Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to the best; Si & Frazer about their choice of The Seeds of Death (6/6)

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Talks to the best; Si & Frazer about their choice of The Seeds of Death (6/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:33
Hamster with a Blump Pen Knife for doing quicker, quicker,
0:39
quicker. Welcome back to a Hamster with a
0:41
Blump Pen Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary Podcast.
0:46
Now look here Simon Hart and Fraser Gregory.
0:50
I'm sick to death of your monstrous opinions on this
0:54
podcast and I have decided to develop.
0:58
A rather comical looking weapon. Who Quickie the Quark, and I'm
1:03
going to murder both of you. And then we'll get into the 40
1:07
subjects of whether, morally speaking, I should do that.
1:12
This episode of Doctor Who features the Doctor.
1:18
He's probably most I say morally like black.
1:24
He murders a bunch of people of this.
1:27
Then he murders an entire army of people, and then it's like,
1:31
yay. Well, we did that back to the
1:33
TARDIS. Everybody, let's go.
1:35
No discussion as to whether it was right or wrong.
1:39
Like they're bad, they're good. The end.
1:42
They're all dead. What the hell do you think about
1:44
all this, Fraser? I have a different question.
1:54
Do not hate me with another question, right?
2:00
My. Question.
2:01
What's your question? Is if it's okay for Patrick
2:05
Trenton's Dr. to do this. If it's okay for the 2nd Doctor
2:08
to stalk through the corridors of the Weather control station
2:13
with these backpack going all Bruce Willis on.
2:17
Guns. I swear it's okay for.
2:22
The 3rd Doctor pull out an Ogron blaster and blast Ogrons and
2:25
David Daleks. If it's okay for Sylvester McCoy
2:28
to destroy Skull with unlimited Race Pudding, why is it not okay
2:35
for Jodie Whittaker's Dr. to do any of this?
2:38
Well, who said it's not? Bandham, The Internet.
2:42
Everyone in the world. Looking for excuses to not like
2:45
Jodie Whittaker's Dr. Down. They're all terrible old sexist.
2:52
It's not. It's not okay.
2:53
That's that's my point. It's not okay.
2:55
And I think this is probably a few exceptions aside, the worst
3:01
behavior the Doctor exhibits. But I think he gets away with it
3:05
because he's a comical about it and a bit silly and a lot of
3:08
fun. It's okay, so we've got the
3:13
Doctor slaughtering Ice Warriors, but the end of the
3:17
Moon Base features the Doctor. Coming up with a plan that's
3:21
going to blast the Cybermen into the sun at the end, it's exactly
3:26
the same and everyone says that's okay, no one, and we even
3:30
get a Hooray that's taken care of the Cybermen moment as well,
3:34
which we don't get here. What I find fascinating, this is
3:38
one of the things that came out of the wonderful day last year,
3:43
which was the tribute to Terence Dick's day.
3:46
That I'm Stephen Moffat, who is a very clever and erudite man.
3:49
When he's talking about Doctor Who and its history, he comes in
3:54
and he says the Doctor isn't the absolute moral hero until
4:00
Terence Dix gets hold of the 3rd Doctor and makes him this
4:05
morally crusading, never cruel, never cowardly, and redefines
4:11
the Doctor as as the hero. Here we're still in.
4:16
The flux of the first six years of Doctor Who, where Doctor Who
4:19
is all over the place and there isn't a fixed the Doctor is the
4:25
moral center of the series. He is in lots of ways, but he's
4:29
not. It's not fixed like that.
4:31
This is still an action adventure in time and space, and
4:37
it's not really until, I think, when.
4:41
At the surprising moment when John perts, we is confronted by
4:44
the Silurian and just turns around office his hand and says,
4:47
hello, are you a Silurian that that version of the Doctor that
4:53
we we come to know is really formed.
4:57
And that's so that's not till 1970.
4:59
We're we're seven years in at this point, you know?
5:02
I mean, that's next year though, isn't it?
5:04
Yeah, yeah. And it's it's.
5:05
Coming from a shift. Is about.
5:06
It's like a big shift happens. But it does happen, and it
5:10
hasn't happened before this moment.
5:12
The Doctor has become the center of the series, but he's not
5:15
necessarily morally any better than anyone else at this point.
5:21
He's not a paradigm. It's very much monsters all bad,
5:26
isn't it? At this point, it's very.
5:28
Absolutely. And it's no different to that
5:31
bit of TV comic that everyone pulls out to say, oh, this isn't
5:34
like Doctor Who, where? Fountain is blasting someone
5:37
with his new Ray Gran saying die hideous creature dies and but it
5:42
is absolutely reflecting what's on TV.
5:45
He slaughters lots of things. He he engineers the war between
5:51
different factions of the Daleks and wipe out the Daleks.
5:54
He destroys the Cybermen. At the end of the Moon Base and
5:59
in the Tomb of the Side Men, He's completely morally
6:02
ambiguous through that story. A lot of it's done from afar
6:05
though, isn't it? A lot of it's done en masse from
6:08
afar in the Moon Base and stories like that.
6:11
Yeah, he rigs up equipment and then the shoes.
6:15
The I stories for he's the Doctor is basically the villain
6:18
of this piece. Running around with a gun,
6:20
shooting the monsters. I think if you go back to the
6:24
superior version of the story, the Ice Warriors, you have the
6:26
end of that which is, you know, it really kind of plays into
6:32
that, you know sort of model on bigotry because you know, the
6:36
doctor lets the the humans of Protonix base decide what to do
6:41
at the end. You know, it comes to the point
6:44
where you know, should we use the ionizer to.
6:48
You know, blew up the Ice Warrior ship and the doctors
6:50
like, no, you have to decide that.
6:52
You guys have to decide that. I know the answer, but I'm not
6:54
going to tell you. You have to, you know, make that
6:57
decision for yourself. And it takes, it takes Penley
7:00
and say, yeah, let's just fire it up and and ZAP them, You
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know, he's, he's a little bit tricksy like that, isn't he?
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Yeah, but also he's gone in with with a stink bomb that's going
7:11
to kill them all. Yep.
7:13
Just in case. So, you know, Yeah.
7:16
With that shift that comes into the 70s, it's a sort of shift as
7:21
well that allows us to see the Ice Warriors as a good race as
7:27
well. In terms of Pentagon has no hint
7:29
of that here. And wonderfully, the Doctor is
7:33
portrayed as terribly xenophobic because of.
7:38
That as well, which is a really nice bit of characterization.
7:42
Is Leah should have said, well, what happened when you last met
7:44
my people then, you know, Yeah. You're you're remembered as the
7:47
Slaughterer of the Ice Warriors. But you you make a good point
7:52
there about xenophobia, because my other question is this, and
7:55
I'll hate to go a bit deep in episode 6, but I'm gonna so then
8:00
if we're portraying monsters, i.e. the other.
8:03
As the villains of the pace, is this just an incredibly racist
8:07
period of Doctor Who and? No one wants to touch that one.
8:17
No, I want to say no. I think it's a period of Doctor
8:22
Who where the the show is very clear with what it does and it
8:28
does it repeatedly and it is the Doctor fights the monsters and
8:32
wins. Yeah, that's the basic formula,
8:37
isn't it? Yeah, that's the form.
8:39
That's the formula. That's what happens.
8:40
You know, we've kind of moved away from sort of the heart, not
8:45
area, which is, you know, the Doctor goes back in time and we
8:48
learn something and then we go forward in time and the doctor,
8:52
you know, gets into a scrape and gets out of a scrape.
8:55
And we're now into the period where, you know, the doctor
8:57
fights the bodies. And wins.
8:59
Why the bad is the the the aliens people that?
9:05
Cause Doctor Who was about monsters still at this point.
9:09
Yeah, but ultimately, again, you know, you look at things like
9:12
the enemy of the world where you know the.
9:19
Is that the exception to the world?
9:21
Yes. You look at a few from the deep
9:24
where it's not even trying to take over the world or anything,
9:27
it's just. To win what form does?
9:32
I don't know though. I don't know if there are
9:34
something in the zeitgeist back from like the Second World War
9:37
in in some of this writing of of the other being being the
9:41
villains of the peace that should be killed.
9:43
And I think there's a massive shift in when we hit the
9:46
Silurians where that whole idea is turned on its head and we're
9:52
the monsters that have, that have taken over and that are
9:55
invading. And and there is sort of like a
9:58
new way of thinking about things as we head into the 70s.
10:01
Yeah and I think a lot of that also as well as Terence comes
10:05
from the partnership of Terence Dicks and Barry let's because
10:08
Barry let's is was the kind of man who would call out the
10:14
doctors behavior or call out the Brigadiers behavior.
10:18
Although I think he'd allow any of this, Barry, no.
10:20
No, very probably not, because he was the one who came in and
10:23
said you've got to change the end.
10:25
Of the Silurians. The Doctors got to comment about
10:28
how awful this is because there wasn't that in there originally
10:32
he's he's on that so he and Terence reformat the show and
10:38
he. I suspect this would not have
10:40
got well this wouldn't have got through on his reign I.
10:43
Mean you see that but then. He's slaughtering.
10:47
Oh grons, you know, the the third doctors going around
10:50
picking up a gun and coming around, you know.
10:53
Is up the newer grounds left, right and center, which for me
10:55
is is. Is just as it's completely
11:00
unjustified. But I do think that is a that is
11:03
a bizarre aberration. That scene and I think Terrace
11:07
Dix has said sins Americans should never have got through.
11:12
However that got through it should never have happened
11:14
because Pertly does always. Generally, I know that the ice
11:17
was because it's got history, but he generally treats.
11:20
Aliens. You know, the Draconians and the
11:22
all the delegates on Peladon with sort of a lot of respects,
11:26
isn't it? It's respect first, fear second.
11:29
I wonder if if part of the issue with the story is, is that the
11:33
Ice Warriors are actually people You know they've got names.
11:37
Yeah, the Cybermen or just Cybermen.
11:39
When you look at the Moon Base, it is.
11:40
Just, oh, grams are just oh, grams.
11:42
Sorry grantly but. Yeah, it's it's, you know, like
11:47
Daleks and Daleks. So yeah, and do what I want to
11:49
Daleks so we know that evil Cybermen are just blank, you
11:53
know, virtual robots. And you know, when it comes to
11:57
the Ice Warriors, it is more personal because they've got
12:01
names, they speak, they have characters as we've discussed.
12:05
So does that make it more difficult for us to palace?
12:10
They're one of the first races as well.
12:12
I'm just thinking about this where there there are
12:15
individuals within. So I mean, obviously we've got
12:20
the original side of men who all had names and things like that,
12:23
and your tech leader of the alien vault and stuff.
12:27
But this is really the first race where we've got monsters in
12:32
conflict sometimes with each other and different different
12:37
voices and different different tones.
12:40
Less so here than in the Ice Warriors, but it's still.
12:46
But swinging backgrounds to the morality again.
12:48
When Trout and faces up against Slaw, he says you were going to
12:52
destroy this planet and and and there's no other option.
12:56
He doesn't even look for another option.
12:58
He is going to send that fleet, that entire fleet of Ice
13:03
Warriors. I'm sure there are families and
13:07
and all of this. He's just done it.
13:10
He's done it without. That's happened.
13:13
As well as the confrontation with Slaw that has happened, and
13:17
that's done without any questioning or qualms at all his
13:22
at least his confrontation with Slaw.
13:24
There is the possibility that slaw might be redeemed because.
13:30
I might kill the moon where there's like a oh God, should we
13:33
do this, you know, what are the consequences of this?
13:36
There's just none of that here at all.
13:39
And because the show isn't equipped almost at this point in
13:44
its history to do that. But it's there in the next
13:47
season. Yeah.
13:49
But it's only with Sailuians. It's only with the Sailuians.
13:54
Well, they touch it in the Sea Devils as well.
13:57
To a certain extent, But then again, the Doctor is very happy
13:59
just to, you know. Blows them all up at the end.
14:03
Oh well, they didn't listen. Oh well.
14:04
Never mind. Well then they're literally
14:06
playing with the idea of good and bad in the Curse of Pella
14:09
Dome. So I think it is in the in the
14:11
air. But you know.
14:13
I mean, it really comes to its head in Genesis and the Daleks,
14:15
doesn't it? Finally, where you get the
14:18
biggest confrontation of should I wipe out a race?
14:22
Should I do this? Then you you have terror of the
14:26
Zigons coming up to stories that there's no question about
14:30
whether the the Zigons who have left to die in Planet should be
14:34
allowed room on Earth. That only comes in in Moffett's
14:38
time, so. Are we saying that the show is
14:43
already muddy, depending on who's writing for it?
14:47
Yeah. I think it's right, I think
14:51
trying to. Overlay A moral stance on Doctor
15:01
Who is really, really tough because it isn't there.
15:04
And and then you get the very hypocritical, oh, I don't like
15:07
guns being later on with David Tennant.
15:11
And then who ultimately turns around and becomes the ultimate
15:15
weapon? And with Peter Capaldi as well,
15:19
where? Just wait, but hang on, you
15:22
know. Two, regeneration back.
15:26
You were instigating a great big fight with, or bringing your old
15:30
friends back to. To fight people in a good man
15:35
goes to war, and so morally, you're all over the fucking
15:38
place. And that's a really good point,
15:40
because I think after this, the only other time where we get an
15:45
overtly. Charming comic Doctor Who
15:50
performs really despicable acts, but does it with a smile and a
15:55
lot of charm. Is Matt Smith's 11th Doctor.
15:58
Yeah, who is based on Patrick Troughton's.
16:01
Doctor Yeah. And again, it's a fascinating
16:03
talking point because he's a very likable Dr. He's also a
16:07
bit. Upcoming at times.
16:11
Anyways, sorry, I thought we'd start so.
16:13
We'll wrap it up there then you know, we'll sort of raise the
16:15
tool we're having to take for sure now.
16:18
Now let's So here we go with episode seven of The Seeds of
16:21
Death. I'm looking out as in.
16:25
OK. Go on, I love I love getting
16:28
nitty gritty with you too. Do you know Marvelous You
16:31
always. I'll turn over rocks and you 2.
16:33
Find really fascinating things to say in five.
16:37
That's front. Yes, you've done that one
16:38
already. You 4321.
16:46
Okay, so I have a question for us from Hang On from James H who
16:55
is at Fitzgeek UK on Twitter, who says he is editing extra
17:02
footage into a cliffhanger recap.
17:04
A valid way of resolving as cliffhanger or is it a total
17:08
cheat? The latter.
17:12
Oh, it is completely achieved, isn't it?
17:14
I mean, you're you're giving false, you're putting false
17:18
jeopardy into a situation. Where there was none in the 1st
17:21
place. Yes, Fraser.
17:24
No. Well, of course you can very.
17:29
I mean I think we've, I think I've discussed this with you and
17:34
shows Joe, but what's the point of a cliffhanger, point of the
17:38
cliffhanger is to get you watching next week.
17:40
Yep. Yep.
17:41
And it's not breaking the narrative, isn't it?
17:43
As. Well, the resolution of the
17:45
cliffhanger shouldn't be, you know, shouldn't impact on that
17:51
cliffhanger. You should be able to judge the
17:53
cliffhanger and say, well you know that's that's what it was
17:56
and I know you know where he's coming from.
17:59
You look at this, you look at image of the Fender and Mark of
18:04
the Ronnie where it's like. Deadly assassin.
18:07
Yep. Where?
18:10
Extra bits, you know, That's how we get out of it.
18:13
But there's also the really weak ways of getting out of
18:16
cliffhanger, which will be the sort of like, no, don't kill
18:19
them. Yep.
18:21
Yep, and if you look at the one. The worst one of that is Fraser.
18:25
So. And I did that in the snake
18:26
doves. Kill them.
18:28
No, dude. Or you have sort of the one
18:33
we've just had with them with Zoe where she's like, oh, you
18:37
know, she's got a backup against in the.
18:40
And the ice was going to move on up.
18:42
But then, you know, Fusion jumps on his back, gets his log logs
18:46
boxed a bit and it's, you know, you, you know that they're not
18:52
going to die, these characters. They're not, you know, the
18:54
jeopardy is always false because it's not, you know, just going
18:58
to, you know, kill them off and whatnot.
19:02
So there's always going to be, you know, you're probably
19:04
watching the Cliff. I'm going to see how does it get
19:06
resolved and yeah, if you sneak a little bit in.
19:10
To that, then I think that's fine.
19:13
But I do think. I just say I just love Razer
19:15
Hines's way of distracting the The Ice War of Good.
19:23
I mean, he's basically been reduced to a lot of business and
19:25
he Jamie, but it's good news. He's so good at it.
19:30
I think I think you're probably right.
19:32
That a cheat is not very satisfying.
19:35
You're definitely right as well in that the cliffhanger itself,
19:38
how the cliffhanger is executed to get you back in the next
19:42
week. That's true as well, but it is
19:45
better when it's a satisfying resolution.
19:47
Surely. Oh absolutely.
19:51
So what are your most satisfying to resolve cliffhangers then?
19:54
I think caves one to two is brilliant, I think.
19:59
The fact that you saw those androids for a split second
20:02
coming into the room is brilliant.
20:04
I know, I know, you're laughing. I can't help but laughing.
20:08
Oh my word. That was a close one.
20:11
Look at the state of it. Even I've not been covered that
20:15
much, I'll tell you. I have to say, one of my
20:18
favorite resolutions of a cliffhanger is part four of the
20:23
Pirate Planet. Oh yes, which is just brilliant.
20:27
And really. Funny and and.
20:30
And a huge plot reveal. Yes, exactly.
20:33
And it it does everything spectacularly.
20:36
Yeah. Can you think of 1, Fraser?
20:41
The doctor dancers. Brilliant and really, really
20:48
clever. It's absolute just simplicity in
20:53
you know, it comes out of nowhere.
20:54
You don't see a queen, but it's so simple and.
20:58
Obvious when you think about it and that that's how he gets out
21:02
of that. The fact that he create a
21:04
resolution in the Doctor dance is so simply and smile.
21:09
It feels effortless. And then he goes on to do that
21:12
thing again and again where he does a cliffhanger, and then he
21:15
just starts the next episode somewhere else and you're like,
21:20
did you just watch Wendy? Padre comes skidding into the
21:22
scene there, Now this is it. No.
21:28
This is this button. No, Jamie.
21:30
Oh. That's so funny, Fraser.
21:33
Well, you said they're selling a lot of the rest of this season
21:35
on this free this is it because. We haven't had them together for
21:41
a little while and so it's just a joy to see them all back and
21:45
look at them, all three of them carrying together by the door
21:48
and they're all. Pretty much the same height,
21:51
that's. Clever look at that.
21:53
She's in that in layer mirror line of them trying to yeah
21:55
door. That's really small, isn't it?
21:58
City Ice Warrior, You can't. Mirror line.
22:00
Mirror line. Yeah, they're desperate now.
22:05
They're Mira Lauren. I can't even say it.
22:08
You don't say. Right.
22:10
He has a question for you. Who's got the best helmet?
22:14
Is it the security man who went up the form or is it the ICE
22:17
Marshall? Don't you even come at me.
22:20
He's got the best helmet, Fraser.
22:22
Gregory, did you expect me not to react to that?
22:28
Should we just meet them? Sorry.
22:29
And we can answer that one. It's definitely the sparkly
22:33
helmet, isn't it? Everyone loves the sparkly,
22:37
that's. The Disco Ice Warrior that is it
22:39
is I wonder how how many Sparks sparkly circles I'm going to put
22:45
on my helmet today. It's a bit much so in it and
22:48
then they shine the light on it so it sort of listens.
22:53
My disco ball. Do you know, I do love the look
22:55
at these security men, though? They're not bad, are they?
22:58
Considering some of the strange costuming we've had in the rest
23:03
of the show this week, This is not bad.
23:06
Well, I think it's quite refreshing to get some good old
23:09
fashioned machine guns going. And for once, we've met an alien
23:13
that is immune to bullets. And to contrast that, we've got
23:18
the doctors ridiculous bloody weapon here now it may be about
23:21
to commit mass slaughter. I just.
23:25
It's one of those wonderful things of trout and covered in
23:28
wires, putting something together.
23:31
I always love those scenes because again, it's him bumbling
23:35
and putting things together at the last minute and it's never.
23:38
Never smart. And This is why I always feel
23:41
like Spearhead from Space is a is The Doctor is written like
23:48
Patrick Troughton and is played very much like the 2nd Doctor in
23:52
lots of ways. Because I think Pertley is doing
23:54
the same kind of things where he's putting together a machine,
23:57
there's lots of wires and he's handing it all to Liz and it's
23:59
all a bit of a mess and and things like that.
24:01
There are lots of echoes of of scenes like in this story there.
24:08
I don't think. I don't.
24:09
I'm wondering, I don't know if it is Dicks, maybe it's Hulk.
24:14
Because Fraser, when we did Ambassadors of Death, we were
24:17
talking about, you're right. And he just does the thing with
24:24
his head, like, come on, we'll get off.
24:27
Get off my land, I'm. Busy with this?
24:29
Free and here, all right? I'll.
24:33
Deal with you a lot later. We're going back to that point.
24:40
Sorry about how the Doctor is with the ambassadors as well in
24:45
Ambassador Death, and Hulk had a obviously a big hand in the
24:48
Silurres and in Ambassador Death and how the aliens are treated
24:51
in both of those stories. It's so different from here.
24:57
Look at the light in there on Trouten, it's really.
25:00
Nice, wasn't it? And subtle.
25:02
Don't you find this a bit chilling?
25:03
Yeah, he looks really, really silly and fun and it's a great
25:06
scene. And he's committing murder like
25:09
it's. I mean there's there is a sort
25:13
of element of no other choice. It's not like he's just you know
25:19
all well we'll go out and we'll you know let's go Ice Warrior
25:23
hunt and it's like this the trapped in with the ice Warrior
25:25
they need to you know save the earth and save the security
25:30
guards. So there was that sort of
25:31
element of back to the wall do you think?
25:35
Not as to why, when all those people were possessed and fury
25:38
from the deep, didn't he just go around and murder all them then?
25:42
Because it didn't just all walk into the sea or something and.
25:46
Well, they go around sabotage and murdering people and doing
25:50
terrible things. I don't know.
25:51
I just think there's a there is a shift between what we can do
25:54
to people and what we can do to monsters.
25:59
I think it's a bigger question and we'll take a lot of research
26:02
to put something properly together for this because it's
26:05
it's a huge, huge question. In the meantime, we've got our
26:09
new futuristic drama ensemble here, Miss Kelly, Eldrad and
26:15
Bradnall. I said.
26:18
Don't forget, take off. It take off like a rocket from
26:24
my back garden that I've been building without no one
26:27
noticing. You know, you know, like all
26:32
that dreadful woman from space 1999.
26:35
What's her name? Arba Bayne.
26:37
Thank you. Or the lady from UFO.
26:40
Well done. Sigh, yes.
26:42
Gabriel Drake. Like Miss Kelly is that sort of
26:45
character, isn't she? She, she, Yeah.
26:46
But she is. But she actually smiles and has
26:49
some emotions. I think she could head a series,
26:52
you know. I think she she's really cool
26:55
and she looks really cool. The adventures of team at.
27:01
Give it a big finish, I'm sure they can do something with it.
27:04
I'll give Martha as Fraser. All right, I.
27:08
Don't think they need any. So what we're doing now then,
27:12
and we're trying to make it. Patrick Trout is trying to make
27:14
it rain. It's.
27:15
Fucking England. Just wait 5 minutes.
27:18
Yes, but we're in England. Put it on.
27:20
It's controlled. The Ice Warrior has put all the
27:25
controls on dry on. Dry so it's not going to rain.
27:30
Oh dear, I mean, I didn't think that through, the day said then
27:33
I was podged down to a planet like Earth where it rains all
27:35
the time. Well, no, but they did because
27:39
they gone to the weather control.
27:41
So put everything on dry. Yes, man, the plan's kind of
27:46
built in. I do wonder now if these
27:49
sequences on the moon, you know, lack a bit of interest Now.
27:52
We haven't got a few Shamere anymore.
27:53
It's just a load of monsters talking to each other.
27:56
Yeah, don't worry, the Doctor will be back to slaughter them
28:01
soon. Just a bit in a minute where you
28:05
know after they're going into the sun and then the Grand
28:08
Marshall was saying to Slaw, what have you done?
28:12
You know you can close up on Slaw's face to say my career is.
28:17
Fucked. Yeah, oh, like face palming.
28:23
He should have just said that. I'll just kill me.
28:25
I'll never come back from this. Basically, Boris Johnson after
28:30
the pandemic and it. Sorry.
28:35
Imagine how much money slaw is going to make on the on the.
28:40
Chat show front, Yes. He's brought a book out.
28:44
On the on the dinner party trail afterwards, yes.
28:47
I'm doing my new book tour. Speeches the best.
28:52
Entitled It Was All That Cosmic Hobo's Fault.
28:57
It hadn't been for those doctors.
28:59
Pesky kids. The Doctor and me may form
29:04
dairies. Let's not even pretend, right?
29:09
Especially SI, who's got every Doctor Who book going, wouldn't
29:12
be buying all of these. Well, well, we've learned
29:16
something. Both say this.
29:17
Yeah, but they don't read them. I've read nearly all of.
29:25
Them we need to ask more target book related questions on these
29:28
commentaries, don't we? Yeah, we need to wheel them out.
29:33
God, it's like Macy and I've never watched the Dominator say
29:36
that's that's. So you know, in a minute we get
29:40
that that fabulous film sequence of the satellite and space game.
29:47
So the doctor's got a sort of mini version of that on his
29:49
shoulder, yeah. No.
29:52
What? No, The doctor has sent up a
29:55
satellite to send a signal that's going that will supersede
30:01
the one that is being sent from the moon base.
30:05
So they've got their signal device and so he's got to go and
30:08
turn that off. So they only go to the satellite
30:12
one. He's got the the gun to kill any
30:16
Ice Warriors. Who?
30:17
And slaughter any Ice warriors that get in his way while he
30:20
does that. Okay.
30:24
What Fusham did was Fusham broadcasts the home and signal
30:28
for the Ice Warriors so they could video it and could
30:31
replicate. If the idea is if they, you
30:33
know, reproduce the home and signal but put it off course
30:36
into the sun, then the the Ice Warriors can't find planet Earth
30:42
for some reason and it's not like they've got a map of
30:45
anything. The closest plant to them, but
30:49
then they won't be able to find Earth and they'll fly off into
30:52
the sun. But in order to do that, he
30:53
needs to go back to the moon and turn off the original signal.
30:57
And you don't know for a while whether he's managed to do it or
31:00
not. It's Patrick Trout, the chance
31:02
to come in and confront the villain in a in a way so that
31:06
thing on his shoulder, there's like a massive Duracell battery
31:09
for his. Yeah, basically it's like a
31:11
solar battery. Right.
31:13
OK. Yeah.
31:16
As we said before, Michael Ferguson does at least shoot the
31:19
Ice Warrior deaths by the solar gun really beautifully, and the
31:23
cutting is absolutely superb. I feel as if we've done a
31:28
fantastic Ferguson watch throughout this, you know?
31:31
Yes. So Doctor thinks, oh, that's
31:36
right. And then Jamie comes in at the
31:37
last minute, doesn't he? And goes.
31:39
To save him, yeah. Yeah, that bit's a bit funny,
31:45
actually, I thought, I'm not sure it's very dramatic, the way
31:48
he sort of leaps on that ice war.
31:53
No, you could tell they was waiting just outside the door
31:55
there to come in. Likes an entrance, as we saw in
32:01
episode one. Stop spoiling the magic drawer.
32:04
Oh, it is wonderful. I love the height discrepancy
32:06
between trout and the monsters. It's always good, isn't it?
32:09
And here he's on a raised platform and they're still
32:14
towering over him. I ordered you to be destroyed.
32:18
Well, you weren't very successful then, were you?
32:20
He doesn't. Imagine, isn't it?
32:28
Look at the state of his hand. Think of.
32:32
Think of his confrontation with Vaughn.
32:34
Oh, you're a fool, Vaughn in The Invasion.
32:37
Think of his confrontation with the War Chief in the War games.
32:42
He gets great like face offs in this season, doesn't he?
32:47
Cause he's a brilliant actor and they put brilliant actors
32:51
against him so he sparks off them and they give it their all.
32:58
Perhaps I could get the hang of it.
33:04
But I suppose this actually shows that you should.
33:07
He does look very happy, doesn't he?
33:08
That ice work, that one keeps turning up because there's the
33:14
in cursive ad monster peloton that's that one smiley ice for
33:17
it, isn't there? He's always in the back scenes.
33:22
Oh, he's going to do one more bit of business now, isn't it?
33:27
You know, that model work there. That's that's as good as the
33:32
model work in the space. That's mostly done well.
33:36
When I think of those little Tinker toys from the invasion,
33:38
do you remember? And that that lemon squeezer
33:43
one. Remember that?
33:45
What's? That which ones?
33:47
Are the Dominators. Oh yeah, that one.
33:51
The Dominators. Yes, that because that becomes a
33:53
massive flying saucer that lands on a on a corner.
33:56
Yeah. Actually I thought that,
33:57
especially if it was pretty good.
33:59
Yeah, that's not bad, really. We're all Dominators fans here
34:04
now. Yeah, and I once went 17 years
34:07
between watches of the Dominators, and I would have
34:10
gone a lot longer if Steve hadn't made me watch it.
34:15
Fraser's great work continues. Everyone's got their little
34:21
niche. Shouldn't they sigh?
34:23
You are tales of youth are Dick jokes, Fraser.
34:29
You're. The Dominators.
34:33
Did someone say the Dominators? Okay, what's here in here
34:41
talking about us? Patrick Trouten is slipping A
34:45
twixt between cup and lip. Isn't that a lot from Darwin and
34:49
Bannerman? Yeah, the Doctor misquotes it in
34:52
Delta and the Bannerman when he's still in his misquoting
34:55
quotes. But then, sigh, quotes have
34:58
never been known for their rationality, have they?
35:01
True. What's the use of a good
35:03
quotation if you can't change it?
35:07
It's another thing that I think Michael Ferguson does so well.
35:10
It's just close-ups of people's yes faces, isn't it?
35:14
Oh, do you remember in Ambassador's death when he does
35:16
so it's like half second close up from one person to another.
35:20
Yeah, and that's cut very much like the Ice Warrior demises,
35:23
isn't it? Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
35:26
And they're fast and. But I think it's trusting your
35:29
actors as well, because some there's too many extreme
35:34
close-ups in like PM Moffett stories and things like this.
35:39
You and Moffett. No, no, no.
35:42
But like okay, I had this discussion with Rob Valentine on
35:44
Sharder where he says he doesn't really think about classic Who
35:48
directors, but I think there is a distinct sort of hierarchy of
35:52
talent. Absolutely.
35:53
There absolutely is. There is.
35:56
There's a lot of point and shoot and just get it in the can and
36:00
that will do directors, but there's also some who just go
36:05
above the ambition of the story they've got.
36:09
And that's fine. The point and shoot's fine
36:11
because it's being done on the fly.
36:12
It's being done cheap and in a hurry.
36:14
And I'm not going to criticize that, but the ones that come in
36:17
and say, you know, I'm going to do a bit better than this.
36:19
It's it's when you get the balance right.
36:23
You know when you have enough sort of point and shoot as that
36:26
you can leave them to carry on and you know do a show on a
36:30
budget and then you can kind of you know give you your more.
36:39
Flamboyant directors, a bit more bit more tame and a bit more
36:42
space to do what they want to do.
36:44
That's when you get you get the good results really.
36:47
The ones I feel sorry for. The ones we don't talk about
36:49
because they only did one story. You know, the one shot us like
36:53
fellow who did the awakening. Oh, Michael Owen Morris and
36:57
that's. Really.
36:57
What it? Yeah, and Tony Virgo for The
37:00
King's Demons and. Of course, your favorite of
37:04
mine, Kenny McBain. Oh, absolutely.
37:07
Who went on to have a stellar career.
37:09
Marvel still thinks doesn't exist.
37:13
He created an inspector. Fucking Morse.
37:15
I know I was. Talking to the other day and.
37:18
Grange Hill. Some of the great years of
37:20
Grange Hill, Yes, it did do. Oh no.
37:25
But yeah, I mean. Anyone else I wanted to show,
37:27
Sir. Michael Hart, who does the Space
37:31
Pirates. No one ever mentions Michael
37:34
Hart. I only remember him because it's
37:36
the same name as my dad. So.
37:38
He does that wonderful moment where Madeline is stiggery,
37:41
looks straight at the camera and goes I'm evil.
37:47
We spent so much at the beginning of this story talking
37:50
about this scene. Now it's actually happening.
37:52
We're not talking about this scene.
37:56
Oh, Jamie, to the rescue. Look at him go.
38:01
Oh my God. So the Doctor uses the Ice
38:03
Warrior gun to kill God. He's ambitious bastard, isn't
38:08
he? Don't know what everyone's in
38:11
their own big satire. You imagine being being like a 5
38:16
year old watching this. It's been the most exciting
38:18
thing ever. Oh, well done, Jamie.
38:24
Explosions everywhere. Again it's it's down to the cast
38:28
isn't it? Because they're all just kind of
38:30
like leaping over the sets that leaping over the consoles and
38:34
you know what I see Jamie and the Doctor do it there.
38:38
You know Wendy Padre was jumping down you know when she was
38:42
getting out of her cliffhanger before.
38:43
It's it's it's so much with the with the cast in these you know
38:48
we me and Joe met Fraser Hines over the weekend you know he was
38:52
talking in the Q&A about the. You know the way that these
38:58
stories were shot how they would rehearse Monday, Tuesday,
39:02
Wednesday, and like the village hall, the would you know have
39:07
the rehearsals in the ones it was on the 1st and the Friday
39:10
before then. You know going ahead and
39:12
shooting it in you know pretty much live fashion.
39:15
And you know he was made the point that that time in
39:18
rehearsal allowed them to build up that that chemistry not just
39:24
between them as the. The actors but also the the
39:28
support and cast as well. So you would have you know the
39:31
support and cast coming in and you know the BC and all you're
39:34
going to play that scene like this Okay.
39:36
Awesome. Well I'm going to play it this,
39:37
I'll play it this way then and I'll do this differently and you
39:40
know that's how the work stuff out and you know that really
39:42
shows with this you know these these first series you know
39:47
these first seasons you can really tell that with.
39:52
You know the the cast. And more so than anyone I think
39:55
it's the trout near where that that really flies, you know,
39:58
with and the way that Fraser Hines and Patrick Trout and
40:02
whoever else they're working with really just gel and use
40:05
that time in rehearsal of, you know, get everything worked out
40:09
and get. Good.
40:11
Are you saying thank goodness they did have that time to
40:14
develop chemistry? I don't think it would be dreary
40:21
as much. I think you know they would
40:22
still come up with something. But you know like you say when
40:25
you get to this point in the productions history where things
40:28
aren't as smooth and successful behind the scenes and you are
40:32
relying so much on you know what your cast are doing, you know
40:37
because they are basically carrying the show now and I've
40:41
said that before, I'll see it again.
40:42
You know they're carrying the show and the carry into through
40:45
this story, the carry. Space pirates and then into the
40:49
war games, you know, before they're just wiped out and
40:53
they're done and they're exhausted and they can't carry
40:55
it anymore. And thankfully we've got, you
40:59
know, 10 sticks in the background to save us all next
41:03
thing. But you know, without that, you
41:06
know, time for that bond and in that chemistry then you know it
41:10
would just pick her out, I think.
41:13
We know that Trout wanted out. As early as enemy of the world,
41:19
which is really interesting because after we left the show
41:22
and you know he's looking for work left right and center, he's
41:24
scrapping at every opportunity to come back with three doctors
41:27
to five doctors to two doctors. But he wanted out because of the
41:30
schedule was torturous and he was tired of and maybe there is
41:35
a bit of and I even I would say this and this, there's a bit of
41:39
in his performance like best of in the seats of death, the
41:42
clowning around, the goofing around.
41:45
And then he's essentially written out of tons of the space
41:49
pirates, almost the entirety of the last episode before sort of
41:55
hitting us with that rousing climax in the War games where he
41:59
gets absolutely Tonsto. And fact, fuck, we didn't lose
42:02
that one. Well boys, we have managed to
42:08
talk through six episodes of the Seas of Death You.
42:11
Have it's pouring with rain. It's probably right here as
42:14
well. No C pod trouble here.
42:17
Nope. It's spitting down a little bit
42:20
up here. Well, I have a foamy bath later.
42:23
You know, let's do 3 apiece. Okay.
42:28
Start today with Cy, Cy, Fraser, me.
42:34
Right. I am going to go in with the big
42:36
one and I'm going to say Dudley Simpson Score is one of his all
42:40
time classics and I absolutely love it and it's so very late
42:46
60s with all the flanging and the phasing on things and it's
42:52
just beautiful and. What does that mean?
42:56
It's it's a technical term, which means it just goes now on
43:01
sounds and things like that. So it's just beautiful and I
43:05
think that really helps the story hugely.
43:08
It's very, very dynamic and fun. How exactly does one flange so?
43:18
Glad you are glad you asked him that question.
43:24
Right. If he's going to pick a big one,
43:26
I'm going to pick a big one as well.
43:27
I'm going to see Michael Ferguson's direction.
43:30
Which is again yet Stella isn't it really a Stella which we've
43:34
talked about so much with you know barely not mentioned his
43:40
name at all. I've he's you know just the
43:43
every aspect sort of the close at work the the ways out of
43:47
depth and perspective to the sets and you know the the use of
43:52
shadow and silhouette and everything.
43:54
It's just you know he's a cut above you know we've talked
43:57
about that how you want me briefly.
44:00
But you know he is he is top of the top of the pile and I think
44:03
and it's it's no surprise that haven't done for Doctor Who
44:08
stories. He did go on a bigger and better
44:09
things because he's not going to let the park here.
44:14
I am going to say, is it Louise Paijo?
44:16
Is that how you say her name? I think so.
44:18
Louise Paijo as Miss Kelly, who is doing it for the ladies in
44:23
this, who is just remarkably competent at everything that she
44:27
does. And is very impressive for it.
44:30
She ain't a screamer. She can dice with the Ice
44:33
Warriors, She can twiddle A-Team at Control Army and she, you
44:37
know, condemns fusion. She's a terrific character and I
44:41
we haven't talked about her a lot in this and I think it's
44:43
just because she's just really good and saying, well, that
44:46
character's really good. It's probably a bit boring.
44:49
And how good is it to have? Actually really competent people
44:53
in command for a change in the transit era, We don't get that
44:57
very often. We get people who are promoted
44:59
above their head limits more often than not.
45:03
And she's a bit sort of upper class and a Snooty as well.
45:05
And she looks fabulous in a leather cat suit as well, so
45:08
she's just Kelly rocks. OK, And to follow that up, I'm
45:13
going to go with Terry Scully as Fuchum.
45:16
Who is? Beautifully written and
45:19
wonderfully played and one of the most undersung performances
45:22
in the whole of Doctor Who and deserves far more credit and
45:26
love than he ever gets. He's never singled out as one of
45:32
the the great performances in classic Doctor Who, and I think
45:35
he actually should be. I think hopefully we've
45:38
redressed the balance a bit in Terry Scully's favor because he
45:41
has done fantastic work and the scripting from turn sticks
45:45
really. Really helps that character, I
45:48
think, and makes it something more than it.
45:52
It sort of the writing and the playing together create
45:56
something that is really sophisticated for this era of
45:59
Doctor Who that we don't see very often outside of a David
46:03
Whittaker script. I'm going to pick the comedy
46:11
chase scene in episode 3. Is it?
46:15
Yeah. Yeah, and Trump doing the
46:18
scooby-doo chase. It's just, you know, it's a
46:20
fantastic, you know, a little bit of pod in there, but it's
46:25
really entertaining. It's really fun, you know, it's
46:28
so well executed and edited and put together and especially
46:33
given the the confines of the studio and the camera set up in
46:36
the heart, I think that's a, you know, a fantastic moment in the
46:39
history of Doctor Who. I can't believe you didn't go
46:42
for this one, Fraser. I am going to go for that comedy
46:45
subgenre of Doctor Who. The Let's all pretend we're
46:49
facing G Force, which is probably the funniest moment of
46:54
the entire story, and you can absolutely trust.
47:01
And I'm surprised no one's gone for this this trio yet.
47:03
Trout and Heinz and Padbury to pull it off.
47:08
And they do so. I'm going to go for the and I
47:12
can't believe you to haven't chosen this one.
47:14
The phone in the phone because it is Stella it's so much fun
47:21
and the Oh my words and the faces he is pulling and the
47:26
slipping over and Wendy Padbury getting the giggles.
47:29
I just think it's it's a case of the cost of having fun but
47:33
they're taking the audience with them as well and that's the joy
47:37
of it that it's not. Hugely out of character.
47:41
It's not a moment that pulls you out of the story.
47:44
It comes absolutely organically from where where they are.
47:49
And Transon is so good as, as we've said throughout, Tranton
47:53
is so good at those moments. It's wonderful and the last gasp
47:58
of his comedy performance, I think, really.
48:03
Next up then, I'm going to pick the costume design.
48:07
Oh boy. So, so many costumes.
48:13
I mean, you've got, you've got the humans in team at control,
48:17
you know, rocking up the work with a briefcase and your
48:19
underpants on. Top of.
48:23
I'm going to work later. I'll try it out.
48:27
You know you've got the security.
48:28
Guards who turn up with those signal elements.
48:32
With security. Just in case you're not sure
48:36
from the machine. Which they can then stick.
48:39
You know, a respirator underneath, you've got the sort
48:43
of slimmed down design of Ice Warriors.
48:45
You've got Slaw is sort of the Ice Lord who's now all sleek and
48:51
more maneuverable and you know, but still has quite expressive
48:56
and really. Reptilian looking face and of
49:02
course the The Grand Marshall with his disco helmet.
49:05
Is bling. Disco, disco, disco part.
49:10
I am going Oh my God, if we're doing 3 apiece, this is the last
49:14
one, and no one has mentioned that they're regulars.
49:21
Well, we have actually mentioned the breakulas.
49:23
No, specifically. And not specifically, no.
49:26
I'm going to say I think we went into this thinking it was a fun
49:31
romp or an average romp as far as Right is concerned.
49:36
And actually I think there's been far more talking points,
49:41
whether that's deliberately or inadvertently.
49:44
You've got the sort of old versus new technology at the
49:47
beginning, which is really quite interesting.
49:49
You've got Fusions moral dilemma in the middle, which is very
49:52
interesting. And then you've got the should
49:54
the doctor be a comedy murderer towards the end, which is super
49:59
interesting to talk about. So I think, I'm not sure all of
50:02
this is deliberately there in the script, but I think there's
50:06
a lot of talking points and sort of points of interest.
50:10
In the seats of death, Far more than I thought there would be
50:13
going into this. So that's my biggest take away
50:16
from this. So that's my #3.
50:19
Yeah, and we didn't even mention Alan Bennion being brilliant or?
50:23
Well, my next one then is. What?
50:28
Tom Sticks, you know, yeah, we can't.
50:32
Let 10 sticks off the hook. You know, it's like you say he's
50:35
coming. He's done a bit of a repair job
50:36
on this for whatever reason because things have changed.
50:39
No, Jamie's going, he's not going.
50:41
He needs to stay in and so on and so forth.
50:43
But it's just, you know, another great example of.
50:47
Of. Of 10 sticks doing what 10
50:49
sticks does. I've said this you know,
50:52
ambassadors, you know, you put his back against the wall and
50:54
that's where you get the best and.
50:57
He's good in a crisis. Yeah, you know, you, you, you.
51:01
You put them under pressure. It's, you know, you either, you
51:04
know, say, you know, you've got 10 episodes, you've got 7
51:06
episodes, you need to take over this or you go, there's your
51:09
shopping list, you've got that. You were saying sorry about the
51:12
five doctors. You know, you've got five
51:13
doctors. No, you haven't.
51:14
You've got three. No, you haven't.
51:15
You've got 4. You can have.
51:16
No, you can't have these companions you can have.
51:18
And you know, you put them under pressure and you get the best
51:21
results out of them. And it is really just, you know,
51:24
fascinating to see him learning his trade at this point.
51:27
You know, we know where he's going to go from here.
51:29
We know that he's. He's going to step it up another
51:31
notch in, you know, the next few years.
51:35
But all those elements that sort of, you know, arguing and, you
51:40
know, count our work, it's it's coming from him and it's we're
51:43
all the better for it. But it's not one more from you.
51:47
Okay. Well, I will say Alan Benny and
51:49
then who? Who is really great as as slaw
51:53
and creates a new kind of Ice Warrior and one that he will
51:58
revisit. Another two times and make each
52:02
character completely different. And Slaw is great, as Fred said,
52:08
he's sleek but he moves like a reptile and even though he's got
52:13
limited movement of his arms because his shoulders are stuck
52:16
in the costume, he still manages to look really cool actually as
52:22
as the ice Lord. And it's a great thing in the
52:25
first episode where you. Where the viewers may not have
52:28
been sure it is the Ice Warriors, because you only see
52:30
parts of him and because his body is different to the Ice
52:33
Warriors, it's it's sort of fooling them.
52:37
I think he's absolutely superb and plays, plays a really good
52:40
feeling here. And well, I'll finish it by
52:45
saying our three regulars who, whether they are propping up the
52:49
series at this point or not, remain.
52:54
Three of the best regulars in the entire run of Doctor Who.
52:58
Their chemistry is absolutely palpable.
53:01
They clearly love working together.
53:04
And you know how teristics describes Pete Davidson with a
53:08
young, old face. Yes.
53:10
Well, I feel like sort of the old of Fraser, Sy and myself is
53:16
Clegg, Compo and. Oh God, what's your phone?
53:19
Called Foggy. Foggy from Last Summer Wine.
53:22
But the young version of Fraser, Sy and I is the 2nd Doctor,
53:27
Jamie and Zoe. And depending on what day you
53:29
catch us on, we. Could be any of those.
53:32
We're young kids. They're A-Team you just want to
53:37
travel with, aren't they? Because they're just having so
53:39
much fun and although they're in mortal danger all the time, you
53:44
feel safe with them because they're I.
53:48
I just love watching them and I love the dynamic between them
53:51
and I think it is the Troughton era dynamic that works best of
53:59
all because you've got 2 smart people.
54:01
One who is smart but he's not educated.
54:05
One who is book smart but not worldly wise and the Doctor Who
54:10
is everything and they complement each other
54:13
beautifully and they play off each other beautifully and.
54:17
You see Fraser Hines and Wendy Padbury sparring with each other
54:20
to this day, and that is still that warmth and that connection
54:24
that they made all those years ago.
54:27
I do wonder, you know, if that's why.
54:30
You know, Fraser, you said that you prefer the ice for is.
54:33
I think that's why I prefer this one.
54:35
It's because it is this dynamic as Victoria's a bit useless in.
54:40
The ice for you? I'm stuck in the ice for.
54:45
You I've said about things being a bit racist in her line when
54:48
she goes, Oh no, not Africa, like it's the worst place in the
54:53
world she could be envisaged anyway.
54:56
But no, I think you're right. I think these three carry lots
55:00
of scenes that could be definitely dull in the wrong
55:03
hands. They've got a lot of exposition,
55:05
and those scenes on the rocket could be.
55:08
Could be dreadful, but they are so good together.
55:13
Cutting out his head for a second, I do think that Fuchsium
55:17
is the only sophisticated character in this story on the
55:23
same level as pretty much every character is sophisticated in
55:26
the Ice Warriors, so I I refuse to write that one off.
55:30
I think there's a lot of interest in stuff happening
55:32
there as well. And it doesn't have to be an
55:34
evil or you can like no. That's right.
55:38
That's right. Although we're Doctor Who fans,
55:40
we tend. To So yeah, one has to be worse
55:42
than the other. Obvious.
55:43
Lists are a thing, aren't they? You know, franking things is a
55:46
thing. Well, let's see what the next
55:48
Doctor Who Magazine poll comes up with.
55:51
Well, I gave Seats of Death at 10.
55:54
So I give it. Did I?
55:55
Give it an 8, Gorgeous. Well, it probably doesn't
55:58
deserve a 10, but I think. It's just you, Fraser.
56:00
I can't. Remember, it's probably a six or
56:02
seven. That's still pretty good.
56:06
If I, if I hummed the words pub me, pub me, pub me, what would
56:13
that conjure up in the pair of you?
56:17
The Abominable Snowman. Oh fuck, is that the from that,
56:24
Fraser, why don't you tell everybody where we're heading
56:26
next? Britannica Spears, thanks.
56:32
Well, you 2 behave. Oh.
56:37
I'll tell you what to the. Theater, aren't we?
56:39
We'll have to assure together. Yes.
56:41
Lupton's gone down to the cellar, cellar, cellar, cellar,
56:44
cellar. Get away from that, mandala.
56:51
My brain will expand until until.
56:57
No, my husband, please don't go. I'll say, oh, Joe's pretty sat
57:05
in the freezer. We are going to be watching
57:08
Planet of the Spiders, another six parter with.
57:13
Us. Well, I'll trust you guys.
57:16
You know, you can keep talking for this amount of time.
57:20
I really like this. I don't know where you 2 fall
57:25
and I know obviously we'll talk about it next time, but just
57:27
very quickly. It's one I've grown to love and
57:30
appreciate over the years. It is the Pert we greatest Hits.
57:37
It's the pert, weest, pert we that you'll ever see.