Latest / Generation F Podcast / Episode 15: Understanding Generations Part 3

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Episode 15: Understanding Generations Part 3 · Generation F Podcast

• Isaiah: Welcome back to the Generation F podcast. We are joined today with a special guest. The past couple episodes we were over different ideas in the Old and New Testament that pertain to defining ⁓ not just sin, but these different aspects that we see across different generations. In episode one, we were discussing the Hebrew translations to sin, and transgression. And we used a couple of scriptures to kind of have some interesting conversations about that. In episode two, we went into the New Testament and talked about these Greek concepts that were in alignment with what was being talked about in the Old Testament. Today we do have a a recurring guest, Yuri. we plan to have like an interesting conversation maybe more of the psychological slash epigenetic aspect. certain afflictions or or mental health i don't want to speak for him in terms of what we're gonna be talking about but i do kind of want to start us off ⁓ with the introduction of yuri and we also have my co-host maddie phil still on vacation so we don't have him for another week but we are gonna get started and i want to open us up today with maddie reading a scripture in the book numbers gonna be Numbers chapter 14 and that's in the Old Testament. And once Maddie reads that for us, we're gonna talk a little bit about it. And then we're gonna allow ⁓ Yuri to kind of go through you know some ideas that he has within his field Maddie: Numbers fourteen, we're starting at line eighteen. The Lord is slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, to the third and the fourth generation. Please pardon the iniquity of this people, according to the greatness of your steadfast love. Just as you have forgiven this people from Egypt until now. Isaiah: So one of the things that is happening in this chapter ⁓ is is talking to God and he's reminding ⁓ God about previous conversations that were in Exodus that we did touch a little bit on in episode one. ⁓ you see this line ⁓ quoted ⁓ times in the old testament. at ⁓ least a a dozen, if not more times in different books. Where he's talking about these different ⁓ sins and afflictions and things that the people of Israel were doing, you know, once they left Egypt. we talked about the iniquity, ⁓ the the transgression that they were doing. ⁓ and what he's quoting here is this thing that I kind of missed the last time we did the episode that really just kind of stuck out to me. It's what Maddie had read, but in verse eighteen it says forgiving iniquity and transgression. But ⁓ he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation. Now we talked that as kind of the basis of episode one, but one of the things that I want to talk about with Yuri. today this idea of forgiveness still some kind of a consequence. When we look at this ⁓ in modern days Application, if you will, we see this idea that, okay, you know, God forgives us of all these different things that we've done, whether we did it willingly, knowingly, intentionally, or even unintentionally. But sometimes there is a a cascading effect, this ancestral or generational ⁓ degradation or effect that comes of our actions. You know, simple examples could be ⁓ you know, we use the idea of substance abuse. Abuse a lot, more so because that's just you know very personal to my life. You may get treatment, you may find faith, you might have all these things that kind of right the wrongs in your life, but there is some kind of a cascading effect. Maybe it affects your children, maybe it affects your grandchildren based off of their susceptibility to having that same kind of an issue. But I wanna kinda have Yuri kind of dive into more of the epigenetics and the the psychology ⁓ or psychiatry behind this idea and tying in different concepts that he has from having a Russian Orthodox background if possible. Yuri. Yuri: Okay, well thank you for that introduction. It's been a little while since I saw you last. question that always pops into my head is where do I begin, right? Especially prepping for discussions like these, you know, this depth and magnitude. I appreciate the warm welcome. You know, one of the things that I do for my work is I work with people who have had a lot of... trauma, a lot of difficulties. psychiatry probably one of the younger fields where we understand the least about the things that manifest in people's lives, people's minds. It's very easy to say certain things and be them, as in mental illness is just a behavioral manifestation, right? But in general, the less somebody who works with such states, such people who have difficult paths, difficult lives, the less likely they are to understand it and understand what they're going through. And so, you know, I want to kind of lay like a foundational perspective of what type of things experience in general without naming any obviously, but... People experience a lot of traumas, lot of difficulties, a lot of isolation, in our world, despite the hyper-connectivity our technological advances, Nowadays, pretty everything, including your vacuum cleaner is connected to the internet in some sense. And ⁓ despite this world, seems like we're more and more isolated and maybe not necessarily isolated in a sense where we can't. see each other, right? Because you can have a Facebook group, you can have an Instagram group, your pet can have an Instagram page, whatever it is, And on the surface level, it gives this of perception that we're so hyper-connected. ⁓ I know this person, I know this person, I know this person. And if you really think about it, it's not until the invention of the internet that this... this intensity, the intensity of these symptoms that people experience on a daily basis, whether it's anxiety, it's worry, it's that we haven't seen it like this before. And the question there is whether it's a matter of exposure or if it's a matter of we just now are finding out more and more about how these impact our lives. But in general, the rate of anxiety and depression and sadness, social isolation is increasing. And, you know, we're seeing it start out as young as ages eight, nine, 10 even, Early, ⁓ And, you one of the issues is it's really easy to blame things on, you know, the advent of social media. And while, ⁓ certainly plays big role, we kind of have ⁓ step back and... see the bigger picture. you know, this is one of those segues where I would like to take into the epigenetics role where while I'm not an epigeneticist, obviously, but I take a couple of classes, couple of courses where, you know, epigenetics was a big discussion. And so it's also easy to say that everything is genetic, right? Everything is outside of my control. you know, these large genetic studies that are coming out the big human genome project, right, that was completed, you know, it basically puts this onus on everything is ⁓ in some sense. And so the concept epigenetics has been kind of floating around, not really too discussed in the realm of medicine, psychiatry. up until maybe like 2012, when we started seeing a lot more impact, right? A lot more, this, guess, hyperconductivity of the internet, you start to see more and more articles coming out. And I think one of the articles that I, one of the very first articles that I read was back in 2012 about the impact of... people experiencing famine during World War II the effect on their progeny later down the line up to as far as three or four generations. And so I believe this article was one of the ones that mentioned. people developing, being at a higher risk for developing diabetes, who were, you know, the progeny of people who survived the famine. And was one of the first times that I ever read about that. it gave me kind of like a head scratcher. Well, apparently it's not just genetics. Apparently it's not just the thing that, you know, you're born with and that's all self-limited to you and you only. And that be both a distressing and a comforting feeling, right? that while this is the thing that I experience, may be having a difficult time with, but in the very least, the who are around me, my family, my children are not going to be impacted by it. Well, it turns out that's not the case at all. reality is that the epigenetic changes are basically those changes that in response to the environment are allowing certain to be turned on or turned off, know, propagation of certain genes to go to proteins to, you know, create certain manifestations within somebody's body, somebody's brain, how they react. Prime example of that being, you know, people who experienced famine, their progeny being more susceptible to diabetes, they're down the line. And so this is one of those things where, you know, people who are experiencing trauma, who experienced trauma in the past, childhood, it's a big, it's a big environmental trigger, environmental stressor to activate certain things and in the genetic kind of line of code that everybody has in their DNA. And so this is, it's an interesting that we in the field of psychiatry, whenever we and we start to get to know somebody, somebody comes in for a visit, we them questions, not only about their symptoms, right? But also one of the very important aspects of our kind of line of questioning is, you know, how did you grow up? Like, what is your ⁓ kind psychosocial background? What is the thing that was the environment as a generality where you grew up? And how do you respond to the fact because somebody can say, you know, my, my parents were always fighting, disagreeing, et cetera, et cetera. But overall, my experience, my perception was I was loved. I was taken care of. I was, you know, I felt safe, right? Whereas, somebody can have a completely different even if their experience was relatively the same. So in In that kind of context, actually use a scale. It's like ⁓ the scale, adverse childhood And so that gives us kind of like a component of how a person rates their experiences, you growing up in the psychosocial environment, that they have any intense emotional experiences, especially, especially in the early stages of development. And of course, we also ask the family history because that gives us a good kind of direction in which explore further ⁓ their symptoms are and how could it be ⁓ investigated further, whether this is bipolarity OCD or anxiety or depression or that kind of thing. And not go too far off the topic of ⁓ and generational faith. Many times I see people who come in from a very supportive background, even if it's not necessarily religious in a sense, they say that, you know, my difficulties in my life didn't begin until later down the line. And then we go through the genetic aspect of it all and then see what there's. My grandmother had severe trauma. My mom had severe trauma. And there's this kind of generational aspect where it's almost as if the genetics the environment. And in the sense where there's a lot of stress, there's certain genes. I even an article about this in Science Daily. There's genes that are responsible for expressing ⁓ how responds to the cortisol, right, stress hormones. And so these genes get upregulated the more stressful the environment is. And, you know, one of the things that we see when somebody starts going through therapy, starts going, you know, starts taking medications that may actually impact their anxiety or their sleep or their mood, while all of that is good. Oftentimes it's a very limited benefit unless a person is to kind of find themselves in the ⁓ that gives them meaning, right? In which they're able to either give back or receive love ⁓ both. And can of the ⁓ trajectory of that development from, let's say, being accepted with ⁓ a therapist, with good psychiatric provider. start to see a little bit of a change in their personality and the dynamic and how they treat themselves. So the certain epigenetic component, I would say that this is a very significant environmental shift for them. With that in environment, a lot of different manifestations come about. start being a little bit nicer to themselves, nicer to others. they start working on themselves, they start to a little bit more connected with society. And that same article, I read that in general, when somebody has a strong societal connection, social connection, ⁓ under psychosocial context, especially in context ⁓ of religiosity being and having faith, they tend to better. but not only do better for themselves, but also they have a tendency to impact the people that are around them. So in a sense, I believe this is one of the things that was mentioned in the article where it's transcendental not only to them vertically, but also across the spectrum with all the people with whom they interact. So people who have had, let's say trauma, right, and now have become. psychiatric technicians or mental health technicians, whatever the case may be, they through resolving of their own traumas have a tendency to be able to give back to the community and kind of help others. so there's that epigenetic aspect, all the genetic stuff aside and, the social, it all overlays as a, as a holistic, holistic aspect of a person. ⁓ Maddie: Yuri, I wanted to ask you a ⁓ follow up question if I could. Yuri: Please. Maddie: ⁓ in relation to, you know, that that scripture reading, if you recall from the beginning, I was wondering how you would connect that personally with that idea of iniquity. Like as in our actions have kind of like a continual side effect or consequence. Yuri: So in terms of the iniquity, right, there is something that I wrote down from the actual Eastern Orthodox theological framework. So. First, let me address the actual, the liquidity part. Iniquity the ⁓ remember like you guys were talking about in the past couple of episodes, the iniquity aspect is different necessarily sin, right? The pardoning of iniquity of these people, but not necessarily removing the guilt from the children, at least in my interpretation from how I've seen in the psychiatric field. right, that just because somebody is able to work through these problems, is able to do benefit not just for themselves, but maybe across the across the board. It doesn't necessarily negate the their genetics, right. ⁓ it also doesn't necessarily negate the fact that their leading up to the point where they were accepting of of their let's say either wrongdoings or for iniquities or for shortcomings doesn't necessarily negate the impact that they have had the negative aspect on other people. And so in this sense, this actually struck a little bit of thought were reading this off, ⁓ when have relationship with God. We can ask for forgiveness, we can be forgiven, can receive grace, we can be, can do all we can to ⁓ ourselves closer to Christ and to God in communion with him. But that doesn't necessarily negate the fact that the implication of our sin and of our shortcoming is ⁓ going to just be resolved just because we have received forgiveness. That continue. later down to the progeny. And it's not necessarily, I feel like it's really easy to misinterpret that phrase and this is going to be my personal take on it. I don't believe this to be the case where God is intentionally trying to punish us for the fourth generation, till the fourth generation, because out of spite or out of bitterness, it's, I believe this to be a matter of our fall in human nature, being from the sin from Adam that was started across all humanity from Adam committing that greatest sin. And it's almost as if I had to come up with a metaphor on the spot. would say that if you put in a bunch of holes into a fence with nails or a nail gun, you made great mistakes, right? You can pull those. those nails out, the holes will remain. so it's the same kind of principle that may have been out in the sense where a person can have transgressions against God, against his laws. And even though somebody repented and received and grace and pulled those nails out, that change, you know. epigenetically down the line the sins that have have been impacted on the they're on the genome or on the progeny or you know later down the line because There's still some some effect the things that we do positive or negative they impact us on this on this level on level of the earthly realm and ⁓ yeah, let me don't let me ramble ⁓ Isaiah: Do you mind if I ⁓ interject for a second? No, you're you're good. Yeah, because it's gonna lead into my next point. But before we kind of put a cap on that idea, ⁓ first progeny in layman's terms, and also if you have any idea of how ⁓ Orthodoxy kind of communicates this concept, keeping in mind that most people Won't really understand the specific nuance. ⁓ one of the things that you see in the Old Testament is this idea where whether it's in you know Numbers, Deuteronomy, Exodus, a couple of the other books in the minor prophets, when they mention this idea of third and fourth generations, there's a key word in there that I see ⁓ It's up to, ⁓ You know, so the words up to ⁓ Yuri: Thank you. Mm-hmm. Isaiah: almost like a range or a cap of how much can last with you, but it's not a promise, it's just a capacity ⁓ a length of time and and that's how I interpret it where it it's not to say that, ⁓ okay, if I battled with drug addiction, ⁓ four generations from now my descendants are gonna have drug addiction. It's it's more so this idea that there is this lingering genetic expression or spiritual expression that can linger up to a certain point, but may not, depending on the the circumstance. And it I I don't think there's a science behind it per se. And or at least I just don't have the wisdom to understand it, but ⁓ give me a clear definition of the word progeny and then also maybe some orthodox ideas if there is anything communicated specifically about that generational sin aspect without talking about Adam because we're gonna talk about that in the next segment. Yuri: ⁓ progeny just being your line, your lineage, later down the line. And I'm actually so glad that you brought up the up to aspect of that verse because nothing is impossible with God, right? The point that you're making that we're not locked in to our genome, we're not locked into this specific box of like, ⁓ you us in four generations, boom, it's not set in stone. That's... That's the beauty of it. the Orthodox perspective, in The visiting of the iniquity of the fathers onto the children, it's, would say that it's not a, I've made notes about this, it's not a judicial act of this vengeful, of a vengeful God, I know I alluded to this earlier, of a vengeful God punishing innocent grandchildren just for the sake of punishment. It's basically a systemic propagation how certain maybe ⁓ aspects of wickedness, propagate through time. And, you know, it's interesting because in orthodoxy there's The aspect, I know we don't want to talk about Adam as of yet, but the ancestral sin, right? It's more related to the concept of fallen human nature. Is that the reason why we as humans, struggle and we have all these, all this wickedness on, in our world on earth now related to the fact that human nature as a whole is fallen. only redemption is through Christ. Many people think that can be a good person and I can define however I see fit. The reality is not that simple. It doesn't that just because you feel good about the thing that you do ⁓ or society you that you do good, it doesn't mean that you are in fact doing good ⁓ in the of God. You know, the lukewarm verse comes to mind. I forget exactly what it is, you know, people will call me Lord, Lord, Lord, but I will say to them, be gone from me, I never knew you. Isaiah: Yeah, we did that one last episode. Yuri: Yeah, yeah. And it's one of those things where are certain things that we believe that are good, that we can impacting the world in a positive sense, and yet at the same time propagating sin further. Somebody may believe that they're a good parent, but yet they're impacting their child in such a way where they're propagating that generational trauma from their grandfather, their father, their and later on down the line. And that's not one of those things that somebody realizes until very, very late until it's way too late. Isaiah: Yeah, in my notes I have this kind of idea of epigenetics or even the idea of something being in some way of saying like hereditary. You know, this is a very outside perspective. I know nothing about psychiatry or biology, but I think of something as simple as know, fetal alcohol syndrome or these different things that are just ⁓ obvious consequences ⁓ of behaviors, right? But I I don't believe that epigenetics is used to prove the Bible right and the Bible is used to disprove or prove epigenetics, right? But I think what it can be done is used as a very interesting talking point to give perspective and context to this idea of generational ⁓ i issues. And that's kind of what I wanted to really roundabout way kind of you know finish up is this idea that the spiritual descriptions and the scientific or biological descriptions can coexist in a certain way. They may not they may be explaining each other, but they also may not be, depending how you want to spin it. But Yuri: Absolutely. Isaiah: one of the things that I wanna give is context to when people read the Bible and they see these very thought provoking passages and they have no way to base it. the idea of epigenetics really kind of connects to this ancestral or generational ⁓ curse, if you will. And one of the things that we're gonna transition to is in the book of Romans where Paul, the apostle who's you know, writing to the church of Rome, He takes like a like a zoom out perspective of what's going on. Because again, for the audience who doesn't know the New and the Old Testament, when Paul's talking to these different churches with these different letters and he's going on these different trips to kind of preach to these cities and these in these countries, These people aren't descendants of Israel. They're just European or Middle Eastern like there's you know, Mediterranean, they're in these different areas. So he's trying to explain things to them in a way that they can gravitate towards that may apply to them because they don't have that same lineage, they don't have that same bloodline as the people that you would see traditionally in the Torah or the first five books of the Old Testament. so when we go into ⁓ Romans ⁓ five, we're gonna start in verse twelve. And the caption to this says ⁓ death in Adam, life in Christ. And this is a different translation. I I ⁓ put away my bible for today just because I wanted to get some words out. and I'm gonna start reading. It says, and this is Paul talking to the Roman church. He says, Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, ⁓ man being Adam, right? The story of Adam and Eve, and death through sin, right? So this is this idea that the idea of death is directly connected to sin, because before Adam there was no death. Death is a consequence of rebellion. It's a consequence of that original story in the Bible with Adam and Eve, and then the the tree and the fruit and all that. so it says, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned. For sin indeed was in the world before the law was given. That's the law of Moses, the Ten Commandments. But sin is not counted where there is no law. That's an interesting passage. We'll have to circle back to that one. Yeah, it is an interesting talking point. I I've I've I don't want to leave undone, so we can kind of hyperlink that. yeah, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one ⁓ who to come. Yuri: Yeah. Isaiah: I'm gonna pause there because there's a lot of meat here. You know, this idea in verse I believe it was thirteen. it But sin is not counted to where there is no law. I'm not a theologian, I don't pretend to be. But a lot of things in the Bible that you'll see, especially in the epistles, and also just purely opinion based, I think a lot of this has to do ⁓ Yuri: you Isaiah: with very specific people types, maybe very hard to reach areas that just don't have ⁓ the development to have certain laws and regulations and there's like a different ⁓ expectation put on them. You know, I think of someone on an island, right? You know, they they're not gonna be held to the same standard as someone who came from ⁓ Egypt or Rome, in the eyes of God, right? There is this very specific race that, you know, is kind of applied in that idea where ⁓ this is all my perspective. But in that one little line, he's talking about, ⁓ God understands ⁓ nuance and he understands the nature of reality to the smallest whether it's the smallest island to the largest nation, he's he's judging everyone accordingly based off of they feel they can be accountable of. And Yuri, I don't know if you feel the same way, but that's That's how I've always felt when I read that one line. Yuri: You know, from my stance, like now that we know we discussed this, it really is an interesting line where it shows that God's judgment and his grace is not just universal across everyone. Adam's sin is across all humanity because we are all as human nature. We're, we're falling. But this gives me the of somebody, if they don't know of God's laws, they're the the ideas, right? But who Christ is ⁓ and being in communion with him saves us from death in the world. The judgment is not gonna be the same. judgment is not going to be the same for somebody who is aware of the laws, aware of God's laws and transgresses them voluntarily, intentionally. Whereas somebody who simply does not know because of exposure, because of ⁓ lacking the ability to read or understand or whatever the case may be, or simply hasn't had that kind of exposure to. to the scriptures at all, that judgment is going to be different. But don't know what it's going to be. We don't know what kind of judgment or what kind of grace God is going to have for each and every one of us. It's very, it's very hard to, there is a lot of meat over there. You're right. For sure. Isaiah: Yeah, I Yeah, I feel like you can get kind of get lost on that one line and I'm sure everyone has a very different opinion on it. But that's just something that I've always kind of seen where there's just individual nuance to people that just didn't have the opportunity, or or maybe it can even be something as simple as capacity, you know, mental health or, you Yuri: You know, the interesting aspect there is like, I kind of wonder about the expression of the soul. So if somebody has the ability to say prayers and the knowledge the opportunity, but doesn't versus somebody who has absolutely ability, no possible opportunity, no location where to go, whether it's church or to pray with somebody else or, or to even have that kind of ⁓ social dynamic where somebody can be in even the idea of God. That's one of the things, it's a big differential. I would say that it's not as simple as we would probably make it out to be. And a lot of people would probably say, you know, take a non nuanced approach and say, well, you know, there's the laws and the rules and if you don't follow them, you're just going to hell. ⁓ And really realistically doesn't do anybody any good. to kind of transpose from that idea, you see a lot of that in psychiatry and medicine that, you know, well, if somebody can't follow the rules, the laws or whatever, somebody just can't stop doing a certain behavior, then, you know, they're wrong and there's only one punishment for them, one judgment. And that's not necessarily right way of doing things. And that's why there's so many nuances ⁓ everything. if you have to... consider nuances, right? There's only so many nuances that we as humans are able to even hold in our head, like even consider, whereas ability to see us is very personal, it's very individual, and it's very intimate in that regard. Isaiah: Yeah, I mean I'll even take it a step further and bring it more into the mental health perspective. You know, I mean when I was younger I had a an uncle who was ⁓ you know, a I don't know what the the proper term would be, but he like a paranoid schizophrenic and he ⁓ was very afflicted with his mental illness, for the most part, you know, was conversational but couldn't organize and thoughts ⁓ to kind of say the least. But yet I I believe that he he knew God in his own capacity he had some kind of expression of faith even though his limitations were that of of not having law, ⁓ So I think it could be something as simple as an indigenous tribe that just didn't have exposure to certain, you know concepts or ideas and that's again this is all fantasy and extrapolating, but I think it o it could also be taken into the idea of just someone that can't uphold ⁓ right? Whether that's like some kind of a mental standpoint. ⁓ ⁓ I wanna continue. ⁓ and just at the end of this ⁓ verse talks about the transgression of Adam who was a type of the one who was to come. That line is interesting because a lot of times in the Bible, Jesus is referred to as the new Adam, right? You know, he's his coming was to undo the things that Adam had done that first rebellion, that first quote unquote sin that happened. that's that's kind of like an idea for people to understand in context why you would see Adam being used together when we're talking about Jesus. I don't want to spend too much time on that, but I want to read another few verses before we kind of sink our teeth into it. So verse 15, it says, but the free gift is not like the trespass. in this verse is the Greek translation of the word Transgression, So ⁓ is things that you're doing intentionally wrong. You're doing it against God's law, right? So but the free gift is not like the trespass, for if many died through one man's trespass, much ⁓ have grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result ⁓ of one man's sin. The judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. I want to read one more verse. It says, For if because of one man's trespass death reigned through that one man, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Christ. So l one of things that Paul's known for is like run-on sentences. So if you read a lot of the epistles, it almost kind of feels like where's the comma in here? Like there's a lot of things going on. But within these ⁓ six if you will, one of things that he's really talking about. Yuri: Mm-hmm. you Isaiah: in a zoomed out approach, and again a lot of this can kind of be missed, is he's acknowledging the law of Moses. He's acknowledging the expectations and standards that were given to the people of Israel. But he's trying to these concepts to the rest of the world. He's ⁓ trying to apply these concepts to people that maybe came from more of like a a pagan or polytheistic, you know, world or worldview. And he's and he's saying that, all right, well Even if you don't identify with this one little tribe in the Middle East, you know, we are still bound by the same consequence because we all come from one man. We all come from one man named Adam. He was the first ⁓ people. He was the first of God's people, really. He was the first creation to ⁓ of God's, doing, right? So he's trying to really just kind of point this in, like, okay, there you know, this is why Jesus came, this is why I'm preaching to you about crucifixion and he's kind of doing his little ministry. ⁓ he's he's talking about this is a free gift because ⁓ of the things that we did against God throughout the you know. God loved us so much that he sent his son, be that sacrifice, right? So that we wouldn't receive judgment. And this is one of the things that I wanna talk about in the next episode is what does that actually look like? You know, you might hear these things like, Okay, ⁓ Jesus died for me and you know, he did this and he did that, but like how do I interface with it? what does this really mean practically? But for the time being, we have this interesting of we have the the epigenetic idea that we were trying to talk about earlier with the Old Testament talking about up to three to four generations of something consequential. You know, Yuri talked a little bit about what the clinical realm would you know, discuss with certain gene expression, if you will. And then we have this completely different perspective in the New Testament where Paul's almost like trying to apply these multiple concepts and almost simplify it. A lot of times when you see the New Testament, Paul Paul doesn't often mention these concepts of transgression, iniquity, and sin. It's all kind of called sin. in some wording, trespassing or wickedness, but he's he's representing everything by one idea because ⁓ it was all taken Jesus on the cross. For that curse, right? So he he kind of consolidates these ideas lot of times when you s when you read these books in the New Testament, because he's trying to he's he's trying to drive the point across that no matter what the affliction is, we have the resolution, you know. So Uri, I don't know if you have any comments ⁓ on excerpt in the book of Romans, and maybe some thoughts that are different than my own. Yuri: Something immediately stood out. As you can see, I'm taking so many notes that I'm running out of paper. This is what I do typically. But one of the things that really stood out when I wrote it down, the concept of a free gift, right? Makes you wonder. So the idea of a gift, right? There's nothing that somebody did to deserve it necessarily. Nothing that's done to, you know, Instigate somebody else to give somebody a gift a Gift is just given it's just that that's There's no no necessary request nothing of the sort. It's not transactional. It's simply that I'm giving this to you because Because because I love you because I want this to be for you What's the responsibility of the other person the other person? Hey, he or she can take the gift accepted with grace or rejected. know, conceptually speaking, what Paul talks about this, this application, not just to a small tribe of Israel, right, in the biblical sense, where it's just one set of people that's, you know, selected for that purpose, right, and then everybody else's luck. This gift applies to everyone, should they be willing to receive it. And this is the that I see ⁓ a development that if somebody's given something and you express a ⁓ for it and joy to receive it, that brings you in this specific context of receiving a gift from God, that brings you in communion closer to God, to Christ. But should one reject it and further to things that you know are not good, not just because God doesn't like it or whatever, but because they're bad for not just yourself, but for your children, for your family, for humanity across the spectrum that will inevitably lead to not just the demise of one person who rejects the gift, but to all the people who follow that person. that is a much bigger consequence. And we see that both not necessarily just in the epigenetic, know, familial genetic sense, this is what the Bible is essentially discussing that, you know, these death, this death reign through them, right? That's when somebody follows a person who ⁓ rejecting of God's grace, God's mercy, and God's gift. of offer of new life because in essence in sin someone dies they die completely their soul does not does not persist they rejected Christ's gift of eternal life Isaiah: Do you agree with like my interpretation of Romans 5, but just how it was kind of spoken? Because like one of the things that I have in my notes is this oversimplification Adam brings death, then Jesus being the new Adam brings forth life. So it's this very simple, childlike idea. If one person brings this and the other brings that. And then Paul's trying to talk about this inheritance that we have aligning ourselves with Jesus and following these teachings. But there's also just this, again, comparative and and zoomed out approach to these ideas where it's He's trying to connect these these these stories and these happenings of different people with something that people can relate to, but also hold them responsible to the idea that we all come from the same family tree, you know, whether we like it or not. And ⁓ Yuri: I definitely agree with you Isaiah on that part and you know the thing that it's important to remember is that at some point in time Adam, it's not that Adam was always bad or the sinner. Adam ⁓ the choice. He in communion with God and he made the choice to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge and he fell out of communion with and so Christ's coming was ⁓ a redemption. It's a reconstitution of that communion with Christ ⁓ through which Adam and all his progeny can be redeemed. And it's a very, you mentioned, the run-on sentences of Paul, they make you kind of wonder what's the of that verse. But agree with you on the concept that this is one of those things where ⁓ Adam's transgressions, to they fell across all of humanity. And only through Christ can be redeemed. And that's the gift. It's the gift that we have and it's, but the difference being is that it's up to us to accept it or not. Isaiah: it's this idea that like, psychiatry can help us understand behavior, and even science can us understand biology, but the scripture tells like a much larger story, you know. And I think in some times they can support each other. And other times there's general contradictions or just you know differences of opinions. You know, but with your backgrounds and also your faith practice and and you know orthodoxy if you will. When we take it we we take like a a pall lens of this, we kind of zoom out a little bit and we are into consideration these ideas from the old testament. with sin, transgression, iniquity. And even in the New Testament, when you start to see things kinda get consolidated and lumped together, because again, there's more of this emphasis on Jesus being that sacrifice, that resolution, if you will, in simple terms. know, ⁓ are some things that you can take from these concepts that are maybe completely lost in in psychiatry? Because in in most cases the the treatment isn't the resolution, right? It it's enough to maybe uphold i i or ⁓ you know some of the the effects of most people or you know y you kind of insert whatever you want to kinda say with that but there is no cure right to most mental health disorders. ⁓ There's treatments, right? And what Paul's trying to talk about is a cure. It's a cure to this disease of know, of sin, right? Just to kind of put it simply, this this consolidated umbrella of ⁓ intentional, unintentional and inherent wrongdoing, right? ⁓ what are things that you take from from those those camps, those if you will? Yuri: such a good question. know, that's a kind of asking what the cure? what is the cure to the human condition? What is the cure to human suffering? In our humanistic sense, we're never going to be able to understand. First of all, what is even, you know, healthy, right? What is cured versus non cured? ⁓ persist sick, but also this of responsibility that we have for our own ⁓ and our own kind of desire to be with Christ, desire to commune with God, desire to be ⁓ positive impact on the world. ⁓ it's never ⁓ simple, easy answer. ⁓ really really simple to say that, know, mental illness can be managed simply by medications and therapy. And while that may be a very important part of treatment, it's necessary, right? Ultimately, have to ask ourselves what after we start treatment, the treatment is deemed successful, the majority of symptoms may be managed, whether it's anxiety, depression, sadness, whatever. The question becomes, do we do with that? ⁓ And What kind of impact does somebody else have on the world? And is this one of those things where treatment will help an individual be closer to God or will it take them away from the path? It's very hard to answer not every answer obviously applies to every single person there, but. I would say that as a generality, that psychiatry and faith are not antagonistic to one another. I would say that they're in fact very synergistic. Having faith in is a very significant portion of, I don't know if it's treatment, it's not something that I can prescribe because obviously I'm not a theologian or a priest or anything of that nature, but... You know, in general, what I see is, least in my practice, is that people who have faith, they do ⁓ a lot more ⁓ to their experience as a person struggling with mental illness. And times who have this kind of positive disposition, even if they're having a recurrence of certain symptoms or flare-ups or difficulties, whatever the case may be, ⁓ people who more faith... who have faith in God and their ability to be redeemed, right? understanding that they're suffering for some or another, but they're not alone. That Christ also and that he's there with I see a different rate of healing. those people and that connected this meaning is it's not antagonistic to healing, right? It's synergistic to it. That's a very, very key point to have I you know, many people, even when ⁓ I hospitals, I see improving much faster when they have a positive disposition, positive mindset and and the meaning behind as to why they want to get better. It's never as simple as like, I want to get better for the sake of getting better. I want to be better for my children. I want to be better with my family. want to be giving to my community. And when conversation turns to Christ, people with ⁓ faith, have a tendency to have lot more meaning even if their symptoms are significantly more pronounced. Isaiah: Yeah, I was listening to this one podcast earlier today. And it was very simple the way it was put, but I liked it because he was talking about the definition of faith isn't belief, it's trust. Right. And I I really like that and I'm gonna steal it because I think whenever someone says, Yeah, you know, they say that I have faith, you know, everyone just kind of thinks like, ⁓ you believe in something invisible, you're just putting ⁓ Yuri: Mmm, ⁓ that's so good. Me too. Isaiah: belief system into something but it's trust. Like if you have faith in a doctor can cure you, you're trusting in their education and their skill set to create a resolution. So whenever you see people that have faith you know, one of the reasons why they have like a a higher rate of progress is because they're trusting in something. It's the same thing in my line. If if if an athlete doesn't trust that I can get ⁓ to their destination, they they simply will not grow. They won't adapt. There needs to be trust for their body to believe in the work that they're doing for an adaptation to happen. And I think that, physically and spiritually, like you said, we're synergistic, ⁓ without trust in God, right? I I I whenever you read like the Old Testament you always see these lines like trust and obey, right? It's this idea of that you're in in some Bibles you'll s they'll say faith and and, you know, obedience or or whatever, but Yuri: Thank you. Isaiah: I think the words are interchangeable. So it's this idea that faith is trust. Faith is trust that the things that you're doing are gonna have a better result for you and nullify those potential ⁓ generational you know occurrences or or curses, if you will, to kind of wrap everything together. And that is something that I wanna kinda continue to talk about. in the next episode is this idea of okay, how do we trust in Jesus and God and what does that look like mechanically? Because I'm a very mechanical person. What does it look like to have faith? You know, what does it look like to actually continue with this idea versus just having knowledge of it, ⁓ having of the old testament and the new testament? Like what are these practical steps that we take? Yuri: Yeah. Isaiah: ⁓ you know, so in closing you, I do thank you for sacrificing your time again. You're you were always a a highly praised guest on the last episode you did. Yuri: Glory to God for all things brother. Thank you for having me on Isaiah: Yeah, any time. If if there's any closing statements that you have. If not, ⁓ I do appreciate your time again. Yuri: You know, I, maybe for your listeners, I can give a small one that somebody is having doubts, questions about faith ⁓ difficulties right? Just know that that's not necessarily permanent state of mind. Things change, perspectives change, ideas change and just trust and hold in your heart despite the fact that you may be having doubts in your head that things can and will be better. and be easy on yourself. And I don't mean in a sense, you know, let yourself pass, pass with sin or anything like that, make sure that you're giving yourself some grace and know that it's okay so long as you still get up the next day and you still try and you still try to do your best to seek the truth. that's the end of my closing statement. Thank for having me on, brother. Isaiah: Anytime. Thanks again. I do plan to get this episode out this week. you know, otherwise we'll continue next week's podcast, just kind of finishing this idea before we go into the next segment. thank you so much ⁓ and good ⁓ Yuri: Thank God. Thank you for having me brother.