Latest / Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood / 139. Alice Crimmins - Mother on Trial

Transcript

139. Alice Crimmins - Mother on Trial · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

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Speaker 1: Hello, delicious friends, and welcome to Hooded What Now the
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Speaker 1: history podcast That's Not Your History Class with mayor host
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Speaker 1: Katie Charlewood, history harlot and reader of books. And in
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Speaker 1: just over two weeks, the history heard that herself shall
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Speaker 1: be on the stage in the Americas or the North Americas. Yes,
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Speaker 1: I'm eco parts excited and terrified at the moment. So
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Speaker 1: if you're not in an area in which my show
0:29
Speaker 1: is on, feel free to donate to my just in
0:32
Speaker 1: case fund, you know, just in case, just in case
0:36
Speaker 1: I need it. But if you are in an area
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Speaker 1: where my shows are on, buy your tickets. Get your
0:42
Speaker 1: tickets because Toronto has sold out, Pittsburgh has sold out,
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Speaker 1: but there are still tickets available left for Albany, Syracuse,
0:51
Speaker 1: what the other one? Los Angeles and Boston those are
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Speaker 1: the ones, that's them. They're all still available. Now if
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Speaker 1: you want to see me, get your tickets. Just get
1:01
Speaker 1: your tickets. Because I've had people message me about like
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Speaker 1: Pittsburgh and Toronto saying like, oh I wish I got
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Speaker 1: my tickets, I missed it, YadA YadA. Yes, now here's
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Speaker 1: the thing. I'm a person who always buys the stuff early. Anyway,
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Speaker 1: like just in case, because that's who I am as
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Speaker 1: a person, because I need to be organized, because I
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Speaker 1: am chaos, so I need the organization in my life. Now,
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Speaker 1: I know there's a million and one reasons why you
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Speaker 1: can't or won't purchase tickets in advance, Like, I get it.
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Speaker 1: But here's the thing from the other side of the curtain, right,
1:35
Speaker 1: here's the brass tax. You know. So when you have
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Speaker 1: a contract with a venue which exists, the venue exists
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Speaker 1: to make money typically, and so sometimes in that contract
1:46
Speaker 1: it will have a threshold of tickets like bums and
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Speaker 1: seats that you have to meet, and if you don't
1:51
Speaker 1: meet that threshold before a certain date, they can just
1:54
Speaker 1: cancel your show and not compensate you in any way.
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Speaker 1: Sometimes it can be like two weeks before, other can
2:00
Speaker 1: have even two days before. And so that is very
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Speaker 1: very stressful from the side because when you have to
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Speaker 1: try and push and fight to like sell those tickets,
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Speaker 1: it's hell. Like I have a cousin who buys all
2:15
Speaker 1: of her like event tickets either the day before or
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Speaker 1: the day of the event, and I swear to Christ,
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Speaker 1: oh my god, it stresses me out because I'm the
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Speaker 1: person who purchases away in advance because I have fomo obviously,
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Speaker 1: and also chaos, and also you're divergence, So like I
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Speaker 1: need this in my life. I need to be prepared,
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Speaker 1: and I just can't deal with it. But yeah, there's
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Speaker 1: a possibility that, like you could pay for travel and
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Speaker 1: accommodation and you get to the place you've traveled across
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Speaker 1: an ocean to another continent, and they could just cancel
2:48
Speaker 1: your show. And it doesn't take an economics professor to
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Speaker 1: understand that if something sells quickly, it has value supply
2:55
Speaker 1: and demand. And so if there's a demand for you,
2:59
Speaker 1: like you get invited back. So you get to see
3:02
Speaker 1: your favorite artists again. So your comedians, your musicians, your
3:07
Speaker 1: podcasters ding ding ding ding, like you be able to
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Speaker 1: see them more because they're more likely to come back
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Speaker 1: to your space, your area because they know they're gonna
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Speaker 1: get that that's sold there. Listen, I know what you're thinking.
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Speaker 1: You're thinking, Kittie, quite your GiB jabble, In fact me,
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Speaker 1: in fact you I will. But first we've got to
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Speaker 1: get our source on our sources are did she or
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Speaker 1: didn't she? The Case of Alice Crimins by Susan Amper,
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Speaker 1: The Alice Crimens Case by Denise no The Crimins Affair
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Speaker 1: Forgotten Queens of History by The Queen's Tribune, The Alice
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Speaker 1: Crimins Case by Kenneth G. Gross, and of course her
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Speaker 1: old favorites biography dot com and history dot Com. I
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Speaker 1: use it in comfortably good Late's begin. Now. Before I begin,
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Speaker 1: I am going to put in a content warning because
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Speaker 1: I am going to discuss child murder. So if this
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Speaker 1: isn't something you're comfortable hearing about, might want to exit
4:12
Speaker 1: stage left. Just mute this, let it play to the end.
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Speaker 1: It's fine, or you can just skip it and I
4:19
Speaker 1: will see you next time. Okay. So today's story is
4:25
Speaker 1: I wanted something from like the US, and I wanted
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Speaker 1: something from one of the areas at least close to
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Speaker 1: where I was going to be, and so this led
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Speaker 1: me to New York, New York City. It's always going
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Speaker 1: to happen, lads, It's always going to happen. On the
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Speaker 1: fourteenth of July nineteen sixty five, twenty six year old
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Speaker 1: mother of two, Alice Crimmins wakes up in her Cuba
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Speaker 1: Gardens apartment in Queens, New York. It's sometime between eight
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Speaker 1: and nine o'clock in the morning. She'd had a wee
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Speaker 1: bit of a lie in because she'd had some trouble
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Speaker 1: get and to sleep the night before, and so this
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Speaker 1: Wednesday morning, like nearly every other morning in her life,
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Speaker 1: she gets up, gets herself out of bed, and makes
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Speaker 1: her way into her children's room. But this morning is
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Speaker 1: not like every other morning, because when she steps inside,
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Speaker 1: her children are not in their beds. They're not even
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Speaker 1: in their room. Her first response was to call out Missy.
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Speaker 1: Missy was a nickname for her four year old daughter,
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Speaker 1: who was also called Alice. But Missy and her five
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Speaker 1: year old brother, Eddie Junior, they were not responding to
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Speaker 1: their mother's call. The children were not in their beds,
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Speaker 1: they were not in their room, and it seemed like
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Speaker 1: they weren't even within earshot of their mother. Sometime before,
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Speaker 1: Alice and her husband had installed a latch on the
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Speaker 1: door to the children's bedroom because Eddie he had a
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Speaker 1: habit of getting up for a midnight snack, and so
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Speaker 1: in order to ensure he wasn't going to go rummaging
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Speaker 1: through the kitchen. You don't want a kid going through
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Speaker 1: a kitchen in the middle of the night anyways, let alone.
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Speaker 1: In the nineteen sixties, safety regulations were not what they
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Speaker 1: are today, so they'd put the latch on. But here's
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Speaker 1: the thing. The door was not the only way in
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Speaker 1: and out of the bedroom. So in the kid's room
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Speaker 1: at the far side, there was this big window that
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Speaker 1: faced the front yard of the apartment complex. And not
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Speaker 1: only was this window wide open, but the screen had
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Speaker 1: been removed. She was convinced that she had closed the
6:44
Speaker 1: window and put on the screen because she was worried
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Speaker 1: about bugs getting into the bedroom. Because because it was
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Speaker 1: July in New York and in those warm summer nights,
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Speaker 1: bugs had a habit of getting into the rooms. So
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Speaker 1: here she was door latched, window open, and no kids.
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Speaker 1: Her children were gone, and Alice's first thought that this
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Speaker 1: was the work of their father, Eddie Senior, who had
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Speaker 1: been staying in a boarding house nearby. Alice Marie Burke
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Speaker 1: had married her high school sweetheart, Edmund Cribbins, when she
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Speaker 1: was nineteen and he was twenty two. Alice believed that
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Speaker 1: getting married to Eddie was going to be a step
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Speaker 1: towards her freedom. See, they both came from very strict
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Speaker 1: religious backgrounds because they're from like Irish Catholic, like strict
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Speaker 1: devout Irish Catholic. She had attended Saint Raymond's Convent, which
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Speaker 1: convent schools are. They are very much into doctrine and obedience,
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Speaker 1: and so she was controlled every minute of every day.
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Speaker 1: For her, her life wasn't just routine, it was a regime.
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Speaker 1: And she thought this was going to be her way
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Speaker 1: of gaining independence, and so she married her high school sweetheart.
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Speaker 1: Not long after, Edmund Michael or Eddie Junior was born
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Speaker 1: with Alice Marie or Missy. The following year. The family
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Speaker 1: had moved into the Regal Gardens apartments in Kew Garden's
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Speaker 1: Queen's where Alice's hopes of freedom and independence started to fade.
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Speaker 1: Eddie was out of the house more than he was
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Speaker 1: in it. He worked long hours, and when he wasn't working,
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Speaker 1: he was often out drinking with his pals, leaving Alice
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Speaker 1: to care for their two children day and night, all
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Speaker 1: by herself. And I know this is very much typical
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Speaker 1: of the era, this is the norm, but this whole situation,
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Speaker 1: it left Alice feeling lonely and neglected. She had married young,
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Speaker 1: and this man who had promised to sweep her off
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Speaker 1: her feet, he wasn't there, and instead of receiving support
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Speaker 1: and love and passion. She had a man who would
9:03
Speaker 1: rather be out drinking with his friends than spend time
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Speaker 1: with her. And she thought marriage was going to give
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Speaker 1: her more independence, not less of it, because she didn't
9:13
Speaker 1: really have a sense of self. She was a wife
9:17
Speaker 1: and a mother, and that's it, that's her label, that's
9:22
Speaker 1: her done. And she wanted something more than that, something else,
9:28
Speaker 1: And in a move that caused absolute scandal, she got
9:31
Speaker 1: a job as a cocktail waitress, just so that she
9:35
Speaker 1: had something that was hers, like getting a job as
9:39
Speaker 1: a mother outside the home. Like this was not the
9:43
Speaker 1: done thing for white women. Let's just be clear for
9:48
Speaker 1: white women, because women of color always had to work.
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Speaker 1: And this is even like a certain standard like farmers.
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Speaker 1: Everybody in the farm has a job, like but let's
10:01
Speaker 1: just yeah, typically in the city, white mothers weren't expected
10:07
Speaker 1: to go out and get a job like that. Wasn't
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Speaker 1: a thing like you could do like seamstress, work in
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Speaker 1: the house and things like that socially acceptable like employment.
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Speaker 1: But to go out and have a job as a
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Speaker 1: cocktail waitress, oh, that would raise eyebrows. Let me tell you,
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Speaker 1: the flabbels would be gasted, and in a move that
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Speaker 1: surprises absolutely no one, the rumor mill starts churning out
10:36
Speaker 1: like just a waft of abuse. The gossip on the
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Speaker 1: street was that she was even dating some of her customers,
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Speaker 1: Like whether she was or wasn't, Like she was just
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Speaker 1: out there working, she was earning money for herself, and
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Speaker 1: it gave her just a taste of something more and
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Speaker 1: she was becoming happier. And Edmund, oh no, he was
11:05
Speaker 1: not liking that one bit. He thought it was an
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Speaker 1: insult to him that she got a job, Like he
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Speaker 1: was personally offended that she was not a homemaker. And
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Speaker 1: by nineteen sixty four their marriage had just disintegrated, like
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Speaker 1: it was done. She had checked out, you know, like
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Speaker 1: she was done being made nurse servant, cook, like she
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Speaker 1: was done, you know. So this is like the year
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Speaker 1: before this incident, So they had separated, she had kicked
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Speaker 1: him out, and so we'd moved into like a boarding
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Speaker 1: house nearby. So she had decided that she wanted a divorce, right,
11:48
Speaker 1: she had checked out of this relationship way before she
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Speaker 1: even kicked him out. Because like any woman listening will
11:55
Speaker 1: know this, Like by the time a woman leaves a
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Speaker 1: relationship like she's done, like she's grieved for it, she's
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Speaker 1: gone through the whole motions because she's just she's processed
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Speaker 1: it right and then she's done. So she's got all
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Speaker 1: of her ducks in a row ready to go. So
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Speaker 1: she asks him for divorce and he is love it
12:18
Speaker 1: because he doesn't understand why she doesn't want to make
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Speaker 1: it work, like he doesn't get it like he wants to.
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Speaker 1: And because they're both from an Irish Catholic background, like
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Speaker 1: divorce no no, no, no, no, not a thing, not
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Speaker 1: a thing. But he was absolutely loved. He really resented
12:38
Speaker 1: her for not wanting to work things out. He basically
12:43
Speaker 1: wanted to stay married to her regardless of the effect
12:47
Speaker 1: it had on her, which which sounds like the template
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Speaker 1: of so many Reddit posts like you know the ones.
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Speaker 1: And Alice's own mother actually sided with her son in law,
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Speaker 1: with Eddie Senior claiming that the children will be better
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Speaker 1: off in his custody and that her daughter, Alice, the
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Speaker 1: children's mother, was clearly mentally ill, specifically because she wanted
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Speaker 1: her own life and wanted to divorce her husband. And
13:20
Speaker 1: this is a strange couple, like they're still pretty young actually,
13:23
Speaker 1: because Alice is only twenty six and Eddie is twenty nine,
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Speaker 1: and so yeah, they're going through this custody battle and
13:29
Speaker 1: they've got another one that's coming up soon. And so
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Speaker 1: when Alice doesn't see the kids in the room, her
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Speaker 1: first thought is that he has taken them, and not
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Speaker 1: just that, but taken them to get back at her,
13:40
Speaker 1: because he is pissed that she's outliving her life, that
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Speaker 1: she instead of being like a sad, depressed little housewife,
13:49
Speaker 1: she said fuck this for a game of soldiers and
13:51
Speaker 1: went out and got a job, right, lived her life.
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Speaker 1: And so she is panicked and she calls him and
13:58
Speaker 1: when he picks up, she's like, did you take them?
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Speaker 1: What did you do? Where are they? And she is
14:03
Speaker 1: just freaking out and he's acting like really confused. He's like,
14:08
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? You've got the kids, and
14:12
Speaker 1: he thinks she's irresponsible, obviously, because what responsible women would
14:18
Speaker 1: want a divorce, and she warns him, She tells him,
14:21
Speaker 1: don'to er Ladimieri. She accuses him of taking them, and
14:24
Speaker 1: he's just flat out denying it, and so he heads
14:28
Speaker 1: over to her apartment. After he gets there and they
14:30
Speaker 1: have a little look around, he ends up calling the
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Speaker 1: police and down they come to the apartment, and it
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Speaker 1: doesn't actually take too long for two detectives to show
14:40
Speaker 1: up in Alice's apartment, and so they sit the estranged
14:44
Speaker 1: couple down and then you'll try and put together the
14:47
Speaker 1: events of the day before. And Alice she gives a statement,
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Speaker 1: and she tells them that she had gone to a
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Speaker 1: park and had a picnic with Missy and Eddie Junior
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Speaker 1: sometime between like two thir in four point thirty, and
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Speaker 1: then after they finished their picnic they headed off home.
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Speaker 1: Now they stopped at a corner daily on the way
15:08
Speaker 1: because they wanted to pick up, you know, some bits
15:11
Speaker 1: for dinner, so veal string beans and then some drinks
15:16
Speaker 1: for it. That evening, Alice helps the Kirols wash up,
15:20
Speaker 1: she cooks dinner and then they always sit down to
15:22
Speaker 1: eat about seven to thirty that night. And so after
15:27
Speaker 1: they have something to eat, they all go for a
15:29
Speaker 1: little nighttime drive. So they've gone out for a week
15:33
Speaker 1: drive and they managed to get back to the apartment
15:36
Speaker 1: before nine pm that night. A fact that it's corroborated
15:40
Speaker 1: by a former babysitter of the children, because like you know,
15:45
Speaker 1: this whole it takes a village thing. Well, when it
15:47
Speaker 1: came to like people taking care of your kids, you
15:50
Speaker 1: would hire local, Like it just made sense. And so
15:54
Speaker 1: this former babysitter, she was walking past around about nine
15:58
Speaker 1: o'clock and she heard the children doing their nighttime prayers
16:01
Speaker 1: before bed, and so Alice tells them they went to bed,
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Speaker 1: that's the last time I saw them. And then like
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Speaker 1: she realizes, wait, no, not, actually it was about midnight,
16:11
Speaker 1: was the last time I saw them. Because Eddie needed
16:14
Speaker 1: the toilet, and so I took them to the bathroom.
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Speaker 1: And so it's like midnight is the last time she
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Speaker 1: sees the kids. And so she puts Eddie jun her
16:22
Speaker 1: back to bed, and then she goes to bed. And
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Speaker 1: as she's telling this story, because she's the one with
16:29
Speaker 1: all the information, the detectives discover that the parents of
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Speaker 1: these two missing children are not living together. Not only
16:36
Speaker 1: that they're going through a custody battle, and so they think,
16:40
Speaker 1: you know, what will separate them. We'll put one in
16:43
Speaker 1: one room in one and the other and just interrogate
16:47
Speaker 1: them separately, just in case there's something that one doesn't
16:50
Speaker 1: want to say in front of the other. You know,
16:52
Speaker 1: makes perfect sense, and the detective that's dealing with Eddie.
16:58
Speaker 1: You know, they're having a chat just like boys being
17:01
Speaker 1: boys and so ed he's telling a story. You know,
17:06
Speaker 1: went to work, did all the normal stuff, went out
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Speaker 1: for some drinks, and then went home, which is all
17:13
Speaker 1: fine and dandy. Right now in the other room where
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Speaker 1: Alice is being interrogated by Detective Jerry Peering, who was
17:23
Speaker 1: the first detective on the scene, and just straight away,
17:27
Speaker 1: like from the get go, he was convinced that Alice
17:30
Speaker 1: was guilty, something that is based in absolutely no detective
17:34
Speaker 1: skill whatsoever, but instead pure unadulterated misogyny. So here's the
17:42
Speaker 1: thing as well, he knows that he's on the cusp
17:44
Speaker 1: of a big promotion at work, and he knows that
17:48
Speaker 1: he stepped into an important case because missing children of
17:53
Speaker 1: like that's a big deal, like in the middle of
17:57
Speaker 1: the night from a decent area, like it's not good.
18:02
Speaker 1: And like the moment he steps in that door and
18:03
Speaker 1: he clocks Alice, like he is judging the hell out
18:08
Speaker 1: of her, because like she is dressed really nice, her
18:12
Speaker 1: red hair is all done, she's wearing a fill face
18:16
Speaker 1: of makeup. She's wearing tight trousers and high heels, like
18:21
Speaker 1: she had to wait for her husband, her estrange husband
18:26
Speaker 1: to show up, and then she has to wait for
18:28
Speaker 1: the detectives to arrive. She's probably well versed in her
18:33
Speaker 1: makeup retain at this point, and so here's here's Matt
18:38
Speaker 1: Hoppinsworth for a second before we get into it. Maybe
18:41
Speaker 1: there's a way she liked to present herself to the world.
18:45
Speaker 1: Maybe she was doing what she always did because she
18:47
Speaker 1: didn't want to change her routine too much because that
18:51
Speaker 1: would lead to the possibility of having to worry about
18:54
Speaker 1: something bad happening. Maybe she was distracting herself for whatever reason.
19:00
Speaker 1: She dressed nicely. She was all cute like, and he
19:06
Speaker 1: had an issue with this attractive woman being dressed well
19:12
Speaker 1: because in his mind, mothers should be little dumby house frauts,
19:18
Speaker 1: like that's that's the expectation. Good thing, we're not into
19:23
Speaker 1: that nowadays. And from his perspective, detective pairing Alice is
19:29
Speaker 1: not upset. She's not distressed in any way because she's
19:34
Speaker 1: not a blubbering mess, like you really think that she's
19:38
Speaker 1: going to be wailing and showing all this emotion. She's
19:42
Speaker 1: Irish Catholic. Okay, Catholics only have two emotions. Shame and guilt,
19:47
Speaker 1: nothing else. That's all that's there, right, done so, because
19:52
Speaker 1: she's relatively calm, gorgeous, and dressed fashionably, he's already got
19:58
Speaker 1: it out for her. And then, like, during this questioning,
20:02
Speaker 1: she mentions that she's had boyfriends, and he is just well,
20:08
Speaker 1: he's sexist because he's like, how can she have boyfriends?
20:12
Speaker 1: She's a mother, like sir, the two are not mutually exclusive.
20:18
Speaker 1: And yes, of course he thought that her job was
20:21
Speaker 1: well cedy. She was a cocktail waitress, not like a
20:25
Speaker 1: seamstress or another socially acceptable gendered job for mothers. So
20:32
Speaker 1: he's convinced she's guilty anyway, and so he asks her
20:35
Speaker 1: about the little nighttime drive that she went on with
20:37
Speaker 1: the kids, and Alice, okay, she decides to fess up
20:42
Speaker 1: on this one, and so she admits she had gone
20:46
Speaker 1: for a little drive around Eddie's new lodgings, right, She
20:51
Speaker 1: drove past in the hope that she could see him
20:54
Speaker 1: with another woman and she could use it against him
20:57
Speaker 1: in the custody battle because he'd been going a little
21:02
Speaker 1: off the rails. Some would argue nasty, some would call
21:06
Speaker 1: it batshit crazy, And so she thought that she could
21:11
Speaker 1: just find something on him that she could use against
21:15
Speaker 1: him and hopefully just keep the custody of her kids.
21:18
Speaker 1: Seemingly uninterested with her explanation, Detective Peering now decides to
21:23
Speaker 1: point out the window with the missing screen, and Alice
21:28
Speaker 1: tells him that, yeah, the children have managed to get
21:31
Speaker 1: out the window before, like they'd used it to go
21:34
Speaker 1: out and play. Because like this apartment, it's on what
21:37
Speaker 1: we would call the ground floor over here, but I
21:40
Speaker 1: think in the US it's the first floor. It's like
21:43
Speaker 1: ground level. Now it's a way bit raised this building,
21:46
Speaker 1: but it's nothing huge. So there are at the bottom level
21:51
Speaker 1: of the house like above basement, but you know the
21:55
Speaker 1: first one in where the front door is like that one.
22:00
Speaker 1: And so they would go out, they would play with
22:02
Speaker 1: you know, other neighborhood kids. Like they'd go into like
22:05
Speaker 1: other kids apartments, or they'd be in the front yard
22:08
Speaker 1: and they would always go together. If Eddie Junior was
22:12
Speaker 1: going somewhere, Missy was going to and vice versa. Like
22:16
Speaker 1: they were thick as thieves, a fact that was confirmed
22:20
Speaker 1: by many many neighbors when the police were doing their
22:24
Speaker 1: rounds knocking on doors asking questions because they were like,
22:28
Speaker 1: have you seen anything suspicious? Did you see this they're doing,
22:31
Speaker 1: you know, the general stuff, right and bout eleven o'clock
22:35
Speaker 1: that day, So about two to three hours after it's
22:39
Speaker 1: known that the children have gone missing, there's just like
22:44
Speaker 1: patrol car after patrol car, just like along the streets
22:48
Speaker 1: outside the apartment complex. Now you've got some in places
22:53
Speaker 1: just trying to just keep a lookout, trying to see
22:57
Speaker 1: if they spot the kids. So you had some knocking
22:59
Speaker 1: on someone lookout, and then others were scooby doing it
23:04
Speaker 1: just like scouring the building for clues. And so they're
23:08
Speaker 1: checking everything. They're looking outside in trash cans, they're downstairs
23:13
Speaker 1: in the basement like they are just top to bottom bunabar.
23:18
Speaker 1: They are looking through everywhere. And detective peering, who is
23:22
Speaker 1: so so just hyper focused on Alice being guilty that
23:29
Speaker 1: he doesn't even consider any of the other possibilities, you know,
23:33
Speaker 1: like you're supposed to do as a police officer slash
23:37
Speaker 1: detective authority person. Perhaps the detective could do some detecting. Okay,
23:44
Speaker 1: So sidebar, there's this theory in psychology. I've spoken about
23:48
Speaker 1: it before. I can never remember the real name for it,
23:51
Speaker 1: but I call it the black swan theory, and it's
23:54
Speaker 1: all about like scientific integrity. So effectively, if you're trying
23:58
Speaker 1: to prove something, you have to try and improve the opposite.
24:02
Speaker 1: And the example given is if you're trying to prove
24:06
Speaker 1: that no blackswans exist, you have to go out and
24:11
Speaker 1: try and improve the existence of black swans, which, in
24:15
Speaker 1: a way sideways brings us to due process and reasonable doubt.
24:22
Speaker 1: And so Detective Peering he is again so convinced that
24:27
Speaker 1: she is guilty that he's just going around and looking
24:29
Speaker 1: for evidence that he can use to back up this
24:32
Speaker 1: claim specifically. And so when he goes outside and he's
24:36
Speaker 1: going through like the rubbish and the garbage, he finds
24:40
Speaker 1: booze bottles and he's like, hellaoa laoa lau. I don't
24:43
Speaker 1: know why I made impression. Hello, Hello, Hello, that's very
24:47
Speaker 1: that's not good either. Hello, hello, Hello, that's my New
24:52
Speaker 1: York impression. Is it just me? Or does anybody think
24:56
Speaker 1: that the New York accent is the derivative of especially
25:01
Speaker 1: Baltic accents like polish anybody, I'm just just a thought.
25:08
Speaker 1: So anyway, Detective Peering he comes across these bottles of
25:12
Speaker 1: a liquor and he just starts formulating this theory in
25:16
Speaker 1: his head. He's like, the only very reasonable, entirely plausible explanation,
25:22
Speaker 1: the only one is that she's drinking this booze. She's
25:26
Speaker 1: locking the kids in the room because you remember there's
25:29
Speaker 1: a latch on the door. She's locking them in the room.
25:32
Speaker 1: She's inviting men over for salacious nights and boozing it up.
25:38
Speaker 1: And so he's are like, you've got all these booze
25:41
Speaker 1: bottles in the trash, and Alice is like, no, all
25:46
Speaker 1: of the booze is because she knew that there was
25:49
Speaker 1: a possibility that she was going to have an inspector
25:52
Speaker 1: from the city agency to come and look around, and
25:56
Speaker 1: so she wanted the place to look as respectable as possible,
26:00
Speaker 1: and so she just got rid of anything that could
26:03
Speaker 1: be deemed as such. And there's a custody here in
26:06
Speaker 1: coming up, so she wanted to make sure that she
26:07
Speaker 1: had crossed her t's and dotted her eyes. Now, unsurprisingly,
26:13
Speaker 1: this was not enough to sway Detective Pairing. He thought
26:17
Speaker 1: it was her. He was gonna pin it on her
26:19
Speaker 1: one way or the other. And then that's when Detective
26:23
Speaker 1: George Martin, his partner, manages to come across a little
26:30
Speaker 1: black book. So back in the day people would have
26:39
Speaker 1: like a little black book. It's where this whole idea
26:43
Speaker 1: of ooh, a list of names comes from. Yet it's
26:46
Speaker 1: a little black book. It used to be where you'd
26:48
Speaker 1: put like a name and a phone number, like before
26:52
Speaker 1: you had contacts in your mobile phone. People used to
26:56
Speaker 1: have these little phone books. And so she had names
27:00
Speaker 1: and numbers of acquaintances in there. And so George Martin,
27:05
Speaker 1: he is going through this book and he notices that
27:10
Speaker 1: this book has more male names than female names, and
27:15
Speaker 1: he says that it is a four to one ratio,
27:19
Speaker 1: four men to every woman in this book. This combined
27:24
Speaker 1: with quote documentation in her bedroom. One of her boyfriends
27:30
Speaker 1: was Antony Grace or Tony to his friends, and he
27:35
Speaker 1: had some very powerful ones. Actually he was a contractor
27:39
Speaker 1: by tread and yeah, he got around, He got around.
27:43
Speaker 1: Included in his very long list of friends were a
27:47
Speaker 1: member of the Kennedy family and the mayor of New
27:52
Speaker 1: York at the time, Robert Wagner. And Tony had also
27:55
Speaker 1: sorted out Alice's lawyer, so Migael Lapenna, he was her
27:59
Speaker 1: attorney and the custody battle and she had even been
28:03
Speaker 1: talking to him the night before, like she'd called him
28:05
Speaker 1: because she was worried about this. Evelyn Atkins, who used
28:09
Speaker 1: to be Alice's maid, so she calls her up and
28:14
Speaker 1: tries to blackmail her, saying if she doesn't give her
28:16
Speaker 1: six hundred dollars, she would be forced to testify against
28:21
Speaker 1: her in the custody hearing, saying that Alice had abandoned
28:24
Speaker 1: her children to go on a boat trip with Tony
28:27
Speaker 1: Grace and a bunch of his buddies. And so Alice
28:32
Speaker 1: had called Michael Leavenna, her lawyer, to like try and
28:36
Speaker 1: work this out, and so her attorney, he had assured her,
28:39
Speaker 1: like it's fine, this isn't gonna happen, and like also sidebar,
28:44
Speaker 1: she had not abandoned her kids. She had hired a
28:47
Speaker 1: babysitter to come and look after her children when she
28:52
Speaker 1: went on a trip with her friends. Like that is
28:55
Speaker 1: what happened. She had a babysitter in a maid, and
28:58
Speaker 1: so these people were paid to do their jobs. And
29:03
Speaker 1: she went to see her boyfriend. If you provide appropriate care,
29:08
Speaker 1: then you're not abandoning them. I feel like this is
29:13
Speaker 1: not complicated. But yes, she'd been on the phone to him,
29:16
Speaker 1: and she was riled up right because she had tried
29:23
Speaker 1: to go and find Eddie's new apartment. She tried to
29:26
Speaker 1: go and find where he was staying, but she couldn't.
29:29
Speaker 1: She didn't know where it was, and so she was
29:33
Speaker 1: pissed off about that. And also she tried to call
29:36
Speaker 1: her boyfriend Tony earlier and could not get through to him,
29:41
Speaker 1: like he hadn't called her back, and she was just
29:45
Speaker 1: on tender hooks, right, and she's trying to watch Telly.
29:49
Speaker 1: She's trying to sort herself out, you know, distract yourself,
29:52
Speaker 1: chill out, kids are in bed, everything should be fine now.
29:57
Speaker 1: But she's got that nickel and Vieelin just like crutch
30:00
Speaker 1: in the back of head, and she's like, he's out
30:02
Speaker 1: there with someone else. Tony hasn't called me back. He's
30:05
Speaker 1: out there with another woman. And so she calls this
30:08
Speaker 1: bar that he frequents and she calls and he's there
30:13
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, who are you stepping out with?
30:17
Speaker 1: And he tells her like, I'm here by myself. I'm
30:20
Speaker 1: just shooting the shit hanging out of my pals. No worries,
30:24
Speaker 1: So he hangs up and then like seconds later, the
30:30
Speaker 1: phone rings again and she answers it just full of rage,
30:36
Speaker 1: thinking it's gonna be Tony, but it's another fella, Joe roak.
30:43
Speaker 1: So Joe. He's a house renovator. Like okay, so she's
30:46
Speaker 1: got a contractor and a house renovator. Are they connected?
30:51
Speaker 1: Is she just trying to weasel her way into real estate?
30:54
Speaker 1: Whom's to say? But yeah, she's chatting to him and
30:57
Speaker 1: he's like, come on out, come to this bar that's
31:00
Speaker 1: go for drinks. And she tells them, no, right, I
31:05
Speaker 1: can't go out. I don't have a babysitter. I can't
31:08
Speaker 1: leave the apartment, not coming to get you. And so
31:11
Speaker 1: he's like, sure, okay, cool adiot was done. So after that,
31:15
Speaker 1: she's like trying to just you know, chill out. And
31:20
Speaker 1: then she hears Eddie Junior wake up. He gets up.
31:24
Speaker 1: She takes them to the loo, she puts them back
31:26
Speaker 1: to bed, and then she takes Brandy, which is their dog,
31:30
Speaker 1: and she takes Brandy out for just a quick once
31:33
Speaker 1: over around the neighborhood to go out do their business
31:37
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, and so like this
31:40
Speaker 1: was her routine. She would normally take out Brandy, like
31:43
Speaker 1: after the kids went to bed. She would do this
31:46
Speaker 1: a little kind of like decompression, you know, So she
31:49
Speaker 1: would go out and make her way around the neighborhood
31:52
Speaker 1: and that would just be that. And then she'd get
31:56
Speaker 1: back to the apartment complex and would just sit on
31:59
Speaker 1: the porch outside, you know, just chilling her and the
32:03
Speaker 1: dog late at night, like it was. I'm not gonna
32:07
Speaker 1: say it was safer back then, depends on where you are.
32:12
Speaker 1: Serial killers were still a thing in the past, just saying,
32:17
Speaker 1: but yeah, she's just relaxing on the porch at night.
32:20
Speaker 1: It's her thing. I mean, she has two young children,
32:24
Speaker 1: she's working, she's busy, she's doing all this. She's got
32:28
Speaker 1: a stressful life, so yeah, take a moment to chill
32:30
Speaker 1: on the porch. Like in my head, she's having a cigarette.
32:33
Speaker 1: I don't even know if she smokes, but in my head,
32:35
Speaker 1: she's having a cigarette, just exhaling on the porch. So
32:42
Speaker 1: her and Brandy they come back inside the house. She
32:45
Speaker 1: gets herself ready for bed, She does her whole routine, Glenstones, moisturize,
32:51
Speaker 1: sets her hair, whatever. She's getting ready to go to bed,
32:54
Speaker 1: and then the phone rings again. It's after midnight at
32:58
Speaker 1: this point, right, and so she answers it, and who
33:01
Speaker 1: is on the other end but Eddie Senior, her strange husband,
33:09
Speaker 1: and he tells her that he'd already spoken to miss
33:11
Speaker 1: Evelyn and that she had better pay the six hundred
33:16
Speaker 1: dollars that Eveylyn is blackmailing her for if she knows
33:21
Speaker 1: what's good for her and Alice. She hangs up. She's
33:25
Speaker 1: just on edge at this point, and so she tries
33:29
Speaker 1: to go to sleep. It's just not happening for her,
33:32
Speaker 1: and so she gets back up, gets the dog and
33:35
Speaker 1: goes for another lap around the neighborhood. And she gets
33:40
Speaker 1: back she decides to run a bath because she's just
33:44
Speaker 1: wired at this point. She's stressed. She's just on fucking edge.
33:50
Speaker 1: She's tap dancing on a razor blade, right, She just
33:53
Speaker 1: needs something. So she runs a bath about four o'clock
33:58
Speaker 1: in the morning, maybe half three, and so she kits
34:03
Speaker 1: into this. But of course Detective Peering he is not
34:07
Speaker 1: happy with these ansels like he's convinced that she's hiding something,
34:12
Speaker 1: and so he is just like digging, digging, digging like
34:15
Speaker 1: n But he's focusing so much on her that he's
34:21
Speaker 1: completely ignoring the walking red flag, which is Eddie Senior
34:26
Speaker 1: see Eddie for a lack of a better term, was
34:29
Speaker 1: obsessed with Alice. Like they'd been married what seven years
34:33
Speaker 1: in total. They met in high school and just after
34:37
Speaker 1: they graduated they got married. And as I said earlier,
34:42
Speaker 1: he was the primary cause of their marriage failing. So
34:46
Speaker 1: when Eddie Junior was born, he started hitting the bottle hard.
34:52
Speaker 1: And when Missy was born, it did not get any better.
34:58
Speaker 1: And he was in incredibly, incredibly just controlling like he was.
35:06
Speaker 1: Because Alice had had two kids, one after the other,
35:09
Speaker 1: one year after the other, so she's got two under two.
35:13
Speaker 1: She is stressed, and she is trying to survive with
35:16
Speaker 1: a drunkard husband. Right, and at some point after Missy's birth,
35:22
Speaker 1: she goes on birth control. Alice goes on birth control
35:24
Speaker 1: and just does not tell him, like he finds out,
35:29
Speaker 1: like before they actually split. So he finds out, and
35:34
Speaker 1: he is the one who wants to separate initially actually,
35:37
Speaker 1: which is the interesting thing, Like he is just enraged
35:41
Speaker 1: because to him, birth control is a kin to blasphemy
35:44
Speaker 1: as opposed to you know, healthcare. Right. She does not
35:48
Speaker 1: want to have any more children for many reasons, one
35:52
Speaker 1: of which being you, sir, and so, yeah, she's on
35:56
Speaker 1: birth control and he is just insani and so he
36:01
Speaker 1: probably told her mother about her being on birth control,
36:03
Speaker 1: which is how he got her mum inside. That's my theory.
36:07
Speaker 1: But yeah, so he decided after she kicked him out
36:10
Speaker 1: because she was like, no, you want to separate, Fine,
36:14
Speaker 1: you think I'm blasphemous, get the fuck out, right, she
36:17
Speaker 1: kicks him out, And it's after this that he tries
36:20
Speaker 1: to get custody of the kids, and so he goes
36:23
Speaker 1: to the courts and he is proclaiming that Alice was
36:27
Speaker 1: a loose woman, she was a floozy, and that there
36:29
Speaker 1: were strange men all over her house and she was
36:32
Speaker 1: parading them in and out and it wasn't safe for
36:36
Speaker 1: their kids, and like even if she was dating other people, Yeah,
36:45
Speaker 1: it's none of your fucking business because you're separated, Like,
36:48
Speaker 1: you don't get to have an opinion on that. I'm sorry, No, Like,
36:53
Speaker 1: as long as the kids aren't in danger, you don't
36:55
Speaker 1: get to have a say on how she dates. But anyway,
36:59
Speaker 1: he was just so, hm, how I put this badshit?
37:05
Speaker 1: Fucking crazy? Right? So he goes full stalker, like he
37:12
Speaker 1: bugs her phone, he even bugged her bedroom, right, you
37:17
Speaker 1: know what he would do. You know what he would do.
37:19
Speaker 1: This is just six levels of crazy. Okay, so he's
37:24
Speaker 1: bugged her phone, he's bugged her bedroom. Right, he's got
37:28
Speaker 1: a microphone in there. And so when she had men over, right,
37:33
Speaker 1: he would come over, sneak into the basement, hide in
37:37
Speaker 1: the basement of her apartment building, and listen to her
37:41
Speaker 1: have sex with other men. Eddie. No, so he's full
37:47
Speaker 1: on spying on her. And like, you know how earlier,
37:51
Speaker 1: Alice had stated that she had driven around trying to
37:54
Speaker 1: find his apartment so she could see if he was
37:56
Speaker 1: with women. So that same thing the night before, right,
38:02
Speaker 1: Eddie had driven over and like circled the area, had
38:06
Speaker 1: gone around the apartment to see if she had any
38:09
Speaker 1: men over. So the night before, the two of them
38:11
Speaker 1: are driving around trying to catch each other with someone
38:16
Speaker 1: else like that that's what they did. But yeah, he
38:20
Speaker 1: is just sometimes he would sneak into her apartment just
38:26
Speaker 1: so he could touch things of hers. And his behavior
38:30
Speaker 1: was getting like wildly erratic. Like at one point he
38:33
Speaker 1: is just flashing, like he is just exposing himself to
38:37
Speaker 1: girls in the park. Like but no one ever, no
38:41
Speaker 1: one ever deals with this, like let's not focus on that. Apparently,
38:45
Speaker 1: so he does this, and it's actually what's interesting is
38:49
Speaker 1: it's only after she goes to the Bahamas with Tony Grace, Right,
38:53
Speaker 1: it's only after this that he fails for soul custody.
38:58
Speaker 1: Right that when he does it because she went on
39:01
Speaker 1: holiday with her boyfriend, Like, these aren't even red flags anymore.
39:05
Speaker 1: It is a cape, right, And when you put together
39:09
Speaker 1: all of the creepy stuff he had done over the
39:13
Speaker 1: last year, kind of makes sense. What Alice's first thought
39:17
Speaker 1: was that he had taken them out of spite. And
39:22
Speaker 1: as the day progressed, a terrible discovery was made. On
39:27
Speaker 1: this warm sunny day, nine year old Jay Silverman had
39:30
Speaker 1: gone outside to play and he was going past this
39:34
Speaker 1: empty lot, which was about eight blocks from the crimen's apartment,
39:39
Speaker 1: and there he sees what no nine year old should
39:41
Speaker 1: ever have to see, and that is the lifeless body
39:46
Speaker 1: of four year old Missy on the cement. And when
39:49
Speaker 1: the police arrive at the crime scene, it is clear
39:52
Speaker 1: that this was not an accident. Missy had been strangled.
39:57
Speaker 1: The detectives escorted Alice to the m lot without actually
40:02
Speaker 1: telling her why she was being taken there, which is
40:05
Speaker 1: beyond cruel, but because they were convinced that she was
40:10
Speaker 1: the culprit, they decided to bring this woman to see
40:16
Speaker 1: her four year old's corpse. Lying on an empty lot,
40:22
Speaker 1: Missy was lying on her side in the grass with
40:26
Speaker 1: yellow underwear and a white T shirt. Her blue flour
40:29
Speaker 1: print pajamatop the one that she had gone to bed wearing,
40:34
Speaker 1: was tied tightly around her neck and Alice. Upon seeing her,
40:43
Speaker 1: Alice staggers. She manages to mutter it's Missy before collapsing
40:50
Speaker 1: into the arms of the very detective who's trying to
40:53
Speaker 1: pin her murder on her. Alice didn't have much of
40:57
Speaker 1: an outward reaction. Depression was vacant. She just kind of stared.
41:04
Speaker 1: And she didn't scream or cry or blubber. She just stared.
41:12
Speaker 1: She was brought back to the police car and unmarked
41:17
Speaker 1: police car, i should say, and she just zoned out right.
41:25
Speaker 1: And the fact that she wasn't balling and crying this
41:28
Speaker 1: just cemented this view by the detectives that she wasn't grieving.
41:34
Speaker 1: Later on that day, like she completely broke down, and
41:40
Speaker 1: when she did, the police called it theatrical and calculated,
41:44
Speaker 1: like not as if she had time to process those emotions,
41:48
Speaker 1: like you hadn't even warned her that you were going
41:50
Speaker 1: to show her the corpse of her four year old daughter. Think,
41:56
Speaker 1: Oh she didn't show enough emotion. Oh she showed too
41:59
Speaker 1: much emotion. So clearly, clearly she can't win either way,
42:01
Speaker 1: you know. Missus Autoposy would later report that there were
42:04
Speaker 1: hemorrhages in the mucus memberies in the throat and vocal cords,
42:08
Speaker 1: indicating that she had been strangled, and her official cause
42:12
Speaker 1: of death was asphyxiation and homicide. This four year old
42:18
Speaker 1: girl was strangled to death. The funny thing about strangulation
42:24
Speaker 1: is that it is not quick. It's not easy to
42:29
Speaker 1: strangle someone like. It takes a lot of time and
42:33
Speaker 1: a lot of force. Like it's a lot of work
42:36
Speaker 1: to strangle someone, even a child like you have to
42:41
Speaker 1: really ensure that they are dead. And what a horrific
42:48
Speaker 1: thing to do to a four year old girl. And
42:52
Speaker 1: so Alice ended her day with one child dead and
42:55
Speaker 1: another child missing. And remember these kids were close. They
43:01
Speaker 1: went everywhere together, they never went anywhere without each other.
43:07
Speaker 1: And missus body had been found. And Eddie, he was
43:10
Speaker 1: so protective of his little sister. Everybody said, everybody knew
43:16
Speaker 1: he wouldn't have just left her, and so the question
43:20
Speaker 1: was where the hell was Eddie Junior. Five days after
43:32
Speaker 1: the disappearance of the children and the discovery of missus body, Monday,
43:38
Speaker 1: the nineteenth of July, Vernon Warnkey and his son were
43:41
Speaker 1: heading over to this treehouse which overlooked the van Wick Expressway.
43:45
Speaker 1: It was about half a mile away from the Krimen's apartment.
43:50
Speaker 1: When Vernon, as he's walking, he says what he thinks
43:54
Speaker 1: is a blanket, and being a man walking around seeing
43:59
Speaker 1: a blanket, he kicks it over and as it rolls over,
44:05
Speaker 1: it's clear that it's not a blanket, it is instead
44:10
Speaker 1: the body of five year old Eddie Junior. Authorities arrived
44:15
Speaker 1: to Eddy Genior's body in a gruesome condition. The sun
44:19
Speaker 1: had been beating down for days, resulting in Eddy Genior's
44:24
Speaker 1: body being in an advanced state of decomposition. Rats and
44:29
Speaker 1: insects had also gotten too the body, resulting in his
44:33
Speaker 1: face being disfigured. This five year old boy's body was
44:38
Speaker 1: in such bad condition that they couldn't actually determine a
44:43
Speaker 1: cause of death other than homicide. The following Saturday, a
44:48
Speaker 1: joint funeral was held for the two crimen's children, and
44:53
Speaker 1: the community was not only mourning the loss of these
44:58
Speaker 1: two kids as brother and sister, but also they were
45:03
Speaker 1: looking for someone to blame for this. And this was
45:06
Speaker 1: an era where detectives are quite openly sharing their theories
45:11
Speaker 1: and anything in everything is being published in the newspapers
45:14
Speaker 1: because you don't have like journalistic regulations. You have details
45:19
Speaker 1: of the case being publicized, facts that should not be out,
45:24
Speaker 1: you know, for many reasons, for many very legal reasons.
45:29
Speaker 1: And of course when it was discovered that Alice and
45:32
Speaker 1: Eddie were in the midst of a custody battle, you
45:35
Speaker 1: had everybody just pointing and blaming either both just both
45:43
Speaker 1: sides of the fence, which was exacerbated by police Inspector
45:46
Speaker 1: Michael Clifford, who was like in charge of the whole investigation.
45:51
Speaker 1: He told your borders that the double murder of the
45:54
Speaker 1: children seemed to be an inside job. So you've got
45:59
Speaker 1: the police inspector saying it's an inside job. You've got
46:02
Speaker 1: this very tumultuous custody battle, and then you've got and
46:09
Speaker 1: then you have journalists like newspaper people literally going around
46:14
Speaker 1: the neighborhood like the Crimen's neighborhood, like trying to convince
46:20
Speaker 1: the neighbors, right, all the people in this neighborhood to
46:24
Speaker 1: say that there's like a maniac on the list, Like
46:27
Speaker 1: isn't there a crazy guy out here trying to steal kids?
46:31
Speaker 1: And like like the neighborhood in a very sane and
46:35
Speaker 1: rational way is like, no, haven't heard that, don't know
46:39
Speaker 1: what that's about. No, nothing like this happens here. This
46:44
Speaker 1: is a good neighborhood, so on and so forth. And
46:46
Speaker 1: so you have some people who think that this is
46:48
Speaker 1: an inside job, and you've got a bunch of other
46:51
Speaker 1: people who just don't believe that either of these parents
46:55
Speaker 1: would do this. But yeah, after funeral, the police reinterrogate
47:02
Speaker 1: Alice and Eddie and the two of them. You know,
47:06
Speaker 1: they've got inconsistencies in their stories, which is normal. Like,
47:10
Speaker 1: here's the thing. If you can tell something verbatim over
47:13
Speaker 1: and over, it usually means that it's rehearsed. Although if
47:18
Speaker 1: you've told the same story like for twenty years, chances
47:21
Speaker 1: are you know it well. But for the most part,
47:23
Speaker 1: things are gonna change. Your human memory is unreliable, and
47:27
Speaker 1: like you're gonna mix things up and mess it up,
47:30
Speaker 1: especially you know, if your children are missing and you're
47:34
Speaker 1: having to recall information about the day before, like how
47:39
Speaker 1: many pieces of toast did you make? Was it cut? Diagonalar? Square?
47:43
Speaker 1: Like whatever it is they're asking you, it's probably gonna
47:47
Speaker 1: be wrong somewhere. So, like when they're being interrogated at
47:51
Speaker 1: the police station, like Peering, detective Peering, he says to
47:57
Speaker 1: his partner, you get Eddie, I'll get the bitch Group
48:04
Speaker 1: police worktrol. So it's during this interrogation that this is
48:10
Speaker 1: where Eddie actually admits to driving to the apartment, like
48:14
Speaker 1: in spying on Alice, which feels like a pretty big
48:18
Speaker 1: deal in something that somebody should focus on. And Alice,
48:23
Speaker 1: she also has to confirm things. So Missy's autopsy shows
48:26
Speaker 1: that Missy had pasta and her intestines, but Alice said
48:31
Speaker 1: that she cooked them veal in string beans. Now, when
48:36
Speaker 1: they went through all the garbage at her apartment, they
48:39
Speaker 1: did find a box of pasta, so like that's there.
48:44
Speaker 1: But they're like, why did she lie about pasta? Why
48:47
Speaker 1: did she lie? What else could she be lying about?
48:49
Speaker 1: She lied about food as opposed to lying about driving
48:55
Speaker 1: to your ex's apartment? And sneaking into her house. Yes,
49:00
Speaker 1: and to listen to her having sex with other men.
49:03
Speaker 1: Feels like one of these things is not like the others.
49:08
Speaker 1: Convinced that that both of them are just lying out
49:11
Speaker 1: the wazoo, right, they bring them to go have polygraph tests, which,
49:15
Speaker 1: as we know now are unreliable, right, And so Eddie
49:21
Speaker 1: does the polygraph test and he is eliminated as a suspect,
49:27
Speaker 1: and you know, he gets out and he tells Alice,
49:29
Speaker 1: just go down, you'll be fine, just do it right.
49:33
Speaker 1: And so she goes down and she goes to the
49:36
Speaker 1: test and they do like basic questions, what's your name,
49:41
Speaker 1: what's the date, so on and so forth. And so
49:45
Speaker 1: this test is administered like in a room with a
49:49
Speaker 1: double mirror, and so she's there getting the test done,
49:52
Speaker 1: and on the other side she can hear people laughing.
49:57
Speaker 1: Like feels like a bad mirror, really if you've done
49:59
Speaker 1: it that, But she's convinced you to hear people laughing
50:02
Speaker 1: in the next room. And so she tells him, like
50:06
Speaker 1: the guy doing the polygraph, that she can hear people laughing.
50:11
Speaker 1: And she's not comfortable. This is a woman who has
50:14
Speaker 1: just buried both of her children. She has done a
50:17
Speaker 1: lie detector test, or she's trying to do a lie
50:19
Speaker 1: detector test, and she can hear people laughing in the
50:22
Speaker 1: next room, so she rips off the tape and just
50:28
Speaker 1: legs it. She's just out the door now. To everyone else,
50:31
Speaker 1: this seems very suspicious as opposed to a woman being
50:37
Speaker 1: upset after suffering something upsetting, and Detective Peering he is
50:44
Speaker 1: just running with this, and he is telling everybody right,
50:48
Speaker 1: even though the only evidence they currently have is that
50:53
Speaker 1: these children were murdered. That's the solid evidence, that's what
50:58
Speaker 1: they have, right, But he's just he's got a bay
51:02
Speaker 1: in his bunnet about this, right. Alice and Eddie are
51:05
Speaker 1: going through a custody battle. She doesn't want to do
51:08
Speaker 1: the lie detector test, and she had a mm wi's
51:15
Speaker 1: the word unscrupulous lifestyle. She worked in a cocktail bar.
51:20
Speaker 1: She was a redhead, which apparently is an issue. She
51:26
Speaker 1: wore makeup in fashionable clothes. She dated people will technically
51:32
Speaker 1: stop being married. And Detective Peering was convinced that Alice
51:37
Speaker 1: murdered her own children so she could go live a
51:41
Speaker 1: party girl life, which here's a fatal flop in that
51:47
Speaker 1: theory for me. Edmund Eddie Senior. He wanted full custody.
51:54
Speaker 1: He wanted full custody of those children. If Alice didn't
51:58
Speaker 1: have to look after her children, because Eddie had full custody,
52:03
Speaker 1: she could go have her party girl lifestyle. Like that's
52:09
Speaker 1: just something she could do, Like she wouldn't have to
52:13
Speaker 1: go through the custody battle. She wouldn't have to fight
52:16
Speaker 1: to have her children. What part of this math and
52:23
Speaker 1: mathin But anyway, he thinks this is what she did,
52:26
Speaker 1: and so he starts looking into Tony Grace and Joe Rorak.
52:31
Speaker 1: So Tony he's got some connections. Like they're already a
52:34
Speaker 1: bit suspicious of him as a person because he's got
52:37
Speaker 1: these big connections with you know, the big guns, but
52:40
Speaker 1: also with some crime families. See Tony, he's a busy guy. Right,
52:45
Speaker 1: Tony actually has an alibi because he wasn't alone at
52:50
Speaker 1: the bar that night, like he told her no, no, no,
52:53
Speaker 1: no no. He was there with four other women who
52:58
Speaker 1: were all able to corroborate the hay there along with
53:02
Speaker 1: the people at the bar. Right, he has so many
53:05
Speaker 1: witnesses he's there, He's got alibies. So Tony he's a
53:10
Speaker 1: busy guy, like I said, and so they actually struggle
53:13
Speaker 1: to get to him. They do manage to get Joe
53:17
Speaker 1: Rorick though. So they bring Joe in and they're like,
53:21
Speaker 1: this is going to be easy. He's not a mob guy.
53:24
Speaker 1: He's going to talk, but he is just like keeping
53:27
Speaker 1: it stump. He doesn't say anything. But then they do
53:30
Speaker 1: some digging and they discover that Joe is bisexual. And
53:34
Speaker 1: so this is nineteen sixties, you know, they're freaking out,
53:38
Speaker 1: and so they're going to use this as leverage because
53:41
Speaker 1: I think I think it was still illegal at the
53:44
Speaker 1: time and so, but also Joe was married. He had
53:49
Speaker 1: a whole wife at home, and they threatened to expose
53:53
Speaker 1: his big gay love affair to his wife if he
53:57
Speaker 1: didn't start talking. And so they get him to try
54:02
Speaker 1: and get information out of Alice. Right, they like wire
54:05
Speaker 1: him up, they bug rooms and so, like they bug
54:09
Speaker 1: a motel room, and they try and get him to
54:12
Speaker 1: get Alice to incriminate herself, and she doesn't say anything,
54:18
Speaker 1: like she's got nothing to say. And then they tap
54:23
Speaker 1: her phone as well, and they like bug her into
54:26
Speaker 1: her house just like you know Heeddy Senil did. But Alice,
54:33
Speaker 1: she's not stupid and she knows that she's being tailed.
54:38
Speaker 1: She knows she's being surveyed, and so she just doesn't
54:42
Speaker 1: act up, like she already knows that she's lost the
54:44
Speaker 1: court of public opinion by being an independent woman, and
54:49
Speaker 1: now they think that she's murdered her own children. And
54:53
Speaker 1: for a second time, actually she goes fuck this for
54:56
Speaker 1: a game of soldiers, because she decides to just lean in,
55:03
Speaker 1: right so, because she knows she's being bugged. When she's
55:08
Speaker 1: got a man over, like she'll like mown extra loud,
55:12
Speaker 1: you bang that headboard. She's a level of petty that
55:14
Speaker 1: I appreciate. And then sometimes she'll just pick up the
55:18
Speaker 1: phone and just go drop dead boys and then hang
55:21
Speaker 1: up like she's just she just knows at this point
55:26
Speaker 1: right now, her being petty and just doing this actually
55:30
Speaker 1: works against her later on in the trial. But like
55:35
Speaker 1: she knows they're doing this to her. And she was
55:39
Speaker 1: being surveyed not just by authorities but by the newspapers too,
55:44
Speaker 1: so like articles were coming out about her, like she
55:47
Speaker 1: had to quit her job because just everyone was spying
55:51
Speaker 1: on her and she couldn't just do it, And so
55:55
Speaker 1: she tries to get like a more socially acceptable job
56:00
Speaker 1: and so she gets a gig as a secretary and
56:03
Speaker 1: addictive pearing. He was an absolute dick, right, because she
56:08
Speaker 1: would use her maiden name to get jobs, so Alice
56:11
Speaker 1: Burk and so she would get a job under her
56:14
Speaker 1: maiden name, and he would find out when she got
56:18
Speaker 1: hired or where she got hired, and he would call
56:21
Speaker 1: them up and tell them, you know, you've get Alice
56:23
Speaker 1: Crimins working for you, right, And so she would get
56:25
Speaker 1: fired because this man had it out for her. And
56:30
Speaker 1: this goes on for years, like she would get job,
56:33
Speaker 1: he would get he fired. And this goes all the
56:36
Speaker 1: way through nineteen sixty seven. And this whole time, over
56:40
Speaker 1: the course of these years, not once does Alice say
56:45
Speaker 1: anything incriminating. No evidence comes up to implicate her in this,
56:51
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of pressure being put on the
56:54
Speaker 1: DA to make a move, like they want this sordid,
56:58
Speaker 1: they want action taken, and they want someone arrested for
57:02
Speaker 1: the murder of these two children. And the police they
57:06
Speaker 1: realize they've spent years years like focusing on Alice, and
57:15
Speaker 1: there's other stuff to look up, because this is New York,
57:18
Speaker 1: you know, there's other things to do, and directed peering
57:21
Speaker 1: is just he is relentless. He wants to do this,
57:26
Speaker 1: so he starts going over tips had come in over years,
57:29
Speaker 1: and he comes to this letter right of someone claiming
57:33
Speaker 1: to be looking out the window. On the fourteenth of
57:35
Speaker 1: July nineteen sixty five, and the letter read. Shortly after
57:41
Speaker 1: two am, a man and woman came walking down the
57:43
Speaker 1: street towards seventy second Road in Queens. The woman, who
57:46
Speaker 1: was lagging about five feet behind the man, was holding
57:49
Speaker 1: one appeared to be a bundle of blankets shining white
57:51
Speaker 1: under the left arm, and with her right hand led
57:54
Speaker 1: little boy walking at her side. The man shouted at
57:57
Speaker 1: her to hurry, and she told him to be quiet
57:59
Speaker 1: or someone will see us. The man took the blanket
58:02
Speaker 1: like white bundle and heaved it onto the back seat
58:04
Speaker 1: of a nondescript automobile. The wind picked up the little
58:07
Speaker 1: boy and sat with him in the back seat. She
58:10
Speaker 1: had dark hair, and her companion was tall, not heavy,
58:13
Speaker 1: with dark hair and a large nose and so and
58:16
Speaker 1: it sounded like a reader. So basically he owns in
58:23
Speaker 1: and he's like, okay, she and her boyfriend took the kids,
58:26
Speaker 1: and that's dumped them, and so they need to find
58:30
Speaker 1: the writer of this letter. And so they look through
58:34
Speaker 1: the letter and they try and find like stuff that's there,
58:37
Speaker 1: and it's a room with a view that has air
58:39
Speaker 1: cone and a bunch of other stuff, right, and they
58:42
Speaker 1: found Sophie Ramerski and she's you know, she admits to
58:46
Speaker 1: write the letter. Here's the thing. Sophie had a history
58:51
Speaker 1: of mental illness. Like she had been known to make
58:56
Speaker 1: up stories and a bit of Walter Mitty. She would
58:59
Speaker 1: just make stuff up, right, she was known for telling
59:03
Speaker 1: tall tales. And Sophie she had had an accident at
59:07
Speaker 1: an amusement park many years before which had resulted in
59:11
Speaker 1: her having brain damage. And this sort of pattern arising.
59:16
Speaker 1: And the neighbors like they back this up, Like they
59:18
Speaker 1: tell them that Sophie's a little strange, she has a
59:21
Speaker 1: habit of telling stories, you know. But the police not
59:26
Speaker 1: interested in that. For them, this is the smoking gun,
59:29
Speaker 1: this is the evidence they need to try Alice Crimins.
59:35
Speaker 1: And on the eleventh of September nineteen sixty seven, Alice
59:39
Speaker 1: was arrested and charged with the murder of her daughter.
59:43
Speaker 1: The trial doesn't start until May the following year, and
59:47
Speaker 1: in this trial, she's only charged with the murder of missy,
59:51
Speaker 1: and the evidence is dubiousic best. But there's this again,
59:57
Speaker 1: the court of public opinion. There is a whole razzal
1:00:01
Speaker 1: dazzle media circus surrounding this case. And it's such a
1:00:08
Speaker 1: horrible notion. It's such a terrible concept, the idea of
1:00:15
Speaker 1: a mother murdering her children, because mother's you know, it's
1:00:20
Speaker 1: expected that you are loving and nurturing a kind and
1:00:23
Speaker 1: that to do this, it's the complete opposite, you know,
1:00:28
Speaker 1: it is the flip of it, the uno reverse. And
1:00:33
Speaker 1: so she is being painted as this monster, this villain,
1:00:38
Speaker 1: who is a rejection of maternal instincts and femininity and
1:00:46
Speaker 1: instead is depravity personified. Alice is painted as a murderess
1:00:55
Speaker 1: who wanted to live her life free of the burden
1:00:57
Speaker 1: of her children, the very children she was fighting to
1:01:02
Speaker 1: keep custody off, and other theories suggested that, you know,
1:01:06
Speaker 1: she got rid of them to get back at her husband.
1:01:09
Speaker 1: And the prosecution's key witness was Sophie Ramersque, and so
1:01:16
Speaker 1: when she's on the stand, her story has changed at
1:01:19
Speaker 1: this point so many times, right, it's flipped and flopped,
1:01:28
Speaker 1: and Sophie testified and the jury don't know that this
1:01:32
Speaker 1: story's changed. They it's not informed, and the police don't
1:01:36
Speaker 1: care because they just want to pin this on Alice,
1:01:41
Speaker 1: and she's Sophie, Sophie, Sophie Sophie's she is. She talks
1:01:53
Speaker 1: to the jury and she gives us account. She points
1:01:56
Speaker 1: Alice out and she's like, I saw her walking with
1:02:01
Speaker 1: the children. I saw her take them. And then she
1:02:05
Speaker 1: goes also like I hear the children calling to me
1:02:10
Speaker 1: from their graves, and like it's at this point the
1:02:16
Speaker 1: police are like, Okay, that's now, please stop talking, like no, no, no, no, no.
1:02:20
Speaker 1: And so they then bring up Joe Rowick, right, They
1:02:24
Speaker 1: bring him up as another witness, and he claims that
1:02:30
Speaker 1: Alice had like broke down in tears and proclaimed that confessed,
1:02:35
Speaker 1: you know, that she had murdered the children and she
1:02:37
Speaker 1: saw it, right, And Joe is like, this happened, but
1:02:42
Speaker 1: I accidentally erased the tape that this recording is on.
1:02:47
Speaker 1: And Alice she just screams at him, right, She like
1:02:51
Speaker 1: calls him a liar and a snake, which he is.
1:02:54
Speaker 1: He is a snake, right, because like here's the thing.
1:02:57
Speaker 1: A couple days before this trial, he had proposed to
1:03:01
Speaker 1: her and she had said no, could it be something
1:03:06
Speaker 1: to do with the fact that she and he are
1:03:08
Speaker 1: both already married to other people. Like here's the thing,
1:03:14
Speaker 1: like her and the husband, like they try and they
1:03:20
Speaker 1: we can sell for a little while because they're both
1:03:22
Speaker 1: you know, upset at the tragic, tragic loss. It's not
1:03:27
Speaker 1: even a loss, it's a theft right of their children,
1:03:31
Speaker 1: and so they're seeking comfort in each other. But anyway, yeah,
1:03:38
Speaker 1: Joe proposed to her. She declined, and now he's saying
1:03:41
Speaker 1: that she confessed. What would he have done if she
1:03:44
Speaker 1: had said yes? When Alice was brought to the stand,
1:03:48
Speaker 1: like they just use this whole slut shaming, misogynistic angle
1:03:54
Speaker 1: and it's an all male jewry. So like they're already
1:03:58
Speaker 1: painting her as just a bad seed because women are
1:04:02
Speaker 1: supposed to be good little ladies, mother's wives and obey
1:04:06
Speaker 1: their husbands, and she's living her life which is bad.
1:04:11
Speaker 1: Like the DA questions her about this is weird, right,
1:04:16
Speaker 1: So they question her about swimming in Joe Rorick's pool, right,
1:04:22
Speaker 1: and so they like were you wearing a bathing suit?
1:04:24
Speaker 1: Where you're wearing no bathing suit? And the DA asks
1:04:27
Speaker 1: her on the stand, like where were your children when
1:04:31
Speaker 1: you were swimming with no bathing suit on in Joe
1:04:34
Speaker 1: Rorick's pool, and she looks him dead in the eye
1:04:38
Speaker 1: and says they were dead. And then he just starts
1:04:44
Speaker 1: listing out all of the men that she's been involved with,
1:04:48
Speaker 1: like all these dudes from her little black book, like
1:04:50
Speaker 1: they're just listing them. And it gets to the point
1:04:52
Speaker 1: that even the judge is like, what the fuck and
1:04:55
Speaker 1: has to stop him from doing it because he's like,
1:04:57
Speaker 1: this isn't a case about morals. This is a case
1:05:01
Speaker 1: about murdered children. Ken we plays focus on, you know,
1:05:06
Speaker 1: the horrific murder of two children. And so after thirteen days,
1:05:11
Speaker 1: the trial ended and the all male jewry returned a
1:05:16
Speaker 1: verdict of guilty of manslaughter in the first degree, and
1:05:20
Speaker 1: at her sentence and hearing, Alice just goes off, like
1:05:24
Speaker 1: she just starts getting in it with the judge. She
1:05:27
Speaker 1: tells him like he doesn't care who killed her kids,
1:05:29
Speaker 1: that they've closed her case and they just do not
1:05:32
Speaker 1: give a shit, right, and she is just so wired
1:05:36
Speaker 1: and upset and because of this like outburst, she ends
1:05:39
Speaker 1: up being hospitalized for two weeks after the conviction, and
1:05:45
Speaker 1: when she's actually well enough, she gets transferred to prison,
1:05:47
Speaker 1: and what do you know, she's a model prisoner. She
1:05:52
Speaker 1: takes on secretarial work there, and no one that she
1:05:55
Speaker 1: works for, like in the prison ever has any issues
1:05:59
Speaker 1: with her. Ever, and Alice, she wants to clear her name.
1:06:04
Speaker 1: And so she gets this new lawyer, Herbert Lyon, who's
1:06:07
Speaker 1: like this big wig New York lawyer, and he believed
1:06:11
Speaker 1: that she wasn't guilty, right, and so him and his partner,
1:06:14
Speaker 1: William Erlbaum, they don't charge her anything like, they do
1:06:17
Speaker 1: this pro bono and he's convinced that she's innocent and
1:06:23
Speaker 1: so and so they managed to get the first trial
1:06:26
Speaker 1: just like flipped because that first trial is absolute bollocks.
1:06:31
Speaker 1: You've got people that were clearly coached, like you don't
1:06:34
Speaker 1: have really good cross examination really because those two people
1:06:39
Speaker 1: were seriously lying. And so the second trial on March
1:06:45
Speaker 1: the fifteenth in nineteen seventy one. So this is, you know,
1:06:50
Speaker 1: many years after her children have been murdered and she's
1:06:55
Speaker 1: finally getting this trial. But this time like because first
1:06:58
Speaker 1: time she was only charged with Missy and this time
1:07:02
Speaker 1: it's the murder of Missy and Eddie Junior. There is
1:07:07
Speaker 1: a lot riding on this and the defense team like
1:07:10
Speaker 1: they are going at it, like they show that Sophie's
1:07:13
Speaker 1: talking bullshit and so is like Joe, they've been coached.
1:07:17
Speaker 1: And this trial, I mean it's a whole like it's
1:07:20
Speaker 1: another razzal dazzle media circus. Right, it's so sensationalized that
1:07:24
Speaker 1: the jury is just like they're just swayed. And here's
1:07:29
Speaker 1: the thing. Like another neighbor comes forward and they're like, oh,
1:07:32
Speaker 1: I saw people traveling down the road that night. I
1:07:35
Speaker 1: saw this couple walking and saying this. And then this
1:07:40
Speaker 1: family come forward, right, Marvin Weinstein, he comes forward and
1:07:46
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, actually, me, my wife and my dog
1:07:50
Speaker 1: were the ones walking the street that night. It was
1:07:52
Speaker 1: us that they saw, not Alice. Right, But the jury
1:07:57
Speaker 1: comes back with the harshest verdict guilty of first degree
1:08:04
Speaker 1: murder in Eddie Junior's death and first degree manslaughter and
1:08:07
Speaker 1: missus death. And as the guilty verdict is read out,
1:08:12
Speaker 1: like people just burst into tears in the courtroom. Her mother,
1:08:17
Speaker 1: like Alice's mother, like she's sobbing. Her brother is like
1:08:21
Speaker 1: screaming that she's innocent. Her ex husband is there because
1:08:25
Speaker 1: ed her and Eddie got divorced, like he's there and
1:08:28
Speaker 1: he's shouting about how she didn't do it. Like even
1:08:32
Speaker 1: the lawyer is, like, I proved that all of their
1:08:35
Speaker 1: case against you was bullshit. And yet here we are,
1:08:40
Speaker 1: and Alice she's convinced that at this point she's going
1:08:42
Speaker 1: to spend the rest of her life behind bars, right
1:08:46
Speaker 1: forever done. And so March nineteen seventy one, she's in prison.
1:08:54
Speaker 1: And then two years later, the New York Supreme Court
1:09:00
Speaker 1: rules that her murder conviction has to be overturned because
1:09:06
Speaker 1: Eddie Junior, Remember, his cause of death was never determined,
1:09:12
Speaker 1: Like they couldn't prove anything, right, they had nothing to prove,
1:09:18
Speaker 1: and so they didn't have an official cause of death,
1:09:21
Speaker 1: so she could not be blamed for his murder. Yeah,
1:09:25
Speaker 1: and Joe Rowick's testimony was prejudicial, and so this is overturned,
1:09:32
Speaker 1: right nineteen seventy three. Then two years after that, in
1:09:36
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, the New York State Court of Appeals
1:09:39
Speaker 1: reinstates her manslaughter verdict for the murder of Missing And
1:09:44
Speaker 1: the court argued that because the jury in each trial
1:09:47
Speaker 1: had found her criminally responsible for the death, that she
1:09:51
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been acquitted, like it wouldn't have been overturned,
1:09:54
Speaker 1: you know, if those errors hadn't been discovered. And two
1:09:58
Speaker 1: years after that, seventy seven, twelve years after the murders
1:10:03
Speaker 1: of her children, Alice was finally released on parole. And
1:10:08
Speaker 1: when she gets out, she marries Tony Grace Right, and
1:10:14
Speaker 1: the two of them they moved to Key Largo in Florida,
1:10:19
Speaker 1: and they just lived in Florida together, and sometimes she'd
1:10:24
Speaker 1: be seen on Tony's yacht, but for the most part
1:10:27
Speaker 1: she was left alone. Now Tony he passes away in
1:10:32
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, and Alice she just kind of lived
1:10:39
Speaker 1: out her days in Florida like she might. Is she
1:10:41
Speaker 1: still live? I couldn't find out if she was no
1:10:45
Speaker 1: longer with us or not. But yes, so ends the
1:10:48
Speaker 1: story of Alice Crimmins, a woman whose conviction was based
1:10:53
Speaker 1: entirely in the court of public opinion. And we will
1:10:58
Speaker 1: never probably know what happened to those two children that night,
1:11:02
Speaker 1: and I think neither will she. So if you liked
1:11:09
Speaker 1: my retelling of this terrible, horrible, depressing story, feel free
1:11:13
Speaker 1: to rate and review five stars. If you don't want
1:11:15
Speaker 1: to rate and review five stars, don't say anything at all.
1:11:19
Speaker 1: It's fine, it's cool. So yes, to everyone. I just
1:11:25
Speaker 1: want to say thank you for listening. I know I'm
1:11:29
Speaker 1: late getting this out this time. There's been a lot
1:11:31
Speaker 1: going on with everything, and so recommendation time for watching.
1:11:38
Speaker 1: I'm going to recommend poker Face. It's got a bit
1:11:41
Speaker 1: of a Columbo vibe to it, like it Butt with
1:11:44
Speaker 1: Natasha Leon, so you know it's good. It's good time
1:11:47
Speaker 1: for reading. I've got Captive Queen by Jade Scott. It's
1:11:52
Speaker 1: about Mary Quina Scott's it's a decent raid. If you
1:11:56
Speaker 1: like your historical fact, go read it. And for listening,
1:12:01
Speaker 1: I'm going to recommend one of my history b f
1:12:03
Speaker 1: F's Vulgar History. Go listen to Anne. She's fabulous. She's
1:12:08
Speaker 1: part of the TETs Out Brigade. You'll know when you know. Okay,
1:12:12
Speaker 1: and what's that. I'm gonna wish you good night. Adieus
1:12:18
Speaker 1: Au revoir of widzem My Friends, Baby