who You Are

• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Become who you Are podcast, the production of the John Paul Tour Renewal Center.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: I'm Jack Rigard, your host.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Very grateful to have Nancy Charles on as my special guest today to talk about her early sexual trauma as a child and then her journey to healing.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Quite a story.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: You won't want to miss it, so buckle up and get ready for today's episode.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: I am excited and grateful to have Nancy Charles on the show.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: Nancy, welcome.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you just a little background.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: So I got back on X I was just telling Nancy off here.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: I got back on X when Elon Musk bought it and I started to follow her brother on X and he was a convert.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: And here's the story with that.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: So, with the John Paul Tour Renewal Center, where I'm the director of, we focus on young people, teens, marriage, family, and I keep my eyes open for witness stories.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Nancy, you know the reality of a change of heart, transformation and the change of heart, for witness stories can act like a bridge that connects someone that's searching, someone that's hurting, and it's a bridge just to open up to the possibility that there might be someone out there that can help heal them right.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: And so I experienced that in my own life with my own brother, and he was he was my little witness bridge to opening up, you know, to an incredible journey.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: Well, I found you and you hit an amazing journey.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: So I reached out.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: I asked you if you could share part of that story at least with us, your personal story, and you said yes.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: So we're excited to have you here.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: So if you could just start out, tell us a little bit about yourself now we're two hour difference, so you're on the West Coast.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: So tell us just a little bit about where you live, what, what, what you're, where you grew up and anything else you want to tell us about the kind of just an early family.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Just give us a couple of minutes on Nancy Charles.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: So I was born in.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: San Diego is where I was born, grew up in Protestant family.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: For the most part I wouldn't say we're overly religiously serious or anything, but I had enough of experience to learn enough about kind of God and the basics.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: You know the very basics, I would say.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: And siblings, siblings.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Nancy, we know, we know, we know your brother.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, my brother, Josh Charles, and then my sister.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: I have younger sister and I have a little younger brother as well, who's about eight, eight years old now.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: So Protestant, a little bit about the faith kind of journey and along there.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: And then, like my brother, you experienced and we don't have to go deep on to this, but I just want people to have a little idea my brother, danny, who people are familiar with from the show, he had a traumatic experience as a young person.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: You know, and so did you, didn't you?
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I definitely did.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you want me to get into that.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: You know just a little whatever you're willing to share.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: And you know just so people have a little idea.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Because I'll tell you what your story is important, especially today in the work that we do, because we're seeing a lot of unfortunate, a lot of trauma in young people.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: So growing up I was, I did experience sexual abuse from my older cousin and that kind of lasted.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: That lasted for a good chunk of time.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: But I would say that you know when you yeah, when you go through things like that, you kind of just survive them.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: You don't really know how much they're going to affect you later on in life or actually how they kind of shape you.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: And I wouldn't say that was the only indicator of what ended up leading me down the path that I went down.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: There's, that was one of, I would say, many things that probably contributed, but that was a big one.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: So yeah, how old were you?
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: How old were you?
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: About five or six, so five or six years old, and your cousin was old enough to old enough to sexually abuse you.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's tragic and it's not as uncommon as you think, you know, right?
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: So as you went along there, did you hold that in or was it exposed, that the trauma?
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: You know it's one.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: It's kind of interesting actually because I did hold it in.
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: It was something that my parents found out about when it like, or eventually they found out when I was younger, but a lot of that period of my life I actually don't have a lot of memories of it.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: It's really interesting Because my whole life I ended up telling my mom again, because around 18 years old the trauma started festering up in a way that I just could not handle it anymore and I had a major meltdown, I mean like a mental breakdown, where I finally was like I got to tell my mom about this because I had a lot of resentment towards my parents, to be honest, because I thought like, how come you guys never you guys knew this happened?
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: I remember them knowing it happened, because I remember the day that they found out and that was the whole thing.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: And I had a lot of resentment towards them because I felt like, well, it never was really brought up again, we never talked about it, nothing ever happened.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: So I kind of grew up thinking like, well, they didn't love me, like that was something like.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I, it must have been like not that big of a deal, and if nobody thinks it's a big deal then I don't think it's a big deal either.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: And so I kind of just didn't.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: We, yeah, I tucked away, I never thought about it and it just kind of life went on.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: Well then at 18, it was crazy because I actually ended up telling my mom she was like I had a feeling one day this would come up and your mom said that, nancy.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: Your mom said she thought one day it would come up, but yeah, she didn't.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: She still was.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Just see, this was on her mind too.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: Huh, it's amazing.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: We don't we're afraid to talk about these things, aren't we somehow in families?
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: And it's not uncommon.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, it's actually interesting because I learned something that day that I didn't ever know my whole life, and what I learned was that she actually so I had been a pressure that they never taken into counseling or anything like that, and actually they did, they did.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I have no memory of any of it.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: Like.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I was taken right away to a therapist that was actually one of my pastor of our church.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: His wife was a counselor and she offered services to us because we didn't have the money for it.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: But she said we took you for months and you didn't say anything Like you.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Just you kept.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: You just didn't say anything at all.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: You would just play with the toys and you would just kind of like, you know, until we tried our best.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: And then they said they had told them that it's really important that you don't plant false memories in her brain.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: So they were really careful about how to bring it up, because as long as I was saying, I'm fine, they were, they couldn't they, they were doing the best they could with the information they had.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: And so it was sort of like okay, sort of kind of where that came from.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: So yeah, so they, they.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: They weren't trying to push this under the carpet, they were handle it, kind of what they thought they needed to do.
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: Huh, Exactly.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: It's just funny how, you know, I created a resentment out of you know, unfortunately, trauma, you know, retracts a lot of memories and so I just had no memory of doing that.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I was too young and but they.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: But these things, they, they, they're.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: If they stay deep inside, you know there's an effect isn't there, you know they're, they're going to cause some type of of you know havoc.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Might be too strong of a word in all cases, but in a lot of cases I know in my own brother's life, nancy.
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: You know he never told anybody and he was actually.
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: He was abused in the church and he never told anybody.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: And and so he was.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: He got into drugs later on and then and then into a gay lifestyle and he never, we never, knew why you know, and then it came out later on and you just go holy cow, how come you didn't tell us, you know?
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: but there's all kinds of reasons, which I won't get into, for that, but all kinds of but anyways, my point being there's, it does cause havoc in your heart and you know he tried to.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I think I think you know you, you had said in a, in something that I heard, that you also went through some, some drug episodes and stuff and and I know with my brother I, you know I, he never really said why he he did the drugs.
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: But you know I part of it's.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: I'm numbing, you know, just the numbing of your heart, you know.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Well, I could tell you the consistent theme and I think this is in a weird way I created how the devil works against us and takes advantage of our, our weaknesses to make us feel and act and believe certain things.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: Because, because I felt like I had to stay silent about that stuff and I created a real resentment towards family and, like you, talked about my parents and they will tell you that the consistent theme, I mean I was always very angry as a kid.
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: I'd have like anger outburst and, like you know, and nothing was ever like good enough because I just didn't, I could not allow my, I did not know I was loved.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I could not feel that at all.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: I just felt very alone, nicely, at all the time and like there was just this thing that was, you know, hovering over me, and there was other things as well, but I mean that was the biggest thing was just I.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: I was a very angry child and I grew up into that and so I think that followed me and then the hole in my heart, which is where drugs came in, was, yeah, I mean you can't if you.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: I mean there was always a gaping wound in me, always I.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: In fact, it was so normal to live that way that I thought that was just life.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: That's why I wanted eventually to end my life.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Because I just thought like that's what life is, just this gaping hole of emptiness.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I don't want it.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: I can't do this anymore.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: It's too painful.
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: So so look at, I don't want to jump too far ahead so you can rain me in if you need to, but you just said the word.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: You know, take my life and and so you get into a dark place.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: So I run into these, you know, and I'm going to get your advice here, nancy.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: You know I run into grade school kids too, unfortunately, but certainly high school kids.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: When we go into do a high school retreat, it's I.
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: I could almost say that I don't know any high school retreat we did that there wasn't some classmate that committed suicide, and if it wasn't directly in that class, it was certainly the class before or after.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: So so you know, we get into these dark places, don't we?
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: With these pains today.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: And I don't think the culture is doing us much, much good.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Can you describe that a little bit?
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a dark place right when, when, you know, and I'm and I I don't know what we could do sometimes with these kids, because we're only there for a day and what we're trying to do is lead them to the light, right when.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist, so we're not going to pretend that we are, but we do want them to open up their heart to this, this crazy guy named Jesus Christ, you know.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, that's a process sometimes because there is anger, you know.
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if my brother was abused in the church, the last thing he's going to do is want to talk about Jesus.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: And and my wife just quickly grew up with an alcoholic father and he started to talk about God, the father and you had these father wounds, you know.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: So this could be a mess.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Nancy, Can it?
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: It could be a mess.
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: It's a real mess actually and you know, if I had, you know, if I had the answer for like what I think would be best to do, I would be, you know, spreading as far and wide, but you know the good point yeah.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: The thing I, I, in my experience, the I mean really God had to change my heart and there was a lot of seeds that were planted along the way that sort of set the stage for him to be able to do that, but that darkness I mean I don't know how I could have.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, so Look what was the exact question you asked.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: I want to make sure I'm yeah, well, yeah, so, basically, you know what, what brings that?
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: You know, look, we know it's a certain circumstance, is bring that, that on.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: But it said it was a sense of was, it was a hopelessness, was it just not knowing what to do or where to go?
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean there's, there's a lot of like you said earlier.
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: You know, part of it was the abuse, but then part of it's this crazy Culture.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: You know, I think at the end of the day, look at, we need a lifeline, don't we?
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: We need a lifeline.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: And if we don't have a lifeline from somebody or someplace, life can get dark really fast.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And I know that I know a lot of people that get that way right, and so, yeah, so I, yeah, I'm trying to, I probably go ahead of the story here, but you need, we all do you know we come into a broken world.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they don't tell kids that.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Right, it's not just your fault, nancy, you're broken, I'm broken, we're all broken.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Let's family, let's, let's heal, let's help each other heal and and you know, and let's open ourselves up to to the great healer.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: If we could just have these open conversations, right, you know, but somehow we all are in our silos somehow and we're trying to share.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: It's like a husband and a wife that are not getting along and and they're ready to get divorced, but at the end of the day they just needed a lifeline like so they could start the conversation again, you know right, you know, yeah, I mean, well, the darkness for me was it was hopeless.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: There's different levels of hopelessness, right, and I actually wouldn't have known this because when I've been suicidal for as long as I can remember.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: But what I will say is that that you know, when somebody's talking about you know I always I was the craziest thing because a lot of times I would tell people when I was suicidal, you know, because I was desperate, because I was scared to be alone.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: In my head I felt like, imagine being in a room and there's like somebody in the room trying to kill you.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: Would you not scream out and tell somebody you know that's, you know it's.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: I think for me I can only speak to myself, but for me it was a very unsettling feeling, like I could like I didn't trust myself, like I was gonna do something.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to do it and in which I think there's also part of what led to the.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: The, you know, the drug abuse and things like that was one.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: It subdued my own will to be able to do something like that, but then also it kind of also played with my life in a way where it was like, well, if I died, would it be the worst thing you know, like then I could just overdose or something like I had really dark thoughts like that, like it was, you know, take away the pain.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: You know for sure.
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: Right, you're thinking, well, let's take away the pain, and and you know, but, but they're always in the back.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: And let me ask you this in the back of your mind, was there ever the thought, like you know, because I, you know, I'm talking to different people and they said, well, we'll take away the pain, but then you're, you know, does it take away the pain?
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Am I done or is there an afterlife?
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Does that come into this?
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Or are you just at a place where you just go?
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Nope, I'm done, it's painful, I don't know what's gonna happen.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: I'm just doing this thing, you know, or whatever.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Well, in a weird way I would say, I honestly didn't most of my life think about it that deeply.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: I wasn't really that deep into that thought process.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: It was like there's pain.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: My goal was to stop it.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: That's the best bars it went.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I didn't, I didn't get too deep, and it wasn't until I had like my first overdose experience that I started having a really consider okay, actually there are like things that can happen out of this and I would say, slowly but surely, the more in trouble I would get, you know, the more in danger I suppose I put myself in.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: The worst things got, the more I had to be confronted with that question Of like it, what does happen after this you?
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: know to be like your mentality.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: So, but when you're young, like that, you feel like you're invincible, like even if you overdose.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: You're like, well, yeah, I have a you know, like.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: So it's almost like it's weird, this relationship we have with this, like, yeah, it's like I was so close to death so many times but I didn't, I didn't feel the need to ask too many questions about it.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: It was I was really okay with leaving at any point because my brain couldn't.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: It wasn't really thinking that deeply about it, it was just.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: It's really simple when you're in pain, you just want it to be gone, and I would say I would actually argue that I didn't.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Actually, I would always tell people I it's not that I don't want to live, it's that I it's not that I want to die, it's that I don't know how to live.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to live.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: I never wanted to die, I just didn't know how to live.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And those are very yeah, so so you're getting, you know, talk about going deep.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know this is a timeless question, right?
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: You know who am I and think about this, nancy, in today's time, like who would ever think that?
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: You know, with these gender ideologies and all these things going on in the sexual exploitation of children, you know I'm in Illinois.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: You know we're like you're in California.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: You know we're in the belly of the beast when it comes to public schools.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're pushing these ideologies on kids.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: You know, probably not much older than when you were traumatized, you know, sexually and and, and so we're pushing this on Kids and it's gonna have an effect on all of those children, isn't it, nancy?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, oh yeah, you know, what do we?
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: What do we do into them?
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Right, and and so.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: So we go in, and, and you know, with the John Paul to renewal center and we'll ask, you know, people, let's talk about identity.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: You know, and, oh my gosh, they can get in the weeds on that.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: And here's to your point.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: You know what's the meaning of purpose of life, what is the meaning of purpose for life?
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: And we, we have to.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: You know, human being wants an answer to those questions, nancy, and if you don't, it's not good, is it?
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: No, it's not, because, especially like you don't have a better purpose in life and and in something bigger than obviously yourself much bigger, hopefully.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: But if you don't have a purpose to life and think about it, it really is easy to consider something like suicide, because we even treat animals with more dignity.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: We'll put them out of their misery or, if they're, if they're suffering.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: So, and when you compare it like, I thought all the time I was like, well, I'm suffering.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: If there's really like, think about it, if there really is no point to life, why wouldn't I take myself out?
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: If I'm just suffering, I've given it a good shot.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: What?
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: What's the problem, you know?
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I mean like other than the fact that you know people, it'll hurt a few people and you get that, but then you can kind of actually, you really selfish in your thinking.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I should think this too is like, yeah, I know it'll hurt people, but if they knew how much I was suffering, they would be.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: It would help them get through whatever pain they're going through, like you know.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I mean like they would want that.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I convinced myself in a weird way that my family would be okay eventually if they knew how much I was suffering because we, I mean we put the dog down, we put the cat down.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, and that's how like, that's how I thought about it, like you know, when, when you don't have God, I mean when you seriously there's, I mean that's how dark it gets, that's why I get so dark think about.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: What you just said is pretty profound, you know, because this is what young people are being told, you know.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: So when you go into those dark places, they're being told that it's actually kind and compassionate to put people out of their misery.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Look, you know, at one time, euthanasia was something that that people knew the word, but they certainly weren't going to do this to anybody.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: And now we're doing mercy killings, and and we're not just doing mercy killings for old people now we're starting to do them for young people that are confused.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: You know, I and you just go.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: This is, this is kindness and compassion, right?
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: This is what we think, right?
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: So this is, you know, you have to.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: This is so important, nancy.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Young people have to know their identity, don't they?
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: and if and if and if you, you know God, him is special.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: This, this is this.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Your brother would know this.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: This is one of the four Vatican to constitutional documents.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: Got him is best.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Number 36 says when God has forgotten, the creature itself grows unintelligible.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: In essence, we don't know who we are.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: And when I first read that years ago, nancy, I go well, you know, I don't, I don't get that really, you know.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: But now, now, because you know, now you say, yeah, these young people were never told there.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: See, I grew up, you know it's a cradle Catholic.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: I got away from the church for over 20 years but I, but I knew my identity somewhere in the back of my head was a child of God.
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: Right, right, you mentioned this.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Right, you know, if you don't have God, and and then?
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: But people don't have that today and they're told, kind of compassionate, to get rid of us.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: And, oh my gosh, we're doing it, we're doing it, yeah.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Well and it's not only that we're doing it to people I mean, oh my gosh, it's identity for me.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I had.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: So identity I didn't realize I was placing.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: When they say things like you're either for God or against God, there's no gray area, I mean realistically.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: In many ways that made sense to me because when I look backwards I was like, because I wasn't with God, everything contrary to God.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: I just got further and further away.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: Whether I was conscious of it or not, it didn't matter.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: See, the thing is, we can sin without our awareness of it, in the sense of like, being fully conscious of like, what it all means and how.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: I mean you can let things into your life without knowing.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like you know and you open doors.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: I used to think this all the time.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: We have Hollywood right with all the like, demonic films and stuff, and you think like well, I don't have a demon and you know what I mean.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: That's how you think about it when you're not Catholic.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: You've never been privy to like, you know all this kind of stuff, and so you're like well, thank God I never opened any of those doors.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: But it turns out I was actually severely attacked when I came into the faith, overtly in many ways by those things, and so I actually did I opened a lot of doors that I had no idea had you know?
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Because it's self like we don't realize.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: All these things are good.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: Yes, and Nancy, you're saying again, I don't know if you realize how much you're unpacking here, but you're right, you know again.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: You know, just for people that are listening here, you just unpacked a lot.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: So I don't want to just brush by this too fast, because you're really this is a gift that you're really expounding on right now and that's when, in essence, is this John Paul II?
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: You know, he's my mentor, you know, and he would say that.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: You know, we have free will.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: We can choose good or evil, but sometimes you're right, you know, if you don't have a base of what that even means, you can choose small things at first.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: You know small things that are.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: You know, when you look back, you go, oh my gosh, you know, how did I, young guys, how did I ever look at porn or whatever?
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Well, you can be just watching stuff on television today and opening the doors, right and so anyway.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: So you start to let evil in in little different ways and then you start to do evil.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: You're not kind to your, you know, to people around you.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: You said you were angry as a child, you know.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: So you're pushing people back.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: You know you're probably doing little things, but then you start to do some evil things.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: You know, because you're hurting people without knowing it sometimes, and then you do evil.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: In essence, you become evil and you can take this very far.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: You know, most young people I meet do not take it very far and they don't want to go very far.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: But you're exactly right, they've opened the door and they don't even know the oppression they're under until until they try to stand up and move the other way.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Now I want to choose to good and do some good.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: Ooh, that's when you're going to get attacked, right there.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Right, right, yeah, and it's quite amazing actually how that works.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: It becomes really obvious.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: But I also was given a few graces to see also and you can see it clearly in our society, even when I was growing up in the 90s, there was things like pornography and all that stuff.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: But nowadays, like I remember growing up in like I remember specifically being in Mexico once and seeing like you would see like street prostitutes excuse me and things like that and that was very you know, that was very shocking to see in many ways in certain bad parts of Mexico.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: But now you have things like Onlyfans and you have it's widely celebrated as a legitimate form for women to make money.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: And so it's like that went from being this closeted sort of shameful thing to now you're seeing it like open up and be like this mainstream thing.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: That is the door that was open.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: It's like it's like the slippery slope.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: It's like we let one little thing in and then you see it expound.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: It's like the gay rights movement and the open loves you know in the 60s, and now we have transgenderism.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: We're cutting children's it's like that moved quickly.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: That was great yeah, it did.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: But you know, you don't really know, unless you look back towards it and you're like, wow, that's what happens when you let the little things in and then they go flood.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: There's a flood of it.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Now we it's like we don't even know who we are.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Now we have, we don't even know what a woman is, we don't know what a man is, we don't know how to make distinctions of these things.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Well, because we left God a long time ago and there are consequences to that, you know.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you this so when you know you're going along, say in your late teens and early 20s, I mean, were you able to make friends and what was your?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, were you able to?
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Were you interested in a normal, say, a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship or whatever Cause?
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: I remember with my brother.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, look at you know, just like you said, there's a lot of points.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: You can't just say one thing happened, yeah, it was sexual abuse for him, whatever.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: But there's other factors in the culture and all kinds of things.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And you know he said to me one time he goes, jackie goes, I would have never chosen this, you know.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: So I have these attractions.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: And then he started to.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't until he was in drug rehab, nancy, that he actually acted on those attractions.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: In other words, he felt those as a young guy.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: He said probably what a predator saw in him something and actually sexually abused him.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: So there might have been something there.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: And the reason he didn't come after me or my other brothers I'm the oldest of five and yet, yet he had never chosen it.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: You know he felt it but he never chose it.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: But then in drug rehab you know how rehab is now or therapist, I should say, not rehab so much, but therapist.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: You know they just go along with your brokenness, nancy, they just go, okay.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: Well, if that's your attraction, let's just do this thing, and maybe that's your problem.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: You just need to you know, walk into a gay lifestyle and that'll make you happy.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: And it didn't, you know.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, cause I think early on, you know we, so you see it, wide stream now is that the homosexual lifestyle is conflated with identity.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: So it's like so, for instance, like you know people really, and I know, for me, when I grew up, I, what I couldn't understand was why would I if this wasn't natural?
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: This isn't my understanding of the natural law, which I didn't even know there was a natural law, cause you know what?
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: I mean I just, wasn't raised Catholic, so I never had this terminology, this language, so.
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: but my version of natural was if I feel it, then that must be the truth, and so my I can only discern what was real based on how I felt.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: No one ever taught me that I wasn't what I felt, you know.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I for me, when it flipped over, you know, I did have, I did, you know, I guess, my family, my parents, divorced.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: And at that point, when I was about 18, going into college, that's when I came out officially because I kind of had this I don't care anymore.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Attitude.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: You know, when you say you came out then, so what does that mean?
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: to you.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I told my mom, I just basically told people, and then I started engaging in those activities in college, while I was partying and things like that, and I started Did you come out as gay then, or as a lesbian?
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Gay yeah lesbian, gay, whatever Just as a girl who liked other women, you know.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: And that's how I came out.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: And so that was it.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: And my mom made it very clear that, how she felt about the fact that, like you know, she still loved me, but that, you know, she was very clear about her belief in God and how God sees me and I, you know, that actually made me more angry.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: I was very angry.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: I'd get very angry at my mom because, once again, when I confuse my identity with my sexual locality or my sexual urges, I should say I, when she would say, you know, I love you, it felt more of like a condescending love, like you know what I mean Like, cause I, you know, it gets weird because we still want the same things and you see this.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Now, that's why gay love really can't work, because and I know that now because the rest of society has to sort of bend to the whims of that in the unnatural thing, For instance, I still wanted a family, I still wanted to be married, I still wanted all these things that you know kind of already doesn't align with this one desire.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: And so I, I mean I had full belief one day that I would have children that were like in vitro you know what I mean Like and that to me was fine.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: I didn't think anything of it.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: But now I looked at them like wow, like that's, like it's kind of desecrating the whole, like Purpose of everything, like you know what I mean it really.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: That's as well.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: You know, when you buy into one line, you have to buy into a million other lives to make that one.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, oh my gosh, you know it's In if nobody hit.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: I'm in parishes all the time, nancy, and and I'm telling the parish, you know, staff.
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: I said we need to tell these young people the truth about you, know nature, natural law and and divine revelry, revelation, and, and look at, they can always reject it later on.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: But why are you guys holding back?
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Because of exactly what you said, nancy.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: It's so important if we leave them in a vacuum, right in this culture, in this, this, this depraved culture.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Can you imagine these poor, innocent?
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I do a presentation called stolen innocence for parents and grandparents Just to tell them about what you're saying right now, that you cannot leave these poor children in a vacuum because the Culture will eat them up.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: They're, like you know, innocent lambs thrown to the wolves, aren't they?
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: And and so you're right, we need a barometer, don't we?
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: People will say, well, do I need the ten commandments?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: I said yeah, so you kind of can gauge where you're at.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Otherwise, you're right, it's just feeling.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: So love, love in today's culture has been reduced to a feeling, right to it, to romance, and there are feeling, and then that's further Been reduced down to an act, to a sexual act, and and then you just shake your head because you just go oh my gosh, I just I want to give that person a hug and say sit down with me, let's just have a glass of wine or a cup of coffee and and let's just talk to this, you know right, right.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's funny because, like you know, even I mean you can understand, I suppose, on a surface level, why one might think if they feel something and they know nothing, right they.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: But if they can understand how they feel something, that to them would be the most natural thing to go off, so you don't define words correctly.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: That's the other thing you see a lot of the society doing is they're changing language, they're desiring language, because if you can control language, you can control the narrative, and that's the.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: That's just.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: It is language is actually really so what I didn't realize I had a moment in adoration after I had my coming to Jesus moment and the Lord really Sort of just like came upon me and made me under, help me understand that natural, on a way that just blew my lines here.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: I was at 33 years old and I'm like, how is this so simple?
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Yet I never knew this, I never understood it, and when I understood it, I it was like everything fell into place for me and it was, you know, this idea that and I'm probably not gonna say it's gracefully I know many Theologians and, like you know, philosophers have talked about it, but it's like using, like we have a nature that has a purpose and so when you, you have so to use ourselves in the best way possible, essentially as to as to meet that purpose.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: So anytime you use yourselves outside of that purpose, you know, I mean like I that's actually another thing is like God, I used to think that Role sends in the rules and like all these commands were just rules.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: But here's the thing it's like, and I know a lot of people think that's right.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: That's why people think God's a tyrant.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: They're like you know that's what?
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Because they don't know.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: They're like, well, you know, you hear things like well, why can't I just do what makes me happy?
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: And it's like.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: It's like because we don't really know what happiness is right, and so we're, we're basing it off.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: We have to define happiness first, and you know a lot of theologians have already done that for us, thankfully.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: But I mean, to use ourselves in the most correct way would be to follow the natural law.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: That's what we're created to do.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: It's we're, you know it's.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: Does that make sense, you know?
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Am I saying oh, yeah, for sure.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so you're, you're talking about kind of two things, right, and you know, first of all, you know, we see our bodies, even, right, we see our bodies and, okay, there's a purpose to that, you know I, you know, before I jumped into you know, so I just worked out before I came on, you know, on the show with you and, and so when we're done I'm gonna jump in the shower.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Before you jump in the shower, you look down at your body, you go, you know what my body doesn't make sense without an opposite sex, without a woman, right, and, and you would do the same thing, right, so, so, so, that's a clue, but there's even more of it, you know, it's within our hearts now, right, so, so, these are, these are Multiple things going on, right, we could see it in the clues and stuff in there, but there's also, you know, there's a piece that we find in a happiness that's in with within our hearts, you know, and so you know we have, you know, the doctors of the church or brother would be good at this, you know, like.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: You know, like like Thomas Aquinas, you know, and you know he took Plato and then Aristotle, and you know he took their philosophy.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: They're searching for the transcendental's, what's true, what's good, what's beautiful and especially right the beauty of love.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: And now?
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: So Thomas Aquinas takes that and then he adds, he adds the divine revelation.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: Right, and this is what we're talking about here, nancy, is that that you sense this, it within you, you know, like a cognitive dissonance, right psychologists would call it right and so something's not right within you.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: You know we need parents and mentors, and, and, and, and people that have our goodwill and mind to say Nancy, I think this might be what you're looking for.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: It's not a rule per se.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: This is God.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: In other words, god doesn't kill, god doesn't lie, god doesn't steal.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: This is just, if you think about it like.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Which one of those don't you like?
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: You're right.
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: Right, because I don't like the rules.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: But, lucky, tell me which one you don't like right?
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's also.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: You know, when I heard the in the catechism I think it was in the catechism when I went, this was a while ago, but it was the example of the axe in the hammer.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you've ever heard that you know, and it really actually transgenderized that you transgenderism and it blew my mind when I saw this way is like my priest was like you know, imagine you were created as an axe and your, your job is to be able to chop things, you know.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: And so when you but then you just but you feel like a hammer.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: So you start pounding away on nails, but over time you pound so much and you in your, your blade gets dull and almost ignore Existent.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: And then when you look at yourself in the mirror, you start to see yourself as an, as a hammer, but not real, not a real.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: You were like like a hammer in the sense that, like broken axe.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: But you see it now you've confused yourself.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: You're like that's what I am.
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: And then when you stop sitting which would be the equivalence of stopped using yourself as a hammer, you're, you start to start from back up again.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: You start to see yourself and you start to be like oh, I am an axe and that's what God is.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: It's not I mean, it's a rule.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: I suppose I only like that word.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: It's almost like no, this is a guideline, for I'm telling you how to be happy.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: It's like if you, if you know you're an axe, you live like an axe and you do what acts is do you're going to be better for it's like a good parent telling us you know what I mean, it's his son or daughter, not we know it's.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: It's a loving, it's the most loving thing to do.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: And so you know we, we were very, you know our an election so dark and from using ourselves as hammers for so long that we it's hard for us to you know.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Because our desire is to do that be a hammer, you know.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, our reason, which seeks the truth, gets dark and, like you said, you know, and then our will, which is, is, is, is, is like a motor to the good, to choose the good if it's working well, but if it's not working well, we don't even know what that is.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: You know, one of the things that always stuck in my mind, john Paul the second said at World Youth Day to young people and and this really helps me define kind of what we're getting at for our purpose, you know.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: And so he would say young people, you know.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: You know he had that beautiful way that, young people, you know, your life has meaning.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: To the extent that it's given away as a gift to others.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Young people, you know that your life has meaning to the extent that it's given away, to, to, to others, and of course, we can't give what we don't have.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: And so that's what I wanted to.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: You know, find out where you filled your tank, nancy, because at the end of the day, I could just see this beauty of a glow coming out of you.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: And Look at, I just if I was there with you, I'd give you a hug, because you know you got this warm look to you and it's beautiful, and you know you got that from someplace, you know, and and look at where we're all human beings.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: We're in this tension between, you know, healing and being redeemed, and and we're not at the heaven yet.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: So we are battles, right, but we need to be there for each other, we need to share our stories, we need to love one another and the young people you know.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: So so I get filled, in essence, I get filled, and then I become right.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: So love God and love your neighbor.
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: It's, it's the two great, you know, commandments.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: If I, jesus, put them together as one great commandment.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Right, and it's not brain surgery, but it's hard because we're proud.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: We're too proud to.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Become an axe, right?
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: I know you're not gonna tell me what to do and then you give your life away.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: That's hurts, right, because I'm selfish.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: You know how many selfish, narcissistic people there are around today.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Be a gift to other people.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: No, I want to take grasp, you know, give me this.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: But when you do it, nancy, it's something changes.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: So, so, how did?
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: How did?
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: How did you get on this during what was as we?
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm cognizant of time.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah and I want it.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: I want you to just bridge this for us.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: You know you're looking for healing and look at, we're on a path.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: You know on a path.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, where did you find that spark?
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, where did you?
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Where did you come out and say, Okay, something's gonna change?
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: And who did that for you?
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Or how did that come about?
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Well for me and I'll.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: You know I'm cognizant of time as well, so I'll tell you as quickly as I can without.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: You know I'm stubborn.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: I need to learn the very, very hardest way.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: I Was my last moment.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: I Actually was at the darkest place I'd ever been in my entire life and that feeling, when we talked about earlier in the episode of people who want to die I would tell people.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: This time I didn't tell people, but I and I wanted to die, but I was ready to do it, and people who are ready don't tell people.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: So I actually had written a note to everybody my family and I was ready, I had everything kind of ready to go and I had.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: I was done.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Life had beaten me down into a place where I was too painful.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: I could not go on.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: I was such a wreck and you know.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: But yeah, by the grace of God, right before I did what you know, the inevitable take took.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: The end of the last walk.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I had a thought that popped into my head think Thankfully, like it saved my life.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it was my guardian angels, you know.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly to this day, but I know it was God, no matter what.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: And we have a sense, nancy, don't we?
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: We have a sense and we know it's got.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Something encounters us, doesn't it?
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: You can't hardly put it into words, but when I speak to people they know, they know.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: Sorry to interrupt you.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: No, it's okay.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: And so, you know, in the very perfect moment, as I'm about to, you know, do the unthinkable, I get this thought that's like just blaring in my head.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: It's so clear and the thought is what if the pain doesn't end here?
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Like, what if?
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: What if it gets worse?
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: And that was something I literally.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: It literally made me feel like a Suffocated animal, like I felt caged now with no way out, because this out that I had, which was supposed to end the pain and my head, the only reason to kill yourself, was because the pain was too much, I couldn't deal with it.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: So if I can't deal with the pain to the point where I'm gonna kill myself, you can guarantee that I can't deal with the suffocation, the suffocating feeling of thinking of like, how is it gonna get worse?
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: I couldn't afford it for it to get worse.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: That's what I could not afford, that to take that chance.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: And for some reason, this question was so.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: It's just like it was so real to me in that moment and I I felt like I was suffocating, because it was kind of like you're drowning.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: You're like I'm drowning, but also my way out is no way out.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: And then you know, I had that great moment of desperation, which was the best thing that ever happened to me my entire life, and I literally fell to my knees and I begged God to show Me he was real.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: I didn't have any idea at this point in my life that he was real.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: I I assumed he was just a story or you know some weird missed school thing that we all talk about and you know.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: But I begged him.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: I said God, if you're real, please show me.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: You have to show me, you have to make it clear, I told him.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: I said I'm very stupid.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: I said you need to spell it out for me, like I have to know.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: And I'm like please.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: I said I'm suffocating down here, I don't have, I don't know what to do and if you're real?
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: And I told him, I said you're real, I'll follow you for the rest of my life Because I was.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: I always knew God was the good and the devil is the bad.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: If these are real, I'm gonna choose the good.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: That's just.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: It always been in my heart, always in my heart.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I was a little girl.
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: I always wanted to choose good and so, anyway, I Ended up falling asleep that night and I don't remember falling asleep.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: I just sort of passed out from exhaustion.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, I was crying, I screamed at the top of my lungs over 30 times and it was just the ugliest night of my life, but also probably the most beautiful night of my life, because it was the night I really believe, I truly surrendered and my heart was just like I need you and If you're real, please show me that you're real.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: And so I did that.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: I did up falling asleep and the next morning I I woke up and I found a rosary in the side drawer of my nightstand.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Mind you, I didn't know I had this rosary.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: I know my brother gave it to me a few years prior or at some point prior, but I didn't know.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: You weren't expecting to open that up in that rosary to be there.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: You weren't expecting oh, not at all.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: I didn't even know what a rosary was like.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: I had to look it up, that kid, but I had it.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I saw the cross, I thought I saw the you know, and I was like, well, that's God, I think, right.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: And so it kind of prompted my head to like we gotta figure out what this is, because maybe it's a sign.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: And all from that point on when I asked God for it from to show me he was real, everything from that moment on till he actually showed me was a sign.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: It was.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: So I I said I knew how to read the mat.
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: He made it very easy for me to understand that he was speaking to me, even though I couldn't quite it's hard to explain.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: I thought I was being pulled in the direction and I couldn't say no to that direction.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: And so it was almost like like it was almost like a mystery game and I had to like he was giving me clues and I would follow those clues and it was that's how that's.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: And so, anyway, I ended up figuring out what the rosary was and I had to pray, and I pray this rosary, and it's the most peace I had ever felt my entire life.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: In that moment I didn't know peace like that existed first of all, and that prompted me to continue to keep praying.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: I was like, well, I'm certainly gonna keep doing this.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know what this is, just that I wasn't convinced God was really it, but I knew I felt peace and it was such an overwhelming One piece I couldn't put it down.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: And I still not, this day, put it down.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: I prayed the rosary.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: I pray the rosary every day and, you know, a few days later, after praying the rosary, I get this overwhelming urge to call a priest and so you, you're praying the rosary.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Did you figure out how to play pray the rosary?
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: I mean you're.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're just at first, you're just what kind of stumbling through this and and right, I mean, but God's gonna give you the grace, look at he's.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: He's not gonna technically hold back and say Nancy, doesn't know exactly what, but but but in your, in your mind, did you kind of what.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: How did you, you for somebody?
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Really say how did she start just pick up the rose?
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: You start praying the rosary, you know.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so what?
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: I actually had to figure out what it was first.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: I googled it, I counted the beads, I was like you know, I was so Google was good for something, nancy, yeah, google's good for yes.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so is you too believe it or not?
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: Because I found the same website used to stay.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: I found where they read it, but the reading was actually really hard for me.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: So I actually ended up on YouTube where they say it out loud, because I didn't know the difference.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: You know what a mystery was like?
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: I didn't.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: I thought at first, all four mysteries was like you had to say the whole thing, and that was the rosary.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize that you could just say one thing until I saw the videos, I saw him broken up, and so I was like you know, and to be honest, I'm gonna be very honest I did not know how I was doing it right and I might.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I did completely do it right, but I remember reading through on the website the different stories that were attached to them.
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I chose the sorrowful mystery and I only chose that because that's the only story I really knew.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: I Kind of you know that was, you know I knew about Jesus die on the cross.
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: Doesn't everyone know that?
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: That's part of like the whole point, and so I was like, well, I can go with that one to kind of remember.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I was like, so I went with that one and that's, but then that's.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: That's.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: That's kind of where the power all started, though, if you think about it, you know, we think it's the joyful mysteries, right, of course it is you know the incarnation.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: And then and you know, you know Jesus, you know, you know being born right in Bethlehem.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, the power, the power comes from that sacrifice on the cross, doesn't it?
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: So isn't it amazing that you started that?
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: You knew that story, you know as a kid we can know all kinds of beautiful stories, jesus's birth and this is Christmas, but no, the story that stuck in your mind was hey, think about that.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: That's pretty, that's pretty wild.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Right that I know.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Sacrifice, you know.
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and that was.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: That's actually really interesting because it kind of plays into something later on that I'll say.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: But Essentially, I first started praying the rosary.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: What I didn't realize then I had no language for it, I couldn't understand it.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: But what I didn't know is that that I realized now is that I was operating with graces.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: So I was, I was saying yes to the grace as I was receiving, even though I had no idea I was receiving grace the grace to even want to pick up to figure out what the rosary was, you know, the grace to pray the rosary again and again for three days, mind you, I mean, I'm somebody who, like I, look like I belong at a pride parade at this point in my life.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: I don't I'm fully like a gay person as far as I'm concerned.
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Like I have no reason, you know, he said, to go for one extreme to another in such a short period of time.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: It's quite miraculous, and so it even threw me off.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: It was weird that I was praying.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: I knew it was weird the whole time in the sense that like this is so, not me, but I can't stop.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: And oh, it was wow, you know operating with that and and that's powerful.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and our lady and you know.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: So a few days after praying the rosary, I pray, I think, two or three days in a row.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: I always get this part confused, but essentially I get.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: I get this overwhelming urge, for whatever reason, to want to talk to a priest, and that's why I'll tell me, because that is, I've just never wanted to talk to a priest in my life.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: I've heard the fact that I wanted to talk to a priest.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so insane, but I couldn't like.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Once again, I just want to, you know, nail down the fact that this was like an urge, it was like a little life because you're, you're, you're.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: You had a Protestant background so you could have searched for a minister, but she searched for a priest.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know people listening.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: I mean there's a distinction there.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Right, your background was Protestant, but you're searching for a priest here.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, priest, and I think you know part of that was the fact that it was the rosary and I knew, you know, my brother had converted a few years prior.
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: But like, yeah, it was a priest that was in my heart to look for, yeah, and so I did anybody suggests you?
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: and I don't want again, I don't want to go on the weeds here, but did anybody suggest that?
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Maybe you need to see a priest at some point, or you know, we're just trying to see where, because you said that grace, you know it's pouring in and I just it's, it's beautiful, it I got goosebumps.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: And when I, when I get goosebumps, when somebody's telling the story, that's like the Holy Spirit, that's the gosh.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: It's been happening for years as I'm listening to somebody and something will happen, like it's almost like goosebumps, I guess, like going up my spine, and at first I just thought, well, it's just because the story is so powerful.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: But then I realized God was touching me and just say listen, listen, listen to her right now, because this is powerful.
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: So thank you for sharing and I didn't mean to break in keep, keep, keep going.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: No to answer your question.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: No, nobody.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Nobody did I mean it wasn't.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Nobody was trying to convince me to be At this point.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: I mean nobody even knew I was on this journey.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: In fact, I kept it very private when I was praying, start praying.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't want my brother to know, I didn't want my I didn't want anyone to know because I Just I didn't want the pressure of having to feel like I had to find God.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: You know, yes, all I knew is that I asked God a couple days ago.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Like, mind you, in a weird way, I still have this belief that if I don't find God at the end of this, I'm still ready to kill myself because I was the pain's still there.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: I just didn't know that.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: You know, if there was a God, I wouldn't do it and I would follow him and I would do something different, but I couldn't do life anymore without God.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: So, you know, it was really, at this point, it was life or death for me.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: So these graces that that I'm operating with, you know, which I, like I said I wouldn't know, I wouldn't have known that they were grace at the time.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: It was weird, it was I'd get overwhelmed with like these, like these like physical, sort of like ideas of seeing something that I need to see, and it led me, like I needed to go see a priest that I don't Like.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know where that came from, but it was powerful and it was so powerful that I needed to see someone that day.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: It wasn't like this weird kind of like semi.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: You know, it was like life now, like call priests.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: So I called one right right then, and I Didn't even know what I was gonna talk to the priest about.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: I actually didn't.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: I had no idea in fact.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he'll tell you the same thing.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, I called him and they said you know, the priest is busy, he'll give you a call back.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: He called me back in an hour and I literally told him.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: I said I don't know.
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: I said I really need to talk to a priest and I really need to talk to someone today If you can make that happen.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: And he did and I said I don't, I'm just letting you know.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Right now I really don't know what I want, what I have to say to you.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I just, but I really still need to see you.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: And he met with me.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: And so when I got there, I think I'm pretty sure I said something along the lines of like I just need to know God's real.
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: And I was hoping that he would tell me, like Give me a good enough reason to be to believe.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: And of course he affirmed that God was real.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: He's a priest, you know.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: I mean yes, but even his words weren't like convincing to me, but it wasn't.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't feel like it was.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: I'm fruitful, I was.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, a lot of times priests are not trying to do that.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean, right, like they know that something moved you and they're trying to figure out what the spirit wants to say here.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: It's like they're not there to hammer you with the faith.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: You know they're there to Be there as part of this process with you.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: You know a good priest senses those things dance.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: He doesn't it right, yeah, they do.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: And so I went in and I told him.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: I told him my whole story.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I said, look, I'm gay.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: You know, at the time I don't call myself gay anymore.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: I say, you know, if anything, I say I'm somebody who who has had same-sex attraction.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: I think it's very important to to talk about ourselves in a way we don't call ourselves by our sin, you know.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: William the same as that.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: God calls us by our name, though, and so that's what I do now.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: But for the sake of the story I told priests at that day I said, you know, I'm gay.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: You know I don't know where I fit in all this, or if I.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: If I do, you know, but I don't know why I'm here.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: I just needed to talk to you and I and I was called.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: I just you know, and kind of fumbled my way through it.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: We talked for a little while and at the end he we basically talked about.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: He was like why don't you know catechisms classes have already started, but I would be happy to go through private catechesis with you if you'd be interested in that.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: And I was like I have no idea what you're talking about.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: Like, what is that?
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: Sounds like another language.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: He explained it to me.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: He's like well, it's where we talk about the faith, we can explain to you what we believe.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: And I was like you know, I was really hesitant still, because I was like I don't know, like what I don't want to have to, like be forced into converting and something I don't want to, and but I'm open, I want to know about what you're talking about.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: I just don't what if I'm not convinced?
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: By the end of it, like I don't want to waste your time either.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: And he was just not worried about all that, he was just like, if you're interested, like let's see what happens, right.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: So I was like okay, and so I left him that day and I thought that was really interesting and I was happy I wouldn't talk to him and I just go back and I keep praying my rosary.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: I just kept praying.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know why.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: That was the only thing holding me Under life at that point.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: It was literally the only thing was the rosary, was it, was it.
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: I couldn't understand it, I couldn't explain it.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I had no understanding what, the real depths of the rosary or what, what weapon I actually had in my hands, what spiritual weapon I had in my hand.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: I couldn't have.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: But you know, I still, even in my ignorance, I, I couldn't put it down and I I knew very well it was my lifeline, because it was the only thing that made me feel so my same.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: And so I kept doing that while I figured, you know, while I'm on this journey to figure out what, who god is, if he's real, and then a couple days later, after meeting with the priest, I get this other urge to go see a mass Out of nowhere.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Just like this random urge is like pushing again.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: It's almost like this magic.
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: I feel like it was, like I could be wrong, but I feel like it was my guardian angel, just like shoving me in the back and just like, okay, it's time to go.
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: Like we got things.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: We got, you got to.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: You know, be somewhere else.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: And you got you know, and so I wouldn't have seen it that way at the time.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Had you gone to mass?
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Had you gone to mass before, to a catholic mass before?
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: I'd been to one mass, like A few years prior, and I didn't.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: I didn't get it, I didn't like it, I was bored.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: I Thought there was too much moving up and down.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: What's this kneeling stuff for you?
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: I had been to one before, but it was like you know, I don't really remember much about it.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: You know, essentially, this is a draw.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: Now, this in spite of that right, because it's almost for that way, because, you know, like you Were at one, you said, well, that didn't do anything for me, so it's, it's actually really cool that you're saying no, he's drawing me back to that mass.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: You know, even though when I did go, it was nothing there.
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: You know, this that's pretty wild, that's pretty cool.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, exactly cuz like I was the first time I went, it was just sort of to please my family and I kind of just did it to.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: I want to be rude and I was just like I wanted.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: You know I don't that was so my heart wasn't in the right place.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: I wasn't there because I was looking for God.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: You know, I was there just to fulfill like an obligation very different reasons, you know and so this time it's like no, there's something there and you know, I felt called to go and so I look up the same Parish which is my Latin mass parish and second and California, and so I ended up Going to the church.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: It was the first service of the day it was, it was 7 am Mass and, mind you, I'm not gonna lie, I was terrified to go.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: I was absolutely terrified because you have to remember to when you live in the gay lifestyle for for 15, you know, plus years, you're also indoctrinated to a community of people who have it all wrong, and what I mean by that is like there for our Perceptions of like Christians.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: Even though I was raised Christian, I had many perceptions that impacted me over the years, like they hate us, they don't like us.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: You know they.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: They're gonna.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: No, I'm gonna stick out like a sore thumb.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: They're gonna know I don't belong there.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: They're gonna reject me and I and then I'm gonna feel stupid because I how could I?
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Once again, it's gonna beat down on that one wound that I already have.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not good enough for God to love me.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if they see that they're there, the if God is real, they're the real people.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: You know, they're God's people.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: I'm not and they're gonna know that they reject me, then I'm gonna, I'm gonna believe again.
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: God rejects me and and that was really the, the fear I couldn't afford being rejected again, not by him, you know, I mean.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Wow, we, you know that's so important too for people that are listening here.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: You know that we have to be so careful, don't we, nancy?
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: You never know when that person is Coming back.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: You know, and you have to.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: You have to have a, you know, an open heart.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: You know John Paul would say that the second word for love is mercy.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Second word for love is mercy.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: That's what you see on the cross love and mercy, huh.
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, how beautiful is that, you know, and I'll just back my brother, danny, as he was dying, you, he had AIDS and as, not on the very last minute he was dying, but he had come back into the church, you know, looking for meaning, purpose and and Same same types of things, you know.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, are they gonna accept me, is it?
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Well, no, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: Right, it's yeah.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he will, yeah, he will Right.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: And then, once again, I have, I'm operating on all these preconceived ideas of what I believe God to be, if he is real, you know now you walk in there by yourself.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: I'm and you walk.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: It.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: Was this a Latin mass, did you say?
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: It's a lot yeah okay, so, so you couldn't even a pick the novice ordo, where they're playing kumbaya up there.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know you're, you're.
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: No wonder you're scared.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: You're walking into a Latin mass and and so that's something you know, that is, you know it's, it's beautiful.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: I'm just picturing in my mind and God wants you there, yeah.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: That's where he sent me.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: That's where I really feel like I don't feel like I don't think I chose which church, because I drove by like 17 Catholic churches on the way this one.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: You know I can stop anywhere, but whatever reason.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: Like I didn't mind you, I don't know the difference in Latin mass and novice order at this point, like I have no idea that that's church stuff.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: That's stuff you learn later, yeah you know I mean so I don't know.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: I'm walking a lot in mass parish or even what that, what that means.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just walking to church that I'm feeling pulled to, and so I.
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: I get to this parking lot and all the sudden, like I'm, I have the biggest spiritual pack in my life, which I wouldn't recognize as a spiritual tax.
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about all of this stuff then, but the spiritual pack was just like.
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: It was like my whole life.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: It was like the way I would see it now and describe it now.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: It was like you know, I for the world, my whole life.
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: But once again, with kind, what we talked about earlier, even though I didn't realize I was working for the opposite team, I was, you know, even though I was ignorant of it, I still had, I had no order.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: I was working like you're not working for God, you're working for the devil, whether you consent to it or not, or whether you're aware of your consenting, and so you know he's not happy about that.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: I'm getting close to the sacrifice of the mass.
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: No, this is the battle zone.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: You're, you're in the battle zone.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, it's chaos and I feel it, I feel it and it's a stirring and I am just, I'm absolutely terrified.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: I'm just like the whole way to the door.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: It's like this, it's really like goes back to the devil on one shoulder and the angel the other.
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: It was like battle or between two.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's like you don't belong here.
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: You don't belong here, you know You're not supposed to be here.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: And then this other, you know this other voice that was like no, keep walking, keep walking, come in, you know.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: And so I followed that voice.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: That voice is stronger than the negative one for some reason, and I kept one foot in front of another and I just kept walking and I finally made to the prayer of store.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: And, mind you, I want to really reiterate for the viewers, because I don't think they can see me right now, but it's this idea that I look, you're like your typical butch lesbian.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna be really honest because you know it's important, because what you know, what, if people like me walk in the church, I don't know, I already didn't feel like I fit in, but, mind you, win the Latin mass parish, everyone's very Orthodox.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: You have your the veils.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: It's like a whole different, it's like a whole different world.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: And so I walk into this parish and I'm very I mean, I stick out like a sore thumb just by how I look, no matter what, like right off the bat.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: I'm horribly embarrassed and I you know it's absolutely beautiful and I it's weird because I can see the beauty all the sudden.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: I know I can see the beauty in it was and I just didn't feel like I was supposed to be part of that.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: I thought I was ruining.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: I felt like me walking in there was staining when I was witnessing and I didn't feel like I belonged in that and but I came in anyways, like I had this calling and I was like, just sit down, sit down.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: So I ended up finding a place in the very back of the parish.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's packed.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: There's the every seats full, all the pews are full, but there's this little seat right next to the door, essentially on the very back, which is great for me because I wanted an escape route.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: If I needed it, I was ready to run, you know, down and sit in that seat.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: So and then I see this candle above the parish, you know, and it's, it's in this little red candle and it's lit up right and, mind you, I don't know anything about you know the Catholic church at all and so I don't know that this candle actually means that you know that he's really present, you know In the church and you know in the tabernacle.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: I don't really understand what that means or anything about the Eucharist, but that was the candles that was lit and so I'm looking at this candle and, whatever reason, the only thing that can be sat At all, because I was in still so much fear that the only thing that kept me in my seat Was I just kept tearing over and over in my head Not auditory, it's really, I just want to make that clear.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: It's in my head.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: It's these thoughts.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: It's like keep looking at me, keep looking at me, and that was the candle, and I didn't look anywhere but that candle.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: I couldn't look away.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: I was like the fear was so overwhelming and I just kept looking at this candle and it was just like keep looking at me, keep looking at me, and that was the candle.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: And I kept looking at the candle and all of a sudden the organ starts playing and it was game over.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: I changed instantly.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to explain.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: I literally Fell apart everything in my body because it, when it felt like in that moment it was like all of a sudden I was being, I had never felt a love so intense, so encompassing, so it was breathtaking it changed the instantly that like I was like, oh my gosh, I don't even know what love is like.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: At first, I had no words.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: I was a blubbering mess, like people had to.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: Like people were looking around, like Are you okay?
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Like I could not hold together.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: I was absolutely bawling in my eyes out, like I, even if I wanted to like you know people who are crying a lot that they can kind of like hide it a little bit I couldn't hide it.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: I was really trying to, I couldn't.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: It was so overwhelming.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: It was the most overwhelming thing I'd ever felt in my life.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: It was like instantly, instantly.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: He had to show me.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: He was there, instantly.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: It was the most powerful experience in my life.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: Think about this, nancy.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: You know this powerful encounter, and this is before you've had a chance to really, you know, to accept it and receive the sacraments when you feel what you felt, yeah, and that love, and now he's going to take you to the, the nuptial wedding.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: Really, this, is the wedding feast like you know, do you know the picture of the divine mercy right from sister fosthena, jesus I trust it on my wall.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: So you see the white and the red coming right, yeah, so now the white is baptism and also reconciliation, right, confession, right, and so this is the nuptial bath, this is getting Nancy and jack wedding ready for a wedding and then, and then we get washed, and then we step in and we receive.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: The red is the, is the Eucharist, you know, the body and blood of of christ, and so he makes love to us.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: We become one flesh with god, right, this is a real union, and and and people Miss it, they don't get it, you know, and you, you think about the gift.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: You know, if you were never broken, if none of us were ever broken, we would never.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: You know, like adam and even the garden, before sin, they still, you know, were tempted because they didn't know how powerful that was.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: So you and I and millions and millions of others know something powerful I was broken and.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: I'm starting to heal, but in my healing by love, I'm healed by love and, like you said, beauty and the beauty of the, of the mass, but the beauty of the masses like a small beauty leading you into big beauty, right To God himself.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: And look, I don't want to put words in your mouth, I just get excited because I know what you're describing and and it's, it's, it's like you just know, you know.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, because like, I mean what?
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: Like when I say I tell people this, often to redefine my whole life, because it really did Like look, one of the biggest things, my biggest arguments I had before was like you know, why can't I just love another person?
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: You know, we use all you hear those things in the gay lifestyle.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: I love, love, love and all this stuff and it's like no, no.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: Instantly I knew I had no idea what love was, because when I felt that love and I never, ever felt anything like that in my life not from.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: I couldn't feel it, I was incapable of giving it, I was incapable of receiving it.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: I didn't have.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: I've never felt that in my life.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: It was, and it was not just like a slight, like you know, trying a new, you know cookie, for that you never taste or anything like that Over.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: It literally was like my whole body fell into alignment to what this was, whatever.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: This was my I knew I was made for it.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: I knew I was made for that because I was the most I felt whole and before I even knew the teachings of the Catholic Church, I hadn't started cacus yet.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: In fact, I ended up starting that the very next week.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: After this experience I was like, OK, I mean, my priest actually told me something funny.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: He was so weird, you never pushed back against any of the teachings.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: And he's like, usually we get a little bit more pushback against teachings or not understanding, because what he didn't know at the time is I, he didn't.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: I already accepted the teachings.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: I accept it all because if I didn't understand a teaching of the church, I recognized that I was the broken one, and if I didn't understand it, it was not that God was not, it was that I.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: He will help me understand, I think.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: I think I just didn't know he existed and he showed me my question and ever since then, my whole life, it's been.
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: I came in September, 29th Feast Day of San Michael.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: That was my confirmation day, my conversation with what year.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: What year is this now?
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: Is this September?
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: Is it last year?
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just last year, I mean isn't it powerful?
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that's, it's an incredible story.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: And what you just said there at the end, no, you know, if I don't understand it yet, I don't understand it.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: He'll either reveal it to me now or he won't, and at some point he will.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 2: And that's so beautiful, nancy, that's so beautiful.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: I actually really enjoyed finding out how broken I was.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: It was painful to realize that.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: Like you know because we're out there.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: You know you're broken, but you're like so does everyone else, and it's like you still commit yourself to a good person.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: I thought that I was as broken as as ugly as I was.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: I still would always say, well, I'm a good person.
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: You should ask my brother.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: It's hilarious.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: He'll be like, are you?
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, I know exactly what you mean.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: I know exactly what you mean.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: And so when I realized for the first time, like how unnot good of a person I really was, it felt, it was like, wow, it was actually such a relief.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: It was like, oh gosh, I can just accept what I am and know that this is what, this is who I am without him, and I don't ever have to be like that anymore, like I don't, like I somebody saved me from that Like I don't know, there's something to me.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: It was, it was profoundly.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: I was okay with that.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I am, I am broken and this is who I am.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: These are the things I'm capable of doing without our Lord.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank God for him.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean, because he provided a way and I'm going to follow that.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: You know, even though I understand it yet, I'm going to follow that He'll make me understand what I need to understand, what I need to understand it, and I believe that, as long as I stay close to him, Nancy, that was one of the most breathtaking outstanding.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: You know I asked.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: You know I alluded to when we started.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: You know the witnesses are often a bridge.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: You're going to be a bridge to a lot of people listening to this.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: You're going to be a bridge because you can just hear it in your heart.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: It's an amazing story.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: So God bless you.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: I kept you a lot longer than I said it was going to and it was well worth it.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: So thank you for your time.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate your time.
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: You know you have a brother there that came into the church ahead of you, so you have somebody to share with.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: I bet you and you know.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: Let me just say this with look, we're already over time, so let me just say this.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, of course I bet you it's fun for your brother.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: You know why?
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: Because, as a brother so I'm the oldest of five my other brothers, we all left the church during the sexual revolution and all this kind of thing.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: So I was brought back by my brother, danny, but the other guys didn't come right away and it took a while, you know, and always praying, praying, praying.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: Well, the brother that's closest in age to me is only 11 months younger than me.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: He was away from the church until about a year and a half ago and his wife died of cancer.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: I'll just tell you this real quick.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: He couldn't go to sleep and his anxiety and his grief was so bad and guess what?
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: He found the rosary.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: He found the rosary and then he came into the mass.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: You know, look at, we all have our own stories.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: But he found that rosary first and he gave him that piece that you described.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: And then we were always close, we were close in age, we grew up as friends.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: But there's what, when one person has that depth of encounter like you're describing, the other one doesn't.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: There's a separation there.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: But when the other person found it, I mean it's amazing.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: Now, when we're telling stories, we're talking about God all the time, and I never did that with him before.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: Like you don't feel comfortable, like you know, I keep talking about God to somebody who doesn't want to hear me.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: Well, now he's bringing it up and saying, hey, you know I'm not going to do that.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: And saying, hey, thank you for the piece, thank you for the piece.
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 2: You know, thank you that to our precious blessed mother.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: He calls her now.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: You know that she brought me this piece so I can go to sleep again and reduce this grief.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: And so the story you're telling is just so beautiful, so powerful, that again I was getting back to your brother.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: I bet he's excited to have you as someone that can share this journey now, because we need to share the journey together Right.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, he told me, and I don't want to take up too much time to try to be kind of your time to.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: But you know, he did tell me.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: You know, he said you know, for a long time I imagined, you know, I didn't think I'd have you in my life this way, and so we've.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: Our relationship is just tremendously grown in a way that I just could never imagine possible.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: Like, honestly, it's the greatest gift ever.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: And he, yeah, he often pinches himself because he loves to say who are you?
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: What have you done with my sister?
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: I love that you know when I say that I changed overnight.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: God really changed a lot about me.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: My mom, everybody looked at me different, like it wasn't like something I could hide anymore.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: It was like there's something changed me and now that is a change I have to continue to take every day and you know I have fallen in line.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: Now it's not like you know, but there was an obvious change that was undeniable and it's really actually in many ways healed my relationship with my family and we were very broken and so, yeah, if that hopefully can bring some hope to people, because it's you know, if somebody, if God, could save me, I'm telling you, don't worry.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: Just pray, just be a good Catholic.
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: Don't worry, god has got it.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: We have no idea he's the perfect author.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: We have no idea what he's doing, what he's up to, but it's going to be okay.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: Like you, just kind of stay faithful.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: You know, I really believe that.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, nancy, you are such a treat.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: Hey, listen, if people and maybe you don't want this to happen, but if they did want to, you know, follow your journey some more, or are you going to write a book about this?
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, your brother's a well-known writer, right, yeah, and so maybe he can help you.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: Co-authored a book.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 2: Look at you, know, I'm not going to.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: You know, just plan any seeds for fun here.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: But on the other hand, if people do want to know more or read more, have you ever written an article about this or no?
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: Or would you just say, hey look, I just told you the story.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: That's enough for every story?
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: No, no, A lot of.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: I do enjoy writing.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: I do share thoughts on Twitter.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: Most people follow me on Twitter.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: On Twitter.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: Right now People have asked me to write books.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: But you know, right now Sometimes known as X, right, Sometimes known as X yeah, exact.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: Sorry X.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you you on yeah X.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: My Twitter handle is cancel woke and the E is a three instead of an E.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, the other ones were.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: The other usernames were taken, so.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: I had to kind of settle for it but but yeah, is that okay?
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: if I is that okay, nancy, if I put that in the show notes, would you be comfortable with that?
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, okay, yeah definitely, but no, I'm open to it.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: I, I, I'm, I'm open to writing a book, but I just want people to remember I'm only four months confirmed and yeah, I.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: I have so much to grow from our Lord.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: You know, sometimes things take off, oh yeah, too quickly.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: It takes away time from him and really I came into the church so I could be closer to him and so if he wants me to write a book, I know he'll let me know that.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean, I don't worry about that.
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: And you know what, what you just said is so wise, what you, I, you know, I don't know if you realize.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: You know, when you come into the faith, you get a wisdom that you, you know, you go.
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 2: Where did where's this wisdom come from?
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: Right, you know?
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: You said in the beginning, god, you're going to have to hit me on the head, right, and then he pours the wisdom into you and you start expounding and telling these things and look at the wisdom coming out of you is amazing.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: You know, john, at St John of the Cross and and he was dear to John Paul II he wrote his doctoral thesis on on St John.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: But anyway, st John is saying where do you get wisdom from?
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: And he said love, you have to be a person of love.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: And then you have to be in silence, you have to be in prayer, right, so this is the rosary and the sacrament, and just listening to God.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: And then he said you have to, you know, go through some mortifications, and mortifications are like fasting or whatever, right, so so we have to detach, and that's what you do when you're on drugs, when you're on, when you're sexually active, and and you know, and you shouldn't be.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: You know blah blah, and so you have to detach from this world in a way.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: Right and so.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: So you're right If you start writing a book right now, you know it's, you know God is.
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: This is the honeymoon and he wants to take his bride on vacation for a while first.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: But he's taking the on vacation and he says we'll get to all that work later on, you know.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 2: So yeah, exactly, I agree with that, and I I have so much to learn, so I'm still very new, and I'll tell you what if I, if I ever get to your area in California, I'll I'll ring you up and I love to love to grab lunch with you.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: Hey, god bless you.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: You're such a treat, you're such a gift.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: And I can only express my appreciation for for sharing your story.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: So God bless you, nancy.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you too.
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: Bye-bye everyone.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: Thanks for tuning in.
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: I'll see you in the next video.