Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 402: Andor: Season Two

Transcript

Issue 402: Andor: Season Two · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the NED Party.
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: the Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Well, hello, and welcome to TFM and the crossover with
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: the Nerd Party. That's right, we are in the six
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: oh two Club hosting the wonderful podcast Aggressive Negotiations and
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: a friend and who knows, we've actually kind of cleared
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: out some space here in the bar because there may
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: be some aggressive negotiations.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Who knows.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: But I am just one of the hosts, Matthew Rushing,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: and I'm excited that he is with me as he
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: is for all Star Wars podcasts in the six oh
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: two Club, and of course over on Aggressive Negotiations that
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: everybody should be listening to and checking out the wonderful incomparable, John.
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: Mills, Hello, I am here. Hello, yes, well hello there.
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: I'm I'm pleased as punch that we're having this crossover
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: with the six h two Club yet again, no matter
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: how aggressive it might be, but not as happy on
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: a sliding scale about our special guest that's joining us, matt.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: I could not be more excited that K two so
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: has decided to join us on this episode. I mean,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: we got guys, we got him himself. He's here with
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: ceiling space. Okay, exactly exactly. He's so tall, he's so tall.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: And his interpreter, his interpreter, Darren.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: The man behind the droid at times.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Who knew K two was so timid, you know, I
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: mean he doesn't come like that across on screen, but
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: you know in their life, as.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: I can point at that, timid would be quite the mood.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: But really, and there's a fresh one if your mouth
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: off again, and he's ready for John when he mouths
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: off about this show that we're going to talk about,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: which is none other than and Or season two. It
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: is finished and we are finally going to get a
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: chance to talk about it before we do. Find us
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: all over the place wherever you get your podcast, whether
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: you're listening to Aggressive Negotiations or The six O two Club,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: you should be listening to both. So make sure you're
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: subscribed wherever you do get your podcasts, and make sure
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: you're reviewing and rating the show wherever you get your podcasts.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Of course, you can find both shows on x Twitter.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: We've got the six O two Club at the six
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: O two Club and aggressive negotiations at the Jedi Masters.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: You can find both of our networks as well on
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Instagram and Facebook and Twitter or x Twitter or whatever
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: we want to call it. And of course you can
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: find both of the networks online at either track dot
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: fm or the nerd Party dot com. And that's about it.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: We're going to dive into this episode because we have
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: so much to talk about in episodes. Yes, I mean,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: we have twelve episodes in four arcs which all take
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: place during a year before the Battle of Yavin. But
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: before we get there, guys, one of the things that
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: was very interesting is that, you know, we're all big
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Star Wars nerds, and we embrace that wholeheartedly it and
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: we knew that behind the scenes, this show was meant
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: to be a five year show, so every year was
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: meant to be a year, and so every season we
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: were going to be covering an entire year of and
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Or's life as he moved towards Rogue one. Well, they
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: realized doing season one, this show is taking forever for
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: us to actually do because of the way that they
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: were creating it. I would say it's comparable to kind
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: of Game a Throne style seasons where they've this massive
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: production and they realized there was just no way they
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: were going to be able to complete five seasons of
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: this show. I think one of them may have ended
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: up dead. Who knows if it was going to be
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Tony Gilroy or Luna, you know, just from all the workloads.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: So they decided we'll split this this second season twelve episodes,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: so we'll have four three part series. And I wanted
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: to ask you, guys, do you feel like that was
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: the right decision instead of trying to prolong this into
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: you know, five full seasons.
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean it, I don't know if right decision.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: I can I can approach that just because it is
• 5:30
  Speaker 3: what we got. I'd rather, I will say, I'd rather
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: we had twelve episodes covering four years. Then here's season two.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: We still got a couple of years to go, and
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: we're canceled because we ran out of money. Like, I'd
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: much rather they finished the story and do the handoff
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: than then be upset that it was pard down. Now
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: what I have enjoyed, you know, twelve episode seasons times
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: four apps. I would have enjoyed that. I don't know
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: how they would have fit K two in twelve episodes
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: of season five because he's apparently very hard to write
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: about and to insert into the story. But yeah, so
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: I am in account my blessings kind of manner. That's
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: just me.
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: That's fair enough. I think they could have managed to
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: do it. I think that it's simply obstinate for the
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: way any show is approached nowadays, where they're like, oh, well,
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: we couldn't possibly do that. It's like, honestly, it drives
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: me nuts. There's so many different ways you can break
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: it down, and there are so many ways in history
• 6:40
  Speaker 4: where people have put together really high quality shows in
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: reasonable amounts of time, and you know, anyway, but without
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: even going down that road. I mean, you know, you
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: could have done it an even number of ways. But
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: you know Darren's point, Yeah, fine, they chose this way
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: to do it, so you know, like it's just the
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: way that they chose to do it. So it's like,
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: what are you going to do in that case? I mean,
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: do I think that I have the managerial chops who
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: have shown up and shown them how to do it?
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: Quote unquote, Probably not, because that's not an industry that
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: I work in. However, I can also tell you whether
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: I think that you constructed your playbook properly. Even though
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: I've never played football, you know, I can look at
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: the way that the game goes and say, hey, this
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: season seems like maybe you could have approached it differently.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, they're the coaches
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: and they decided how they were going to do it.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I look at it like this.
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: One of the I would say just about any fan
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: of television's frustration these days is that these shows it
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: seems to take forever for them to get made.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: You think about the days when you could create twenty
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: six episodes of television in one season, and somehow you
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: were able to do it, and uh, you know, but
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, I know, you know,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: when you and Or much more than any of the
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: other Disney Plus shows, was made much more organically and
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: and much.
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: More more like a movie than a TV show.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: It's created like a movie. Yeah, And and in that
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: sense again, I think really one of the most comparable
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: shows on television in the last like ten years that
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: you can kind of compare it to was the type
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: of seasons that you know, Game of Thrones was doing,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: where it really it has this expansive feel to it.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: They are truly trying to create a cinema quality episode
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: every every episode, and that is like, you know, we
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: we know the show costs like what six hundred million
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: dollars or something insanely crazy, you know, just for two seasons.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: So I'm I I think I'm right there with you,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Darren in the sense of like, look, if you came
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: to the decision during season one, yeah, there's no way
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: we're going to be able to or at least we
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: don't feel like we could do this for another four years.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Uh and and make this work. I think that this
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: is a great way to do it. And I think
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: especially since you know, the Clone Wars helped prepare so
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: many Star Wars fans for this idea of like art
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: stories in a longer form storytelling, you know, like those
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: later seasons where you're getting these three or four part
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: arcs that all you know, they they subtly connect. But
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: that's what we're doing here.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: Came back to the just nine days if you want
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: to talk about arcs, yes, like, yeah, I can kind
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: of remember arcs resonating in that way.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, what is it? Season six they opened
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: with six episodes all in a row, you know, until
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: they take back Deep Space nine. So, uh no, I
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: think you're you're absolutely right, and this is the you know,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: it's a it was an interesting experience, and and they
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: knew still they were going to lead right into Rogue
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: one and so figuring out then this this idea then
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: of of what it is that you have to cover
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: or what is you were going to cover in that
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: year that's going to be the most important was really
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: really interesting. So, uh the first arc that we get
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: is for bb Y and it has three episodes in it.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: One year later, uh so Grown Atima and then Harvest
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: and the uh each episode arc actually takes place.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I was listening to Gilroy talk about this and he
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: said it takes place around three to four maybe at
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: most five days at a time, and so but they
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: stuck pretty close to the idea that it's about three
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: days span in the year. And so I wanted to
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: just ask you we kicked the season off, you know,
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: we start off really with a bang as and or
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Is is stealing a imperial ship a tie Avenger and yeah,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: which to me, it was a really surprising way to
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: kind of start the season. I did not expect it
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: to start with just this you know, kind of massive
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: action set piece.
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, it starts off with that that heist,
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: and I think the heist is fine. I I like
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: the way they put it together, and that was that
• 11:56
  Speaker 4: was interesting.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you get kind of a you know, mini version
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: of the Aldanni heist where it's but it's one man
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: on an inside job, very kind of Mission Impossible esque,
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: you know, to and and you the money is on
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: the screen like the giant, full built tie avenger, the
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: you know, all of the backgrounds and areas, like you
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: feel it it's interesting. I kind of feel when I
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, I made a couple of notes for this
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: season because there's so much that happens and it's hard
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: to kind of find the chapter mark. So I look
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: at what was the big standout event of each sees
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: of each arc, because you know, it's like, oh, is
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: it the wedding arc or is it the speech arc
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: or things like that, And I think for me, you know,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: for bb Y, you know, yeah, you kick off with
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: the tie fighter stealing, but it's really I think this
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: is the wedding arc. If I had to give it
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: a name, because that's maybe not again, it's not the
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: biggest thing that happens, but you have you know, well,
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: I'm talking to myself in circles, but it's there's lots
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: of things.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I I think I do think Darren though,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: that that there's.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: Dance at the end. That's the that's the climax of
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: the of the city.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: There are three main storylines that are happening, which is
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: you've got this. You're gonna have the storyline with with
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: and Or and stealing the shuttle straight in the ship
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: the tie Avenger, and he's gonna you know, end up
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: on what we'll find out is Yavin before anybody else
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: is there really Uh, You're gonna have the storyline on
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Mina Raw with Bis and Brasso, uh yeah, and and
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: hiding from the Imperial Inspectors that have come looking for legals.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: And then I think he rightly pointed out one of
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: the biggest parts of this story is the follow up
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: to you know, season one with the wedding between you
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: know uh Man Mathma's daughter uh and basically a mob
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: boss's son uh and which she has done, of course
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: to secure funds for the rebellion. And so those are
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: the those are the three main stories, and then interwoven
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: within that you get the story about the ISB being
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: brought into what may or may not need to happen
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: on Gorman, which the Empire wants this cow kite that's
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: in the stratus of the of the planet that it
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: needs for the lenses of the Death Star, and so
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: we get you know, or synchronic and with those four
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: main stories, they interweave all of those, you know, throughout
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: the season. But I do you think that in some ways, Darren,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: what you said, it really does somehow still feel like
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: it's the wedding arc, because that's SU's really.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Hard to say, because as you described it, it is
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: all interwoven. But maybe because it's like the last note,
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: like when you're playing at concerto, in the last note
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: you hang on. Like in my mind, that's Mon losing
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: herself to the dance because she knows her friend is
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: going to die, and like she's now in it. Like
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: I think, yeah, the later we get an episode called
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Rebellion, but she's this is welcome to
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: the Rebellion for her.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well maybe that's a good idea though, So
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: outlining kind of the four stories. We opened up, you know,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: with with Cassie in and stealing the tie Avenger, and
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: then of course you know, he lands on this jungle
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: moon with the most inept parts of the rebellion we've
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: ever seen. Uh, and you know, his whole story really
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: comes about needing to escape and and and try and
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: get back to to mean around not even knowing what's
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: going on there. And so I, I, you know, what,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: did what did you guys think of this storyline? Because
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: whereas his story starts off with a bang, I'm not
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: quite sure that this completely is the most successful arc
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: of the of the season.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: You've already been mad at me about how I felt
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: about this opening arc. So I mean, do we want
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: to retread that here? Do we really want to spoil
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: the lovely time that you and Darren are having so far?
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: I think, I I I definitely feel like because we're
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: not in total disagreement about the fact that I don't.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: Think quite well sir quite well.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: You know, which is which is great because we were
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: miles apart.
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: But it's quite the trade.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: But I okay, I'll open it up then and say, look,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I think that this is the worst part of the
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: season in the sense of I don't think that I
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: really truly understand why we need to kind of set
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: up maybe how disfunctional the rebellion is and the type
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: of people it could. You know, people could gravitate towards
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: it could be completely inept. But these people are so
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: inept it's kind of really hard for me to watch.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: And so I would have appreciated much more if if
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: they hadn't been such idiots, because I make spending any
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: time with them really difficult.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: I agree on that front. I think that this arc
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: is where I knew I was going to have my
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: challenges with the season, because the worst thing you can
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: do for me as an audience member is give me
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: the opportunity enough opportunity to sit there and start nitpicking.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: Like you can take any movie. You could take the
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: greatest five star film. You could take The Godfather, you
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: could take Citizen Kane, you could take Jaws, you could
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: take Shawshank Redemption, and you could start to pick it apart.
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: But the trick is you're so caught up in moving
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: the way they're telling the story that you don't right.
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: So that's the whole thing is like people love to
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: you know, when you start nitpicking stuff. People are like, oh,
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: well you could do that with anything. Well, yeah, that's true.
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: But the trick, it's like, it's a magic trick misdirect me.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: And I don't think this arc misdirected me enough to
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: make me not want to pick it apart and say,
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: there are a hundred ways you could have condensed this,
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: streamlined this, and told it quicker and gotten to the
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: point a lot faster, and brought things together in such
• 19:04
  Speaker 4: a way that it was much more focused. It feels
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: very disjointed. I think that's my biggest problem with this
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: is I get the point, I get what they're trying
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: to do, and they're setting everybody up and oh it's
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: a year blah blah blah ah, all that nonsense. But
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: I was bored in this arc largely, and I was
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: frustrated because of the fact that I was given the
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: time to sit there and say, you know, if you
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: had taken these two parts and found a way to
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: bring it together and streamline it, I would have stayed
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: in it. And it suddenly felt like they were taking
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: their time. And this gets back to that question you
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: opened with Matt. This first arc, I sat there and
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: I said, oh, this comes across like something they didn't
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: know how to condense, like because we, like you said,
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: we all hold on. I'll see Matt's shake his head.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: It's not a visual medium, folks. He starts off by saying,
• 20:03
  Speaker 4: we kind of agree, and now that I'm going into
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: my complaints about it, obviously I'm wrong, but I'll wrap
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: it up by saying, yeah, each of these three episode
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: arcs was supposed to be like a whole season, and
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: what it comes across in this first three episodes for
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: me and at other points during the season, was that
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: there were certain things they weren't willing to streamline, certain
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: things because they wanted each arc to function in a
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: certain way, because there were certain things they would didn't
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: want to let go of. And I just think that
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: there there were a lot of opportunities they missed as
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: a result.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, you could also say, and this, I don't
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: begrudge this for the whole show, because you can you
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: can definitely tell certain three episode chunks work much better
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: than other three episodes us. And so it's like they
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: put themselves in this box, which I mean, you know me,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: I love my constraints, my rules. Okay, we got three
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: episodes it's how we're gonna tell it. It's gonna cover,
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: it's gonna be like twenty four, It's is the most
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: important five days of the year, and everything's gonna happen
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: right now because we don't want to And I prefer
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: that too, like and then a month later title card,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: and then six weeks later a title card, Like I
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: think that would have killed the pacing. But I think, yeah,
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: there are some arcs where it doesn't fit as well.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: It sounds like what you're kind of saying, John, is
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: they don't want to kill their darlings, Like they have
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: so many chess pieces that they need to get moved forward,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: and it's taking us a while to get the board moving,
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: which again I'm a little more lenient on it as
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: I'm just kind of sitting here with popcorn for the ride.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: But I see your point.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think I don't feel that that
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: sense for the overall arc. I only feel that sense
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: for the one storyline, and and.
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: That's but let's pick that apart because because let's let's
• 22:17
  Speaker 5: let's let's let's pick that part, because because previously you
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: were saying, like, really the only part of that arc
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: that you don't like, is you just don't like that
• 22:25
  Speaker 5: the people are that inept?
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: Is that that exactly?
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Because one of the things that really helped, I
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: think was when I was rewatching the season and kind
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: of in some ways realizing that these rebel cells are
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: all a interesting microcosm of the stupid infighting that we've
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: been seeing in the Senate, uh and with the imperial
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: officers jocking for positions and power, right, and and so
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: that that they're still susceptible to many of the same
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: problems that that we've seen, you know, that are actually
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: going to you know, kind of ruin the Empire in
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: the end. I mean some as we get to the
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: last arc, uh, you know, one of the main downfalls
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: of the empire actually becomes an imperial officer's overreached because
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: of her own selfishness and selfish desire, you know, to
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: have the credit for taking down Axis, right, So that's
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: interesting to me. I I what I think I would
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: have been more interested in is that if if both
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: of those cells on Yavin didn't just feel so stupid
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: and actually felt more like they had a legitimate reason
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: to kind of have to butt heads. But they just
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: like truly just come off as like rent A cops
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: that are I mean just awful and so so.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: But just just to pin you down, that's the only
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: issue you have with the arc.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, the rest of this, the storyline on you know Raw,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: I think is phenomenal. I think the storyline for the
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: wedding is exceptional. And I think the storyline that we're
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: setting up with the Empire is fascinating because in some
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: ways it's it's a wonderful mirror for what happened to
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Cassian's planet at the beginning, Like you know, his he's
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: he's from a planet that that was strip mined and
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: ended up being destroyed.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: And so knowing that the Empire is willing to do
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: that again, you know, this time to utilize it even
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: more to their benefit, is just to me really fascinating.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: So again, it's really just this one storyline and and
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: and to me, it's like I just need it to
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: be rewritten a little bit, uh, And I think it
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: would come off better because as Darren mentioned, and I'm
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: the same way, I'm just enjoying being in the to
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: me Season one captured me And I have said this
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: to you before, but I love marinating in the world
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: that they've created and just being there like I. So
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: what they're doing is I don't need it to be
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: sped up. I don't need it to get to the
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: point faster, because the point is actually to just be
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: able to experience the lives of these people.
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying I'm not saying faster. I'm saying that
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: getting things.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: You kept saying that you want to get to the
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: point quicker, and it's like, that's not the point of
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: this show, That's not how they're doing it.
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: That's not the best point of any story. Is what
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: what is the point of any story? Any piece of
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: entertainment that I'm watching make money? Well, there you go, Darren,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: that's exact act, which you can't do on streaming, which
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: is why.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: We to the search for more money, which will be coming.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Like Guy Fleiegmann from Galaxy Quest, I'm just happy to
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: be here. So I will say it was interesting watching
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: the I want to keep saying Harvest like the Harvest Planet.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: I know it's Meana Raile, but Uh. In our other
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: podcast John and I have together when we talk about movies,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: we just covered a lot of UH Tarantino pieces, and
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: we recently did in Glorious bastards, and I got many
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: similarity vibes to the Imperials, you know, wandering through the
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: countryside on their little future tank, you know, inspecting the homestead.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Like it was very, very so like you could see
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: the parallels they were drawing for sure in that with
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: like occupied territory. And I think that's one of the
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: benefits of and Or is the you know, the it's
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: always drawing parallels to history in general and a lot
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: of But I not to half step back onto Cassian's part.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: It kind of felt like they didn't know what to
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: do with him in this in this arc because it's like, Okay,
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: this awesome, you know, get the tie, and then it's like,
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: but we can't have him show up at the planet.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: We haven't spent any time at you know, for a
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: couple of days, because otherwise none of that happens. Like
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: it's almost as if it would be better to have
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: all the men aroused stuff, and we don't see Cassian
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: until like he gets it and then he goes straight
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: to the I'm not saying we have to cut the
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: whole job in part, but it's it's a pacing thing,
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: you know, it's you know, how do you how do
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: you fit him in? And it's it feels it very
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: much feels like he is purposely stuck in a corner
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: with the breaks on, because plot wise, we can't have
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: him show up too early or we have no threat
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: on our other planet, which you know isn't the strongest
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: of writing.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: But well, and I and that's exactly what I'm saying here,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: I think is if you can rewrite that, you can
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: make it make more sense, you can make it feel better,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: and it would have even just again, one of the
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: ways you can do that is what you said, Darren.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: You could actually you could have started the season on
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: mina raw and not really had Cassie and show up
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: until like the end of that first episode, and that
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: the end of the right episode is actually you know,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, oh I do too. But I mean,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like what you're saying is I think
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent correct, And it would have been more
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: interesting then because then you don't feel like that thing
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, we're just it feels like a
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: plot convention, and that's always a frustration when you run
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: into that. And two, it just doesn't help. I don't
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: think that the people he's stuck with just feel so
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: dumb that you're also just frustrated watching them.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean I think the first arc is
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: also hindered. I don't know how you get around it,
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: but it's also hindered by it's very much a groundwork arc,
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: like it is introducing planets and cities and situations. It's
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: the where have our characters been since we last saw them?
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: You know, unless you have the voice over at the
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: beginning of a Clone Wars episode like previously on and
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: or Big Scalen was hiding from the Empire, it's you know, yeah,
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: I want them to s show us that, but that
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: takes time.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: I speaking of you know, Me and Arale and the
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: whole storyline there. You know, a lot has been made
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: of that storyline, especially with the scene between Bis and
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: the Imperial officer who tries to rape her. And so
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: what did you guys think of that story and specifically
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: this incredibly hot topic hot button. I mean, some fans
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: absolutely hated it and thought this didn't belong in Star
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Wars ever and is the worst thing that's ever been
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: seen in Star Wars and others. You know, Yeah, but
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: you could.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: Take that whole paragraph of it shouldn't be in Star
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: Wars and apply it to almost anything. Fans will say
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: almost anything that they hate about Star Wars. No one
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: hates Star Wars more than Star Wars fans.
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: It's true, you know. I mean, the thing is, we've
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: spent so much time on this first R already, I.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Know not to fast forward. I'm thinking the same thing.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: I'm looking at my list and I'm like, I want
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: to talk about this other stuff too.
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: But it's been like thirty minutes, so you know, I mean,
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: you know, it's people are going to feel about the
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: way they feel about it. I think pretty much anybody's
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: reaction to it is just going to be what their
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: reaction is. I think the ludicrous thing is trying to
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: shame anybody out of like, you know, feeling one way
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: or the other about it. All I know is at
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: the end of that, I was like, well, I mean
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: I just recently one of my kids, you know, started
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: watching Star Wars with me. You know, we've been working
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: through Clone Wars, We've watched Rebels together, went to Revenge
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: of the Sith in the movie theater and everything, and
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: there's just no way I can sit down and watch
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: this with my kid, and that's just not old enough
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: to be there. Yeah right, yeah, and that's fine, Okay,
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that you don't have a right to
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: put that in the story or anything like that. But
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: it's just I this is a piece of Star Wars
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: I can't share with her. I mean, previous to that,
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: I don't know that there's anything in the arc that
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: would have really compelled the kid to watch it at all.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: The sense, especially from this first three episode arc, is
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: one of the arguments that goes back and forth continually
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: about Star Wars or any other piece of sci fi
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: or anything like that, is you know what audience is
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: this for those sorts of things. I'm not coming down
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: on either side about it, but this show Out of
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: the Gate winds up feeling like that discussion that's been
• 32:50
  Speaker 4: had about superhero movies at this point, where people feel
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: that superhero movies should be a certain way, or they
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: feel that it should be quote unquote and we have
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: to see what we can break it down to and
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: it's postmodern blah blah blah blah blah. This feels very
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: much like that Snyder verse argument where some people are
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: going to come down hard on superheroes should be this,
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: This is not the way superhero should be. And then
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: for people that it works for, they're going to say, yes, finally,
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: finally we've got superhero movies that really bring that. I
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: would simply offer, I didn't need this to know that
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: the Empire is bad. And I understand that it personalizes
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: it and it gives a motivation and an arc for
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: things that happened later in the season, and it's supposed
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: to add layers to how Cassian feels about certain things.
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: But I didn't need it to know that the Empire
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: was that bad. You know, we're talking about a government
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: that's building a moon sized space station to eradicate entire
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: planets at a time, I sort of am already there thinking,
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: you know, these are not the type of people I'm
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: going to send Christmas cards to. Yeah, and but you know,
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: does it work for somebody to be like, yeah, finally
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: that's in start. Okay, you know, that's that's their opinion.
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: I just I I don't.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: But how do I know evil if I don't see
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: them kill the babies? You know?
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, no, we know, But why did I
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: never get a shot of people on Aldron looking up
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: screaming out in terror as their planet was incinerated.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: All we heard was ben Kenobi talking about a vague
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: feeling that's not enough.
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: So abstract, so abstract.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, I I I fall on the side that
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: I thought that this was completely appropriate for the story.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I think it works for the story. And you know,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I get what you're saying, John, where like the whole
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: question about Star Wars and what's it for? You know,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: I think of what's come out and in the recent
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: past year about the idea of Lucas's own world on
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: you know, his Dark Times story, you know, his Underworld series,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: and talking about how it was going to be much
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: darker and sexier and all those kind of things than
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: anything he had ever done in Star Wars before.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: And so you know, we don't we have no idea
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: what those scripts look like, but you know, just that
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: the fact that that's that's the way that McCallum described them, Okay,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: that's really interesting to me. And and so I also think,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: you know, the the Clone Wars showed that there's a
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: real dark side uh to Star Wars that we've seen
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: play out in that show. I mean, you know, there's
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: a real dark side in in uh you know episode three, Uh,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: you know, so, I mean the movie is very dark,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: so uh. But one argument that I would say, you
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: know too, that the whole scene is, you know, there
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: there is something to be said for seeing the very
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: this role evil. You know, the death of billions on
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: a planet that you just watch destroy that you've never
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: met or whatever. Yeah, that it's very ethereal and we
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: all get that it's bad, but seeing that this is
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: the type of badness that happens all over the Empire
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: is I think really impactful. And I think it makes
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: the evil of the Empire much more personal to all
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: of us in that sense, and so therefore I think
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: it's completely legitimate and valid to be seen. And it
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: works specifically for this story that they're telling, which is
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: all about that evil of the Empire, which you know,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: completely chimes in with the what they're about to do
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: to Gorman and you know, so yeah, I.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: Will say there's also in this arc to kind of
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: wrap it up there, there's also point and deaths any Chark,
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: And I'd say the two that I think of in
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: this one is like your name but his his buddy
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: from Feryx, like oh, Brasso like that was like, again,
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: you want to imagine Brasso like being on Javin and
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: part of the cause is like, Nope, that's as far
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: as he went. And then the other I think of is, uh,
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: you know, it's off screen and it's highly implied, but
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: the take hold and again and or and when I
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: say Android, I mean the series as opposed to Cassian.
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't waste deaths of main characters like
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: they're they're pushing our other characters forward in different ways.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: So on the death meter we got two. I mean,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: there's been more dead, but those are the two I
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: think that stand out for most in this arc.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of love that he became Fredo U
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: to use the Godfather reference. I think I thought that
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: was great.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean the whole wedding arc was just
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: I think phenomenal. And in that sense, I love what
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: it does for one Mathma because it's like there's no
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: going back for her at this point, right the moment
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: that she knows that her friend has been killed, like
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: she's in it completely. There's no returning for her, which
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: is why I thought, you know that the end with
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: that dance where she just is like she kind of
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: breaks with the pressure that she's been under for the
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: last you know, fifteen years of the Empire or fourteen
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: years of the Empire and being in the Senate and
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: now this it's just like it became too much. And
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: so she has this one moment where people aren't gonna
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: look at her too weird if she just like completely
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: loses it, and then she has to pull herself back
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: together for the rest of the season and the rest
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: of these years. And I just thought that was great.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: So okay, well, like you guys mentioned, we've talked a
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: lot about Arc one, and we got Arc two with
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: three B B Y and we really kind of continue
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: the story, especially you know, with with Gorman really comes
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: to a head, uh, the storyline with the Empire, uh,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: and and and kind of making something of the serial
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: arc with him and Drea and a little bit of
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: a closing in I think on even Luthen right, and
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: and some of his machinations kind of backfiring. So uh yeah,
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: where were you guys with three B B Why?
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel it's it's almost easier to talk about
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: the mini the arcs of character in each season versus
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: like what happened in the first episode versus the third episode,
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: because it's all together, like you could almost watch it,
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: you know, as a movie. They're really four movies exactly.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean I loved the bits of Saw
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: we got, you know that I think is like all
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: the parts that Saw's partisan hangout was what I think
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: we wanted from that first arc of like, oh, this
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: is a different rebel group and they're functioning differently and
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: their leaders going off the deep end. But yeah, and
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: I know we'll get there. But for me, this arc
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: culminates with the the art gallery scene where they're trying
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: to get the listening device out and credits there and
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: you know, chewing the scenery like he always does. But yeah,
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: we didn't talk about Cyril and Deirdre very much, although
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: we got some great bits in the first movie I'll
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: say movie, but you know, with his mom and all
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: of that. And I think the thing that I took
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: away the most from three BB I was, Oh, here
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: are these actors playing these characters and they get to
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: jump time. And I know in some interviews they talked
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: about that, like that's a very rare thing. People don't
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: usually get to revisit characters and act as if a
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: lot of time and a lot of events have happened.
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: It's usually like, oh, it's tomorrow. So that was fun
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: to watch all of the way they portrayed that. And yeah,
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: like you said, like Luthen's starting to unravel a bit,
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: and you know, Saws starting to go off the deep end.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: But this one you also really see Claia like step
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: into her own, like she is really taking the reins
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: of Luthian cell I guess we'll call it. But what
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: do you think of this arc? John? Only only way
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: to go up from mark one?
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: So yeah, it's fine. I still you know, I wasn't
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: nuts for it. I mean, I'll never throw shade toward
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: Forrest Whittaker. Saugerera love him in the role. I think
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: he's great. I often wished I'd had more of him
• 42:12
  Speaker 4: because he was truly interesting. You know. It's not it's
• 42:18
  Speaker 4: not like I hate the arc, but it's Yeah, it
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: didn't light me on fire. It it's fine, you know,
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: That's basically how I felt about it.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I really enjoy this arc, specifically because
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: you know, John, you and I talked a lot about
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: what in the world, you know, when we did our
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: watch through all the episodes like the serial thing, this
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: has got to go somewhere, right, and to actually see
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: them make something of that. And what was most interesting
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: I think was to watch him and Deirdred probably the
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: weirdest relationship ever on screen and Star Wars and and
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: partially just her. I mean, she's truly kind of psychopathic,
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: uh you know, the forgive me forgetting forgetting the actress's name.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: But she talked about this idea of she studied psychopaths
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: and and female psychopaths. She said specifically most often don't
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: actually do their own murders or terrible things. They actually
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: weave other people into their web that do it for them.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: And so it was fascinating to watch her kind of
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: basically do that with Cyril. So they have the world's
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: most twisted relationship that you've ever seen, right, Like he's
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: getting everything that he wants from her, but at the
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: same time, she's using him the whole time, you know.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: And and so I thought I really appreciated that we
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: finally we really made something of that character because I
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: think it helps even the season one rewatch and and
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: and like you were mentioning Darren, you know, and and John,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: like it's fascinating to kind of see, you know, Saul
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Guerrera who we we we kind of see his own descent,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: you know, in in many ways, Uh, there's this there's
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: this weird mirroring that happens between him and Luthen, as
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: in throughout this series, they're both kind of going to
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: descend into their worst angels of their nature, right, which
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: is going to end up destroying them in the end. Right,
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: Saul will live on into Row one, but Luthan will
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: meet his end by the series. And and part of
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: that is because he can't change, you know, and neither consult.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: But he knew that from the beginning. I mean, one
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: of the greatest sketches from season one is Luthen's you know,
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: I'll I'm paraphrasing slightly because I don't remember it exactly,
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: but it's basically, you know, I worked towards the sunrise.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: I know I'll never see you know. And yeah, and
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: in a way, like we all knew that, like we
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: all knew Luthen was not going to live past this season.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: It would it would betray his character to be like Okay, Luthen, yay,
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: come hunker down, You're gonna make it to Hof, It's
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: like why he he barely would survive on Yavin. He's
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: and I like how they kind of get into that
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: where it's like he's building and sacrificing, but even within
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: the rebellion, there's no place for him outside of his
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: es cell on Coruscant.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because in some ways this whole arc really
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: feels like a lecare story and in that you know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: he's the spy Master who you know, he has to
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: be in control of everything. So no, I completely agree
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: with you, Darren. And lastly, just were for this arc.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: One of the big things that happens is, you know
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Bix has been struggling obviously with her trauma because of
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Doctor Gorst, and we get and or helping her find
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: a way to get her revenge, and get her revenge
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: she does. So how did how did you feel about
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: that whole idea of allowing her to basically destroy her
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: demons literally?
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's I can understand either way. I mean
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: the thing is, I I hesitate to wait into it
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: because I know that my takes are all wrong with
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: this show. But I'll just venture gingerly out there and
• 46:38
  Speaker 4: we'll push you. Don't worry, No, I'm not sure the
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: message they're trying to send at that point is largely
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: where I go because there's you know, it goes back
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: to the whole argument of like, well, Anakin was hurt
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: and wronged with the Tuscan raiders and what they did
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: to his mom. So are we making in our meant
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: that is slaughter of the tribe was correct because they
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: were all guilty of it, right, But at the same time,
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: I know it's a very distinctly personal sort of thing.
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: And are they trying to get her to a point
• 47:13
  Speaker 4: where it's like she can close that chapter and move
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: on now, Like I'm just not sure what they were
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: trying to say.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: That's an interesting point, though, John, because without the force
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: and talking about the force and the light side on
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: the dark side, which you know is said every five
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: minutes in normal Star Wars, that's true, you have her,
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: you know, killing the source of her you know, terror,
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: and never is it like, oh, Bis, why did you
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: do that? You're going down the dark side? PD, Like no,
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: there's none of that, Like that that doesn't even cross
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: anybody's minds. It's it did kind of feel like you know,
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: eating your cake and having it too or whatever. That's
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: saying is but where yes, we want to show the
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: impact of her sleepless nights and her trauma and her
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: struggle and all of that, but we also want to
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: be able to tie off that arc. She kills him,
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: and now we're never going to have to talk about
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: that again. You know, it doesn't become a through line
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: really past this point. Yeah.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, I would say at least at least the
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: way that I read this is that you know, and
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Or comes to confront Luthen and he is furious about
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: him messing with Bis in Dix's state, right, And I
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: read this as one of those things where Luthen is
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: doing what he needs to do to keep and Ork
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: and Bix in the game, and he needs Bix fixed,
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: he needs Bix well for and Or to keep going there,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: and therefore, you know, uh, they get their revenge on
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: doctor gorse To. Yeah, I mean I think that's you know,
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: the question you raise of the the morality of it
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: is is excellent, you know, because that is a question
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: that that we should ask. And you know, what we've
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: seen that this this person has done and what we
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: learn I think that makes this kind of interesting. They
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily even know but the the Empire wants to
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: expand this person's research, uh, so that they could basically
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: use this torture on anyone and everyone. Uh And so
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: you know, when we're talking about the morality of it, Yeah,
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: they kill this guy, but he's about to inflict this
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: on who knows how many more beings in the galaxy,
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: and so by taking him.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: Out, greater good argument.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, exactly, So again, I think I think that's
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: the kind of the beauty of the show, right. The
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: whole point is to make that discussion of of what
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: you know, you referenced it, Darren, is the whole speech
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: that Luthern gives. I am forced to use the the
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: tools of my enemy. And we see that over and
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: over again of that happening, right. I mean, one of
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: the most blatant examples of that is the repurposing of
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: K two s O literally of tool of the enemy,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and and so yeah, he's funny and everything,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: but you know that's who he was. And so I
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: find that to be one of the beauties of the
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: show is that it doesn't make these questions easy, and
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: it makes you as an audience have to wrestle with them, right, and.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: It would be nice to see the characters so with
• 51:00
  Speaker 4: them from time to time, outside of Luthen giving a
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: speech in the previous season.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: But I but I think that that is happening all
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: of the time with these characters. I mean, Luthan himself
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: is is wrestling with even Claya is wrestling with this.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: We see that in her backstory. We see and Or
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: wrestling with this. We obviously see Bix wrestling with it
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: because she's not only dealing with the torture that she suffered,
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: but she's also dealing with, you know, having having to
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: defend herself and take a life and what that means
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: for her in like we see Santa dealing with that
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: in the in in all that she's been called to
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: do in her relationship with Vell, in.
• 51:45
  Speaker 4: The fact that she comes back very correctly just in
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: time for Vell to die in a very clever.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Scentate to die.
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: So whatever, Yeah, yeah, okay, so oh no, I mix
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: up Vell and scent it.
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: You're right, we know we knew what you met. And
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: you know she's definitely in the key person that died
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: this arc.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: Just yes, key person that died this arc. Sure, yes, absolutely,
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: But again it's you know, the thing is this is
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: this is one of the things that makes it tough.
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: Is I know that I'm apostate among certain circles of
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: Star Wars fans for not being in love with every
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: decision that this show made. But you know there, you know,
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: I if I go back to that, I'm like, Okay, well,
• 52:28
  Speaker 4: this feels like another thing where if it had been
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: given the proper amount of time for these two characters
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: to develop further on screen, instead of saying, hey, remember
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: that person, Yeah, we're going to kill her now and
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: that's going to make this one sad that you care
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: about too, and it just it's like, oh, okay, well
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: we'll throw that one in there too, cool like, And
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: that is I think just a product of the fact
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: that they were like, Okay, well, we were going to
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: spend four years telling all of this, so you know,
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: let's make it all happen and we'll just we'll get there.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's true. I think that story does suffer
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: the most from the compression of a of a twelve
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: episode year into a three episode here you go.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think I think the beauty to
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: me of this show is that it works because the
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: actors sell it and if it doesn't work for you,
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: you know, Okay, I'm sorry it didn't work for you.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: You know. So the next to last arc of the show,
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: the penultimate arc two bby is I mean, I guess
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: it could arguably be where the most action kind of
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: happens in the in the season, as everything that's been
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: building on on Gorman comes to a head. We get
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: a lay Miz moment on on on Gorman basically, and
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: we have the Javert and Jean Valjean moment. Of course
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: one doesn't know who the other is. And so yeah,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: I'm really interested to just hear about, you know, what
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: you guys think about this one, especially since yeah, this
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: is this I mean, one might even argue that this
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: is almost kind of the culmination of the season, and
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: and the next arc is almost like a coda that
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: just leads us into Rogue one.
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see that. I mean, Episode eight and
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: nine are like, in my opinion, one of the best
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: two episodes of this season with the Gorman massacre and
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: then and it's like, oh my gosh, that's that's that's
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: like the that's got to be the high point. And
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: then you have Mathma's speech and extraction which is just
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: even more like they just keep the train running. They
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: had an event out here in Hollywood. I feel I
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: kind of feel for these actors because for like a
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: month and a half they've been on the and Or
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: train and they've got to be exhausted because they are
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: just doing interview after interview after I mean, they were
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: doing a fan event and then like two days later
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: they were in Japan for celebration. So but they had
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: an event and we got to watch Welcome to the
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: Rebellion episode nine, you know, in a fairly large screen
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: kind of theater set up, and man, I mean, you
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: know how it's ending, but you're holding on to the
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: arm rest of your chair because they're just trying to
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: get out of the setate the noose is closing, you know,
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Mathama has given her amazing speech. So yeah, I think
• 55:42
  Speaker 3: many people would think this is the high water mark
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: of the season. And you even get a bit of
• 55:48
  Speaker 3: a respite at the very beginning, where Bix and Cassian
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: it's been a year, so they've lived on Yavin for
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: a year, they've been together, they're not on Coruscant, and
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: so it's like, oh, things are kind of getting a
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: little better. The rebellion's a little more cohesive, but because
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: it's it's always I have to wrap my head around
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: the timing a bit because it's slightly odd in how
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: they do it where they say too B B why
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: But this is really within that year at some point,
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: because next week it's right at the end. It's not
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: a year before the Battle of Yavin, it's like a
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: week before. So this is roughly ish a year year
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: and a half out from Yavin or the battle. But yeah,
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: it gosh, yeah, revisiting, re deconstructing the massacre scene, you know,
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: Cereal's death, keep key death. I know, I got to
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: point him out, but yeah, there's just there's so much
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: in these three episodes, especially eight and nine, which I
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: never thought I'd say episode eight and nine were the
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: best part of Star Wars. But yeah, they found out,
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: they got me, they got me, and oh, not even
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: talking about the ending. I mean, I feel like I'm
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: doing all the talking. But the very ending, we get
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: introduced to K two to KX units, you know, from
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: sitting down with Cyril to uh, just causing the Gorman massacre.
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: As they are unleashed on the populace and they're terrifying
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: they are. I mean when I walk around with k
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: Tso the puppet, he's very intimidating, Like he's seven foot two,
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: he's full size, he's huge. And you know, when I'm
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: walking in a con, I don't know why people get
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: out of the way. I don't know why. Maybe it's
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: because they're afraid he's gonna pick them up like a
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: stormtrooper and check them over a railing. But it was, yeah,
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: it was obviously, I mean, my favorite character. I was
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: gushing over seeing him, although it did give me slight
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: pause because as cool as it was, seeing the KX
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: units like they are committing atrocities like it is yea,
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: you know, they are brutally killing people like with body slams,
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: so you know, to not not to sidebar. But after
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: episode eight, the Gorman massacre, I'm part of the Fible
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: first Legion and we do you know, stormtroopers and dressing
• 58:39
  Speaker 3: up and all that stuff. And I have a set
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: of Stormtrooper armor and I had a interesting sentiment after
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: the episode where it gave me pause about wearing my
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: Stormtrooper armor again because of the of the scene. And
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying like I'm never gonna wear it I'm
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: not saying I went to that that far, but there
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: was a time, and there's some online communities of Legion
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: members and other people were sharing they had that same sentiment.
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: Not everybody. It's not like one hundred percent of the Legion,
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: you know, through their armor in the trash, but a
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: lot of us had discussions of wow, like it. You know, yeah,
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: we say we're bad guys doing good but you know, yeah,
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying it's drawing the parallel of like people
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: who dress up in like Nazi paraphernalia or anything, or
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: like there's a it started to pull back the curtain
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: a little bit of like, oh, these are really bad people.
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: And and I think, like I said, it was a
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: pause and you can still kind of focus on you know,
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: Star Wars episode four and always missing the mark and
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: knocking your head on the door and like, you know,
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: the the comical Stormtrooper that we're more used to. But
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: it was just interesting that other people who have the
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: costume had similar interactions. So, yeah, this was a Whirlwind
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: three episode.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: Well what about you.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: John, did you feel this was a high water mark
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: for at least for the parts of the series.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this is the part where I got invested in
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 4: the season. You know, it was definitely definitely in terms
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: of storytelling, I got more interested in what was going on,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: and I you know, I thought that it was, you know,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 4: pretty well put together. The serial resolution was interesting with
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: the way that he buys it, and you know, that
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 4: sort of thing about how you know, he had been
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 4: obsessing about this thing for years and regarded you know,
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: Cassian as the architect of all his woe and neither
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: of them actually knew each other. You know, that's a
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 4: statement in and of itself, but you know, you know,
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: and of course, you know who doesn't love the mon
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: mothmas speech and getting her out of there right, so
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: you know, obviously that's going to be a payoff. And
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: that's that's the sort of thing where you know, this
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 4: arc feels more organically a part of what people signed
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: up for when they heard about nandor show.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: I could see that and just think of the first
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: seven episodes as a slow burn. And because you have
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 3: to build, you can't just start with the Gorman massacre,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: like you would not be nearly.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: As good, right, It wouldn't be as effective if you did,
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: you know, regardless of the bumps getting up there at
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: least starts to come together at this point, you know.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 4: And and uh, you know, like I said, like the
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: way that they have him extract her from Corussant is
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 4: well done. You know, some of it gets to what
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: I don't care for in the some of the production design,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: but that's again that's just sort of like descending into
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 4: those particulars. But you know, just the way that it
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: plays out as well put together.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: Well and we get notable death of her driver. And
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: and it's interesting because I've heard some people say, oh,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: maybe he had heard the speech and he was kind
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: of like maybe starting to turn and realize, but at
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: that point he's so it's like, no, sorry, you are
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: in the box of the ISB plant and you cannot
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: get out, Like you even if you changed your mind,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: he's gonna shoot you. And we get the awesome, you know,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: gift of mine mother's reaction to him getting shot in
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: front of her. But but back to Cassie in for
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: a second, because Matt I wanted your thoughts on you know,
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: his we talk about his death and the who are you?
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's the episode title, but I almost feel
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: like we've moved past this was my view, like we've
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: moved past the whole cat and mouse, Like he doesn't
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: talk about Cassian at all. He's he's on the ISB train,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: He's on his woman train, like he's that's the new Cirrial,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: Like he doesn't really care about class, you know what
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, whatever you're gonna call that relationship, but I
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: think that's way more interesting his interactions with Deirdre, with
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: choking her with like, I mean, he's like losing his mind,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: and so it almost felt like and then for one
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: moment he was season one Cyril again when he sees
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: and Or and he loses it, but like only for
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: that moment, I feel like that's actually his care. But
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: that was how I kind of viewed it. Did you
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: see it the same way? Did did Cyrel kind of
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: evolve into ISB cereal? Or was he always looking for
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: Oh this is helping advance my like Dedra is constantly
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: looking for acxis no matter what. But I felt like
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: Cyril at least wasn't shown constantly looking for and or
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: not like season one.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Right, No, I I think you can say.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: One hundred percent right, I won't hold it against you.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, I I think for me, the thing
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: that happens in that moment is that there's a there's
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of things that kind of quickly spiral for
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Ceil One. You know, he's an idealist, right in the
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: sense of like he truly kind of believes in this
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: this empire. He believed in this idea. He's helping law
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: and order, you know, he's helping the galaxy and and
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: and at the same time, right, it's also the thing
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: that he's using to help himself, right. And the moment
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: that happens there is that it's he he loses it
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: all the woman that he is in love with. He
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: realizes he's been used the entire time, and he's been
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: used to destroy these people, and and what he finds
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: is that he's being used for an atrocity in this way, right,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: And I think he was.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: Connecting with him, he was connecting with the Gorman. He
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: was still getting information. But there's little hints of like flirtation.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: And because he's always seen himself as a man of
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: the people, you know, yes, even in his course at
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: you know days of course that core corporate, his corporate days.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: But yeah, when they're both oh man dedrend Zero, that
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: is such an interesting Yeah, tragic story because you know
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: when when deeeders all like it's going to be perfect, Sarah,
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: We're gonna get to go back to Corrousan and live
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: the life we want, and you're just like, what planet?
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: I know, what planet? But what planet are you living
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: on right now? Because you are so out of touch
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: both of you. They are not communicating, they don't know
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: each other's love language. They need counseling so bad.
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: But well, yeah, I mean the point of this is
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: really interesting, and I'm glad you brought it up, Darren,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: because I think it really does bring something interesting to light.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: You know, we really truly kind of see the way
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: in which, you know, the way that's the parenting of
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: somebody can have a massive impact on who they are. Right,
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: Cyril is obviously looking for acceptance in all the wrong
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: places because he has this terrible mother, right who who
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: is who is awful? You know, and and and is
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: nothing but critical and yet she since he is her
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: entire life somehow, Right, Deirdre has grown up in a KinderCare.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: Who knows exactly how all the math works there? You know,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: I like to think that she was actually in a
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: republic facility which turned into and.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: That's what I see in and then she just right,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: I don't get.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: And then and then the fascinating thing is like, you
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: have this and Or character, right, who is is rescued
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: from a planet before it's destroyed, grows up with a
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: loving father and mother, and who he turns out to
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: be is very different than these other two characters, and
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: so in many ways there's strange mirrors of one another.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: And so but yeah, that moment that that like Cyril
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: has lost everything, and so instead of them doing this
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: kind of like cliched moment of a redemption arc, for him,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: he snaps the moment he sees and Or and and
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: and And of course it makes sense for him to
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: snap when he sees and Or because he then can
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: put all of his rage and blame on and Or
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: that as if it's his fault, right, And then you know,
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: the the moment that he then realizes that and Or
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: doesn't even know who he is, it's like it's it's
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: the greatest moment of injustice in his life, right, And
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: so yeah, I think that that's an incredible moment. I
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: mean this this I I would I would posit that
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: this arc is one of the greatest things that Star
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: Wars has ever done for me, I mean just personally.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: It's it is the way in which the tensions built
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: is so perfect, and again it feels so lame miss
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: in that sense. And and to watch the Empire just
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: destroy this planet and and what's crazy about that, right
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: is that you know they're actually destroying this planet because
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: they need quote unquote need something from this planet, you know,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: and then we're gonna watch them in and you know,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: a new hope destroy a planet just because they can.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: They don't need anything from all there on. It's just
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: because they can to send a message. And it's like
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: it's the ratcheting up of the terror of the Empire
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: here I think is just incredible. And then, like you mentioned, Darren,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: that it leading into mon Mathma giving that speech of
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: all speeches. Uh, you know, we thought Luthen's speech was
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: the end all, be all of and or will know
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: bon Matha was like hold my.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: Beer, hold this whole show.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, She's like hold my uh chandrill and drink here
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: with the with the fizzy thing in it because I
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: got this. And yeah, the the the exit there is
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: is pretty phenomenal. So uh, we we have the last arc,
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: and really the last arc boils down to the fact
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: of of Luthan getting the information from Lonnie about the
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: Death Star because he's tapped into Dedra's comms channel, which
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: apparently she was also put on a signal chat that
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: she shouldn't have been on UH and and then uh
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: she just stayed there, but then she didn't realize that
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: she had been piggybacked on UH and Lonnie is the
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: most unsung hero of the Rebellion ever because without him,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: this show doesn't happen uh and and so it really
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: becomes about getting that information. Then too Reavin with you know,
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: Luthan dying and Claya having to to to to finish
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: the job, we learn about her, and then of course
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: it's it's all about UH leading right into Rogue one
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: and so final final arc. What did you guys think?
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: I mean, I know you said and I kind of
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: agreed that. Oh man, after last last chapter, you know,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: this is like a coda, But she's that first episode,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: you know, that is the In that episode, so much happens,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: like you have the confrontation between Deidre and Luthen, you
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: have the whole break in at the hospital, which is
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: a huge sequence. You know, you have you know, Luthan
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: killing Lonnie, you know, all sorts. You have the whole
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: the fact that Cassian isn't even in this episode, like
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: it's all about and you get the flashback of Luthen
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: and Kayla and their history and story, you know, blowing
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: up things on the boo like that. That episode feels
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: like we have oh man, we only got three up
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: was left? Okay, well, let's put all this in like
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: they're gonna use every minute they have because they they
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: it's a race towards the finish line. And then then
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 3: you're watching Dedra like Crumple under Krenik, like the finger
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: on the Forehead scene. You get K two's glorious hallway scene,
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 3: which is one of my favorites of the entire Star
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: Wars saga, as he clears away and uses Imperial officers
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: as riot shields. But and then yeah, and then it
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: leads to the Jeddak hyber Urso not the best title
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: of an episode, gonna admit, but it's like it's a
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: temp title. We'll think of something better and then we
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 3: never did. But you know that one, I'd say definitely
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: that one. It's the coda it's the from the slow
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 3: mocush walking of Cassian too. You know him wearing the
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: same jacket he is going to wear on the first
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 3: scene of Rogue one that we see him in. Like
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: that is hours, if not a day before Rogue one.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: Like we are right there as we're landing the I
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: say plane, but we're landing the shuttle. So yeah, it
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: it's a coda. But man, you're buckling up the whole time.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: But but I don't know, what did you What did
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: you think, John? Did this feel like a coda three part?
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: Did it feel too jammed? Like we have so much
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: to do because our backs are against this wall of
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: Rogue one that we have to dock at.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I I mean I thought the final arc was good.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: I felt one of the best parts of it was
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 4: I finally got the crenic that I thought would have
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 4: worked better and probably originally existed in Rogue one, because
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 4: we've all we all know that that was constructed very differently,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 4: and this, this cretic comes across like the crenic that
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 4: was originally there that got neutered a little bit in
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: the final cut of Rogue one, where it was like
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 4: there was some missing menace to him, and it was
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 4: nice to have the menace added so that, you know,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 4: obviously it's constructed so that when you see Rogue one,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 4: he has a little bit more bite to his character,
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 4: so they obviously use this opportunity to address that, and I,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 4: you know, it made him infinitely more interesting. Obviously, who
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: doesn't love seeing a backstory on a character like Luthan.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 4: I found, intentionally or not, that the fact that if
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 4: you look at the what's referred to as the European
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 4: cut of Highlander, Claya's origin story of how she meets
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 4: up with Luthen is basically the same, not one to one,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 4: but virtually the same as how Rachel and the Highlander
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 4: get to work together and she grows up with him
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: from childhood. Which if they did that intentionally, then kudos
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 4: because I picked up on it. If they did it unintentionally,
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 4: then we obviously all watched the same movies growing up,
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 4: So either way it works. But you know, I liked
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 4: I like the way the final arc came together. I
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 4: wasn't necessarily crazy about specifically how it ended, just it
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 4: just the the specific sequence of events, And I think
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 4: probably what I was reacting to was after a certain
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 4: time marker. In the last episode, I said, Okay, I
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 4: know everything that's coming up here because they have to
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 4: put this character in this shot, in this this character
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 4: in this type of shot, and it just you know
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 4: it thought it fell along those lines, and that that's
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 4: not a negative or a positive. It's simply that's the
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 4: constriction that they were in, right, and so you know again,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 4: but it's the box you're in. To borrow a phrase
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 4: from you and you know. So the final arc works well,
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 4: and I think from my perspective, it works well specifically
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 4: because Krenick is he gets I think he really gets
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 4: to shine in this arc. You know, he finally became
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 4: that really up close and personal bad guy that I
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 4: wanted to see.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: It's interesting. I mean, we're not diving into Rogue one
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: because we don't got time for that. But if we
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: had had this level of Krenic and Rogue one, I
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: think we would have. You could have gone without Tarken.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: You wouldn't have need another big, bad shadow like because
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: Krenick is terrifying like him, you know, his influence on
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: the bureaucracy. He has a ton of power. But yet
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 3: we still get subtle moments like with him and and
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: was it gors the No, No, that's not the name.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 3: Part of Gas, yes, they say it's got a big,
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: long name, and I was trying to remember, but yeah,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 3: him and part of Gas like their scene, Oh my gosh,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: like where they kind of drop the facade for a
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 3: moment and they're talking using first names of like hey,
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 3: hope you make hope we make it through. What's gonna
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: happen because they both feel like the end is near?
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: And I mean to even part of Gas is death,
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 3: which is such a subtle death but is shot amazingly.
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: I think, I think, to me, that's as you guys
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: were talking about Credicos just kind of thinking about, you
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: know him specifically is the character and and you know
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: he has throughout this whole season, right, you know, he's
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: he's come off is as this incredibly arrogant and powerful character, right,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: And part of that is because he's behind the scenes
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: on the most secretive, top secret thing that the Empire
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: has been working on for like, you know, who knows
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: how many years. We actually don't know quite how many years,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: but it's been a long time. Part of Gast even
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: mentions like the fact that we've been able to keep
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: this secret for this long is amazing. Like, this is
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: the most off the books, super top secret thing that's
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: ever happened in the history of the galaxy, and the
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 1: fact that we've you know, made it last this long
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: is amazing. But I think what actually is amazing is that, yes,
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: he can come off like this in this episode, but
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: by the time we reached Rogue one, the secret, the
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: cats out of the bag. And as as Qui Gon said,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: there's always a bigger fish. So yeah, Kronic looks like
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: the big guy here. The next guy on the totem
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: pole that that's only surpassed by Vader and the Emperor
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: is Tarkan, right, and and so it's that thing that
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: where that they've I think actually they built in kind
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: of perfectly to this season to help explain why Kronich
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: doesn't get to be the character he is here because uh,
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 1: you know, we always thought Dedro was great too, but
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: like she's taken down every peg because she's thrown a
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: Narkiina by the end of this, you know, because she's
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: the one who takes the biggest fall part of Gasp,
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: you know, realizes that the the rebellion is inevitable and
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: that it basically the empire's on its last legs, even
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: though it doesn't know it, and he's like, yeah, I'm
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: done with this. I'd rather commit suicide than live through
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: whatever punishment they're gonna dole out. And and then you know,
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously the rest of this, this, this, this,
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: this whole arc is really just about setting up Rogu
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: run right to get us to the point where we're
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: going to get there. I I found the most interesting
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: part about this is that the the two B B
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: why one b B why are the first introductions that
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: we get at all of spirituality and the Force through
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: the Force Healer, which I loved and I thought were
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: really great additions. Because uh, then this this episode kind
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: of what ends and or kind of doing the montage
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: walk right is byo are Ghana telling him may the
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: Force be with you. And in these last two years,
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: it's like there's been this slow progression of the Force
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: kind of finding its way back into the story, which,
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: of course, you know, row one, it's going to be
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: there because of Jin and her parents, especially her mother,
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: you know, with the Kyper crystal and her belief in
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: the Force in some ways, and then of course it
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: bursts back onto the scene when Luke comes on the
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: stage right, And so I kind of love the way
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: in which Gilroy was able to kind of work that
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: back into the Star Wars saga and show that it's
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: as the rebellion is growing. So is this idea of
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: the force that has been squelched out by the empire,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: or at least they thought they had squelched it out right,
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: but it can't help but still exist. And so I
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: really love that. And this arc I thought was like,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: to me, the most moving thing is watching the backstory
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: of Luthan and Clia. And what's interesting is Clia is
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: very much a mirror. We don't realize this until that episode,
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 1: but she's a mirror for and Or right and Or
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: gets parents who love him raise him.
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: Well, Cleia.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: Gets Luthen, who raises him like a revolutionary from from
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: the moment that he has her.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: But this arc we also see that she's kind of
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: also the string poler, Like, yeah, he's kind of We've
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 3: always thought he's the boss of boss, but she kind
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: of is in a lot of ways.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: They feed off each other in some ways. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: I agree, I agree.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: So I wanted to ask John, you know you're talking
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 3: about the Force Healer. And you know, I think one
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 3: of the big things for and Or is everyone is like, hey,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: look star Wars without lightsabers and Jedi and Force, like
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 3: it can be done and it's still good. Did you
• 1:22:56
  Speaker 3: miss those aspects, Jean Or did you wish that there
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: had been more Force religion of Star Wars or was
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: it okay to take a break from that? No?
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 4: I mean, obviously, so long as the the story's well told,
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 4: who cares? You know, it's you know, it is what
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 4: it is, and it doesn't matter whether a character is
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 4: constantly bringing it up. We're supposed to be in an
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 4: era where people are more cynical about those sorts of things,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 4: So I understand why there wouldn't be you know, emphasis
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 4: on it. It makes sense for these characters. They're not
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 4: people who have lived with Jedi around them for their
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 4: whole lives. They're not people who have necessarily seen that.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 4: We meet Han Solo in a New Hope and he's
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 4: skeptical that the Force even exists, and so you know,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 4: it's fitting for the time period, as it were, for
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 4: people not to be necessarily you know, all in on
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 4: the Force. I mean it, it's one of those things
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 4: where you can also debate it out because you know,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 4: de Donna says in a New Hope, you know, then
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 4: get to your ships and may the forest be with you.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 4: So obviously there is some sort of spiritual element strongly
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: at play with you know, at least the the older
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 4: generation that is populating the base, because.
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: I had no idea. You never broughtably exactly.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 4: I was talking about to Donna. I wasn't talking about myself,
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 4: but but I'm saying like, it creates a you know,
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 4: it creates an interesting thing because everybody's cynical, and then
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 4: we're going to jump right into you know, Rogue one
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 4: and and a New Hope where you know, you get
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 4: exposed to people who are more attuned to it. So
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 4: it's you know, it doesn't ultimately to me matter. You know, again,
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 4: as long as the story is well told and you know,
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 4: all those sorts of things, I'll plug into it. I
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 4: can say that I have spoken with somebody directly, a
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 4: guy that I work with, I respect him very much,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 4: and he couldn't get into the show because in his perspective,
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 4: he doesn't want to watch Star Wars without Lightsabers and
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 4: Jedi because to him that's what Star Wars is. And
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 4: I was talking.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: That does exist. He can watch Star Wars with Jedi
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 3: and Lightsabers. It is out there that's it didn't and
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 3: and Or aired, and.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 4: He was he wasn't claiming that it did. He's just
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 4: saying that, like he's not going to plug into and
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 4: Or and because from his perspective, and you know, I
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 4: mean it's you know, everybody's got their different opinions and everything.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 4: But while I was talking about it with him, I
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 4: asked him to expound on it, and he's like, well,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 4: I can get non force stuff with these sorts of
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 4: things in other shows. He's like, I, you know, if
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 4: I'm coming to Star Wars, I'm there because I want
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 4: that thing. You know. It's like I go to Burger
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 4: King for burgers, and.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 3: I go to.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 4: Although I'm not advocating, I'm not advertising for Burger King.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 4: I go to X Franchise for whatever.
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: Although if Burger King wants to, you know, support our show.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 4: Right there you go. But you know, and I go
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 4: to uh Blaze Pizza because I want pizza and I
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 4: don't mix the two. And so it was his perspective
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 4: that like I go to Star Wars for those things
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 4: because I can get these things elsewhere, and so I
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 4: don't he didn't see a specific benefit to that, and
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 4: you know, of course I was like, okay, I like,
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 4: I I understand what he's saying. And I just said
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 4: to him, I was like, well, you know, I mean,
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 4: let me know if you ever come back to it.
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 4: But he stalled out it like the second or third
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 4: episode because he was like, once he saw that he
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 4: wasn't going to get that, it wasn't of interest to him.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 4: And so it's like, you know, I think that you know,
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 4: there's going to always be a contingent that's like, well,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 4: why would I watch it without that? I'm not in
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 4: either camp. You know, I'll watch anything that's that well
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 4: constructed sort of thing.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, because we both like the bad Batch, right,
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: and there's barely any of that.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 4: Stuff in that, but there is, you know, there's gung
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 4: Gem and there's you know, there's questions of the force
• 1:27:14
  Speaker 4: and stuff like that.
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: But I mean, but it but like those are like
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: you know, one episode, two, three episodes basically, well, it's.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 4: Much closer, much closer in the timeline to Revenge of
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 4: the Sith, which is, you know, I mean, the Jedi
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 4: are open and hugely active up until that moment in time,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 4: at which point they go deeply into hiding. And so
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 4: it's like, you know, you know your point, Darren. You know,
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 4: there's stuff going on that's being told in this same
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 4: general time period between films where there is addressing why
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 4: the Jedi aren't as as a parent, and you know,
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 4: there's been plenty of material that talks about you like
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 4: any regime the Empire would change the curricula so that
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 4: there would you know, be no you know, there would
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 4: be no revisiting of history, the books would be rewritten.
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 4: So yeah, makes sense.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think it's a great question, Darren. And
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: and and you know, I think that does make for
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: one of the most interesting parts of the series in
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 1: that sense of like truly seeing how much the Jedi
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: have become, you know, kind of a myth, a legend
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: and almost forgotten because of the work of the Empire,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: you know, and so well, you know, I mean as
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: any series of television twelve episodes as big as these are,
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: you know, we could talk for hours, but I think
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: I'm really interested, you know, to see where we end
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: up with the ratings, and so Darren as the guest.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: We're so excited that you were here. Where do you land?
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 3: Then?
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 1: Only that you do not give half stars?
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 4: Is this a skill five?
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 3: I forgot we're rating.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: This, but yeah, five, we'll do five.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I give it a five for what
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 3: it did, for what it accomplished for you know, I
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: want to rewatch it. I want to. It has some
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 3: of my favorite characters in all of Star Wars. And
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: I'm not just saying that because Katie is looking over
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: my shoulder like he's really mad. But no, it's is
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 3: a perfect No. Can I still give it a five
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 3: if it's not perfect? Yes? Because I enjoy it. I
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 3: will rewatch it. It expanded the universe in an amazing way,
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 3: and I hope we get more, not more as in
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: and or season three, but more as in more flavors
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: of Star Wars. I think Star Wars can only be
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 3: greater if we get different flavors of things coming out,
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 3: whacky stuff, fun stuff, serious stuff, droid stuff, animated stuff,
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: all of it. You know, it's a great time to
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: be a Star Wars fan.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what about you, John?
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, the last six episodes are basically the season
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 4: for me, so it like I I can't see myself
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 4: revisiting the first six episodes. Really, they just never clicked
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 4: for me, and you know, be that as it may.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 4: The back six were you know, they had bits, you know,
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 4: they had interest. There were specific moments that I really
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 4: enjoyed that I thought were good and poignant and worked
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 4: very well. So basically, since i'm splitting at halves, he's
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 4: that way out of five, I'll give it a two
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 4: and a half because there's a half. No, Darren, I
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 4: give half stars. I don't. I don't care what you say. Well,
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 4: that's just because Darren's really really hardcore about this half
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 4: star nonsense.
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 3: But I'm not.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 4: I'll give it two point seven five stars or two
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 4: point two three stars if I want to. Darren, you
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 4: judge my star as a look of judgment, right there,
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 4: K two can judge me all that he wants to.
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 4: I don't care. But yeah, so since i'm split, it
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 4: has these I'm going two and a half, which is
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 4: half of five.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I like what you said, Darren, and
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: I really resonate with it, which is you mentioned how
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: you want more Star Wars flavors, right, and I resonate
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: with that as well, you know, I don't want all
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: of my Star Wars to be and Or and and
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: to me, John, you and I have talked about this
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: many times on the six two Club and on aggressive negotiations,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: But one of the things that I think the Clone
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: Wars really did for all Star Wars fans is to
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: prepare us to be able to see all different flavors
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: of Star Wars and many different types of genres, and
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: and Or is one of those, right Uh. We both
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 1: also really enjoyed Skeleton Crew, totally different flavor, right uh.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: And So I don't I don't need all Star Wars
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: to be in this vein. I don't think it needs
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: to be. But for me, uh, and Or, seasons one
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: and two together I would consider an absolute masterpiece. Season
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: two specifically, I think, like you, Darren, I have some
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 1: quibbles with this season, especially with that first arc, but
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: beyond that, in those quibbles, the rest of the stuff
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: completely carries me. And this is an absolute, stone cold
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: masterpiece of Star Wars storytelling. And I love it, and
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: I can't you know, I've I've watched it twice now,
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: and in all honesty, I'll rework, I'll rewatch and Or
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: I think many times I love it, and I'll be
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 1: really interested now, you know, possibly to maybe revisit uh
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: ROW one and talk about it, maybe in light of
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: and or at some point, because I think that the
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: show now recontextualizes, obviously in the best way that movie.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: And so. But we're so glad that you joined us here,
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: and so, Darren, let everybody know where they can catch
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: up with you and see your incredible work on droids
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: like K two, s O and L three and your
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 1: cost playing and I mean, you're just a builder extraordinary.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: So where can people find you?
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 3: Oh? Thanks, Matt. Yeah, they can find me at doctorSci
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: fi dot com. I have a links to my socials
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: as well as pictures blogs. I probably need to get
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 3: back to updating my mission list. It's probably a couple
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 3: of years out of date. But yeah, I post a
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: lot about droid creations and events that I'm going to
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: a lot of fun playing in the Star Wars playground.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 3: And it's definitely true that if you build it, you
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 3: get to do cool stuff.
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: And John, where can everybody find you?
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 4: Well, you can find me is Cassel Junkie out there
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 4: on the social networks of your choice. If you wish
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 4: and you can of course find me over on the
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 4: Nerd Party network hosting a show with Darren called house Lights,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 4: where I get to expose him to movies he's never
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 4: seen before and get his reaction to different horror flicks,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 4: his delicate self and how he processes them, and threatened
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 4: to burn Tristan's car on occasion because he deserves it.
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 4: And you can find me, of course on Aggressive Negotiations
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 4: on the Nerd Party which is a Star Wars podcast,
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 4: and I co host with you, Matt Well.
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 1: I got to say people should listen to house Lights
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 1: because listening to you guys talk about movies and you know,
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: the threats that go back and forth are phenomenal. It's
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 1: a good thing that you guys all live thousands of
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: miles away from each other. But it's a delightful show.
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: So everybody should check that out. You can find me
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: all over social media under the name Matt Rushing Serial two.
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: Of course here on the network out of TFM, outside
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: of the six O two Club, I've got tons of
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: shows going on with Chris Jones as we're talking about
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: Star Trek, and so please to check all of that out.
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: But thank you so much, for joining us and John.
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: You know, I feel like I hear some chimes of
• 1:35:38
  Speaker 1: the Jedi temple. Maybe it's time for meditation. I don't know,
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: but I think it's time to close these negotiations.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 4: Indeed, these negotiations are closed, and y'all come back now.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 3: You're here, m hm.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: Join the revolution, Join the Nerd Party.