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Finding Hope and Purpose after Prison: The William Sansing Story · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:04
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
0:07
Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
0:10
nightmares that set yourself free.
0:13
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:15
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
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These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, there's some
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humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
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something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
0:29
built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back,
0:34
nightmare success in and out. Listeners, this is where you
0:37
come from. What happens when your worst
0:39
fear becomes your reality? How do you adapt, survive,
0:42
overcome? Set yourself free?
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Don't forget to follow, subscribe, share, like, comment.
0:48
All those things help the show folks.
0:51
I am really excited about my guests because he's a guy that
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I've been following and I see all the good works he does.
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I'm honored to have him on the show.
1:00
It's Doctor William Sansing and he's he's a man of all seasons.
1:06
But it's amazing what kind of things that he's been able to do
1:12
post prison. He has over more than two
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decades post justice involvement as an advocate for people with
1:20
disabilities, people directly impacted by the legal system,
1:22
and people with substance use disorders.
1:25
He received a doctor of philosophy and counselor
1:29
education, school counseling and guidance services and sociology
1:33
for the Mississippi State University.
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He he has a book, he's a author. Also, he has a book called
1:39
Beyond Prison, Finding Second chances through Grace,
1:43
Resilience and Community Recounts an upstanding church
1:48
going citizen with a three-year stint wire fraud who became a
1:53
licensed counselor, educator in Prison Reform advocate.
1:56
I can't wait to jump into all this with William.
1:59
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Tell em Brent from Nightmare Success.
2:39
Success sent you. William Sansing welcome in.
2:45
Thank you for being here. How are you?
2:48
I'm great. Thank you for the honor of just
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having the opportunity to talk and share.
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And you know, I have to admit, as you were reading some of
2:59
that, I'm like, who is this guy he's talking about?
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Well, I got to tell you, you, you, you know, I've, I'm always,
3:06
I'm, I'm such a big, you know, part of this show is breaking
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the narrative of, you know, the nightmare success story of, of,
3:13
you know, dealing with your worst nightmare.
3:15
And then I think one of the hardest things that people don't
3:18
realize when they go through having to go to prison, you
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know, they go through the, the embarrassment, the shame and
3:25
everything that happens and you go to prison, but nobody really
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knows how difficult it is to get back into society.
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And I, one of the things I really like about this show, and
3:34
this goes into 435 prisons across the United States, is
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that there is hope out there and people do break narratives.
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It's hard, it's real hard 'cause you're, you know, you're
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tattooed from, from this point forward the rest of your life,
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but you got to figure out how to do it.
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And I think that's what's so inspiring about your story is
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you, you went through all that and, and, and you got out and
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you found a passion to really help people.
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But I, I, I'm curious, William, where all that came from?
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What was life like for you growing up as a kid?
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Oh gosh, if we step back into that space, I had about as
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idealistic stereotypical laid really good foundations in
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childhood as you'll find for a you know, for a guy growing up
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in the South. I grew up on a pretty large
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family farm and agricultural business.
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And you know, and, and refer to this sum in the book you
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mentioned that, you know, I I grew up, I was exposed to a lot
4:41
of opportunities at a very early age.
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All my friends work for our family.
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We had a lot of activities, you know, we had a livestock farm
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and, and, and we raised, we raised, you know, we raised the
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products for feed. And then we had our family had a
5:00
small meat processing plant that had a retail outlet.
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And it wasn't, it wasn't a huge thing, but it, it was sizeable
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in our community. So, you know, I was connected.
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I had a lot of good foundational things that, you know, laid a
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foundation for some outwardly looking in success even as a
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young person, you know. So that's interesting because
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you said the did you wouldn't when you were growing up.
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William, were you thinking that's something I'm going to
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do, I'm going to follow into the family business?
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Yeah, really, that's all I knew that life had to offer.
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Now, I did have, you know, what I considered a very traumatic
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thing that happened as a preteen?
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My mother was killed in a car accident.
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That is. Dramatic.
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That kind of changed a lot of things in inwardly for me and
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and I did you know, even though I am a textbook extrovert, I I
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love people. I draw my energy from people
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being around people and really enjoyed being in the family
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business. I never really considered doing
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anything outside of that. So when you.
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High school, went to college at Mississippi State University as
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an undergraduate, majored in something related to
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agriculture, went back home and, and that was a weird time in
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history. I know this isn't really the
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focus of, of, of your, you know, your show, but it was a weird
6:27
time in history where young people that wanted to remain in
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agriculture. There was a lot of programs to
6:33
help us do that and it what? Time period?
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Would that have been William? That would have been in the late
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70s, early 80s. So in when I turned almost to
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the day when I turned 21 years old, the Farmers Home
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Administration loaned me $450,000 to expand our family
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farm. And with almost no equity.
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Wow, what? You take all those good
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foundational things and then you expose a 21 year old to that.
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That's a lot. That's a lot.
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You put him in a family business that's that doesn't have a lot
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of stuff written down on a piece of paper about how it's going to
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function. Sure.
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And right, there's a lot of, a lot of written business plans on
7:15
a farm. I, I, you know, I, my, my
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grandpa had a, a milk farm and you know, all I knew was it was
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really cold in the morning, milk cows.
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That's about all I knew. But did you have siblings in
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this? I did.
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I did. My dad remarried a couple of
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years later. You know, one of the, one of my
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memorable moments in childhood is at the age of 14, I was my
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dad's best man at his wedding to marry my, you know, my, for all
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practical purposes, my mother, you know, stepmother and she had
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a son and a daughter and I had a brother and a sister and we
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became a blended family. Blended Family.
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You know, very much under the microscope of the community that
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kind of added to some of the inward pressure to make
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everything work on the farm. But.
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How big was the place where we grew up?
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Like what size was that was the town.
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Oh, the town, Yeah. Population 800.
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Yeah, little town, that's what I thought, yeah. 20 miles away
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from a, you know, a small southern college town that's,
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you know, that swells to at that time would swell to 30,000 when
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the students were here and 15,000 when they weren't but.
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What, what was it like for you, William, being from a small town
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like that, being on the farm, doing all that you knew was farm
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and going to Mississippi State? Well, my, my biological mother
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taught at Mississippi State. So I was exposed to Mississippi
8:45
State early in life. I didn't think much about it.
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That's just kind of what was expected at that time, you know,
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So went there, did that, you know, somehow we grew to a level
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where all my siblings and some of my other relatives that
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wanted to come back to the farm could come back to the farm.
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And, you know, I even at this stage of life and with all the
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things you mentioned, I'm still not sure what I'm good at
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sometimes, but I am good at pulling resources together and
9:16
kind of figuring things out sometimes.
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And I was able to pull together the resources where we grew and,
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and, and we had a lot of apparent success.
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But behind the scenes we were still operating on credit and
9:30
borrowing here and robbing Peter to pay Paul.
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And it grew to where in my mid 30s, I had access to as much as
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I wanted of a $25 million line of credit in the cattle
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industry. And then I had local lines of
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credit that ranged from half a million to $2,000,000.
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And it just spun out of control. So is that really, I mean, I
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know, you know, I we had a we had a family business and, and
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it got to be a national company. And, and I also think there's
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things that happen, William, where I know in my case where
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blind spots happen, you know, with risk and success, you know,
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you can create blind spots for yourself intentionally or
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unintentionally, because things get so there's so many different
10:19
lanes of it as it grows. But for you, did you, did you
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realize that that your world was getting in a in a Gray?
10:31
Area there were parts of me that did but as we grew strangely
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enough and, you know, I like to say I at this stage of life I
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identify with a couple of recovery communities.
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You know, substances weren't really my thing, but behaviors
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that fit all the criteria for gambling like behaviors fit me
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to a tee. And looking back I began to
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isolate more and more and think I can find a solution to this.
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I can do this I can leverage this I can make this work and
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and, and the more we grew the less I communicated with, you
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know, my siblings, my family, even my wife.
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You know, I just a little over 30 years ago when I began to get
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access to what I consider pretty big time money, you know and
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this is I guess the biggest blind spot.
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I had unlimited money to buy cattle but I didn't have enough
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resources to take care of them. So that's where the willingness
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to say hey, I can dip over here and take some money that's
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really supposed to go to buy cattle and I can buy other
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things with it. Yeah, and then you then you
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spill over into, hey, I'm doing all this.
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Maybe I deserve a better standard of living than I'm
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really earning. Yeah.
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And it just really spun out of control and and somewhere deep
12:00
inside you, I kind of got to the place where I kind of hope this
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thing does blow up. That'll be an easier exit than
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if I have to say I can't do this anymore.
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Y'all going to figure it out? Well that is interesting.
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So your thought was, is this is getting to be so?
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I'm so isolated, so stressed. I know what's going on.
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I don't know how long I can keep this juggling act going.
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It'd be just better if it just explodes.
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Yeah. I mean, is that what happened?
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Pardon. Is that what happened?
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Yeah, yeah. In December of 1995, I came to a
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place where I knew this was not sustainable.
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And, and I did at that point. So and, and, and strangely
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enough, and maybe this is part of denial, maybe this is part of
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addiction. Yeah.
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You know, I still thought everything would be OK.
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You know, we were extremely diversified, extremely for a
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family farm business. We were very vertically
12:55
integrated, and we had a lot of pieces that were sustainable for
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generations, you know? And I thought this will be OK,
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you know. And the family farm did survive.
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I mean, brothers, my brothers came up with some ideas to keep
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things going. And now, arguably, they have one
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of the best, most ideal farming enterprises in North
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Mississippi. That's great.
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Well, I'm curious it when your nightmare happened that you knew
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that it was all coming down? Was it a knock on the door?
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Was it was what how did how did it happen for?
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Because everybody's got a different story.
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Well, I mean, the truth is and, and, and to be honest, I haven't
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stepped back into those details in a long time.
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But the company I was doing business with was headquartered
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in Northeastern Colorado and they merged with another company
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and they did a, a, a, a head by head count of all the livestock
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inventory. And they showed up one day and
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said, we're fixing, we're going to start riding around and we're
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going to count cattle. And, you know, over a couple of
14:00
days, it was like, wait a minute, things are out of
14:03
control here. And, you know, then I was, and
14:09
then I, you know, and, and, and I had been dealing with some
14:12
depression and things like that with just isolating and denial,
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all those behaviors that go with any type of addiction.
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And you know, I was kind of given the option, I think you
14:24
need to go to a, to some type of treatment program for a period
14:28
of time or the sheriff can come get you and take you somewhere
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to reflect on this. And so that's a pretty easy
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choice to say. I think I'll go to a 20 day, 28
14:38
day type program. And, and you know, and part of
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your show, as I'm understanding it, is to talk about the
14:46
nightmare of these experiences. And then how do we find hope
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after? Sure.
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And the day I the day it became known.
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And this, I think I described this pretty well in the book,
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the day it became known. You know, I didn't think life, I
15:02
didn't think there was anything after that.
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In that moment I had lost all hope.
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And my which? Is dangerous when you lose hope.
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Oh yes, and interestingly enough, my wife, she had a 35
15:17
year career at Mississippi State and she was at work and I called
15:20
her and I said, look, some things have happened.
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You know, I'm not going to be here when you get home this
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afternoon. You know where all the important
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papers are. I love you, you'll be OK.
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But I don't have anything to offer any longer.
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And, and I went out in the woods with the gun and had a gun to my
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head and was, was ready to pull the trigger.
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And I heard a voice as plain as day.
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You know, I, I, I saw an image that kind of was like my mother,
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you know, and, and I'm not saying that's what I saw.
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I'm just saying that's what I heard.
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Maybe it was my brain, you know, playing tricks.
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I got no real explanation for that.
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But I heard a voice as plain as day say you can't do this.
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I've got too much work for you to do.
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Need to get your butt up. That's the britches off go in
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the house and there's going to be a better way.
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And I remember in that moment, you know, kind of resolving
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myself to, I don't know what the future holds, but I'm going to
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go in a different direction. And whatever it takes to stay in
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that direction, I'm willing to take those steps.
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And you know, you mentioned, you know, some of the things that
16:31
I've seemingly accomplished over the last 2830 years depending on
16:35
when you start the clock. I've got no explanation for a
16:39
single one of those things I have.
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Well, I, I think I, I think I understand though, William,
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because I, I was in your, I was in the exact same position and,
16:49
and, and took the exact same steps.
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She's, I didn't have a gun. I went to the car and, and
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either go run into a tree or let the car run.
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I think something happens when somebody hits that moment in
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their life and a lot of people don't thank God.
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But there's only two ways to go. You, you, you know, you, you
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roll up and in a fetal position or you just start stepping out.
17:11
But I think the difference is with the step out is, is that
17:15
you've decided you're stepping away from that victim idea to a
17:20
survivor idea and, and that makes you even feel different.
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I think I, I know when by the time I got to my place at
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Leavenworth, I had already experienced that I was, no
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matter what happened, I was going to survive it.
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And I think that's what you're talking about is whatever was
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you decided that day as you got back to the house, it was just
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going to be different. You're whatever happened going
17:44
forward, you were going to step through it.
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And I think that's something, you know, I don't know what that
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is. That intangible thing is to, to
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grab on. You know, there's the, the book
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of or the movie Ordinary People, where the one son holds on to
18:00
the boat and the other son. Let's go.
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You know, I don't know what makes that happen, but you held
18:07
on and thank God you held on because you, you've helped so
18:11
many people with your story and your experience and, and your
18:16
understanding and it what, what would have happened if that, you
18:19
know, that day, you know, ended that day.
18:21
It's, it's such a crazy thought. But when you step back into that
18:27
world saying this is going to be it.
18:28
How long did it take for you to go through that too?
18:32
Or you were actually standing at the gate and going in.
18:38
Going into prison, yeah. It take a.
18:45
While fifteen months. 15 months, that's that's a good while and
18:51
you got a you did a three-year sentence is that.
18:54
Correct. A 36 month sentence, yes.
18:57
How was it for you? Come at the prison time.
19:00
Yeah, for me and, and, and the the idea of what it was like for
19:06
me has shaped a lot of the things I've tried to do.
19:11
Given where I was largely mentally, I needed that time to
19:15
reset. And even my wife, who, you know,
19:19
you talk about making conscious choices.
19:22
She made a conscious choice to stay, for us to stay together
19:26
through this. Which is huge.
19:28
Yes, and a lot of people make a different choice.
19:32
That's OK. You know, one thing I've learned
19:35
is that, you know, if if people make a choice toward recovery,
19:41
whatever that means, I just believe the forces of the
19:44
universe will honor that. So even if my wife had made a
19:47
different choice, I think given the think, the choices we made
19:51
carried us both in a different direction.
19:53
So. But you asked, how was it for
19:56
me? And even as painful as it is, my
19:59
wife will say, and we're looking for ways to tell our story
20:02
together at this stage of life. Yeah.
20:04
Because of her position, she's been less willing to step out
20:08
there up until now, but she's retired.
20:10
So we're looking for that. But she will say I needed that
20:16
time to heal. So for me, you know, and, and
20:20
this you know, to I guess to to try to answer your question
20:24
completely, they promised me a low level security institution,
20:30
you know, which a lot of us white collar folks get to go to
20:33
deeply to start out. But for reasons I still have
20:36
never gotten an answer to, they sent me to Atlanta Penitentiary
20:39
Complex to start. Wow, William, I did not know
20:43
that about your story. Yeah, I.
20:45
Didn't read that. Yes.
20:48
OK. So you.
20:50
Know something new? Wow.
20:52
That was like, you know, and if you've watched the movie
20:54
Shawshank Redemption, I felt like my first night there was
20:57
very much like Andy's first night in Shawshank.
21:01
And, and really I didn't get my designation until a few days
21:05
before I was supposed to self surrender, which the idea of
21:08
self surrender to me is like one of these, like so many of the
21:11
things that seem like disconnects and like, OK, you've
21:14
told me I've got to be removed from society, but you're going
21:17
to trust me to go home and 30 days later show up where you
21:21
tell me to show up. That makes perfect sense.
21:24
But anyway, so I, as it worked out, our accountant's son was a
21:30
probation officer. So I called him, I think that
21:33
Wednesday or Thursday before I was supposed to self surrender
21:37
and said, Stephen, they hadn't told me where to go.
21:39
I said, where do I go? And he, he, he said, give me a
21:42
minute, Mr. William, and let me see what I can find out.
21:44
And he, he looks up and he says, well, I don't understand this,
21:48
but this says for you to self surrender to the Atlanta
21:51
Penitentiary. Oh man.
21:53
And I'm like, wow. And so I show up there that day
21:58
and at that receiving and, and I do give a kind of a detailed,
22:02
you know, recount of this in in. The book.
22:05
That the the guy says we ain't, we ain't got no sensing on the
22:11
list for today. And I said, well, I tell you
22:13
what. I'll go home.
22:15
When you get it figured out, I'll come back.
22:19
And he says that people don't show up here looking for the
22:22
local McDonald's. Come on in, come over here, you
22:30
know, and and we'll get you where you supposed to be at some
22:34
point in the future, you know, and so I go in and know very
22:38
little and my first night was pretty dramatic.
22:47
You know, if a fight broke out, somebody was 10 days away from
22:50
going home and over a card game, you know, somebody Shanks
22:56
somebody else, they lock us down.
22:58
I'm scared to death. And, and, and, and actually a,
23:04
a, a, a, a black, a black man larger than me comes by and says
23:10
I'm from the Christian community and we're going to take care of
23:13
you until you learn how to take care of yourself.
23:15
Wow. And I don't know if it's because
23:17
I was obviously the whitest guy in the, you know, in the pod or
23:21
in the area or in the dorm, You know that they knew, hey, this
23:24
guy. He needs some help.
23:26
He didn't look like he's been here before.
23:28
Yeah. So, you know, and this gets
23:31
ahead of our self. But, you know, I've kind of
23:33
learned over the years how to, and I wish there was a better
23:35
word for this leverage. The fact that when I step in a
23:38
room, I know I'm one of the last people, folks think, hey, that
23:43
guy's been to prison. I wish.
23:44
I wish we didn't have those stereotypes.
23:46
I wish we didn't have those labels.
23:47
You know, my standard answer usually is, yeah, I bet you
23:50
don't think I have any tattoos either.
23:54
And then they say, yeah, you'd be right.
23:56
And I say, well, you'd be wrong. Let me tell you my tattoo
23:58
stories. So.
23:59
But anyway, back to, you know, so, so it was, you know, those
24:03
weeks in Atlanta weren't what I expected, but that that
24:08
community did. I remember thinking when that
24:12
gentleman said that, And I know people could hear that story and
24:15
think, golly, that could have gone a lot worse.
24:17
You know, we see on TV these and and that's true.
24:19
It could help, you know, man, I was desperate.
24:22
I was like, you know, pretty much anybody that would bring me
24:25
in and teach me how to survive in this.
24:27
I'm I'm glad to connect, you know, and, and I and I remember
24:33
thinking in my brain and having a physical feeling that this is
24:38
what community is supposed to be like, right?
24:41
You know, you asked about my upbringing.
24:43
I grew up in also in kind of a stereotypical Southern religious
24:48
environment and we talked about community and church and all
24:51
that kind of stuff. And, you know, currently I, I
24:54
struggle with organized religion in some ways.
24:56
And I think a lot of us that have traveled these roads second
24:59
guess a lot of things. I've just started reading a new
25:02
book titled Why can't, why can't church be more like an, A, a
25:06
meeting or something like that, you know, But anyway, so I was
25:10
there for a period of time and then, and then I did get
25:13
transferred to Maxwell Air Force Base, which was the low level,
25:17
you know, camp type thing. And, and, you know, and, and
25:19
those of us that have done time in those environments, sometimes
25:23
people talk about how easy it was.
25:26
But for me, I found some elements being there more
25:29
difficult than being at the other place because I had no
25:35
fence. You know, I, I worked for the
25:38
Air Force for 20 something months, you know, and you know,
25:44
and I don't know, maybe this shouldn't be retold in the
25:46
public space, but you know, I was, I drove a truck for the
25:51
military for part of my time. You know, I left every morning
25:54
at 6:00, hauled military supplies to another Air Force
25:57
Base as long as I was back by 4:00 in the afternoon, Nobody
26:01
got to have been out of shape. And you know, and while you know
26:05
your, your question was how was it for me, that time gave me the
26:08
time I needed to reset. That's really interesting
26:13
because you know, and and I think it also while you're
26:16
resetting, you know, William, being put in an environment like
26:21
that Atlanta penitentiary, you also had to figure out, OK, wow,
26:26
I'm in the deep end. I'm just going to have to swim.
26:28
I got to adapt, you know, I and I think that's something that,
26:34
you know, you learn a lot of different things when you go
26:37
through what we've gone through, But you know, your perspectives
26:41
change, you know, you know, I'm not the same person I was before
26:45
I went in and I, I think for the good because, you know, there's
26:48
so many things I look at now and a lot more grateful.
26:52
You know, I just appreciate moments in time, you know, with
26:56
family and that which I did before.
26:57
But I really, you know, think I'm glad I'm here.
27:00
But William, when you were getting close to the door,
27:04
getting out, what were you thinking about?
27:06
Like what was your life? What were you thinking in your
27:09
mind? What's my world going to be like
27:12
out there? Had you thought or contemplated
27:14
how you were going to re enter? Because you you accomplished a
27:17
lot. So that I'm interested on how in
27:19
the world that all happened for you and your brain.
27:21
And again, you, you use the word grateful.
27:24
Yeah. You know, the way I usually
27:26
introduce myself at a recovery meeting or, you know, I, I work
27:29
at a treatment center, so I'm on the weekends and I try to be
27:33
consistent in introducing myself and talking about, I got no
27:37
explanation for the opportunities I've had over the
27:40
last 28 or 30 years, depending on when you start a clock.
27:43
And I don't know what gratitude feels like for everybody else.
27:46
I just know what it feels like for me.
27:47
And most days it feels like my chest is going to explode.
27:51
Well, and, and, and I know my prison experience is it may not
27:57
be the norm for, for a lot of folks.
28:00
And we, you know, in today's world, we talk a lot about re
28:03
entry and when does re entry begin and things like that.
28:06
I think RE entry begins when you're charged, you know, or you
28:10
know RE ideally. 100% agree. Re ideally re entry should begin
28:15
the day you're arraigned. If you are, you know, but but
28:21
very little about my prison journey fits the norm or the
28:25
narrative that and sometimes I think it doesn't fit the
28:27
narrative that our, you know, advocacy community wants to hear
28:32
because it doesn't my entry, my re entry.
28:36
And to answer your question, my wife and I were working with a
28:40
therapist to see if we were going to stay together.
28:44
You know, this therapist happened to work at Mississippi
28:46
State University and I would give almost anything if I could
28:50
find her or her family to thank them again.
28:53
But she asked me, this may have been a little unethical, but she
28:56
asked me in the middle of a session one day, what are you
28:58
going to do when all this mess is over?
29:00
And I said, I don't know. You know, I hadn't lost a, you
29:04
know, a six figure lifestyle and was working at the local
29:10
McDonald's. That's a different.
29:12
Glad to have that job, right? You know, And I said, I don't
29:16
know, Doctor Lee, I guess I'm going to work in flip
29:18
hamburgers, you know, I don't know.
29:20
And she said, well, I think you'd make a halfway decent
29:23
therapist. Wow, so she suggested that.
29:26
She suggested it, and I said, well, that's a nice idea.
29:29
I said, I really think you're crazy.
29:32
I can't go to school. I got no money.
29:34
We're broke. Lawsuits everywhere.
29:36
Everybody's suing everybody. You know, at that point, my
29:38
denial was still pretty thick. I had no idea I was going to end
29:41
up going to prison. Yeah.
29:43
And I said, there's I can't go to grad school.
29:45
And she said, if I recommend you, they will accept you.
29:49
And I said, well, OK then. And we got up right in the
29:52
middle of a therapy session, walked off cross campus.
29:56
She we went to the department head of the counseling program.
29:59
And she said, Doctor Hosey, I'm recommending this guy for grad
30:02
school. And he said, well, OK, if you
30:04
recommend him, so long as he meets the requirements, we'll
30:07
take him. Another man was sitting there
30:10
and he said, well, I'm the I'm head of the rehabilitation
30:13
counseling program. I've got a training grant.
30:17
If you'll, if you'll choose rehab as your focus, the
30:20
training grant will pay for your books, pay for your tuition and
30:23
pay you $500 a month stipend. And I said sign me.
30:27
Sign me up. I didn't have a clue what rehab
30:31
counseling was, you know, and then that fall I started classes
30:38
and was 2/3 of the way through my I was very transparent.
30:41
We told him he got some stuff going on, you know, thinking we
30:43
end up with probate by the end. I knew, you know, shortly after
30:46
that I knew something was, you know, So by the time to to do
30:50
classes I need I said, you know, OK, you know, got some stuff
30:53
going on. Don't think it'll be life
30:55
interrupting, but just want y'all to know.
30:58
Well, then when I got sentenced, you know which I ended, I
31:01
actually had an upper departure because the, the, the probation
31:04
office recommended 24 months. The judge went to 30.
31:08
And then because we objected to that, he gave me an upward
31:11
departure because I should have taken better care.
31:13
Of my family. Which is true, but it was like
31:16
in the moment, like what in the hell is?
31:17
Going on, what just happened? You know, but anyway, so I, I
31:21
went to the graduate coordinator who's her name's Doctor Luby,
31:25
one of my biggest advocates over these years, Doctor Luby.
31:29
I said, Doctor Luby. This didn't work out like I
31:31
thought it would. I'm going to be gone for a
31:36
while. I guess y'all are going to
31:37
dismiss me from the program and she said Nah.
31:40
She said. We're just going to write it up
31:42
as on the job training. I love it and that is on the job
31:46
training. She said you go do your time.
31:50
These are some good people, William.
31:52
Oh, I got no explanation. Oh man.
31:56
I know it doesn't fit the narrative, you know, but so I
32:00
went, withdrew from my classes, you know, went home, got my
32:05
affairs in order, went and did my time and came back and really
32:09
picked up right where I was. And when I graduated, they found
32:12
me a job on campus. I worked at Mississippi State
32:15
for 12 years. That's the only reason that I
32:18
was able to do what really was a dual PhD program, which, again,
32:22
was not planned. It's just like if you work
32:24
there, you can take some classes for free.
32:26
And some friends said, OK, you know, so that's where I worked
32:30
in disability Policy Research and program evaluation and.
32:37
I think it's fascinating, you know, and I I think there's
32:40
something to you being so I mean, you can't help you know,
32:46
William, but I know when we talked on the phone, you're very
32:49
you're so open and vulnerable just to just lay it out there.
32:52
But I think there's something to that when people, when they have
32:57
that, whatever that is, that thing you have, they want to
33:00
help and you know, it's leading with it instead of hiding it.
33:06
And you're so here's who I am, here's what's happening.
33:11
And there's I, I talk to people a lot because of this show that
33:15
call me and say, you know, what do you I'm getting ready to go
33:17
in or this or that or I'm, I got out.
33:19
And I, one of the things I say to him is, is that it's going to
33:23
be hard no matter what, but get really comfortable with your
33:28
story, you know, because you need to own your story so that
33:34
you can tell it. So somebody else doesn't tell it
33:36
for you. There'll be all kinds of people
33:37
that can Google or whatever, But when you go to a job or you do
33:40
whatever, be able to tell your story because I'm sure you have
33:43
a story that that is you. And I think there's something,
33:47
there's a nugget of wisdom there, William, that you
33:49
probably aren't even because you are who you are.
33:52
But I'm sure when those people were sitting there thinking this
33:54
is a guy, I can see him helping people just because I can feel
33:59
that vibe. And you were so open with what
34:01
was going on that that person just walked you over and there
34:06
you were. That's crazy.
34:08
I love it. I love that story.
34:10
I it's well, you know what? You're saying is hard for me to
34:13
step into, but I mean, you're not the first person that's told
34:16
me that. You know, like I told you, I've
34:18
I've worked for the last six years.
34:21
It arguably the largest residential drug and alcohol
34:24
treatment program in Mississippi.
34:27
And the nurses have told me before said there is a different
34:32
energy on campus when you work on a Sunday and when you don't,
34:36
you can just walk up to a tense situation and it immediately de
34:41
escalates and I don't understand that.
34:43
I just know as long as I can, I'm going to keep stepping into.
34:47
Whatever, keep stepping in and then maybe we could clone
34:50
William, but. I don't know that we need to do.
34:52
That so William, all this was going on and I know you've been
34:59
on numerous boards and president of this and that where you are
35:05
now are are and and you know, with your wife and is, is
35:11
everything because I feel like you're following your passion of
35:14
what you like doing and and would there be anything that
35:18
you'd change in this weird, strange environment of how this
35:23
all happened? I really wouldn't you know that,
35:31
you know, you know, not to step too much in a in a faith mindset
35:36
or anything, but you know, I telling stories seemed to work
35:39
for a guy that lived about 2000 years ago.
35:41
So I think we learned best. We connect through stories.
35:44
So you saying that reminds me of a story when our daughter got
35:48
married, you know, and, and again, you're right, we have
35:52
been very open, very transparent.
35:54
This is who we are. We only moved 15 miles from
35:57
where I grew up. So, you know, we we didn't run
36:00
from our story, didn't know exactly what it was going to be
36:03
like or what the telling of it would be.
36:05
But she got married in a church that was very, very helpful to
36:08
us and provided a faith community that supported us
36:12
through this whole thing. And one of my best friends, I
36:16
overheard him saying he was saying, you know, our daughter's
36:19
name, Jessica. And he said, man, Jessica was
36:21
such a pretty bride, said, you know, this is a sweet wedding,
36:24
you know, and all the emotions that come with it.
36:27
But he said, don't you wish she hadn't had to go through what
36:30
she did when her dad went to prison?
36:33
You know, and I, and we're close enough friends, I could say how.
36:36
Old would she have been when you went to prison?
36:38
She was a 12, you know, so she turned 13 while I was there,
36:42
which was a tough time for her, you know, I mean, her dad not
36:46
there when she becomes a teenager, that was tough.
36:48
And she's got her own stuff to work through from.
36:50
There you. Know.
36:51
But I told my friend, I said, you know, John, I heard what you
36:54
said and I really appreciate it. But if I had to risk my daughter
36:59
not being who she is today and my son not being who he is today
37:04
and me not being who I am today, I would sign up for what we went
37:09
through. Wow, that's a that's a that's a
37:12
deep statement because you guys went through a lot as a family.
37:16
You. Know, I tell people in my
37:18
therapy practice and a lot of my therapy work is really kind of
37:23
simple stuff, you know, I mean, it just is, you know, but
37:26
anyway, we play these what if games.
37:29
Why do you why do you say it's simple?
37:32
Well. Because it I'm not sure it comes
37:35
from some deep theory that I learned in grad school, you
37:38
know, which that's another topic.
37:40
But I struggled with theories in sociology and counseling because
37:43
I was a non traditional student had had a lot of life.
37:46
And then after you come back from prison, you do see life
37:49
different. You know, it's like, oh, how
37:51
does this theory fit with just practical stuff?
37:54
But you know, I tell people we play what if games, you know,
37:57
what if I'd have made this choice or what if I'd have made
37:59
this or what if I'd have done this?
38:01
And, and I tell a story about my wife, you know, I told you she's
38:04
my wife has an identical twin sister.
38:06
And they, they fit a lot of the stereotypes with twins.
38:10
And they they were kind of a novelty at in college and they
38:14
both had all job offers at the Walmart headquarters in Arkansas
38:19
right out of college. And sometimes my wife will get
38:22
overwhelmed even to this day when she gets overwhelmed about
38:25
our journey, she has permission. Not that I necessarily have to
38:28
give it to her, but to say, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed
38:31
about our journey, you know, and I just need to talk about it.
38:34
But she'll say, if I'd have taken that job at Walmart, I'd
38:37
probably be a millionaire together and all that.
38:41
And I say, you know, maybe you would, honey, we don't know.
38:44
All we know is life would be different.
38:47
Yeah, life would be different. Different is, and that's what I
38:50
tell people when we, you know, I try to get my clients to
38:53
practice mindfulness where we try not to bring too much of the
38:57
past into the present. We try not to project the
38:59
present into the future, right, You know?
39:02
I draw a. Lot I draw a lot from recovery
39:05
principles. I think recovery principles make
39:07
life better for everybody. I I totally agree, William,
39:11
because all you can deal is with the present.
39:12
You can't do anything about the past.
39:14
Right. You're you hope for a good
39:17
future. I was curious like with you said
39:20
the the the family went on with their business with the farm and
39:25
did all the family kind of stay together and and work their way
39:28
through the whole. Thing, well they did their
39:32
version of working through things and I had to do my.
39:34
Version OK, I mean. Just in truth, and maybe this
39:37
will be a nugget for other people, you know, the system
39:40
doesn't care if the family gets along or not.
39:43
No they don't. No, they don't.
39:45
And I think that's really unfortunate, Yes.
39:48
And again, what you know, in my ideal head, the system should be
39:52
more about reconciliation than punishment.
39:55
Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you think about, you
39:57
know, William, that all the limits you have, like when
40:00
you're in prison, you know, they give you certain minutes that
40:02
you have to be able to talk to people.
40:05
You have so many minutes a month.
40:06
You you you know, you got five federal.
40:09
It was $0.05 a minute to type, you know, you but all those
40:13
things, it was really limiting then.
40:14
Then I had, you know. You know, my wife would come
40:16
every weekend. It was a four and a half hour
40:18
drive, but they would limit how much time they could visit.
40:22
You know, the you only, you only had some and they counted.
40:24
You know, one hour is 2 points. And it was just, it was all in
40:28
on a limiting thing where I always thought to myself, how
40:31
crazy is that? If we should be pushing as many
40:34
family members as we can to stay connected and it's exactly the
40:37
opposite. Doesn't make any sense
40:39
whatsoever. Well, to answer your question,
40:43
since it was a family business and I've heard different tales
40:46
of this, probably won't ever know the full truth and don't
40:49
have to know. But I'm told that you know, the
40:54
people that really wanted me to experience punishment became
40:58
afraid that I was getting so much support.
41:01
We got to let the judge know the full impact of this guy's
41:04
choices. So, so my, my family, my mom and
41:07
dad and my grandparents and my brothers and my brother in
41:11
law's, you know, were asked to write victim impact statements.
41:15
Wow. And that's where the extra six
41:18
months came from. Wow.
41:20
Now, now they say they were kind of tricked into doing that,
41:23
which I don't doubt. And it's not something we've had
41:25
to go back and rehash. I don't have to know.
41:28
You know, they made the best choices they knew to make to
41:31
survive. I mean, you know, everybody went
41:34
to bed one day thinking everything was fine, woke up the
41:36
next day, all hell broke loose, you know?
41:40
So to answer your question, yes, they went on and some you know,
41:44
another part of our community stepped in to help them survive.
41:49
That's really interesting. I'll be go go ahead and wait.
41:53
I'm. In that did create a lot of
41:55
tension, you know I'm. Sure.
41:57
You know, and and then I've. The business is tough anyway.
42:00
I I grew up in a family business, so yeah.
42:02
It's tough. You know, it's always about
42:04
who's the lead singer. It's like, you know, the Bee
42:06
Gees or the Fleetwood Mac or The Beatles, Like who gets to sing
42:10
the lead song? You know, it's it's a funny
42:12
thing to be in a family business before we I want to ask you
42:17
another a question. But before we do that, I want to
42:19
recognize the white collar support group.
42:21
Both William and I are are very familiar with the White Collar
42:24
Support Group. Nymer Success Podcast is
42:26
sponsored by the White Collar Support Group, the world's first
42:28
support group devoted to people navigating the white collar
42:31
criminal justice system. I'm a member of the White Collar
42:34
Support Group and I can tell you this is a bunch of people who
42:37
help each other through the criminal justice journey for
42:39
free. Whether you're just starting
42:41
your journey or you've made it through to the other side, this
42:43
is a great space for you. You can join us on Zoom Mondays,
42:47
7:00 PM Eastern Time, 4:00 PM Pacific.
42:50
For information, go to prisonist.org.
42:52
That's prisonist.org. Start here.
42:55
So, William, I'm just so I, I, I love talking to someone who has
43:02
been through all the stuff that you've been through.
43:04
You have your passion. You're doing the things that
43:06
make you feel like you and feel good because you're using
43:10
everything that you are, your whole soul helping other people
43:14
because you've walked in so many steps that they can identify
43:18
with that. It's not you're not reading it
43:20
out of a book. You're you're walking with them
43:23
with this because you've walked these paths.
43:26
If you think about it. For the listeners out there,
43:30
what do you think is your greatest take away through all
43:33
this that you've experienced? That no matter what you are
43:39
experiencing in life, there is a community somewhere that can
43:45
help support you through it. Wow, that's a great take away.
43:50
You know, you know the, the experience in prison where you
43:55
know, someone said I'm from the Christian community, we're going
43:57
to support you. You know, I got an opportunity
43:59
to do some work in northern Uganda with former with, with
44:03
females who have been trafficked or in, you know, kidnapped his
44:07
children and trained his guerrilla soldiers.
44:09
And, and I wondered, how can these women heal from this?
44:12
And, and I always struggle telling this story because I'm
44:15
afraid especially females will think I'm grading trauma and I'm
44:20
not. That's not my intent.
44:22
Everybody's trauma is their trauma.
44:24
How it affected you, how your body holds that trauma is what
44:27
you've got to work through. At the same time, these young
44:30
women had experienced traumas that most of us as as hard as
44:33
our prison experience what may have been.
44:35
It does not equal what these women had been through.
44:38
And I found some of the happiest, most resilient, most
44:41
joyful people I've ever been around because they were part of
44:44
a judgement and shame free community where they could talk
44:46
about whatever they needed to talk about and nobody was going
44:49
to throw them under the bus. And to me that that is that is
44:53
the key. That was my motivation to write
44:55
the book. Just begin to get those thoughts
44:57
out there. Now, you did ask me a question
45:00
earlier that I want to be sure to look back to about how
45:04
navigating this we get comfortable with our stories.
45:08
Yes. And I, I don't remember in the
45:10
moment exactly how you ask it, but I just want to be, I want to
45:14
be sure that your listeners hear this part of me dealing with my
45:18
story as comfortable as I say I am.
45:21
Yeah. Part of that tension never goes
45:23
away. Last fall, I stumbled into an
45:27
opportunity. I retired from higher Ed in, you
45:30
know, in 2020. Last fall I had an opportunity
45:33
to step back into higher end and it I have an online position and
45:39
it has been as great of attention as I've experienced
45:43
since I left prison. How do I let my new colleagues,
45:46
which we have a faculty of about 70 or so, how do I let them know
45:51
who I really am versus what I think their expectations are?
45:56
Because it's really hard when you or a new faculty and then
45:59
the next faculty meeting, people say, OK, who's who's
46:02
accomplished something this week?
46:04
And you just released your book Beyond Prison Finding Second
46:07
chances. That's right.
46:08
Great community, you know, You know, and you know, you're like,
46:13
I don't think I'm going to tell everybody that I just released a
46:16
book, you know? But what I have found is, is
46:21
I've trusted the forces of the universe to bring those
46:24
relationships that are necessary.
46:26
And I've probably shared now with probably 20% of my
46:29
colleagues and nobody has rejected me.
46:33
I'm really glad you brought that up because I think that's
46:36
probably one of the biggest things that I get asked about
46:41
William from people who have gotten out.
46:43
How do I talk about it? Like, you know, if I met my
46:46
kids, you know, soccer game and they don't know so much.
46:50
I mean, where do I fit that it all these things and what you
46:54
just said there, you kind of let it roll.
46:57
You find your moments and places and things that that you can
47:01
share and and then it gets there.
47:05
And, you know, another part of that is I have had a lot of
47:10
apparent successes, you know, and if you told me 30 years ago
47:13
my wife would be at a place where we can retire reasonably,
47:17
comfortably, financially, I never would have believed it,
47:20
right? You know, I get to choose how,
47:25
where, when I tell my story, some of our friends in on this
47:31
journey, they don't have that. Freedom.
47:33
They've got to tell it the next job interview to try to.
47:35
Get don't look like you and I don't have that freedom.
47:39
And that's another thing, you know, and you and and something
47:42
else I would suggest people do that are on this journey is and
47:45
and this is borrowing from Brene Brown's work.
47:48
If you or anybody, any of your listeners are familiar with
47:50
Brené Brown, you know, I'm a big Brené Brown fan.
47:53
You don't have to be around me long in my counseling work to
47:56
know that she talks about the importance of us finding our
47:59
core values, not superficially finding the real values.
48:05
And she says it, nobody can live more than two or three.
48:08
We think we can have five or ten.
48:10
We can't. I mean, we can be attuned to
48:12
those, but we can only live two or three.
48:15
And it took me a lot of work but I identified MY2 core values
48:20
which are faith and service and even.
48:23
And that's what you do. Some people in the recovery
48:25
world question how talk about values.
48:28
I believe even in our addiction, even in our poor choices, we are
48:32
trying to live those core values.
48:35
We may not have the skills, we may not have the language, we
48:37
may have trauma that's piled stuff up in our life.
48:40
I look back in my choices and and I don't mean religious
48:43
faith, I mean just faith that people are doing the best they
48:46
can. And if we provide an environment
48:49
for them to flourish, they will more oftentimes did not
48:52
flourish. But if we, you know, if we
48:54
wanted to build a system that perpetuated problems, we would
48:59
build what we have now. Exactly.
49:01
You know why? You know, we we talk about in
49:04
recovery work, that crazy definition of insanity, doing
49:07
the same. Thing the same thing over and
49:08
over, expected a different. Result what in the world are our
49:12
public policymakers thinking that you know, I mean, it's
49:18
like, you know, OK then to me like, OK, let's just admit it.
49:21
We want to warehouse folks, yes. We just want to punish folks,
49:25
right? We don't really care about.
49:27
Rehabilitation. You know, but if we want to
49:30
build a system that works, you know, and I think finding our
49:34
values is an important part. And yes, faith, faith in
49:37
humanity and service drive a lot of things I try to do.
49:42
Yeah, and and I think the other thing that you do, William, and,
49:45
and a lot of that snuffs out hope, you know, the way that you
49:49
get warehoused and the way that you get thrown back in the way
49:52
you can't find a place to live, a way you can't get a job, you
49:55
snuff out the hope. And I think what you're doing
49:58
and how you do it is, is you're building hope back into people
50:01
that believe that they can take a step, believe that they can
50:03
get through it, believe that they can survive.
50:05
And that goes a long ways because, you know, life's tough
50:09
and and hope is a is a big fuel for your tank.
50:14
And, and, but the thing getting back to to you is, I think the
50:18
reason why you're so effective with it is, is that people
50:20
believe you because you, you have the way about you, but you
50:24
also had the experience. And I, I think that's a, a
50:26
perfect combination to be able to do things.
50:29
And then which leads me to everybody ought to get his book
50:33
beyond prison, finding second chances through grace,
50:37
resilience and community. And my gosh, isn't he talked
50:40
about that on this show. I mean, I, I can't wait to get,
50:44
I, I told William before I got on.
50:45
I, I, after I got reading everything, I went and purchased
50:49
the book. I can't wait to jump into it
50:51
'cause I think you're fascinating, William.
50:52
I, I, I think your, your dedication to service and, and
50:56
what you're doing is, is making such an impactful difference and
50:59
you've been doing it for years. So I hope you, hope you have the
51:02
fuel to keep going 'cause it's, it's an important thing.
51:06
And, and, and for me. Yeah, go ahead, William.
51:09
I had a pretty detailed physical the other day and one of my
51:12
doctors said well, I don't see any reason you can't keep doing
51:16
what you are doing now for another 10 years, he said.
51:18
Now I don't. Know why you'd want to?
51:34
Of grateful Homestead Financial lets me use this podcast and all
51:39
the fancy equipment here. I'm so thankful for that.
51:42
Anybody who's got home mortgage needs, it's Greg AFTDF.
51:44
He knows all that stuff. He can help you out.
51:47
My book's out there not even a success.
51:49
Go to it Amazon, like I said, the likes and the and the
51:54
subscriptions and that if you got any time, I know it's a
51:57
hassle, but go to Apple, leave a review.
52:01
It puts a show on Sarah's. Want to know anything about me?
52:04
It's brentcassidy.com. I spell it wrong.
52:07
It's with a Ty, not a DY, as I used to say when I was writing
52:12
my emails back and forth from prison.
52:13
Stay strong. I'll do the same.
52:16
Doctor William Sansing, thank you so much for being here
52:19
today. So much appreciated.
52:21
Thank you so much for the opportunity, and I think many of
52:25
the things you said toward me you can say about yourself.
52:28
Well, I appreciate that, William.
52:29
That means a lot coming from you.
52:31
Hang on for success in and out.