Latest / Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation / Episode #35-Communication

Transcript

Episode #35-Communication · Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to this episode of Turning Grief into Growth: The Journey of Transformation.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: This is a podcast that's hosted by Greg Jacobs and Don Lipstein.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, good morning, Don.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing today?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing great, Greg.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing great.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I got a question for you though.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of shoes do frogs wear?
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Boy, leathery ones?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: Open toed.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's straight from your dad joke calendar, isn't it?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: And and why why do bakers work so hard?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, don't tell me why.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because they need the dough.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: They need it.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: They need A-N-E-A-D, not N-E-E-D.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: For those that can't interpret the dad joke.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: That's correct.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, you know, Don, that just goes to show that laughter is the best medicine.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, even on this grief podcast, we can laugh and we can uh have mirth amongst our day.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's very crucial, very important.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: So today, I believe, uh it's just you and I.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we do not have a guest on.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we like uh kind of peppering these in uh to the course of our um podcast repertoire from time to time.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the conversation today is gonna be centered around communication, uh, good communication, misinterpreted communication, uh faulty bad uh communication, uh, whatever it might be.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: We're just gonna see where the conversation goes.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: So why don't you start us off?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, sounds good.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I'm gonna do a shameless plug here for uh this men's resilience retreat that uh I am going to be facilitating along with uh our one of our previous guests, Stephen uh Cariskus.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And um he uh and it's at Camp Keda.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's titled Up in Maine.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: What's that?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Up in Maine.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Up in Maine, yes.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's titled Men's Resilience Retreat for Men Who've Been Profoundly Impacted by a Loss to Suicide.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: So this this is uh part of the communication that um I want to explore because it if if we just said for men who've been impacted by suicide, okay, that can mean a whole different thing than men who've been profoundly impacted by a loss to suicide, right?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: We could be getting people that maybe you know have survived a suicide attempt um or have had suicide ideations.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um so and and I feel like part of the reason I feel like this is an important thing to talk about is when I was uh just before Josh died, you know, I would communicate my way, and I made an assumption that people would figure it out because of how I was intending for my words to sound.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: But I recognized that I wasn't always using the correct words, or maybe even not um being as explicit with the uh with the communication as I wanted to be.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: So people were were kind of misreading what I was trying to say.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh it became clear to me that I needed to improve uh the way I communicated so that I didn't mislead people any longer, um, you know, and mislead them with how I was feeling um or mislead them with what my needs were at the time.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and specific I can't think of anything specifically right now, but I feel like this men's resilience retreat that I am plugging, um you know, that that profound who've been profoundly impacted by a loss to suicide uh is an important reminder that you know that that's kind of what I'm talking about.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about distinction because um we throw out terms like suicide survivor, and I get people all the time that ask me, they're like, So what's it what's that mean?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Does that mean like somebody took a bunch of pills and they got their stomach pumped and therefore they attempted suicide and they survived from it?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think clarity um is very important.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: We tend, I don't want to ever refer to grief as an industry, um, but I do think that there is um a consortium of like-minded people that are trying to help others, whether it's through foundations, whether it's through 501c3s.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we do a lot of grief work in helping others out.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And let's admit it, there can be a lot of lingo and language that can be confusing.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you an example.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was at a retreat.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe in throwing uh organizations under the bus.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so we'll just leave it anonymous.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I was at a retreat a few years ago and there was a woman crying at the table, and uh there was another uh grieving person next to her that immediately pulled out some Kleenexes out of her purse and she handed it to that uh crying woman.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the facilitator is like, no, no, no, no, whoa, we don't do that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: We don't do that, we don't hand Kleenexes because uh handing tissues to somebody means that you are trying to suppress their tears.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Then I was recently on another major uh grief organization website that reaches out to more bereaved parents, and one of the main things it says in there is we bring tissues to our meeting.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: We want to encourage uh people to cry because cry tears are very healing.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the communication just has to be very gentle, either way, and it has to be clarified.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you want to say, hey, don't put tissues in front of somebody, uh, just say, hey, look, we're not trying to suppress your tears.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but at the same time, if you don't want them just going all the way down your you know, face onto your shirt or whatever, you know, here's here's a tissue, uh, whatever.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I I do think that communication is crucial and important because just saying one thing, because maybe that's something you heard from a psychologist that says, hey, don't do this, you're gonna find another psychologist that you know says something else.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's important to be you know deliberate, but you know, acute.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: That story you just shared.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I mean I felt empathy for the person who was handing the Kleenex because if if if that person, that woman was being called out in front of you know, this other person who she's trying to uh support and be helpful to, um, that can't have made her feel very warm and and welcomed.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I I understand the philosophy uh of what this person was saying, but it's not something that needs to be said.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think it can be communicated in a different way.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and so the communication piece in that instance, I feel like you know, could have been handled better.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and maybe you know better later on at another time you might explain to to that person one-on-one instead of in the group.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um but uh so I I I do understand the philosophy behind uh that that you know we don't want to stop the uh person from uh allowing tears to to roll.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because that kind of can be like almost like a message, a communication message, like, oh don't cry.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: Here's you know, here's some tissues.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: But that's it's not uh like so.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: In my groups that I have in person, um I do provide a box of Kleenex.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: Now, does that mean I'm going to pick up the box and hand somebody the Kleenex?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's there for somebody to pick up for themselves.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I have seen other people, you know, pick pick one up and hand it to somebody, and um I'm not gonna criticize them for doing that.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's just um, you know, their way of of showing empathy and compassion, and we all have different ways of doing that.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and I I think it's the spirit of the law if you look at it.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's like that person was really um being helpful and empathetic and trying to hand somebody a Kleenex.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, let's let's go and dive into a little over-communication.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have talked about buzzwords, for example, uh, and this might not fall into the category of over-communication, but we've talked about uh the word trigger.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes if somebody died by gun violence, for example, due to suicide, then the word trigger can actually trigger them.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, how are you going to know every single circumstance or that uh somebody committed suicide versus saying somebody died by suicide?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: It can have more of a negative connotation against mental health, uh, for example.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was talking with a police officer, a friend of mine one time, and he was just talking about all of the gory uh car accidents that he had worked and uh the deaths and and you know, the blood all over the place.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and I and I stopped him and I was like, you know, you know, my son died in an auto accident.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I don't I I don't need to hear you know those details.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm just being factual with what I've seen.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, no, I I appreciate that.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: I I know you have seen a lot.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that first responders do not get enough credit for the PTSD that they have from what they've seen.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Only soldiers seem to you know get that.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think we just have to be wise as serpents uh and smart as uh what what is uh why is a serpent smart as doves?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh or meek as I don't know.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, we just have to be very wise with our words whenever we're communicating.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think I think it that just points out something really important too, that you as the griever, you communicated to this person that, hey, um, you know, I I get activated, my my emotions get activated when you talk about things like you know a car accident.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, if you could just keep that in mind.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: So that's communication, right?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's really good communication because you're asking for what you need.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and um so Don, you can control that good communication on the outside, you know, going out of you.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: How about the receiving end of that?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: What if that police officer, for example, was offended by my communication and was like, Well, that's your problem.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's an issue that they have, and you just very tactfully try to handle that, right?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and when when you're the grieving person, um I think you know you've just got to uh chalk that up.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: I personally I'd probably say, okay, thanks, and kind of walk away.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because that's not something what's that?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: I said it kind of trumps the conversation.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know, right now you're the one in in distress.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm the one in distress if I'm you know talking to this police officer, um and he's not you know uh listening to to what I'm trying to throw down.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: If he's not picking up what I'm throwing down, I'm I'm picking up and and leaving and walking out.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um because that's what I need, right?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm focused currently I'm focused on what my needs are, not what his needs are.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: If he if he doesn't like what my needs are, then I gotta I gotta remove myself.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's communication.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about a fear uh that people have uh of saying the wrong thing, mainly those that are not affected by grief at this stage of life.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I I I feel like everybody's gonna be affected by grief somewhere in their stage of life if they lived a be a long life.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I don't know if that's necessarily true, because grief is based off of the relationship that you had with that person.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So um, if you don't love hard anybody and you keep your arms at length with people, then you might not end up grieving.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: But um so so there is this essence of, you know, um the old TV show, kids say the darndest things.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we say the darndest things uh to people as well.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Those that are outside that haven't ever grieved, and they try to add words of wisdom or sympathy uh to somebody that is grieving, there's a real fear factor of saying the wrong thing.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: And let's face it, you and I who have dealt with grief, we also have said stupid things that we look back and we're like, oh man, why'd I say that?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know better.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one of those stupid things, um and and I've heard I've heard people who have lost their their loved one um say this, that uh but it could be a stupid thing to someone else, and that's that they're in a better place.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um in fact my cousin just uh I just learned that my cousin died.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we weren't we weren't super close.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um and her her brother called me um and uh he said uh that he believes she's in a better place uh because she struggled uh throughout her life.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, she had struggles.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_02: So um, but is that something that we should be communicating to somebody?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't believe so.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think if they say it themselves, great, let them say it.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I don't want to hear about angel wings, I don't want to hear about how God needed them more than we did.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to hear the cliches that here in America we are programmed on the you know, Gibson greeting card and the Hallmark cards uh to say they they're not helpful.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I have cards that I send out, and the only thing it says is just breathe.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: I usually send cards out that say it sucks.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm joking, I don't.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um I sent I send my my emergency dad joke cards.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: I put one of them in there.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: That'll break the ice.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh you know, communication, what we need uh as grievers, we need to be able to share with people what it is we need.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really important.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's hard, it's hard for grievers to do that.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody, especially that's brand new, first off, they don't know what they need, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh and and many times, you know, I I know the first few weeks I had no clue what I needed, but I had people dropping food off.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: I had somebody come in and and clean my house.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: They must have thought it was pretty dirty.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and it may have been, I don't know.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't tell you.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um but um you know, they're uh so oftentimes you don't know what you need.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you was it you, Greg, that told me that um uh after David died, um somebody came over and cut your grass.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Was that you or somebody?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Probably, yeah.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: I I did I had some guys come over and and help.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I had a bunch of guys come over and they said, Hey, we're gonna set up camp inside of your living room 24 hours a day for the first two weeks.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, No, that's not what I need, but that's what they thought that I needed.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think just be sensitive to what people, you know, we don't know what we don't know uh at the time when you're in the first 30 days, especially what we need.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but if it if you go and you see that the grass is tall, then just take the initiative and and cut it and don't ask.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: You don't even have to ask, just do it.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: And and they're gonna appreciate that.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, um I know I I'm a cook.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I like to cook, I enjoy cooking, but uh I couldn't even think about you know cooking anything and and my neighbors were dropping food off, um which is I think you know probably relatively typical of of uh people when they get lost somebody close to them.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh but so it just not knowing what you need and and then for those people that are supporting um just taking a chance and and sending them something or giving them something that might be helpful.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say that a friend of yours or a family member dies, and uh I will just say that um you're not gonna get communication from that grieving person.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the lack of communication.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna know how to ask what they need.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So let me give you some advice.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: This this worked for me, might not work for you.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what I would recommend doing is uh go out to Amazon, buy uh it's it's a gift card, it's a leather-bound gift card holder, holds like 26 gift cards.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: Just bought one today, actually, uh, because I had some uh gift cards uh that I can get uh based off of points I earned on my credit card.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it's like for sending them to me.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thank you.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: I got the zip code wrong, so remind me to get that later.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I put Lighthouse on there, but I don't think it'll get there.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's uh it's you know it's seven bucks.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: My point is is fill it up with gift cards uh to local restaurants, make sure they're local around that person.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um go go around to people they know and just say, hey, I'm I'm buying some gift cards for them for food.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh because if you do this food train, I can tell you how many people I've talked to are like, man, I throw food away.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have an appetite, I don't have anywhere to put it.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they just keep coming, but they don't know how to say something because they don't want to offend.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not I'm not speaking out against food trains necessarily, but I think the gift card to a cracker barrel or something that's down the road might be more beneficial.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really good point.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and yeah, they can choose to use it then or they can choose to hold on to it and use it later.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and the second point is go out to day 31 uh on your calendar.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Some days have 28 in February, others 30, others 31.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Go out to day 32, I don't care, the next month, and put on your calendar to go follow up with that person because statistically it is a crazy thing.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard it time and time again that after 30 days, everybody goes away.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And after 30 days, that grieving person goes out to the mailbox and there's no more grief cards in there or no more wind chimes coming in the mail, and they don't know what to do.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's really when they need you.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um because they're deer in the headlights up until then.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's when they feel the loneliest because everyone else is living moving on with their lives, and they can't because they are still very much grieving.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and maybe they can, but but it's not uh it's not easy, and it's it's not um, you know, they're they're struggling.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about silence uh being a form of communication, Don.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: We don't think about that a lot.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know I don't.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: My wife tells me I talk way too much all the time.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would uh you would you would concur with her?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I want to talk to Amy.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Amy, you were 100% right.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I I totally agree with her too.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like we had some friends over last night for dinner, and afterwards she's like, you know, have you ever thought about just letting me talk?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, man, I just don't even realize I do it because I just need to get my words in for the day.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And working from home remotely, I just kind of feel claustrophobic sometimes emotionally.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the gift of silence is very powerful.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're trying to think of what do I say to a grieving person, you don't always have to say something.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: There is no perfect magical word or phrase that's going to set the situation upright for them.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to say the gift of presence is so powerful, not presence that you're giving them P R E uh S E N T S, like wrapped presence, but the presence of you just being there and just showing up and uh, you know, putting your arm around them or whatever, but you don't always have to talk.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Your presence is the gift.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you're right.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um in fact, oftentimes uh just being there and letting them talk, y you don't have to say a word.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you know, allow them to talk and uh and yeah that that can be so much more powerful than you know, and especially for those of you that might be concerned about saying the wrong thing.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um if if you are one of those people, just know that being quiet and saying, you know, you understand or do whatever it is that you are trying to do, just allow them to know you are feeling um you're there with them.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: You're just there.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my best friends' sons died in an ATV accident at the age of 13, probably about eight years ago.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember taking him to lunch, and this is before David died.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh took him to lunch, and my son was going through some things.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: David at the time, post-high school, he had he had dabbled with meth and um before he went in the army, and it just really was rocking my world, and I didn't know what to do.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And here I've got this bereaved dad sitting across from me who I've been best friends with for years.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Man, I don't know who has a better you or me.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think you do, because this is just the ongoing pain for me trying to figure out where David is and what he's doing.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: At least you have some finality.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I was so stupid, I was so naive, I had no idea.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I was in men's ministry at a church, so I felt like I had to always give words of wisdom and say something.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't thought a second thought about that until David died.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: And my friend was down in Florida when he found out, and he came back and uh he walked around the neighborhood with me.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I remember it was snowing.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Hey, Greg, let me remind you of something that happened about three years ago.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Do you remember when we were at Marimba's Mexican restaurant and we were talking, and you made this comment, and I broke down crying while we were walking.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, I cannot believe I said that because it finally hit me losing my son.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: How stupid and boneheaded of a comment could I make?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Greg, I don't, I don't tell you to smear it in your face.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: I tell you because people are going to say comments like that uh all the time to you.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to learn grace and you have to learn to just almost receive it without retaliating.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the best wisdom that I could have been given.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we we joke about that to this day because now we're both, you know, recovering grieving fathers on our way to growth.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if recovering grieving fathers is a term, but uh, but anyway, it I I've said those stupid things on the backside before I, you know, lost uh my son.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then I've also said some things after the fact.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you just have to eat crow sometimes and and move forward and correct yourself.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Giving grace is uh yeah, that's something that um I had to learn to do too.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my sister taught me that really well because she she was probably one of the um, and I hope she's not listening to this episode, but then again, maybe it's good if she does.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um there were times where you know she just struggled um trying to be helpful, and uh and I gave her grace.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been mentoring a pastor uh for the past two years.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: He's coming up on his two-year mark from losing his uh almost 18-year-old son and drowning accent.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yesterday we had coffee, Don, and uh there was just something profound with his comment that he said, you know, as a pastor, he said, man, don't throw scripture verses out if you're you know a Christian.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh don't throw Bible verses out to somebody.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't help uh in the midst of the storm.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's not that I disagree with the Bible at all.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a born-again Christian.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh appreciate the Bible, appreciate those passages.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I have learned to embrace those passages of comfort uh down the road.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're in the heat of the moment, uh it doesn't do any good at that moment.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um I thought that was really good straight from a pastor's mouth because it's how I've been feeling too.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't know if I was jaded.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think we just have to be careful.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times we mean well, and uh sounds good.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, it's on a Hallmark card, um, but uh might not be the right thing at the right time.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Agreed.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Don, can you think of anything else with communication that uh we should touch?
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel you and I communicate?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's very interesting you asked that question because um you are more introverted than I am.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: I am more extroverted than you are.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um you have confronted me several times about uh different items in a very loving fashion.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, hey, I just wanted to bring this up to you.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, like, for example, maybe you can tend to hog the conversation on a podcast, and you haven't used that terminology.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think that I I love the fact that you can be honest with me and you say it from a place of love and a place of um positive growth and challenge.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think we communicate great, and I think that we compliment each other on uh facilitating and topics.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it goes beyond the podcast.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: You and I call each other through the week, we'll text each other, and we don't always agree on everything.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that and I think that's important to say is um I tend to be a little more conservative, you tend to be more a little more liberal, and I think that's what makes the world go round.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to be surrounded by people that are just like me, cookie cutter.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I agree.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, although I do dis I would disagree, I don't believe I'm introverted, I am quiet.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I I listen.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um somebody one time asked or told me that you know God gave us two ears and one mouth mouth for a reason.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: And um I I feel like I learn uh so much more when I'm listening than when I'm speaking.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um I but I I love being around people and being with people.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good call out.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there are times when I feel um I also feel the need to you know spend time alone uh with my thoughts and and feelings.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: So um but uh I agree with you.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think we do communicate really well.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I am grateful.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: I you know for years I I uh was told that I should do a podcast by many different people.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um and like they kept saying, Tom, why don't you do a podcast?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I can't even uh begin to imagine what that would be like, and I certainly didn't want to do it myself.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um so then I started thinking, who who would I want to do this with?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember the conversation that you and I had, and it was right after you had been uh a guest on a podcast, and um and I was like, you know, Greg would make a great partner to be uh, you know, on a podcast with because I knew that that we are different, and and that I think that helps to um I I hope that it helps our listeners to uh see that you know you don't have to be like anyone else, you just have to be you.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um and like I admire you uh for how well you speak.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh your your public speaking is great.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't feel that mine is as nearly as good, but that's who I am, and and you are who you are.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I can aspire to to improve my public speaking, and I have been uh aspiring to do that.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um you inspire me to to uh you know do better at that.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: So and this podcast is helping a lot, I think.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: In the words of Jerry Maguire, you had me at hello.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's funny, occasionally I'll still get somebody that'll come back to me like, hey, listen to your podcast.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Have you thought about getting a microphone and a headset?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because you could barely hear.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, you went into episode one, didn't you?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're on episode 34 now, so we got that in episode two, brother.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Go to the next episode.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think mine was mine may not have arrived until episode four or five.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was three, but we we've gotten there.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're getting a whole lot better, and we didn't know we didn't know either.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, um, yeah, I was thinking to your uh to your uh extrovert and introverted comment.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like I'm six foot seven and you are in uh shorter than me.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So anybody that I look at is uh is shorter than me, and I think it's the same thing with I'm Uber extroverted.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: So anybody that is a little less extroverted than me is more introverted.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but it's but it's it's all matter in the eye of the beholder for yourself.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I I couldn't agree more.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, I want to close uh with something if it's okay.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: We are uh so I went to a wedding, it was really an emotional wedding, even the cake was in tears.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: How many tears was it?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Three or four.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have to admit, that one I was just taking just a little longer to think about because I was looking and I was thinking about tears coming down and the tissue comment we had.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna hand a tissue uh to that joke.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I figured it would go well with this episode.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as I said, a little laughter, a little mirth goes a long way.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, if you're struggling, try to find some joy in your life.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you, Don.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh appreciate your time.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Greg.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Take care.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Pleasure.