Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #231 Ten-agers - an Interview With Madonna King

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#231 Ten-agers - an Interview With Madonna King · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: once answers.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Now, girls will learn to be the label they're given.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: And indeed, girls describe their role in a friendship group
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: in terms of the label they were given. And now
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  Speaker 1: here's the stars of our show.
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  Speaker 2: My mum and dad. Hello, I'm doctor Justin Colson. Here
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: with my wife Kylie were the parents of six daughters.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm the author of six books about raising happy families
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: and the founder of happy Families dot com dot au.
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  Speaker 2: Kylie really excited having a conversation today with an author
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  Speaker 2: who has really done some some amazing work in helping
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: parents to understand their daughters better.
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  Speaker 3: We are talking with Madonna King today and her latest
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: book is called ten Ager.
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  Speaker 2: I think this is the best title of any book ever.
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  Speaker 2: Like when I saw ten Ager, I thought was it?
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: It was a misspell.
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  Speaker 2: I loved being fourteen. I loved fathers and daughters because
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: they just say what the book is about. But ten Ager, I.
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: Think we have one of those in our house.
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  Speaker 2: We do so our fifth baby girl is a teenager
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: right now. But Donna, we feel like we've been reading
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: a book all about our little girl Oh.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: That's wonderful. I think.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: I think mostly I'm seeing a lot of her in
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: the pages. But something that stood out to me as
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: I've read your book is that there's there's so much,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: there's such a range of such such a diverse way
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: of being ten, like no ten age or is the
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: same as any other teenager in so many.
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  Speaker 1: Words that more than any other age I can think of,
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  Speaker 1: justin you know. And that's been made worse by the
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: fact that several school principles said to me that there's
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: almost a generation between an eighteen year old girl now
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: and a ten year old girl. But some ten year
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  Speaker 1: olds describe their builder bear to me, many of them
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: believe in Santa Claus. Others have a big sister who
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: might be bisexual or that. One asked me, are you
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: going to write a chapter on how you know when
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: you're like a boy and how do you know when
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: they like you back? I still haven't worked that out,
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  Speaker 1: but I think they're sitting around the same lunch table,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and that makes it really tough for parents because of
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: the different stages of development at that age of ten.
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: Madia, can you tell us a little bit about this
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  Speaker 3: book and what you found who.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Did you talk to and where did this come from?
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: So at the heart of it is five hundred ten
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  Speaker 1: year old girls, because my aim is to get inside
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: their minds so that they can tell us how we
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: might help them. And then once I'd done that, I
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  Speaker 1: consulted sixteen hundred moms, four hundred dads, one hundred year
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  Speaker 1: five and six school teachers, and then dozens of school
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: principals and school counselors and psychologists and the like. And
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: my goal was to talk to the girls about the
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: issues they saw of significance that perhaps they don't tell
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: us about, and then to seek advice from experts on that.
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  Speaker 2: I'm surprised one of the biggest issues that ten year
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  Speaker 2: old girls are experiencing, regardless of whether they're well and
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  Speaker 2: truly into puberty or whether it hasn't even begun yet
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  Speaker 2: in any obvious ways. Obviously it starts very very young internally,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: even though it's not always outwardly obvious. But one thing
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  Speaker 2: that seems to affect every single ten year old girl
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  Speaker 2: is the quality of her friendships. Friends are the biggest
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: source of joy and the biggest source of concern for
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  Speaker 2: a ten year old. Would that be a fair assumption.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that drive to fit in to find my group,
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  Speaker 1: I think are changing girls. It's keeping them awake at night.
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  Speaker 1: It's dictating how they think, how they dress, the opinions
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  Speaker 1: they have. And I think this is one of the
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: really sad things because Carlie, you know, as a girl,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: female support is something for our generation has been so wonderful.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's your heartbreaks when your best friend's heartbreaks.
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  Speaker 1: But our girls are seeing friendship a bit like a
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: hot chocolate, something that's really fast and really delicious, and
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  Speaker 1: we know it's not. You know, one school principle said
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  Speaker 1: to me, Tony Ridden from Saint Aiden's here in Brisbane,
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  Speaker 1: said to me that she didn't have a really good
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  Speaker 1: friend until she first started at university. And we know
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  Speaker 1: in a good friendship sometimes we have to forgive the
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  Speaker 1: misdemeanor when it's smaller than the friendship. And I think
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  Speaker 1: our girls have no idea how to actually build a
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  Speaker 1: friendship and cultivate it and to use forgiveness as part
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  Speaker 1: of that toolkit.
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  Speaker 3: I'm wondering, Madonna, if you can share with us, what
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  Speaker 3: are some things that we can help our ten year
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  Speaker 3: olds do so that they can actually start to develop
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  Speaker 3: those positive relationships recognizing, like you said, they take time,
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  Speaker 3: and sometimes we kind of just want to fall into
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  Speaker 3: place with our bestie, you know, on day one, and
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  Speaker 3: it doesn't usually happen like that. So what's something that
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  Speaker 3: we can do as parents to kind of help support
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  Speaker 3: our ten ages in doing this.
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  Speaker 1: I think that the smartphone has made this so much
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  Speaker 1: harder because even in brief lockdowns, schools are reporting girls
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: have lost socialization skills. So one school said to me
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: that in year five and six they had to sit
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: girls across the table and teach them again to look
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  Speaker 1: at the girls they were talking to. I think friendship
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  Speaker 1: used to come fairly naturally because we didn't have that.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: We didn't have this marketing wallpaper of noise that these
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: girls are faced with. And we have to fill their
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: toolkit with the ability to be able to do two things.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: One is to be able to decide on their boundaries
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  Speaker 1: in friendship. Will I accept this or will I not?
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  Speaker 1: Will I play this role or will I not? Will
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I change how much of me to fit in? And
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: what won't I do? And once our girls are clear
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  Speaker 1: on those boundaries, we have to then give them the
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: ability or the words to articulate that so that they
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: can go and do that when they have to. And
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  Speaker 1: that doesn't come naturally, you know, as one person said
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  Speaker 1: to me, they have to practice that. We have to
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  Speaker 1: role model it so that we can say, look, if
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  Speaker 1: this happens, how would you handle it, what words would
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  Speaker 1: you use? Would you accept that behavior? Let's just go
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: through how that might work. And it seems so little,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: and it seems almost silly that we have to do that.
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  Speaker 1: But my experience is that this issue of friendship is
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: tearing our girls apart. It's making them, giving them an
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: inability to sleep at night. It's the first thing they
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: wake up, and many of them aren't concentrating on their
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: schoolwork because they're worried about what is going to happen
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: at lunchtime.
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  Speaker 2: It feels like this could be really good advice for
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: adults as well. I know plenty of adult women who
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: will say exactly the same thing. It starts young and
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  Speaker 2: maybe even at some adult men.
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  Speaker 1: Well, that's probably true. And one other thing that I
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: think that we can do as adults is is not
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: label our children. I had parents say all thoughts of
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: things to me, like, you know, mine's the peacemaker. I
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: have a messenger. I have a queen Bee. I don't
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: know why, but I think mine might be a mean girl.
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  Speaker 1: And every expert I spoke to said to me that
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: girls will learn to be the label they're given. And indeed,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: girls describe their role in a friendship group in terms
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: of the label they were given. So let's not do
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  Speaker 1: that either, And it's easy to say, we've got to
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: actually think about it so that we don't do it.
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  Speaker 3: One of the other things that really stood out to
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: us as we worked our way through the book was
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: this idea around bullying. It just blows my mind that
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: our children are having to navigate this space and no
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: longer is it face to face Madonna. We're also dealing with,
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: you know, online bullying and they can't actually ever get
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  Speaker 3: away from it. So what are some things that you
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  Speaker 3: discovered through your research in relation to bullying and these
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  Speaker 3: little ten year olds?
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  Speaker 1: Now, you know, I'm not sure there is any need
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  Speaker 1: for a ten year old to have a smartphone other
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  Speaker 1: than for medical issues or communication issues that are out
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  Speaker 1: of the norm. But if the sixteen hundred months I
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  Speaker 1: serve are surveyed, fifty percent of them said they'd given
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: their child a smartphone, and particularly in Victoria, that was
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: as a result of lockdown, so she could stay in communication.
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  Speaker 1: I think we need to delay introduction as long as
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: we can, and if we have introduced it, we need
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: to set boundaries. And you guys know this, but this
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: idea of deciding when it can be used too, they
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: can be in contact that the privacy settings are at
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: the top, the number of followers. We know there is
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  Speaker 1: software that allows you to turn it on and off,
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  Speaker 1: that it's available at this time and not that time.
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  Speaker 1: Let's use that to the best of our ability so
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  Speaker 1: that we teach our children how to use social media responsibly,
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  Speaker 1: rather than you know, hand them the keys of a
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  Speaker 1: car and say take it for a run.
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  Speaker 2: Madonna so much in this conversation around friends, bullying and
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: getting relationships right. I wish we could explore that for
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: the rest of the conversation. But in your book there
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: were a couple other surprises, and I want to talk
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: about those next. It's the Happy Families podcast.
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and donts
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: of Discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at happy
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: families dot com dot a you slash shop.
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today we
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: are talking with Madonna King about her latest book, Tenager.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Something that I loved reading this book, and so I
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: can't be objective about a parenting book, Madonna, and I
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: say that with the greatest of respect, but obviously, when
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: I'm reading a book about parenting, I've kind of read
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: all the research and I know what's going to come
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: up in the next chapter, and it's very hard for
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: me to read it through the eyes of a parent
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: who doesn't have a PhD in psychology, because that's who
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  Speaker 2: I am and what I do. But what I loved
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  Speaker 2: about the book is number one, You've got so many
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: voices and so many, so many ways of integrating a
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: tremendous amount of information. But there was a specific chapter
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: that really stood out to me. And maybe it's just
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: me and one of my peculiarities, but this chapter was
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: about girls and their participation in physical activity. You've just
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: been talking about body image and how that's increasingly a
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: significant concern for our children from as young as five
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: or six, let alone ten ages.
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: And then you launch.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Into this chapter about girls and their participation in physical activity,
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: not necessarily organized sport, but just their activity levels generally.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Would you share what you've found there, because it just
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: really it impacted me tremendously.
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  Speaker 1: So there's a couple of things. On one end. The
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: girls explained to me that often they stop, particularly dancing
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: and swimming around this age. Teachers report that they double
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: tog for swimming. I remember, jen, one little girl said
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: to me. Our dancing was something I did when I
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: was young, like nine. She's now ten. They all of
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: a sudden have to wear tight clothes and lea tas
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they're embarrassed about it, and
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: many of them stopped because it became competitive too. But
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: there was an interesting research that looked at a ten
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: year old sixteen years ago and a ten year old now.
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  Speaker 2: And this is what got me. This is the bit
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: that I thought was amazing. Sorry to interrupt, but I
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: just sad, be sad. Yeah, big exclamation mark about what
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: you're about to say.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was done in the UK. But the
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: bigger differences are shown between girls and boys in Australia
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: in the same age couphoord. So this doctor Gavin Sandercock,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: surveyed all these children at the same school year on
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: year on year on year, and what he's found over
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: sixteen years is a massive change in a girl's fitness level.
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  Speaker 1: For example, a peach test, which requires absolutely no skill,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: just peaching something, girls are fifteen percent weaker than they
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  Speaker 1: were sixteen years ago. In timed activity like a sit up,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: they are forty five percent slower. But what really got
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: me in the guts is they asked them to hang
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: from monkey bars and swing essentially, and sixteen years ago
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: everyone tried that activity. This time thirty percent said no,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: and when he asked why, they said they couldn't. Now,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: justin that is an indication of that infrastructure disappearing from
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: our public parks and our school grounds and as a
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: result of that, our girls I think are really suffering.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: And I say girls because while that survey showed no
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: real difference between boys and girls, surveys by ANU and
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Camberra University have shown quite a significance difference between boys
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: and girls at this age, with girls taking two thousand
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: steps less, having poorer respiratory health, being less involved in
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: sport from around this age, and it's not part of
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: our debate in this area, and given your lead in
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: on body image, it really needs to be. We need
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: to talk to girls about how their body works, not
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: what it looks like. And I've found that just heartbreaking
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: that the age of ten girls are worried about wearing togs,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: you know, or dance costumes, and the reasons behind that
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: worry should cause alarm amongst all of us.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Madonna. We have recently in the last few months, and
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: we've mentioned it on the podcast a couple of times,
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: our ten ager has started running with me in the mornings.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I've kind of given up my bike riding as much
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: as I live for my time on my bike, because
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: my teenager wants to be active and physical with her dad,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: and that means no more bike riding. But we go
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: for a run a few mornings a week so that
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: she can get that physical activity in and move her body.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: And reading that chapter just I think it really underscored
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: the importance of it, so much so that we've started
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: running past the park and hanging off the monkey bars
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: just to see if we can go a little bit
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: further and a little bit longer, and.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Good on you because, as you know, but I think
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of dads don't. The power of a dad
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: is just so important, and we found it was a
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: silver lining in COVID and Lockdown that so many girls
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: spent more time with dad, and I hope that continues
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: into the future.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: Madonna, I have five rapid fire questions for you that
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: I'd love to just tap into some of the little
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: nuances that you discovered as you researched this book.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: But this sounds a bit like an exam.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Well, I am glad that you're in the hot seat
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: and not me. I've got the questions in front of me,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: but I'm sure that we're going to be delighted by
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: some of the answers. So Number one, what was the
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: most delightful thing you heard from a ten year old?
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: How they describe themselves before that self confidence faults. They
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: describe themselves sweet and kind. My favorite was a girl
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: who said, Madonna, I am a friendship magnet. And I
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: think you know that was the most delightful thing. The
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: challenge is keeping that self confidence beyond ten.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what concerned you the most?
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: I think the ceiling our girls put on their potential too.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: Many nine and ten year olds said to me, I'm
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: not a maths scholar, I'm not a science girl. When
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: euroscientists say at ten, how do they know what type
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: of girl they're going to be? And I think they
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: take on the messages of those around them, and they're
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: feeling pressure from parents, from teachers, but mainly themselves. They
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: see in their little group that their marks are lower
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: than the others, and they make that decision then that
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: they're not going to excel, particularly at areas like maths
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: and science. And in talking to principles of co ed schools,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: it's not something that boys do. Boys see it as
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: a mark on the page. They don't take marks personally,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: where girls think this is a reflection on me, and
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: that develops a negative mindset and I just I find
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: that heartbreaking me too.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: That makes me sad.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: Number three, what gives you the most hope for these
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: ten year olds?
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: That they are so much more articulate that I could
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: ever be at this age. That social media, for all
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: its drawbacks, has certainly helped educate and provide an equality
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: of education amongst them. And I think if we can
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: just get them to use that voice and to run
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: their own race. They will be the most fab generation
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: of adults. We could imagine number four.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: If there was one thing you want parents to know
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: about their ten year old based on your research, what
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: would it be.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: I asked the five hundred girls, what do they want
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: from mum and what do they want from dad? And
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: it boils down to time with them and their touch,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: the hug, the arm around the shoulders, the comfort, the
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: being there. And you know the funny thing, Kylie, is
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: those two things cost nothing. Time and touch, and from
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: every expert I spoke to, they're the two things that
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: not only will change the trajectory of our girls tomorrow,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: but also into the future.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: You've got Kylie crying as you're sitting there.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Literally.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: What I love about that Ants and Madonna is just
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: this acknowledgment. You know, we watch our children as they
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: start to kind of grow up, and all of a sudden,
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: they get to this point where they're too big for
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: that hug and that touch, and yet you've just kind
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: of opened up this beautiful space where you're acknowledging that
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: as a ten year old, that's what they still want.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: And I just love that.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: Even when I write my book about teenage girls. They
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: still want it even when they're sixteen and eighteen. They
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: still love it, especially from dads who actually back away.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: But the thing is they don't often ask that's right,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: my parents. We've got to actually take the lead there,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and anyone can do it. You know,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: time does not cost us when it's our child.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Number five, lucky. Last question, what's next? You've written about
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: being fourteen, you've written about fathers and daughters and now
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: ten agers. But what's next on your agenda?
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Well, my daughters would say to stop writing periting books.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I'm in that with you as well.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Michael. I'm a journalist, and my goal
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: is never to be to pretend I'm a psychologist or
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: an educator. I have a passion for journalism and that
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: ability to get inside a ten year old's mind and
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: for her to be able to explain something that she
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: might find hard to explain to our parents, and to
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: put that in a book is something that, you know,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I'm just really proud of, and my goal is that
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: it hopes our girls and their parents.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Madonna, it's just been such a delight to talk with you.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time pleasure. Madonna King
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: is the author of the brand new book Tenager, as
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: well as being fourteen and Fathers and Daughters, an award
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: winning journalist and mum to a couple of girls herself,
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: and just an all round great person. It's been wonderful
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: to talk to you and Donna, we hope that you've
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: enjoyed the conversation about ten Ages. If you enjoy the podcast,
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: please lead a rating and review wherever you get your
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: podcasts so that more people can find out about it
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: and make their families happier. As always, we really appreciate
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: the work of Justin Rulan from Bridge Media for making
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: the podcast sound great, and our executive producer is Craig Bruce.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: If you'd like more information about making your family happier,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: visit happy families dot com dot au.