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NYPD Detective George Sichler · NYPD Through The Looking Glass

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: But I I looked at m that partner that night and I said, I'll never forget, I said, I don't want to do this, but we have to.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we have to do, you know, because the V berth is just there.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: We go underneath that boat, you know, if that air pocket collapses, you're you're going to the bottom of the Atlantic.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's 600 feet down.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: So like there's there's no and it's a fishing boat.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the entanglements and everything, everything is, you know, all over the place.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we deployed into the water and it was a pretty big sea state that day.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: We get there, we go underneath, and we start kind of, you know, looking around and grabbed him, and we could see bodies, right?
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: We could see by and the ocean was pretty clear that night, you know.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we had, you know, a a few feet of visibility, right?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: We were so far offshore, it didn't get mucked up by the silt and the the rivers and the mud and that kind of stuff.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we could we could see, thank God.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: And there were three bodies still under I remember.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: One was gonna be easy to get, and then there was another one that was kind of dangling down this way.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: You could see he was kind of like in the uh in the cabin area of the vessel, boats upside down.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we're working in there, you know, and we're and when I tell you pulling on him, we're physically fit, young guys pulling on him, feet up into the boat, pulling with our legs to try to get him out.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: The other set of feet were kind of settled, and we're like, what is that?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that guy alive?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: We couldn't tell because his head was so far in we couldn't see.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we're pulling on this guy, and then we start doing like we were we're medics too, right?
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, a thing that we'll do is you'll do a sternum rub to see if somebody's faking it, but we can't hit the guy's sternum.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I basically start pinching his legs, right?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: I start pinching his legs like to try to get him to react.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here with retired NYPD detective George Sickler.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: He worked in the Fox's 4-6 precinct, the scuba unit, the gang and gun, the gang unit, and the gun suppression unit, just to name a few.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: His new book, Walking Among NYPD Heroes, will be available soon on Amazon.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: George, welcome to the show.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Vic.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad to be here.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, George, tell us a little something about yourself.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I grew up in Throg's neck, you know, went to private school for a bit, could never get the cops and robbers thing out of my system, you know, after I graduated and just kind of my father was on the job back in the 60s.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't really t tell too many stories about it and stuff like that.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was the old times of you can't tell anybody dad's a cop, you know, kind of thing.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, so I he would always say that, tell people that he was a sanitation worker.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, well, that's just not school, you know?
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh couldn't get out of my system, went to the academy, and you know, it went on in 98.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it showed up in the 4-6, late 98, early 99, you know, uh was a great place to be a cop then.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, I caught the the tail end of you know the high crime, you know, crime was certainly on a di a decline, you know, prior to that.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the 4.6 had a great reputation um and was a great time being there with those, you know, with those guys and gals.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: You learned how to be a cop very, very quickly.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And you learned you learned what a meat grinder it can be, right?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Radio rang after radio run, and you know, the 4.6 was 0.9 square miles.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you race back and forth 20, 30 times a night.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it just you were nonstop.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it was a great place.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: It wore me down, I would say.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would say to myself that there's gotta be something else out there for me.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in 02, I guess, I dropped an application literally for just about everything.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: ESU, canine, bomb squad.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I had heard about scuba, and then I was able to kind of, you know, pass the physical fitness test and the written test, you know, and I like to say they picked me up in the first round of the draft and they stayed there for um, you know, for it was about 12 years, I think.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And we weren't getting any overtime at the time.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I had about five years left to go, four or five years left to go.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was like, I need to go someplace where I can make overtime.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: It took me a long time to get out, to be honest.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I ended up in DCO, didn't even know what that stood for or what it was.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Went there, you know, and used my brain instead of my body for a while.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it found it interesting from an investigative standpoint, but the puzzle palace was really not for me.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up doing a temporary assignment to gun violence suppression, and then I tried to get myself permanent there, and I did, had a little bit of a mix-up up there, and then sent over to the other side of the sheet rock, uh, ended up in the gang squad at the end of my career, which was and I wish I found those two units earlier in my career, to be honest with you.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: They were they were really two units that I looked back upon and the investigative capacity that the people possessed there, and it had all that same camaraderie and brotherhood, and you know, people really, you know, doing great work.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned, again, I was a 17-year rookie, basically, you know, in uh 18-year rookie in those commands.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they they taught me the ropes, and I was very grateful for them through, you know, for doing that.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you so you went to the 4-6 right out of the police academy, which is Baptism by Fire.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I came on a little before you, and everybody I knew wanted to go to the 4.6 and 4.4 because it was such a violent and busy precinct that you learned.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there was no place to hide in the 4.6 or the 4.4.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, no matter where you were, people were approaching you.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: There were gun collars, stolen cars, you name it.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: 4-6 was a very tight house.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Can you explain the mindset of a busy house like the 4-6, that mindset again like us against the world?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Vic, you hit the nail on the head, right?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't think that would be very popular to say, you know, now with the political climate and stuff, but like, you know, we would literally, you turn out a roll call and, you know, you felt like you went to war every night.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I never went to Afghanistan or anything like that.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I won't compare it to that.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, as far as on the streets of the city of New York, you know, there there were definitely good people that lived in the area, you know, but they were completely overshadowed by the just monotony of the senseless violence, drugs, urban decay.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And literally, like I'm I'm still very, very close.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: This 25, 28 years later, I'm very close with the people, you know, the handful of people that graduated with me that went to the four to 12.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, and it was and you literally, no matter what it was, you went there to help them.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And again, you didn't get alone with everybody, but you expected and I expected, and you expected, you showed up to everybody's 13, whether you wanted to have a beer with them or not, you know, and that's what it was like being a cop.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I baptism by fire is a very good way.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I remember, I remember being on the foot post, you know, 183 in Morris.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: We're walking back one night, uh, and the midnight tour had an incredible reputation, right?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: The four, six midnights was just, you know, senior, senior guys and super tight, and like you were afraid to walk past them as a rookie.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And we walked back, and there was like a dispute with a knife or whatever in one of the apartment buildings.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, so as we're walking back to command and the tour, because we did six to two, we were like, let's go, let's go check it out, right?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm uh I'm you know, two, three, four months on the job.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the midnight guy, I'll never forget, midnight guy standing in the doorway wouldn't let us through.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, he was like, You're not going in there.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we're like, well, why not?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, Because I don't know you, you know, and like that was revolutionary, you know?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then it, you know, you learned what that meant over time, you know, and it really just led to what that camaraderie, you know, would be.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that was probably one of the reasons why I joined the police department was, you know, to kind of have that thing that was bigger than me and be part of something that was greater than I am, you know.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I was very grateful for that.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but it wore me down, you know, after just, you know, three, four years on patrol, you know, it wore me down.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember the 4-6 was very for a smaller precinct, you had a lot of homicides in the 4-6.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, of course, it didn't have the square mileage of the 4-4, but they were up there every year with homicides.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: If the 4-4 had 120, the 4-6 would have 90.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: They were right behind.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember your first homicide as a rookie or young cop?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember, I don't remember the first one, but there's one and you actually might you might recall this.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it was it wasn't my first one, but I remember one was a guy who he actually, we had no idea.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: He was a retired MOS, and he was the chef for a restaurant on Westchester Avenue called Taramita, right?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: Down down by Bure, okay?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Italian restaurant underneath the L.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we would get lunch there when I, before I became a cop, we would get lunch there a couple of times a week.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we go to a, we go to a shots fired, call myself and my partner.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: We show up there, and there's there's two dead bodies in this, you know, attractive woman's apartment.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Start to try to figure out what's going on there.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And basically, that was his the chef, the retired MOS, that was his girlfriend.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he would bring her food.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: She found out that he was a restaurant tour and he would have cash on him.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So she set him up for a robbery.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And he he goes in, and I think there was more than one person in there.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Gun battle ensues, you know, and he he's shot.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'll never forget that, you know, in the hand, what that one looks like.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, he kills one of the perps.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: I don't remember if there was a second one, if somebody kind of ran off, but you know, it ended up being such a big deal because number one, it was a retired MOS.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, number two, it was because, you know, she had some sort of uh drug nexus, so they didn't know what that retired MOS, you know, had to do with it.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and he actually had nothing to do with it, right?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: He was just there delivering food, having a having a girlfriend that happened to live on, you know, 4-6 over in Sectaritis somewhere, you know.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't remember the very first one.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's there was there's more than a handful, you know.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I guess over years you, you know, you compartmentalize that.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: But that one, because I knew the guy, you know, because we literally got lunch from him, you know, multiple times.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it was a it was a pretty gruesome homicide, you know.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: George, you can't get out of the 4-6 without acquiring a few war stories.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share a few with us?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wasn't a rock'em sock'em guy, right?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was a patrol guy.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're they're certainly there.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I ended up, you know, never made it to anti-crime.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't, you know, domestic collars, pick up, you know, robberies, et cetera.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I I remember one thing that was a kind of a pivotal moment for me, right?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And as I kind of matured along the way and started to teach, you know, younger cops and stuff.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: My partner and I were watching a big fight, you know, uh somewhere.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And we were like, all right, some one of us was looking, you know, we were gonna take it.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And again, we collared for a day tour the next day because we had a party or something to go to, whatever, right?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: We weren't, you know, collars for dollars.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: We we took them when we needed them.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they were collars of convenience for us.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: But so, you know, that we're watching this big fight pop off, and you know, okay, you know, who's ever looking is gonna take the winner, and whoever's not looking is taking the loser to the hospital.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: And right, that's how it went, you know.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: So so we're watching the whole thing pop off, and the kid jumps out of the crowd in the center and pulls out a gun on us, and he starts to run across the front of the car.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And thank God, as the car, as he started to pull the trigger, it lit up like it was a like a it was a fake gun.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: That was one of those turning points that I said to myself, never again will I let someone get the drop on me.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that was one of those, you know, things that just really sticks in my mind.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and I and I it and it drives me crazy to this day.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like I live up in uh the northern suburbs of the city, and they play this at the end of the each school year, they play this assassins game, the the high school seniors.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's they basically take an airsoft gun and you you all the seniors that are playing, you know, you get to set up in somebody's driveway and assassinate them when they go to school, you know, kind of thing.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it they always end up running around town with, you know, with these fake airsoft guns.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I knew another kid back, you know, from from Throg's neck that they had kids I grew up with had pulled up on, they ended up in a bad spot.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: They ended up they needed money, and they ended up pulling up on Tremont Avenue, like Tremont and uh like like Harding, right over in there.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Pulled up, pointed a gun out the window, tried to do a robbery.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Guy was an off-duty MOS.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know I was, I wasn't even on the job at the time.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: MOS returns fire, right?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Shoots the kid away new, blah, blah, blah.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and those two things for me were just pivotal in me saying, like, never again will somebody get to have that advantage on me, right?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I was never I was not a heavy-handed guy, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you, if you deserved it, you know, you got it, you know, kind of thing, with with, you know, to affect the arrest, et cetera.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, it was easy for me at my size to not come across as being one of those victims, you know, like one of those easy police officers.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll treat you like a gentleman, you know, if you treat me like one.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: But if if you're not, we're gonna have a problem here, you know.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, but but those two stories combined for me were very pivotal in me moving forward and thinking more because again, when you get to the 4-6, you have no idea what's going on.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Why am I standing under a, you know, uh a fire escape?
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, why am I standing under an audit?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: You have no idea, you know.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: People can't throw stuff on top of you.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you you learn that pretty quick, you know.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, though those two things just got me to be much more in that mindset as you, you know, you had to learn very, very quickly, you know, just to get your street smarts about you.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I grew up in the Bronx, you know, I grew up in Throgs Neck, which wasn't wasn't the South Bronx, right?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but you still have a head on your shoulder.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: But they're two completely different things.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Completely different things.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, we grew up in the same neighborhood.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: I thought the same thing.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I was gonna hit the streets run and then I what the hell is this?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was a total I think.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I questioned what I, you know, the first couple of months in NSU, I was like, what did I is this for me?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like this is totally opposite of what I thought, but I figured it out.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you went to the scuba unit, what was the training like and how long was it?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's anywhere from six to twelve months, right?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when you screen for the team, they they do they say it's the hardest physical fitness test in the job and it's difficult, right?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you can't do 12 pull-ups, your first event, you go home, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So it's cumulative.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And is I want to say I took it with, I don't know, 60 or 80 people.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then my class, because it was again after 2001, we were the first class to go in 2002.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: So there's all those retirements, right, out of the that came out of the guys that worked 9-11, right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Because they basically had to with all the overtime they made.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, my group, I think I went with like eight people.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And there was out of 60 or 80 of us, I think only eight or 10 of us passed the test.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's kind of and that that's kind of historical, kind of historical.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: You get in there and you kind of start out right away.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: And again, very, you know, those are some, we'll call them salty guys, you know, that have that have been there.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um now you're, you know, it didn't matter where you came from, 4, 6, 7, 5, 13th precinct to first, but didn't matter.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't matter where you came from.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: You were in a completely new environment, you know, went in there and we weren't even allowed in in the office, you know.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was like, hey, you know, go scrub the boat, go you know, go wash the boat, go go figure something else out, but you're not gonna sit here with us.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you went, you did, you know, usually two dives a day, you would end up doing, and that usually it was more so for guns uh that we were looking, they'd have active gun jobs, et cetera.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: So like you'd start very innocuous in the in the base where there was no instruct obstructions, entanglements, et cetera, because everything we do, 90% of what we would do would be pitch black water, completely pitch black.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, once you get competent in the water with all your gear on, they take you out to aviation and kind of start doing that, progressing, jumping out the helicopter, you know, with just mask and snorkel, and then progressing to all the gear, which could be, you know, 75 or 100 pounds, and you're you're a dirt dart, you know, at that point, you know, with all that gear on.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you did that, but again, there was so there was such turnover in 2002, you know, that I it was probably about six months worth of training.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then after about six months, you were put into a squad.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think now they like to keep them nine to 12 months roughly, and there's a little bit more paperwork that's involved.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, you yeah, again, like what we would say is there's nobody coming for us.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I would I I I've been dropped off in a helicopter, you know, offshore two, three, four miles.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's me and you, you know, the helicopter left with the victim.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's me and you.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we didn't have a life raft, you know, maybe we might be swimming ashore, you know.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that was one of the things that we had to do, was we called it the gauntlet at the end of our summer training, was we would we would get deployed via aircraft.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was about a mile offshore in Rockaway.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you had to swim to shore.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you got to shore, there was one of the senior guys that was there, and he gave me a sneakers, and now they said, run back to Floyd Betterfield, you know.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: And when you got back there, you know, it was it was pretty amazing because the aviation guys are out there, they're barbecuing for you and stuff.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, but but so my class went pretty quickly because they needed the bodies.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, now with the I think they go about nine to 12 months now.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, you just you dive every day, and then again after 9-11, you had to start to learn to, you know, search critical infrastructure like the Brooklyn Bridge.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody knows we dive the Brooklyn Bridge, but you're looking for anomalies, you know, could a terrorist try to blow up the bridge, et cetera, and other pieces of critical infrastructure, you know, underwater.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, a lot of times, like for Fleet Week or July 4th, Navy EOD would come in, usually from Detach Mineral, which is in New Jersey, you know, and you'd work, you know, work alongside with Navy EOD, et cetera.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, we got to do a lot of really cool things.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I wouldn't say, you know, ESU is certainly busier on a day-to-day basis, you know, they're out there running around doing that kind of thing.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: But for us, you know, we got to do a lot of really cool things.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And because there was so few of us, like, you know, there was no court, there was no, you know, details.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, we can't, there's 30 guys, 35 guys, you know, running, you know, and and you know, they can't afford to lose somebody, you know, to to go somewhere.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: So we're talking about being a dirt dart in your book, you speak about dropping from a helicopter into pitch black water.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: The first time you did it, I mean, did you question your sanity?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: What was that like?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I had some experience recreationally diving in Long Island Sound, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like down by all the beach clubs, Vic along country club.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I I wasn't I wasn't new to dark water diving.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, because we used to go look for lobsters back in the 80s and 90s, right?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: You just you take a flashlight, find the hole, stick your hand in there, and try to pull out a lobster.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, that was that the dark water wasn't the worst.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: The entanglements that you have in the East River, the Hudson River, Central Park, etc.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because again, you're you're swimming through it.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately for me, it never happened.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I think one of the things that I would be absolutely petrified of was, you know, you're swimming along.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: When you're swimming for a body, you're you're going, you're going super fast, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's time, you gotta be that's why you gotta be so physically fit, right?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're swimming against the current super fast, as quickly as you can to try to find that victim underwater.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and you could be swimming along and picture an upside-down shopping cart, you swim into it, you know, and the thing closes on you in the back.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like that for that never happened, you know, but like to me, in the back of my mind, that was always one of the things, like that could be the worst type of entrapment because you know, you can't, you can't inflate your stuff to try to raise, you know, there was just there was almost no way out of that, you know.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So again, it never happened, you know, it could be far-fetched, but that's just one of the things where your imagination, you know, is kind of running.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, because again, when we're looking for things, it's by feel, right?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: So if we're looking for a body, right, is that a, you know, is that an old two by four or is that a leg?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so like your your mind is thinking about things underwater because you can't see.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, it's one of those, you know, this this would be pretty bad, you know, if that would happen.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, we are underneath a, you know, a tugboat or a barge looking for explosives for July 4th, you know, like you, you know, some of them are big enough and you can get you know lost down there, you know, and and um and we don't dive tethered.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that was one of the differences between us ESU and the fire department is it's me and you, and we're not we're not tethered to the surface, right?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we we do that for reasons of being dynamic and being able to, you know, be f be free with our movements, et cetera.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we dictate the pace of what we do underwater.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: But uh it was a great time.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean you look back and you know, it was really certainly the highlight of my career, you know, certainly the highlight of my career.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I stayed there for a long time.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: And because it's so difficult to get into, I like to think that it has a bit more of an esprit decor than your four six, your seven five, your, you know, your guys, and they all have those that tightness, but you know, and people are always surprised to hear there is no hook to get into scuba.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to pass that physical fitness test.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right, you know, so everybody's there for the same reason.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that, you know, some people squeak through that really I would probably rather have not been with, you know, just based on personality, but you know, that gets rid of a lot of people, right?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the dark water, the cold water, February, that water wants to take your life every day, right?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: You're in there, you know, wearing a full dry suit, but even after 20 minutes, 30 minutes, it's like, you know, you're you're you're battling hypothermia.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the water is not forgiving.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, nobody's coming for us.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if we're on a boat offshore in a helicopter, you know, there is no 13 for us.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why that physical fitness test is so important because you and I, it has happened to me, right?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: You and I, a helicopter left.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's just me and you now.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, we've got to figure out what we're gonna do here, wait for the boat to come pick us up because it's on its way or whatever.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, so that it's it's a very, it's a very proud unit.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just because not a lot of people have ever been there.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I was one of one of the first hundred people in the history of the department to get to the team, right?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_01: So the team started in 1965, you know, and I was like 99, 100, 101, somewhere right around there.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: But there's so few people that have actually been through the unit.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody on patrol ever deals with us, you know, sort of no idea what we're doing, and no, and you can't see what we're doing.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: So like you go down to the bottom and you see bubbles sometimes, you know, you're doing a magic trick down there, you know.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it was a great place, you know, and it still is a great place, you know.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're driving a boat, you're flying around in helicopters, and you know, coming back in July, flying along rockaways with your feet hanging out of the helicopter, waving at people and stuff like that.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how's it gonna be better than that?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: You you mentioned, and I hadn't thought of that, but you mentioned about you'll get calls to die for a gun.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: How many guns have you pulled out of the water?
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure you were looking for a shotgun and pulled a 38 out.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's gotta happen a lot.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: It it happens often.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it definitely, you know, I mean, does it?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: And again, guns were one thing, bodies were another.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: You wanted to be a body snatcher, you know.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, the I remember the first guy, you know, that got his first body, you know, in our summer, summer detail 2002.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, oh man, I can't believe he's got a you know, he's got his first body.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: know, like you always you for when you're when you're a young guy with nothing else to do, right?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: You you want it to be that body stature.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, that was one of the things when we would we would talk to the squad and the squads were always amazing.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we were like they were looking for a 38.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well if I pull up a 45, it's yours too.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you got to understand that like, you know, we don't voucher, we don't have a, you know, we don't have a property room, et cetera.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the squad guy's like, no, no, we got it.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: We're all good.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and you know, you had this incredible relationship with the squad.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I remember one right before I left the team, there was, we were at Chelsea Piers, and he was a fashion designer that had gone missing.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we we pulled into Chelsea Piers, we had to set up a pattern, a dive pattern.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then my wife and my my kids had kind of come for a my last boat ride, you know, uh, because I was pretty much I knew I was leaving imminently.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the squad's there, we're looking for a body and like the squad was, you know, but and that's what the brotherhood is, right?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're like, what are you doing here?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like well that's my husband down there.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you know like and they it just I mean you can't say enough about squad detectives either, right?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was never a squad detective.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't want to be one, you know, catching those cases and you know wrapping around and that that crazy chart that they do.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, you just have this mutual respect for each other and and the the respective jobs that people do.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you know so I remember we we we end up finding the dude um you know and he's in a body bag or whatever and my kids are you know running down to the boat, run right past the car, making garbage have no idea what's in there.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, so the squad takes him and you know drives them where we could pick him up and you know take him take the kids for the last boat ride.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know so but you know the the squad was always great.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know the squad was always great.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well during your time in Scuba you were working Hurricane Sandy in your book you describe it as something out of apocalypse now.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Hurricane Sandy was interesting.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you know they they swapped our tours.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: We usually we did like 7 p.m to 7 a.m or something like that.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they kept it right around there where they abbreviated three to three or six to six, something like that, right?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: When the whole the the whole job goes to you know those 12 hours.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: But we were pretty much already worked them anyway.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I, you know, I left you know work and they they forward deployed us right so instead of going to Floyd Bennett Field where the aircraft was all the aircraft had flown up to Newburgh okay because they knew that you know there was going to be the storm was going to make landfall and there'd be that storm surge, right?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: So all the aircraft flew up to Newburgh and they staged up the aircraft in Newburgh.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I got deployed to launch repair shop, you know, on standby, which is uh Rose is it underneath the tribe was at uh Randall's Island.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Randall yeah so we were there you know and again it the storm's not there yet but come you know a couple of hours things are starting to get interesting you know we're looking out the back and we could see the water starting to come up into launch repair shop which is which is an anomaly right because you're in the Harlan River right and that water doesn't surge that that way up there.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: So we knew things were getting serious and then you know you turn on different divisions and you could hear like you know cops in precincts in the 100 101 like you know they're they're losing the the precinct.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: So we end up grabbing like we had a van, you know, and our deer and then we drove we were deployed out to Staten Island.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: Half the team went to Rockaway uh and half of us went to Staten Island.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember very vividly driving over like the Gowanas through Industry City and I we could see the water and it's dark out now but it's probably like you know 9, 10, 11 o'clock or whatever we could see the Industry City buildings all the water was already past them.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it was like once in a lifetime like you don't see that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Get over the Verrazano you know and and the fan is back and forth over the Verizano you know kind of thing and there was no radio right the you know 911 was down.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we reported to Truck 5 where we were given a literally given a piece of paper with a job on it and said this is where you have to go.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, no radio no comms and in the infinite wisdom of the police department which was you know uh let's say underprepared right we we had dry suits and fins you know that that's all we had.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: We'd never we'd have a boat we'd have anything so we actually ended up it was myself my partner longtime partner and a supervisor and we ended up going through people's yards right checking to make sure people were out we came across a canoe right so we proliferated that canoe like that canoe was now ours.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: No oars so we found you know pieces of two by fours right we used two by fours as oars.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Remember going to one Vic, you know we were driving or paddling down uh probably Highland Boulevard one of the major major thoroughfares and the water is up to the street lights right the stoplights like never seen him anything before my transformers on the side are on fire.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know they're sparking and stuff.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we we we had this assignment that we had to go find a chief one of the chiefs from the department he did not evacuate so we were told to go get him and bring him to I I'm gonna say truck five, right?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was probably the borough and bring him there.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know we had we we I'd never been on the land in Staten Island, right?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know the waterways, you know, but I'd never been to land in Staten Island.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: So trying to figure out with no map, no street signs because they're buried, paddling around, you know, we finally get there and I looked to my partner one point and I said we both said like we we may not come home tonight.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know like it was that it was that severe we get to we had to do canoe portages right because some places you know where the water's a little bit lower could paddle carry it it was like literally like an adventure race like the amazing race.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're carrying the canoes and stuff get to his house knocked on his door he's surprised to see us you know it's two two dudes in black dry suits said you know we were told you're coming with us and he's like well what about my wife and I was like I don't you know I don't know it's like she can come with us too like why are we getting there?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: That canoe no no no no I'm not I'm not getting in that canoe you know like where's the like you don't understand like Staten Island's underwater you know um so we we went back and forth with him for a little while but he was a chief at the end of the day I couldn't kidnap him you know um so all that risk for basically for nothing get back and then we had other jobs here and there that we're getting people you know out of uh attics third floor apartments it's all night the storm's blowing all night it was an MOS that was killed he he he evacuated his family and we went back the next morning we couldn't get him the night of because it was too dangerous.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: We waited for like the storm to kind of go and and and some his house was so far underwater that if he was in the basement we couldn't penetrate to get down there.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we had to wait for some of the water to recede.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: ESU helped us get actually we ended up helping ESU you know we we took out the MOS he died saving his family uh off duty and then worked all night and then the other thing I'll never forget was we got a job where a woman said her kids got washed away and we the day tour had come in and they said well we're gonna give this to the day tour.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously you know we you you always listen we're cops we want to be involved in the big one right uh the day tour ends up getting it we find out that day that basically what happened with that woman was she ends up getting she's out made a bad decision she's trying to seek refuge now in somebody's house knocks on the door with her toddlers and says listen my car is underwater you have nowhere to go can we come in your house the guy says no close the door on her and then her children were washed away and the day tour guys end up finding those kids uh after the storm receded basically like on the shoreline in the high you know in the high weeds and stuff like that one of the worst stories I could ever think of right uh period you know just somebody says no I'm not gonna let you take refuge and and her two little kids were dead you know but Hurricane Sandy was that night you know was was just an incredible experience you know all for for multiple reasons right like it was definitely one of the big ones for me.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: It it just I mean I was already retired but from everything I've heard it was awful.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah George you were also involved in a rescue with the entrance to the Ambrose Channel can you go into that?
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah definitely uh you know so I I was very fortunate I will say my partner and I, you know we were we were stationed out of Floyd Bennett Field.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: We're on the helicopter for the night the tones go off right and you hear it's a uh and it comes over channel 16.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: 16 is the VHF radio right the Coast Guard are used channel 16.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not a 911 call.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes over the maritime radio like you don't get prank calls usually and if they if they are you can tell right away you know like kind of thing.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's 10, 11 o'clock at night, we get the we we get the information, we start to head out offshore, you know, and the boat's leaving from Brooklyn Army Terminal.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Probably an it's at least an hour, an hour and a half ride for the boat to get out there.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: So we fly out and we can see so what happened was there's an ocean going tug pulling a barge.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: In between that barge is a tow line it's called the houser line and it's usually you know a couple inch thick steel cable okay and it's tight but it'll droop in the middle.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: The fishing boat didn't know what the again there's the the rules of the road for for the ocean or any vessel, right?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: Any any mainland vessel, there's there's light configurations on the mast.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: And when you look at that with experience or school you know what that means.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't didn't see it didn't know it for whatever reason so they tried to pass between the barge that was lit and the tugboat that was lit.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: But the tugboat was clearly showing signs that he was in a long tow 200 meters or greater right so they tried to thread that needle hit that steel cable flips the boat over okay I think one of the one of the passengers was ejected gets picked up either by the tugboat or or Coast Guard who ended up coming out there.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we get there and the only thing sticking out of the water is the V-birth right so like it's just the tip of the boat.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: The rest of the boat's on the water and they've confirmed that there's still multiple people missing.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: So you know again I'm making it sound like my two stories are they were pretty serious but I I looked at that partner that night and I said I'll never forget I said I don't want to do this but we have to this is what we have to do you know because the V-birth is just there we go underneath that boat you know if that air pocket collapses you know you're you're going to the bottom of the Atlantic it's 600 feet down.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: So like there's there's no and it's a fishing boat.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So the entanglements and everything everything is you know all over the place.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So we deployed into the water and it was a pretty big sea state that day we get there we go underneath and we start kind of you know looking around and and I I learned the lesson on my first my first deployment from Air C was a was a senior guy and he wasn't even that senior it was probably two years ahead of me but I went under the boat you know back in City Island you know five, six years before that he he grabs me, pulls me back and taught me how to work from the rail right this way we always had a way to get out.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you know my partner started doing the same thing I grabbed him and we could see bodies right we could see body and the ocean was pretty clear that night you know so we had you know a a few feet of visibility right we were so far offshore it didn't get mucked up by the silt and the the rivers and the mud and that kind of stuff.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we could we could see thank God and you see a couple of bodies we knew the one was going to be easy to get there were three bodies still on that I remember one was going to be easy to get and then there was another one that was kind of dangling down this way.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: You could see he was kind of like in the uh in the cabin area of the vessel both upside down his head would be up towards the the bottom because it was upside down his feet are sticking down and then we can see another set of feet going into the uh cabin.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: So okay we've we've got the three right we we know who's missing we got the three one's gonna be easy to get so we start trying to get the first guy whose feet are dangling right and we we pull him he doesn't come so we're like okay maybe maybe he's wearing a PFD maybe he's wearing flotation maybe he's tangled in something right so we're working in there you know and we're and when I tell you pulling on him we're physically fit young guys pulling on him feet up into the boat pulling with our legs to try to get him out the other set of feet were kind of settled and we're like what what is that?
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like is that guy alive?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: We couldn't tell because his head was so far in we couldn't see.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we're pulling on this guy and then we start doing like we were we're medics too right so you know a thing that we'll do is you'll do a sternum rub to see if somebody's faking it, but we can't hit that guy's sternum.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I basically start pinching his legs right I start pinching his legs like to try to get him to react you know and he doesn't react to me satisfactorily.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like I passed him off as basically dead you know can't when we're working to get the other guy out can't get him out we couldn't get the third guy anyway because we still had to get you know the one guy that we thought was was trapped first stacked on the other body.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you know we look at our air and we're at we we got to go you know we're we're out of air you know and you know I don't we have no reference to has this boat, you know, we're looking at our depth gauge.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: So we know like the boat really hasn't gone anywhere yet.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we're like, you know, we got to go.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we grab the one guy that was easy, pull him out, we signal hand signal for the rescue basket.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: They come in, they drop the rescue basket down, we put the victim in there.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: So now we're we're looking at our air gauge and we're like we really don't have enough to go back in, you know um so it's just me and him at midnight bobbing in the water with you know you could see boat bites around but there was nothing else like so nobody was coming to get us.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it was and and we're a coup more than a couple of breaths but probably two or three minutes from zero air right and we're still wearing our masks.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we got to the point that we were just about to ditch gear, right?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: To make ourselves ultra buoyant because once we're out of air, the tank is useless, our weight belt is useless, our mask useless and we're fighting to kind of keep, you know, to kind of keep ourselves up there.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just about to ditch and the helicopter comes in one more time and they um I don't know if they grab us by the hook or the basket and they they bring us back and they they brought us back in.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we we both go into the ship, the aircraft and uh they're like the pilot's like great job great job and I was like there's still two more bodies and he was like holy shit holy shit so we had a fly back they needed fuel we had no more air and we fly back you know we we unload the one body the hot fuel which is the the blades keep running they they fill it boats on its way out there both gets there the second time before we got there both deploys those two divers.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: They were basically in standby right like if something happens to our guys we're now the rescue system.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we're just you know circling around waiting and then they say okay prepare to take on board a victim.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, take on board a victim.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: So the crew chief is out on the skid of the aircraft I mean he's he's bringing up the hoist uh with the with the basket and we're we're we have like what's called a gunner's belt right so like you're tethered to the aircraft by like a seatbelt with a waistbelt on right so I could move around I could get out on the skid with him et cetera so I'm kind of looking over to see and I see the same set of Timberland boots that I saw.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like that's weird.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know I'm like why like why are we taking up a body you know like that's we don't we don't do that you know so the it's coming up and then one and literally like see this.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know the the eyes flicker and I was like cruise chief is looking at me like holy shit you know so I'm telling my partner and I was like is that the same guy he looks over and he's like it's the same boots like unless there was another one like where so the guy comes in the aircraft right he's alive and we start to triage him.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we said I said to him where were you?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: He goes I was in the cabin I go you were the guy with the other body he goes yes I was holding onto my friend that's why you couldn't get him out we had no idea right and he was so wedged in there that the only thing that would happen once in a while was his feet would do this you know and I didn't know if it was current I didn't know if it was a wave or whatever you know because and we tried to like we tried to see if he was alert by like by by giving him a little bit of pain right like a little bit of pain stimulus.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: So he he gets in and we're like you didn't feel his pulling on him he was like I thought it was a sea monster.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: So right so we ended up flying back with with with that guy and we were like I mean we couldn't get him anyway right because we were literally we were literally fighting another man to try to get him out you know underwater.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we we fly him back within a week or two that there were two survivors right there was the one guy that originally got ejected right that that either Coast Guard or the tugboat picked up and then there was the guy that we hoisted into the aircraft.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: And within a week or two the uh captain of the vessel who was ejected originally he died of a heart attack so really the only guy that ended up surviving was that one victim that we were unable to get out before we ran out of air.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: How how from start to finish how long were you out there?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: Probably two hours you know probably probably two hours you know again like we probably ripped through our it's probably a you know call it a five or six minute helicopter flight, you know, do a couple of orbits to to to size a, to size up the scene deployed, we'd probably rip through our air in about 30 minutes, right?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because and usually we could, you know, on the surface like that, if we were just you know kind of cruising along looking for a gun, I could do over an hour, you know, without you know just again we were because of fitness.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_01: But because we were working so hard, you know, you're you're really exerting yourself.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we ripped through that air they had to come back they pick us up fly back and then I remember I remember the midnight supervisor from aviation he was a sergeant great guy.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: They're all great guys.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: He was working he's got to hot fuel the aircraft because it's it's October right it's midnight in October and and like you know we're low staffing guys want to take off or whatever.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like nothing what happens on a Tuesday night in October, you know?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: So Chief Malloy, I think he might have been Inspector Malloy at the time he was the exo of SOD.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: He ends up having to go into ops to work the phone because the sergeant is hot fueling the aircraft and then he calls me as we're like unloading stuff and putting new tanks into the ship and stuff.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: He was like Espo is on the phone for you.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I said I can't talk to him right now.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: I said I have to go you know it's a career render any other day, you know, but you know we we knew that our guys were getting ready to deploy and we knew you know that it was you know it it could end up being a pretty hairy situation.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: They were very smart.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: When they got there they ended up tying off that vessel to the the police boat right so realistically at that point it's probably not taking you to the bottom of the ocean.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: You're still gonna get trapped under there but you're not going down 600 feet.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we didn't have that ability to do that.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: We we couldn't do that my partner and I and those guys another funny story was when the when the other guys go in from the from the boat go in, again it was my good friend that I did Hurricane Sandy with, right?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: He was on the boat that night and he's in there because we told him over the radio listen we can't get the guy out we don't know what it is.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: He's entangled in something.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: So he's up there poking his head around trying to figure out and he gets a hand on his shoulder right and he scares the hell out of him turns around and that was the guy in the Timberlands.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: So he was like holy crap he's alive you know because we we thought he was dead and because we couldn't get to him.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: So he literally gives him a scoop of lesson underwater under the boat right shows him takes his tax octopus puts in his mouth gets him to do it that little air pocket right that little air pocket and he tells the other diverse prepare to take one you know so I call him Captain Danger in my book that was his call sign but Tommy like a big fit dude of great dude and uh my friend starts to take him and the guy panics and starts to kind of jet back in.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: He was like he like I'm not doing this.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then Tommy ends up like grabbing Tommy was so strong he grabs him and he just manhandled him out of the boat with nothing in his mouth but the guy ended up holding his breath and they put him you know they put him back on the boat.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: But what I what I do have to say Vic is that the guys on the boat that didn't dive that night don't get enough recognition.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know we were the people that went in the water that was our day.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like any one of those two guys that they could have been any one of the four of us and the job would have gone the exact same way.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it just happened to be those were the four numbers that got called that night you know but I and I think that's the case in a lot of police involved incidents where, you know, it it it we all have that ability to do it, you know?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you know those those two guys without them being so proficient at running and working that boat it would have been disaster.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know so it really was one of those teams, right?
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you call it scuba unit with the only place in the job it's called the scuba team, right?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: Canine unit, aviation unit, gang, you know, gang squad we're a team you know and that night proves that we are a team you know because everybody could fill into any single one of those roles at any given second.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Another thing you were involved in that I found fascinating you were involved in that fatal East River crash to claim the the life of a woman celebrating a birthday with her family.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: That again like I talked about that one because to me it was because of the professionalism of the guys on the team.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we were you know probably I forgot exactly where we were that that day but we were probably just you know bopping around in a boat like you know you know call it somewhere around you know South Street Seaport, you know, so we weren't far.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Call comes over multiple calls so you know it's kind of legit.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: We show up there and then Vic when I tell you in three dives I went in first with somebody we found the helicopter right again low on air tied off the tied off the helicopter so the next guy's coming down they're gonna have to find it again.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Next guy goes in, gets the the last remaining body out right one dive he's out and then the next dive guys went in, rigged it put it on the Army Corps boat we were done in three dives three dives you know but again it just it just goes back to saying that there's a camaraderie and the Sprita Corps for the for the guys and there's one girl there now and then from what I understand the guys absolutely love her.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: She's great.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: But like the the the specialty the teamwork the professionalism in three dives we had found the helicopter removed the body and put it on the Army Corps vessel all within had to be under two hours you know the the entire thing it was that quick.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: George I have to ask because this this fascinates me how did you get involved in the training for the movie John Wick?
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like who reached out to you?
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: What was the initial request?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a great it's a great question Vic.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: So years ago When I was with Scuba, we would cross-pollinate.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_01: We would work with Navy EOD.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: We were also working on another project at the time.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: It ended up not going anywhere.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: We were working on using rebreathers, right?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Rebreathers for various reasons.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we we don't have any experience with rebreathers.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Who has experience with the rebreathers, seals?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we ended up sending a couple emails.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Some guys are coming to teach us, blah, blah, blah, whatever.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up hitting it off with this guy, you know, and I ended up kind of just bumping into him somewhere at a trade show somewhere.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, oh, you're so-and-so, whatever, right?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: So he was working with a gentleman, a guy named Harry Humphreys.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: He was a Vietnam era seal.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: Harry ended up doing uh Black Hawk Down, 13 Hours was a recent one for him.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Harry's got 200 movies to his credit, right?
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like he's he's the guy.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um so The Rock, Harry's in the Rock, right?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: All those movies, those are Harry's movies.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: So my buddy Nick, who was going to teach us how to use the rebreather, calls us one day and he says, we we're filming, what was the movie?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Transformers 2 in Eastern Pennsylvania.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's about an hour from, you know, Lower Manhattan.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not far.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: The extras backed out.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: We need people that can handle firearms, right?
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_01: We had special weapons, rifles, et cetera, blah, blah, blah.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I said, yeah, like me and my teammate, you know, actually the one from the helicopter job, like, we'll come and do it.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we'll we'll come down there and do it.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: So ended up meeting Harry, you know, and again, just kind of hit it off.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then Harry, little by little would just start to, he kind of liked me.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: He would start to give me a job here and there.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: And Harry lived in California at the time.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes if we was they didn't want to fly him back to New York.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I ended up doing a bunch of his East Coast stuff.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: One of the so I did Ninja Turtle, I'm sorry, did uh Transformers 2 with them.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then I might have did another one, you know, there.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then Harry gave me a couple of tabletop exercises to do for him.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, okay, this is kind of going okay.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't know where John Wick was going to be at the time.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had no idea what it was going to be.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: So he was like, all right, this is what I want you to do.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Go do this one.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I ended up going to teach Keanu Reeves, who I didn't know from a hole in the wall.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: Worked with them two or three days and ended up, I'm the guy that told him, don't do this, the Wick flick, you know.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: So he ended up picking that up for a range safety officer.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is that?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's really cool.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, stop, timeout.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, we don't do that.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I had been through some some very prestigious, you know, firearm schools to that point, you know.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I was I was competent.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, you know, police ain't doing that, special forces ain't doing that, Delta Force is not doing that.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's not a thing.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: And these are the reasons why.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_01: But he loved it, you know, and I couldn't talk him out of it.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then the rest is history, you know, the rest is history that he did it.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was the guy that told him don't do that.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, do you have Keanu's number?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: And can we speak to him now?
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I don't.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: So like the one story that I will tell you is that I've actually never I've never told the story before.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: But uh I was working with him for a couple of days.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it was one of my it's like my first movie on my own that I that I had done.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I was pretty low-key, naive, you know, so to speak, you know, and I would, you know, talk to him back and forth, but not like, let's take pictures, you know, kind of thing.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's a no-no.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he was shooting a couple of things, you know, to I'll abbreviate the story a little, shooting a bunch of different things.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's moving or it's a moving target, you know.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm teaching him that I transition rifle, the pistol, back and forth, reloads, et cetera.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: So he drops the last magazine, shows me safe, clear, and empty, goes clear, and I go, you really scared the heck out of that thing, didn't you?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because he didn't hit it a whole bunch of times.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then I never got John with tube.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of the running joke.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that was it, but you know, that was one of the one of the things that the guys always say to me, like, why didn't you get number two?
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I kind of poked a little bit of fun at him a little bit, but he was an absolute gentleman, you know, but I wouldn't say that, you know, we were, we were, we were sociable.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, George, after your NYPD career, you become a public speaker.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're very passionate about suicide prevention with members of law enforcement.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I retired.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: I was teaching a lot of like tactical class, et cetera, firearms, vehicle counterambush, medicine.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was doing all these different things.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it was doing pretty well.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went to see uh an event, a wellness event, somewhere in Westchester with my wife.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw the speaker on stage.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_01: He was just a clinician, right?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: Wasn't a cop, wasn't a fireman, was nothing.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's kind of talking on stage, you know, uh, during this presentation.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I turned to her and looked to her and I said, That's me, isn't it?
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: She said, Yeah.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I get emotional about it, right?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: So really from that day, I said, these are this is the reason, some of the reasons why we, as collectively, as a, you know, as a career, as a profession, do the things that we do, behave the way that we do, manifest itself.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: Had no idea, you know?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so really started to kind of unpack that.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was retired.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm retired five years, you know, at that point, you know.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I what I like to say is like I don't I can't go to your 13 on the street anymore.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'd love to, right?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing more that I'd love to go to somebody's 13 again, you know, save them, everything's gonna be great, you know, that that kind of thing.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to go to the 13 in your house, you know.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: So like that's my way of still going back to that four-six precinct, right?
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: That brotherhood, that camaraderie.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be there for each other.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: But when you're in your house by yourself and things suck, you have nobody, you know.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really what I end up trying to do now is, you know, I knew I could present a topic in front of in front of a group, you know, because I was teaching so much.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I took a hard right turn and said, this is the direction I'm gonna go.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then really just start to process some of the things that again, we we all have things, right?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: We we all raised our hand and said, I want to go to the big one, every one of us.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: But what you don't realize is when they say the job is gonna change you, job's gonna change you, kid.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, how?
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Kid, wait, I'm gonna be hard, I'm gonna be tough, I'm gonna be fast, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be all these different things.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, it means that, you know, you you're going to, you know, not be able to be patient with your kids because you need a result right now, you know?
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, like that, that's the kind of things I just kind of took from my own experiences what the clinician said, how did that manifest in me?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: And guys, I'm not telling you what to do.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm telling you what I recognized in me.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of us kind of recognize that.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: So the reality is, Vic, that as dangerous as law enforcement is, and people don't realize this, as dangerous as law enforcement is, there's more of a likelihood of somebody taking their life at home than they are getting killed in a line of duty.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: When I heard that statistic, I said, no way, prove it to me.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had to go through and prove it.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I was, my mind was blown, you know, because again, like, you know, we we want to be at the big woman.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: We we want to be there.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: We can compartmentalize all sorts of different things, and everybody's got war stories.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't tell war stories, you know, when I'm on stage.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, listen, guys, we all we all got the t-shirt.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whether you're in Miami, Florida, Chicago, LA, or the little, you know, East Cup Cakelong Island.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the job, they say the job's gonna change you.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_01: I wish they told me how, right?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's look out for what those kind of, you know, those flags are to make the career, the profession better.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I think this generation now, Vic, has a more difficult time with things that go on because the political climate's always swinging.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: And no politician ever gets elected for attacking or defunding the fire department, right?
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_01: The police are the target, okay?
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and then body cameras now I think make the job more difficult.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_01: And here's an example.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you and I, you know, after you know, coming out of a DOA scene or something that's really screwed up, we could have that dark humor.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: What is that dark humor?
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: That dark humor is decompressing.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: They can't even do that now, you know.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, you we would go to choir practice or church practice, you know, after a four to twelve, you know, like that's that doesn't happen now.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good thing, right?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good thing that that doesn't happen anymore.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but they don't they don't get the chance to decompress like I did in the parking lot of the four-six priests back in 1998, you know.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and and I think a lot of the our generation, you're I would consider my you know, my generation, your generation, you know, pretty, pretty close in uh career span.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in the 60s and 70s it was unheard of, right?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: Papa, nobody was ever calling Papa, you know, in our generation, no way.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: Our generation has started to embrace it more.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this newer generation is more aware of it from an earlier date.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a good thing.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I think they deal with other challenges now, and and you know, hopefully they find a way to, you know, decompress.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we we, you know, the I know one of them didn't make the newspaper, but one of the guys from the harbor unit, you know, he he killed himself three months ago, a guy I worked with who's retired.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know, who knows, you know?
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had another one, uh, you know, it was a rookie.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think a rookie just killed himself within the last 30 days, NYPD.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, you NYPD, right?
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is an epidemic, a pandemic that you and I swore I'm gonna be there for your brother.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'll take a I'll take a bullet for you, you know?
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: But how do we help this person when they don't know how or don't want to ask for help?
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so I've become I've become very, very passionate about that.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that leads us to your book, Walking Among NYPD heroes.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_00: What was the hardest part of writing it?
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_01: Let me see if I can if I can go through it without there's a chapter in there, and I won't give you the specific chapter, right?
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't want to call it personnel, but uh because I don't remember if I wrote that that anecdote in the book, but he was one of the first people I interviewed, um, and he was involved in uh in a shooting.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh he said to me, he starts crying during the interview, and I wasn't in the mental health space at the time.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is probably five, seven years ago, and I turned the recorder off and I said, What's going on, man?
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so you know, when when when he kind of ended up going through the story, and at that time, the department really did not have what I will, it was not of a robust support system as it is today.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think the system's gotten more robust, right?
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: Still a long way to go, you know.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_01: But back in his incident, it was not as robust, I'll say.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: And he said to me, it was the first time I'm ever talking about it.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, nobody's ever asked me.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: Never I never had to never had to talk about it before.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of, I'll never forget it.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: We know we were in a restaurant downtown and uh when I was interviewing him, and then became aware of that, and then would sometimes would see that pattern over with some of the other incidents that are in the book.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: And again, the book is I'm one chapter of the book, right?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: My helicopter incident, I went to Metal Day.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was very fortunate, you know, but the other chapters of the book are about people that I worked with and their story that they went to Metal Day, you know, and that it's a short story about, you know, what their incident was.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I would see that parallel and sometimes not.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess it's really about how people processed it.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I wrote it about, you know, another one chapter in there, John O'Hara was, you know, he was the eight my aviation boss, and you know, how how his incident affected his family, right?
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it played a lot into what I do now.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: When I started writing it, I had no idea, you know, but then I kind of started to circle back with some of the people that had some of these big incidents, you know.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was fortunate, right?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like my incident, you know, again, Hurricane Sandy, the helicopter Ambrose Channel.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: We had minutes to think about it on our way out there, right?
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like I could develop a plan.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like just some dope pulled a gun on you and started shooting, right?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's on.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had time, you know.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: So like my incident's a little bit different.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: But the other ones that are in there, they kind of happen so quickly.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, they just they flip that on switch, you know, and again, that on switch for us is how it manifests into our personal life, even when we're retired, right?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: Go back to that first story where I said that kid pulled the fake gun on us.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_01: Thank God it was fake, or else we'd be two dead cops in the car, you know, it clicked hands down clearly.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then I said that'll never happen again, right?
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, it just pops up so quickly.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then how that affected them, how it affected their family, because we talked about family, it's the most important thing in the world to you.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: Family, family, family, family.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but then we'll come home and you know, the the for me, the monster can come out and still can come out, you know.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I know the guys and gals that are listening, they know what I'm talking about, right?
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: That monster in you comes out because I have to get compliance.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_01: If I don't get compliance at work, what's the alternative, right?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: You go to jail, you know, you you go hands-on, whatever.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now, obviously, I'm not gonna go hands-on with my kids at home, but I have to get compliance.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's beat into me, you know.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: So recognizing that pattern, you know, uh it all kind of really started to come out as I got three quarters of the way through the book about some of those things, you know.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but that's what I would say, like how even some of those incidents affected the families, you know, again, uh, and I I'll say it very quickly, but my wife ended up writing a book.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was just gonna ask you about that.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Speaking of family, your wife got the writing bug.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Just again, like it was John O'Hara's wife, who I don't know Bernadette, you know, but but in his incident, his wife was trying to keep it normal at home, you know.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: And when I would come home and I would leave, you know, I would leave for these crazy things.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: And again, I was fortunate, right?
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I got the limelight more than I ever should have, you know, just by being in the unit that I was in.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, how that, you know, my wife with, you know, any wife, any spouse, any loved one really, right?
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: How does that manifest in them where they've got to become resilient, they've got to become, you know, they've got to be able to be, you know, do things on their own, independent, you know?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: So she ended up writing a book, you know, literally it just came out a week ago from her perspective, because as as her and I started to talk about these things, you know, I've got my viewpoint of why I do something.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: She's got a viewpoint of why she did something.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: We never connected the two, you know.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, law enforcement's a it's a listen, I would I do it all over again?
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_01: I would do it all over again.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it comes with its challenges, like any profession.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, ours is, you know, it's uh it's a stressful job.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the the stress stays with you for a long period of time, off duty, retired.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm I'm always looking for something.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I just can't just can't turn it off.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: George, what's the name of your book and your wife's book, and where can our listeners pick up a copy?
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: So right now, um, you could pick up a copy on my website, georgeslickler.com, her book on AudraSlickler.com.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh hopefully by September, I know this will come out, but they'll be on Amazon.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: My book is called Walking Among NYPD Heroes, and her book is called Married to the Badge.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's kind of written from her vantage point, and there's a little bit of like worksheets and stuff like there that a spouse or loved one would kind of go through, you know, to help them process, you know, like she was a very, very proud police wife.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I gotta say that my wife was very, very a very proud police wife and super, super supportive, right?
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: I could not have accomplished the things I did without her.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: But she had a very clear, distinct point of view that I had no idea was going on for 20 years.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: George, where can all this get a hold of you for speaking engagements?
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: Again, through my website, uh georgecler.com, S-I-C-H-L-E-R.com.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'll be speaking at the end of this month at TacOps in Nashville.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're in Nashville, come out and see see that see that uh class.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: The in DC, I'll be at TACOps in DC, New York women in law enforcement, I think, in October.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a couple of spots that you'll actually can catch me where I'll where I'll be.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, if somebody's having an event, you know, give me a call, I'd love to speak.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: Do it up, doing a public safety diver one down in Norfolk, actually too.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think I think the ones in September.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I've got a bunch of ones that are coming up.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you're having your own event, sure, I'd love to come and uh come talk.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: George Siegler, thank you so much for spending your time with us today.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, this was awesome.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: And as always, I'd like to thank everyone for tuning in, especially my listeners in Winston, Connecticut, Bethel Springs, Tennessee, Cohost New York, and Indianapolis, Indiana.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: If you worked in law enforcement or had an interesting criminal background, please drop me a note on Twitter or Instagram at VicFerrari50 if you want to be a guest.
• 59:02
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• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you're really feeling strong, hit the hype button on your mobile app.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you enjoy the content, check out my Amazon author page.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: Just type in my name, Vic, Ferrari Like the Call, where you can preview all my NYPD books for free.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again, everyone, and I'll see you next week.