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119. The Kerry Babies · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

0:00
Speaker 1: You're listening to you an Airwave Media podcast. Hello delicious friends,
0:19
Speaker 1: and welcome to Who Died What Now? The history podcast
0:22
Speaker 1: That's not your history class with me your host Katie Charlewood,
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Speaker 1: History Harlot and reader All Books. Yes, my voice is
0:32
Speaker 1: still gone quite a bit. It hasn't quite returned back
0:36
Speaker 1: after seeing Esmey last week. So we went for dinner
0:40
Speaker 1: after the book launch when we did a little in
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Speaker 1: conversation with myself and es May and doctor Susan James,
0:48
Speaker 1: and we had a really good chat. It was really fun.
0:50
Speaker 1: It was wonderful for everybody who showed up and everyone
0:53
Speaker 1: who did you up and photos and hugs and everything.
0:56
Speaker 1: You're amazing. And shouted out to my friend Mark who
1:00
Speaker 1: buckled my shoes for me. For those of you who
1:02
Speaker 1: don't know, I've got scoliosis and my back spasms quite
1:06
Speaker 1: a lot, so I have trouble sometimes like bending and
1:10
Speaker 1: doing certain movements. But Mark sorted my shoes for me
1:15
Speaker 1: so that I could match es May's book. So I
1:18
Speaker 1: had a little blue outfit with pink shoes that match
1:20
Speaker 1: the color of her international book cover. But yeah, that
1:25
Speaker 1: was that was that. So we were out and we
1:29
Speaker 1: were having dinner, and then it got really loud and
1:31
Speaker 1: I basically talked too much. As doctor Susan James said,
1:37
Speaker 1: I'm the only person she's met that can talk more
1:39
Speaker 1: than esme, which I feel, I feel is a sense
1:44
Speaker 1: of achievement. Actually, but yeah, I talked to myself horse.
1:48
Speaker 1: But I'm finally like up to par where a point
1:51
Speaker 1: I can physically record again instead of making some weird
1:55
Speaker 1: husky noises, which I'm sure some of you would be into,
1:57
Speaker 1: but I feel is not entirely concucive to it. Storay podcast.
2:01
Speaker 1: But I'm really excited because my analytics started working again
2:05
Speaker 1: and I charted in Peru, Peru? Who is listening to
2:12
Speaker 1: me in Peru? Paddington, Baya? What is this in Panama? Like,
2:17
Speaker 1: I'm getting all the p's. This is fabulous. I love
2:20
Speaker 1: that people are listening to me. This is amazing. But
2:22
Speaker 1: anyone who still hasn't read the interviewed five stars, you
2:24
Speaker 1: could totally still do that and pass me up the
2:27
Speaker 1: charts and make me so happy because listen to my voice,
2:30
Speaker 1: it's so sad. Yeah, I've got a few things I
2:34
Speaker 1: want to touch on before we get into the harrowing
2:37
Speaker 1: story of today. So I am back on tour. Things
2:41
Speaker 1: are going, going going, So I am in the Comedy
2:44
Speaker 1: Cavern in Cork on the fourteenth of September. I've got
2:49
Speaker 1: that going on. There's still tickets available if you want
2:51
Speaker 1: to come see me, kettle tickets because I'm talking about
2:54
Speaker 1: some funky ladies. I'm very excited about this one. When
2:58
Speaker 1: I discovered this, let me tell you, I was like,
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Speaker 1: I've been waiting to find something like Cork based that
3:04
Speaker 1: was juicy, and I finally have it. You have no idea.
3:08
Speaker 1: How happy I am to have something like this, Like
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Speaker 1: no idea. So we have that now. I have extended
3:17
Speaker 1: the early bird sale for the Belfast tickets. Now. The
3:22
Speaker 1: reason I did that is because I accidentally shut off
3:25
Speaker 1: ticket sales, all ticket sales on the thirty first of August,
3:29
Speaker 1: so they have been unavailable to purchase for like several
3:33
Speaker 1: days and I felt that's a bit shitty, and so
3:37
Speaker 1: I thought, you know what, I'm just going to sort
3:39
Speaker 1: this out and get you get you an extra week.
3:41
Speaker 1: So as of day recording our day of release of Tuesday,
3:45
Speaker 1: by Friday this week, they're still going to have some
3:48
Speaker 1: tickets there. So payday get you tickets Early bird catches
3:52
Speaker 1: the discount. I know a few of the Edinburgh and
3:56
Speaker 1: Newcastle's tickets were snatched up this week. There seems to
3:59
Speaker 1: be a greater Russian those. If you planning to get those,
4:02
Speaker 1: probably want to get a wee bit quicker now because
4:04
Speaker 1: they are starting to like go this week especially. I
4:08
Speaker 1: don't know why. Now, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking,
4:11
Speaker 1: what your jibbel jabba in fact me, in fact you
4:14
Speaker 1: I will. But first we've got to get our source on.
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Speaker 1: Our sources are A Woman to Blame. The Kerry Baby's
4:25
Speaker 1: Case by Neil McCafferty, Truth, Power and Lies, Irish Society
4:32
Speaker 1: and the Case of the Kerry Babies by Tom Inglis.
4:35
Speaker 1: Lost Innocence, The Inside Story of the Kerry Baby's Mystery
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Speaker 1: by Barrio'hallerin Kerry Babies An Unsolved Murder thirty four years
4:43
Speaker 1: after Ireland put womanhood on trial by Shineido, Carol Leskogafala,
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Speaker 1: Juanne Hayes, I was a muncher if we ass Lana
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Speaker 1: Harry E. Churisk The Changing Face of Catholic Ireland, Conservatism
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Speaker 1: and Liberalism and The Ann Loved and Kerry Baby's Scandal
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Speaker 1: by Moira J. Maguire, the Report into the Tribunal of
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Speaker 1: Inquiry into the Kerry Babies Case of October nineteen eighty five,
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Speaker 1: and finally my story by Joan Hayes. I you will
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Speaker 1: sit incomfortably good. Then let's begin now before we delve
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Speaker 1: any deeper, and before I get into any of this.
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Speaker 1: If you've read the title, the description, and you've heard
5:31
Speaker 1: all these sources, you know you're going to be in
5:34
Speaker 1: for a tough ride. This is not going to be
5:36
Speaker 1: an easy episode for anyone to listen to. Content warning.
5:41
Speaker 1: This is going to discuss in fantaside, and it's going
5:45
Speaker 1: to have descriptions of violence and abuse and kid avils. Now,
5:53
Speaker 1: if this is something that upsets you or is going
5:58
Speaker 1: to trigger you, this is the time to just stop listening.
6:01
Speaker 1: Just stop listening. You can scroll it all the way
6:04
Speaker 1: down to mute and let the rest play if you like,
6:07
Speaker 1: if you really feel the need for that engagement, or
6:10
Speaker 1: you can just you can just turn this off. I
6:12
Speaker 1: won't be offended. I understand if this is not an
6:14
Speaker 1: episode that a lot of people can listen to, But
6:18
Speaker 1: like the magazine Laundries, this is a topic which I
6:21
Speaker 1: think has to be shared, especially considering I've lived in
6:26
Speaker 1: Ireland since I was eight years old, this is my home,
6:30
Speaker 1: this is my life, and not acknowledging that this was
6:36
Speaker 1: the Republic of shame, you know, for so many years,
6:41
Speaker 1: it would be disingenuous and it would be pretty shitty
6:46
Speaker 1: of me generally, because of how much I call out
6:49
Speaker 1: other countries for their past and do not do it
6:51
Speaker 1: to my own is bloody ridiculous. And the uncomfortable truth
6:56
Speaker 1: is just that it's uncomfortable. It's unsettling, and I really
7:03
Speaker 1: don't want people to be distraught or have their mental
7:07
Speaker 1: health affected by this episode. And so get out now,
7:12
Speaker 1: exit stage lift, get out of here, because now I'm
7:17
Speaker 1: going to tell you all about the carry babies scandal.
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Speaker 1: So I have been humming and hot about how do
7:25
Speaker 1: you start talking about this specific point in history, like
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Speaker 1: how do I broach this topic? And I was struggling.
7:33
Speaker 1: I was struggling, like how do you how do you
7:35
Speaker 1: intro this? You know? And I thought, you know what,
7:38
Speaker 1: I'll listen to the beginnings of a few other podcasts.
7:41
Speaker 1: I'll see if I can, if I can get, you know,
7:44
Speaker 1: at least some kind of inspiration as to where to start.
7:48
Speaker 1: And so many of them started with things like in
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Speaker 1: lands unscathed by urban obsession, the rugged countryside of the world,
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Speaker 1: Atlantic Way, Scenic Coastal Kerry, an area of outdoor pursuits
8:05
Speaker 1: and traditional living, had the bah like it was it
8:10
Speaker 1: was like setting up a fairy tale or a travel show.
8:14
Speaker 1: It was such a weird way to intro it. And
8:18
Speaker 1: I've I heard so many and I don't know if
8:20
Speaker 1: it was supposed to be like a juxtaposition, like the
8:23
Speaker 1: sort of softness and the idyllic concept of the area
8:28
Speaker 1: and the land and the society compared to how like
8:32
Speaker 1: everyone was treated or not everyone, how women were treated
8:37
Speaker 1: in this scenario, or if they were just trying to
8:40
Speaker 1: ease people in gently. And I decided I'm not going
8:43
Speaker 1: to ease anyone and gently because there's no easy way
8:47
Speaker 1: to talk about dead babies. And so that is where
8:51
Speaker 1: our story starts. On the fourteenth of April nineteen eighty four,
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Speaker 1: Jack Griffin, a local farmer in car Savinian County, Kerry,
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Speaker 1: had gone for his evening run because shockingly enough, farmers
9:05
Speaker 1: are allowed to have hobbies, so this is part of
9:08
Speaker 1: his typical routine. He goes for his evening run. It's
9:12
Speaker 1: eight o'clock at night. He's going for a leg across
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Speaker 1: the white strand, and as he's running, he sees something
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Speaker 1: on the rocks. He's not quite sure what it is,
9:24
Speaker 1: and as he gets closer his heart starts to race.
9:30
Speaker 1: And as he gets there, he sees something. It's sort
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Speaker 1: of pink, it has dark hair, and he's thinking to himself,
9:37
Speaker 1: please be a doll. And he's scared because he doesn't
9:42
Speaker 1: want to admit what it is, and so instead of
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Speaker 1: approaching well what he thinks is a doll, he turns
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Speaker 1: on his heels and runs back to find someone else,
9:55
Speaker 1: and he finds his eighteen year old nephew, Brendan O'Shea
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Speaker 1: that is actually his wife's nephew, but semantics, Jack leads
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Speaker 1: Brendan back across the strand over to the rocks and
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Speaker 1: blesses himself as his nephew investigates this, eighteen year old
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Speaker 1: boy goes over to the bundle on the rocks and
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Speaker 1: flips it over and discovers that it is not, in
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Speaker 1: fact a doll, but is the body of a newborn baby,
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Speaker 1: a newborn that had clearly not died of natural causes.
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Speaker 1: So the boy's head straight up to the barracks, they
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Speaker 1: get the guards and they bring them down to the shore.
10:40
Speaker 1: It is April in Ireland, so it is dark at
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Speaker 1: this point. So they come back with torches and flashlights
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Speaker 1: and they make their way back to where they had
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Speaker 1: discovered the infant. And so the guards are there with
10:54
Speaker 1: the local undertaker, Tom Kernan, and a priest. Now, if
10:59
Speaker 1: you're not entirely familiar with how Catholic Ireland was, the
11:05
Speaker 1: priest was there to baptize the baby. Now you might
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Speaker 1: be thinking it is quite peculiar to baptize a corpse.
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Speaker 1: You're not wrong, but again this is very very Catholic Ireland,
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Speaker 1: and so the priest was there to ensure that the
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Speaker 1: soul of the infant got to heaven. Because unbaptized babies,
11:28
Speaker 1: when they go to purgatory, it's the same sort of
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Speaker 1: level of say, i want to call it a level
11:35
Speaker 1: of hell, but it's the same area where people who
11:38
Speaker 1: end their own lives go and it's it's not a
11:42
Speaker 1: nice place to be. And so in their eyes, they
11:48
Speaker 1: were doing this to ensure that this child had peace
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Speaker 1: in the afterlife, if not it's actual life. So the undertaker,
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Speaker 1: Tom Kernan, he you know, names the baby John because
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Speaker 1: it's a baby boy, and he pays for the baby's
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Speaker 1: funeral and also for its memorial. So John has this memorial.
12:15
Speaker 1: It's like a mock marble. It's made of plastic. It's
12:19
Speaker 1: this little cross and it has an inscription which has
12:24
Speaker 1: changed over the years. Now, Originally the epitaph said I
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Speaker 1: am the Kerry baby baptized on fourteenth or the fourth,
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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, named John I forgive, which is awey
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Speaker 1: bit harrowing. And there there is many ways in which
12:42
Speaker 1: that can be taken, most of them not good and
12:46
Speaker 1: a lot of them accusatory. Now the grave itself gets
12:52
Speaker 1: vandalized over the years as as a political statement, and
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Speaker 1: every time it's vandalized, Tom Karnane has paid for it
13:02
Speaker 1: to be fixed, every single time. So clearly this affected him.
13:07
Speaker 1: I mean it would once you hear about this, how
13:10
Speaker 1: could it not. And eventually the epitaph has changed to
13:15
Speaker 1: in loving memory of me the Kerry Baby, which is
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Speaker 1: what it is. But Tom Karnane had covered this. So
13:25
Speaker 1: between the baptism and the internment of baby John, a
13:32
Speaker 1: pathologist that takes a look at the baby. Now this
13:37
Speaker 1: is not a time in Ireland, but the eighties that
13:42
Speaker 1: therapy or talking about your feelings in any way was promoted.
13:48
Speaker 1: You were supposed to like it's Catholic guilt. So what
13:51
Speaker 1: you do is you take all of your feelings and
13:54
Speaker 1: you stuff them down really really hard, and then you
13:57
Speaker 1: do three Hail Mary's in an now father and for
14:00
Speaker 1: the best. Like you don't share feelings, you don't have trauma,
14:04
Speaker 1: you don't have PDSDA, like you suffering brings you closer
14:09
Speaker 1: to Jesus. Like that's the whole shebat. So what these
14:13
Speaker 1: people saw that day, I'm sure stayed with them for
14:17
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. Because on that beach in caahrsevene,
14:24
Speaker 1: this body was massacred. Although it was quite clear what
14:30
Speaker 1: cause of death was. The pathologists performed an autopsy on
14:34
Speaker 1: baby John. If you're not good with violence and grievous
14:40
Speaker 1: bodily harm, I'm going to suggest you skip for the
14:43
Speaker 1: next about ninety seconds. So upon autopsy, the pathologists discovered
14:50
Speaker 1: that the newborn infant had twenty seven stab wounds, twenty
14:55
Speaker 1: seven three of which were to the chest and heart.
15:01
Speaker 1: The newborn also had severe injuries to the head, neck,
15:05
Speaker 1: and had a fractured spine. Now this is overkilled by
15:09
Speaker 1: anybody's standard, but twenty seven stab wounds on a newborn,
15:14
Speaker 1: on someone so small, that is either an act of
15:18
Speaker 1: rage or desperation. According to the pathologist, baby John had
15:24
Speaker 1: survived approximately forty eight hours before his life was ended,
15:30
Speaker 1: and it was believed that baby John had passed away
15:33
Speaker 1: between three and five days before his body was discovered
15:37
Speaker 1: two days old. Twenty seven stab wounds and other violent
15:42
Speaker 1: injuries like that is either someone destroying a life in pure,
15:49
Speaker 1: unadulterated rage or in sheer desperation. And again, I'm not
15:54
Speaker 1: condoning infanticide. I'm not trying to justify it, but I
15:59
Speaker 1: can't help but to think posting ittle depression, like my
16:02
Speaker 1: brain just jumps there. And I suffered from postpartum myself
16:06
Speaker 1: with all my kids, which is one of the reasons
16:08
Speaker 1: why I'm never having any more. But I had the
16:10
Speaker 1: kind that made me want to run into traffic and
16:13
Speaker 1: jump off of a bridge, not throw my child off
16:16
Speaker 1: a bridge, luckily, but I don't need to put me
16:20
Speaker 1: or my kids through that again, which is why I'm
16:22
Speaker 1: not I'm not crossing that bridge again. I am bunning
16:25
Speaker 1: that bridge when I come to it, or if I
16:27
Speaker 1: come to it. Jeez, I do everything in my power
16:29
Speaker 1: to make sure I can't come to it. Also, did
16:32
Speaker 1: you know that tubol ligation in Ireland is only fifteen
16:34
Speaker 1: hundred euro Like I have half of mine to just
16:37
Speaker 1: like tip my PayPal guys, let's get this done for me,
16:40
Speaker 1: because let's not cause anyone's stress in the world. But
16:43
Speaker 1: there isn't actual like baby blues, things that affects everybody.
16:47
Speaker 1: Every person knows ever given birth. It happens because of
16:51
Speaker 1: a hormone drop that happens on like day three, So
16:54
Speaker 1: day three the hormones drop, and it just it just
16:58
Speaker 1: causes extreme emotional turmoil, You get upset, the job of
17:02
Speaker 1: a hat. It really just enlarges the emotions and my
17:09
Speaker 1: my thought process, Like if it was this kind of scenario,
17:13
Speaker 1: like I can understand the factors that led to it. Again,
17:19
Speaker 1: not justifying or condoning or accepting, but I can see
17:27
Speaker 1: why that would happen, Like especially when you see how young,
17:33
Speaker 1: oh you, how unwed mothers were treated in this society,
17:38
Speaker 1: and how heavy the cage of shame was upon them,
17:44
Speaker 1: you can understand. You see, when it comes to baby
17:48
Speaker 1: John the GUARDI believed that whoever inflicted that violence upon
17:53
Speaker 1: him was Baby John's mother. Their automatic assumption was this
17:59
Speaker 1: had to be an evil woman who caused such harm
18:04
Speaker 1: upon a baby because she already had a child at
18:08
Speaker 1: of wedlock, so clearly she had no morals or ethics
18:12
Speaker 1: like that. That's their point of view, which we're going
18:16
Speaker 1: to discuss at the end of this episode, because I
18:19
Speaker 1: have a plot twist. So because it had been agreed
18:23
Speaker 1: that baby John had been alive for forty hours, because
18:26
Speaker 1: he'd been alive along. Now because it was agreed upon
18:29
Speaker 1: that Baby John was alive for two days, this was
18:33
Speaker 1: now treated as a murder inquiry. It was a murder investigation,
18:39
Speaker 1: and the local guardie they hadn't dealt with something like this,
18:44
Speaker 1: They hadn't dealt with violent baby murder. Unsurprisingly, when a
18:49
Speaker 1: story likes this hits the news, it just blows up.
18:54
Speaker 1: And there's this small police force that doesn't really know
18:57
Speaker 1: how to handle this. So naturally the big guns are
19:00
Speaker 1: called in and so they bring in and I shit
19:04
Speaker 1: you not, the murder squad from Dublin, all six members
19:09
Speaker 1: of the murder squad. They've got to keep a few
19:11
Speaker 1: people back in Dublin to deal with you know, the
19:13
Speaker 1: Dublin murders and who was heading the six man murder squad,
19:19
Speaker 1: but kerry Man himself, Superintendent John Courtney. He brings with
19:24
Speaker 1: him two specialist interrogators, Detective Sergeant Jerry O'Carroll and Detective GUARDA. PJ. Brown,
19:32
Speaker 1: and then three other fellows who I'm sure were very important,
19:35
Speaker 1: but I did not find their names. Now, the first
19:37
Speaker 1: thing they did was contact Curra. What's Cura? Well, I'm
19:42
Speaker 1: glad you asked, because I will tell you. Curra was
19:46
Speaker 1: an organization which was set up in nineteen eighty three
19:50
Speaker 1: during this anti abortion campaign that was going throughout the country.
19:56
Speaker 1: So it was a Catholic organization which was set up
19:59
Speaker 1: to I help on wed mothers, and by help that
20:04
Speaker 1: probably means sending them to the Magdalene Laundries or they
20:08
Speaker 1: mother and baby homes, which we will be discussing at
20:11
Speaker 1: a later date. If you haven't listened to the Magadine
20:14
Speaker 1: Laundries episode, it will give you a lot of context
20:17
Speaker 1: for what's going on here. Context I'm going to have
20:20
Speaker 1: to give you context here. So the Irish constitution bun
20:24
Speaker 1: rachneherin the way the country is governed is in the
20:28
Speaker 1: Irish Constitution. In order to amend or repeal anything in
20:33
Speaker 1: the constitution, there has to be a referendum. So the
20:36
Speaker 1: country has to have a public vote in order to
20:39
Speaker 1: change the Irish Constitution. Like, that's just the rules, because
20:44
Speaker 1: it's a democracy, so the people have to have They'll say,
20:46
Speaker 1: that's just how it works. Like you might not like
20:49
Speaker 1: the answer, or you might love the answer, it doesn't matter.
20:51
Speaker 1: It's democracy. That's how fucking democracy works. Right, So there's
20:57
Speaker 1: a referendum, the eighth Amendment is written into the constitution.
21:01
Speaker 1: Less than half registered voters or half the voters of
21:05
Speaker 1: the country voted in the referendum. Less than half. So
21:10
Speaker 1: although this is a country entrenched in Catholic dogma and
21:16
Speaker 1: you know, the shame and guilt which is just ingrained
21:20
Speaker 1: with that, there's no clear way to say that everybody
21:25
Speaker 1: actually agreed because so many people didn't vote. But yes,
21:31
Speaker 1: so the constitution is changed. It's the effectively the right
21:37
Speaker 1: of the unborn has the same rights as the person
21:41
Speaker 1: with the womb right, both equal. Which now, since the sixties,
21:49
Speaker 1: it was effectively illegal to have an abortion, like you,
21:53
Speaker 1: there were like extrenuating circumstances and things like that. There
21:56
Speaker 1: was sort of a bit of wiggle wom not much.
22:00
Speaker 1: There was like a weey bit, like a wee bit,
22:02
Speaker 1: but it was still a shameful thing to do. So
22:06
Speaker 1: a lot of the time people would travel to England
22:10
Speaker 1: to have abortions. If you've seen Derry Girls, they make
22:13
Speaker 1: a joke about that, like, oh, Aunt Kathy went to
22:17
Speaker 1: England to have an abortion, didn't have the abortion and
22:20
Speaker 1: there's the way English fella like that's a running gag
22:23
Speaker 1: because it was so common for pregnant girls to just
22:29
Speaker 1: go to the UK to have their abortion and then
22:31
Speaker 1: come back home. It was one of those known secrets
22:34
Speaker 1: and it was just something that you kind of did.
22:37
Speaker 1: It was so and so sick and they've gone away
22:39
Speaker 1: for a little while. That being said, I would like
22:42
Speaker 1: to state that in twenty eighteen it was repealed. We
22:46
Speaker 1: repealed the eighth. It was a massive, massive turnout and
22:50
Speaker 1: you know, lives are slowly but surely being saved now
22:53
Speaker 1: because of it. So Courtney and his model squad they
22:56
Speaker 1: go to Curra and Cura send this letter to the
22:59
Speaker 1: Kerry County News paper, basically, you know, telling any women
23:04
Speaker 1: that have needed help with CURA please call as we
23:08
Speaker 1: need your help. The whole point was to like get
23:14
Speaker 1: their details and pass the details onto the mother squad,
23:17
Speaker 1: and in a move that surprised absolutely fucking no one,
23:22
Speaker 1: not one person responded because I think if anybody had actually,
23:28
Speaker 1: you know, gone through Cura, they did not want to
23:32
Speaker 1: be going near them again because they they did not
23:35
Speaker 1: treat people well, not at all. So after their Cura
23:39
Speaker 1: caper fails masterfully, they then move on to the Bon
23:44
Speaker 1: Sircles Hospital. Yes that's right, the very same bond succurs
23:48
Speaker 1: orders who were in charge of many, many mother and
23:52
Speaker 1: baby homes, which, yes, we'll be discussing next year because
23:56
Speaker 1: there's only so much trauma I can handle in one sitting.
23:59
Speaker 1: The nuns were asked for a list of women within
24:02
Speaker 1: like a certain time period who had gone from being
24:05
Speaker 1: pregnant to not being pregnant, but then did not have
24:09
Speaker 1: a newborn to show for the no longer being pregnant.
24:13
Speaker 1: This was also a fruitless endeavor. Now, after Bronze to Cols,
24:18
Speaker 1: they then moved on to Saint Catherine's Hospital and what
24:22
Speaker 1: do you know, third times the charm. The murder squad
24:26
Speaker 1: received the names of three unwed women who had recently
24:32
Speaker 1: been on the maternity ward in Saint Catharine's. Two of
24:35
Speaker 1: the women were quickly ruled out because one they had
24:38
Speaker 1: alibis in two they had fresh humans with them. They
24:43
Speaker 1: had their babies right. The final women on their list,
24:47
Speaker 1: the twenty five year old Joanna Hayes, had been in
24:50
Speaker 1: Saint Catherine's maternity ward on the fourteenth of April nineteen
24:55
Speaker 1: eighty four, the same day that baby John, the Kerry
24:59
Speaker 1: baby was to discovered. Now it was earlier on in
25:01
Speaker 1: the day she was in sort of earlier sort of
25:04
Speaker 1: mid morning. By the time she had gotten there, Juanna
25:07
Speaker 1: had gone to the hospital because she was bleeding quite badly,
25:12
Speaker 1: and upon inspection it was clear that she had recently
25:16
Speaker 1: given birth. And the quote that they give, like this
25:21
Speaker 1: statement is her uterus had been recently emptied. Like they
25:28
Speaker 1: don't say give birth, they don't say anything else, but
25:31
Speaker 1: uterus was emptied. Like what the actual fuck? Guys, Like,
25:37
Speaker 1: I understand clinical terms, but that is not that. But
25:41
Speaker 1: here's the thing. The gainecologist that was inspecting her, he
25:43
Speaker 1: was like, eh, you had a baby, And she's like,
25:47
Speaker 1: I didn't have a baby, and he's like, no, but
25:48
Speaker 1: you did, though, because you wouldn't be bleeding like this,
25:51
Speaker 1: if you didn't now this was sort of common at
25:55
Speaker 1: the time. It was very typical. So women who had
25:58
Speaker 1: given birth out side of wedlock, especially if they'd had
26:02
Speaker 1: a stillbirth or a miscarriage, they would go into the hospital.
26:06
Speaker 1: They would be seen, they would be asked a few questions,
26:09
Speaker 1: and they would eventually break and provide the information and
26:13
Speaker 1: then it would be dealt with and it would be
26:15
Speaker 1: kept hush hush. The guards wouldn't be informed, they wouldn't tell,
26:19
Speaker 1: you know, the police force, because you just wouldn't, you know.
26:23
Speaker 1: And it was it was just kept doing because there
26:25
Speaker 1: was no need to promote that information except this time
26:30
Speaker 1: the guardters shaken on a were involved. They were very
26:34
Speaker 1: involved in so this information was passed on except the
26:39
Speaker 1: very gain ecologist, who was by the way, massive pro lifer,
26:43
Speaker 1: very anti choice. He said to the GUARDI that he
26:46
Speaker 1: didn't think that this was the same person. He didn't
26:49
Speaker 1: think that she was the person who was the parent
26:52
Speaker 1: of baby John, Like, he said, that's it's a different baby, like,
26:55
Speaker 1: it's a different situation. But the GUARDI they didn't want
26:59
Speaker 1: to listen, but the guardie they had their minds made up.
27:03
Speaker 1: Now is it because you know there was public pressure
27:07
Speaker 1: on finding a result to this case. Was it prejudice
27:11
Speaker 1: that had been existing in a patriarchal system which was
27:14
Speaker 1: then emphasized via the Catholic doctrine which had seeped into
27:17
Speaker 1: every factor of the society. Whom's to say, but they
27:22
Speaker 1: are now gunning for Joanne Hayes, regardless whether or not
27:27
Speaker 1: the trained medical professional in his official medical opinion, who
27:34
Speaker 1: had dealt with this thing day in and day out
27:36
Speaker 1: for however many years, stated to them that Joanne Hayes
27:42
Speaker 1: was certainly not the mother of the baby found on
27:47
Speaker 1: the White Strand in Carzeven, County Kerry. Before we get
27:52
Speaker 1: into the absolute shit show that is happening next, I
27:56
Speaker 1: think it's best that we take a little break right now.
28:00
Speaker 1: I had to get a word from our sponsors. Twenty
28:06
Speaker 1: five years old from a wee village in Kerry called
28:08
Speaker 1: Abby Downey. She lives in I think effectively like a
28:13
Speaker 1: typical Irish cottage, like very very typical. There's no run
28:18
Speaker 1: in water, there's no heating system. I'm assuming that this
28:23
Speaker 1: is the type of house that would be heated by fireplaces,
28:28
Speaker 1: so you'd have a fireplace in every room and it
28:30
Speaker 1: would be fueled by either coal, logs or turf. Now
28:35
Speaker 1: turf is if you don't know, it's also known as peat.
28:38
Speaker 1: It is like an oily duct that you burn, but
28:41
Speaker 1: it gets hard and it has all of this like
28:44
Speaker 1: oils in it. They just provide heat. And I don't
28:48
Speaker 1: know who decided to like cut a chunk of dirt
28:51
Speaker 1: and then say it on fire, but it's a good idea.
28:55
Speaker 1: It smells amazing, by the way, it's very nice. So
28:59
Speaker 1: she in this multi generational house, which again very typical
29:04
Speaker 1: of the time. Like you didn't grow up and then
29:07
Speaker 1: kick your parents out. It's not a thing. So she
29:10
Speaker 1: lives there with like parents and her brothers and her sister.
29:14
Speaker 1: She's got brothers Ned and Michael, and a sister Kathleen,
29:17
Speaker 1: and an Auntie Brady, who also lived on the farm. Now,
29:20
Speaker 1: she did have another aunt who was a nun called
29:24
Speaker 1: Sister Aquinas, which is just amazing, but obviously she's a nun,
29:29
Speaker 1: so she's not there now. Joan is the only member
29:34
Speaker 1: of the household that has like an outside job. She
29:37
Speaker 1: works in a sports center. Not obviously some members of
29:40
Speaker 1: the family would work on the farm, but she has
29:43
Speaker 1: like an outside paying job. She's bringing more money into
29:47
Speaker 1: the household. So here's a horrible little fact for you.
29:51
Speaker 1: Like ten years before this, like less nine I think
29:55
Speaker 1: less than ten percent of married women in Ireland had
29:59
Speaker 1: a job. And then women who were not married, like
30:02
Speaker 1: all of their jobs, all of their labor was sort
30:05
Speaker 1: of low unskilled, low paid. Basically the system existed to
30:11
Speaker 1: keep the boot on the neck, to ensure that women
30:14
Speaker 1: didn't have financial security or independence or you know, economic options.
30:21
Speaker 1: And this is also a period of time where divorce
30:25
Speaker 1: was also illegal, Like divorce was illegal in Ireland until
30:31
Speaker 1: was it nineteen ninety six, So even if a woman
30:34
Speaker 1: wanted any kind of freedom, she couldn't get divorced, and
30:38
Speaker 1: she couldn't get a decent job, she couldn't get anything
30:40
Speaker 1: well paying enough to support herself. Like that's had the
30:45
Speaker 1: crux of it in it. And a lot of this
30:47
Speaker 1: was put in place by devil eerra Aim and Devial Era,
30:51
Speaker 1: the absolute prick. Like I'm not a fan of Devil Era.
30:55
Speaker 1: I will always talk about hilarious his prison break was
30:57
Speaker 1: because it is objectively funny, but quickside by. There are
31:03
Speaker 1: two articles in the Irish Constitution forty one point two
31:06
Speaker 1: point one and forty one point two point two. So
31:09
Speaker 1: the first one recognizes the role of women in the
31:12
Speaker 1: home like the importance of a homemaker of a mother
31:16
Speaker 1: yari yarayara, and the second states that mothers shall not
31:22
Speaker 1: be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labor to
31:26
Speaker 1: the neglect of their duties in the home. Well, give
31:31
Speaker 1: us better part time work and pay us more bitches.
31:34
Speaker 1: Fuck you, sorry but not sorry, But that's the thing.
31:38
Speaker 1: Aimon Devalera was the bloody reason for this. I do
31:42
Speaker 1: not believe for one second that Aim and devil Lea
31:45
Speaker 1: arranged the ambush that muddled Michael Collins. The movie took
31:49
Speaker 1: a lot of liberties. Stop getting your stoical information from cinema,
31:55
Speaker 1: But I do believe he was a misogynist asshole. Looking
31:59
Speaker 1: forward to that one star review I'm going to get
32:01
Speaker 1: from some op nationalist who's like, eh, she was meaning
32:04
Speaker 1: about Amon Devonia. While of theeman Devla wasn't so much
32:08
Speaker 1: of a prick. I wouldn't have anything to say about
32:10
Speaker 1: would I. Now back to Joan. When she's working in
32:13
Speaker 1: this sports center, she meets a man who sounds like
32:16
Speaker 1: he was involved in the seventeen ninety eight wexforld rebellion.
32:20
Speaker 1: Jeremiah Locke, Like that is not that is not a
32:23
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties name. Like that is that is a seventeen
32:26
Speaker 1: eighties name. I don't care who you are, that's that's
32:29
Speaker 1: an old name. Jeremiah and Juan are very flirty at work.
32:35
Speaker 1: They're messing about with each other. They're choking, they're play hiding,
32:38
Speaker 1: they're flirting, and they are in no way keeping their
32:42
Speaker 1: relationship a secret. Like everybody in the sports center, everybody knows.
32:47
Speaker 1: Everybody knows that they're binking, right, which is bad enough
32:51
Speaker 1: because this is not good for her reputation, because you know,
32:55
Speaker 1: throughout history the easiest thing to gain and the hardest
32:58
Speaker 1: thing to lose as a woman is a reputation. Because
33:03
Speaker 1: of course it is. Now you might be thinking, as sure,
33:06
Speaker 1: they're just seeing each other, what's the harm? Well, One,
33:10
Speaker 1: this is nineteen eighties Ireland. And two, Jeremiah is married.
33:16
Speaker 1: Not only is Jeremiah Locke married in a country where
33:20
Speaker 1: divorce is not a legal option, not in any capacity
33:26
Speaker 1: like till death do you part. That is the situation. Now.
33:30
Speaker 1: Not only is he existing in this space, but when
33:34
Speaker 1: he starts seeing Joan, he has only been married six months.
33:41
Speaker 1: Juan was absolutely besorted with Jeremiah. She loved him, she
33:46
Speaker 1: adored him, and she was really hoping that he was
33:49
Speaker 1: gonna leave his wife for her. And like, they were
33:53
Speaker 1: so open about seeing each other that basically everybody in
33:56
Speaker 1: the village knew, well everyone apart from Joanne's family, Like
34:01
Speaker 1: everybody knew what was going on, Like the local guarda
34:04
Speaker 1: knew that they were seeing each other, like hey knew right.
34:08
Speaker 1: But again, no member of Juanne's family knew of this
34:12
Speaker 1: elicit affair until the eight month pregnant Mary Locke showed
34:19
Speaker 1: up on their doorstep with her sister and mother in
34:23
Speaker 1: law in tow and they show up till the entire
34:27
Speaker 1: family about what's been going on and demands that the
34:31
Speaker 1: affair stops now. This causes a whole commotion, and so
34:37
Speaker 1: Juanne and Jeremiah do not go to their respective homes
34:40
Speaker 1: that evening. Instead they go stay with a friend up
34:43
Speaker 1: in Tree. But the following day he goes back home
34:47
Speaker 1: to his wife and Joanne she goes back home to
34:51
Speaker 1: her family absolutely heartbroken. She goes back home and tells
34:56
Speaker 1: them that she's absolutely dumb with Jeremiah. She's going to
34:58
Speaker 1: move on with her life, and also by the way,
35:01
Speaker 1: she's pregnant. Then, on the twenty fifth of June nineteen
35:05
Speaker 1: eighty two, Mary Locke gives birth to a healthy baby boy.
35:11
Speaker 1: Five days later, Juan suffers a miscarriage, and so Juan
35:16
Speaker 1: has to go back to work because you know, she
35:19
Speaker 1: needs a job. She can't lose this job. And she
35:22
Speaker 1: goes back to work in the sports center, and after
35:25
Speaker 1: suffering a miscarriage, has to openly congratulate Jeremiah on the
35:31
Speaker 1: birth of his son, which is just utterly heartbreaking. And
35:36
Speaker 1: things seem to have settled down for a couple of months,
35:41
Speaker 1: and I do mean a couple of months, because two
35:42
Speaker 1: months later, Jeremiah and Juan are seeing each other again,
35:47
Speaker 1: and it's not long before Juan is pregnant again. And
35:52
Speaker 1: then on the nineteenth of May nineteen eighty three, Juan
35:56
Speaker 1: gives birth to a baby daughter, Ayvonne, and instead of
36:00
Speaker 1: being sent to the laundries or the mother and Baby
36:03
Speaker 1: home or just defend for herself, her entire family like
36:08
Speaker 1: love this baby, like they are all over Yvonne, like
36:11
Speaker 1: shehares They're like, oh, cherub, and they just don't mention
36:15
Speaker 1: like her origin they're just like she's here. How did
36:18
Speaker 1: it happen? I don't know, but we love this baby,
36:21
Speaker 1: like she has this love and support from her family
36:24
Speaker 1: that so many people didn't. And of course Joane is
36:28
Speaker 1: still thinking that he loves her and that he's going
36:30
Speaker 1: to be with her. And honestly, she must be barely
36:34
Speaker 1: healed before they are shagging again, because three months after
36:38
Speaker 1: Yvaughn is born, she is pregnant again because Jeremiah apparently
36:44
Speaker 1: just can't put a lid on it, like not even
36:47
Speaker 1: a wee bit, right, because and this is so much worse.
36:52
Speaker 1: Not only is Juanne pregnant, but so is Mary Locke,
36:56
Speaker 1: Like he is consistently just fucking these two women over.
37:03
Speaker 1: And here's the thing. Jeremiah could have access to condoms.
37:07
Speaker 1: He could very easily, well not easily, but he could
37:09
Speaker 1: have access to condoms because married couples were allowed condoms.
37:14
Speaker 1: Like again, this is a period of time, we're only
37:17
Speaker 1: two out of every twelve pharmacies would or slash could
37:21
Speaker 1: sell prophylactics, right, and it was only again to married couples.
37:26
Speaker 1: Like at one point this doctor had tried to order
37:29
Speaker 1: someone and they held back at customs because they were
37:32
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no no, but yeah, like married
37:35
Speaker 1: couples could get condoms, so Jeremiah could do that. He
37:41
Speaker 1: chose not to do that and put both of these
37:42
Speaker 1: women's lives at risk because he's such a fucking arsehole.
37:48
Speaker 1: Don't be a fill rap your till they are, Jeremiah,
37:50
Speaker 1: and he's like, fuck that for a game of soldiers,
37:52
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do what I want. And it's such a
37:55
Speaker 1: vicious cycle. It's like you can't use protection, you can't
37:59
Speaker 1: use reception, you cannot have an abortion, if something happens,
38:04
Speaker 1: you cannot get divorced, you cannot support yourself, like everything
38:09
Speaker 1: exists to just constantly put women in this pinball machine
38:13
Speaker 1: of shame. They're just hitting off the sides, and the
38:17
Speaker 1: numbers of sins just keep growing, like fuck this. And
38:22
Speaker 1: because the way this is just an integral part of
38:26
Speaker 1: the way society was, the way that someone like Juan
38:30
Speaker 1: was automatically portrayed as this siren, this temptress who lured
38:35
Speaker 1: this man away with her feminine wiles, like get a grip.
38:39
Speaker 1: So here is something I forgot to mention before, which
38:41
Speaker 1: is really bloody relevant. Actually, when superintended Courtney is talking
38:46
Speaker 1: to like the truly guardy. He tells them that baby
38:50
Speaker 1: John the Kerry Baby was stabbed in the back right.
38:55
Speaker 1: For the record, baby John the Kerry Baby was not
39:00
Speaker 1: stabbed in the back at all. He was stabbed in
39:02
Speaker 1: the front all the time. No backstabbing, right at all.
39:06
Speaker 1: But that is the information he passes on to the
39:08
Speaker 1: truly place. So the Garda Hukhana they go to two
39:12
Speaker 1: separate locations. They go to the Hayes residents round up
39:16
Speaker 1: Juan's family, while a bunch of detectives go to the
39:19
Speaker 1: sports center where Joan is working and collect her from
39:23
Speaker 1: there for questioning. So they bring them up to the station.
39:26
Speaker 1: They put them all in separate rooms and they start
39:28
Speaker 1: interrogating Juan. Like so far, they have no reason to
39:32
Speaker 1: suspect Joan because again the guy in Acologists said that
39:36
Speaker 1: he genuinely didn't think she was it. And also the
39:40
Speaker 1: local Garda from r Bonny not only knew Juan, but
39:46
Speaker 1: knew she was pregnant and knew that Jeremiah was the
39:49
Speaker 1: father of the baby. Like this was not a secret,
39:53
Speaker 1: Like she wasn't hiding anything, so none of it made sense,
39:57
Speaker 1: But anyway, they interrogate her anyway, and like she tells
40:01
Speaker 1: them she gave birth, the baby was stillborn, and she
40:05
Speaker 1: buried it in a discussion like that's it. And they
40:08
Speaker 1: tell her they need like more details regarding it, and
40:10
Speaker 1: so she does. She tells them that on the twelfth
40:13
Speaker 1: of April, like it's nighttime, she goes into labor and
40:18
Speaker 1: she panics, and so she leaves the house, goes into
40:21
Speaker 1: a field on her brother's farm and gives birth alone.
40:26
Speaker 1: The baby is stillborn, it's like six or seven months old,
40:30
Speaker 1: and she panics. She tears the umbilical cord with her
40:34
Speaker 1: bare hands and then leaves the baby on some hey.
40:38
Speaker 1: Then she goes to bed. She gets up the next day,
40:41
Speaker 1: she puts the baby in a paper bag and then
40:44
Speaker 1: a carrier bag from the chemist, and then buries it
40:47
Speaker 1: in a pond on the farm. And the next day
40:51
Speaker 1: Joanne was still bleeding, so she went to Saint Catherine's
40:53
Speaker 1: hospital and she stayed there for like six days and
40:56
Speaker 1: then went home. Now, the guard you weren't happy with
40:59
Speaker 1: this because it didn't fit their storyline. This wasn't what
41:03
Speaker 1: they wanted to hear, and so they kept her there
41:06
Speaker 1: and they badgered her and they harassed her, and they
41:09
Speaker 1: parrassed her family, and they beat her brothers until they
41:13
Speaker 1: all started confessing. And on top of all the physical abuse,
41:17
Speaker 1: like they are threatening, they were threatening this young woman
41:20
Speaker 1: in her entire family. They're threatening to put her daughter
41:22
Speaker 1: in an orphanage, and they're going to sell the farm.
41:25
Speaker 1: They're going to leave them destitute, like all this horrible stuff,
41:28
Speaker 1: and it gets to the point that she ends up
41:31
Speaker 1: just agreeing. She ends up signing the conversion, which is
41:34
Speaker 1: nothing like what she said in the beginning. So she
41:38
Speaker 1: says that, you know, she killed the baby and the
41:40
Speaker 1: family home, and that her brothers Michael and Ned took
41:44
Speaker 1: the baby and threw the baby into the sea, and
41:48
Speaker 1: her family are like, yep, that's a thing that definitely happened.
41:52
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. A couple of things apart from
41:54
Speaker 1: the fact that car Zeven and Abby Dune they are
42:00
Speaker 1: an hour and ten minutes like by car away from
42:03
Speaker 1: each other, like that's a long journey, like somebody would
42:06
Speaker 1: have noticed that, you know. And also the small fact
42:09
Speaker 1: that the Kerry baby was not in the sea, like
42:13
Speaker 1: the infant was not wet, it was placed there, like
42:17
Speaker 1: there was a bag nearby that was like a ferilizer bag,
42:20
Speaker 1: and so they're like, oh, it's from a farm, it's
42:22
Speaker 1: clearly yours. Like that's very poor police work, lads, very poor.
42:28
Speaker 1: But yes, the whole family are agreeing with a story,
42:30
Speaker 1: but they're all saying different things, like each member of
42:34
Speaker 1: the family has like a different like story and none
42:38
Speaker 1: of it is fucking aligning. Like none of the stories
42:42
Speaker 1: have juan giving birth in the field, like some say
42:46
Speaker 1: that she was with her Auntie Brady, some say she
42:48
Speaker 1: was alone in her bedroom. One family member said the
42:51
Speaker 1: baby was born alive, another said it was stillborn. Some
42:55
Speaker 1: confessions had Juan beat the baby to death with a
42:59
Speaker 1: toilet brush, others that she strangled the infant with her
43:03
Speaker 1: bare hands. Oh my god. In one option like the
43:09
Speaker 1: brothers you know drove away, and another like the sister
43:13
Speaker 1: Kathleen was there, and then in one account Bridy was there.
43:18
Speaker 1: Like there's just all these different stories and like none
43:21
Speaker 1: of the confessions are matching, like none of them, but
43:24
Speaker 1: the guardian are like, ah, sure, that'll do, like even
43:27
Speaker 1: though nothing makes sense now critically and I don't want
43:31
Speaker 1: to say critically. In the confession that Juanne signs, she
43:37
Speaker 1: states that she stabbed baby John in the back. Now
43:43
Speaker 1: as we know, this is not correct, like this was
43:47
Speaker 1: false information. Maybe it was misinformation, maybe it was disinformation.
43:51
Speaker 1: Either way, it was incorrect, and so that itself should
43:55
Speaker 1: have just discredited the whole thing. But you know, they
43:58
Speaker 1: wanted to put the blame on Joanne. And here's the
44:01
Speaker 1: thing as well. Like initially she's telling the GUARDI like,
44:05
Speaker 1: the baby's on the farm, you can find him. And
44:07
Speaker 1: they go and look, And by look, I mean they
44:11
Speaker 1: probably stood there, put their hands on their hips and
44:13
Speaker 1: kind of looked on the left and the right and
44:15
Speaker 1: went an, now, lads, no baby here, and then went
44:18
Speaker 1: straight to try and force a confession out of her.
44:21
Speaker 1: Now juan ends up being sent to Limbrick Prison to
44:25
Speaker 1: await trial. Right meanwhile, even though she is dealing with
44:30
Speaker 1: this absolute shit show, Juanne still has the wherewithal to
44:34
Speaker 1: tell her sister Kathleen where the baby was, you know,
44:39
Speaker 1: the stillborn boy who she would have named Shane if
44:43
Speaker 1: he lived. So she's like, this is where baby Shane is.
44:47
Speaker 1: And so Kathleen goes out, she finds the little pool
44:52
Speaker 1: on the farm and she finds the body of baby Shane.
44:58
Speaker 1: And so there you have it. This is not the
45:01
Speaker 1: Cohersevine baby. It's not baby John because here is this
45:05
Speaker 1: infant there he is. But of course the guardian want
45:09
Speaker 1: more proof, and so they have this infant corpse. They
45:13
Speaker 1: have the blood tested, and the baby has Type O blood,
45:18
Speaker 1: which is the exact same blood type as both Joan
45:23
Speaker 1: Hayes and Jeremiah Locke Baby John. The cohersevene baby had
45:28
Speaker 1: Type A blood, and so the Kerry baby could not
45:33
Speaker 1: be Jeremiah and Juan's son. And because the murder squad
45:37
Speaker 1: are absolutely grasping its straws at this point, they come
45:41
Speaker 1: up with the theory of the very very very incredibly
45:45
Speaker 1: super rare phenomenon of which I'm only going to say
45:48
Speaker 1: once because it's very very complicated and difficult to pronounce
45:53
Speaker 1: hetero paternal super precandation. Dare I say it right? I
45:57
Speaker 1: don't even know. I don't even care. Vitrual paternal superficandation.
46:02
Speaker 1: And what that is is when two eggs are released
46:06
Speaker 1: from a womb within several days of each other, and
46:10
Speaker 1: they are impregnated by different sperm right by like one
46:15
Speaker 1: dude than another dude. And so the Gurdi's theory is
46:18
Speaker 1: that she was impregnated by Jeremiah and then like within
46:23
Speaker 1: a couple of days she had sex with another man
46:26
Speaker 1: who had Type A blood and also got pregnant. Then,
46:29
Speaker 1: which is that is? That is that is a haystack
46:35
Speaker 1: of grasp and e straws. Instead of maybe assuming that
46:38
Speaker 1: the simplest solution is probably correct, like hey, maybe it's
46:43
Speaker 1: someone else's infant with a different blood type, they're like, no, no,
46:47
Speaker 1: she clearly shagged two men in quick sissession and this
46:51
Speaker 1: very rare convenient thing that happens for us in this case.
46:57
Speaker 1: And so the Gunnish Cana are patting themselves in the
46:59
Speaker 1: back and they want to get this through as quickly
47:01
Speaker 1: as possible. So when this is handed to the Director
47:05
Speaker 1: of Public Prosecutions so you know Juan can be prosecuted,
47:11
Speaker 1: they look at this and go what the actual fuck,
47:17
Speaker 1: Like this can't go to court, like there are so
47:19
Speaker 1: many holes in your story. It's practically a fishing net.
47:23
Speaker 1: They looked at the confessions, they looked at the DNA evidence,
47:26
Speaker 1: and they're just like, lads, like withdraw these charges immediately,
47:31
Speaker 1: like stop it by done right. And because the Director
47:35
Speaker 1: of Public Prosecutions was like stop this shit, the guard
47:40
Speaker 1: he had to just do what they said. And then
47:42
Speaker 1: on the tenth of October nineteen eighty four, all charges
47:45
Speaker 1: against Juan Hayes and her family were dropped and then
47:49
Speaker 1: an inquiry was started to kind of go like how
47:51
Speaker 1: the shit did this get this far? Like how did
47:54
Speaker 1: this happen? And so the inquiry surprisingly when absolutely no,
48:00
Speaker 1: because they hold this tribunal right with just as Kevin Lynch,
48:04
Speaker 1: who is just the absolute worst. The whole point of
48:10
Speaker 1: this tribunal, I want to make very clear, the whole
48:12
Speaker 1: point of it was to investigate the guardi and their practices.
48:19
Speaker 1: It was there to ensure that justice was followed, the
48:22
Speaker 1: arm of the law was followed, and that they were
48:25
Speaker 1: doing things by the bye. It was to see whether
48:27
Speaker 1: they were threatening the family if they had conducted a
48:30
Speaker 1: poor investigation. But they didn't treat it like that. They
48:34
Speaker 1: treated it like it was a trial of Juan. Like
48:38
Speaker 1: just as Kevin Lynch, he kept referring to Juane Hayes
48:41
Speaker 1: as the wrongdoer, which is like, you can't do that
48:45
Speaker 1: because one, this isn't about her, this is about the guardie.
48:50
Speaker 1: And instead of doing that, like she ends up being
48:54
Speaker 1: put on the stand for five days, which is like
48:59
Speaker 1: the longest anyone had ever been on the stand before,
49:01
Speaker 1: and they were questioning her and requestioning her and asking
49:04
Speaker 1: her about her sex life and the babies and everything
49:07
Speaker 1: else that happened, and they were really treating her like
49:10
Speaker 1: she was on trial when the whole purpose of this
49:14
Speaker 1: was to check to make sure that Guardie were doing
49:18
Speaker 1: their fucking chops. And also weird side note, Kevin Lynch,
49:24
Speaker 1: just as Kevin Lynch the judge, he carried about the
49:29
Speaker 1: umbilical cord of baby Shane, like, he carried that with
49:34
Speaker 1: him and it was then shown at this tribuneal like
49:38
Speaker 1: because he didn't believe that she could like rip it
49:42
Speaker 1: with her own hands. He didn't think that was a
49:43
Speaker 1: thing that could be done. Like him and the other
49:47
Speaker 1: like fourteen dudes that were involved in this, like none
49:50
Speaker 1: of them had even like seen a birth happen, so
49:54
Speaker 1: they did not believe that she could give birth standing up. Now.
49:58
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know this. You can basically
50:00
Speaker 1: give birth in any position like bit over, on your back,
50:05
Speaker 1: on your stomach, like, depending on on how you need
50:09
Speaker 1: to do it, like loads people do it like on
50:11
Speaker 1: their knees or standing up like. There are so many
50:14
Speaker 1: options for giving birth, Like it's not just one way,
50:18
Speaker 1: like so many options, right, just as long as the
50:22
Speaker 1: legs are open and there's like a direct route, you're
50:26
Speaker 1: good most of the time. Like even during this tribuneal,
50:30
Speaker 1: they keep saying that Juanne got to herself pregnant, Like no,
50:36
Speaker 1: there was another person involved, Jeremiah Locke, and like when
50:40
Speaker 1: he is brought forth in question, they're like, hm, hmmm,
50:43
Speaker 1: we're gonna be like sensitive, We don't want a harmy reputation.
50:47
Speaker 1: Is if he isn't the man cheating on his wife,
50:49
Speaker 1: is if he isn't like a major component, the primary
50:52
Speaker 1: component in this scenario, like he is the reason these
50:56
Speaker 1: women are pregnant, Like he again, could just please use
51:00
Speaker 1: a condom, but no, he just wants to ruin women's lives.
51:05
Speaker 1: But yeah, he's getting questioned and they're like, we don't
51:07
Speaker 1: want to damage your reputation. We know this is difficult
51:10
Speaker 1: for you. Whereas they've got juan and they're questioning her
51:13
Speaker 1: about the size of her uterus and her miscarriages and
51:17
Speaker 1: everything that goes along with that. Previous lovers. Like they
51:20
Speaker 1: questioned Jeremiah asking if he was like the first as
51:25
Speaker 1: if that would matter and they're just trying to be
51:28
Speaker 1: so considerate to him. Well, they're quite happy for Juanne
51:33
Speaker 1: to have an absolute breakdown on the stand and instead
51:36
Speaker 1: of giving her a fucking break they sedate her as
51:40
Speaker 1: if that's better. The entire thing was there to just
51:45
Speaker 1: attack her and her character and they and for the record,
51:50
Speaker 1: at the end of this tribune, no, like they don't
51:52
Speaker 1: mention anything about how the guards conducted the investigation, Like
51:58
Speaker 1: they don't they honding on that, they don't bring forth
52:02
Speaker 1: any of that. It's it's such bullshit and the treatment
52:06
Speaker 1: of Joanna does not go unnoticed because during this tribunal,
52:10
Speaker 1: women from all over Ireland show up outside to protest.
52:15
Speaker 1: They're outside to protest this and they're writing letters like
52:19
Speaker 1: they're writing letters to like the wives of the guardy
52:21
Speaker 1: being like what the hell are you doing? You should
52:24
Speaker 1: be ashamed of yourselves, like it's a whole situation. And
52:27
Speaker 1: Joanna's getting these letters and these people are showing up
52:30
Speaker 1: and she doesn't get it, like it is part of
52:34
Speaker 1: this feminist movement, but she doesn't feel like it's part
52:38
Speaker 1: of that. She doesn't understand why they're there. She doesn't
52:42
Speaker 1: realize I think at the time, how symbolic like she
52:47
Speaker 1: is because she is the fallen women, Like that's where
52:52
Speaker 1: all of the prejudice is being thrown at. She's an
52:55
Speaker 1: example of what happens to people in the society with
52:59
Speaker 1: this press when she was just a woman who suffered
53:04
Speaker 1: a miscarriage and she was accused of a violent murder
53:09
Speaker 1: because of that, and because people are protesting it, well,
53:12
Speaker 1: women are protesting it, like just as Kevin, just as
53:16
Speaker 1: Kevin Lynn. She's like, I don't get why women of
53:19
Speaker 1: Ireland care about this. It's like, of course you don't,
53:22
Speaker 1: because you're an idiot. And to the end of this,
53:25
Speaker 1: Kevin's just pushing the narrative that Joanne's a liar and
53:29
Speaker 1: the guardy at worst. At worst, we're guilty of elevated
53:37
Speaker 1: wishful thinking to the status of hard fact, like what
53:45
Speaker 1: like how can you look at this evidence and not
53:47
Speaker 1: see what's happening? And the Kerry baby scandal, like this
53:51
Speaker 1: is a point where a few things start to turn
53:55
Speaker 1: in Ireland. It's a slow, slow born with things start
53:59
Speaker 1: turn at this point before Juan like she loses her job,
54:04
Speaker 1: her reputation is just buggered, and it's thirty years before
54:11
Speaker 1: she gets an apology from the guardy like the Guard
54:14
Speaker 1: Commissioner issues an apology in twenty fifteen, and the investigation
54:19
Speaker 1: and the inquest are called and a quote grossly negligent.
54:24
Speaker 1: Now it's going to be another five years before Juan
54:27
Speaker 1: and her family get an apology from the country, right.
54:32
Speaker 1: And in twenty nineteen they are getting ready to take
54:35
Speaker 1: the Guard Commissioner and the Director of Public Prosecution to
54:40
Speaker 1: like the High Court. And after a few months, Juane
54:45
Speaker 1: Hayes is awarded one point five million euros like her siblings,
54:51
Speaker 1: like Ned, Michael and Kathleen, they get three hundred thousand
54:54
Speaker 1: and eight is compensation yvone who was her daughter is
54:59
Speaker 1: her daughter was the baby that lived, She got like
55:03
Speaker 1: one hundred grand And the court basically announces that you know,
55:08
Speaker 1: everybody was wrong, they treated them like shit and they
55:11
Speaker 1: deserve like a full apology, and to top it all off,
55:15
Speaker 1: that the attack on Juan and her families was unconstitutional
55:21
Speaker 1: and even though she got money and she gets this
55:24
Speaker 1: on the end, like she didn't really get justice because
55:28
Speaker 1: of the trauma she went through and I don't think
55:31
Speaker 1: she ever will. And it's such a fucking travesty and
55:34
Speaker 1: it makes me so mad because eventually they do DNA
55:38
Speaker 1: testing right on baby John. He's exhumed, they do the
55:42
Speaker 1: testing and it proves unequivocally, undoubtedly that Juan Hayes is
55:48
Speaker 1: not the mother of baby John. And it was like
55:54
Speaker 1: earlier this year they actually brought in two people for questioning,
55:57
Speaker 1: a man and a woman. So they find and the
56:00
Speaker 1: biological parents of the cohersevene baby. Now they bring them in,
56:05
Speaker 1: they are questioned and they question them in relation to
56:10
Speaker 1: a man who's been like dead five years and they're
56:12
Speaker 1: questioning about this specific person and then they let them go. Now,
56:19
Speaker 1: there's no statute limitations for MUDDA in Ireland, like you
56:23
Speaker 1: don't just get away with it one day, which means
56:28
Speaker 1: they either don't have enough evidence for a court of
56:30
Speaker 1: law or they don't believe that these two were actually
56:34
Speaker 1: involved in that. And considering everything else that was going
56:39
Speaker 1: on in the country at the time, there are so
56:43
Speaker 1: many things that could have happened to the cohersevene baby,
56:47
Speaker 1: to baby John, and we may never know the truth.
56:54
Speaker 1: And there are hundreds probably getting a thousand, two thousand
56:59
Speaker 1: even at this point. If you go through the history,
57:02
Speaker 1: if you find what's been hidden of children who suffered,
57:07
Speaker 1: or the women who suffered just because of the way
57:11
Speaker 1: the country treated them and the way that society thought
57:13
Speaker 1: they deserved to be treated. All well, men got a
57:17
Speaker 1: pat on the back and got away with it as
57:19
Speaker 1: if they weren't involved, as if they aren't the perpetrators
57:24
Speaker 1: most of the time. And on that hirowing note, I
57:29
Speaker 1: think it's time to end this. So because this has
57:32
Speaker 1: been generally dark and depressing, I want to give you
57:36
Speaker 1: something light. For recommendations. For listening, you know what, go
57:41
Speaker 1: listen to the Benga Boys. It's ridiculous, just the fast
57:44
Speaker 1: food rockers. Something silly. You know you deserve it. Just
57:48
Speaker 1: go and sing along to an anthem of your youth,
57:53
Speaker 1: just let it out. For watching. For watching, just go
57:59
Speaker 1: watch an episode of and Absolute Louis You doesn't matter
58:02
Speaker 1: what age you are, it will resonate with you in
58:04
Speaker 1: some way. Just go watch boy like that's what you need.
58:08
Speaker 1: And for reading, go read The Devil in Number by
58:11
Speaker 1: Mark Gaddis. It is, it is weird, it is silly,
58:15
Speaker 1: and it's it's very it's very British humor. But uh,
58:18
Speaker 1: it's something. And with that, I'm going to bite you. Goodnight. Adios.
58:23
Speaker 1: Oulivoi readaz n my friends, Bye bye,