Latest / The Dead Pair Podcast / 271, Wendell Cherry: The Self-Aware Shooter - Part 1

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271, Wendell Cherry: The Self-Aware Shooter - Part 1 · The Dead Pair Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: The Dead Bear Podcast is optimized by overallconfirmations.com.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: It is dead by you.
0:08
SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Dead Bear Podcast.
0:10
SPEAKER_04: Coming in hot with everything you want to hear about supporting.
0:16
SPEAKER_04: With your toes, Jason Rambo.
0:22
SPEAKER_07: Like I said, I was just thirsty.
0:25
SPEAKER_04: Often imitated, but never duplicated.
0:28
SPEAKER_04: It's the Dead Bear Podcast.
0:34
SPEAKER_04: It's show time.
0:36
SPEAKER_07: Welcome back, everyone.
0:38
SPEAKER_07: This is part one of a two-part series that I did with Wendell Cherry up at Biddlegan Oak in Georgia.
0:46
SPEAKER_07: I was very, very excited to get this one out to everyone.
0:50
SPEAKER_07: This is going to be, there's a lot of good nuggets in here.
0:52
SPEAKER_07: We do have a tourney talk to get to, so let's do that real quick.
0:55
SPEAKER_04: It's Tourney Talk.
1:00
SPEAKER_04: Brought to you by Scorechaser.
1:03
SPEAKER_07: All right.
1:04
SPEAKER_07: Florida State at Quail Creek, that will be April 8th through the 11th, 2027, is now up.
1:10
SPEAKER_07: Also, Michigan State at Detroit Gun Club, June 25th through the 27th, 2027, is also up on Scorechaser.
1:19
SPEAKER_07: And lastly, the Seafood Blast at MM, which will be held April 22nd through the 26th, 2027, is now open for registration as well.
1:28
SPEAKER_07: So those are three great shoots, uh, two wonderful state shoots, and that MM uh seafood blast that they do every year.
1:34
SPEAKER_07: I know that draws a lot of people out, and I've heard that's a wonderful shoot as well.
1:38
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1:40
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1:41
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1:44
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1:47
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1:50
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1:51
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1:52
SPEAKER_07: It also helps us give a head count for dinners.
1:56
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2:00
SPEAKER_07: Link is right down in the show description, guys.
2:02
SPEAKER_07: Go get you a ticket if you haven't already got one.
2:04
SPEAKER_07: Let's get over to this interview that I was able to do with uh Wendell Cherry and David Radulvich.
2:12
SPEAKER_09: The Deadpool.
2:17
SPEAKER_07: Well, this is awesome, guys.
2:18
SPEAKER_07: Uh, Wendell, thank you for having me, man.
2:21
SPEAKER_07: This is a beautiful piece of property.
2:23
SPEAKER_07: We're here at Red Oak, uh Big Red Oak, excuse me, uh, here in Gay, Georgia.
2:27
SPEAKER_07: And I mean, I just this is the third time I've been here, and every time I come here, I find new things I didn't catch before.
2:34
SPEAKER_05: So thank you guys for coming, and um, yeah, I'm pretty proud uh of this place.
2:39
SPEAKER_05: It's uh it's pretty and uh and we just try to do the best job we can.
2:43
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, for sure.
2:45
SPEAKER_03: So I don't know if you know this, Wendell, but um I think you're the first guest on a shooting podcast to ever have had the uh host and the am I a co-host or a co-guest?
2:59
SPEAKER_07: I don't know what you are right now.
3:00
SPEAKER_07: We're gonna figure that out here.
3:01
SPEAKER_07: My parents don't know what I am either.
3:04
SPEAKER_03: But whatever I am, but uh to have to have uh both of them travel to interview you.
3:11
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
3:12
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
3:13
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, see, it's it's we we I mean between coming to interview Wendell and and Matt teasing me about shooting super sporting with him today, how could I say no?
3:22
SPEAKER_05: I mean, man.
3:23
SPEAKER_05: But well, you know, you know, you survived the rain, and now it's bright and sunny and hot, so so we're back to filming.
3:30
SPEAKER_07: Well, just to uh speed everybody up, so my guests today are Wendell Cherry and David Radulovich, and anybody that has not seen the um the long interview that David did with Wendell, uh David, I think we're gonna try and get that up on my YouTube page so everybody can go check that out and kind of preface that interview to this one.
3:47
SPEAKER_07: This is kind of a little bit of an extension of it, but there was there were some things, Wendell, that I noticed in there.
3:52
SPEAKER_07: You know, I I listened to that conversation you two did together, and something kept jumping out at me.
3:58
SPEAKER_07: Um David, you tend to explain things um for shooting through like attention, physiolog, you know, physiology, um, psychology, uh, and what the body is actually doing.
4:10
SPEAKER_07: Uh, Wendell, you kind of describe a lot of the same things through feel.
4:14
SPEAKER_07: You talked about um the bottoms of your feet, the tension coming through your body, and you know what were your what were your eyes looking at, how present you were and analyzing what happened after the shot.
4:27
SPEAKER_07: Yep.
4:28
SPEAKER_07: And I kept thinking, you two are thinking of the same thing, but using completely different language.
4:34
SPEAKER_07: And I I think the word underneath all of it is self-awareness.
4:38
SPEAKER_07: Now, David and I kind of touched on that a little bit when we did the two podcasts with uh Tracy Wright.
4:44
SPEAKER_07: Is you know, that was something I found for the first time after all these years of shooting and gained success at Ohio State Championship with it.
4:53
SPEAKER_07: So here's what I want to throw out there.
4:56
SPEAKER_07: There's a difference in what a shooter thinks he is doing, what he intended to do, and what actually took place.
5:06
SPEAKER_07: Uh, and those three things don't are aren't always the same.
5:10
SPEAKER_07: So that's where I want to start with this.
5:12
SPEAKER_07: How many shooters, Wendell, actually know what they're doing when they pull the trigger?
5:17
SPEAKER_05: That's a great question.
5:18
SPEAKER_05: And um, I was just saying the other day, and I say this in every session, um taking taking this instruction's fine, right?
5:27
SPEAKER_05: But the thing that's gonna move the ball down the field is the quality and how accurate your analyzation is after the shot.
5:37
SPEAKER_05: Um and and and to answer your question, very few um truly analyze correctly what happened.
5:46
SPEAKER_05: If it I think if if they were analyzing, they wouldn't do what they're doing.
5:50
SPEAKER_05: Right, right.
5:51
SPEAKER_05: Uh yeah, and um and so so that means your presence, um, occupying the conscious mind, your attention control, where your eyes were, um, everything possible that you can monitor as you shoot needs to be monitored.
6:11
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
6:12
SPEAKER_05: Right.
6:12
SPEAKER_05: And without that, I just don't see a way of truly gaining expertise in it.
6:19
SPEAKER_05: Um and so after boom, while boom is still in your ears, the first thing you should think is, where was my eyes?
6:27
SPEAKER_05: And and if you would just start with that simple little thing, most shooters would change the way they shoot.
6:33
SPEAKER_07: So when you're given a lesson and you ask a person what they felt through the shot, how many times are they actually wrong of what they did?
6:43
SPEAKER_05: Most.
6:44
SPEAKER_05: Really?
6:44
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, really.
6:45
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
6:45
SPEAKER_05: It takes a pretty uh accomplished shooter to start to tell me the the correct answers.
6:54
SPEAKER_05: And um and I think that's what I'm best at is to be able to tell you what you just experienced, right?
7:04
SPEAKER_05: And and and then and then when I say it, they go, Yeah, how do you know that?
7:08
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
7:08
SPEAKER_05: Right.
7:09
SPEAKER_05: And um, and I think it's just I think most shooters stop at, well, I killed it or I didn't.
7:16
SPEAKER_05: Right.
7:17
SPEAKER_05: And that's the post shot.
7:18
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
7:18
SPEAKER_05: Well, there's so much more to that.
7:20
SPEAKER_05: And and not only for your training, but this should also be part of your program after each pair, uh, as you compete.
7:29
SPEAKER_05: And and and so there should be a post-shot, a very thorough post shot after every shot in practice, and also it's the same post shot as you compete.
7:39
SPEAKER_05: And I don't see a lot of shooters doing that.
7:42
SPEAKER_07: Well, I'm nowhere near as versed as you are, and I and uh, you know, just a silly thing.
7:46
SPEAKER_07: I used to call it the STS method, which was slow down stupid.
7:49
SPEAKER_07: And that's what that was, is that post-shot analysis, because in the past when I'd missed a target, I'd get mad, I'd throw two shells in and slam the gun, and here we go again.
7:57
SPEAKER_07: It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's hold on a minute here.
7:59
SPEAKER_07: What did you just do?
8:00
SPEAKER_07: That's right.
8:01
SPEAKER_07: And so let me ask you this.
8:04
SPEAKER_07: Um, and uh going back to your students and your coaching, uh how let me think of a better way to frame this.
8:13
SPEAKER_07: Explain this, Wendell, to the people listening.
8:15
SPEAKER_07: What's the difference between being self-aware and being conscious?
8:20
SPEAKER_07: Because I think there is a definitive difference.
8:22
SPEAKER_07: Would you not agree?
8:23
SPEAKER_05: Um Yeah, uh, and and being totally conscious can uh while while in the act, although I I I don't but believe in instinctual shooting, uh I believe all shooting is very conscious.
8:36
SPEAKER_05: Um but um being self-aware is being able to replay um the thought you had, the look you had, the move you had, um all of that is in play.
8:54
SPEAKER_05: Um being conscious is thinking about those things while you're in the act of doing it.
9:00
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
9:01
SPEAKER_05: Right?
9:02
SPEAKER_05: And um, and I'm not sure if that's a great answer or or or or not, but but uh being self-aware to me is is knowing every part um mentally, visually, and technically, uh, and being able to re-replay that accurately um so you can assess it and adjust as need be.
9:23
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
9:24
SPEAKER_07: So David, I want to ask you something, and and there's a reason why I'm framing this up the way I'm not and I want you to answer before Wendell does.
9:31
SPEAKER_07: Um do you think self-awareness belongs during the execution or primarily before and after it?
9:39
SPEAKER_03: Um so do I think that that self-awareness belongs before and after or during?
9:44
SPEAKER_07: Correct.
9:45
SPEAKER_07: Uh during the execution, or do you think it's more prior to making the move or something like post-shot?
9:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can't you can't um like neurologically, you can't exist in a state of physical and well physiological self-awareness and be connected to a bird and feeling it in the way that you need to for a match at the same time.
10:17
SPEAKER_03: That exists on a spectrum, so you can be anywhere from zero and a hundred to a hundred and zero.
10:24
SPEAKER_03: Um, but in a match, you basically want you don't want to be aware of feeling your you like a truly non-conscious shot shot has no physical self-awareness, which is why in practice or a lesson, so many people revert to how they shoot in a tournament, and they don't actually pay attention to feeling their body, because paying attention to feeling your body requires a diversion of attention from the bird, and so if you pull your attention from the bird to feel the body, you're not gonna hit the bird as well because you're more worried about what the body's doing and what yeah, yeah, and so the um it's physical self-awareness.
11:11
SPEAKER_03: Like I look at the word self-awareness and and it has quantifiers, you know, or qualifiers.
11:16
SPEAKER_03: It would be, you know, um, am I visually aware?
11:20
SPEAKER_03: That's gonna be high in the shot.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: Am I physically aware that's gonna be low in the shot?
11:25
SPEAKER_03: Am I emotionally aware?
11:26
SPEAKER_03: That's going to be a reverse exponential in the shot.
11:29
SPEAKER_03: So, like at the time that I call Paul, I'm gonna be very emotionally aware.
11:33
SPEAKER_03: As soon as anything starts happening, it's gonna go to zero.
11:37
SPEAKER_03: And um I would you agree with that, Wendell?
11:40
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, kind.
11:41
SPEAKER_05: I um I think being self-aware, so and and I think you're right in in what you said, you know, if I'm in line to shoot and it's the last station to win a major, yeah, right, you're gonna be nervous.
11:55
SPEAKER_05: Your hands are gonna be shaking.
11:57
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, right.
11:57
SPEAKER_05: And and you need to be aware of what state you're in so you can temper it and and and control it.
12:03
SPEAKER_05: 100%.
12:04
SPEAKER_05: And that's before you ever load the gun.
12:06
SPEAKER_05: Right.
12:07
SPEAKER_05: So, so like one thing that I I do a lot once I'm in contention and I need to straight this last station to win, um, I kind of go back and see where I am psychologically.
12:20
SPEAKER_05: Am I up too much?
12:22
SPEAKER_05: It uh and am I am I starting to shake and is it is it falling apart?
12:27
SPEAKER_05: And then I will use breathing techniques to kind of bring everything back down to a controllable level, right?
12:35
SPEAKER_05: Something that I can survive, right?
12:37
SPEAKER_05: Right.
12:38
SPEAKER_05: Um is that scenario gonna be super calm and and um um and easy?
12:46
SPEAKER_05: No.
12:47
SPEAKER_05: No, no, no, you're gonna be shaking.
12:49
SPEAKER_05: You you're you're gonna it's gonna be all you can do to survive it, but I've done it enough to to where I know is it survivable or do I need to temper more?
13:00
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
13:00
SPEAKER_05: And and then as you're as you're calling for that pair, you you really have to think about seeing the bird at that point because um every day that we spend in our lives, we see and soft focus.
13:14
SPEAKER_05: So we see big picture stuff.
13:15
SPEAKER_05: And you know, I see the lake, I see, I see the the pine trees, the the green grass.
13:20
SPEAKER_05: And that's all controlled by the back of the brain, and I don't know what part that's called.
13:24
SPEAKER_05: Right.
13:25
SPEAKER_05: But to to see small and finite, like you need in target shooting, is frontal lobe activity.
13:30
SPEAKER_05: And for you to shift from the back of the brain to the frontal lobe, you have you have to think it.
13:37
unknown: Okay.
13:37
SPEAKER_05: Uh right.
13:38
SPEAKER_05: So it has to be a conscious thought to see.
13:41
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
13:41
SPEAKER_05: Otherwise, the probability is very low that you will.
13:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:45
SPEAKER_05: Right?
13:45
SPEAKER_05: Right.
13:46
SPEAKER_05: And then after the shot, uh, let's say you kill the pair, and and and and I do this every pair.
13:53
SPEAKER_05: I um so um I kill the pair, but the tension was too high in the second shot, and I know my eyes were a little bit up in the gap, or the shot just didn't feel clean, it felt like I'm trying to clutch it.
14:06
SPEAKER_05: Well, I'm gonna temper that before I call for the next pair.
14:10
SPEAKER_05: Right?
14:10
SPEAKER_05: So I think that's a better answer to your question.
14:13
SPEAKER_05: It is it's very aware, it's very conscious.
14:17
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
14:17
SPEAKER_05: Uh at all times.
14:19
SPEAKER_05: So, so I'm very aware um of where I'm at psychologically going into the station.
14:26
SPEAKER_05: Uh, I cue the bird very consciously, right?
14:29
SPEAKER_05: And then I then I analyze the shot so I can correct through throughout that station.
14:36
SPEAKER_05: Right.
14:37
SPEAKER_05: So there's a lot of work going on, and it's way more detailed than I killed it or I didn't.
14:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:43
SPEAKER_03: Right.
14:44
SPEAKER_03: Um, so one thing that would would have to be important to to clarify would be like um for one thing that really separates really good shooters from not really good shooters is their ability to what like Wendell would use the word temper.
15:01
SPEAKER_03: I would use the word I like Wendell's word better, uh, but I would like just use the word control or manipulate.
15:08
SPEAKER_03: Um but a a really experienced athlete in this game is going to possess the ability to temper or manipulate or control their where their self-awareness is located, like what it's pointed at, what what do you want to pay attention to, and they're going to be able to do it um during the time when they need to the most, and they'll be able to shut it off during the times when they need to the most.
15:34
SPEAKER_03: The a less experienced shooter is actually the inverse of that.
15:39
SPEAKER_03: So, like, in the reason why uh like someone like Wendell or myself or any of our peers, like if we were to go out to practice, um, we can get a lot of work done in a lot less shells than most people because we are able to in practice manipulate or temper that awareness, have it happen during the shot.
16:01
SPEAKER_03: So the whole shot is completely felt and and defined in every moving part of the body, everything that the eyes are seeing, everything, every emotion that the that the mind is feeling and experiencing um during the whole shot.
16:13
SPEAKER_03: And then after the shot, we can turn the lens around and analyze that and and think about oh, I want to change this little thing on the next one.
16:20
SPEAKER_03: Um a less experienced shooter is not gonna be able to do that because all of their attention is just going to be on the bird and the result of the bird during practice.
16:30
SPEAKER_03: Now, in a match that flips, the a less experienced shooter is gonna be all of their attention is gonna be on the gap or their hands moving or they're like they're going to feel so much of the body too much in the wrong way, um, that they're not gonna turn on, be able to just connect with the synchronized movement of autopilot.
16:52
SPEAKER_03: Would you agree with that, Wendell?
16:53
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you you you know too.
16:54
SPEAKER_05: I would I would think that for um most shooters, as they shoot, they think I'm just gonna go to uh autopilot.
17:05
SPEAKER_05: And and that's not what I think the best in the world do.
17:08
SPEAKER_05: I think after every shot there are adjustments.
17:12
SPEAKER_10: Yeah, yeah.
17:13
SPEAKER_05: Right?
17:14
SPEAKER_05: Um and what whether that's tension control, eye speed, um, trust, uh all those components, there's constant minute adjustments after everything.
17:27
SPEAKER_07: Everything absolutely and so that's where I have, and you tell me if I'm right or wrong, please.
17:34
SPEAKER_07: Um that's where I have a problem with this being in the zone that people talk about because a lot of people think being in the zone is just being able to go out there, shoot subconsciously.
17:45
SPEAKER_07: I wasn't even trying, the gun just was in the right spot, and I was grenading targets.
17:49
SPEAKER_07: There is a level of self-awareness there where that isn't happening.
17:53
SPEAKER_05: That's right.
17:53
SPEAKER_07: So to be in the zone and think you're just fully shooting subconscious, I think is wrong.
17:58
SPEAKER_07: I think that's a wrong description.
18:00
SPEAKER_07: Would you not agree?
18:01
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I don't know if I've ever been in the zone.
18:03
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm not even sure there is a zone.
18:05
SPEAKER_07: I've had I've had days when it felt easier.
18:07
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
18:07
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
18:08
SPEAKER_07: But that doesn't mean that you're not.
18:10
SPEAKER_07: I I think it was a heightened level of self-awareness on those days, and it made it easy, seem easier.
18:17
SPEAKER_05: I I think I think so much of what people uh call the zone is just a great head space that you're in, right?
18:24
SPEAKER_05: Um a great attitude for the day.
18:27
SPEAKER_05: Um and and so your attitude is correct and stuff like that.
18:32
SPEAKER_05: But do I think there's a magical zone?
18:33
SPEAKER_05: No, I don't think so.
18:35
SPEAKER_07: No, I don't think so either.
18:35
SPEAKER_07: I think that's a good one.
18:36
SPEAKER_05: I've never experienced it, I've never seen it.
18:38
SPEAKER_07: I think that's snake oil.
18:39
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
18:41
SPEAKER_07: Um and and I think, and and not I'm just real quick, that's what made my win on Sunday bittersweet because every single movement, every single bit of self-awareness was a struggle.
18:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:54
SPEAKER_07: Everything.
18:55
SPEAKER_07: And the fact that I was able to pull out a win was that would I mean nothing at the level you two do, and and please don't think that.
19:02
SPEAKER_07: And I'm not bragging about myself.
19:04
SPEAKER_07: I'm just saying for me to accomplish that was a big victory for me because it was such a struggle.
19:10
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
19:11
SPEAKER_05: And I, you know, I I would have to say I don't know if I've ever won a match easy.
19:16
SPEAKER_05: And I I've shot a couple of uh 200 straights.
19:19
SPEAKER_05: Uh shot at the RC Cup, I shot 199 there, and that's some of the hardest stuff I've ever done.
19:25
SPEAKER_08: Really?
19:25
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
19:26
SPEAKER_05: I mean I mean punishing um almost painful.
19:31
SPEAKER_08: Wow.
19:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, completely dip depleting.
19:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:34
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
19:35
SPEAKER_03: Where I recognize the most amount of work is everything around the shot, all the time around the shot.
19:42
SPEAKER_03: Like forcing myself to pay attention and and collect data on my body um 24-7.
19:52
SPEAKER_05: But then being able to stop the chatter as well.
19:54
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, during it.
19:55
SPEAKER_03: That's what I meant about like a really good shooter.
19:57
SPEAKER_03: Like it you have to be able there are times where you have to be able to control it in both ways, like turn it up and then also go into the negatives and shut it off.
20:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:07
SPEAKER_08: Yep.
20:07
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
20:08
SPEAKER_07: Well, I've got a question written written down here, Wendell, and I I wanted to save this for later, but I I really want to know your answer so bad that I'm gonna ask this now.
20:15
SPEAKER_07: Um, you said something that really jumped out to me uh in the video that you and David did.
20:21
SPEAKER_07: You said, and I quote, everything is about you.
20:25
SPEAKER_07: What exactly did you mean by that?
20:28
SPEAKER_03: Um did he did he say you talking about me or about him?
20:32
SPEAKER_07: He's describing, he said every it's all about you.
20:35
SPEAKER_07: Oh talking about a shooter, you know.
20:38
SPEAKER_05: Well um, I'm not sure what I meant by that.
20:42
SPEAKER_05: I'm not even sure if I was sober at that time.
20:48
SPEAKER_03: All right.
20:48
SPEAKER_03: Um what was the context around the conversation?
20:52
SPEAKER_03: You remember, Jason?
20:53
SPEAKER_03: Well it was a three and a half hour conversation.
20:56
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
20:57
SPEAKER_07: Um he he specifically moved his analysis away from the target.
21:04
SPEAKER_07: Oh, okay.
21:05
SPEAKER_07: And went more towards the feet, the tension, the presence, the muscle, and the visual.
21:09
SPEAKER_07: And you said that's when you said it's all about you.
21:12
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it is.
21:13
SPEAKER_05: And and you uh is what you're supposed to be studying.
21:17
SPEAKER_05: It's not the target, right?
21:20
SPEAKER_05: The target has nothing to do with this.
21:21
SPEAKER_05: I think we I think we overcomplicate targets and make way too much out of it.
21:26
SPEAKER_05: And the thing that we have to practice is us, and the only way you can do that is to analyze correctly and and and know what the standard is and uh and then adhere to that.
21:39
SPEAKER_05: Um uh, but it does.
21:41
SPEAKER_05: It it it has to be completely about you, not the target, not the match.
21:45
SPEAKER_05: Um, and let's say you're failing out there, let's say you're gonna lose today.
21:49
SPEAKER_05: How you do that's very important.
21:51
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
21:52
SPEAKER_05: Right?
21:52
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
21:53
SPEAKER_05: Right.
21:53
SPEAKER_05: You can't just chunk it because now you've killed the next match or so.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:58
SPEAKER_05: Uh uh afterwards.
21:59
SPEAKER_05: So So um so being able to think the right things at the right time is very important, but it uh has to be all about you.
22:07
SPEAKER_05: Uh and by that, um um I don't mean um ego thing.
22:13
SPEAKER_05: It's just your analyz has to be on you, not the target, not the match, not the result, right?
22:20
SPEAKER_05: Right?
22:20
SPEAKER_05: It has to be you and your thoughts and your techniques.
22:24
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
22:24
SPEAKER_07: Well, a lot of people listening to this or watching this are probably gonna ask this question because I know as I've sat and thought about this on the drive up here, I I asked it to myself is if I break the target, can I still be wrong?
22:39
SPEAKER_07: Can I still have Absolutely?
22:41
SPEAKER_07: You know what I mean?
22:42
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, well that's that's why it shouldn't be about the target because you can break the target and and it'd actually be a bad shot.
22:50
SPEAKER_05: Like just because you broke it doesn't mean you moved correctly, doesn't mean you saw it, doesn't mean you did anything correctly, right?
22:56
SPEAKER_05: Other than you just happen to break it.
22:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you should see some of my shots.
22:59
SPEAKER_03: I can exemplify that too well.
23:02
SPEAKER_07: You know, that that's funny you say that, David, because what raised that question to me was in the in the interview that you guys did, you were smoking targets, and it was like, wait, that's still wrong.
23:13
SPEAKER_07: You know what I mean?
23:14
SPEAKER_07: So that's where that basis came from was to ask that because it's like how how many times and anybody listening to this that's in the the upper echelon or starting to get in the upper echelon of the game, you know what I'm talking about, like this proper form, proper posture, and you see a shooter out there with totally wrong posture, the gun doesn't fit, and they're just out there just smoking targets.
23:34
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
23:35
SPEAKER_07: Well, that's only going to carry you so far, I'd be like, that's right.
23:38
SPEAKER_05: That's right.
23:39
SPEAKER_05: And you know, the thing about shooting too, it's uh I mean it's super nice to go win a championship and and you know, there's no better feeling than some than you turning around and somebody said you you you just won the US Open, right?
23:51
SPEAKER_05: But shooting is really a a body of work.
23:55
SPEAKER_05: It it it's it's it's it's proven over being consistent over a long period of time, right?
24:03
SPEAKER_05: And that's really uh what we're judged by.
24:07
SPEAKER_05: And um and so um being very consistent day in, day out, um, is the goal.
24:15
SPEAKER_07: Of all your students, and this is a question for both of you, um, I want to hear from Wendell first.
24:21
SPEAKER_07: Why is it, and I've noticed this, and I'm not a coach, but just standing back and observing, I've noticed this a lot.
24:29
SPEAKER_07: Why is it the shooter can tell you exactly where their gun was, but they can't tell you what their body did?
24:35
SPEAKER_05: Um Well, if you if you know where the gun is that much and not much else, well then that's probably what you're looking at.
24:44
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
24:44
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
24:45
SPEAKER_05: Um but I just think in general, shooters don't analyze their movement, their thoughts, their vision, their attention control, their presence, all all all those vital things that uh assist you to see the target.
25:00
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
25:00
SPEAKER_05: Right.
25:01
SPEAKER_05: And um it kind of goes back to um, well, I hit it or I didn't.
25:05
SPEAKER_05: Right.
25:06
SPEAKER_05: Right, and that's about as far as it goes.
25:08
SPEAKER_05: Um there again, it's just not being aware enough of uh of you.
25:15
unknown: Yeah.
25:15
SPEAKER_05: Right.
25:16
SPEAKER_05: Um I I um I shot some yesterday and I and and I broke all the targets.
25:23
SPEAKER_05: I never dropped a target, but was those moves good?
25:25
SPEAKER_05: No, they're ratty.
25:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can I talked to Wendell on the phone on the way up here.
25:31
SPEAKER_05: And and uh And like I straighted uh uh 150 shots straight.
25:38
SPEAKER_03: So think about what he just said.
25:40
SPEAKER_03: He's he hit all the birds, right?
25:42
SPEAKER_03: He called me and he and he said exact words were you ever haven't practice so bad that what did you how did you you ever have a practice so bad you'd think that that like you just can't believe it.
25:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah he was talking about that practice where he never missed.
25:56
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
25:56
SPEAKER_05: So that like I can start time was late, tension was too high in the second birds.
26:02
SPEAKER_05: I can I can tell you everything that was wrong with it, and I am I re ready to go to a match?
26:08
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely not, yeah.
26:09
SPEAKER_05: And I already know what my next practice sessions are, uh the next time I go shoot, what what will be those things that kind of keeps me a wait, wait, wake at night.
26:19
SPEAKER_05: And and I know I'm in trouble a little bit, right?
26:22
SPEAKER_05: Right, uh, but I shot the match straight or or or or the practice session straight.
26:28
SPEAKER_05: Uh, but there was nothing good about it.
26:31
SPEAKER_03: The reason why that's important is because that's the difference between that like what Wendell is talking about there is what what people I'm sure 90% of the people that are listening to this will be able to rate relate to the fact that that their tournament scores are not as good as their practice scores.
26:50
SPEAKER_03: And the reason is because when once that environment changes and you put yourself into the tournament environment, and then you lose and the the psychology changes of the shooter, and then what they're what they're uncontrollably forced to pay attention to because they don't they can't control that awareness, what Wendell would call the uh like the tempering or the or the many uh you know when once that goes and they lose control of that in a tournament match, that lack of connectedness with the bird visually is because of the extra pressure, is no longer driving the body to where bad mechanics don't matter anymore.
27:32
SPEAKER_03: It because in a tournament in practice when nothing's on the line, you it's so much easier to access that fluidity in your movement for most people, right?
27:42
SPEAKER_07: Which is what he related to through his practice.
27:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and if if you're some if you're as good as like Wendell, you're you can shoot it doesn't matter what the body's doing.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: You can if you just look at the bird, and I mean, I remember when I was a little kid, Wendell gave me a practice drill to um shoot overhead towers backwards, and um like you you don't have to do, I mean, I could shoot a bird one-handed and hit it at 80 yards.
28:09
SPEAKER_03: Is that the right mechanics?
28:11
SPEAKER_03: No.
28:11
SPEAKER_03: Why did I hit it?
28:12
SPEAKER_03: I was looking at it and I trusted where my body put the gun.
28:15
SPEAKER_03: So, but will I be able to do that in a match with a world title on the line?
28:19
SPEAKER_03: Probably not.
28:20
SPEAKER_03: So if I'm not caring about movement or me in practice, then I'm not changing how I'm moving at all.
28:28
SPEAKER_03: The only thing I'm doing is practicing looking at the bird and letting it happen or being in the zone.
28:35
SPEAKER_03: And so then if I go into a match and I think that that's going to happen again, it's not going to happen again.
28:40
SPEAKER_03: The only thing that actually happens is my score is now directly correlated to how good my moves are.
28:44
SPEAKER_03: And if they're horrible, so is the score.
28:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:47
SPEAKER_07: Um, can someone again, you're not allowed to say anything, David?
28:55
SPEAKER_07: No names mentioned.
28:56
SPEAKER_07: Um, can someone become an excellent shooter without understanding their own body mechanics?
29:03
SPEAKER_07: Can you know, not have that level of self-aware?
29:05
SPEAKER_07: Can they get to a high level and be um a great shooter without having that?
29:13
SPEAKER_05: There is a few people that's done that, yeah.
29:15
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
29:16
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
29:17
SPEAKER_05: Uh there's exceptions to uh every rule, but let's say that shooter is a great shooter.
29:25
SPEAKER_05: He could even have been greater if um his analyzation would what what would have been better and just done a more thorough job at that, right?
29:35
SPEAKER_05: Uh but yes, um you don't have to be a great technician to to to win win a huge shoot.
29:43
SPEAKER_05: Right.
29:43
SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm I mean we've all seen it.
29:45
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, right.
29:45
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
29:46
SPEAKER_07: So when let me ask you this then, let me feed off of that a little bit.
29:50
SPEAKER_07: When you're given a lesson, I know you well enough just in what you've said in podcast, you're not watching the gun.
29:59
SPEAKER_07: What are you looking at in that person?
30:01
SPEAKER_07: Because you can't you can't see tension or you can't you can't see what they're feeling.
30:06
SPEAKER_05: You can I can see tension.
30:08
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
30:08
SPEAKER_05: Um, I'm watching their mindset.
30:13
SPEAKER_05: Um, I'm watching what they're thinking.
30:15
SPEAKER_05: I know that sounds crazy.
30:16
SPEAKER_05: How do you watch a thought, but you can.
30:19
SPEAKER_05: Um, how they react to that, what what their mechanics are, and and I'm just um I if if I'm teaching somebody, I'm I'm teaching two or three years ahead of where where we are at that moment.
30:33
SPEAKER_05: So I I tried to just uh observe everything posture, technique, tension, control, presence, uh, and that means the thoughts that you're thinking.
30:43
SPEAKER_05: Um and and I I know what the standard is to be able to win a what world championship, and that's what we're shooting for.
30:53
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
30:53
SPEAKER_05: Um, right.
30:54
SPEAKER_05: And um, so when when when I start training somebody, it's with that goal that's in mind, and and I just take every part that needs improvement, um, and you you just start shaping that to where it's all in line with everything else.
31:12
SPEAKER_07: So are you, with that being said, are you coaching the move?
31:16
SPEAKER_07: Are you coaching the person that's making the move?
31:20
SPEAKER_05: I'm coaching the person that's making the move, and I'm I'm always ahead of you.
31:24
SPEAKER_05: And I I understand what that looks like.
31:28
SPEAKER_05: That's like when Tom won the world.
31:30
SPEAKER_05: I I called everybody uh two or three weeks before he won it, I go, Tom's gonna win the world championship.
31:36
SPEAKER_05: And they would say, Todd, and I go, No, not Todd.
31:39
SPEAKER_05: I I said it's gonna be Tom, e even though Todd's been shooting great.
31:44
SPEAKER_05: And I said, uh Tom is gonna win win the world championship.
31:48
SPEAKER_05: So he does.
31:49
SPEAKER_05: And they called me back, said, How did you know that?
31:52
SPEAKER_05: And it's just I watched him shoot the match here, and his moves were the best I'd ever seen him.
32:00
SPEAKER_05: But more importantly than that, nothing bothered Tom.
32:05
SPEAKER_05: And that's what I was paying a lot of attention to.
32:07
SPEAKER_05: A lot of times when I'm studying you, it's not always your shooting.
32:11
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
32:12
SPEAKER_05: Right?
32:12
SPEAKER_05: Uh there's more to it.
32:14
SPEAKER_05: And being able to come to um construct somebody's thought pattern, um, you have to see the whole picture.
32:23
SPEAKER_05: And and the thing that stood out to me the most about Tom was he shows up here 20 minutes time to shoot.
32:29
SPEAKER_05: First he's coming, then he's not coming, then he's coming, then he's not coming.
32:32
SPEAKER_05: I go, look, Tom, I said your boss is gonna be here.
32:35
SPEAKER_05: You're the newest guy on the roster.
32:36
SPEAKER_05: Probably need to get here.
32:38
SPEAKER_05: So he shows up and he and I have to pick him up at his truck.
32:43
SPEAKER_05: Uh, he warms up on my card.
32:46
SPEAKER_05: We don't even get signed in, right?
32:49
SPEAKER_05: And I take him out and he shoots the first three, and I watch him shoot it, he shoots 74 out of 75.
32:54
SPEAKER_05: Just great composure, great moves.
32:57
SPEAKER_05: Nothing bothered him.
32:59
SPEAKER_05: Um second David was the same way.
33:03
SPEAKER_05: Um the last day going in, uh, they changed his rotation on his squad, which was not to his gain and would have bothered most people, had no effect on him.
33:17
SPEAKER_05: He ran he runs out of shells that he normally shoots, so he gets some shells out of the clubhouse.
33:22
SPEAKER_05: He's taking those out to shoot or to load up, and the box bust is open.
33:27
SPEAKER_05: All his shells fall out on the floor, no problem, doesn't bother him at all.
33:30
SPEAKER_05: And he's late, right?
33:32
SPEAKER_05: He starts trying to pick this up, and my my wife said, No, we'll have a new flat.
33:37
SPEAKER_05: Here you go.
33:37
SPEAKER_05: So he has to change shells.
33:39
SPEAKER_05: Uh, and that and that was um to actually win with, right?
33:44
SPEAKER_05: And and um made no difference.
33:48
SPEAKER_05: And um, and then he wins the shoot, and then he says, Okay, well, thanks.
33:52
SPEAKER_05: Uh uh, I'll see y'all later.
33:54
SPEAKER_05: And he gets in his truck and drives home.
33:56
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
33:56
SPEAKER_05: Right?
33:57
SPEAKER_05: Uh, same thing at the world when he won there.
33:59
SPEAKER_05: There was no holding the gun up in the air, and I'm the greatest, and all this stuff.
34:03
SPEAKER_05: He just turned around, shook everybody's hand, said uh, thanks, and that was it.
34:08
SPEAKER_05: Right.
34:08
SPEAKER_05: Uh he's just a class act.
34:10
SPEAKER_05: I mean, especially for his age, he's he's he's just a class act all the way around.
34:14
SPEAKER_07: So, um, first of all, congratulations on that.
34:16
SPEAKER_07: Another one of your students.
34:18
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, another, I mean, you your resume is getting long.
34:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is.
34:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, you don't want me to say it out loud, it'll take 20 minutes.
34:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, except for five.
34:27
SPEAKER_07: Uh but so with that being said, uh, your level of attention to your students like that, you can tell on setup if they're gonna miss that target.
34:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
34:38
SPEAKER_07: Like you can tell by everything from posture, yeah, where their heads at, where they're looking, where the guns point.
34:44
SPEAKER_07: Like, you there's so many factors in it.
34:46
SPEAKER_07: You're like, you how many, how many times do you stop a student?
34:49
SPEAKER_07: Like, hey, hold on.
34:50
SPEAKER_05: Well, you're just the typical first lesson, I'll have you shoot one shot, and then you shoot the second shot, and by the second shot I know everything.
34:58
SPEAKER_05: It takes me two shots.
35:00
SPEAKER_05: And and I have a standard that I want to see, and I know what it looks like, and I know how to build it.
35:05
SPEAKER_05: And um, and I'll I'll just stop after the second shot, and I go, we're gonna have to change this, this, and this, or change everything.
35:11
SPEAKER_05: I said that won't be competitive.
35:13
SPEAKER_05: And there's a certain uh physics that uh rules uh uh of that that you have to follow, right?
35:21
SPEAKER_05: And it's not personal preference of it, but there's certain rules that have to be followed, and I believe if you're too far off those, um you're just spinning your wheels.
35:31
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
35:32
SPEAKER_05: And now science is starting to kind of prove everything I've been saying for 30 years.
35:38
SPEAKER_07: So, David, I want to I want to ask you something in regards to all this.
35:41
SPEAKER_07: Um, because here we go with the language thing, right?
35:44
SPEAKER_07: Like you two are two P's in the pot.
35:46
SPEAKER_07: I mean, you're in a younger version of him.
35:47
SPEAKER_07: But again, the language you say things different than what he does, and vice versa.
35:54
SPEAKER_07: When did you realize as you were coming up under Wendell that he was teaching you self-awareness without using the language of self-awareness?
36:02
SPEAKER_07: When did you realize, like I know you started what eight years old, right?
36:06
SPEAKER_07: With Wendell.
36:07
SPEAKER_05: He he he was nine.
36:08
SPEAKER_05: Nine, yeah.
36:08
SPEAKER_07: Nine.
36:09
SPEAKER_07: So when did it hit you that it's like he's not teaching me to move the gun?
36:14
SPEAKER_07: Like, when did it hit you?
36:16
SPEAKER_07: It was all about what you're doing.
36:18
SPEAKER_03: Probably like the first thing you said to me in the first lesson.
36:22
SPEAKER_07: Really?
36:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
36:23
SPEAKER_03: We were standing on a skeet field in Nashville at Nashville Gun Club, and um he set me up.
36:32
SPEAKER_03: I was standing in the grass, I think he walked me up or something, and um it was all about like the very first thing was uh, you know, like a lot of people talk about the difference between the backhand and the front hand in a low gun mount, right?
36:45
SPEAKER_03: Right, but they don't do so from the same uh perspective or the same filter where it's gonna be like, you know, you'll hear a bunch of people say the um well, you'll hear some people say the backhand drives the shot, you'll hear other people say the front hand drives the shot.
37:01
SPEAKER_03: With Wendell, you'll hear his interpretation of that, but the but the thing that's more important is what like I remember him telling me to pay attention to the the balance in but I would say the distribution of balance between my hands for the whole time I'm mounting the gun.
37:20
SPEAKER_03: And to and to feel and to notice and to pay attention to does that change or does it not, as I'm mounting the gun for for the first shot.
37:28
SPEAKER_03: And uh he didn't tell me what I needed to feel, he just told me to pay attention to it, and then and then he asked me what I felt.
37:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and that's how our lessons the ones that I remember, it was always a lot like that.
37:42
SPEAKER_03: It would it would be you know, there'd be times where I was hardheaded, and uh, which is a lot of times.
37:48
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, but I'm gonna say what yeah, that was most of the time.
37:51
SPEAKER_07: I'm just saying, you can probably tell me the times you weren't more than a lot easier, but that'd be a really short podcast.
37:58
SPEAKER_03: But um, it was always a lot about like what you're paying attention to, and then a feet and a discussion and a feedback loop of you know, of him verifying whether or not what I felt was right because the reality of it is as the coach in that position, you're going to have if you have the skill set to be able to do that, you know, like Wendell at the time could feel, I'm gonna use that word on purpose, feel what I was doing better than I could feel what I was doing.
38:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so it's important to be able to, as a coach, validate, verify, or correct what the student's assessment of what they felt was in that shot because they're using you as calibration to learn that skill on themselves.
38:45
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, if you if that if we don't do that, then you can't go home and practice.
38:49
SPEAKER_03: Right.
38:50
SPEAKER_05: Because I would uh yeah, so how would you practice?
38:52
SPEAKER_03: Right.
38:53
SPEAKER_05: And the other thing that I did with David, especially, uh, is it's not just technique.
39:00
SPEAKER_05: I I tried to condition their mind to believe they can be a champion.
39:06
SPEAKER_05: Like he still has an old white hat of mine that I wrote on to the future US Open Champion.
39:14
SPEAKER_05: He still has it.
39:15
SPEAKER_05: And and so I plant seeds like that every time we were together.
39:19
SPEAKER_03: Even when you'd always say, like um, in just a random conversation, he would drop uh just a casual statement of like, well, you know, if we were talking about scores and um the uh and I'm like if I wasn't in the lead going into Sunday, he would always say, like, well, that's all right.
39:39
SPEAKER_03: We always play better on Sunday.
39:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
39:41
SPEAKER_03: And that was not a, it wasn't like you're going to do good.
39:45
SPEAKER_03: You know, you it wasn't it wasn't encouragement in a way that is that makes it feel like he's saying what a coach should say.
39:52
SPEAKER_03: You're you're molding the mind of the student to get them to believe like if you make a big deal out of that statement, then it gets flagged as a coaching moment.
40:03
SPEAKER_03: If you don't make a big deal out of that statement, it it gets flagged as reality.
40:08
SPEAKER_07: But the way you frame that statement to him, that's a deeply planted scene.
40:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
40:12
SPEAKER_03: Oh, for sure.
40:14
SPEAKER_03: To this day.
40:15
SPEAKER_03: To this day, I on a Sunday morning or a Saturday night, when I look at the scores, if I'm a few behind, it doesn't worry me at all.
40:22
unknown: Yeah.
40:22
SPEAKER_05: No, you know, through you know, through my career, if I can get a good Saturday in, my Sundays were always good.
40:28
SPEAKER_05: And I would tell these boys, I go, I go, we're always Sunday shooters.
40:33
SPEAKER_10: Yeah.
40:34
SPEAKER_05: And and I I even will tell you that now.
40:38
SPEAKER_05: If I can get a Saturday score in, I'm gonna be hard to beat on.
40:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, look out.
40:42
SPEAKER_07: Do you believe that statement holds true of you can't win it on the first day, but you can sure as hell lose it on the first day?
40:50
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
40:51
SPEAKER_05: No doubt about it.
40:51
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
40:52
SPEAKER_07: Um, so let me ask this.
40:55
SPEAKER_05: But having said that, most shooters are not good Sunday shooters.
40:59
SPEAKER_05: And and certain techniques are are gonna um survive better than others.
41:05
SPEAKER_05: Well, right.
41:06
SPEAKER_05: And uh, but I I would say that most shooters are not as good on Sunday as they are on Saturday.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: I I would say 95%.
41:15
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
41:16
SPEAKER_07: So going back to, you know, I I just asked David the question about when he realized you were basically teaching him self-awareness.
41:25
SPEAKER_07: David, and you and I have joked about this, and I know you've rolled your eyes a couple of times that because David's very good at explaining things scientifically.
41:33
SPEAKER_07: When he when you get that feedback from him, does that make you look at what you're teaching differently sometimes because of what you've implanted in him?
41:42
SPEAKER_05: No, no, no, because I have my plan.
41:44
SPEAKER_05: Okay, right, and my plan is in his best interest, right?
41:48
SPEAKER_05: Right, and I don't really care what he thinks.
41:51
SPEAKER_05: He never has.
41:52
SPEAKER_05: Right, right.
41:54
SPEAKER_05: I just care about what I think and the job I need to do, right?
41:57
SPEAKER_05: And the reason why I want to do that job with intensity is because I just think a lot of him, right, and and stuff, and so it matters to me, but I don't really care what he thinks.
42:09
SPEAKER_05: I I'm gonna tell him what he needs to think, right?
42:13
SPEAKER_05: And and and but it if he comes up with something better, then then I'm good with that too.
42:19
SPEAKER_07: So I want to jump back just for a second.
42:22
SPEAKER_07: You closed the guitar case and took up coaching full-time in 20.
42:27
SPEAKER_05: Actually, in in uh nine uh well uh for full-time.
42:31
SPEAKER_05: I started in um 99.
42:34
SPEAKER_05: 99.
42:34
SPEAKER_05: But um I I closed the guitar case backstage at the Rama in uh April 29th of 2002.
42:40
SPEAKER_07: Okay.
42:41
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
42:41
SPEAKER_07: So that's where I want to start with this question.
42:45
SPEAKER_07: So in the last 24 years, yeah, did you believe something in your coaching that you do not believe today?
42:53
SPEAKER_05: No, you know, I think about this every day, and I'm very pleased that um, and and David can verify this too.
43:01
SPEAKER_05: I'm very pleased that I didn't follow status quo.
43:05
SPEAKER_05: I questioned everything that we'd always been told, and I took a lot of heat over it, and so did he.
43:27
SPEAKER_05: I mean, almost polar opposite from the beginning.
43:30
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, uh from the beginning.
43:31
SPEAKER_05: And I remember getting a phone call from a very famous instructor, and he goes, What the hell are you coaching?
43:37
SPEAKER_08: Really?
43:38
SPEAKER_05: And I go, Well, I go, I'm coaching what I believe in.
43:42
SPEAKER_05: And and I go, I'm gonna sink or swim by.
43:46
SPEAKER_05: And um, and now I'm very um pleased with the success that we've had.
43:56
SPEAKER_05: And and I can take my army of shooters and And I'll beat anybody's ass in the world.
44:03
SPEAKER_05: And it's just true.
44:05
SPEAKER_05: If we put a squad together and just my guys, nobody's gonna touch them.
44:10
SPEAKER_03: I'd agree with that.
44:11
SPEAKER_05: I mean, think about David, Tom, Joe, Todd.
44:14
SPEAKER_05: Put that on a squad and have it.
44:17
SPEAKER_07: That's uh I wouldn't want to compete against your own one.
44:20
SPEAKER_05: No.
44:20
SPEAKER_05: And and I'm uh and I'm just really proud that I stuck to my guns, uh, tried to be authentic, and I did what I thought was right and it panned out.
44:30
SPEAKER_05: Um and I'm probably most proud of that than anything I've ever won.
44:36
SPEAKER_05: And and I made it to the Hall of Fame.
44:38
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I'm probably most proud of not following along, um, having my own agenda and fully believing in that, and then it turned out so successful.
44:51
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
44:51
SPEAKER_05: Um and um that just brings me a lot of joy.
44:55
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
44:56
SPEAKER_05: And and and it's just to know that after all these years, uh you you were right.
45:02
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, that's yeah.
45:03
SPEAKER_05: Uh at a time, like I remember when uh Reddit was gonna sponsor him and he had to lose me as a coach, get this other coach, uh, tremendous amount of pressure.
45:15
SPEAKER_05: That's and they would be 30 of our peers who who were all great shots, and they're all pointing their finger, going, Don't go there, he's crazy.
45:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you can't, I mean, think about that.
45:26
SPEAKER_03: Like I got as a maybe 11-year-old kid.
45:29
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, about that, 12.
45:30
SPEAKER_03: As an 11, 12-year-old kid, I got offered a contract with Beretta to be a sponsored shooter.
45:37
SPEAKER_03: Uh only if I Yeah, but don't say the names.
45:43
SPEAKER_03: I won't, yeah.
45:44
SPEAKER_03: Only if I but even if anybody does know who it was, it was not this person's That's right.
45:50
SPEAKER_03: That's right.
45:51
SPEAKER_03: Not that person's doing.
45:52
SPEAKER_05: That's right.
45:52
SPEAKER_03: Um But uh I the only way that they would that I that I would uh be able to get that contract was if I were to publicly say that Wendell was not my like I didn't have to make a statement, but basically I I had to basically pretend that Wendell taught me nothing and this other person was my coach.
46:12
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that is insane.
46:13
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, isn't that insane?
46:15
SPEAKER_07: I can't believe and look, I I don't know the situation, I don't know who was behind it, but it's it's hard for me to comprehend that you're gonna try to capture and mold an 11-year-old kid with something like that.
46:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, I I yeah, that too, but the but the reason why I say that story is to show how much pressure he had.
46:37
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
46:37
SPEAKER_03: You know, that's a lot, yeah.
46:39
SPEAKER_03: How much of the industry didn't believe in what he was teaching, yeah.
46:44
SPEAKER_03: Because it was something that he, you know, I would add a thing to what Wendell said um about about what he, you know, the fact that it was different.
46:54
SPEAKER_03: It wasn't that it was different because he wanted to be different.
46:58
SPEAKER_03: No, it was it was different because he asked why, and he realized that the answer to why doing the thing that was not different didn't make sense, and so he he kept at it like it he studied it right until he found an answer to why, and it led him to what he did, and it was different.
47:18
SPEAKER_07: So you've used the word um temper a lot in this, and you don't mean temper like temper tantrum, you mean temper is in to change, and I'm I'm relating that with you is tempo, yeah.
47:32
SPEAKER_07: And I think that's where a lot of that came from, right?
47:34
SPEAKER_07: Am I right?
47:36
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
47:36
SPEAKER_05: Well, even for your eyes to work, and this is what people don't understand at and I'm I'm talking about the very best shots, um, don't understand.
47:46
SPEAKER_05: If you're if you're not in flow with the target, and I know everybody says we're gonna move at the speed of the target, well I almost never see somebody who is.
47:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
47:53
SPEAKER_03: I mean, very, very rare.
47:55
SPEAKER_03: I mean, by definition, the way a lot of other people shoot is very uh they gotta pick one or the other.
48:01
SPEAKER_05: That's right.
48:02
SPEAKER_05: And uh um, so if you're if you break flow or or you're not in flow, which means the gun has to travel at target speed, your visual percentile is gonna be too low to be a very dominant shooter, or maybe even win at all.
48:24
SPEAKER_05: Uh and it's just physics.
48:26
SPEAKER_05: And now science proves all this.
48:29
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
48:29
SPEAKER_05: Um, probably the last maybe two years, you think?
48:33
SPEAKER_05: Something like that?
48:35
SPEAKER_03: Well, the the difference that's happened in the last two years is that it's more accessible to get the independent research, and it's basically like the it's easier now to be able to say, like, oh, well, when you start study neurology, here's the answer to this, and when you study ophthalmology, here's the answer to this.
48:55
SPEAKER_03: When you study ophthoneurology, here's the answer to this, and when you study physiology, here's the answer to this.
49:00
SPEAKER_03: And oh, now because we can get all those answers, they point to one answer.
49:03
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:05
SPEAKER_07: Have you ever had a student come to you and or or maybe let's just go back maybe towards the beginning, students would come to you and you used to automatically correct something that maybe now you'll leave that alone, like that's not that important.
49:19
SPEAKER_05: Um little nuance or well, I've I've certainly learned what matters and doesn't.
49:24
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, that's what I'm getting at.
49:26
SPEAKER_05: Right.
49:26
SPEAKER_05: When I first started, I was a a r kind of a stickler, it had to be this way.
49:30
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
49:30
SPEAKER_05: Right.
49:31
SPEAKER_05: And now through time and 30 years has gone by, almost 30 years, and and um um I've learned what is important and and what's not.
49:42
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
49:42
SPEAKER_05: Right.
49:43
SPEAKER_07: And I that's what I was just gonna ask too, because and this kind of follows it is have you ever seen a student do something, corrected it, and then thought, oh hell, I do that too.
49:53
SPEAKER_06: No, no, no, no, no.
49:55
SPEAKER_07: I figured with this guy, you were gonna be like, oh, very few people do what I do.
50:02
SPEAKER_05: Maybe as in nobody.
50:12
SPEAKER_07: Oh my goodness.
50:13
SPEAKER_07: Have you ever had um a student that did something that made you change, and I don't mean like completely change, maybe a small part of your game or what you what you coach?
50:26
SPEAKER_05: Um, you know, almost every day I go out, I see, I see, and I take notes in my head of things not to do, or something somebody would do that would uh bring up something I'd forgotten about or something that that you know that I need to tend to.
50:43
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
50:43
SPEAKER_05: Right.
50:44
SPEAKER_05: Um and um especially if I'm shooting with David or Tom or or some of those guys at that caliber, I see it all the time.
50:51
SPEAKER_05: I go, man, I need to do that better.
50:53
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
50:53
SPEAKER_05: Right.
50:54
SPEAKER_05: Um and but I'm constantly, every day I go out, every day I get up, I'm trying to be better every day.
51:00
SPEAKER_05: What whether it's behind the gun or psychologically, um I'm constant mop monitoring my inner dialogue.
51:10
SPEAKER_05: I think that's so, so important.
51:12
SPEAKER_05: I think I think your your thoughts control your future.
51:16
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
51:17
SPEAKER_05: Um there's just too many people saying it for it not to be true, and I've I've seen it um for years now.
51:25
SPEAKER_05: And so I'm constantly trying to be a half a step better than I was the day before.
51:30
SPEAKER_05: And and it's just uh it's just a route of self-improvement.
51:35
SPEAKER_05: And uh that's really what brings me joy.
51:38
SPEAKER_05: It's not to beat somebody or or any anything like that.
51:41
SPEAKER_05: It's just uh asking uh it's just having a high standard for yourself.
51:46
SPEAKER_07: I I know in our own personal conversations, look, obviously you're very confident what you have works, you have that resume to back that.
51:54
SPEAKER_07: But in our own personal conversations, you're you're pretty attentive to what other coaches do from time to time.
52:01
SPEAKER_07: Um do you think um a coach can actually hurt a shooter's self-awareness by giving him or her too many answers?
52:11
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
52:13
SPEAKER_05: And the longer I coach, the more simplistic it gets, and the less I say.
52:17
SPEAKER_05: And not that I I say enough, right?
52:20
SPEAKER_05: But I try to I try to use as few words as possible and the most simple things.
52:26
SPEAKER_05: They already got enough going on without you complicating it.
52:30
SPEAKER_05: Right.
52:30
SPEAKER_05: So I try to use really simple words, short statements, um, and I consciously do that.
52:35
SPEAKER_05: And I I'm a past the point of trying to prove what I know, right?
52:40
SPEAKER_05: And and and uh and stuff, and so um, and really what I know is just my skill to analyze the shooter.
52:51
SPEAKER_05: You know, there's no magic to it, right?
52:53
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, um, and uh, but to truly analyze it and know the cause and effect of of um of the techniques.
53:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:02
SPEAKER_03: You should if you want a cool um example of that, you should see like, you know, uh maybe two weeks ago or something, Wendell Tom and I were at Tom's house all practicing together and all kind of like helping each other.
53:19
SPEAKER_03: And the uh the amount of words that was said to the amount of information that was communicated was a ridiculous ratio.
53:29
SPEAKER_07: Well, you know, you just commented on that here a few minutes ago while we were taking a break that you know you can call Tom and say this, this, and this, and that's it.
53:39
SPEAKER_05: So with that being said about minimal communication and still achieving a level of coaching, at what point in your coaching, because you and David, Tom have reached that level, and I'm sure some of your other students too, at what point at coaching a student do you make the coach unnecessary from day to day or maybe weekly training, or like when when do you step back and say Well, for you you know, for me personally, like it if I have somebody that I'm trying to build, I go, I would come one once a month.
54:16
SPEAKER_05: And there's really no need to come more often than that.
54:19
SPEAKER_05: I I I'm not a guy that's goes, man, he's gonna come every week.
54:22
SPEAKER_05: Well, you haven't had time to practice.
54:24
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you can't.
54:24
SPEAKER_05: So I need you to go home, train, make mistakes, uh, have successes, and come back with some some some point f a little bit further down the road.
54:34
SPEAKER_05: So about as often as I'll see somebody is about once a month, right?
54:38
SPEAKER_05: And so we'll stay on that schedule until I see I see everything starting to take a route, and then uh and then I'll uh bop bop it back to once every two months.
54:48
SPEAKER_05: And typically then it goes to once a quarter.
54:52
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
54:53
SPEAKER_05: Right.
54:54
SPEAKER_05: Uh even my best uh shooters will stay uh uh one what once a quarter uh for for a kind of a long time.
55:03
SPEAKER_05: Which if you think about it, it's not a lot of coaching.
55:06
SPEAKER_05: No, it's not and so uh but probably you you know my very accomplished shooters um stay about once every three months.
55:17
SPEAKER_08: Wow.
55:18
SPEAKER_05: Right?
55:18
SPEAKER_05: Until finally they uh they're good.
55:23
SPEAKER_07: How important is failure building self-awareness?
55:28
SPEAKER_05: There's no other way to become a champion than failure.
55:32
SPEAKER_05: Failure failure has to be your friend.
55:34
SPEAKER_05: It doesn't make it taste good, but there's there's no other route there.
55:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
55:39
SPEAKER_07: Um and um at what point does okay, but what at what point does failure become rehearsing bad habits versus it just all all all depends on the filter that you see it through.
55:53
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
55:54
SPEAKER_05: Right?
55:54
SPEAKER_05: And uh so if you fail and you didn't learn anything and all you did was get pissed off, all right, well that's a bad failure.
56:02
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
56:02
SPEAKER_05: Right.
56:03
SPEAKER_05: But if if I go to a match this week and I fail, and there's obviously something wrong in the game, and I fix that, and then the next week it's some major that now I'm in a lot better shape to go compete, it was a gift.
56:17
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
56:18
SPEAKER_05: Right?
56:19
SPEAKER_05: And um, so can't be afraid to fail.
56:22
SPEAKER_05: Uh there's no other route there.
56:24
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
56:25
SPEAKER_05: Right.
56:25
SPEAKER_05: Um that's that's the only way you get there.
56:29
SPEAKER_07: Well, I can definitely level with that because I've spent 30 years on the failure side of it.
56:34
SPEAKER_03: Uh and I'm finally starting to see a little bit of light, but I mean uh Well, if you measure failure and success by wins, I would bet that the most successful person fails in this sport 95% of the time.
56:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
56:49
SPEAKER_07: So that's well stated, yeah.
56:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
56:53
SPEAKER_07: With what you've seen, Wendell That was in ten words or less, too.
56:57
SPEAKER_07: I'm impressed with that.
56:59
SPEAKER_07: I'm more impressed with that with him than than the actual statement.
57:02
SPEAKER_05: Um little words.
57:03
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
57:06
SPEAKER_07: We didn't have to get the source out and figure out what it was.
57:09
SPEAKER_05: No, that's right.
57:10
SPEAKER_07: Um, so what and and this is a big one.
57:15
SPEAKER_07: I mean, this I this gets talked about a ton.
57:17
SPEAKER_07: I've had people write into me.
57:18
SPEAKER_07: Um, I know we had you on uh one of the podcasts we did was winter training with you.
57:23
SPEAKER_07: That was perceived really well.
57:26
SPEAKER_07: Um, but what does pressure reveal that practice hides?
57:32
SPEAKER_05: That's a really good question.
57:34
SPEAKER_05: Number one, pressure is a privilege.
57:38
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
57:39
SPEAKER_05: It's a true privilege.
57:41
SPEAKER_07: And never looked at it like that, but you're right.
57:43
SPEAKER_07: Yeah.
57:43
SPEAKER_05: It's absolutely because that means you're alive, that means you're in the game, that's why you feel that pressure, and and you're about to win or lose.
57:52
SPEAKER_03: It means you care.
57:53
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
57:54
SPEAKER_05: Um, so pre pressure is it is something that's really nice.
57:59
SPEAKER_05: That's that's a compliment.
58:01
SPEAKER_05: That's uh that's a i indicator that you're on the right track.
58:07
SPEAKER_05: So uh so that's nothing bad.
58:10
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
58:10
SPEAKER_05: Right?
58:10
SPEAKER_05: That's when you feel most alive, that's when your hands are shaking, and and you're just trying to keep it together to survive this last station.
58:19
SPEAKER_05: That's a wonderful thing.
58:20
SPEAKER_03: That's the best feeling in the world.
58:21
SPEAKER_05: It's the best feeling in the world.
58:23
SPEAKER_05: And you and if you get good enough, you become addicted to that.
58:27
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and that's maybe becomes why you shoot.
58:29
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
58:30
SPEAKER_07: I remember you said that one time on a podcast.
58:33
SPEAKER_07: You said, man, when you're coming down the final stretch on Sunday, and you know, you've got to finish these last three stations out strong, and that's when you feel alive.
58:41
SPEAKER_05: It's the most alive you ever felt.
58:43
SPEAKER_07: I swear I'm not making this up.
58:45
SPEAKER_07: God is my witness.
58:47
SPEAKER_07: I was coming down, I had three stations left to go.
58:49
SPEAKER_07: You were thinking about it, and I said, Wendell said, This is when I feel alive, and right now I feel like I'm about to pass out.
58:56
SPEAKER_05: So if you if you think about it, that when you feel that pressure, that that's a privilege, um, that kind of takes the edge off of it and allows you to control it and maybe even smile inside and go, man, I'm playing today.
59:10
SPEAKER_05: It did.
59:11
SPEAKER_05: Right.
59:12
SPEAKER_05: And um, and so um I th I think that's a good thing.
59:16
SPEAKER_05: It it it's when I don't feel that that I'm worried.
59:19
SPEAKER_07: So since we're talking about pressure, what's the first thing in Wendell Cherry that changes when pressure shows up?
59:28
SPEAKER_05: Um tension uh comes up.
59:31
SPEAKER_05: Um I'm I'm not super nice.
59:41
SPEAKER_05: Um and um um and of course he's seen it hundreds of times.
59:47
SPEAKER_05: Uh tension levels come up.
59:49
SPEAKER_05: Uh as your tension comes up, your visual cone gets bigger, so it's harder to see.
59:57
SPEAKER_05: Um those things.
59:59
SPEAKER_05: And that's why I'm just not gonna allow it um to take over.
1:00:04
SPEAKER_05: And now there there is shoots that it does, right?
1:00:07
SPEAKER_05: But that's not the good me, that's the bad me.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_07: I really want to ask you the same question, but I think it's gonna be harder for you to answer it because he doesn't really feel pressure that way.
1:00:17
SPEAKER_07: He doesn't feel pressure that way.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_05: I mean, and it's and I guess he does feel it, but uh but he controls, I think it has less effect on David than most other shooters.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_03: For me, it's the it's the opposite.
1:00:30
SPEAKER_03: Like for me, when pressure comes up, the better way for me to answer that question is what what is the first thing I feel when I don't feel pressure?
1:00:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and um what I when I don't feel pressure, I feel I have an um completely unorganized, chaotic, non-linear thought process.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_03: I can't decide what I want that thought process to be on.
1:01:01
SPEAKER_03: I can't decide what I want to pay attention to.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_03: I have an extremely low form of discipline, like almost zero, um, and I have a complete 100% level of time blindness, which means that I cannot think about anything other than what's like right now, which is means hyper presence, but the downside to that, if you add time blindness to hyperpresence, is that you lose connectedness with the with the importance of the thing that you're doing in the moment, which means that's where the discipline goes.
1:01:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and so I will not be able to realize that I'm in the middle of a world championship and I need to be serious and be all the things that Wendell says that he feels when he gets pressure.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_03: But when I get pressure, um my thought process becomes completely linear, it's one thought at a time.
1:02:05
SPEAKER_03: I get to pick which thought I want to have next.
1:02:07
SPEAKER_03: I can stay focused as long as I want.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_03: My body actually calms down because if you can imagine, like most it's just the way that the difference between the neurodiversity uh that whatever it is that I have, um, where like I have much more anxiousness and tension when I'm not under pressure because of all that stuff happening in my head, I'm overstimulated.
1:02:31
SPEAKER_03: So I can't feel my body that well because I'm I'm I'm hearing a hundred different things, I'm I'm seeing and thinking a hundred different things.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_03: And so for for me to decide, oh, I need to pay attention to how much tension I have right now is almost impossible.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_03: If I get pressure and I and it's like a super high value moment, I know how much it means, I know what matters, I can, and those things now my discipline becomes incredible.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_03: My ability to focus in a finite period of time is incredible, and it and because of that alignment of thought, it's actually completely relaxing.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_07: I I'm gonna take I've seen you under pressure outside of shooting, and it's kind of comical, but in shooting, I I think the only time I've ever seen it in you and shooting, and you tell me if I'm right or wrong, 2024 nationals or 2023.
1:03:25
SPEAKER_07: I think it was 2023.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_07: He would shoot and I don't mean just come out of the cage, make a beeline to the next one.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_07: He was respectful of the squad, wouldn't talk to anybody.
1:03:35
SPEAKER_03: If I'm if I'm I'm not respect, I'm selfish if I'm shooting well.
1:03:40
SPEAKER_03: Oh, you were shooting well, yeah.
1:03:42
SPEAKER_07: You were shooting well, yeah.
1:03:43
SPEAKER_07: I think you shot a 72 or 73 on that court, and that was a hard course.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_07: Um, it wasn't the final day, it was the day before, it was Saturday.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_07: And you remember me, you and Sean went to dinner, and that was when Sean made the joke.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_07: He's like, Wow, David, you really can shoot.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, yeah, but it was that he goes, We're sitting there, he goes, Wow, you really can shoot.
1:04:02
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, thanks.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_03: You've known me for five years.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_07: Um, but am I right the saying that was pressure for you?
1:04:10
SPEAKER_07: Even if maybe somewhat self-inflicted.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_03: See, the problem is that I uh it's a huge disadvantage.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_03: I hate the fact that I'm like that.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_03: Uh, this is not me bragging about oh, I handle pressure really well and I get calm.
1:04:23
SPEAKER_03: I hate it.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_03: It's my least favorite part about me.
1:04:25
SPEAKER_03: Wendell knows this.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_03: I talk to him about it all the time, and um the uh uh but I can it there are times when I because of a high level of self-awareness, I can I can fake myself sometimes.
1:04:42
SPEAKER_03: I I can trick myself sometimes, and um I can force focus if I if I can um put enough barriers up starting at the right time before I it I have to put a huge amount of discipline in in um manipulating my environment everywhere and certain things in the environment really help me, and so like a super squad really helps me because it it when I am paying attention outside and I have all this stuff going on, the environment around is more serious, and and so then it reminds me, oh, this is and so then that helps.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_03: And if there's cameras around, that helps.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_03: And so what you saw at that nationals.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_03: I know exactly the round you're talking about.
1:05:37
SPEAKER_03: I don't think I actually felt pressure, but I think I was doing a really good job at faking it.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, well, there's more maybe intensity, yeah.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_03: Than that's the right word.
1:05:47
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, than pressure.
1:05:48
SPEAKER_05: You know, you you know, the last open I won, I remember on Sunday.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_05: And of course, um yeah, like you were on my squad on Sunday.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_05: Um, I was on it.
1:05:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he he he almost fell asleep.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_03: Before his last pair.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:06:01
SPEAKER_03: Or not pair, but station.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_03: Station.
1:06:03
SPEAKER_05: He he was standing there, we were waiting to see the show birds, and he's eye, yeah, he's yawning, and his eyes were like uh so what's happening to state, and I know uh everybody out there in uh podcast land's gonna think this is nuts, but I I had I had controlled the tension so well and got so deep into the relaxation that uh I I was starting to yawn.
1:06:30
SPEAKER_05: Wow and like he'd come up again.
1:06:32
SPEAKER_03: He's not exaggerating about that at all.
1:06:34
SPEAKER_03: No, like he was swaying a little bit standing up.
1:06:37
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's true.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_05: And and and and I knew what was at stake and uh um and and I'd gotten so deep that I was yawning, and so it was the opposite.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_05: Wow, right.
1:06:51
SPEAKER_07: Now I want to ask this question, and I let me just clarify, this is as much about me at as it is you.
1:06:59
SPEAKER_07: I'm not calling you old by any means, but has getting has getting older made you more mechanically aware, mentally aware, or both?
1:07:11
SPEAKER_05: Mentally aware.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_05: I think the technique is about the same place it's always been the the uh the speed is uh still as fast as it always was, maybe on some things faster.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_05: Uh the eye speed is still a lot l like.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's crazy.
1:07:30
SPEAKER_05: And yeah, and that boy can see.
1:07:32
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, um what what I fight is how society um kind of conditions you to think that you're old.
1:07:43
SPEAKER_05: And it's kind of like you're driving down the highway.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_05: Silver vitamins for 50 and old.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_05: Right?
1:07:50
SPEAKER_05: Right?
1:07:51
SPEAKER_05: Silver vitamins, right?
1:07:52
SPEAKER_05: Uh and and and and if you pay attention to this, it's constant bombardment of that.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_05: And I can I can see in other people's faces that they don't believe in in me anymore.
1:08:06
SPEAKER_05: I I I can see that look, and I pick up on that look.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_05: I don't say anything, right?
1:08:11
SPEAKER_05: But I feel it.
1:08:12
SPEAKER_05: And it's fighting that off a little bit.
1:08:15
SPEAKER_05: That's uh it's not so much what I think about it, it's what uh other people think about it, I guess.
1:08:21
SPEAKER_05: And I I hate being in vets.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_05: Um I uh like I won the world at uh last year uh and like I didn't even go get get get the trophy.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_05: Really because I just don't want no part of it.
1:08:36
SPEAKER_07: Well and and understand the basis of my statement, and I'm asking that because now I'm gonna be 54 in November.
1:08:42
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm 62.
1:08:43
SPEAKER_07: Well okay, so you got a couple minutes on me.
1:08:46
SPEAKER_07: But what I'm getting at is the by by asking this question is I didn't start to I was I didn't become aware of these things until here it is all these years later.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:08:57
SPEAKER_07: And and that's why I was curious, is like well, are you more mentally aware or you're more mechanically aware as you've gotten older?
1:09:05
SPEAKER_07: Because now I'm more mentally aware of what I'm doing.
1:09:08
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, me too.
1:09:09
SPEAKER_07: And the mechanics is I haven't worked on my mechanics.
1:09:12
SPEAKER_07: I mean, since I moved from Ohio, I don't have my own traps.
1:09:14
SPEAKER_07: We talked about that, and now it's an hour drive to go to practice.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_07: I'm not shooting as much as I used to.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_07: So my technique, I haven't I haven't worked on my technique any.
1:09:23
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, it's it's here and what I'm feeling here that has changed.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_05: Well, here's the thing if you can go to practice, no matter what your age is, and if you can go to practice and you can execute in practice, then it's not your age.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_05: If you go to practice and your speed's there, your vision's there, um, and you're able to do everything that you want to do the way you want to do it, then it's not your age.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_05: If it was, you're not able to do it in in um in in training.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:09:58
SPEAKER_05: If if if I'm 62 and I can't run a a 40 and uh in three seconds anymore, right, right, well then it's my age.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, right.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_05: But if you can, then it's not.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_03: I don't I don't believe um and I think it's I think it's true.
1:10:18
SPEAKER_05: I think it's uh all depends on the person.
1:10:21
SPEAKER_05: I don't I don't think everybody's the same.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_05: And I I I think the thing uh that changes it is just w your headspace.
1:10:31
SPEAKER_07: Well said.
1:10:32
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I don't um I don't think that age has anything to do with uh becoming more self-aware.
1:10:39
SPEAKER_03: I think it's a decision to.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:10:42
SPEAKER_03: And it you can become more self-aware at any age by deciding that that's an important thing to do.
1:10:51
SPEAKER_03: And it there's a it's like that causation versus correlation thing.
1:10:55
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, you ever heard the saying that uh hotter temperatures are responsible for like selling or no increase in ice cream sales uh increases the temperature.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you know, that's it's that's correlation, not causation.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_03: Right.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_03: And um the reverse is the true statement, uh hotter temperature.
1:11:18
SPEAKER_03: Um it's the same way in shooting in this thing that we're talking about here, which is that like age does not increase your awareness, but it just so happens to be that most of the time when people get older, as you I mean, I like if I compare myself now to five years ago, huge difference in self-awareness.
1:11:40
SPEAKER_03: But uh because of as I get older, um like because of what I've experienced in my life, there have been times in my life where I've decided to reflect on, and when that starts to happen more and more, or if it's important for you enough to get better at a specific thing, and you truly buy in to like the importance of what actually is, you know, like um before we started recording this, and I was asking Wendell about the guitar stuff, right?
1:12:09
SPEAKER_03: Playing an instrument is such an important thing to being able to have physical awareness, uh emotional awareness, not necessarily visual awareness, because if if I'm not you saw how I was struggling to do the thing with the fingers, right?
1:12:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the only way for me to actually do that well is if I sit there and pay attention to feeling my fingers and controlling them the way that I want to.
1:12:36
SPEAKER_03: If I'm trying to do that while having a conversation with Wendell and trying to pick the and trying to think about all these things, it's not gonna happen.
1:12:42
SPEAKER_03: So I could you could fast forward me 20 years from now, and if I have that same mindset, it's still gonna be equally as challenging.
1:12:50
SPEAKER_03: But if I decide in that moment, like, okay, give me time, I want to focus on paying attention to how this feels, and I want all of my attention to be on controlling these three fingers right here.
1:12:59
SPEAKER_03: Uh immediately I'm gonna be more uh self-aware and better at improving.
1:13:03
SPEAKER_03: And I and like as a coach, and I'm sure Wendell would agree with this, like we have students that come at all ages, and yeah, uh the generally the older ones are sometimes on average maybe more self-aware, but I would also argue that some of my least self-aware students are the older ones, um, and because you can live a life that takes you all the way through it without having to be forced to pay attention to that.
1:13:30
SPEAKER_03: Someone like Wendell, Wendell's personality, you know, like nobody in the world, uh, you know, I I know Wendell so well.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_03: And um the fact that he talks about feeling things and and the movement is about feel and tempo and timing, and it's like a lot of people attribute that to being a musician.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_03: I attribute him being a musician to that.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
1:13:52
SPEAKER_03: You know, that's true.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_05: Well, the the other thing too about my age is the way we shoot, we we don't really react to anything.
1:13:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:14:00
SPEAKER_05: So we're so we we control the target.
1:14:03
SPEAKER_05: When you you use a style that's built on trying to react, it's a shorter career.
1:14:10
SPEAKER_05: Um and but but because then um the age is gonna take a toll.
1:14:16
SPEAKER_05: I believe the way we shoot, like you can shoot at a very high level for a very long time, because you're not reacting.
1:14:24
SPEAKER_03: Tell me how it would be if age was um a factor in this not to pick on Wendell, but if you uh uh if you uh not because of the age, but like if you add on top of uh all the cigarettes that Wendell smoked compared to me and anything else, and like my affinity for water and Wendell's lack of uh tell me why his eyes are better than mine.
1:14:59
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, right?
1:15:02
SPEAKER_03: If we if you were to come out and watch us shoot, if you were to come watch us practice, okay, and I and you tell me, David, show off, like shoot really fast, but okay, sounds good.
1:15:15
SPEAKER_03: Uh and I'll pressure a bird as fast as I possibly can.
1:15:19
SPEAKER_03: And um like both visually and mechanically, you'd be like, holy shit, that was incredible.
1:15:27
SPEAKER_03: And that then I'd be like, Wendell, try it, and he'll do it exactly as like uh he's I'm not gonna be able to shoot it earlier than him.
1:15:37
SPEAKER_03: Um at best it's gonna be in the same spot, but guaranteed I didn't see it as good as he did.
1:15:47
SPEAKER_03: I would never argue on any bird that I see clarity as quickly as he does.
1:15:55
SPEAKER_03: Um and the uh so how if that's the case, what's one of the first things that goes as you your vision?
1:16:05
SPEAKER_03: And so tell me how that makes sense.
1:16:07
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't, it doesn't make sense.
1:16:10
SPEAKER_07: I need your wife to send me a copy of your diet plan and see if we can start with that.
1:16:15
SPEAKER_05: Well, it's powdered donuts and coke.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_07: Um so I want to I before we go to break here, real quick, I want to throw a uh a question, scenario out to both of you, and uh start with you, Wendell.
1:16:28
SPEAKER_07: So if I take a student, you don't know who he is or or who she is, or whatever, never been to you before, and I give you each one hour with this student, what is something you're gonna notice about the student that he won't, and what is something you're gonna notice about the student that he won't?
1:16:44
SPEAKER_05: I don't I don't think um I I think I'll notice everything about the student and and maybe that's my air arrogance, but I don't think there's anything that I won't notice, and I I think he's the same.
1:16:56
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we we would probably uh use different words or filter it differently.
1:17:01
SPEAKER_05: But uh but but our our awareness, because we talk about it uh uh a lot, um is about equal.
1:17:10
SPEAKER_05: About each other.
1:17:11
SPEAKER_03: But that kind of to me that kind of um makes sense because like the now I here's a uh a way to actually probably differentiate that question a little bit more to get a different answer would be the a good question would be how would you notice what you're noticing?
1:17:30
SPEAKER_05: Well see, well see, when I start uh if if it's a new student, I start studying you in the parking lot.
1:17:35
SPEAKER_05: Really?
1:17:36
SPEAKER_05: If you show up just on time, you're probably not gonna make it.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_03: Right, because what if when Wendell formed that the opinion of me, my dad was driving?
1:17:48
SPEAKER_03: Okay, yeah.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_05: But but it's it's just if if it's a really a burning desire, you you would be early.
1:17:55
SPEAKER_08: Yeah.
1:17:56
SPEAKER_05: Right?
1:17:57
SPEAKER_05: Like you're not gonna slide in there and we're supposed to start at eight and you show up at 7.59.
1:18:03
SPEAKER_05: Unless something went wrong that morning, that tells me your your your desire's probably not gonna be high enough.
1:18:10
SPEAKER_05: Right, just little things like that.
1:18:12
SPEAKER_05: Um, how you get out of the truck, right?
1:18:15
SPEAKER_05: Um, the things you do in the parking lot, all of that tells me a whole lot, even before we walk out to shoot.
1:18:21
SPEAKER_05: Right.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_05: And um, so so you you just try to learn as much as you can about the guy as fast as you can, uh, so so you're able to do a better job of coaching.
1:18:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this the the the frame that um time frame that is not the lesson is hugely important to understanding the person's personality.
1:18:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:18:48
SPEAKER_03: And and uh like literally physical mannerisms, the way they walk, how they're how they're putting stuff on their cart, if they're how like how they're um are they mentally in what they're doing as they're loading their bag up, or are they talking to you and not paying attention to what they're doing as they load everything up?
1:19:08
SPEAKER_03: Are how what's the cadence of their speech?
1:19:10
SPEAKER_03: What's like how how much energy is there exuding from them?
1:19:14
SPEAKER_03: All of these things that if you if uh like it's a you the read on that is very it's not Wendell's not saying like um you know I'm putting you through a judgmental filter by paying attention to that.
1:19:31
SPEAKER_03: What he's saying is like those those traits and characteristics tell me everything about how you learn, how you think, how much and what you're gonna be able to be aware of, all of these things.
1:19:44
SPEAKER_03: And literally the spectrum is so huge.
1:19:48
SPEAKER_07: Yeah, and to put it in a blatant layman's terms, when I started off in excavating in 93, I can remember the boss I had, you know, at the time we we were we were just we were residential excavators, like we were digging basements.
1:20:02
SPEAKER_07: And uh so you had the excavator operator and you had his his labor or grade man as they called him, and I remember the owner of that company telling me, he's like, I could tell a lot by a guy by how he keeps the tools in the truck.
1:20:12
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
1:20:12
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's the same thing.
1:20:15
SPEAKER_05: And it's not always right, but it's mostly right.
1:20:17
SPEAKER_07: Well, and you know, I I I was like, wow, and I kind of stood there for a minute.
1:20:22
SPEAKER_07: I thought, is everything in order in the truck?
1:20:24
SPEAKER_07: And then he he followed it up and he said, I'm not saying that it makes a person good or bad.
1:20:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:20:30
SPEAKER_07: I'm telling you, I can tell a lot about the character of the person by how they keep the tools in the truck.
1:20:35
SPEAKER_07: That's right.
1:20:35
SPEAKER_07: And it's no different.
1:20:36
SPEAKER_07: The only the the sad thing about this is you're judging, you're not judging, excuse me.
1:20:41
SPEAKER_07: You're you're you're observing is the word I wanted to use how the what time the person gets there and how they get out of the truck and stuff.
1:20:48
SPEAKER_07: Poor David's an hour late to the lesson anyway, so he's not gonna be able to judge, you know.
1:20:52
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but the only reason I'm an hour late to the lesson is because it's been an hour more with the previous person.
1:20:56
SPEAKER_07: I know, and that's because you got there late to begin with.
1:20:59
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I'm never late in the morning.
1:21:02
SPEAKER_03: By the end of the day, I'm like generally multiple hours late.
1:21:06
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
1:21:07
SPEAKER_03: Like, meaning like I take I finish the last person.
1:21:10
SPEAKER_07: Well, there's that's the thing.
1:21:12
SPEAKER_07: There's so many similarities about the two of you, even though on the cover you appear so totally different.
1:21:18
SPEAKER_03: We have an insanely similar um interpretation of life through a completely opposite lens.
1:21:24
SPEAKER_03: I would put it that way.
1:21:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:21:26
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
1:21:27
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:21:27
SPEAKER_07: Well, uh, let's take a break and uh we'll wrap this up.
1:21:30
SPEAKER_07: In the meantime, we're gonna get you over to uh Ed Pritchell, make a break ed for a make a break update.
1:21:36
SPEAKER_07: Y'all sit tuned or stay tuned, we'll be right back.
1:21:43
SPEAKER_01: Hi, Jason.
1:21:44
SPEAKER_01: Good to be with you again.
1:21:45
SPEAKER_01: We had a great inaugural World Super Sporting event at the Northbrook Sports Club.
1:21:50
SPEAKER_01: Of course, Northbrook has a lot of experience when it comes to putting on a major event and once again did a world-class job.
1:21:56
SPEAKER_01: The Northbrook Sports Club generously added 1,500 to the purse, 500 to level 1, and 1,000 to level 2, bringing the total purse just shy of five grand.
1:22:07
SPEAKER_01: We started qualifying for the Make a Break Top Gun Shootout Thursday afternoon with the cutoff at 5 p.m.
1:22:13
SPEAKER_01: on Saturday and the show starting at 6.30.
1:22:16
SPEAKER_01: We took the top four in level one and the top eight in level two, and the matchups looked like this.
1:22:23
SPEAKER_01: In the first level one semifinal game, Ryan McCoy faced off against Dennis McAlfish.
1:22:29
SPEAKER_01: At the turn, Ryan had an 11-point advantage, 19-8, with two pairs still remaining and Ryan leading by eight points.
1:22:36
SPEAKER_01: Nothing changed in the ninth frame.
1:22:38
SPEAKER_01: And coming into the final pair, Ryan still leading by eight points, called for the Browning two and missed the federal number one.
1:22:47
SPEAKER_01: Dennis then called the Rhino Choke seven to tie, but failed to connect, making Ryan the victor.
1:22:54
SPEAKER_01: In semifinal game two, Caden Grossman went head-to-head with Jamie Williams.
1:22:58
SPEAKER_01: Jamie shot a great first half, 26-6, leaving Caden with a 17-point deficit.
1:23:05
SPEAKER_01: And by the eighth frame, Jamie had taken the victory 27-8.
1:23:09
SPEAKER_01: In the level one championship game, Ryan McCoy and Jamie Williams shot it out.
1:23:15
SPEAKER_01: At the turn, Jamie was in the lead 18 to 11.
1:23:18
SPEAKER_01: After two pairs, the score was 24-20, with Jamie still in the lead by four points.
1:23:24
SPEAKER_01: Next, Jamie called the Browning two and broke it.
1:23:27
SPEAKER_01: Ryan countered with a Remington three and crushed it.
1:23:30
SPEAKER_01: So coming into the final pairs, Jamie was in the lead 27-24.
1:23:35
SPEAKER_01: Jamie called the Remington 3 to put the pressure back on Ryan but failed to connect, leaving Ryan down by four points.
1:23:43
SPEAKER_01: Everyone thought Ryan would call the Remington 3 to tie the game and force the Rhino Choke 7 shootoff.
1:23:49
SPEAKER_01: They were stunned when instead he called for the Rhino Choke 7.
1:23:53
SPEAKER_01: Ryan called pull and missed the Federal number one twice, making Jamie Williams our level 1 champion by a score of 28 to 25.
1:24:03
SPEAKER_01: In level 2, the matchups went like this.
1:24:06
SPEAKER_01: Quarterfinal game one, Kirsten Sales and Tristan Stubbs faced off.
1:24:10
SPEAKER_01: They both shot well in the first half, only dropping their Federal Masterclass six.
1:24:15
SPEAKER_01: That left them tied at 27 points each at the turn.
1:24:19
SPEAKER_01: Kirsten had to lead off and struggled to make a call, and after having just crushed a Rhinochoke seven in the first half, decided to go very conservative with the Remington three, which she missed.
1:24:31
SPEAKER_01: Tristan called an elite shotgun's four and crushed it to take the lead 32 to 28.
1:24:36
SPEAKER_01: He followed with a Remington 3 to bring his lead to eight points.
1:24:40
SPEAKER_01: Kirsten countered with an elite four and cut her deficit to three points.
1:24:44
SPEAKER_01: Coming into the final pair, Tristan led 37-36.
1:24:49
SPEAKER_01: Tristan called the Remington three to bring his lead to five.
1:24:52
SPEAKER_01: Kirsten called the promadic five for the win and missed high and behind, making Tristan the winner.
1:24:59
SPEAKER_01: In quarterfinal game two, Jack Sykes and George Gable met up.
1:25:04
SPEAKER_01: George shot the first half well and had a commanding lead over Jack by a score of 26-8.
1:25:10
SPEAKER_01: And two frames later, George finished him off with a Remington three and a score of 35-9.
1:25:16
SPEAKER_01: In quarterfinal game three, Bob Graves and Cliff Seibert shot it out.
1:25:21
SPEAKER_01: At the turn, Cliff had the lead 27-19 and chose to lead off with the Elite Shotguns four, which he crushed.
1:25:28
SPEAKER_01: Bob hit the Rhino Choke seven in the eighth frame, cutting Cliff's lead to five points with two pairs to go.
1:25:35
SPEAKER_01: The difference remained the same at five points coming into the final pair.
1:25:39
SPEAKER_01: Cliff called and crushed a Remington three for the win.
1:25:43
SPEAKER_01: In quarterfinal game four, Cameron Hicks and JP Taman went head to head.
1:25:48
SPEAKER_01: Both shot the first half well and were tied at the turn 20-20.
1:25:52
SPEAKER_01: After the eighth frame, with two pairs still remaining, Cameron led by five points, 31-26.
1:25:59
SPEAKER_01: Cameron smashed a Remington three, and JP failed to connect on a rhino choke seven, making the score 35-27.
1:26:07
SPEAKER_01: Cameron called the Browning two and crushed it to win the game.
1:26:12
SPEAKER_01: Then heading into the semifinals, in semifinal game one, Tristan Stubbs faced off against George Gable.
1:26:19
SPEAKER_01: Both competitors shot a great first half, with Tristan taking the lead 25-21.
1:26:25
SPEAKER_01: Tristan went on to call and destroy the Elite Four, a Remington three, and a Browning 2.
1:26:31
SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, George attempted a couple of Federal Masterclass sixes and couldn't connect, making Tristan Stubbs the winner 37-28.
1:26:40
SPEAKER_01: In semifinal game two, Cliff Seibert went head-to-head with Cameron Hicks.
1:26:45
SPEAKER_01: At the turn, Cameron was in the driver's seat by a score of 20-15.
1:26:49
SPEAKER_01: Cameron led off with an elite four and missed.
1:26:52
SPEAKER_01: Cliff called the same Elite Shotguns 4 and crushed it, cutting Cameron's lead to one point, 21-20.
1:27:01
SPEAKER_01: Cameron smashed a Remington 3 to lead by 5.
1:27:04
SPEAKER_01: Cliff decided to go for Broke and called the Rhino Choke 7.
1:27:08
SPEAKER_01: Crushing it, he took the lead 28-25.
1:27:12
SPEAKER_01: Cliff and Cameron traded Remington 3s, leaving the difference unchanged.
1:27:17
SPEAKER_01: So coming into the final pair with a three-point lead, Cliff called another Remington 3 and crushed it to bring his lead to seven points.
1:27:25
SPEAKER_01: Cameron followed with a rhino choke seven for the win, but didn't connect, making Cliff Seibert the winner.
1:27:33
SPEAKER_01: In the third place game, George Gable and Cameron Hicks met up.
1:27:38
SPEAKER_01: At the turn, the score was 25-20 with George in the lead.
1:27:41
SPEAKER_01: After two pairs, the score was 34-29 with George still in the lead.
1:27:46
SPEAKER_01: With each player still having two pairs to shoot, George called the chromatic five and absolutely destroyed it, leaving Cameron down by 11 points.
1:27:55
SPEAKER_01: Cameron followed with a chromatic five of his own.
1:27:58
SPEAKER_01: His shot was on target and brought George's lead back to five points.
1:28:02
SPEAKER_01: However, George only needed the Remington three for the win, which he called and broke to seal the third place victory.
1:28:10
SPEAKER_01: In the level two championship game, Tristan Stubbs and Cliff Seibert shot it out.
1:28:15
SPEAKER_01: It was an exciting first half with both players being tied at 20 points each.
1:28:20
SPEAKER_01: However, the shooting conditions were very challenging.
1:28:22
SPEAKER_01: The heavy overcast made the sky quite dark, but not quite dark enough to get the full advantage of the field lighting.
1:28:29
SPEAKER_01: Tristan led off the second half with a chromatic five and failed to connect.
1:28:33
SPEAKER_01: Then Cliff followed with a Rhinochoke 7, which was tough to see and also failed to connect.
1:28:39
SPEAKER_01: Tied at 21, Tristan called the Rhinochoke 7 and to everyone's amazement, destroyed it.
1:28:45
SPEAKER_01: Cliff followed suit, but again failed to connect.
1:28:48
SPEAKER_01: Tristan called for another Rhinochoke 7 and once again destroyed it, bringing cheers from the crowd.
1:28:55
SPEAKER_01: That left Cliff down by 15 points, and he needed a Rhinochoke 7 just to stay in the game.
1:29:01
SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately came up short once again, making Tristan Stubbs our level 2 Tap Gun Champion by a score of 37 to 23.
1:29:11
SPEAKER_01: And that's the recap for the Tap Gun Shootout at the World Super Sporting Championships.
1:29:16
SPEAKER_01: Remember, you can check out the action for yourself at Official Make A Break on YouTube.
1:29:21
SPEAKER_01: And please remember to like and subscribe.
1:29:23
SPEAKER_01: That's all for now.
1:29:24
SPEAKER_01: Back to you, Jason.
1:29:26
SPEAKER_01: That's it for this week, folks.
1:29:28
SPEAKER_07: Hey, remember, take someone new shooting, take them to a tournament, show them how much fun this sport is.
1:29:34
SPEAKER_07: Um, and also don't forget to patronize our sponsors.
1:29:38
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1:29:40
SPEAKER_07: Check them out on this outro that Toby Tomplay did for us.
1:29:43
SPEAKER_07: Thank you, Toby.
1:29:44
SPEAKER_07: And until next week, can't wait to catch y'all back here for part two on the Dead Pear Podcast.
1:29:51
SPEAKER_04: We'll see you next time on the Dead Pear Podcast.
1:29:54
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