Latest / ZoukNerds • Learn | Build | Belong / Double Standards: What Are We Actually Protecting? (S05 Ep75)

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Double Standards: What Are We Actually Protecting? (S05 Ep75) · ZoukNerds • Learn | Build | Belong

0:00
It happened a couple years ago when I posted a video on
0:03
Instagram dancing with Brenda and then as a response to that
0:06
video I got some messages asking me to take down the video and
0:10
making the connection that I danced in.
0:11
That manifestation was not a good manifestation to be
0:15
displayed in video. Look, this is an art form,
0:19
right? It's dense, so we can look at it
0:22
from many different perspectives.
0:24
We come from a culture, a partner dancing that embraces
0:29
the embrace it has, it has a sensuality and it has all
0:32
aspects of sexuality involved. So if you are having fun or if
0:36
you're performing it and you are making sexual movements, then
0:41
it's OK because it was just for play, it was just for fun.
0:44
But then if a couple that has a true relationship or friendship
0:49
or intimacy do that, then it's too much because it's true.
0:53
This is the biggest thing at social media.
0:56
Just makes things I think bigger than what they really are.
1:00
Issue for me is if we start to cut everything in order to make
1:04
the desk like a perfect accessible thing that is always
1:09
going to look the same way, I fear that we might start to
1:12
strip away the artistic aspects of it.
1:18
When does a dance cross the line from artistic connection to over
1:23
sexualized? Why is it OK to be sexy on stage
1:28
but scandalous when it's just two friends dancing in a video?
1:32
Are we being unfair with how we judge different expressions
1:37
within dance? Well, let's find out.
1:41
Hello hello everyone and welcome back to Zook Nerds.
1:45
In this episode, Key and I take a serious but open look at
1:49
double standards in our community.
1:52
We talk about Gee's own experience with online
1:55
criticism, why we applaud some dancers while judging others,
2:00
and how to see the layers of a dance.
2:03
Before we react, let's talk about how to protect our own
2:08
dance without losing the freedom to be ourselves.
2:12
So let's go. Hello, hello everyone, my name
2:23
is Alison Senji and let's welcome back our beautiful Co
2:27
host GI Brad, the Hello GI all the way from Sydney once again.
2:31
Yes. Hello, Alison.
2:32
Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Zook and Nerds.
2:36
And today we're going to be discussing a topic that for a
2:39
very long time we wanted to bring here for a discussion.
2:43
But as some of the other topics that we've been discussing
2:47
recently, we were waiting for the right moment, the moment
2:52
that we felt confident enough with our own research, with our
2:57
own thoughts, to actually bring this here for us to discuss.
3:02
And the topic for today is the double standards.
3:07
What is it, what exactly we want to talk about?
3:11
There's been a lot of discussions over the years of
3:14
what is right, what is wrong, what is a good representation of
3:18
the dance, what is not a good representation of the dance.
3:23
And yeah, it's a big one that it's up for interpretation, of
3:29
course, depending on what lens you're looking from, from the
3:34
most traditional to the most alternative.
3:37
And I want to give the microphone to Ghee to start this
3:40
conversation because Ghee has had the lenses on him and I
3:47
think that would be a great way to start.
3:49
How was that experience for you guy when the lenses and the
3:54
spotlights were on you in this topic of double standards?
3:59
Yeah, it happened a couple years ago when I posted a video on
4:04
Instagram dancing with Brenda. And in that video in the
4:08
caption, I put like fire or hot stuff like this because in the
4:13
dance we were very close face to face with each other.
4:17
We are looking each other very close, nose to nose, eye gazing.
4:21
And then we will have movements a little bit more wish, wish,
4:24
wish a little bit faster and dynamic and then go back to look
4:27
at each other. Sophie very steamy in the sense
4:32
of eye contact, deep eye contact, fast movement and stop.
4:36
So creating that contrast and when I posted a video, my
4:42
intention was to show this different side of me, not this
4:46
different side of power dance, this different side of the dance
4:49
and this different possibility inside the realm of the dance as
4:53
well. And then as a response to that
4:55
video, I got some messages asking me to take down the
4:59
video. And in the request to take down
5:03
the video, the main argument was that it was a misrepresentation
5:09
of the dance, it was over sexualized and what other people
5:14
would think if they saw the video.
5:17
And then there was a lot of back and forth and stuff like that
5:21
with the person who messaged me. And the person who messaged me
5:24
messaged me in the name of a couple of other people who also
5:29
got in touch with them because they were closer to me.
5:32
And I said that I wouldn't remove the video, but I would be
5:35
open to explain a little bit more what the video is about in
5:39
the caption. Because it was one of my best
5:42
friends, someone that I love deeply.
5:46
And we were having a dance. That was true, though we were
5:50
not acting up or anything. It was a truthful demonstration
5:54
of connection between me and her.
5:57
And the backlash that came from that was, this is too much.
6:02
People will think these people think that.
6:04
And I remember one of the things that the person said, it was,
6:09
imagine if your girlfriend was dancing with a guy like this.
6:13
And then my response was, I would actually enjoy.
6:17
I actually enjoyed that because for me, she'll be having fun.
6:20
She's having a good time. She's clearly having a good time
6:24
because I was able to work all the concepts of jealousy and,
6:29
you know, being threatened by someone else that has a dance
6:33
better than me. You know, I walked this through
6:35
in my social dance life. Well, it was interesting to see
6:38
that argument and making the connection that I danced like
6:42
that and making the connection that I danced in that
6:45
manifestation was not a good manifestation to be displayed in
6:52
video. So that sparked for me a lot of
6:56
reflection because in to my lenses to my execution of the
7:01
dance as I was dancing, it was, you know, connection of two
7:06
people who care deeply about each other.
7:09
There's somebody filming that and and let me show that to
7:14
people in my social media, to other people, to other set of
7:18
eyes to scandalous too much, too much.
7:23
So that's how it started for me. Like this conversation is
7:27
observation because for the longest time in my partner dance
7:32
journey, in my partner dance training, we were actually
7:36
invited to tap into these different modes.
7:40
Tap into the modes of the really gentlemanly, really poised, you
7:44
know, like super elegance kind of vibe and being connected to
7:50
the playful sides where we play. We're not caring too much about
7:54
our lines and our posture. And we also connect to our
7:58
flirty sides that to dead modes that you go in, that you look in
8:01
the eye, that you express desire in the platonic waiting because
8:07
you're playing the character that does that.
8:10
And connecting with these different modes that we would
8:13
call the archetypes. We're connecting with the
8:15
archetypes and how that makes us feel when we were dancing.
8:19
Connect the archetypes to different music, connecting the
8:22
archetypes to different dances and expressing that.
8:26
So I was never exposed to the idea that there was wrong about
8:30
that. That when somebody sees that,
8:32
they will think this and this and this and that.
8:34
Which I think is a result of the age of social media, Which I
8:38
think is a result of the very short attention span that people
8:41
have. And the very small space for
8:46
people to look up things a bit more, to try to understand
8:49
things a bit more, understand context, understand what's
8:52
happening. Just a quick judgement based on
8:55
what they are seeing right there, right there and their
8:59
values, the way that they understand the world and the way
9:02
that they express how they understand this world.
9:07
So for me, it's a combination of all of these factors and in
9:12
partner dancing, because we have so many different manifestations
9:16
of the same dance that Brazilian Zook and not only Brazilian Zook
9:20
guys, because how long for how many years and still happens
9:25
Tango is associated with sensuality.
9:28
How many years tango is associated with a rose in the
9:32
mouth and faces. There was even this myth that
9:36
you only danced tango series, then you only dance tango,
9:40
seducing each other to the point that when I start to see me
9:44
longer, I start to see tango where people are dancing happy
9:47
and smiling and playing. Initially I was like, wait,
9:51
wait, whoa, whoa. It's not Tango's not like that.
9:54
Tango's supposed to be serious. Tango's supposed to be I'm
9:57
seducing you. Tango's supposed to be I'm the
9:59
macho and I am the lady. You know, even I experienced
10:03
that. So just the set of judgements
10:07
that we have running all the time and because of social
10:12
media, we feel brave. I don't feel brave to go and
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write very mean things, very intense comments on people's
10:23
posts when they don't agree with what you're seeing or reading.
10:27
So yeah, that's how it starts from me.
10:30
Alison, I don't know how you want to take from here in your
10:34
experience of this, perhaps as the person witnessing this
10:37
videos, as the person who is, you know, on the other side.
10:41
Because now I just gave a little bit of the perspective of
10:44
somebody who had someone come to them and ask them to take down
10:47
something that they put out, you know?
10:50
So how is it for you watching all of this?
10:54
Well, for me, I think it all comes down to context, just like
10:58
what you mentioned in the middle of your report.
11:02
Look, this is an art form, right?
11:05
It's dense. So we can look at it from many
11:09
different perspectives. Thinking about a stage, think
11:13
about a performance, a choreography.
11:16
There is a context, there is a story, there is something that
11:21
the artists are trying to say with that performance, right?
11:26
So when I look at a video on social media, I try to
11:31
understand what is the context behind that video?
11:35
Is it something like you're in a party and you're trying to
11:38
promote the Brazilian zoo community?
11:41
To me, there's a certain dance that I would bring to show to
11:45
that crowd in that context. But if I'm in a special place
11:51
with somebody who can record me and my dance partner at that
11:56
time, we may have an artistic choice to choose a certain song
12:01
and dance a certain way to tell a certain story.
12:05
So understanding that context, I will look at that dance in a
12:11
different way. I'm not going to judge that
12:13
dance as this is true Brazilian Zook or a good or bad
12:19
representation of the dance because the context is
12:23
different. Before we started recording, I
12:26
was telling you that yesterday as I was flying, I was watching
12:31
2 separate comedians that were doing a special on Netflix and
12:36
they were talking about how as a stand up comedian you are
12:41
performing an act. You are a person delivering
12:45
lines that sometimes can push certain buttons that are not
12:52
buttons that they would necessarily push if they were
12:54
having a one to one conversation with somebody because they're
12:58
performing an act. So we can bring that
13:01
conversation to demos, to Jack and Jill's, to shows in the
13:06
Brazilians of community where we have seen certain behaviors or
13:12
certain moves that sometimes can sexualize the partnership in
13:17
dense and they are somewhat rewarded by the audience, by the
13:23
judges or by social media likes and shares.
13:27
And those are, in my opinion, representations of sexualization
13:31
of the dance that I would disagree with being a good
13:36
representation of the community. But then I do try to think, OK,
13:43
this is a show, this is a bit, this is a moment that has a
13:49
different context, right? So the artist in that dance can
13:54
choose to represent and tell a certain story.
13:58
Now, always judging. That could be the judges in a
14:03
competition, could be the audience watching that show, and
14:07
it could be the people on social media, whether approving or
14:12
disapproving. And that's where we start to get
14:16
really, really tricky about it. In this context of this
14:20
conversation. We are only talking about dance.
14:22
But honestly, look at the world out there.
14:24
We can see the same thing happening to pretty much any
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topic you can talk about in this 2024-2025, 2026 situation,
14:35
right? There's a huge division of
14:38
opinion of what's right, what's wrong, what we should be
14:41
supporting, what we shouldn't be supporting.
14:44
And that's kind of where I am right now.
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I'm looking at things in a contextual way, and I'm trying
14:52
my best to look at things from the artist's lens or from
14:59
whoever's lens, whether it's a politician, whether it's a
15:04
dancer or somebody in the world that is expressing a certain
15:08
opinion that is polarizing. When we look at dance, for
15:13
example, Brazilian Zook, we have lambada, OK?
15:17
If we look at lambada as a source, there is multiple
15:21
variations of the dance that goes back to lambada.
15:26
We can go all the way from the closest to lambada to the
15:31
furthest from lambada, and we can see all of them as Brazilian
15:37
Zook. So much so that there is a lot
15:42
of discussion online right now and for many, many, many years
15:46
about how other dance styles, such as bachata are using a lot
15:51
of Brazilian Zook moves and techniques.
15:53
And people say, oh, you know, if you just turn off the music,
15:57
it's just Brazilian Zook. That's how recognizable the
16:00
dance is because of the shapes and forms and waves and things
16:05
that the dance displays. So when an artist chooses to
16:10
express a certain feeling or tell a story through the dance,
16:15
to me, it's not my place to judge what they're doing.
16:21
It's only my place to understand if I like it or not or if I
16:27
would support the reproduction of it.
16:32
And by reproduction, I mean like, would I want to dance like
16:36
that and showcase that? I think that's the only seat
16:40
that I'm comfortable taking. I'm not comfortable in saying
16:44
this is right, this is wrong. I'm just comfortable saying
16:48
that, look, this is something that I would do or something
16:52
that I wouldn't do. That's why I am with this topic.
16:55
Yeah. I think for me, the thing that
16:59
gets to me the most is, and there are two things.
17:03
The first one is to try to say that our dance, that Brazilian
17:06
Zook dance is not a sensual dance, is not a sexual dance.
17:10
I want to refer back before I could, Chief, to our episodes
17:14
that we talk about sexual energy and we break down the five uses
17:20
of sexual energy, right. So reproduction, pleasure,
17:27
creativity, inspiration and growth.
17:30
Yeah. So the sexual energy as this
17:33
overarching term that encompasses this five different
17:39
flows of energy that can go through your body.
17:42
So in any form of movement, of connected art, we have sexual
17:48
energy flowing and sensuality, We use our senses, we dance
17:53
close to our partners, we have eye contact, we have physical
17:56
contact. Even if you're just holding
17:57
hands, your senses are involved. So by default, our art form and
18:04
many other art forms, they incorporate these two elements,
18:08
you know, and we are a culture of dances that dance close to
18:13
each other. Our first dance that came out
18:16
that was exported was mashishi. And mashishi was considered
18:21
scandalous by the society at the time because we were dancing the
18:25
embrace, but it went outside of Brazil.
18:29
You know, Connie Miranda was singing Mashishi, Fred Astaire
18:32
was dancing mashishi. And then we moved to for Hall,
18:36
which is another very popular cultural expression of partner
18:39
dance that we dance in an embrace, that we have songs that
18:43
says feel their smell, put your head on their heads, cheek to
18:49
cheek. We have Bolero and the songs
18:52
have dancing cheek to cheek as a sweet thing.
18:55
You know what I mean? And then we have these songs in
18:59
Faja that ask you to smell the hair, smell the neck does in
19:04
English, doesn't sound good at all, but in the Portuguese way
19:07
of saying these words don't shit in like a little bit of a smell.
19:12
We see these things as sweet. And then we see people in the
19:15
floor dancing with their hairs. Like you don't know which head
19:19
is which head. You know what I mean?
19:21
We come from a culture, a partner dancing that embraces
19:27
the embrace. It has the embrace, it has the
19:29
closure, it has a sensuality, and it has all aspects of
19:32
sensuality involved. So trying to say that our dance
19:35
doesn't have these things. For me, I don't even know the
19:39
word for that. If it's trying to negate what is
19:42
right there or if it's trying to be delusional.
19:46
I don't even know how to define this.
19:50
But our dance has its components and we'll have We are body
19:53
rolling each other. We are sometimes face rolling
19:57
each other. The face roll.
19:59
Which used to be. Subject to stone throwing is now
20:05
something that people do in competition that can use and
20:08
people applaud just to see how quickly things change, you know?
20:14
And the second thing and picking back on what is said now,
20:17
somebody who is watching and trying to grasp context, for me,
20:22
it's related to your perception of what over sexualization is
20:28
and what you find acceptable and what you don't find acceptable.
20:34
I think I talked about this quote sometimes before in our
20:38
podcast here, but it's a quote that I really like that says the
20:43
ability to observe without evaluating is the highest form
20:46
of intelligence. We observe similar behaviors,
20:52
similar body behaviors, similar body expressions, and one of
20:56
them we consider to be too much over sexualized and other than
21:00
we consider to be acceptable. And a couple years ago, another
21:04
video resurfaced of somebody dancing eye to eye, face to
21:09
face, sweaty hairs, blah blah. And then people came strong
21:13
because my main issue is how strong people come after when
21:19
they see something that they don't agree.
21:21
And I made an exercise because in that same year, the 1st place
21:28
of a Jack and Jill in a Congress also had displays also have
21:32
things that they were doing with their bodies that could also be
21:35
considered over sexualized. But instead of being criticized,
21:39
they were applauded, literally applauded by the crowd.
21:43
I took these two videos to my late grandmother and showed to
21:46
her. And I said, grandma, what do you
21:48
think of these two videos here? And it was a fascinating process
21:52
to see her watching, to see her faces watching the video.
21:57
And then in the end, she found both to be too much.
22:01
She doesn't know the dance. She saw some of my videos.
22:05
So her reference of the dance was very limited.
22:07
But I showed to her the two moments that were the object of
22:12
controversy and in both situations she felt bothered by
22:18
it. So my invitation has always been
22:23
of awareness. Noticing when you see a display
22:28
of what could be considered over sexualized movements in the
22:31
dance and you find that to be acceptable, why?
22:37
And then when you see another one and you find that not to be
22:40
acceptable, why? Why that's not acceptable, Why
22:44
this one is acceptable? And I've taken this question to
22:47
many different people actually. And one of the answers that came
22:52
out stronger to me, Alison, and we didn't talk about this
22:55
before, is the non acceptable one.
23:00
It might not be because it's more truthful.
23:04
The ones that are more acceptable, they are playing,
23:08
they are performing, they are just entertaining the crowd.
23:13
And the other one, that one is true, this a couple with people
23:19
who know each other and they are really feeling these things and
23:22
the displays of over sexualized, considered over sexualized
23:27
patterns and stuff in one is more subtle because you know,
23:33
it's a true connection that is happening there in the context
23:36
of partner dancing. The other one is more
23:39
exaggerated because it's coming in the context of a performance
23:43
of a competition. So it's almost like you're all
23:47
watching Beyoncé on the stage and she has very little clothes
23:51
on and that's fine. Like woo Hoo, amazing.
23:54
They look to the side. Your girlfriend has the same
23:57
outfit and like, no, no, you can't.
24:00
You know what I mean? So why she can't and why she
24:03
can't, you know, so why 35,000 sahadas is OK and why eye to eye
24:12
is not OK? So that's the biggest invitation
24:15
for us to think. And that's where I think the
24:18
double standards are. Why I can't applaud this and why
24:21
I need to crucify this. So how do you go about all of
24:26
these, Anderson? Because I think this is the
24:27
thing that gets to me the most, and this is my biggest source of
24:31
wandering, source of wanting to say, wanting to reflect.
24:38
Oh man, this is so tough because I try to look from the widest
24:44
perspective as possible. I try to really put myself into
24:47
everyone's seat as best as I can to understand.
24:53
Why do they think that way? That's how my brain works.
24:56
That's how I try to do things with everything in my life.
25:01
So when it comes to those topics, I'm reading all the
25:04
comments. I'm doing my own research,
25:07
looking at things outside of dance and then inside of dance
25:11
and try to understand because I'm very curious about human
25:15
behavior and human assessment about things that happen in
25:20
life. And when it comes to dancing, I
25:23
see that there is this thing that some people can even call
25:28
it sort of a Brazilian energy to make fun of things even when
25:36
they're sexualized. So if you are having fun or if
25:41
you're performing it and you are making sexual movements, then
25:48
it's OK 'cause it was just for play, it was just for fun.
25:53
But then if a couple that has a true relationship or friendship
25:58
or intimacy do that, then it's too much because it's true.
26:04
That's very, very tricky because just like the example that I
26:10
shared earlier about the comedians, if the comedians are
26:13
saying those things in an act as they are being recorded by
26:17
Netflix, it's OK. Nobody gets cancelled.
26:20
But if it's an interview where they're talking, you know, face
26:24
to face with a reporter or somebody who is interviewing
26:29
them in a podcast, then it's a problem.
26:32
But then why? Why is that the case?
26:35
Why do we see a performance as something that is OK?
26:41
Well, like I said before, if it's on a stage and they're
26:43
trying to tell a story, it's one thing.
26:46
But if they're being representatives of a certain
26:50
community, then I think it can be an issue because what about
26:55
all of the people who are new to the community and they don't
26:59
have the history understanding, they don't have the context
27:03
understanding that we have, for example, oh, we can look at it
27:09
and we can put that into a category of like, you know, if
27:13
it's for fun, it's OK. People who are new to the
27:17
community, they don't understand that they might look at it and
27:21
go like, oh, if the teachers do, or if I see that on the stage,
27:25
in a show, in a performance, or if I see that in a competition,
27:30
then it's OK because all of those things are a high level
27:35
representation of the dance and they are being promoted, they're
27:39
being shared, they're being liked and they're being
27:41
applauded. It's very tricky.
27:44
It's very tricky. It's something that within
27:47
myself and within my communities, I try to invite
27:53
everybody to always look at it from different perspectives and
27:58
to see how the intent and the context can affect the thing
28:05
that you're watching, or also your own environment can affect
28:10
how you judge that. There are places around the
28:14
world where just holding hands is just too much, right?
28:19
You can be very, very heavily penalized just for holding hands
28:25
in public. But then there are other places
28:28
that you can be naked in the park and it's totally fine.
28:32
So this is the biggest thing about the world.
28:36
It's a complex place full of complex people and so many
28:41
differences that social media just makes things, I think,
28:45
bigger than what they really are.
28:48
A lot of the times people will just blow things out of the
28:52
water just because, you know, like division, polarization, all
28:58
of those things. They create traffic on social
29:01
media. They create likes, they create
29:03
shares, brah. It's such a unique time right
29:06
now that it's almost hard for me to stay focused within the dance
29:11
because there's so much else that I actually want to talk
29:14
about. But I'm like, bro, in my head,
29:16
I'm talking to myself here. That has nothing to do with
29:19
dance. But at the same time, it has so
29:22
much to do with how we are reacting to things in dance,
29:26
right? That extreme behavior that we
29:29
see on social media about all of the things happening in the
29:33
world, they are affecting our family behaviors and
29:37
interactions. They're affecting our
29:38
friendships and the way we used to like somebody and now we
29:44
don't like them because they have a different view from us.
29:47
And in the dense community, the way sometimes people and
29:53
expressions are penalized just because they're not the ones
29:57
that I uphold or that I believe or they are not the ones that
30:01
somebody told me that I should support or not.
30:06
Because I do question how many people actually believe in that
30:10
or how many people are actually in an echo chamber that they're
30:15
just going with the crowd, right, Instead of actually
30:19
looking at it and going, you know, that doesn't offend me at
30:23
all. I don't know why people are
30:25
thinking that this is offensive or sexualized or anything that,
30:32
you know, splits the opinion in the crowd.
30:35
Yeah, I think we are constantly confronted with our own bias at
30:40
all times and seeing from the perspective of a facilitator, an
30:46
organizer, and someone who wants to protect this environment that
30:51
we hold so dear, 'cause sometimes I see the aggressive
30:55
responses as a desire to protect, a desire to nurture and
31:01
protect an environment that they hold dear and they find it to be
31:05
important in their lives and they don't want anything to
31:08
destroy that environment. So they protected fiercely,
31:12
fearlessly. What are those two?
31:16
So they protected that. So when they see something that
31:19
they consider they might destroy it, they will go for it.
31:23
And I understand that 100%, you know, and the invitation is
31:30
perhaps to do how it was done to me.
31:33
You know, the person had the grace to get in touch with me
31:36
directly and say, bra, let's talk about this thing.
31:41
You know, versus that person could have gone straight on the
31:45
comments and boom, destroyed everything.
31:48
I had some hints in my comments, but the person came to me and
31:53
talked to me, which gave me the chance to talk, to explain and,
31:58
you know, and come to a conclusion kind of what is this
32:02
to be done? Maybe agree to disagree.
32:05
Even if it's agreed to disagree. Yeah.
32:09
So putting myself in these shoes, I understand 100%.
32:14
Putting myself in the shoes of someone who also wants to
32:17
protect the culture, I also understand when there's a big
32:21
risk of misrepresentation of what the dance is, you know?
32:26
Which makes me think of another thing too, which is very
32:29
concerning. How much we are being moved by
32:31
fear, how much we are being moved by this constant
32:36
insecurity that something's going to happen unless being
32:40
moved by understanding, compassion.
32:45
You know, Gary, so I've seen certain videos and certain
32:50
manifestations of the dance that I could perceive.
32:55
Like, I just want to say, if somebody doesn't know anything
32:57
about the dance and they watched it, I can't perceive.
33:01
They look at it and say, oh, this is not for me.
33:03
It's really not for me or looking at that, at the
33:06
perception and looking at that small one minute video with no
33:10
knowledge of the dance and make very quick judgments.
33:13
Oh, this is not a dance for couples like I heard.
33:16
It's one of the fears that they have.
33:18
People have this fear that people look at it and say, oh, I
33:22
cannot take my family there or I need to be single to be this
33:27
dance. I can see that being a thing.
33:30
You know, the issue for me is if we start to cut everything in
33:38
order to make the desk like a perfect accessible thing that is
33:43
always going to look the same way and it's always going to be
33:46
the same. I fear that we might start to
33:50
strip away the artistic aspects of it in certain forms, the
33:56
different manifestations of it, while at the same time it's
34:00
still doing all the other stuff. It's still, you know, dancing in
34:05
its full capacity, but just not wanting to show that.
34:09
So you just want to show these parts here of the dance.
34:12
It's very curated, you know, careful part of the dance.
34:15
We show this one, this one here, we don't show.
34:19
Let's show later when people are ready.
34:22
It's so complex that it starts to create so many variants and
34:26
so many variables that it becomes very difficult to just
34:30
express, to just go ahead and show what is it that you are
34:35
feeling inside of you. So I'm seeing all of this coming
34:37
from a place of understanding the fears, understanding why
34:42
people want to protect and why people become sometimes so
34:46
intense when they say that they don't agree.
34:51
And my invitation is for people to like I just was saying
34:54
observe, see the context, reach out, understand a little bit
34:59
better because I think we are all wanting something very
35:03
similar. We are all wanting the scene to
35:06
grow and to bring more people in.
35:10
We're all wanting to dance this dance in the way that we find it
35:14
good for us, good for our bodies, good for our souls.
35:18
And we also wanted to share this with more people, you know, So
35:23
there is a ongoing desire to make the dance grow, to bring
35:26
more people in, so more people can feel how good the dance is.
35:31
And for that, I think it's good if we start to understand each
35:34
other a little bit more or a lot more in the ways in which we
35:37
dance the dance. The big issue for me is when we
35:42
start to under 2 very similar manifestations that are
35:48
considered sexualization. 1 is accepted, 1 is not accepted, you
35:54
know, and those who accept this one go on this that don't accept
35:58
the other one because normally those who accept this one hold
36:01
more power. So this is the main thing for me
36:05
is that we try more to have talks and like Allison said, I
36:09
agree to disagree. But we had a talk before.
36:13
If that happens already, it'll be so cool and it'll be already
36:18
very different than what is happening the rest of the world
36:21
and the rest of our lives and all the situations that we are
36:23
facing. That's exactly why I always say
36:27
that I have this overlord that helps me with all of decisions
36:32
and the overlord is the community.
36:35
When I am sitting on that seat and I'm listening to the
36:38
overlord, which is the community, and I'm looking at
36:43
those situations, I will for sure have an opinion.
36:48
OK, This represents the community that I want to bring.
36:51
This doesn't. But when I'm looking as a
36:54
dancer, as an individual with my personal opinions about what I
36:59
think about it, then it's a completely different thing.
37:03
And that's the discussion that I think people bring to when
37:07
they're polarizing what is and what is not.
37:12
So they will look at a video and go like, well, you know, that's
37:15
not a good representation of Brazilian Zook.
37:17
This is bad for the community. And this is going to destroy the
37:21
Brazilian Zook community. OK, I hear your argument, But is
37:27
this argument because you're trying to grow the community or
37:32
is that a personal opinion that you truly believe that this has
37:36
no place to ever exist? Because I think both can exist,
37:42
at least for me, both can exist. As a community leader, I think
37:47
there's a place and time for each different expression of the
37:51
dance. As a dancer, if I'm watching,
37:55
the only thing that concerns me is if the place and time is what
38:00
I think is appropriate, not the dance itself.
38:04
The dance itself can be whatever they want to be, but the place
38:08
and moment is something that concerns me.
38:11
That's the only thing. So I think people need to
38:14
understand that because like I said before, when people do this
38:19
in a show or a competition or some sort of performance, it's
38:24
excused as this is fine, this is OK, this is just for show, for
38:29
entertainment. So then people were clearly
38:33
saying that the reason why this is OK, it's because it's showing
38:38
a performance. They're not really saying
38:41
whether they think it's right or wrong.
38:43
And people need to understand that and they probably need to
38:47
even think about that if they haven't yet.
38:50
And then when they look at a dance of a couple doing
38:54
something beautiful in a video where they are getting more
38:57
intimate, is this right or wrong as an expression of the dance?
39:02
Or is it right or wrong because you don't want other people to
39:05
think that this is the community?
39:07
Like, there's so many layers. And the irritation for this
39:10
episode is for this, for everybody to actually try to
39:15
look at things in different ways in different layers and see
39:19
where that conversation might be actually influencing you to
39:26
maybe change your own belief or change how you see the world.
39:31
That's the biggest problem right now with the way algorithm and
39:36
social media works. You know, a lot of the times
39:39
you're not seeing the things that are happening.
39:41
You're seeing the things that the algorithm knows that is
39:46
going to keep you scrolling for longer time and showing more ads
39:50
to you in the app. It's not like, oh, this is the
39:53
reality. I don't know, maybe I'm treading
39:58
in some conspiracy theories here guys, but as far as I
40:03
understand, the algorithm is designed to make money for the
40:08
ads, right? That's how it works in social
40:10
media. And if I'm wrong, please put
40:13
that in the comments. But it's an incentive that the
40:18
algorithm has to show you more things that are going to confirm
40:23
your bias. That's just how it works.
40:26
So I think we have to really be careful with what we believe.
40:31
We really need to do our own research for any topic out
40:36
there, but also do our research internally and understand your
40:44
own opinion, not what your friend said, not what your
40:47
teacher said, not what somebody in a higher position of power
40:53
said. Try to understand what you
40:54
really, really, really believe because I think that's the only
40:58
way to stay sane in this crazy world that we live in.
41:04
And I don't believe it's going to get any easier.
41:07
So I think to stay sane now and to build a thicker skin for the
41:12
future as it gets crazier and crazier, we need to build some
41:18
systems to make sure that we have thick skin.
41:23
And we also have a very deep understanding of how we feel.
41:28
This is a topic that we wanted to bring here for the nerds
41:31
because it's a topic that is pertinent to our dance
41:35
community, we believe. But you know, it's something
41:39
that it's a global thing, people outside of the dense communities
41:44
also experiencing. But we're here to talk as Zook
41:48
nerds. Yeah.
41:50
And time and time again, it comes back and resurfaces
41:53
stronger or lesser intensity, but it comes back very often and
42:00
reinforce here the invitation, like Alison Jordan said, of
42:03
looking at the layers, at least looking at these different
42:06
layers. Because we have the layer of the
42:09
dancers that are there. You have the layer of the
42:13
organizers, the facilitators, the teachers who want to protect
42:19
what is so dear to them. The dancers wants to protect
42:22
what's so dear to them. And we have the layer of those
42:26
who don't know the dance and who are watching as well.
42:29
And our desire to protect those eyes as well to what we think is
42:33
the goods, you know, the good dance, I want to show them what
42:37
is this good dance? So these are all very valid,
42:41
super valid things, super valid concerns and important as well.
42:48
And what I want to really ask for people is to take some time
42:55
in perceiving the immediate judgment that comes right away
43:01
noticing it. Maybe you're questioning the
43:04
concepts that are behind questioning the principles that
43:07
are behind understanding them before you go ahead and go hard
43:13
on someone. You know, if we can get to that
43:16
point already, they'll be incredible.
43:20
Yeah, We do have a place to call people out.
43:22
We do have a place to say, brah, not cool.
43:26
You know, that is important as well.
43:30
And it's important that that's done with more understanding,
43:33
with some level of kindness involved in these approaches.
43:39
Yeah, this is going to happen again.
43:40
These things are going to keep happening.
43:42
Yeah. And we're going to do another
43:43
episode about it because just one is not nearly enough.
43:48
And hopefully by then we'll be more wise.
43:50
We'll be older who have more experience than be able to
43:53
express ourselves about this situation even more or even
43:56
better, even more accurately, Right, Allison?
44:00
But I think this is a beginning, a good beginning to a series of
44:05
talks or conversations that are harder to have because they are
44:09
complex, so many layers and so many different things.
44:13
We need to look at another not to be unfair in our assessments
44:18
here, in our sharing. Yes, and this is an invitation
44:22
and reminder for you to please have a look in the app that
44:26
you're listening or watching this.
44:28
And please make sure that you're following us or you've
44:31
subscribed to our channel here to keep in touch with us, but at
44:35
the same time to help us in this project that we love so much.
44:40
We will be dealing and talking about topics that we have not
44:47
touched yet because we didn't feel like we were fully
44:51
comfortable yet. But at the same time, we're
44:53
going to be revisiting some of the most discussed topics from
44:58
the past as well as having the guests that we love to have here
45:03
and the ones that you've requested so far.
45:06
So please keep in touch with us, send us a message if you have
45:10
any suggestion about a new topic or a guest that you like to see
45:15
here at Zucknitz. And with that in mind, we'll see
45:19
you on the next one. So thank you.
45:21
Thank you Bejes, Bejes, Abrasus and Ciao everybody.
45:26
Everyone.