Latest / Rugby Direct / Rugby Direct Episode 255: Cape Town Crisis? How the All Blacks Can Fight Back

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Rugby Direct Episode 255: Cape Town Crisis? How the All Blacks Can Fight Back · Rugby Direct

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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from Newstalk ZB. Follow this
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Speaker 1: and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. From
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Speaker 1: every angle, it's Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier,
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Speaker 1: powered by Newstalk ZB.
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Speaker 2: Welcome into Rugby Direct, powered by Forklift Solutions, lifting you
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Speaker 2: and your business to a higher level. Elliot Smith, Liam
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Speaker 2: Napier in Cape Town as we reflect on the second
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Speaker 2: test of rugby's greatest rivalry and one that has drawn
0:54
Speaker 2: the series level at one apiece, 33-26 South Africa. win
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Speaker 2: it and yep it's all set ready for games three
1:03
Speaker 2: and games four in this test series Liam what did
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Speaker 2: you make of the All Blacks performance and I guess
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Speaker 2: South Africa's as well?
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Speaker 3: It was another great occasion wasn't it Elliot sold out
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Speaker 3: Waterfront Stadium very picturesque impressive modern venue reminded me a
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Speaker 3: bit of Christchurch on a bigger scale without the roof
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Speaker 3: a couple of 747s or passenger planes Frightening the bejesus
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Speaker 3: out of most people?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was close, wasn't it? We were both there.
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Speaker 2: I thought it was going to skim the roof for
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Speaker 2: a moment.
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Speaker 3: It's 12 metres, one of those planes. And the other
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Speaker 3: one got hit by the pyrotechnics. So nowhere else in
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Speaker 3: the world but South Africa, I think you could try
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Speaker 3: and pull that off.
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Speaker 2: You could whack a Jetstar plane over Eden Park or
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Speaker 2: something like that.
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Speaker 3: Do you remember the blitters, though? They rolled out the
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Speaker 3: Air Force, which.
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Speaker 2: Is a very.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, nice try, but yeah. Pales in comparison, doesn't it? Look, first,
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Speaker 3: second test. We knew the backlash was coming. Everyone knew it.
2:02
Speaker 3: The All Blacks knew it. And I wouldn't say they
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Speaker 3: were powerless to stop it, but the Bucs were thoroughly
2:09
Speaker 3: deserving of the win. They came out of the blocks.
2:12
Speaker 3: They led from start to finish. I never felt like
2:15
Speaker 3: the All Blacks were going to win that game. They
2:17
Speaker 3: were always chasing their tail. Once again, they... Won the
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Speaker 3: last quarter and I think showed a lot of character
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Speaker 3: and heart because a lot of teams would have buckled
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Speaker 3: and been blown out under that sort of pressure. And
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Speaker 3: I think it's a case of being disappointed but not disheartened.
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Speaker 3: There's enough to take out of that game for the
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Speaker 3: All Blacks. Their attack still functioning very well on the edges.
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Speaker 3: But some concerns as well. The line-out faltered big time.
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Speaker 3: Discipline remains a bit of an issue today. Can't catch
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Speaker 3: many high balls at all. There's no quick fix solution
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Speaker 3: in sight there. So some worrying things, but I think
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Speaker 3: there's enough to unpack there. And then there was plenty
3:01
Speaker 3: of antics around the game and off the field, wasn't there?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there certainly were. We'll get into that as we
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Speaker 2: roll through. Completely agree that it was a game the
3:10
Speaker 2: All Blacks always felt like they were chasing from the
3:13
Speaker 2: opening 90 seconds and.
3:17
Speaker 2: Similarly, I guess, to go back six, seven years to
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Speaker 2: the semi-final against England in Yokohama. Was it Tokyo? I
3:24
Speaker 2: can't really remember. It was there. I can't remember where
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Speaker 2: exactly it was. But England started really strongly. South Africa
3:31
Speaker 2: started really strongly yesterday and always felt like the All
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Speaker 2: Blacks were behind the eight ball. The All Blacks played
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Speaker 2: better yesterday than they certainly did six years ago, but
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Speaker 2: it was a game that they were always chasing and
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Speaker 2: never quite were able to cut the gap significantly enough,
3:46
Speaker 2: they were close for periods and would balloon out again.
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Speaker 3: Down by 10 at half time, down by 16 in
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Speaker 3: the second half.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you're right, they did well to rally
3:54
Speaker 2: and get to within seven and give themselves at least
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Speaker 2: a chance of potentially snatching a draw out of it
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Speaker 2: and again turning the series on its head, but ultimately
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Speaker 2: they weren't good enough to do so and just left
4:05
Speaker 2: themselves a lot of work to do in the final quarter.
4:08
Speaker 2: So Yeah, I think a step backwards, weirdly, from Alice Park,
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Speaker 2: even though they might have actually played for longer patches
4:15
Speaker 2: better than that because they were just having to chase
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Speaker 2: the game. So, yeah, disappointment for the All Blacks, I think, because, again,
4:24
Speaker 2: we're looking at a test where they haven't been able
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Speaker 2: to stamp their mark on a test match, and while
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Speaker 2: that worked out for them last week because they had
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Speaker 2: a couple of twists in the narrative that were able
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Speaker 2: to turn the match... Yesterday they weren't able to find
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Speaker 2: a way to bend the game to their will. And again,
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Speaker 2: this time it now has them on the losing side
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Speaker 2: of the ledger.
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Speaker 3: It's interesting because there's a lot of statistics which would
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Speaker 3: suggest that the All Blacks dominated that game. They ran
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Speaker 3: for vastly more post-contact metres. They made the Springboks miss
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Speaker 3: 39 tackles, which is the most defenders the All Blacks
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Speaker 3: have beaten since 2009. And that speaks to their attack.
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Speaker 3: But they weren't clinical enough. There was just top-of-the-head moments.
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Speaker 3: McKenzie went through early and put that grubber kick in
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Speaker 3: rather than going inside to Cam Roygate, who was screaming
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Speaker 3: out for the ball. There was one occasion when they
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Speaker 3: were hot on attack and Luke Jacobson gives away a
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Speaker 3: dumb penalty, just unnecessary, off the ball. And I think
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Speaker 3: the Springboks go on to collect six points after that.
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Speaker 3: There was a line out five metres out that they lost.
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Speaker 3: Just really crucial moments that the All Blacks didn't seize.
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Speaker 3: So they are creating enough, but you have to be
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Speaker 3: ruthless and take those chances against the box.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Tupo Vai with the obstruction call as well was
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Speaker 2: another one, and they considered far fewer penalties than Ellis Park.
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Speaker 2: It was 8-4, but again, that's double the Springboks count,
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Speaker 2: and that's one every 10 minutes, and for the Springboks
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Speaker 2: was one every 20, and that does make a difference
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Speaker 2: in terms of the game. They just weren't able to...
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Speaker 2: When they did concede penalties, they were silly penalties. Their
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Speaker 2: discipline was a lot better, but when they did come,
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Speaker 2: they got themselves in a bit of trouble because of it,
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Speaker 2: and we saw South Africa more willing to take the
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Speaker 2: shots at goal through Cheslin Colby than they were at
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Speaker 2: Alice Park. They were willing to put that scoreboard pressure on,
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Speaker 2: and when you're steering up at, what was it, 33-16
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Speaker 2: from memory or whatever it was.
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Speaker 2: You know, that is when you're in, you know, you
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Speaker 2: have to chase the game. It gets into your head mentally.
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Speaker 2: And credit to South Africa. That was really smart rugby
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Speaker 2: for them.
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Speaker 3: Well, they were never going to be as wasteful, the Springboks.
6:42
Speaker 3: What was it? I think they converted one from 11
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Speaker 3: or one from 10 entries into the All Blacks 22
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Speaker 3: at Alice Park. So they were far more ruthless when
6:54
Speaker 3: they got in range. They took the points, as you said,
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Speaker 3: with Cheslin Colby, but they also converted scoring three tries.
7:03
Speaker 3: So what the Springboks did, they did really well. Their
7:06
Speaker 3: line-out was exceptional. Eben Estibet and Peter Stief de Toit
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Speaker 3: put a huge amount of pressure. I thought in the
7:11
Speaker 3: first test it was notable the box didn't contest a lot. Well,
7:15
Speaker 3: this time they went really hard for it and got
7:17
Speaker 3: great rewards. Dave Rennie sort of talked about the All
7:20
Speaker 3: Blacks won 15 of 18 line-outs, but that skews the
7:24
Speaker 3: picture drastically because Even there was a couple of long
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Speaker 3: throws that the All Blacks bouncing ball got hold of
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Speaker 3: and the ball they did win was scrappy. So that
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Speaker 3: platform was faulty. It was under massive pressure and that
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Speaker 3: did affect them. But for all that the Springboks did well,
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Speaker 3: it wasn't frightening because you look at the completion of
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Speaker 3: the second half, they only got nine points. And the
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Speaker 3: All Blacks again, Won that last quarter. Their bench added
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Speaker 3: massive impact. And the Springboks' back line for me is
8:03
Speaker 3: just not really firing any shots. I know Damien Delende
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Speaker 3: scored and they might have had moments, but they're not creating,
8:12
Speaker 3: they're not threatening. It's their forward pack that's their weapon.
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Speaker 3: And as we sit here now, I don't know how
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Speaker 3: the All Blacks feel, but I'm not intimidated by what
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Speaker 3: their back line in particular is bringing at all.
8:26
Speaker 2: But is that by design?
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Speaker 3: Well, it is because they go to the air so often.
8:30
Speaker 3: And I felt Kovac Ranak made a massive difference, both
8:34
Speaker 3: in his control from the base, very astute kicking game.
8:38
Speaker 3: But that is their game plan. They're not using the ball.
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Speaker 3: They don't really want to. And their kicking game is
8:45
Speaker 3: exceptionally effective. But maybe you have to force them to
8:51
Speaker 3: do a bit more. They were clinging on at the
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Speaker 3: death of that game, having... dominated for large periods again. So, look,
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Speaker 3: they deserve their win, but I do feel that, you know,
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Speaker 3: casting ahead to that third test, that there is enough
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Speaker 3: for the All Blacks to take out of that.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was. And they'll be disappointed that they didn't get,
9:11
Speaker 2: or play their best rugby, I guess, for, you know,
9:14
Speaker 2: the early parts of the game. I can see that
9:16
Speaker 2: in the first couple of minutes, you know, a wonky
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Speaker 2: Geordie Barrett, Clara Insapora, or line-out drive from South Africa
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Speaker 2: that just sets up that first try. So there are
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Speaker 2: quite a few moments that individually I think they want back. And,
9:32
Speaker 2: you know, Jase Ryan said to us today when we
9:34
Speaker 2: spoke to him media-wise that, you know, little things often,
9:37
Speaker 2: you know, add up to become big things. And it
9:39
Speaker 2: felt like there were a lot of little mistakes. that
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Speaker 2: ended up being quite impactful on the 80 minutes.
9:45
Speaker 3: Well, they do need to address the starts because it's
9:47
Speaker 3: twice now they've allowed the spring box to get a
9:50
Speaker 3: roll on, to get momentum, to feed off the crowds,
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Speaker 3: and that's the last thing you want in South Africa.
9:56
Speaker 3: They're already rabid. They're already stoked up on Castle and
10:02
Speaker 3: Clippies and whatever else. So the All Blacks do need
10:06
Speaker 3: to address their sluggish start. It's great they're finishing well,
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Speaker 3: but you don't want to give the Springboks that sort of,
10:13
Speaker 3: you don't want to fuel their fire.
10:14
Speaker 2: No, you don't. I think the All Blacks need to
10:19
Speaker 2: be a bit more patient and willing to build pressure.
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Speaker 2: And this has been an ongoing bugbear of mine for
10:26
Speaker 2: the All Blacks is that And look, under this Rennie
10:30
Speaker 2: style of play, I get it because they wanted to
10:32
Speaker 2: play immediately and quickly. But I think they can do
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Speaker 2: better at building pressure inside the 22. And yet we
10:41
Speaker 2: had a couple of mistakes and various things or whatever
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Speaker 2: it might be. They had nine entries into South Africa's
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Speaker 2: 22 during that game. And often I just think that.
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Speaker 3: What was the conversion?
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Speaker 2: Well, they got 2.8 points from that, so.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's quite a significant drop from the first test.
10:57
Speaker 2: Yeah. I just feel that the more you ask teams
11:00
Speaker 2: to tackle inside the 22, the more it invites offside penalties,
11:05
Speaker 2: the more you bring fatigue into the game. And the
11:06
Speaker 2: All Blacks have talked a lot about wanting to bring
11:08
Speaker 2: fatigue into the game, and I often think that the
11:11
Speaker 2: kicking game wasn't right yesterday, but also they're not willing to...
11:15
Speaker 2: They're looking to score, and I get it, but they're
11:18
Speaker 2: looking to score off first phase, second phase play, whereas...
11:23
Speaker 2: the more the Springboks are asked to tackle, and they
11:25
Speaker 2: missed 40 of them yesterday, you can bring in fatigue
11:28
Speaker 2: because the players are having to get up and go again.
11:31
Speaker 2: If you're backing your fitness, then I think you've got
11:32
Speaker 2: to be willing to ask more questions of the South
11:35
Speaker 2: Africans inside the 22 when you're on attack. Now, credit
11:38
Speaker 2: to South Africa. They defused a lot of the New
11:40
Speaker 2: Zealand attempts at doing so, but I just think New
11:42
Speaker 2: Zealand can be better at building pressure and trying to
11:46
Speaker 2: convert that into points.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. It's good points, I think. there's probably the tendency,
11:52
Speaker 3: like you say, to want to score a first fave,
11:54
Speaker 3: to push the pass, to use those quick hands, to
11:56
Speaker 3: offload off the ground, maybe when it's not on, rather
11:58
Speaker 3: than to reset and go again. So patience is a
12:01
Speaker 3: big part of that. And I agree about their attacking kicks.
12:04
Speaker 3: It was clearly a plan, particularly in the first half,
12:06
Speaker 3: to chip over or grub a room behind that spring
12:09
Speaker 3: box rush defense to try and manipulate that defense. And
12:13
Speaker 3: the All Blacks felt like they got some pay later
12:15
Speaker 3: in the game by stretching them a little bit. But
12:18
Speaker 3: For me, it was wasteful. I can't remember many, if any,
12:22
Speaker 3: of those attacking kicks that they regathered.
12:25
Speaker 2: A lot went to Willems, you know, straight down his throat,
12:27
Speaker 2: or he didn't have to make ground up in the
12:28
Speaker 2: 22 to cover. He was finding them relatively easily.
12:32
Speaker 3: So maybe the plan had some validity to it, but
12:36
Speaker 3: the execution wasn't there.
12:39
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I thought the back line was a little bit
12:41
Speaker 2: clunky as well. Roman Love had a couple of nice
12:46
Speaker 2: moments in the lead-up to the first try. scored by
12:50
Speaker 2: Cam Roygard.
12:51
Speaker 3: Sweeping move on Will Jordan down the outside.
12:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I just felt that in a test match
12:57
Speaker 2: like that, and he wasn't getting the greatest platform, so
13:00
Speaker 2: there is an asterisk next to it or a reason
13:02
Speaker 2: behind that. We talk about the line-out, but just felt
13:04
Speaker 2: like he needs to take the game by the scruff
13:07
Speaker 2: of the neck a little bit, as the great tens do,
13:09
Speaker 2: and stand up and get his team out of trouble
13:11
Speaker 2: or into the right areas of the park and change
13:14
Speaker 2: that pendulum swing. So I'm sure he would have learned
13:17
Speaker 2: a lot from it, but I just felt like he
13:20
Speaker 2: went into his shell a little bit or wasn't really
13:22
Speaker 2: able to contain that rush defence that South Africa were bringing.
13:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think he, there
13:29
Speaker 3: wasn't as commanding as you'd like him to be. I
13:30
Speaker 3: think there were moments of hesitancy, both off the boot
13:34
Speaker 3: and with ball on hand. And I think McKenzie had
13:36
Speaker 3: elements of that as well when, like we talked about,
13:39
Speaker 3: when you're having to chase the game, when you're doubting
13:41
Speaker 3: whether to run, kick or pass, when the space closes
13:45
Speaker 3: or the defence gets up in your face. So, that
13:49
Speaker 3: Love-McKenzie axis has worked very well this year. It's still
13:53
Speaker 3: in its infancy. What are we, five tests into the
13:55
Speaker 3: Rennie regime, and this is their first loss, first setback,
13:58
Speaker 3: so it'll be interesting to see how they respond to that. But, yeah,
14:03
Speaker 3: I think not Ruben Love's best test, but he did
14:06
Speaker 3: have his moments as well.
14:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, no-one had an out-and-out bad test, I don't think.
14:11
Speaker 2: It was just that no-one had, you know... absolute storming
14:15
Speaker 2: test that you go, okay, this is the.
14:17
Speaker 3: Or Lee Ricciardo.
14:17
Speaker 2: Lee Ricciardo was probably the All Blacks best on ground.
14:20
Speaker 2: But other than that, you know, they didn't have a
14:23
Speaker 2: sort of a talismanic figure or someone that.
14:26
Speaker 3: That says.
14:27
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:28
Speaker 3: I thought it was Ardy's best test of the year. Yep. Yeah. But, yeah,
14:32
Speaker 3: there wasn't a.
14:33
Speaker 2: But I've seen him play better tests, you know what
14:34
Speaker 2: I mean?
14:34
Speaker 3: A defining moment where someone's saying, hey, I'm going here,
14:38
Speaker 3: you're going to follow me, and we're going to steal
14:40
Speaker 3: this from the brink.
14:42
Speaker 2: And, again, that adds up to... those little things that
14:45
Speaker 2: we talked about. So the All Blacks are just slightly
14:47
Speaker 2: off their game, and that contributed to them losing. South Africa,
14:52
Speaker 2: on the other hand, we've talked a lot about the
14:54
Speaker 2: All Blacks, but South Africa, a lot more direct. It
14:57
Speaker 2: felt like it didn't rely on Jasper Wiese as much.
14:59
Speaker 2: In fact, I thought he was shut down pretty well
15:00
Speaker 2: by the All Blacks, who was so big for the
15:03
Speaker 2: Springboks in the opening week. But they were just a
15:06
Speaker 2: lot tidier. And we talked about the amount of ball
15:09
Speaker 2: they turned over in the first test, where they cut
15:11
Speaker 2: that right down. We talked before about scoreboard pressure, but
15:14
Speaker 2: they just did the smart things well. The Springboks can
15:17
Speaker 2: be pretty pleased with that bounce-back performance because they're under
15:21
Speaker 2: a bit of heat after losing that first game, and
15:23
Speaker 2: they've responded.
15:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think more effective and accurate. So the conversions
15:28
Speaker 3: in the 22, taking the points on offer, pressuring and
15:33
Speaker 3: feeding off the All Blacks' mistakes. Again, it wasn't anything revolutionary.
15:38
Speaker 3: It wasn't anything the All Blacks didn't know was coming.
15:41
Speaker 3: But what they did, they did well. And it's the
15:43
Speaker 3: high ball, it's the maul. The scrum wasn't nearly as effective.
15:49
Speaker 3: Five penalties in a row at Alice Park. Well, there
15:52
Speaker 3: was probably only one moment that I recall where having
15:57
Speaker 3: switched the front rows around just before halftime, the box
16:01
Speaker 3: get that scrum five metres out from Neil Black's line.
16:04
Speaker 3: Russie injects Oxnish and Malcolm Marks. The Springboks get a
16:08
Speaker 3: scrum penalty, put down another scrum, and Khaleesi scores. But
16:11
Speaker 3: apart from that, I don't recall any moments where you
16:15
Speaker 3: could say the Springboks scrum dominated the All Blacks.
16:20
Speaker 2: No, although Russie Erasmus had a different take on it post-game.
16:24
Speaker 3: Well, it was quite bizarre, wasn't it, to see a
16:27
Speaker 3: winning head coach basically lose the plot. Yeah.
16:32
Speaker 2: But I don't think you could do that as a
16:34
Speaker 2: losing head coach, necessarily. You kind of need to come
16:37
Speaker 2: from that position of power or gravitas because you've won
16:42
Speaker 2: the game, then go, what are the All Blacks complaining about?
16:46
Speaker 2: You know, we had four headshots, the All Blacks couldn't scrum, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
16:50
Speaker 2: we're not walking around, F bomb this, shit this, that,
16:54
Speaker 2: you know. It was the kind of rant that was
16:58
Speaker 2: a little weird to be in the room watching it,
17:00
Speaker 2: but you can only probably deliver that when you win,
17:03
Speaker 2: I guess.
17:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's certainly smack of a sore loser if you
17:07
Speaker 3: come off like that. But it does add to the
17:10
Speaker 3: theatrics of it all. And look, it's interesting because the
17:14
Speaker 3: All Blacks are maintaining their position. Dave Rennie, again, post-match,
17:19
Speaker 3: putting out the fact that the Springboks are walking around,
17:21
Speaker 3: stepping to the left. And then Jason Ryan, when we
17:24
Speaker 3: spoke to him today, doubling down that World Rugby wants
17:27
Speaker 3: you to scrum square and suggesting that that is in
17:31
Speaker 3: fact the case. So it's clearly a point of tension,
17:34
Speaker 3: it's something that Springboks pride themselves on. What about just the,
17:39
Speaker 3: without going into it too much, the technicalities of it,
17:41
Speaker 3: that the All Blacks believe that when the scrums are
17:44
Speaker 3: setting up, that Oxnich is stepping to his left, which
17:49
Speaker 3: allows Malcolm Marks as hooker and Oxnich to drive through
17:53
Speaker 3: the tight head prop who has been Tyrell Lomax and
17:57
Speaker 3: From what we understand, the All Blacks are trying to
18:00
Speaker 3: step left to align with them and that's where some
18:03
Speaker 3: of the scrum resets are taking place. I'm no scrum
18:06
Speaker 3: expert but that's my understanding.
18:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds about right. I'm no scrum expert either
18:13
Speaker 2: and so trying to offer an opinion on that, I'm
18:17
Speaker 2: finding it a little bit of a battle because I'm
18:20
Speaker 2: sure that the All Blacks believe they're genuinely doing things
18:23
Speaker 2: the right way and I I'm sure the Springboks genuinely
18:26
Speaker 2: believe they're doing things the right way. And at some point,
18:29
Speaker 2: it's on a technicality or whatever it is that referees
18:33
Speaker 2: are interpreting week to week. There's a lot of chat
18:36
Speaker 2: about the break foot. Out there at the moment, it
18:38
Speaker 2: was a big bugbear. The All Blacks got pinged there
18:40
Speaker 2: a lot at the start of the tour. So I'm
18:44
Speaker 2: sure both camps believe they're in the right and they're
18:47
Speaker 2: probably not going to... Back down. Back down, exactly. So.
18:52
Speaker 2: It's going to be a week-to-week proposition probably in the
18:54
Speaker 2: series for Nick Amishikelli and then Carl Dixon in Baltimore
18:59
Speaker 2: to try and figure out. So, yeah, there are more
19:04
Speaker 2: qualified people than I that would be able to offer
19:06
Speaker 2: an opinion on that.
19:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, rugby's such a technical game. You can pull
19:11
Speaker 3: out any instance or clip up. Look, there was that
19:13
Speaker 3: clip of, was it Damien Delende's try where Dionne Fourie
19:20
Speaker 3: potentially ran into obstruction. I think it was on Simon Parker.
19:23
Speaker 3: The All Blacks had a lot of gripes about Angus
19:25
Speaker 3: Gartner's policing or lack of at the breakdown, managing that,
19:31
Speaker 3: telling players to roll away rather than penalise them, which
19:33
Speaker 3: compromised the speed of the ruck ball. Russie Erasmus makes
19:37
Speaker 3: the point about head contact. So, look, there's so many
19:39
Speaker 3: instances in any rugby match that you can pull out...
19:43
Speaker 3: I think, again, as with the first test, I would
19:45
Speaker 3: say there was no one flashpoint or officiating moment of
19:49
Speaker 3: that game that determined the result.
19:51
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so either. I thought Angus had
19:52
Speaker 2: a fine game. There was complaints from Seik Alisa. after
19:58
Speaker 2: the All Blacks first try because Thomas Dettoy was getting
20:02
Speaker 2: some treatment and he felt the game should have been stopped,
20:04
Speaker 2: but they played on. The high shots, as you mentioned,
20:07
Speaker 2: via Russie and Seah Khaleesi also brought those to Angus
20:13
Speaker 2: Gardiner as well. But I didn't feel like it was
20:15
Speaker 2: a big call either way that swung it. It was
20:16
Speaker 2: South Africa who being the dominant team and ultimately being
20:20
Speaker 2: good enough to win it. The All Blacks bench, I
20:26
Speaker 2: don't think they got the selections of this right. And
20:29
Speaker 2: it's easy to say this in hindsight, but Josh Mulby
20:35
Speaker 2: wasn't the kind of player that could have come on
20:36
Speaker 2: and had an influence in that game. And he didn't
20:39
Speaker 2: come on the field at all. I think they would
20:42
Speaker 2: have been better off And I don't know that he's
20:44
Speaker 2: a bench player full stop. I think he either starts,
20:46
Speaker 2: and he's been very good in that role, or he
20:49
Speaker 2: isn't in the 23. I'm just looking for a bit
20:52
Speaker 2: more out of a bench player like that. And again,
20:55
Speaker 2: easy to say the way the game panned out, but
20:58
Speaker 2: whether a Rico Ioane might have been a better pick
21:01
Speaker 2: or a bigger body like a Fiji potentially. Yeah, I
21:06
Speaker 2: just felt like that maybe they got that one wrong.
21:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, in hindsight, it feels like a bit of an
21:11
Speaker 3: insurance policy, doesn't it? That if a wing goes down,
21:14
Speaker 3: you've got another one there. But I agree. If I'm
21:16
Speaker 3: selecting the bench right now, Rico Awani is my midfield
21:20
Speaker 3: cover because you've already got two capable second fives in
21:27
Speaker 3: Quintipaia and Geordie Barrett. And then I'm having probably Amoni
21:31
Speaker 3: Narawa because he can cover wing, fullback. He's a big
21:37
Speaker 3: body guy. Very skillful. I think he's played well on
21:41
Speaker 3: this tour. This game was probably a bit early, wasn't it,
21:43
Speaker 3: given those guys played 80 minutes on Tuesday. But I
21:46
Speaker 3: think they come very much into the reckoning for this
21:49
Speaker 3: third test. And at this point, I'm taking the risk
21:54
Speaker 3: and I'm starting to suffer more as well. I think
21:57
Speaker 3: he's been excellent off the bench. He's such a dynamic
22:01
Speaker 3: presence with ball in hands. I understand the risk with
22:04
Speaker 3: the line-out throwing, but I don't think Cody's been perfect either.
22:08
Speaker 3: and so I'm willing to go that way. And you
22:12
Speaker 3: could either put Cody Taylor on the bench or you
22:14
Speaker 3: could give him a week off and put Samersonia. That's
22:16
Speaker 3: a huge call because this is a test centurion. He's
22:19
Speaker 3: in the leadership group, highly valued by Dave Rennie, but
22:22
Speaker 3: I just feel like the All Blacks have looked so
22:24
Speaker 3: much better with Asafa Amu on the field.
22:27
Speaker 2: I'm going to go a different tack and say Asafa Amu,
22:29
Speaker 2: apart from the line-out throwing, which needs sorting out, that's
22:33
Speaker 2: exactly what the All Blacks should be wanting out of
22:35
Speaker 2: their bench in the closing stages of the game.
22:38
Speaker 3: He could bring it from the start where they've struggled.
22:41
Speaker 2: He could, but you're playing against tiring defences and you've
22:44
Speaker 2: got this big but also short wrecking ball that's coming
22:49
Speaker 2: through and carrying against tired defences. I think if you're
22:53
Speaker 2: going to make a change at hooker, I'm starting Samisoni
22:56
Speaker 2: and keeping Asafa Amor on the bench and giving him...
22:59
Speaker 2: We've talked about this room with Bomb Squad for so
23:02
Speaker 2: many years. Now, we'll get into their selections, what they
23:05
Speaker 2: did yesterday in a moment, but You know, they used
23:07
Speaker 2: to have Malcolm Marks come off the bench. Now, Malcolm
23:10
Speaker 2: Marks probably still is the best hooker in the world.
23:13
Speaker 2: He had an issue with the line-out throwing for a
23:15
Speaker 2: little bit, but seems to have overcome that. He's a
23:18
Speaker 2: better player than Bongi Mbanambi, but he'll come off the
23:21
Speaker 2: bench as part of that bomb squad and be able
23:23
Speaker 2: to change the game. So I think we're too quick
23:26
Speaker 2: sometimes to go, he's playing well off the bench, put
23:28
Speaker 2: him in the starting side.
23:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a fair point, but I'm still starting him.
23:33
Speaker 3: And I'm giving him 60 minutes to... and then bringing
23:37
Speaker 3: either Cody on to close out the game or Samsoni.
23:41
Speaker 3: I just think the All Blacks ball pack, I know
23:45
Speaker 3: they ran for a lot more metres, but that was
23:46
Speaker 3: again out wide. I think there's very few players in
23:49
Speaker 3: that forward pack that are bending and breaking the spring
23:51
Speaker 3: box line. I think Asafa Amor is one, and I
23:54
Speaker 3: think Peter Lakai is another to a lesser degree. And
23:57
Speaker 3: I think at this point you need to be harnessing
24:00
Speaker 3: some fresh legs, some impact, and I've been... Really impressed
24:05
Speaker 3: by our sufferer. Jason Ryan also said today that Luke
24:10
Speaker 3: Jacobson had the flu, and that could potentially lead to
24:14
Speaker 3: a change. Jacobson's had a big workload. Fabian Holland and
24:19
Speaker 3: Tupu Vai have also played two 80-minute shifts. What, if any,
24:24
Speaker 3: other changes can you envision, particularly to that forward pack?
24:28
Speaker 3: I don't envision maybe many in the back line.
24:30
Speaker 2: No, I don't think there'll be many in the back
24:32
Speaker 2: line either. It's interesting, isn't it? This is the first
24:36
Speaker 2: time in, what, 30 years they're going to play the
24:38
Speaker 2: Springboks three weeks in a row, and this takes it
24:40
Speaker 2: out of you. But the best players in the world
24:43
Speaker 2: should be able to play three big weeks in a row.
24:44
Speaker 2: You have to do it at a rugby World Cup.
24:47
Speaker 2: But I also don't think it's realistic, you know, given
24:49
Speaker 2: the tour game load before then. Not everyone played, you know,
24:53
Speaker 2: big minutes, but they did play quite a lot of minutes.
24:57
Speaker 2: And there's also the injuries. We've talked about Anton Cegner, obviously,
25:02
Speaker 2: not being part of this tour anymore, although I did
25:04
Speaker 2: see him walking on a clip on Instagram yesterday, and
25:07
Speaker 2: it sounds like he's going to be good to go
25:08
Speaker 2: for the Bladders Live. Regardless, I think there'll be... I
25:13
Speaker 2: can see that hooker change, potentially. I wonder whether they
25:16
Speaker 2: might look at bringing Lomax off the bench this week
25:19
Speaker 2: and just switching him and Fletcher Newell around, just to
25:23
Speaker 2: present a little bit of a different picture, potentially, assuming
25:27
Speaker 2: that Oxenchair starts... the test in Soweto.
25:32
Speaker 3: We've got Ethan De Groot and Josh Lord. Probably sounds
25:37
Speaker 3: like they'll both be cleared from their HIAs. Ethan De
25:40
Speaker 3: Groot's a bit more doubtful because he's got a bit
25:42
Speaker 3: of a ligament issue with his knee. What are you
25:45
Speaker 3: doing with Josh Lord?
25:47
Speaker 2: Well, I think you have to consider that the scrum
25:49
Speaker 2: in the first test wasn't working and it changed markedly
25:55
Speaker 2: obviously when they replaced the front row but also when
25:58
Speaker 2: Tupo Vai went back into the second row. So I'm
26:03
Speaker 2: in two minds about what to do. I think Josh
26:05
Speaker 2: Lord probably starts. Fabian Holland's had a big workload coming
26:10
Speaker 2: back from his shoulder. He's played two 80-minute test matches
26:12
Speaker 2: in a row. We thought that maybe he'd come back
26:13
Speaker 2: for Cape Town. He's ended up playing 160 minutes. I
26:17
Speaker 2: wonder whether you start Sam Derry alongside potentially Josh Lord.
26:24
Speaker 3: I think that's too lightweight in the front row. It
26:27
Speaker 3: compromises your scrum. I think... Josh Lord comes into the picture.
26:35
Speaker 3: Maybe it's for Paddy on the bench.
26:37
Speaker 2: Right. Would you start Simon Parker again at blind? So
26:40
Speaker 2: I thought he had probably his best test.
26:42
Speaker 3: I think he did as well. Yeah, it would be
26:44
Speaker 3: rough to drop him on that performance. They do need
26:48
Speaker 3: to find a fix for the line-out, but you don't
26:50
Speaker 3: want to do that with compromising your scrum, so it's
26:52
Speaker 3: a very delicate balancing act. The All Blacks have favoured
26:55
Speaker 3: Josh Lord in a big way. He would have played
26:58
Speaker 3: this test, probably started... maybe, but I agree with you.
27:03
Speaker 3: I don't think Holland and Lorde work as a starting combination.
27:07
Speaker 3: I think that compromises your scrum. So I think Tupu
27:11
Speaker 3: Vai probably starts at lock again, maybe with Holland, but yeah,
27:17
Speaker 3: I don't know if those guys could go 80 minutes again.
27:21
Speaker 2: Parker, again, a blindside, or do you look to someone
27:24
Speaker 2: like Peter Lukai? potentially on the open side.
27:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Luck I could come in at open side.
27:30
Speaker 2: And then maybe if Jacobson doesn't play, and look, he
27:34
Speaker 2: came off the flu last night, in theory he should
27:36
Speaker 2: be better, but I just wonder with that workload he's had,
27:38
Speaker 2: whether they do look for something different. Do you bring
27:40
Speaker 2: a Blackadder off the bench?
27:42
Speaker 3: Yep, he's another guy that comes into the picture. You
27:45
Speaker 3: could drop Jacobson to the bench or Blackadder comes into
27:50
Speaker 3: the mix. It probably depends on how they assess a
27:53
Speaker 3: performance against the Lions as opposed to the Springboks. It's
27:57
Speaker 3: one thing to look good against a franchise team in
28:01
Speaker 3: a midweek match than a trilogy game. And just on that, Elliot,
28:09
Speaker 3: this game for me definitively decides the series. Baltimore can
28:15
Speaker 3: get in the sea.
28:16
Speaker 2: You're not going to Baltimore.
28:17
Speaker 3: Exactly.
28:20
Speaker 2: Nobody counts if you were there.
28:22
Speaker 3: No, no, no. There's just such a contextual difference to
28:28
Speaker 3: winning two tests, two out of three tests on South
28:31
Speaker 3: African soil than there is in a money-making test in
28:35
Speaker 3: the States. For me, if the All Blacks win this weekend,
28:38
Speaker 3: they win the series. And the same for the box,
28:41
Speaker 3: to be honest. You can't have a bob each way.
28:44
Speaker 3: I understand the financials around rugby and why the game
28:51
Speaker 3: is going to Baltimore, but winning on South African soil
28:56
Speaker 3: is so much more difficult, so much more special in
28:59
Speaker 3: the context of history than something on neutral venue.
29:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree. Look.
29:09
Speaker 3: The team would never say that, but I'm allowed to
29:11
Speaker 3: say that.
29:11
Speaker 2: You're allowed to say it. Exactly right. I completely understand
29:14
Speaker 2: why they've gone there. And maybe the money would have
29:16
Speaker 2: been different if it wasn't part of the official series.
29:19
Speaker 2: But I would have, whether it's a week later or
29:23
Speaker 2: two weeks later even, I would have labelled it the rematch.
29:27
Speaker 2: And it wouldn't matter what happened, whether it was South
29:29
Speaker 2: Africa 3-0 or New Zealand 3-0 or 2-1, whatever it is.
29:33
Speaker 2: It's a chance of revenge in a week's time. And...
29:36
Speaker 2: That's what I would have branded it as. It's still
29:38
Speaker 2: rugby's greatest rivalry, but it's the rematch. It's not part
29:41
Speaker 2: of the series. It's still a test match. It's still
29:44
Speaker 2: a capped game. It's still very important, but it doesn't
29:47
Speaker 2: form part of the series. They would have had to
29:50
Speaker 2: change the trophy, but that could be done. But I
29:55
Speaker 2: agree that because of the travel factor, because of removing
30:01
Speaker 2: a host country out of it, there are so many...
30:04
Speaker 2: different things and the series has always been open to
30:06
Speaker 2: interpretation and I agree whoever wins next week is is
30:09
Speaker 2: you know can classify themselves as a serious.
30:11
Speaker 3: Winner yeah I think you'll see that with the nature
30:14
Speaker 3: of the teams come Baltimore as well I think there
30:15
Speaker 3: will be potentially mass changes for that team given you've
30:20
Speaker 3: just played three brutal tests you're traveling to the other
30:23
Speaker 3: side of the world all those sorts of things so
30:25
Speaker 3: um look this weekend's the trilogy it's like a Heavyweight
30:28
Speaker 3: title fight, some of the great matchups over the years
30:32
Speaker 3: should be a cracker.
30:33
Speaker 2: Let's hope it's better than Godfather 3.
30:36
Speaker 3: One other technical aspect with the antics off the field
30:40
Speaker 3: and Rusty's changes I want to make is that, look,
30:45
Speaker 3: he's flaunting the grey area here, Rusty. At a World Cup,
30:49
Speaker 3: he would not be permitted, I've done a bit of
30:51
Speaker 3: research into this, he would not be permitted to make
30:54
Speaker 3: changes that are not injury-enforced. 48 hours out from a game.
30:59
Speaker 3: So on the Friday before the Saturday test here, he's
31:03
Speaker 3: put Cheslin Colby on the right wing for Aronson. That
31:08
Speaker 3: wouldn't be allowed. Aronson's fine. There's no injury there. He
31:12
Speaker 3: hasn't bracketed him. That would be not allowed. And same
31:15
Speaker 3: with your, you have to submit your starting team and
31:18
Speaker 3: your bench, and there can't be any changes unless they're injury-related.
31:22
Speaker 3: Because this series is a joint venture between New Zealand
31:25
Speaker 3: Rugby and Saru, there's blurred lines. And because Saru's running
31:31
Speaker 3: this on the ground, they're not going to tell Rusty
31:34
Speaker 3: he's in the wrong. So, look, he's flaunting it. He's
31:39
Speaker 3: pushing the envelope. The All Blacks say they're not worried
31:41
Speaker 3: about it. Do you have an issue with it? Is
31:44
Speaker 3: there any rugby ethics or anything like that?
31:48
Speaker 2: Well, I don't have a huge issue with it per se,
31:53
Speaker 2: but why are you naming your team on Monday when
31:56
Speaker 2: you don't know the fitness of all your players? It
31:58
Speaker 2: only has to be named 48 hours out from kickoff.
32:00
Speaker 2: So what are you doing? Releasing it publicly when you
32:04
Speaker 2: have all these question marks, he's like grandstanding. Yeah. We
32:07
Speaker 2: were at the media conference last week. He said, I'll
32:08
Speaker 2: see you might come in. He was bracketed at that
32:10
Speaker 2: point or slashed. What do you want to call it?
32:12
Speaker 2: With the portavillas. He did mention, uh, Rusty on Monday
32:16
Speaker 2: that she was on copy was a chance of being included.
32:18
Speaker 2: But again, why name your team on Monday when you
32:20
Speaker 2: don't have to, um, So it's subject to change. There's
32:24
Speaker 2: an asterisk next to it. And then, obviously, the change
32:26
Speaker 2: they made... Like an hour before. an hour before kick-off
32:29
Speaker 2: and switching out the starting front row for, you know,
32:34
Speaker 2: Sten Camp, Dion Frey, and Thomas de Toey.
32:37
Speaker 3: And what about the crock of shit excuse?
32:39
Speaker 2: Oh, no, no, no.
32:41
Speaker 3: We did that because we thought it might be wet,
32:43
Speaker 3: so that front row was more suited.
32:45
Speaker 2: Yeah.
32:46
Speaker 3: Nobody's buying that, Russie.
32:47
Speaker 2: No one's buying that, but.
32:50
Speaker 2: He's entitled to do it because it falls within the
32:52
Speaker 2: rules of World Rugby outside of a Rugby World Cup.
32:56
Speaker 2: I guess the question is, at a World Cup, who's
32:58
Speaker 2: judging whether these players are injured?
33:00
Speaker 3: I.E.
33:01
Speaker 2: Colby. Or, sorry, Aaron's... You know, they could just go,
33:04
Speaker 2: he's taken a knock to his knees. He's no good
33:06
Speaker 2: this week. You can flaunt the rules as much as
33:08
Speaker 2: you like. Again, at a World Cup, you wouldn't be
33:11
Speaker 2: able to make that bench change, presumably, because it's not injury-related,
33:16
Speaker 2: so you couldn't make it for tactical reasons and switch...
33:19
Speaker 2: those players. So, yeah, he's flaunting the rules a little bit.
33:23
Speaker 2: I've always thought that, and this would be terrible for
33:26
Speaker 2: a commentator like myself, but you should reveal your 23s
33:29
Speaker 2: now before kickoff.
33:31
Speaker 3: Well, I think you go one way or the other.
33:32
Speaker 3: Either you do it or you don't.
33:34
Speaker 2: Yeah.
33:34
Speaker 3: Right? So, from a fan's, a punditry perspective, it makes
33:41
Speaker 3: a bit of a mockery of the whole build-up, doesn't it?
33:43
Speaker 3: Because you could talk about a player like Pollard most
33:46
Speaker 3: of the week and And I think there was a
33:48
Speaker 3: genuine injury with Pollard, but say you're talking about Aronson,
33:52
Speaker 3: and then he's completely irrelevant a day before the game.
33:54
Speaker 3: Same with the starting front rows. I don't know if
33:58
Speaker 3: I feel for the All Blacks, but it would pose
34:01
Speaker 3: some challenges. You're potentially preparing for one front row, and
34:05
Speaker 3: then that flips on a dime an hour before the game.
34:08
Speaker 3: So I think there probably does need to be some
34:10
Speaker 3: sort of metric or stipulation around that, but look, Rusty's
34:15
Speaker 3: going to get away with anything he can.
34:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Rusty's trying to push the boundaries and good
34:19
Speaker 2: on them to an extent. You know, a lot of
34:22
Speaker 2: rugby things are just done because that's the way they've
34:24
Speaker 2: always been done. You have to name a team on
34:26
Speaker 2: a Thursday for a Saturday game, which obviously Rusty does
34:30
Speaker 2: not do. But, you know, or you have to, you know,
34:34
Speaker 2: that team's got to be public. And part of it's,
34:36
Speaker 2: you know, headlines and stories and media coverage that you
34:40
Speaker 2: name a team and people can talk about the team
34:42
Speaker 2: 48 hours out. But look at a sport like, football
34:45
Speaker 2: and the Premier League and Champions League and FIFA World
34:48
Speaker 2: Cups different game because you kind of know the first
34:51
Speaker 2: choice team is going to play most games anyway but
34:53
Speaker 2: they only name it an hour or so before kickoff
34:56
Speaker 2: and that creates drama in and of itself because you're
34:58
Speaker 2: still debating it'd be a very long week but you're
35:00
Speaker 2: still debating who's going to be in the you know
35:04
Speaker 2: in the side up until an hour before kickoff.
35:06
Speaker 3: So but but it should be the same for both teams.
35:09
Speaker 2: Oh I agree completely yes whatever it is yeah I mean,
35:12
Speaker 2: the All Blacks are going to go on, actually, we're
35:14
Speaker 2: going to put Richie Wong on the bench yesterday, or
35:17
Speaker 2: whatever it might have been.
35:17
Speaker 3: It's an interesting scenario for the players, too. I don't
35:20
Speaker 3: know how that plays out behind the scenes, whether they're
35:22
Speaker 3: actually told what's happening on a Monday and what changes
35:24
Speaker 3: throughout the week. But if you're an Aronson and you're
35:28
Speaker 3: preparing to play and then you're told, sorry, mate, Colby's back,
35:32
Speaker 3: or if you're the front row preparing to start, it's
35:37
Speaker 3: a lot going on in the week. I guess you've
35:38
Speaker 3: got to just be prepared for that sort of carry on. Yeah.
35:40
Speaker 3: If you're in the box.
35:41
Speaker 2: You do.
35:41
Speaker 3: Yeah.
35:42
Speaker 2: It's part of, it comes with, with being in camp,
35:44
Speaker 2: you know, feverishly awaiting the media advisory from South Africa
35:48
Speaker 2: as to when Rusty's going to name his preliminary team
35:51
Speaker 2: for this week, whether it's Monday or he's going to
35:53
Speaker 2: go back to Thursday or whatever it might be. Yeah.
35:55
Speaker 3: There's a bit of theater, isn't it? It is.
35:57
Speaker 2: Just before we wrap up, do you think the spring
35:59
Speaker 2: box will make many changes? Talked a lot about the
36:01
Speaker 2: All Blacks. I mean, A couple of big test matches
36:03
Speaker 2: in a row. We saw Sir Khaleesi come back from
36:05
Speaker 2: his hamstring injury. Peter Steph's had a couple of big matches.
36:09
Speaker 2: Ed Seberth, you know, he's the most capped springbok of
36:11
Speaker 2: all time. Can they go into the well again? They've
36:15
Speaker 2: got fantastic depth, but do they make changes for Test 3?
36:19
Speaker 3: Yes, they do. I'm not sure exactly what they'll be,
36:22
Speaker 3: and I'm sure.
36:22
Speaker 2: They'll change throughout the week.
36:25
Speaker 3: But I think if Pollard's fit, he starts. because this
36:29
Speaker 3: is the defining game of the series. Russie picked that
36:32
Speaker 3: from the outset, and I guess it was always going
36:34
Speaker 3: to be the three of four. And I think he
36:39
Speaker 3: wants him there from a goal-kicking, from a game management.
36:41
Speaker 3: I don't think Sasha's been great. Maybe that's him not
36:46
Speaker 3: being allowed to play his natural game or a lack
36:48
Speaker 3: of game time leading into the series, but I think
36:51
Speaker 3: Russie will want Pollard there, so I can see him
36:53
Speaker 3: coming in. I don't see him. Willemsen's out, so they'll
36:56
Speaker 3: have to put somebody in at fullback.
36:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, they put Lebock there. He came on off the
37:01
Speaker 2: bench yesterday. They may have some other options there. I'm
37:05
Speaker 2: not sure if Fussy's fit.
37:07
Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm sure they've got... They could potentially put a
37:11
Speaker 3: Colby to fullback or somebody like that. So, yeah, they
37:15
Speaker 3: will make changes. I'm not sure about how many up front.
37:18
Speaker 3: I think your usual suspects, Peter Steff and Khaleesi, will start.
37:23
Speaker 3: But Khaleesi played, what, 42 minutes? So... They have phenomenal depth.
37:28
Speaker 3: There's many levers they could pull, but I do expect
37:31
Speaker 3: some changes.
37:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll wait and see what the Springboks do this week.
37:35
Speaker 2: Going to be another big week of build-up, isn't it?
37:37
Speaker 2: For a third test, the stage is set. We head
37:40
Speaker 2: back to Johannesburg midweek and at the 90-odd thousand FNB
37:44
Speaker 2: Stadium in Soweto. So, obviously, we've got another podcast coming
37:48
Speaker 2: once the teams are named. But, yeah, looking forward to
37:52
Speaker 2: what should be a pretty special occasion next Saturday.
37:54
Speaker 3: Our time. Yeah, hopefully no... No aerial, no plane incidents.
38:01
Speaker 3: They might push them. Maybe they'll go from 12 to
38:04
Speaker 3: 6 metres.
38:05
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah.
38:05
Speaker 3: It's like a game of chicken amongst the South African parlours.
38:10
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Right, that'll wrap us up for Rugby Direct. We
38:13
Speaker 2: will catch you later in the week. Thanks as always
38:15
Speaker 2: to Mark Kelly for producing this podcast, and we're powered
38:19
Speaker 2: by Forklift Solutions, lifting you and your business to a
38:22
Speaker 2: higher level.
38:27
Speaker 1: For more from Newstalk ZB, listen live, on air or
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38:33
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