Latest / Radically Genuine / 51. The Zyprexa Papers scandal w/ Jim Gottstein

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51. The Zyprexa Papers scandal w/ Jim Gottstein · Radically Genuine

0:01
[sean]: welcome to the radically genuine podcast i'm dr roger mc phelan all fans out there
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[sean]: give us some feedback you can email us through our website w w w rad
0:30
[sean]: gen pod dot com that's it some interesting news recently alex berenson is back on
0:39
[sean]: twitter shan have you been following eric alex barrinson over the yeah i'm aware of
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[sean]: how he got kicked off twitter
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[jim_gottstein]: to
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[sean]: and the story behind it and a lot of the things he was sharing during
0:52
[sean]: the the covid crisis and and why he got kicked off so yeah there was
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[sean]: interest there and i was recently listening to another of my my daily podcasts and
1:01
[sean]: i heard them speaking about the situation and what the latest is it's interesting once
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[sean]: you go yeah alex berenson is somebody that i was following on twitter for some
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[sean]: information regarding the efficacy of vaccines with covid and one of the things that was
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[sean]: i think special about alex berenson was his history as a new york times columnist
1:24
[sean]: and personally you know at that time as many of our listeners know i was
1:29
[sean]: knee deep in a lot of the literature on safety and efficacies of anti depressence
1:35
[sean]: because we were creating some position statements here for our practice and once i've learned
1:42
[sean]: about how these drugs came to market some of the fraud the problems within the
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[sean]: clinical trials how they were marketed i was obviously very skeptical about vaccines for a
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[sean]: novel virus in a short amount of time so ultimately i think that what drew
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[sean]: me to alex berenson was somebody else who was a skeptic and wanted to approach
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[sean]: putting anything into our bodies with some healthy degree of skepticism and challenging authority and
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[sean]: so he recently was brought back on to twitter he was kicked off for quote
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[sean]: quote spreading misinformation about the efficacy or the safety of ovid vaccines he has since
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[sean]: been vindicated as a lot of the data now comes in and just as sometimes
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[sean]: the universe allows us to be connected to people that our outside of our normal
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[sean]: day to day it was funny that i got an email from our our guest
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[sean]: today and our guest is an attorney and he's an advocate for people diagnosed with
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[sean]: serious mental illness but jim got steen is most famously known for sapiniapining and release
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[sean]: in the ziprexa papers in late two
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[jim_gottstein]: yes
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[sean]: thousand and six resulting in a series of new york times articles and an editorial
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[sean]: which calling for congressional investigation into the safety of the drug you know who wrote
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[sean]: that article alex berenson alex berenson so you know that alex barrison was somebody who
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[sean]: was a skeptic because he intimate knowledge of the pharmasutical industries practices yeah right so
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[sean]: in two thousand in january two thousand and nine elie lily who was the pharmasutical
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[sean]: company that manufactured the drugs i prex pled guilty and agreed to pay one point
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[sean]: four billion in civil and criminal finds for the activities that were revealed in the
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[sean]: ziprexa papers um in twenty twenty jim our guest published his book the siprexa papers
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[sean]: giving a first hand account of what really happened including his battles with the powerful
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[sean]: legal teams that represent eli lily and also his work on behalf of a psychiatric
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[sean]: patient by the name of bill bigley um who's really made this ordeal possible to
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[sean]: capena this information and expose the sideprexa papers i think it's safe to say it
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[sean]: was a heroic act on his part and saved tens of thousands of lives while
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[sean]: placing himself at risk for criminal prosecution he found the law project for psychiatric rights
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[sean]: and we actually extremely honoured today to to have him in radically conversation have a
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[sean]: radically genuine conversation jim welcome to the podcast
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[jim_gottstein]: hank you very much i'm pleased to be here a year very flattering i might
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[jim_gottstein]: just mention that i tried to get alex to read my book from before it
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[jim_gottstein]: was published and he said he's too busy saving the world
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[sean]: yeah
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[jim_gottstein]: which you know
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[sean]: my
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[jim_gottstein]: so anyway yeah that's an interesting convergence there
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[sean]: yeah alex is doing great work i'm a big fan of his and i think
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[sean]: it's coming from a place of just being very conscious of the harms that can
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[sean]: be created by farmasuticles and really believing and informed consent and respecting india everyone's individual
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[sean]: rights to make choices or decisions in the best interest of their own health their
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[sean]: own body and their welfare which brings me to an opening quit and a lot
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[sean]: of our listeners might not understand your background but could you tell us really how
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[jim_gottstein]: i
5:45
[sean]: you got involved in such a passionate way in psychiatric legal advocacy
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[jim_gottstein]: well
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[sean]: yeah
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[jim_gottstein]: in nineteen eighty two when i was twenty nine i got into a situation where
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[jim_gottstein]: i didn't get sleep um and basically they call it icottic but i went crazy
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[jim_gottstein]: and i subsequently learned anybody who doesn't sleep for long enough well we'll basically lose
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[jim_gottstein]: it and i don't have a particularly high tolerance for lack of sleep and so
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[jim_gottstein]: you know i've been pretty successful before that and i had no idea that my
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[jim_gottstein]: mind could you know become unreliable but anyway it did um m and it was
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[jim_gottstein]: in june june and anchor alaska and i had gone to my dad's house to
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[jim_gottstein]: try and get some sleep over there and i just fallen asleep when i mean
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[jim_gottstein]: i think for like a second which is something that you know i've experienced when
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[jim_gottstein]: i come out of what you know what's called manic episodes before but anyway i
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[jim_gottstein]: just fall asleep and i woke up and i heard the devil coming down the
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[jim_gottstein]: hall so
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[sean]: it was
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[jim_gottstein]: i was on the second floor and i went over to the window and i
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[jim_gottstein]: looked down and there was lawn down there in the sidewalk and and i knew
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[jim_gottstein]: how to do a parachute landing fall so i i thought well if i missed
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[jim_gottstein]: the sidewalk i'll be okay i was in my underwear it was one in the
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[jim_gottstein]: morning and it was light because it was june so i jumped out i missed
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[jim_gottstein]: the sidewalk i did a perfect parshoot landing fall and i didn't hurt myself but
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[jim_gottstein]: i got grabbed and hauled into the hospital in a straight jacket um m and
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[jim_gottstein]: so they shot me up with something that ut me to sleep and so i
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[jim_gottstein]: wake up and it's bad and there's this attendant at the foot of the bed
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[jim_gottstein]: with a clip board he asked me what day is it and so i say
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[jim_gottstein]: i ask him how long have i been asleep so he writes down that i
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[jim_gottstein]: don't know what day it is and
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[sean]: m
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[jim_gottstein]: that's kind of the way it went and they um m people that believed that
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[jim_gottstein]: i that i was a lawyer said that i would never be able to practice
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[jim_gottstein]: law again and and when i told him i'd gone to harvard law school uh
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[jim_gottstein]: that confirmed that i was delusional cause
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[sean]: m
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[jim_gottstein]: all that stuff is verifiable anyway i locked it they said that i would you
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[jim_gottstein]: know have to be on these drugs for the rest of my life i was
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[jim_gottstein]: put on mellarel i said i don't want thorazine and they said oh this is
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[jim_gottstein]: meller it's nothing like thorazine course it's exactly like thorazine and but i really looked
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[jim_gottstein]: into a psychiatrist who said that i just gotten into a situation where i didn't
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[jim_gottstein]: get sleep that i could learn to deal with that and get on with my
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[jim_gottstein]: life and so i feel like i was extremely lucky to have escaped a career
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[jim_gottstein]: as a mental patient for the rest of my life and and that really changed
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[jim_gottstein]: changed a lot of you know the way i thought about the world but so
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[jim_gottstein]: that's really what triggered my um psychiatric um advocacy although i had actually was in
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[jim_gottstein]: the middle of doing this law suit against the state of alasca for stealing a
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[jim_gottstein]: million acres of land it had been granted to alaska's mental health program and trust
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[jim_gottstein]: m in any event so that's what did it and then when i read matt
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[jim_gottstein]: in america by robert whittaker in two thousand two um m to me it was
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[jim_gottstein]: a litigation road map on how the challenge forced drugging not simply based on people's
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[jim_gottstein]: you know human rites and inform consent say but that when you're being for struck
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[jim_gottstein]: you don't get any you now any consent your consent is taken away from you
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[jim_gottstein]: and but based on the idea that it was it's not in people's best interest
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[jim_gottstein]: so i contacted him i got him to send me all all the research that
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[jim_gottstein]: he cited and it's on pychrites dot or the law project for psychiatric right website
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[jim_gottstein]: all of the actual studies that he cited in mat in america and so that's
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[jim_gottstein]: i had pretty much known what the story was with the drugs before but i
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[jim_gottstein]: didn't think i had had anything particular to contribute to the effort against the four
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[jim_gottstein]: struggling but with reading that in america i felt that i did
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[sean]: so you mentioned that i mean the way that you view it is that you
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[sean]: got lucky
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[jim_gottstein]: m
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[sean]: and
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[jim_gottstein]: my
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[sean]: that's sad for me to hear because when we're talking about a health
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[jim_gottstein]: hm
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[sean]: care profession we shouldn't look at things in terms of being lucky to get somebody
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[sean]: he was actually ethical
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[jim_gottstein]: m
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[sean]: and scientific so bottom line here is that you were sleep deprived and exhibiting symptoms
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[sean]: associated with sleep
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[jim_gottstein]: yeah
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[sean]: deprivation you were when you were admitted into the impatient hospital exact symptoms that you
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[sean]: were presenting with were labeled as a mental illness and and that mental less itself
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[sean]: will require a certain drug for the rest of your life and you're labeled as
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[sean]: mentally ill and if you're mentally ill well then you're disabled and you're unable then
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[sean]: to produce in society or re engage in your profession as you up to that
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[sean]: point we're able to successfully do
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[jim_gottstein]: right and that's what happens to the vast majority of people that get get hauled
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[jim_gottstein]: in to the system as they their lives are ruined and in fact that's what
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[jim_gottstein]: happened to bill bigley and as i write in my book he he was two
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[jim_gottstein]: months older than me and he got hauled into a p the alaska psychiatric institute
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[jim_gottstein]: two years before i was and he was just slammed with hal do m he
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[jim_gottstein]: didn't have my you know social privileges he was a little tiny alaska native but
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[jim_gottstein]: his his psychiatrist at the hospital was the same as the one that saved my
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[jim_gottstein]: life his name was robert albert and he was really an incredible guy and the
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[jim_gottstein]: discharge notes on on that first admission was that his prognosis was guarded depending on
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[jim_gottstein]: how he was helped to deal with this divorce that he had and is now
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[jim_gottstein]: losing his dog ers and being saddled with support payments he couldn't handle which is
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[jim_gottstein]: what really brought him in and of course he wasn't given any help with that
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[jim_gottstein]: he was co operative and took the drugs m and he was discharged came back
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[jim_gottstein]: i think the third time he started refusing and so then they started forcing him
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[jim_gottstein]: and by the time i met him in you know in early december two thousand
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[jim_gottstein]: six he'd been hospital it's over about seventy times and his life had just been
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[jim_gottstein]: ruined and you know i think they're for the grace of god go frankly
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[sean]: m
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[jim_gottstein]: anyone really
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[sean]: so jim i got a question when you were in two thousand two when you
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[sean]: had that lack of sleep what what law were you practicing
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[jim_gottstein]: night
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[sean]: at the time
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[jim_gottstein]: in age
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[sean]: i'm sorry what law were you focused on at that time
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[jim_gottstein]: it was basically business law my
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[sean]: okay
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[jim_gottstein]: family business law basically
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[sean]: it so
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[jim_gottstein]: i had yeah
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[sean]: yeah
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[jim_gottstein]: and i actually was doing this middle health trust case but i had to give
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[jim_gottstein]: it up at the time
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[sean]: yeah so it's interesting this profound experience that could have went you know a different
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[sean]: direction and really negatively impacted your life actually inspires you to go down a path
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[sean]: and dedicate your career to advocate for those who are would be placed in similar
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[sean]: positions now the books i press the papers is a fascinating account of a lot
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[sean]: of details around the legal system the power of big farm and how we as
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[sean]: individuals consumers our best interests are not always taken into account united states legal and
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[sean]: health care system now i really do suggest that if you are listening to the
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[sean]: podcast you get the book because you're going to you know you're gonna get lost
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[sean]: into it like i got lost into some of the details i learned so much
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[sean]: about the legal process the law i think well was so riveting for me jim
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[sean]: was your know your thought process each step of the way and what led to
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[sean]: your decision making me as a psychologist just fascinating about some of the moral dilemmas
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[sean]: that were presented but for our listeners ould you just kind of briefly tell us
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[sean]: how you received the theziprexo papers
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[jim_gottstein]: you bet so it was i think november twenty eighth two thousand six and i
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[jim_gottstein]: got this call out of the blue from this dr david eagle man who is
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[jim_gottstein]: an expert witness in this massive litigation over zyprixicausing diabetes and other metabolic problems he
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[jim_gottstein]: had access to what's called discovery which in litigation where the parties have to exchange
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[jim_gottstein]: information and that that discovery was placed under a secrecy order that provided that if
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[jim_gottstein]: he was supine in from in another case he had to give eli little notice
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[jim_gottstein]: and a reasonable opportunity to object before he complied with the sabina so he um
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[jim_gottstein]: and he was already working with alex barrenson at the new york times and so
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[jim_gottstein]: and alex had found this report that was posted on our website by dr grace
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[jim_gottstein]: jackson on zyprexa that i had submitted as in a case faith myers case which
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[jim_gottstein]: is as its own interesting story but it's called lands open which is the chemical
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[jim_gottstein]: name for zyprix dubious danger drug dubious efficacy or something like that so anyway alex
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[jim_gottstein]: found it he told dr eagle man well maybe you should call this gaston guy
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[jim_gottstein]: and see if helsopinayou and so when he finally got around and telling me that's
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[jim_gottstein]: what he was about i said yeah you know i'd be happy to do it
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[jim_gottstein]: and i had my own reasons for doing it and he had his reasons for
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[jim_gottstein]: doing it and so i had to go look for a case and that's where
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[jim_gottstein]: i because you can't you can't just a pin something you've got to have a
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[jim_gottstein]: case to do it so i went looking for bill and that's that was the
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[jim_gottstein]: whole story in itself because in alaska they really keep these m proceedings to if
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[jim_gottstein]: we're going to be radically genuine
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[sean]: m
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[jim_gottstein]: yea i mean psychiatrically imprison people i mean that's really what the involuntary commitment is
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[jim_gottstein]: and but they keep them really secret even though the statute says that the person
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[jim_gottstein]: that the hearing show be open or closed to the public as the respondent just
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[jim_gottstein]: a person being accused of being male shallow left but they never told the person
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[jim_gottstein]: and there was never any case that had been public before i started taking these
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[jim_gottstein]: cases anyway so i found bill and i was accused of ambulance jason that but
18:29
[jim_gottstein]: anyway so
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[sean]: can i stop you there
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[jim_gottstein]: so we
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[sean]: so m i will stop you here and there because there's just like interesting parts
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[sean]: of the story i want to make sure audience gets this you know at this
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[sean]: time are you're you're looking for a case in order for you to legally obtain
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[sean]: the these papers and then to try to protect the public
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[jim_gottstein]: correct
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[sean]: okay um for for
18:54
[jim_gottstein]: right
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[sean]: our audience what is tiprexa
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[jim_gottstein]: so ziprexa i mean it's marketed as a quote a typical anticycotic but i don't
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[jim_gottstein]: like to use that term i use the term neurolyptic which was one of the
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[jim_gottstein]: original terms which means seize the brand which is what it does and basically it
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[jim_gottstein]: blocked seventy to ninety per cent of the dopamine in the front lobe and the
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[jim_gottstein]: bays of ganglia and the lymbic system and so i used to think i think
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[jim_gottstein]: of them as chemical straight jackets before i knew more about it but actually their
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[jim_gottstein]: chemical lebotomies because they block the transmission dopmene in the front of low so i
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[jim_gottstein]: could go a little bit more on what happens which but basically the response of
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[jim_gottstein]: the brain to that is because the blockage is to pump out more dopamean for
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[jim_gottstein]: a few weeks and then the brain will grow more dopamen receptors so where they've
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[jim_gottstein]: never found any kind of brain abnormality and people diagnose which getsafrenia or any other
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[jim_gottstein]: you know actual you know what uh described as a quote mental illness once these
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[jim_gottstein]: drugs have been introduced then you do see brain changes and then if someone quits
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[jim_gottstein]: the drug especially abruptly you have this flood of dope a meat causes symptoms which
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[jim_gottstein]: then you know the psychiatrist says see your mental illness is coming back when actually
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[jim_gottstein]: it's the withdrawal from the drug
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[sean]: okay so you know at this time you're you're very educated already at the danger
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[sean]: dangers of these drugs but in order for you to obtain some of this information
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[sean]: that's under a protective privacy order you have to sapin these papers for a case
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[sean]: that you're on which you don't have at this point
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[jim_gottstein]: right so i you know i talked to bill and i knew that zyprexa was
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[jim_gottstein]: use pretty extensively at the hospital at that time and i asked him you know
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[jim_gottstein]: you know you on you know been given ziprexa and he never really gave me
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[jim_gottstein]: a clear answer and but i was pretty sure he had been and i mean
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[jim_gottstein]: that led to problems later and so i supped you know so yeah you have
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[jim_gottstein]: to have a reason and so the point was is that and in the mayor's
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[jim_gottstein]: case which i had i mentioned before the with the great jackson report i had
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[jim_gottstein]: one this alaska supreme court decision that said um m the statute says that if
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[jim_gottstein]: the person is incompetent to decline the medication and the hospital gets to do whatever
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[jim_gottstein]: they want i went and i said no they can't do that they've got to
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[jim_gottstein]: at least prove it's in the person's best interest and there's no less intrusive alternative
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[jim_gottstein]: and so and they agreed with me on that and so so then the legal
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[jim_gottstein]: basis was as well you shouldn't be allowed to drug bill with with these drugs
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[jim_gottstein]: because it's not in the is best interest and here are these secret documents that
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[jim_gottstein]: will show that and so i'm entitled to these docet and to help prove my
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[jim_gottstein]: case that bill should not be drugged against as well
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[sean]: okay what what is the secret information that in this document that can serve the
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[sean]: public
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[jim_gottstein]: well first of all i'm under an injunction not to further disseminate the ziprex paper
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[jim_gottstein]: so i can't really say but but there you know numerous newspaper reports but i
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[jim_gottstein]: can't say that i can really answer your question i mean they caused diabetes and
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[jim_gottstein]: they hid that from the doctors they cause diabetes and they cause other metogolic problems
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[jim_gottstein]: and a pretty high percentage of people do uh significant weight gain and many people
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[jim_gottstein]: would gain a hundred pounds in a year and people that got diabetes got diabetes
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[jim_gottstein]: even if they didn't gain weight and so that's you know that's a deadly thing
23:42
[jim_gottstein]: i mean i tend to say that now tens of thousands of people have been
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[jim_gottstein]: killed by ziprexa but i don't don't know if you know d peter girsha who's
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[jim_gottstein]: one of the now most may be published medical researchers in the world and he
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[jim_gottstein]: calculates that by that time our hundred thousand people have been killed by zitrexa so
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[sean]: wow
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[jim_gottstein]: you know and the fat you know so yeah these are just this is just
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[jim_gottstein]: staggering harm and this was being hidden from the doctors and and so you know
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[jim_gottstein]: i thought maybe the public should be informed of this
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[sean]: absolutely so you're kind of faced with this i'm going to describe it as a
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[sean]: moral dilemma because you have to determine you have to have to protect yourself legally
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[sean]: because any way you distribute this information you potentially could be violating the law and
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[sean]: putting yourself at risk while at the same time you're you have this information that
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[sean]: you know is harmful to hundreds and thousands of people i think at the time
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[sean]: ziprexa was there one of their top selling drugs i think it was like grossing
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[sean]: a billion
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[jim_gottstein]: number one
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[sean]: it was number
25:05
[jim_gottstein]: five
25:05
[sean]: one
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[jim_gottstein]: billion a year
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[sean]: five billion yeahgrossing five billion a year and you have the privilege of having having
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[sean]: this information that demonstrates that people could develop metabolic indra diabetes cardiovascular problem significant waking
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[sean]: people will die from taking this drug so i'm just really interested in kind of
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[sean]: maybe understanding you know what you are going through emotionally at that time how you
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[sean]: came about making the decisions that you did
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[jim_gottstein]: well first off i was determined to do things legally and so my life my
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[jim_gottstein]: position was is that dr eagle man was the one who signed you know on
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[jim_gottstein]: to that secrecy order and he had to follow it and so when i had
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[jim_gottstein]: supped en him he had to give eli lily a reasonable opportunity to object before
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[jim_gottstein]: he gave them to me and i expected that they would object and that i
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[jim_gottstein]: would be in court arguing to the judge in alaska why you know bill bigley
26:16
[jim_gottstein]: was entitled to these documents to defend against being drugged against as well because it
26:22
[jim_gottstein]: showed that it wasn't in his best interest but i there were some you know
26:29
[jim_gottstein]: games played so for example eagle man sent notice to the general council of eli
26:36
[jim_gottstein]: lily figuring it would take a little while to get to the lawyers handling the
26:39
[jim_gottstein]: case and and then there was i maybe get into that later but but when
26:48
[jim_gottstein]: i but once i have the documents as far as i was concerned i was
26:54
[jim_gottstein]: free to distribute them but
26:55
[sean]: because
26:55
[jim_gottstein]: i
26:55
[sean]: you
26:55
[jim_gottstein]: also
26:56
[sean]: hadn't
26:56
[jim_gottstein]: know
26:56
[sean]: signed
26:56
[jim_gottstein]: lily
26:56
[sean]: any
26:56
[jim_gottstein]: you know
26:56
[sean]: document is it because you hadn't signed
26:59
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
26:59
[sean]: any agreement
27:02
[jim_gottstein]: and and they had been and they'd come out from under the secrecy order and
27:09
[sean]: hm
27:09
[jim_gottstein]: so um but i even though lily had been slow i knew that once they
27:16
[jim_gottstein]: got going they would be big and fast so once i found that i had
27:21
[jim_gottstein]: him i got them out fast and i and i got them out i tried
27:25
[jim_gottstein]: to get him out in a way that could not be gotten back and so
27:31
[jim_gottstein]: they ended up and i and i in the book i you know disclose who
27:37
[jim_gottstein]: the people were that got them out on the internet is i think it's called
27:43
[jim_gottstein]: bit torn or tour and it was kind of a precursor to wick leagues
27:47
[sean]: hm
27:47
[jim_gottstein]: um m and so i got him out to them most and i was i
27:54
[jim_gottstein]: would as i was making dvds of these and it was right there you know
28:00
[jim_gottstein]: it's kind of during the christmas rush and anyway i had my i had my
28:05
[jim_gottstein]: music you know rock music going in the background and i had three computers making
28:10
[jim_gottstein]: d v ds um you know addressing envelopes and going out to to the post
28:16
[jim_gottstein]: office putting them in in the mail and and i
28:25
[jim_gottstein]: one of my thoughts was it was kind of amusing i knew it was right
28:28
[jim_gottstein]: in the christmas rush and so it might take weeks for some of these to
28:31
[jim_gottstein]: get somewhere and it did but this was i think on december twelfth two thousand
28:41
[jim_gottstein]: six and the new york times the first article came out on december seventeenth so
28:49
[jim_gottstein]: um in addition to the dvds i had set up what's call and f t
28:55
[jim_gottstein]: p file transfer protocol which is designed to send a lot of files and big
29:02
[jim_gottstein]: files over the internet and that's how will hall who put him out on the
29:09
[jim_gottstein]: internet got him and that's how alex berenson got them as well so
29:19
[jim_gottstein]: anyway that and then that's what happened then course eli lily did get big and
29:25
[jim_gottstein]: fast some it is kind of amazing how they could whistle of federal judges to
29:30
[jim_gottstein]: issue orders against me
29:32
[sean]: yeah i mean this book plays out like a movie so i almost like saw
29:37
[sean]: it in my mind like there's a movie and i think this would be a
29:40
[sean]: great movie do hope somebody
29:42
[jim_gottstein]: i
29:43
[sean]: out there turns this book a movie and one of the things that really stand
29:48
[sean]: stands out is that you know you're i'm thinking about this like the stress that
29:52
[sean]: you're under i already know because you wrote about it that when you're when you
29:57
[sean]: struggle with sleep and can become a problem you really struggle with your your own
30:00
[sean]: mental health and these these eli lilly attorneys are like pit bulls and they don't
30:07
[sean]: sleep like they don't ever sleep because they're they're
30:10
[jim_gottstein]: i
30:10
[sean]: they're emailing you at like three in the morning and two in the morning with
30:14
[sean]: questions but back to the moral dilemma you were facing you had to determine what
30:18
[sean]: is a reasonable amount of time for them to object now that
30:21
[jim_gottstein]: a
30:21
[sean]: seems very arbitrary
30:24
[jim_gottstein]: no that was dr eagle man's call
30:27
[sean]: okay
30:28
[jim_gottstein]: i supine him
30:29
[sean]: right
30:29
[jim_gottstein]: it was his obligato and lily screwed up i mean in all kinds of ways
30:34
[jim_gottstein]: okay
30:38
[jim_gottstein]: so for example the he's supine and someone who supine has a right to object
30:46
[jim_gottstein]: to a spina and then when they object to the spina everything stops so and
30:53
[jim_gottstein]: under this agreement that he signed you know he has to notify lily and then
30:59
[jim_gottstein]: he has to do what lily says so lily should have just directed him to
31:05
[jim_gottstein]: object but they didn't and said i get this call um m i forget when
31:13
[jim_gottstein]: it was it was a couple days after they got out from eielilily got a
31:21
[jim_gottstein]: lawyer in alaska and he called and left it was hanka so i'd gone home
31:26
[jim_gottstein]: a little bit early and so it was late afternoon and he left a voice
31:29
[jim_gottstein]: mail on my my voice mail which i picked up later that night in and
31:35
[jim_gottstein]: so i thought i don't want to seem like and then i immediately tell eagle
31:40
[jim_gottstein]: man dr eagle man they're on to us and so and he decides that they've
31:47
[jim_gottstein]: had a reasonable opportunity to object and so i decide i think i don't want
31:54
[jim_gottstein]: him to think that i'm avoiding him but i don't really want to talk to
31:59
[jim_gottstein]: him right now and so so i call him first thing in the morning at
32:03
[jim_gottstein]: eight in the morning figuring he's not going to be there and that's and i
32:07
[jim_gottstein]: left a message for him and i didn't hear back from him until a couple
32:12
[jim_gottstein]: of days later that friday then i got all these threatening letters from eli lily
32:20
[jim_gottstein]: and then the special discovery master calls and leaves a message to call them over
32:25
[jim_gottstein]: the weekend and then a few hours later you know issues this
32:29
[sean]: oh
32:30
[jim_gottstein]: order saying to return them and not to further disseminate them and i say how
32:37
[jim_gottstein]: do you get to order me about so we're off to the races at that
32:41
[jim_gottstein]: point
32:42
[sean]: yeah and that's for
32:42
[jim_gottstein]: and then
32:42
[sean]: the go ahead
32:44
[jim_gottstein]: and then and the new york times article breaks that i think it was a
32:50
[jim_gottstein]: sunday
32:51
[sean]: and that's where the book really picks off and where the movie will pick off
32:55
[sean]: to i would really love to see the movie because i'm imagining it's the home
32:59
[sean]: alone scene you got your christmas music playing in the background rocket the christmas tree
33:05
[sean]: and you're just burned in d v des and mailing them out right before the
33:07
[sean]: holidays that would be fascinating to see
33:10
[jim_gottstein]: i'm sure it's not really christmas tree but that's the idea
33:15
[sean]: um i do have to i worked in the business field and i worked in
33:19
[sean]: advertising and often we would rely upon a a text study that would provide us
33:26
[sean]: information that would guide us in terms of how we were going to market a
33:30
[sean]: product features benefits and then ultimately what would set our product apart from any other
33:37
[sean]: so in these papers that you identified was there anything that jumped out to you
33:42
[sean]: that ultimately led to this the settlement of the one
33:47
[jim_gottstein]: so
33:47
[sean]: point four million dollars
33:48
[jim_gottstein]: a well i mean there were two parts to it well
33:56
[sean]: yeah
33:58
[jim_gottstein]: the settlement was not well there were two there was a settlement and all of
34:02
[jim_gottstein]: the damage people that sued m and so that was over the damage but then
34:09
[jim_gottstein]: the one that you mentioned the one point four billion with the government that was
34:12
[jim_gottstein]: over basically illegal promotion
34:17
[sean]: hm
34:18
[jim_gottstein]: so m doctors can prescribe any drug that's improved for any use doctors can prescribe
34:26
[jim_gottstein]: for drugs are a proof for specific uses m but doctors can prescribe for any
34:35
[jim_gottstein]: use the drug companies can only promote approved uses and so at that point zyprexa
34:44
[jim_gottstein]: had only been improved for um ople diagnosed with skitzofrenia and maybe by polar disorder
34:52
[jim_gottstein]: by that time and so but they were marketing it to children and they were
35:00
[jim_gottstein]: marketing and this is you know really damaging drug and they were marketing it to
35:05
[jim_gottstein]: the elderly basically in nursing homes i mean what happens is you know people don't
35:11
[jim_gottstein]: like being in those plexcisalot were they complain and you give them ziprexa and they're
35:15
[jim_gottstein]: not able to complain any more they hardly can't even get out of bed and
35:20
[jim_gottstein]: then they die and the you know people say oh well you're your mother was
35:24
[jim_gottstein]: old
35:25
[sean]: so i got a question we
35:26
[jim_gottstein]: and i
35:28
[sean]: we had recently had the discussion with with patrick on on obedience pills about a
35:33
[sean]: d h d medication the medication of children which we all agree you shouldn't really
35:38
[sean]: be happening during this per of time when this market was marketed to children i
35:44
[sean]: listened to another speech of yours i think you were giving a lecture and you
35:47
[sean]: you said at one time uh children would be put into a category and we
35:51
[sean]: would never drug them but between like nineteen ninety five and two thousand five there
35:55
[sean]: was this dramatic change in the approach what was happening during that time
36:01
[jim_gottstein]: well johnson and johnson i mean there was always a d h d and the
36:06
[jim_gottstein]: stimulants that as a pretty significant number of children given the stimulants like riddling or
36:14
[jim_gottstein]: through terror or whatever at or all it causes them to become manic so then
36:20
[jim_gottstein]: they get diagnosed with by polar disorder but there is a psychiatrist at harvard medical
36:24
[jim_gottstein]: school that johnson and johnson he o do a study that said risperdall was safe
36:31
[jim_gottstein]: and effective for the use in children and so he's been attributed to
36:38
[sean]: yeah oh
36:39
[jim_gottstein]: the four forty times increase in the diagnosis of by polar disorder in children in
36:48
[jim_gottstein]: ten years so and there's i mean that was in a different case that where
36:53
[jim_gottstein]: some secret documents got out and there was an email there's all these email exchanges
36:59
[jim_gottstein]: between beaterman and johnson and johnson basically where he says i'm going to do this
37:04
[jim_gottstein]: study and the result is going to be that rispertall should be used in children
37:11
[sean]: but it's interesting at that time so around when you were going through this
37:15
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
37:17
[sean]: and the ziprexa papers were released the new york times article and so forth at
37:22
[sean]: that time i was in the middle
37:22
[jim_gottstein]: oh
37:22
[sean]: of my doctoral program and i was at a placement in community mental health center
37:28
[sean]: and i remember this sichiatrist telling me that if any of my clients who are
37:34
[sean]: prescribed in s s r i exhibit any mania or manic symptoms that would mean
37:43
[sean]: that they are by polar and then the next drug that should be placed to
37:48
[sean]: some neuroleptic
37:49
[jim_gottstein]: to
37:49
[sean]: some form of quote quote mood stabilizer which at the time was ziprecice you know
37:54
[sean]: a lot and i was almost fell off my chair reading your
37:57
[jim_gottstein]: thank
37:57
[sean]: book where this was deliberate on part of the marketing teams two push that information
38:05
[sean]: without any scientific basis knowing that a side effect of s s r s in
38:09
[sean]: a percentage of the population is going to be mania be able to increase the
38:14
[sean]: sale of zy prex
38:16
[jim_gottstein]: i
38:16
[sean]: they hold the physicians many of them primary care physicians who just don't have the
38:22
[sean]: background knowledge or time for full examinations they just inform them that this just means
38:29
[sean]: their bible or you have to add ziprexa
38:32
[jim_gottstein]: yeah and they you know they say oh the and i depressed so called and
38:38
[jim_gottstein]: the present unmasked your diet you know by polar disorder and what's i can't think
38:46
[jim_gottstein]: of his name there is a psychiatrist in also at harvard you know the anti
38:54
[jim_gottstein]: depression is also caused suicideality and you know violence and m and so he did
39:02
[jim_gottstein]: this study where you know well he noticed some patients that they became you know
39:09
[jim_gottstein]: agitated and violent and so he said lynch stopped the drug and then stopped the
39:14
[jim_gottstein]: drug and that that reaction ceased and they said well let's see what happens when
39:21
[jim_gottstein]: we started again and they they started the drug again and that you know symptom
39:26
[jim_gottstein]: re occur and they stopped it and stopped and so you know there's a side
39:30
[jim_gottstein]: that these random is controlled studies are the gold standard but this is called a
39:38
[jim_gottstein]: challenge d challenge re challenge and that's really good evidence and as i
39:43
[sean]: m
39:43
[jim_gottstein]: write in my book they really cook the books on these random ized control trials
39:50
[jim_gottstein]: in order to make their drugs look good
39:55
[sean]: yeah so the question i have right now is after this settlement happened in was
40:02
[sean]: it january of two thousand nine so problem
40:06
[jim_gottstein]: think
40:06
[sean]: has been solved right
40:09
[jim_gottstein]: we uh you know a bunch of states sued lily over the cost of treating
40:19
[jim_gottstein]: diabetes and other metabolic problems they had to pay through their medicate programs in alaska
40:25
[jim_gottstein]: was one of them and it was the first as to go to trial and
40:30
[jim_gottstein]: at that point i thought oolishly that lily was negotiating some kind of settlement with
40:37
[jim_gottstein]: me and i and i mentioned to them you know there's still forcing prex on
40:42
[jim_gottstein]: people
40:43
[sean]: mhm
40:44
[jim_gottstein]: and so then they brought it up in a trial so i was kind of
40:49
[jim_gottstein]: upset with myself on that but um m you know ziprexa is off patent now
40:57
[jim_gottstein]: so lily doesn't really care that much i mean they still saw a lot of
41:02
[jim_gottstein]: it um but it's kind of amazing how they come out with his new drug
41:08
[jim_gottstein]: that's not really any different or any better and probably not as good if they're
41:13
[jim_gottstein]: good at all um and more harmful and they get they get the doctors psychotrists
41:23
[jim_gottstein]: and other prebscribers prescribe the latest drugs that haven't really you know nobody has any
41:29
[jim_gottstein]: really experience and they cost you know a ton of money much more than the
41:34
[jim_gottstein]: older ones they get the doctors to prescribe this stuff
41:40
[sean]: jim i got a i got a question and maybe you can answer it for
41:42
[sean]: me because sometimes i feel like i live on another planet um you know we
41:47
[sean]: have all this information you know i've been seeing a decade like how how the
41:51
[sean]: health of clients who who were diagnosed with serious mental health conditions such as by
41:57
[sean]: polar or skits of frina how you know just declined dramatically and there they're functioning
42:04
[sean]: as really decreased so it's not like we have all this empirical data from strong
42:11
[sean]: clinical trials and we certainly don't have the anecdotal evidence or the observational evidence that
42:15
[sean]: these drugs are highly effective an don't care what the drug is help me get
42:19
[sean]: into the minds of these doctors who keep repeating the same things over and over
42:24
[sean]: again and are able to take this information that from farmasutical sales people and then
42:29
[sean]: continue to make the same mistake the next drug the next drug what is going
42:33
[sean]: on there what's the other side of this
42:35
[jim_gottstein]: so you know i showed this to you i mean i don't know if you
42:39
[jim_gottstein]: can hear it
42:42
[sean]: we can hear
42:42
[jim_gottstein]: he is
42:43
[sean]: oh
42:44
[jim_gottstein]: can you see that is that backwards
42:48
[sean]: no we can
42:48
[jim_gottstein]: anyway
42:48
[sean]: see it it's it's lucy you're holding up a shirt of lucy from the peanuts
42:54
[sean]: psychiatric help the doctor was
42:58
[jim_gottstein]: fold are complacent
42:59
[sean]: fooled or complacent
43:00
[jim_gottstein]: oh
43:00
[sean]: for our listeners that can't
43:01
[jim_gottstein]: and
43:02
[sean]: speak
43:04
[jim_gottstein]: and and i haven't you know i try not to attribute bad motives to people
43:12
[jim_gottstein]: and you know it seems like these people want to help so you know maybe
43:18
[jim_gottstein]: they're full but at this point the evidence is just overwhelming about how harmful these
43:26
[jim_gottstein]: drugs are how counter productive they are i mean there's m it's pretty clear that
43:36
[jim_gottstein]: people that present with a first time psychosis if you take the different approach like
43:43
[jim_gottstein]: the soteria approach or open dialogue approach that you can get and really avoid the
43:50
[jim_gottstein]: use of neuroleptics if at all possible you can get an eighty per cent recovery
43:56
[jim_gottstein]: rate okay we have a five percent recovery rate and and i rely heavily on
44:05
[jim_gottstein]: robert whittaker's work and he m and one of one of the grass he has
44:11
[jim_gottstein]: is at the rate of disability on a per capita basis because of mental illness
44:18
[jim_gottstein]: where mental illness is you know attributed as the cause of disability has gone up
44:25
[jim_gottstein]: eight times since the introduction of the so called miracle drug thorizine in the midnighteen
44:31
[jim_gottstein]: fifties
44:31
[sean]: ah
44:32
[jim_gottstein]: and so we have this evidence and then there's it's there's this studied by harold
44:41
[jim_gottstein]: and job that that shows that people who have been on the neuralyptics for a
44:47
[jim_gottstein]: while and then get off of them have a forty percent chance of recovering so
44:53
[jim_gottstein]: that's eight times better than the five per cent it's half of what what it
44:58
[jim_gottstein]: would be if we avoided him in the first place and m know so why
45:07
[jim_gottstein]: is this allowed to happen i mean i think you know you just have to
45:11
[jim_gottstein]: say it's the money um you know there's just so much money and but why
45:17
[jim_gottstein]: the doctors go along with it
45:22
[jim_gottstein]: you know i don't know i mean it's you could say it's kind of a
45:26
[jim_gottstein]: massed illusion i mean like you know i mentioned dr grace jackson and she was
45:32
[jim_gottstein]: a navy sychactrist paths and she'd been trained the way they all have m and
45:38
[jim_gottstein]: she was treating patients and she saw that they weren't wasn't helping you so then
45:44
[jim_gottstein]: she looked into it and you know and discovered the truth about it and so
45:49
[jim_gottstein]: she she refused to do it what she got drummed out of the navy almost
45:54
[jim_gottstein]: lost her license to practice law and i think she had defiled bankruptcy at one
46:00
[jim_gottstein]: point and so one other little anecdote so after i read matt in american two
46:09
[jim_gottstein]: thousand two i brought i actually brought bob whittaker robert whitaker up to alaska and
46:14
[jim_gottstein]: one of these things i got him to do go have a talk at the
46:18
[jim_gottstein]: alaska psychiatric institute you know they had psychiatrists and other staff members an even psychitist
46:25
[jim_gottstein]: from the community come in and he gave his talk and i would say the
46:30
[jim_gottstein]: kind of feeling in the room was well even if we agree with what you
46:35
[jim_gottstein]: say and we kind of do we wouldn't be allowed to do what you suggest
46:41
[sean]: oh
46:42
[jim_gottstein]: and so it's not the way doctors are supposed to be but that's the way
46:49
[jim_gottstein]: they are i mean society has this idea you know that they need to drug
46:55
[jim_gottstein]: these people to keep them from getting killed in there you know when they're sleep
47:01
[jim_gottstein]: when the truth is when you look at all these mass shootings i mean everybody
47:05
[jim_gottstein]: wants to blame mental is we need to do more mental health treatment at virtually
47:12
[jim_gottstein]: all of them we're on psyche drugs and often the anidepressens you know it's not
47:19
[jim_gottstein]: a large number of people that are that become violent um m when you have
47:26
[jim_gottstein]: tens of millions of people on them a small a small number who you know
47:31
[jim_gottstein]: become homicidal results in what we're seeing
47:35
[sean]: yeah jim i think this podcast episode is so important because history matters and so
47:42
[sean]: we're sitting here nd we're in twenty twenty two all this happened you know around
47:46
[sean]: two thousand six two thousand seven you know was in the the national media it
47:53
[sean]: was something that was certainly part of our discourse but here we are
47:58
[jim_gottstein]: i
47:58
[sean]: in twenty twenty two and there's still people being prescribed ziprexaand patients and families they
48:06
[sean]: do not receive informed consent i'm just goin t give you a quick
48:08
[jim_gottstein]: oh
48:08
[sean]: story because i got permission from a client who i just previously conducted in evaluation
48:14
[sean]: on and these type of situations are all too familiar started episode started with having
48:21
[sean]: covid post covid had about thirteen days straight of a horrible migraine and this particular
48:29
[sean]: person was placed on daily steroids i v steroids with a side effect
48:36
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
48:36
[sean]: of that being mania so she was getting ivystheroids going in to hospitals days after
48:45
[sean]: days also taking some oral steroids and additionally was smoking marawana throughout today to try
48:53
[sean]: to alleviate the pain and then she went into a manic episode and the manic
48:57
[sean]: episode was severe and it required it required hospitalization and she was told she has
49:05
[sean]: by pole or one disorder it's in a manic episode and was prescribed iprexo amongst
49:10
[sean]: other drugs so it's usually not just one drug someone's prescribed it's multiple and it's
49:17
[sean]: the interaction between the drugs it's providing a la able without addressing the
49:22
[jim_gottstein]: a
49:22
[sean]: cause so it's very clear that there's a high percentage of people that are prone
49:28
[sean]: to going into manic episodes from being that steroid but yet she's now labelled with
49:33
[sean]: by polar one disorder and it's an illness that she has to manage for the
49:37
[sean]: rest of
49:37
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
49:37
[sean]: her life and she's going to be placed on a drug a drug that creates
49:41
[sean]: metabolic cyndrum a significant side effects and then you're interacting it with other drugs that
49:46
[sean]: haven't been adequately studied she's labelled with a with a psychiatric diagnosis you can't test
49:51
[sean]: for it's really the opinion of a psychiatrist which was a sidin't at the time
49:56
[sean]: and she just feels absolutely horrible and people don't have this information they assume these
50:03
[sean]: psychiatric diagnosis are valid they're reliable in what we have we have safe and effective
50:09
[sean]: drugs to treat them and that's how
50:11
[jim_gottstein]: i
50:11
[sean]: the doctors communicate
50:14
[jim_gottstein]: they don't they don't tell i mean each drug comes with what's called a label
50:20
[jim_gottstein]: which has now all these information on the drugs and for example ziprexyouknow we'll say
50:32
[jim_gottstein]: you know we'll have that on there and i one and the drug companies really
50:39
[jim_gottstein]: negotiate with the f d a to try and minimize you know the negative aspects
50:44
[jim_gottstein]: of that in one of my cross examinations of doctrine a bill bigger cases i
50:51
[jim_gottstein]: asked him about well doesn't it say here that direct it causes or whatever drug
50:57
[jim_gottstein]: it was is probably rispidoff causes psychosis it says that right on the label that
51:02
[jim_gottstein]: respertall causes psychosis it's supposed to be the treatment for psychosis but it causes it
51:07
[jim_gottstein]: and so he says oh you know that's the lawyers just made them do that
51:13
[jim_gottstein]: you know i don't
51:13
[sean]: m
51:13
[jim_gottstein]: pay any attention to that
51:15
[sean]: yeah
51:15
[jim_gottstein]: and now and it's like dr joanna montre just came out with us study that
51:22
[jim_gottstein]: the andssriande presence that there's well that there's no evidence that the pressure is caused
51:31
[jim_gottstein]: by chemical unbalance and the thing about that you know it got a lot of
51:37
[jim_gottstein]: play i mean national media and so it's like oh now this is out there
51:43
[jim_gottstein]: and but we've known about that for twenty years the m and d ronald pies
51:51
[jim_gottstein]: who was the head of the american psychiatric association as we never told people there
51:56
[jim_gottstein]: was a chemical in balance well i heard someone last week who was told that
52:00
[jim_gottstein]: they had a chemical in balance so m yeh i mean it's so important for
52:09
[jim_gottstein]: the public to know this stuff and it's so hard to get them to know
52:12
[jim_gottstein]: it and that's you know why i wrote you know the book is you know
52:18
[jim_gottstein]: i i think it could be impactful if i if it got enough m you
52:24
[jim_gottstein]: play in the in the general public which it hasn't really
52:29
[sean]: so jim when it comes to protecting the public since you brought up the f
52:32
[sean]: d a isn't the f d a there to protect the safety and welfare of
52:36
[sean]: the public
52:39
[jim_gottstein]: i think it's fair to say that the f d is captured by the industry
52:43
[jim_gottstein]: i mean there's this revolving door between the f d a and farmer cuitical companies
52:48
[jim_gottstein]: um m i think it was in nineteen ninety two sometimes in the nineteen nineties
52:53
[jim_gottstein]: congress changed the way the f d a was financed so basically the f d
52:58
[jim_gottstein]: is financed by the drug companies
53:01
[sean]: ah
53:01
[jim_gottstein]: so the fat charges drug companies you know for the approval of their drugs so
53:08
[jim_gottstein]: the drug company s paid for the approval of of their drugs and they get
53:12
[jim_gottstein]: the approval of their drugs i mean um m
53:17
[sean]: so jim
53:17
[jim_gottstein]: that is not rely
53:19
[sean]: i've got a
53:19
[jim_gottstein]: on
53:19
[sean]: question
53:19
[jim_gottstein]: the f d a
53:21
[sean]: jim do you recall what happened the very same day that the one point four
53:25
[sean]: billion dollar fetal federal settlement regarding zaprexo was announced with the f d a d
53:29
[sean]: you remember what happened that same day
53:34
[jim_gottstein]: tell
53:34
[sean]: i'll
53:35
[jim_gottstein]: me
53:35
[sean]: read it to you because i found this most interesting is on that very same
53:39
[sean]: day the f d a issued guidance permitting farmersutical companies to buy past the prohibition
53:45
[sean]: of marketing off lay uses of drugs allowing them to pass out medical journal articles
53:51
[sean]: that discussed these non approved uses so that was their way around marketing it was
53:57
[sean]: to have medical journals do the work for them and have it distributed to
54:01
[jim_gottstein]: that
54:01
[sean]: the doctors
54:03
[jim_gottstein]: and that's another scandal is the whole medical research literature a very large percentage oh
54:11
[jim_gottstein]: medical journal articles are ghost written by the drug companies and course the trials are
54:17
[jim_gottstein]: all paid by the drug companies
54:19
[sean]: yeah
54:19
[jim_gottstein]: used to be universities would conduct you know these drug tries not any more they
54:25
[jim_gottstein]: have what they call contract research organizations do these studies and you know if you
54:34
[jim_gottstein]: want to get the next contract you know this contract better come out with the
54:37
[jim_gottstein]: result that the drug company wants and m and then they pay these key opinion
54:45
[jim_gottstein]: leaders put their name on the articles and they don't even allow these so called
54:53
[jim_gottstein]: authors access to the data
54:55
[sean]: hm
54:58
[jim_gottstein]: i mean fundamentally i don't think health care should be a profit driven enterprise because
55:06
[jim_gottstein]: it brings in all this stuff its corruption
55:10
[sean]: yeah so unfortunate the way that i started to think about things as we have
55:14
[sean]: to educate the next generation and for us here out of practice we develop some
55:19
[sean]: guidelines around the actual safety and efficacy of antidepressence because they're just astronomical the rise
55:25
[sean]: and anti depressing that are just being handed out to developing teen agers and young
55:29
[sean]: people despite all the risks it's almost like as as if it's candy you know
55:34
[sean]: it as it has no risks and these parents are actually you know scared to
55:42
[sean]: not except the medical recommendations or the medical advice of their practitioners so we have
55:47
[sean]: this we have this system of an expert culture here in the united states where
55:53
[sean]: we rely so much on on doctors opinions the doctors have become nothing more than
56:00
[sean]: legalized drug dealers in our in our health care systems and this has to be
56:06
[sean]: a grass roots effort where we can just be able to openly discuss scientific findings
56:13
[sean]: and risks and benefits and that's what is most concerning about where we are in
56:19
[sean]: the united states culture
56:20
[jim_gottstein]: that
56:21
[sean]: is there's a there's a limitation that's really placed on our ability to freely have
56:26
[sean]: these conversations and there's where its like misinformation being thrown out or conspiracy theory this
56:34
[sean]: feels like a reasonable
56:35
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
56:35
[sean]: conversation based on actual evidence but if you engage in with the greater public through
56:40
[sean]: social media or you talk to just people and your your friend group or you
56:44
[sean]: know that you saw alive with they kind of look at you like you're like
56:47
[sean]: you're crazy by talking about this my brother is right here we've had so many
56:51
[sean]: early podcasts he thought a lot of the things that i was talking about regarding
56:54
[sean]: the impact of the farmsutical industry and how we think of what is
56:57
[jim_gottstein]: do
56:57
[sean]: safe and what is healthy you thought i was crazy i was making most of
57:00
[sean]: it up i mean i still tink you're crazy about a lot of things but
57:04
[sean]: i believe these to be accurate nowyeahand so the question is dedicated your our adult
57:11
[sean]: life to this gym you know through your our advocacy through the law project for
57:15
[sean]: psychiatric rights how do we begin to make changes obviously needs to be a grass
57:23
[sean]: roots effort that requires you know so many stay holders to be able to have
57:27
[sean]: open dialogue and conversations but parmasutical industry is powerful so powerful how do we even
57:35
[sean]: begin to make changes and get this information out
57:39
[jim_gottstein]: so no i mean that's something that i've tried to work out for twenty years
57:47
[jim_gottstein]: and i you know i don't know if you watch the video there's a video
57:50
[jim_gottstein]: where i talk about um m now how i see changing the system the mental
57:58
[jim_gottstein]: health system or i call the illness system and of course the most important thing
58:05
[jim_gottstein]: is changing public attitudes and how do you break through i mean i remember when
58:13
[jim_gottstein]: they first said we got it we got to stop trump on twitter and as
58:20
[jim_gottstein]: much as you know you know trump is you know so totally bad news to
58:27
[jim_gottstein]: me it was like you know this is a slippery slope and i'm not a
58:31
[jim_gottstein]: slippery slope kind of guy i mean normally when people make that argument yeah but
58:37
[jim_gottstein]: this one has proven to be true and there's so much censorship going on now
58:43
[jim_gottstein]: i mean i've got these videos on you tube and i started to get concerned
58:49
[jim_gottstein]: that they'll be taken down at some point i mean alex berenson is a perfect
58:54
[jim_gottstein]: example um and there are all these other people if you don't these days if
59:00
[jim_gottstein]: you don't go along with you know the authorities and you know then you're doing
59:07
[jim_gottstein]: miss information and you should be stopped rum discussion it's like now you know nobody
59:17
[jim_gottstein]: believes in the first amendment anymore and that's not the way you know to deal
59:24
[jim_gottstein]: with this stuff and i wish i had an answer now i have a policy
59:31
[jim_gottstein]: and i for twenty years of accepting every speaking invitation that i can you know
59:37
[jim_gottstein]: i'm pretty open about my stuff and i write stuff and you know in a
59:40
[jim_gottstein]: lot of ways the internet you know is kind of an equalizer i mean i
59:48
[jim_gottstein]: put stuff out and people find it but not enough people i can't say anything
59:54
[jim_gottstein]: i've done is gone quote viral and i i i don't have a good answer
1:00:00
[jim_gottstein]: for that other than i don't really i mean i do what i can and
1:00:07
[jim_gottstein]: but i wouldn't say it's been successful and in a lot of ways i think
1:00:11
[jim_gottstein]: things are getting worse
1:00:13
[sean]: jim and we'll do what we can to in terms of sharing links to purchase
1:00:18
[sean]: your book through amazon and also directing our listeners to go to your website your
1:00:22
[sean]: law project for psychiatric rights a a psyche writes um uh is it psycerites dot
1:00:28
[sean]: com
1:00:33
[jim_gottstein]: pyrites dot org
1:00:34
[sean]: dot or okay thank you for correcting me pycherites dot or anybody listening go down
1:00:38
[sean]: to the show summary there's direct links there i did go to that destination i
1:00:42
[sean]: found a lot of your lectures and your your interviews there's a lot of of
1:00:46
[sean]: content there for anybody who wants to to hear some of your speaking engagements and
1:00:51
[sean]: a bunch of other people as well so it's it's right for information one of
1:00:56
[sean]: the things that i want add i mean there's been a new law that was
1:01:00
[sean]: passed in i think it was california as it passed already think it's i think
1:01:04
[sean]: it's a proposal a proposal because i've seen some push back from doctors good and
1:01:09
[sean]: and the specifics around that were you know it gives the state of california authority
1:01:15
[sean]: to remove the license of a medical professional if they believe there spreading misinformation and
1:01:22
[sean]: that's obviously extremely extremely concerning because one of the things that we know is what
1:01:28
[sean]: is believed to be established scientific fact at any given tie i'm certainly could be
1:01:35
[sean]: nothing more
1:01:36
[jim_gottstein]: yeah
1:01:36
[sean]: than just propaganda and i think when where i look at it is like right
1:01:41
[sean]: now people still accept the efficacy of the chemical balance theory and that the anti
1:01:49
[sean]: depressence work and they work by correcting and underlying chemical and balance and so that
1:01:55
[sean]: people believe that's established science ten you could lose your license for having conversations just
1:02:01
[sean]: like this and science is a process it's an open process that includes free speech
1:02:08
[sean]: and the ability to examine data makes sense of it create new studies it's constantly
1:02:15
[sean]: evolving and that's what i think makes a free society is your ability to be
1:02:19
[sean]: able to continue to test evelop hypothesis gather information and really respect everyone's individual rights
1:02:30
[sean]: so for our listeners in california that is a b two zero nine eight and
1:02:36
[sean]: i believe gavin newsom has three weeks to sign the bill but he has yet
1:02:41
[sean]: to take a public position on it and i think that was as of yesterday
1:02:45
[sean]: which would be august dangerous first
1:02:50
[jim_gottstein]: really dangerous
1:02:54
[sean]: all right so we really took a lot of your time jim before we conclude
1:03:00
[sean]: right now are you hanging out there on the island of maui you partially retired
1:03:06
[sean]: at this this stage in the game
1:03:09
[jim_gottstein]: so pretty much i think i did my last litigation h a week or so
1:03:19
[jim_gottstein]: ago but i'm although there's one type of case that i would come out of
1:03:24
[jim_gottstein]: retirement to do which is a medicated fraud case against the psychiatric drugging of children
1:03:31
[jim_gottstein]: in youth and there's information about that on pychridestrata we could talk about it um
1:03:38
[jim_gottstein]: m but i think that's potentially he most effective way to stop the drugging of
1:03:44
[jim_gottstein]: children but other than that i think i'm done with litigation but i'm really involved
1:03:49
[jim_gottstein]: in trying to m bring about alternatives to the current paradime and so there was
1:03:58
[jim_gottstein]: this last october the five october last last year it was this international pure respite
1:04:07
[jim_gottstein]: and soteria summit where seven hundred and fifty people from forty countries came together over
1:04:14
[jim_gottstein]: you know zoomicors and had really great presentations and discussion about these alternative you know
1:04:21
[jim_gottstein]: the ones why i'm talking about that get eighty per cent recovery rates things like
1:04:25
[jim_gottstein]: that and and i've gotten really involved on kind of the you know trying to
1:04:32
[jim_gottstein]: designated the person to try and do it to create more of these pure respites
1:04:39
[jim_gottstein]: and soteriahouses around the world to get people people have those choices and as a
1:04:46
[jim_gottstein]: legal matter people have the right to the least restrictive in terms of psychiatric imprisonment
1:04:53
[jim_gottstein]: and the least intrusive alternative with respect for drugging m so it's really important to
1:05:00
[jim_gottstein]: have these alternatives available so i'm i'm working really hard on that and i'm on
1:05:04
[jim_gottstein]: the board of for about a year and a little over mind freedom international and
1:05:10
[jim_gottstein]: there actually heading this summit thing but they also have this program called the mind
1:05:16
[jim_gottstein]: freedom shield when people are being faced or threatened with psychiatric imprisonment or for drugging
1:05:24
[jim_gottstein]: they can ask for this alert to go out and have people really come together
1:05:31
[jim_gottstein]: and put pressure to try and get that stopped and it's hard now some success
1:05:37
[jim_gottstein]: is not always successful but i really support that effort and so i am on
1:05:44
[jim_gottstein]: may i'm not on vacation
1:06:48
[sean]: has been a powerful force in being able to protect the rights of those who
1:06:54
[sean]: have been identified as psycheatrically or medically ill but more and more importantly he's taken
1:07:00
[sean]: his own personal risks to be able to share information to be able to protect
1:07:05
[sean]: the public and i think that's where we're at as a radically genuine podcast and
1:07:09
[sean]: trying to support a movement where there is open dialogue and there's discussion where people
1:07:15
[sean]: can make the best informed decisions for their own health regardless of whether it's psychiatric
1:07:20
[sean]: drugs i mean we've talked about this shown with with the covid response and mandation
1:07:25
[sean]: of vaccines and so forth it really is a human rights issue so on a
1:07:29
[sean]: podcast that wants to have these radically genuine conversations you know were deeply appreciative for
1:07:34
[sean]: having god stein as a guest jim thank you so much for joining the radically
1:07:38
[sean]: genuine podcast