Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / 198: Ania Barycka | Need to Improve Social Media for Your Law Firm? Ask Ania.

Transcript

198: Ania Barycka | Need to Improve Social Media for Your Law Firm? Ask Ania. · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

• 0:00
  Ania: Educational content is great, but it often lacks personality. So if there's no other type of content to follow it up, people kind of get bored. Like, okay, you can tell me this in six different ways. I get it. Right?
• 0:13
  And it just gets boring. And people will scroll by to see something more entertaining. A fun way of relaying educational content, which is trending audio, for example, or using different mediums. Right? Going live.
• 0:27
  There's all these different ways to try educational content that isn't just talking to camera and like reading off of a script. Right?
• 0:37
  Intro: Welcome to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team, and systems, mastering money issues, and more? Then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth generating law firm. Each week, your host, Devina Fredrick, takes an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve and will pay you on time, and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. Devina is founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, and our goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund and still have time to enjoy the lifestyle of your dreams.
• 1:24
  Now here's Devina.
• 1:28
  Davina: Hi. This is Devina. And before we jump into today's show, I'd like first to introduce you to some of our sponsors. Over the last four years, Noble Marketing has tracked more than two fifty law firms and discovered 60 to 80% of new client calls were generated through Google My Business and Google Ads. Basically, you need to be on Google, noble marketing can help.
• 1:53
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• 2:32
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• 3:11
  Hi, everyone, and welcome back to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. I'm your host, Devita Frederick, and I'm really excited today about my special guest. Well, I'm always excited to have my guest on, but this person is particularly special to me because she is the brains behind my wonderful Instagram account. Anya Barycka is a law school graduate turned social media manager specializing in organic content marketing. She offers brands and businesses a multi platform method to connect with their audience in a meaningful, collaborative, and growth focused way.
• 3:43
  She's been named top 10 most influential people in social media management, and she's been featured in Disrupt Magazine and Canada News. She currently runs a bespoke social media agency called Ask Anya Media since 2020 and has recently opened a content creation studio in Toronto, Canada called Leaside Studio. We've been celebrating the new studio. Congratulations. Welcome, Anya.
• 4:05
  I'm happy to have you here.
• 4:06
  Ania: Thanks for having me, Navina.
• 4:08
  Davina: For those of you who are watching the video, you also wanna know that Anya is the reason behind this award that we won for having this is a gold award by the Hermes Creative Awards. We won a gold awarded last year in 2022 for our Instagram account that Anya manages for me. So thought I would share that for those video watchers. If you're listening just listening to the podcast, it's a gorgeous marble and with gold wings award that stands about a foot tall, and we were really happy to get it. So now let's dig into the juicy stuff, the goss all the scoop.
• 4:43
  I know our audience is gonna wanna hear how you help lawyers, law firm owners, and other professionals grow their Instagram. But before we do that, I wanna talk to you about you being a law school graduate turned social media manager. What happened? What was going on?
• 4:59
  Ania: What happened? Before law school, I was actually doing an internship in France in Toulouse, France for about six months. And I did social media for them just because I randomly fell into that role. Because, you know, social media often falls on random people at companies. That's what happened to me and I loved it.
• 5:16
  Then I kind of, you know, my immigrant parents reminded me that you can't make much money from this. You should better go to law school and do something with your life. So the good daughter in me went to law school. My grandfather's a lawyer, so it's not kind of from nowhere. When I went to law school, I worked at a law firm for four years and then I moved cities, changed jobs.
• 5:36
  And I decided that in March 2020 was the perfect opportunity to pick up a side hustle. And now I'm here with a full time social media agency. So I wouldn't look back for a second. I love it here.
• 5:49
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you do. You have a fantastic company. You're doing great work.
• 5:53
  You've got a lot of clients. Was there ever a moment I'm sure for your immigrant parents, there was a moment. But was there ever a moment when you thought, you know, I've put all this money and time and effort into this. Maybe I should give it a go. Or did you just say, nah, it's just not me.
• 6:10
  Ania: So I love working in corporate, which is what I did, like mergers, acquisitions, but my true ideal, I'd rather be doing immigration law, asylum law. That was where my passion was. And then I did a lot of that, figured out it's really hard on mental health going through this with your clients. So it's a very difficult job being a lawyer, any field and I'm a very creative person. I always wanted to draw, create graphics.
• 6:34
  How do I merge that with law? You can't really do it. You have to change departments at the law firm, Right? Like Yeah.
• 6:40
  Davina: You
• 6:41
  Ania: can't do both. So I decided to not do both and to pursue, you know, social media and a company and become an entrepreneur, which was scary in itself.
• 6:50
  Davina: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But one of the things that I found has been beneficial, I wouldn't take it by a law school education and my experience as a lawyer for anything because one of the things I found so beneficial about that is that it makes you a much better business person for yourself when you're engaging in contracts and working with clients and that kind of thing. Right? Did you have that similar experience?
• 7:09
  Ania: Absolutely. Contracts are scary for everybody involved except for lawyers. We know how to write them. We know what the terms mean. So it makes contracting really easy for me.
• 7:19
  It's not something scary, which most people in social media would be like, have to hire a lawyer. You know, I do create a lot of my own contracts and the discipline that you learn in law school and a lot of, you know, the negotiation skills and all those things. You do learn a lot in law school. I wouldn't take it back. I'm still paying off my loans.
• 7:37
  Let's be honest here. But with social media this time.
• 7:41
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. Did you have any naysayers? Because I find that's often the case when lawyers wanna shift gears and do something else that people worry about them. What kinds of experiences can you share about that?
• 7:53
  Ania: Well, first of all, did it in secret because I was worried about the naysayers. I was worried about my family. I was worried about my friends being like, has she lost her marbles? And she's leaving this field that she's worked so hard for and law school is extremely difficult to get through and graduate. Right?
• 8:11
  So what's got into her? Is she okay? So I did open Ask On You Media quietly. I didn't tell anybody. I registered it in March 2020.
• 8:21
  I didn't tell anybody about it. But once my friends and family started get to know that I'm doing this kind of as a side hustle with my first kind of clients that I had, they started sending me attorney positions that I could apply for and lawyer positions I could apply for without me asking for it. I'm asking if I'm making any money at all. Do I need help? What's going on?
• 8:43
  Nobody considered me leaving the field as something positive. And I'm doing something else that I'm happy with in my life. It's a negative thing. How could you be leaving such a lucrative thing as being working in law to be a social media manager? What are you doing?
• 9:02
  So the naysayers are there and they're still there. They still get applications here and there. Hey, you should try this. They're gonna be there.
• 9:08
  Davina: Yeah. And how did you sort of handle that? I mean, like, I've had naysayers myself. So I've had people that, you know, questioned what I was doing and when I made changes and everything I did actually. So how did you handle that internally?
• 9:23
  Internally.
• 9:25
  Ania: So I didn't get a lot of support from my parents and rather they're very nervous and telling me not to leave my full time job to pursue this. I had a lot of support of my partner who said, leave the job. You can see you're unhappy. You love social media. You do it all weekends.
• 9:39
  Right? Because the only time I could work seven till 10PM every day and then all weekends. So the supportive partner, you know, is really the person that helped me be able to pursue it without judgment. Right? And I really didn't share it with anybody else until like year two.
• 9:54
  Davina: Wow. That's insane that you were able to keep it kind of a secret for that long. I mean, I guess they knew you were crazy about social media kind of stuff. Yeah. What is it about Instagram?
• 10:05
  Because Instagram is kinda your jam. You do some things for other peep you know, on other social, but Instagram is really your jam and the thing that you love the most. What is it that you like about Instagram?
• 10:13
  Ania: Like Yeah. It's all content formats. It's my favorite thing. There's so much to do on Instagram. You know, with LinkedIn, now you get video.
• 10:21
  With TikTok, now you can post some static content, but it's not what drives, you know, traffic or engagement on the platform. And on Instagram, you have everything. You have the video, you have the long form, short form, you have single posts, you have carousels, you have lives. Like I really find Instagram is like the main platform for every business owner to be on.
• 10:43
  Davina: Wow. Wow. So let's talk about the kind of clients that you work with. I saw one of your reels that you had something like 75 clients, and I think this has been a while ago since you posted that. So Yeah.
• 10:56
  How many clients do you think you've had so far? You've been doing this for what? You're going
• 10:59
  Ania: on your third year? Almost. Yeah. Almost three years. Two and a half.
• 11:03
  So it's actually 75 accounts, not clients. Okay. So, you know, for example, you have a Facebook, you have an Instagram, you know, other platforms so that I consider like each a separate account. So I have managed I calculated the 75 accounts in the last two and a half years. That's a lot of, you know, content.
• 11:21
  That's a lot of experience. Awesome. 200 videos, you know, a month, you know, that I produce with, of course, some help with my team.
• 11:28
  Davina: And you've grown and you've grown a team. And I wanna talk about the team. I wanna tell people to just to give an idea of sort of how we work together because I think it's so fabulous. So Anya sends me to fill out a little questionnaire every month, and then she sends me the entire month's worth of content already done. And I review it and give feedback on it.
• 11:48
  And then she makes whatever revisions I want and then she posts it and I don't have to worry about it. And I mean, I think that's just amazing. Now I probably spend a little bit more time going over what she sends me and the other people do because I'm picky. I'm probably a little too controlling. But the things that I send her, to prepare for that, maybe raw videos or something like that.
• 12:08
  But I'm not creating the videos in Instagram. I'm creating raw videos. And she takes all that. She takes my brand color. She takes my brand style.
• 12:16
  She takes my voice. We've worked together for a long time now. I was shocked when you said it was like eighteen months. It's actually probably been a little bit longer now since we've had that. And it's really been, wonderful to have be to able to rely on somebody like that because I've had other people who try to manage my Instagram before and they just did not capture my voice.
• 12:35
  What do you think makes you good at capturing your different clients' voices? Because I know we're all different.
• 12:42
  Ania: Very good question. I try to call myself a chameleon. I can literally become you when I'm writing. For each of my clients, I have a whole page of everything about them. And before I start the content calendar for the month, I review that entire page about you.
• 12:58
  So I'm reminded of all the things that I can't use, all the things that I can use, like all the little things that I've been collecting from every single one of your notes. I put them in there and I'm reminded of that. You know, everything I do is customized bespoke like it's custom. There's no cookie cutter. Everybody is very different.
• 13:17
  And you're very different from every single one of my clients. So the way that I, I sounded bad, but that's a good thing. You know, everybody is super different. When I write for myself, it's different. Right.
• 13:28
  I make mistakes everywhere. And I just throw it out there. A lot of that can't do that for my client, for example, because what I do on my own Instagram is a playground, right? Testing a lot of things. I can't do that for my clients.
• 13:38
  But when I create content calendars, that's how I kind of get into your head. My clients' heads are who they are, what they represent, what are those unique styles when it comes to voices. Brand kits really help me. Right? What is the voice really helps me?
• 13:56
  What is the language that we like to use? Right? All those things written on that one page so I can get into, you know, the space really helps me to make sure yours is different than everybody else's. And it actually is.
• 14:08
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. It really is. That is a really talent. That is a real challenge and a talent.
• 14:14
  And I wonder how you have been able to have a team help you grow because, you know, people notice we switch out writers or we switch out whatever. So how do you think you've been successful in kind of growing a team and training your team?
• 14:29
  Ania: So one way I'm different than most agencies, I am fully client facing and my team is not. So that's why I also put a lot of pressure on myself for quality control. So if I have a writer writing captions, if I have a graphic designer creating graphics, I'm the one that gets the content calendar and has to review and make the edits because I know my clients. Right? So it's always that second, even though I have help, I need help with the amount of clients I have in growing the business.
• 14:58
  I do need help. So if I do have a specialist in copywriting, a specialist in graphic design, but it's always me that knows the clients And I will always do the edits on the content calendar myself to make sure it's exactly what the client needs it to be.
• 15:13
  Davina: Right. Right. And so tell me about different types of clients that you work for, different business types. But I know you've had lawyers and coaches. What other kinds of businesses?
• 15:24
  Ania: We have a journal business. Also work with like career coaches are big. I think I have two right now. Mental health coaches, health anxiety coaches. There's what else?
• 15:37
  Another health coach, a lot of coaches, I would say a lot less product based. I like working with any brands as long as they have an actual business. It's really tough when people hire social media managers and you don't have a proven business model. Then it's kind of tough for a social media manager to do anything with. So I generally say I work with companies that already generate money.
• 16:00
  Law firms are always generating money. They have services. So it's not that difficult to create, you know, content for law firms. So who else do we have? Realtors, mortgage agents.
• 16:12
  So mainly service based, I would say, Devina.
• 16:14
  Davina: Yeah. Service based businesses. Yeah. And that makes sense. When I started my business, I had some people who reached out to me to help with strategy for, like, ecommerce.
• 16:23
  And I did that for a couple of people, and I was like, okay. This is in my wheelhouse. So I think in mine, we're all service based businesses when I started. I wanna talk specifically about lawyers and law firms because I know you have lawyer and law firm clients who are Mhmm. Promoting their law firms and not a lawyer like me who's doing something else.
• 16:39
  Yeah. And give me an idea of kind of the kind of differences you noticed in working with law firms as opposed to other types of businesses.
• 16:50
  Ania: I actually find that they have the same problem by the time they come to me. Most law firms post a lot of generic content, and they add in all these stock photos, and there's no person or persona behind the business. So the way I work with all businesses is creating some type of person or brand representative. And that also is necessary in my view for a law firm because people connect with people to law firm clients that I have that are purely law firms. We personify them.
• 17:20
  We put a person in front of them or the whole team in front of their social media so that people can connect with these people even on tougher subject like divorce law. Right? Or trademark law. There has to be some connection between the person scrolling through reels at 11PM at night to, you know, the contents. Right?
• 17:38
  It can't just be generic. You know? This is what you get if you hire us as a law firm. Here's a testimonial. It has to be engaging.
• 17:45
  People come on social media to be, you know, entertained. So I see a big shift with law firms as well creating content that really gets people interested in the content. And then when they need the lawyer, guess who they're gonna go to? That lawyer.
• 18:00
  Davina: Right. Right. Right. Nobody wants to see your tombstone ad. Nobody wants to see just the little square blue and white placeholder with, you know, this is the kind of law we practice.
• 18:11
  I mean, think about your own Instagram experience. If you're scrolling through, what do you scroll past? What do you engage with? And so I think some lawyers I mean, those who sort of grew up on Instagram and creating videos and, you know, recording themselves doing all kinds of just basic things are accustomed to that. But I think there's a whole audience, huge audience, millennials, Gen X, and older millennials, Gen X, you know, who are sitting here going, scratching their head going, how does this get me clients?
• 18:42
  How is this worth my time? I don't wanna be on camera. I mean, like all the things. Right? What are some of the challenges you think law firms have in that regard?
• 18:52
  Ania: That exact thing that you mentioned. I don't wanna be on camera. I just do law. I'm a really good lawyer. Trust me.
• 18:58
  Right? But it's like, how are you gonna get people to trust you and to get to know you with your money? There's always a lot involved when you hire a lawyer. It's trust. So building some of that on social media makes it easier in that transition to actually hire a lawyer to help you with a specific problem.
• 19:17
  And I do love to see people saying, Anya, I'm just gonna try whatever you say. Right? But most people have this, like, you know, I need to look professional, Anya. I'm a lawyer. Right?
• 19:28
  Like, I cannot be jumping around on TikToks. Right? I know it took a long time for you to be on reels anyways and to try, you
• 19:35
  Davina: know, the point. The pointing stuff. I know. Right? Yeah.
• 19:40
  Ania: I know. I think too.
• 19:41
  Davina: I mean, there's a couple of things. One is that it's not my nature to lip sync and dance. I don't do that around my house. I know people are probably shocked because they probably think everybody does that, but I really don't. I love music, but that's not probably the music that I like would not be trending on Instagram.
• 19:57
  So, you know, I think, working with somebody else helps you expand your take a few chances on things you can do and also brainstorm about ways that you can create content that doesn't require you to do things you're uncomfortable doing because there's all kinds of ways. Now especially we're seeing a lot of people doing kind of moving away from the TikTok thing of constantly dancing on Instagram and going back to creating content of value. What types of content do you recommend to people? There's a mix of content. I don't mean reels and static content.
• 20:30
  I mean, the purposes of the content. What are the purposes of the content that you recommend kind of a mix?
• 20:36
  Ania: Yeah. So believe it or not, I use the same three content pillars for myself as I do for all my clients because it works every time except for one type of client, a celebrity because whatever they post just goes viral. So it's three content pillars. The first one is educational. Whoever you are, you need to teach.
• 20:54
  Free content out there is the way you remind people that you know what you know. Second, content pillar is always personal. This is the one most people struggle with the most. Right? I don't wanna put my face on my content.
• 21:07
  I don't wanna share that I have a family. Right? I wanna keep that private, but you don't actually have to share personal information. Right? You can share what your brand stands for.
• 21:17
  Right? What your law firm stands for. Here are the pillars of what we believe in here at this law firm. Right? Example.
• 21:24
  That's also personal Showing off all the associates that work there. The legal secretaries, the paralegals, everybody who's there. That can go into personal. And then the last one is called objection content. And that's the most difficult content to create.
• 21:39
  So all the reasons why somebody doesn't book your services or doesn't buy your product, put all those reasons at the forefront of your content. So by the time you have a couple months of, you know, objection content out there, when people reach out to you, there's no more objections left. And the money objection is probably the biggest one for everybody. And we put it out there right in center. Like, this is why this is worth the money.
• 22:04
  For example, I can
• 22:06
  Davina: be talking So about for lawyers, that's a huge consideration because people think lawyers are expensive. That is cost prohibitive. And you you're like, they're probably sitting here going, oh, well, you know, I can't put my fees out there because I don't know what it's gonna be or I don't know. But we're talking about talking in terms of the cost of not having a lawyer. Right?
• 22:26
  The cost of not having a lawyer when you have a legal problem is much more expensive than paying a lawyer. That might be an example of content using some way to tell that story. So even telling a story of a client who they tried to do it yourself contract and now they're hiring you and it's gonna cost $30,000 to take their case to trial. So even telling stories like that without naming clients specifically, because we know we can't do that for confidentiality purposes, but great ways to tell stories. Tell me about the purpose of engagement content and what that looks like.
• 23:01
  Ania: Well, the more people are pressing things like the like button, the comment button, the share button, the save button, the more, you know, the algorithm gets used to your content being, you know, engaged with or people are interacting with it. So it, you know, performs better in the algorithm. That's just natural how these algorithms work. There's so many algorithms for everything, for example, on Instagram. And the more people press on things, the more likely is the algorithm be like, okay, this must be engaging.
• 23:27
  Let's push it forward and see what other people think. That's how you land on places like the explore page. And then you get, you know, people following you from just a single post, which, you know, it's great. Free traffic. It's free lead generation top of the funnel.
• 23:42
  Davina: You've talked to me before about the amount of time you spend engaging on Instagram. What do you think is required of a small law firm owner or people that work for the firm or whatever to engage to drive up that engagement? Because we know how important it is. And there's a lot of content that gets posted that people just, you know you may get likes from your basic through your dirty dozen who follow everything you do and like it. But how do you increase engagement and comments and content and stuff like that?
• 24:11
  Like, in a comments thread, for example.
• 24:14
  Ania: So I think it depends on the package. For some law firms just need a presence. They just wanna exist. So they don't need to grow. They just need to exist.
• 24:22
  Their services are there. Nothing too fancy. They just need social media. On the other hand, there's law firms that wanna grow through social media and gain clients through social media. So for that, you generally need engagement.
• 24:36
  I call it outbound engagement. It's basically finding hashtags that ideal potential clients use going out on Instagram, finding that hashtag and engaging with them. Right? These are not like conversations that are complicated or anything like that. They're likes, comments, follows, reacting to stories that are just very simple, supportive messages, whatever they are to just also engage in your community, which is usually local for lawyers, you know, unless you have a virtual law firm.
• 25:04
  So those are ways you can engage with people and bring them back to your profile, and that's how you can grow besides just creating content.
• 25:13
  Davina: I hope you're enjoying the Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast. We'll get back to the show in just a moment. But first, I'd like to thank some of our sponsors. In the next ten years, 90% of legal services will be delivered online. Gavel is the software lawyers are using to streamline internal document automation and build online legal products like landlord legal or hello divorce.
• 25:40
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• 26:12
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• 27:23
  And now back to our show. So it's really reaching out to other people's content and commenting and all of that will help increase engagement with yours. So we know that it things are always changing in these social media platforms. What used to be popular is no longer popular. IGTV is an example of that.
• 27:41
  What do you think gets the most engagement now as far as the style of content? What type of content?
• 27:47
  Ania: I think both video and static content is performing well right now just because of that rebalancing that happened in November, October. Because the head of Instagram went kind of far with just prioritizing reels. Everybody was upset. Now static content. So all content that isn't moving and videos are performing really, really well.
• 28:09
  But in terms of the actual content, raw content, when you're kinda off the cuff talking because you're people feel like you're talking to them. This is not like professional videography, you know, all this lights and everything. People connect with people. That's the most important thing to remember about social media.
• 28:26
  Davina: I think that's a really important thing for people to hear and understand is that I know for those of us who grew up with a more formal experience as lawyers and dressing a certain way to go to the office and, you know, also those of us who are a little bit older and, you know, we're not gonna be throwing the messy bun on with no makeup, getting out there and talking on video. There is a way to be authentic and still feel like you look your best on videos. In fact, I think probably people who go and hire professionals to create kind of this canned content that sort of looks like b roll content, but they're in it, you know, probably aren't gonna have a lot of engagement in the same way. What have you seen?
• 29:08
  Ania: I think people scroll by that type of information all day every day just because it looks like it doesn't belong on social media. It looks like it's repurposed from, like, a YouTube video, and repurposing is great, you know, on socials and overall. But if it's too professional, it almost doesn't belong on social media, especially with the rise of, like, Lemon Eight, Be Real, all these types of new social media platforms that base, you know, everything on raw content in the moment stuff. So messy buns are fun. But if you don't feel comfortable with that, you know, just talking to the camera when you're dressed any way, you know, that is comfortable.
• 29:46
  I think that's better than not putting any content out there with you speaking original audio.
• 29:52
  Davina: So I think one of the things that lawyers tend to think that they need to do more than anything is educate. And I know you mentioned that as one of the pillars, but, I mean, what have you seen with channels where people tend to that's all they do is educate, educate, educate, educate. Do you see a difference between that and channels that are sort of mixing it up a little bit?
• 30:14
  Ania: Of course. Educational content is great, but it often lacks personality. So if there's no other type of content to follow it up, people kinda get bored. Like, okay, you can tell me this in six different ways. I get it.
• 30:29
  Right? And it just gets boring and people will scroll by to see something more entertaining. A fun way of relaying educational content, which is trending audio, for example, or using different mediums. Right? Going live.
• 30:43
  There's all these different ways to try educational content that isn't just talking to camera and like reading off of a script. Right?
• 30:51
  Davina: Right. Right. Right. One of the things that I've heard is everything is content. And I find that interesting because I see it.
• 30:58
  You know, when I'm looking at my Instagram feed, see all kinds of things. And there was one young lady attorney and she was doing reels, video of herself doing just mundane things around her house. I got she worked from home, obviously, and she's even done reels in her pajamas and fixing her hair and reels of her opening the refrigerator, reels of her doing things. And then she overlays on top of them her point of view or something legal or legal content or context. And I thought that was really interesting to think everything is content.
• 31:31
  So really what we could do is turn on the camera and just have us whatever we're doing when we're working or whatever. And then you can give that to a social media manager and they can put on real captions for you and all of that. It doesn't have to be as complicated as I think. It doesn't have to be like a photo shoot or anything like that. In fact, it's probably not going to play as well as it is if you're doing that.
• 31:53
  Now do we have to do reels? What other types of content? Like, I know carousels are a big thing right now. Explain to people what a carousel is if they don't know.
• 32:02
  Ania: Yeah. So it's basically, you know, a group of static images that you swipe through on Instagram. So instead of a single one, you can swipe through a carousel up to, you know, eight or nine slides. That's a carousel. You don't need to be on video if you don't want to, especially with the rebalancing.
• 32:19
  Six months ago, I would have said, yeah. You have to. There's just that's the algorithms. That's what they're doing. But now you really don't have to if you don't want to.
• 32:26
  But mix it up. Photos, graphics, infographics, carousels, like educational ones, you know, that people can swipe through and learn something. You don't need to just be on video. No.
• 32:37
  Davina: Yeah. What about stories? Is that still a thing, or how is that? Instagram. About stories.
• 32:44
  My sister loves stories. She'll sit there and just scroll through stories, and I'm like, I never think about stories. I never look at stories. I never think about them, but I understand it's a big part of the mix. We're posting stories.
• 32:55
  You're posting them for me. Yeah. Understand it's a big part of the mix. Tell me kind of, like, why do you think that is? Like, what's the psychology behind that?
• 33:02
  It's a deep question. Right? It's the psychology behind stories.
• 33:05
  Ania: Well, I can try. So stories is where your warmest audience is on Instagram. Okay? And there's no stories like Instagram stories. They don't exist on TikTok, nowhere else like they are on Instagram, but the amount of stickers, the amount of, you know, interactive things you can do, that's where your warmest audience is watching you every day.
• 33:25
  So they expect to be sold to, you know, eventually. So if you don't do any selling on there, if you don't add links to your freebies, we're really wasting in a very, you know, important part of the platform and a feature of Instagram. People remember when I used to refill Nespresso pods two years ago in my stories. It's the personal stuff too that should be going into Stories, what you're doing on a daily basis. It really is the fun place to be, and it's an easy way to sell to people because your warmest audience is always hanging out in Stories, clicking all your stickers, and they expect to be sold to.
• 33:59
  So you have to be selling to people in stories.
• 34:01
  Davina: Interesting. You also cross post to other platforms, but TikTok especially, I imagine, has a lot that's kind of makes sense if you're on Instagram to be cross posting to TikTok. What differences are you seeing for your clients between the two platforms?
• 34:15
  Ania: So whatever strategy we're using, it's either, you know, a TikTok strategy or an Instagram strategy, and then we cross post. The same stuff doesn't really work in the same way on these platforms. On TikTok, you need like two or three or four or five videos per day to make any difference on there. It's a strategy. So if a law firm that wants to exist on TikTok, get ready to be like pumping out sixty, seventy videos a month if you wanna make a difference on that platform.
• 34:42
  Davina: Wow. Wow. That's interesting.
• 34:44
  Ania: And then cross posting it back to Instagram, you don't need 60 videos a month on Instagram. You know, four to five posts a week is like, to me, like maximum. You really don't need more. So like the cross posting, the back and forth, it's not the best strategy because it's not focused. TikTok has to be TikTok focused strategy.
• 35:03
  Instagram strategy has to be Instagram focused.
• 35:06
  Davina: Yeah. It's interesting because you and I have experimented with cross posting on some other platforms. I think every platform has to have its own tweak. It has to be its own thing. And you may be able to do a little bit, but I found that it's not that fabulous when we've tried that.
• 35:20
  Because I think just like with people, they have their own personalities each platform. What advice would you have for a solo or small law firm who knows that they need to get that if they got a better strategy for social media, that it would probably help them get more clients. What two or three tips that you think might help them in getting started with that?
• 35:41
  Ania: I think if you're solo or small, you're probably still doing the posting yourself. Right? So at least getting some type of consulting once a month, what you should be posting, analysis of what you're posting for like an hour a month or whatever consultation with a social media manager or agency. I think that would be valuable if you are doing it yourself Because it's really hard to figure out all the changes that are happening to these apps while you're trying to practice law. Right?
• 36:09
  Actually be in your zone of genius. So I would say consult. I think it's a worthwhile thing to do with some money every month is do that consult. And if you have a law firm that is booming or growing, then I think it's almost a no brainer to hire a social media manager to help you run that piece of the business.
• 36:28
  Davina: Right. Anybody who listens to me, follows me knows I'm a huge advocate of outsourcing things that are not in your zone of genius. And I have had some clients say to me, but I love it. I enjoy it. And I like sitting up at night and creating memes or whatever.
• 36:43
  And what I usually recommend to them is do that for your personal account and enjoy it there. Because marketing strategy is really what we're talking about. With each of these platforms, if you're using them for marketing purposes to grow your business, to get more people aware of you, to get them to take action, to hire you when they have a need, all of those steps we're leading people through, there's a strategy to that. And even if you enjoy creating memes, if you're using social media to promote your business, you need a little bit more strategy behind that. I mean, that's what I have found, and I am a marketing strategist.
• 37:19
  But even that, from a standpoint, Anya is always she's the one who's the expert in the platform. So I may have ideas about content or what I wanna do or the messaging I wanna get out, but she's the one who helps me figure out the best way to get that out, to get what I'm looking for out of it. And I can't keep up with all the different platforms and all the different things that are going on, all the changes on all the platforms. Like, you're talking about, you know, the big shift that happened back in the fall of last year. And for people who aren't in the Instagram world, yeah, we heard about it maybe on the news, maybe not.
• 37:52
  We don't really remember. Right? And what does it mean? What does it all mean, Basil? Like, you know, we may not know.
• 37:57
  Right? Yeah. So I do think it helps when you have somebody. Also, I would say just as a little testimonial for Ask Gony Media. In my experience, I've worked with social media managers who, you know, post thing.
• 38:10
  They're not really social media managers. It's coordinators or people who post things for you on different social media. And what I have found works best for me is to find somebody who specializes in a certain social media platform because they do stay abreast of all the changes and they love it. They're passionate about it. There's a lot of things there that really make a difference.
• 38:28
  And that was the shift for me when I started working with Anya is that with Instagram, I had been on Facebook for years and I was ready to play in a different sandbox. And, you know, I had an account on Instagram that I didn't post that much on. So when I hired her for my business, we've grown it from nothing to, you know, I think we're at 5,000 now in eighteen months or something. So almost 5,000. Not quite there.
• 38:50
  We're not there. You guys need to go on and be following me on Instagram at Wealthy Woman Lawyer so we can get over 5,000. But I will say what I recommend to my clients is find people who are an expert in the one platform or one or two platforms we post Instagram and Facebook. But that really makes a difference because just hiring a coordinator, they're gonna do what you tell them to do. But what we're talking about here is being strategic.
• 39:15
  Ania: And every once in a while, you get an email. Would you like to hop on this trend, Kabina? You're like, yes, no, maybe. Right?
• 39:24
  Davina: Right. Absolutely. And it's really funny now because I'm conditioned. There are some trends that I've seen. I'm like, oh, we need to do that.
• 39:29
  And then I just haven't reached out about it. And then there are others that I'm like, no, that's not me. So I think that's something too that people need to realize is that it's a partnership, you know, just like any other aspect of marketing your business. I have people who help me with my podcast. It's a partnership.
• 39:45
  I'm telling them this is my brand and my messaging. And then they're bringing their expertise to the table to help me get the best quality out of what it is that we're doing. So I cannot stress enough how the value of that in terms of your business. And you know that I'm preaching to everybody all the time. Stop doing everything yourself.
• 40:04
  Stop doing it. Even though I'm a creative person, I can create things. I've got Canva. I'm a professional writer. I can do all of that.
• 40:12
  It's not that I don't have the ability. It's not the highest and best use of my time, which is why I wanted to have Anya on here today to talk to you guys about things you may not have thought about in terms of that. Let me ask you this. What is kind of the expectation of people when they come to you as far as getting clients from social media? Is there sort of a runway period for that, or is it something that's instantaneous?
• 40:37
  What are your thoughts on that?
• 40:38
  Ania: I love this question, Vina. So I always say, like, my job as a social media manager is to mirror your business on socials. Let's say on Instagram. And my job is to get you that organic traffic. What you do with that traffic once they're in your funnel, that is you or another person in your business.
• 40:58
  So my job is to get people into your funnel, whatever that funnel is. That's a podcast episode. It's your email list. That's your freebie. That's what I do.
• 41:07
  So if the sales come from it, they do. Right? Can you track them directly to like one post I made? It's difficult. Right?
• 41:15
  Davina: Right.
• 41:15
  Ania: So the sales itself is like on the business owner to be tracking, but my main job is not sales. It's organic lead generation and traffic. Right?
• 41:25
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. For people to think of it this way, it's really increasing your visibility. One thing we know for sure, people are not gonna hire you if they have no idea you exist and you offer the services that you offer. So there's different ways for people for you to get visible in front of your audience.
• 41:42
  And Instagram is not for everybody, but it is the absolute perfect solution for some people, but it is not for everybody. And I think people need to be aware of that. You can grab a copy of my book because I go through all of that in my book and talk about that specifically. But, you know, it can take some time to build an audience, and it can also take some time to build a curated audience. One of the things that Anya and I are doing, and it's a demand that I put on her that's different from other people, is that I want a curated audience.
• 42:11
  So the reason we're not over 10,000 already, which we could have been, is because she and I both have our eye on who these people are that are showing up. And, you know, over the weekend, there always seems to be a whole bunch of guys with one no post and, you know, they're following 300 people and nobody's following them. So we go through and we block, block, block, block. So I'm literally removing people from my list because I want it to be curated. I have a very specific audience, women law firm owners.
• 42:41
  Now we do have men law firm owners who follow me, and we have women lawyers who aren't law firm owners who follow me, and all of that is good and well. But, you know, the reason my list is 5,000 as opposed to 10,000 is because I'm keeping my eye on it and I'm curating it. A different type of business will have a different type of model. If I'm teaching general basic financial wealth foundations or whatever, I might allow people from all over the world to follow me and not worry about it. For lawyers, you mentioned you hit on this earlier, and I think this is important.
• 43:11
  If they are regional, which most law firms, unless they're in a federal, like, trademark law or they're an online law firm of some kind, then they're really wanting to get an audience of people who are regional, right, who are local to them. Are there any sort of tips that you have about that or ways that you sort of help people do that?
• 43:30
  Ania: Yeah. So both, like, regional and, like, more international, like, there's just a specific strategy for each. So for regional, we just use location hashtags to find people. Right? It's almost easier when you're physically like I call it brick and mortar.
• 43:44
  You have a brick and mortar. Right? Or if you're virtual, it's kind of harder because you have to look at where people who are posting on Instagram are posting from location wise. Because there are some restrictions on location that is harder to find if you're just like open to everybody. So there's just a different like growth strategy.
• 44:04
  Like talking about organics. Right? I'm never talking about ads because this is all organic that I'm talking about, which I love because it creates real communities. So, yeah, there's just a different strategy for each depending on if you're, you know, have a physical location or if you're a virtual law firm.
• 44:19
  Davina: Yeah. And I think this is the kind of thing that when you have somebody that is a specialist in Instagram is gonna be able to help you with as opposed to you. Because I think that's what people underestimate. The deep knowledge that if you're using it for business, if you're just using it for fun and you're just doing your own personal Instagram, who cares? Right?
• 44:36
  Just do what you wanna do. Have fun with it. But if you're using it as part of your marketing mix for business, which I see a lot of law firm owners are doing, especially smaller ones because it's budget friendly. I mean, can't be free, right, for posting content. It's awesome.
• 44:53
  But I do think the value of hiring somebody who's an expert in Instagram is that they bring that sort of knowledge and you don't have to figure it out and you don't have to think about it. We discussed one time, this is what I want. And then Anya knows and she knows what my goal is, what my agenda is. I work with clients all over The US and Canada, but, you know, sometimes we look at I've gotten calls from all over the world, you know, from people wanting to meet with me and talk with me. But when we start getting too heavy in one country or another, I'm like, okay, we need to dial it back.
• 45:24
  There's something we're hitting, we're missing here. Right? But that's the kind of thing she keeps an eye
• 45:29
  Ania: on for me. You know? And you said free. You know? Now you have this option to pay for Meta verified on Instagram and on Facebook.
• 45:37
  You can continue using Instagram for free, but there are benefits to be verified. I haven't seen it on your account, Devina, yet. There's always this box that comes up. You wanna be verified? I saw
• 45:46
  Davina: it. I saw it.
• 45:47
  Ania: You saw it? Oh.
• 45:48
  Davina: Yeah. I did. You also posted something about maybe not rushing to be verified. Yeah. Tell me about that.
• 45:55
  Ania: Yeah. So there is some type of glitch that when people are getting verified on Instagram or Facebook, Facebook requires like your government ID. There's some type of glitch that makes that your profile photo and then sometimes posts it to your Instagram, Your government ID.
• 46:11
  Davina: Wow. Yeah. ID theft much? So everybody knows where you live, how tall you are, and what your driver's license number is or whatever. No.
• 46:22
  That's bad. They're obviously they're on it. Right? They're probably trying to work through it.
• 46:26
  Ania: They're working on it, but then there's other issues with like, you know, people getting locked out of these accounts and that ID staying there, not being able to get back in. So I'm recommending to you to all my clients, don't do it yet. Let's wait until these glitches are figured out, which I'm sure they will be. Then it's probably a good idea to get verified. Helps with the trust factor, gives you access to somebody in Facebook if you have issues and there'll be, you know, other perks coming up.
• 46:53
  But mainly the trust factor is important, especially for law firms as well.
• 46:57
  Davina: Good to know. Because we definitely don't want our government issued ID up there for everybody to see. That's crazy. And we'll start social security up there too and we're done. It's already bad enough.
• 47:07
  You know, dark web's already got so much on all of us. So before we wrap up, anything that I haven't asked you or we haven't covered that you wanna leave people with?
• 47:17
  Ania: I would say that if you're a law firm owner, if you're solo or if, you know, you have, you know, a team with you, when it comes to social media, don't be afraid to experiment. Don't be afraid of, you know, I'm not gonna look professional if I start, you know, pointing to different directions on a reel. Don't be afraid to find a way to connect with a new audience through social media versus just relying on referrals. Right? Or just relying on kind of networking or older methods of connections.
• 47:46
  I think social media is only on the rise, especially when we saw with the pandemic, we needed somewhere to connect with people. So don't be afraid to experiment. Don't be afraid to try things. And if you feel like it's too much for you or not in your zone of genius, it's totally okay to outsource it. There are great people that are gonna be able to find your voice and to speak like you on social media.
• 48:07
  And it's worth it. Try it out.
• 48:09
  Davina: Yeah. Yeah. And I'll say that I found Anya by going to the platform where I was looking for somebody and I looked search for her on the platform that I was looking to have a social media manager handle for me. So there's a tip for you and how I found her. And of course, I've referred her to other people.
• 48:26
  But the other thing is if you like to dance on social media, then dance, have at it. If you'd like to lip sync, have at it. Don't worry about what other people think. Go ahead and do what it is. I just think it's key that you do things that are comfortable for you and maybe push yourself outside your comfort zone a little bit.
• 48:43
  And it's really more about revealing more about who you are as a person, not necessarily personal details of your life, but just kind of your personality. I know for me, I have a pretty dry, quick sense of humor. And people who've known me on Facebook for a long time, haven't been on Facebook for a while, consistency like I used to be. For those who met me on Facebook, you know that about me because I was always sharing things that were hilarious to me. And so what's one of the things in working with Anja is, you know, trying to reveal a little bit of my personality and my sense of humor and that kind of thing.
• 49:15
  It makes a difference because people do feel like they know you. And so when people have conversations with you, they feel like they know you. You're like, I don't have any idea who you are, but they're like, you know, oh, I know that you have this bulldog and, you know, this is what she looks like or whatever. Right? And so it does go a long way to sort of building that know, like, and trust factor before people ever actually have that first conversation with you.
• 49:37
  So I think that's great. And I love the tip about handling the objections in your social content. That's a great tip. So write that one down, guys. Alright.
• 49:46
  Thanks, Anya, for being here. We know we can find you on Instagram, but tell us all the details about how we can get in touch with you.
• 49:52
  Ania: I'm someone on Instagram at Ask Anya Media. My website, Ask Anya Media. Those are the two best ways to connect with me, and feel free to jump into my DMs if you have any quick questions or apply to work with me.
• 50:05
  Davina: Yeah. Be sure to tell them that you heard about her here on Wealthy Woman Lawyer. Alright. Thanks so much being here. I really enjoyed it.
• 50:11
  Ania: Thank you, Divina. Appreciate it.
• 50:14
  Intro: If you're ready to create more of what you truly desire in your business and your life, then you'll want to visit us at wealthywomanlawyer.com to learn more about how we help our clients create wealth generating law firms with ease.