Latest / Simply Bitcoin / Dr. Jeff Ross & Tomer Strolight | Philosophy + Economics | Simply Bitcoin IRL

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Dr. Jeff Ross & Tomer Strolight | Philosophy + Economics | Simply Bitcoin IRL · Simply Bitcoin

• 0:06
  Hello everybody, Welcome to another episode of Simply
• 0:08
  Bitcoin IRL. Today I am very, very happy.
• 0:12
  We have two special guests. We have Tomer Strollite and
• 0:15
  Doctor Jeff Ross. But before we jump into the
• 0:18
  show, I want to give a very special shout out to the Bitcoin
• 0:20
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• 0:23
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• 0:26
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• 0:34
  They also incentivize you to take self custody.
• 0:36
  What are you waiting for? Visit swanbitcoin.com today.
• 0:40
  And if you go to swan.com/simply and you use that that code,
• 0:44
  you'll get $10 in Bitcoin for free after you make your first
• 0:47
  purchase. So no more delay.
• 0:49
  Let's bring up our very special guest, Tomer and Dr. Jeff Ross.
• 0:54
  I want to say something about Tomer before.
• 0:56
  Tomer is the most awesome person to have conversations with like
• 1:02
  we get, we get spiritual and like it gets deep and it's
• 1:06
  awesome and I really appreciate it.
• 1:08
  And of course, Dr. Ross, I love their conversations at Pacific
• 1:12
  Bitcoin. And every time you we, we, you
• 1:15
  come on the show, we go down this like Bitcoin macro rabbit
• 1:19
  hole. So I was like, okay, let's let's
• 1:21
  bring on these two Bitcoin legends together and let's see
• 1:25
  where the conversation takes us. How you gentlemen doing?
• 1:27
  Great. Doing great.
• 1:29
  Thanks for having us. Yeah.
• 1:31
  So I want to start off with you, Doctor Ross.
• 1:34
  So I think this is like a, a big announcement quote, my
• 1:38
  unretirement from healthcare commences on August 1st.
• 1:42
  So is that a, is that a congratulations?
• 1:45
  Are you excited? How you feeling about it?
• 1:48
  Very much, in fact. If you've ever for people in the
• 1:51
  audience, usually you have a different background.
• 1:53
  I have a map, but I changed my office back to the old way.
• 1:57
  So behind me here, these are the monitors that I'm gonna be
• 1:59
  reading radiology from SO. Very excited, actually.
• 2:05
  I had to leave Radiology about almost two years ago because my
• 2:10
  business, my fund and investment advisory business was growing so
• 2:14
  fast. It was just too kind of
• 2:16
  overwhelming. I'm at the point now where I'm
• 2:19
  going to. It was a hard decision.
• 2:21
  It was a I had to really look inside myself and see, you know,
• 2:25
  how good am I for my own business, right?
• 2:27
  I've been running Veilshare for 10 years now.
• 2:30
  I've decided that I'm actually the linchpin at this point.
• 2:33
  What I love is investing. That's why I started doing it 10
• 2:35
  years ago. What I don't love is running
• 2:37
  kind of the daytoday operations and dealing with compliance and
• 2:40
  all the other kind of things. So bringing on a new hire a guy,
• 2:44
  that's fantastic. I'm really excited to announce
• 2:46
  it, hopefully in the next couple of months.
• 2:48
  And that allows me to just basically focus on investing for
• 2:51
  my clients, but then at the same time I can go back to reading
• 2:54
  radiology again, which I enjoy doing as well.
• 2:57
  So back to two careers. I'm highly enthused about it, so
• 3:01
  it seems like you're mining Fiat hardcore.
• 3:05
  This is the time to be buying for sure.
• 3:07
  Now to be fair, it's been the time to be buying for the last
• 3:11
  year or so. And I don't want to do any
• 3:13
  spoilers, you know, for where I think things are going.
• 3:15
  But but yes, I still think this is a fantastic time to be a
• 3:18
  dollar cost averaging and smash buying Bitcoin.
• 3:20
  Smash, smash buy smash. Omer, what's on your mind these
• 3:24
  days? I'm gonna say this again.
• 3:26
  I'm gonna fanboy over Tomer. Tomer is fucking awesome.
• 3:29
  I can't emphasize this enough. If you see this guy to
• 3:32
  conference, have a conversation with them.
• 3:35
  What's on your mind these days, Tomer?
• 3:37
  No, it's like, listen, it's different things I really like.
• 3:42
  I like to try to put together different pieces of what's going
• 3:45
  on today. In particular, I've been writing
• 3:49
  a piece about the all the various mysteries inside of
• 3:52
  Bitcoin. And you know, there's Bitcoin is
• 3:55
  just this. It's mysteries all the way down
• 3:57
  is is kind of where I'm getting at.
• 4:00
  And it was brought. It was brought on by a
• 4:03
  discussion I had with an artist about something, and he's
• 4:08
  building like a vault so to. Symbolize artistically what a
• 4:14
  Bitcoin UTXO was. And I started to go down the
• 4:17
  rabbit hole of, you know, Bitcoin is actually like every
• 4:19
  Bitcoin block is like a vault within the last Bitcoin like
• 4:24
  this. Two kinds of security.
• 4:25
  One is your private public key, the other is the the work, the
• 4:28
  energy that secures each transaction.
• 4:31
  And they just are layered one inside the other.
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  So it's like you're taking the vault that was the last block
• 4:35
  and putting it into a new vault That's whose strength is all the
• 4:38
  energy that went into that most recent block.
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  And you know, these come in 2016 vault chunks, every difficulty
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  adjustment so that when the difficulty goes up, the vaults
• 4:48
  get harder and harder to penetrate.
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  And sitting at the center of all of these vaults, now there's
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  like 800,000 and 200 and something, 300 and something
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  that's the block height that we're at.
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  Is that one original UTXO? That one with that opera turn
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  that says Chancellor on the brink of second bailout for
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  banks? And if you want to go in and
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  double spend that one, you've got to break through every one
• 5:11
  of those 800,000 vaults in the next 10 minutes, because in 10
• 5:17
  minutes someone's going to find another vault that you need to
• 5:19
  break through before you can break through all the other
• 5:21
  ones. So it's just it's it's
• 5:23
  incredibly secure architecture. But that got me into thinking,
• 5:26
  you know, to solve a block, it's.
• 5:29
  It's a mystery what nonce is going to solve the next block.
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  So each each block is like this mysterious puzzle that people
• 5:36
  have to figure out and and the the the solution to the like
• 5:42
  when you saw the block then it releases the next puzzle because
• 5:46
  you need the solution to the previous block to be a part of
• 5:49
  the solution to the next block. So there's all these mysteries.
• 5:52
  And of course there's the mysteries of who is Satoshi
• 5:53
  Nakamoto and why did he make all these things the way he made
• 5:57
  them? And how does?
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  You know how does all how do all of these things about Bitcoin
• 6:01
  work? The whole field of cryptography
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  is of course comes from the great word crypto for cryptos,
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  for hidden. So it's just it's it's this
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  amazing mystery thing and to me like it's what draws mysteries
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  draw the curiosity in us right They they get they you hear
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  there's a mystery. You're like you want to solve it
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  or you want to hear how somebody solved it or you want to hear
• 6:22
  the solution. And Bitcoin is itself the
• 6:24
  solution to this Byzantine Generals problem, which was a
• 6:27
  problem that. Theoretical mathematicians that
• 6:30
  said they had proven cannot be solved.
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  And yet this unsolvable mystery unsolvable problem was solved in
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  a probabilistic way by Satoshi Nakamoto using this proof of
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  word puzzle. You know, using mysteries.
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  He used a mystery to solve the unsolvable mystery.
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  So the whole thing is really fascinating.
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  I'm trying to figure out a way to put it all into a article of
• 6:52
  the right length that isn't too much of a repeat of.
• 6:55
  Some of the other articles that I've written on the similar
• 6:58
  theme, but yeah, it was all kind of invoked by I think Level 39
• 7:03
  had a tweet storm this morning about because the alien
• 7:07
  testimonies, the UAP testimonies.
• 7:09
  So he said, like, here's all these things that we know so far
• 7:12
  about it, and he tied it. And he cited a couple of my
• 7:15
  articles. There's one I wrote a year and a
• 7:18
  half ago called Why People Wonder if Bitcoin is alien
• 7:21
  technology. So that obviously fit in there.
• 7:23
  And then. And then I think he was
• 7:26
  questioning whether Satoshi was an alien.
• 7:27
  So he cited my article, The Legendary Treasure of Satoshi
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  Nakamoto. And that everybody is exactly
• 7:36
  why I'm a huge fan of Summer. Those those those articles, his
• 7:41
  work by the way the video that you made that was produced
• 7:47
  Bitcoin is beautiful. Holy cow guys.
• 7:49
  Definitely recommend that you guys could check it at the swan
• 7:53
  channel. But anyways Dr. Ross so we had
• 7:59
  the infamous and I'm gonna bring it back to hopefully we can.
• 8:03
  I wanna see, I wanna see if we could tie the I wanna see if we
• 8:07
  could tie these two ways of approaching Bitcoin together.
• 8:12
  And it's gonna be fun and I'm looking forward to it.
• 8:15
  So we had the FOMC meeting today.
• 8:19
  There was a .25 hike, right? Did that surprise you?
• 8:24
  What were your thoughts on that? First of all let me just while
• 8:29
  Tomer's here say that I truly believe that Tomer, and this is
• 8:32
  not to you know blow up your skirt Tomer, but I think Tomer
• 8:35
  is going to go down in history as one of the great Bitcoin
• 8:37
  philosophers of our age And so that's cool.
• 8:40
  So I'm. I'm honored to be here with you,
• 8:42
  Tomer and and it's while Tomer elevates all conversations I
• 8:45
  like to bring them down and then and what could bring it down
• 8:48
  more than by talking about central bankers and Powell right
• 8:51
  so. Okay.
• 8:52
  So to get to your question, they raised 25 Dr. Ross.
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  I am Tomer's #1 fan Okay. Let's let's just establish that
• 9:00
  we just established. All right.
• 9:02
  All right. I can be #2.
• 9:03
  That's Okay Powell. So they raised 25 bips.
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  Was it a surprise? Not at all.
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  It was I think 99% certain based on CMA futures.
• 9:14
  Heading into it, so there was no surprise at all.
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  What I was waiting for is, is he going to come down as being
• 9:19
  overly hawkish or not? How will the FOMC minutes,
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  that's the statement they released at 2:00 PM Eastern.
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  Was that really any different than six weeks ago?
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  And the answer is no. No, there was really nothing
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  exciting at all about it. He basically said exactly what
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  they said before. The only change that I saw in it
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  was before they had said there was probably only going to be
• 9:40
  modest economic growth for the for the rest of this year and
• 9:44
  now they think there might be moderate economic growth which
• 9:47
  is like a bump up. Otherwise I said you know
• 9:50
  inflation is still a problem. They say we're still going to
• 9:52
  you know remain vigilant, we're going to watch the data.
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  We might, we may or may not raise again at the next meeting
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  which is in September, but we have, you know, some significant
• 10:00
  data points. Two rounds of CPI coming in
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  before that and other you know, inflationary data and economic
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  data. So basically everybody kept
• 10:11
  asking these questions, are you stopping, are you not, are you
• 10:13
  stopping or not? He's just like I'm telling you,
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  I don't know, we're just waiting to see what the data shows and
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  then we may or may not hike again in September.
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  And so non event it was enough. Nothing Burger.
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  Central banking is a mystery. Yes, right into it.
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  This is exactly why I brought you guys together.
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  I'm trying to synthesize the things we we talk about it.
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  It's interesting. I mean I don't view central
• 10:40
  banking as that much of A mystery.
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  It's a system that is that's kind of like broke broken at its
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  fundamentals and and it's just hope that if enough people trust
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  you. And you're benevolent enough you
• 10:56
  can get away with doing something that no human being
• 10:58
  should have the power to do, which is to distort the the, the
• 11:05
  meter stick, destroy the unit that people are are trying to
• 11:09
  use to measure value. And it's the intention is
• 11:12
  obviously not to destroy it, but in a sense it's to destroy the
• 11:15
  integrity of it, right? Central banking says the dollar
• 11:18
  shouldn't have integrity to it. It shouldn't be a fixed.
• 11:22
  Unit of value. It should be one that we can
• 11:25
  manipulate to some arbitrary goals that we feel are right.
• 11:29
  Like we feel 2% inflation is the target.
• 11:33
  Why? Why?
• 11:34
  Why not 3%? Why not 1%?
• 11:36
  Why not 100%? Why not minus 5%?
• 11:39
  Like there's a whole range of numbers.
• 11:40
  There's a whole real number line to go for.
• 11:43
  Why 2% is is perfect and and how they trade that off.
• 11:47
  So it's just like, it's amazing to me how arbitrary a system we
• 11:50
  live in and if. If we're talking about
• 11:52
  philosophy and history, I think I I think people in the future
• 11:58
  who live under a Bitcoin standard will wonder how
• 12:02
  primitive we were. In the same way that we might
• 12:04
  look at people who used beads or seashells as money and say what
• 12:08
  a primitive form of money people, people will look at
• 12:12
  central bank issued currencies and say what a.
• 12:16
  What a vicious and primitive form of money.
• 12:18
  At least there was nothing vicious about using the
• 12:20
  seashell. I mean, they were hard.
• 12:22
  They were rare and hard to collect.
• 12:23
  But someone, I guess, could collect them all day.
• 12:25
  But here someone can arbitrarily decree that there will be 3
• 12:29
  trillion more of these things. And who gets them and under what
• 12:33
  terms? And and these are always terms
• 12:35
  that don't treat everybody equally.
• 12:37
  So there are people who are. Implicitly disadvantaged by the
• 12:42
  system. And those are the people who are
• 12:43
  doing the hard work that the people who print the dollars get
• 12:46
  to enjoy the benefits of. So it really is a very much a
• 12:49
  master slave relationship. And that's what makes you know,
• 12:53
  we look back at the times when slavery was permitted and we say
• 12:57
  what a primitive and brutal time.
• 13:00
  And people in the future will look back at this time and say
• 13:02
  the same thing. And they will, they will pity
• 13:06
  those of us who were victims of the system.
• 13:08
  And they will view with this, with what's the word with anger
• 13:15
  and shock, the people who who ran the system this way.
• 13:19
  And I think kind of what's interesting about it, in the
• 13:21
  same way that you look back at people who owned slaves and they
• 13:25
  didn't necessarily think they were evil.
• 13:27
  They didn't necessarily fully contemplate the consequences on
• 13:33
  others of what they were doing. It was just the way I don't, you
• 13:36
  know. I don't know if Jerome Powell is
• 13:39
  overtly evil. What he's doing is participating
• 13:42
  in a system that's evil and that history will judge as evil.
• 13:46
  But he's just putting on his suit and coming into work and
• 13:49
  doing what he's been told to do. Possibly.
• 13:52
  I can't. Yeah.
• 13:53
  I mean, I would say that he's just a product of the incentive
• 13:58
  structure, like the incentive structure.
• 14:00
  Like he, I think this is where you get caught in these
• 14:03
  situations, where you where you really, truly are in a position
• 14:06
  of tremendous privilege and tremendous power and you
• 14:09
  intentionally blind yourself to the consequences.
• 14:13
  Like I remember, I don't listen to his speeches regularly, but.
• 14:17
  I want to say like roughly a year ago as they were starting
• 14:20
  to raise rates, he acknowledged. He said this is mostly harming
• 14:23
  poor people and people of color. I can't remember the exact
• 14:26
  expression he used, but he was saying like this is harming
• 14:29
  those people who are suffer, who are already disadvantaged in our
• 14:33
  civilization. It's making, it's making them
• 14:35
  not able to afford things. It's putting them out of jobs.
• 14:39
  And we're going to continue to do it.
• 14:40
  So, like, he knows that what he is doing to get inflation under
• 14:44
  control is making things harder. And he knows that he was the
• 14:47
  cause of the inflation by pumping trillions of dollars
• 14:51
  into the economy to fix what you know.
• 14:53
  And his whole job is sticking his finger in the dike.
• 14:56
  Like, oh, there's a problem. You know, people are locked down
• 14:58
  at home. OK, well, we'll, we'll print
• 15:00
  more money in a helicopter. And yeah, well, now there's too
• 15:02
  much money. That's OK.
• 15:03
  We'll raise the interest rates so people can't.
• 15:06
  Spend the money that we helicoptered into them.
• 15:09
  They have to spend it on interest, you know.
• 15:11
  And so he's just pulling and pushing these levers back and
• 15:13
  forth, and the whole thing's out of control and it's unstoppable.
• 15:16
  As you know, other people speak about much more eloquently than
• 15:19
  me. It's like the system.
• 15:21
  The system. Is based off of debt.
• 15:23
  And in order to pay the debt, the money supply needs to grow
• 15:26
  to pay off the debt. So it's like it's inherently an
• 15:28
  inflationary system. And what's happening now with
• 15:32
  high interest rates, you know what, what's the rate today, 5
• 15:35
  1/2 percent or 5 1/4%? Well, that's that's not just
• 15:39
  like thinking that's not 5% more than .25%, which was where it
• 15:42
  was at the low. That's 20 times the rate, 22
• 15:46
  times the rate, right. Interest.
• 15:47
  You know if. .25, a quarter of a percent interest on $100,000 is
• 15:52
  121, twentieth the rate of 5%. So if you're on a floating rate,
• 15:57
  you have to pay 20 times as much interest as you had to just a
• 16:00
  year and a half ago. The inflation and you know, so
• 16:03
  like the CPI on interest has been 2200% like or 2100%.
• 16:10
  So starting from the basis, I don't want to exaggerate it,
• 16:13
  which is interesting too. 2100 percent, 21 million coins.
• 16:17
  Maybe this is where they stop or this is where it all breaks.
• 16:21
  It is just it's shocking the severity of the intervention
• 16:26
  that they've had. And you can see it explicitly
• 16:29
  whether you're looking at the money supply or the interest
• 16:30
  rate. Our our money system is in
• 16:35
  danger. I I agree it it it does feel
• 16:39
  that way and and I I know and I want to pass it on to Doctor
• 16:42
  Ross like from the from my generation specifically like it
• 16:47
  is. You know we can't afford
• 16:49
  anything Like I'm super, super lucky to have got into Bitcoin
• 16:52
  the time that I did and I've been here for a very long time
• 16:55
  but like the vast majority of of my generation we can't we can't
• 16:59
  afford anything. We can't buy anything.
• 17:01
  You know, I'm still renting and that's a story that you hear
• 17:05
  time and time and time again and from the Contillionaire
• 17:08
  conference, which people call the World Economic Forum, but I
• 17:10
  really call it the Contillionaire Conference.
• 17:12
  Their own rhetoric is even telling you like well you'll own
• 17:16
  nothing and be happy. And I and I really think that
• 17:18
  they're telling you this type of stuff because they fully
• 17:21
  understand the severity of the situation for you know the if
• 17:26
  you're for for for the younger generations.
• 17:28
  And I think they're trying to accustom the custom them to this
• 17:31
  new normal. So I mean to adding to what
• 17:34
  tumor was saying, Doctor Ross, it seems like this system is, is
• 17:39
  completely unsustainable. It seems like this is something
• 17:42
  that this is not a solid foundation for society to move
• 17:47
  forward on. So what's your take on that?
• 17:50
  Well, for sure, right? We know from history that all
• 17:53
  Fiat currency eventually goes to 0, right?
• 17:55
  Governments can't. They can't resist the temptation
• 17:59
  to debase their currency. And when they do that, what
• 18:03
  they're doing is just stealing purchasing power from their
• 18:06
  citizens, right? Everybody knows that, although,
• 18:08
  well, I should say all bitcoiners know that.
• 18:10
  And people who understand money know that.
• 18:12
  And the people who control money know that.
• 18:14
  But the vast majority of Americans still don't know that.
• 18:18
  So what happens is they can't resist.
• 18:20
  Purchasing power continues to decline over time.
• 18:23
  When we have this Keynesian credit based economic system,
• 18:26
  you have to have inflation. You have to continue to grow
• 18:30
  your credit base. Because you're constantly just
• 18:32
  rolling over your debt and rolling over your debt and
• 18:34
  compounding and compounding and compounding.
• 18:36
  That's what we call the debt spiral, which eventually turns
• 18:39
  into a death spiral for the underlying currency, right?
• 18:42
  So it continues until basically people are like, I don't want
• 18:45
  your Fiat currency anymore because it's basically
• 18:47
  worthless. Why would I continue to get paid
• 18:49
  in this currency that costs you nothing to make, but you're
• 18:53
  giving that to me as payment. You know, eventually what
• 18:55
  happens is people lose confidence in that currency.
• 18:58
  And it goes to 0, and that's literally 100% of the time.
• 19:01
  With Fiat currencies, you go to 0.
• 19:03
  So I have no doubt in my mind that all of the current
• 19:06
  government Fiat currencies are going to go to 0.
• 19:09
  Not in my lifetime necessarily. They could.
• 19:12
  But I do think the dollar you know it's the strong, it's you
• 19:15
  know that it's the best crack house on the crack St. as as
• 19:17
  Foss would say or something like that.
• 19:19
  But it and it is right. It's the strongest Fiat
• 19:21
  currency. It has the strongest military in
• 19:24
  the world behind it. They have this sweetheart deal
• 19:26
  with the rest of the world where you buy our bonds and you'll
• 19:29
  you'll fund our military whether you want to or not.
• 19:31
  And we'll basically provide worldwide military service for
• 19:33
  you. For us though.
• 19:36
  And so, so we get to export our inflation to the nations and we
• 19:39
  get to enjoy lots of the benefits that, you know, people
• 19:42
  have been calling for the demise of the dollar for a long time.
• 19:44
  It's not going down anytime soon, but I do believe with my
• 19:47
  I'm with my whole heart that it is going down eventually.
• 19:50
  And you know, it's one of the laws.
• 19:52
  It's almost like a law of physics, right things.
• 19:54
  You can count on death and taxes.
• 19:55
  You can also count on Fiat debasement, but you can also
• 19:58
  count on Bitcoin. Deflation, right.
• 20:02
  So, so growth of purchasing power over time and it's just
• 20:05
  the mechanics, it's the math behind the system.
• 20:08
  So like we were talking about coming full circle, you know,
• 20:10
  why do we blather on about why don't why do I talk about
• 20:12
  Powell, well in the, in the central banks and what is the
• 20:15
  Fed doing? We unfortunately, we have to
• 20:18
  because in 2008, 2009, the Fed wrested control of the risk
• 20:24
  markets from the underlying economy almost completely.
• 20:29
  And and it's now based on monetary decisions and fiscal
• 20:33
  decisions and not necessarily on what the economy is doing
• 20:35
  underneath it. And that's not just true in the
• 20:38
  US, it's true with all of the major economies around the
• 20:40
  world. And so, you know, all of our
• 20:43
  governments have spending problems.
• 20:44
  The central bankers and Powell and the Fed, they get a lot of
• 20:48
  Flack and they should, but it's actually not their fault per se.
• 20:52
  It's actually the fault of governments that just cannot
• 20:55
  stop spending. The government spend and they
• 20:58
  spend and they spend and they create debt.
• 21:00
  And if nobody is willing to buy that crappy debt that's actually
• 21:03
  losing purchasing power to inflation overtime, the Fed is
• 21:07
  the buyer of last resort of these treasuries.
• 21:09
  So that's the purpose of these central banks is to be the buyer
• 21:11
  of last resorts of the government's debt.
• 21:14
  And so they're, they're very intricately, intricately linked.
• 21:18
  So, so what's the end? You know, this is a really long
• 21:21
  answer to your question. The end is 0.
• 21:23
  The dollar is going to 0, all Fiat currency is going to 0.
• 21:26
  Again, I'm not saying that it's happening this year or next
• 21:28
  year, but it is happening in some government Fiat currencies,
• 21:30
  right. We were watching it in real time
• 21:32
  in Lebanon, Argentina. You can see lots of countries
• 21:35
  that are struggling around the world.
• 21:36
  One by one, they're going to figure out that, hey, we
• 21:38
  actually have a viable alternative.
• 21:41
  It's as accessible as the Internet is.
• 21:43
  It's called Bitcoin. And this can actually save us
• 21:46
  from our governments. And then the final thing is, and
• 21:49
  then we'll go back to Tomer. You know, whoever controls the
• 21:53
  money has the power, right? We all grew up knowing the adage
• 21:56
  money is power. So the makers of the money and
• 21:58
  the controllers of the money have all the power.
• 22:02
  Governments have all the power. the US government is the most
• 22:04
  powerful nation state in the world in the history of the
• 22:07
  world because of the monetary policies that we've had since.
• 22:11
  Basically, you know, post World War Two, we don't want to give
• 22:15
  up that exorbitant privilege. It's a huge privilege.
• 22:18
  It's a huge benefit to Americans as well.
• 22:21
  And so I'm sorry, go ahead. Yeah, no, you said we would
• 22:24
  transition. So I wanna I wanna point out
• 22:27
  that that privilege. Comes at a big cost.
• 22:31
  And again, when we say we, the people who've paid a very dear
• 22:37
  price for that privilege, is the American middle class, the
• 22:40
  American working class, the American union worker, all of
• 22:43
  those people. Because what happened when we
• 22:46
  went off the gold, when the world went off the gold
• 22:48
  standard? And America.
• 22:51
  And this is Peter Zahan's original thesis right, that
• 22:55
  America became the superpower, protected the shipping ways,
• 22:58
  gave everyone access to their to their economy.
• 23:02
  And when we went off the gold standard, basically America
• 23:05
  exported protecting military protection of importing stuff
• 23:10
  made abroad into America in exchange for U.S. dollars which
• 23:15
  secured. You know the world and prevented
• 23:18
  wars as long as you accepted it. You didn't accept the US dollar.
• 23:21
  War somehow came to you, but but peace came to you in the form of
• 23:26
  military bases and and ships, naval ships to protect your
• 23:30
  goods, to be shifting to America.
• 23:32
  But as that happened and this was a long, slow shift, Niko's
• 23:35
  too young to remember it. I don't know how old you are,
• 23:37
  Doctor Jeff. I'm probably a little bit older
• 23:39
  than you, and people older than me remember even the time when
• 23:42
  they were like no imported cars on the roads.
• 23:46
  And and what what what this led to was everyone who had U.S.
• 23:52
  dollars in the US basically buying goods that were made
• 23:55
  abroad and shipped and imported into America.
• 23:59
  And that led to the erosion of. Most manufacturing, like a lot
• 24:05
  of manufacturing jobs, not your house, can't be imported.
• 24:08
  So real estate, you know, house building is still done locally,
• 24:12
  but many, many components are now imported.
• 24:15
  And certainly just about, you know, this computer I'm talking
• 24:18
  to you on was made and manufactured assembled in China,
• 24:21
  even though it was designed by an American company.
• 24:24
  And and just about everything that I'm looking at, this piece
• 24:27
  of assembled furniture that it sits on, I did the assembly
• 24:30
  work. Not an American paid worker, but
• 24:33
  the Chinese factory assembled it.
• 24:35
  And so what's what's what happened is we hollowed out the
• 24:38
  middle class and they're the ones paying the price today
• 24:40
  right there. The number of people who are in
• 24:44
  the middle class or the amount of income.
• 24:46
  The middle class used to represent something like 60% of
• 24:49
  all the income and now it's under 40%.
• 24:54
  So like a full third roughly of of the income that the middle
• 25:00
  class had is no longer middle class income and and you go to
• 25:03
  WTF happened in 1970 one.com, you can see where it all went.
• 25:06
  It went to the very, very top. Elite.
• 25:09
  So we've paid this big price for this privilege.
• 25:12
  That isn't a privilege that all Americans benefit from.
• 25:15
  Are all N Americans Are all Westerners benefit from?
• 25:17
  It's a privilege that the elite class doesn't it.
• 25:21
  And many of us are in that elite class.
• 25:23
  We're service workers. We're executives.
• 25:26
  We're lawyers. We're professionals who who
• 25:29
  haven't lost their share of the income as a as a result.
• 25:33
  But this is oh, there we go. There's an interesting chart
• 25:35
  right 1971. Thank you for sharing this.
• 25:38
  Who? Whoever is doing that magic,
• 25:40
  worker productivity has gone up by 150% to like 2 from 100 to
• 25:45
  250. But worker compensation has
• 25:48
  hardly budged. So all that productivity, all
• 25:52
  that increase has gone somewhere else.
• 25:54
  And there's there's lots of other charts along this these
• 25:56
  lines that people can check there or do or do your own
• 25:59
  research. You don't have to do too much
• 26:01
  research. The number of people employed by
• 26:03
  unions who protected, who worked for people to have pensions,
• 26:07
  Nobody's getting a. Anymore nowadays who work for
• 26:10
  people to have safe working conditions, all this kind of
• 26:13
  stuff like that's dropped dramatically and and most
• 26:16
  importantly right it's in the private sector, it's dropped off
• 26:19
  profoundly right like in the government sector.
• 26:22
  Well government union those kind of things end up working
• 26:25
  together. People work together but they're
• 26:26
  providing service work right and so they're not building things.
• 26:30
  So we've just had this hollowing out of our ability and like some
• 26:33
  of this knowledge is is lost to the point where.
• 26:37
  We don't have it anymore. Like we can't just tomorrow fire
• 26:40
  up all sorts of factories. We have to learn how to fire up
• 26:43
  factories. We have to learn how to make
• 26:44
  things and and things are made the way that they're made
• 26:46
  abroad. You know, the reliable, durable,
• 26:49
  unbreakable kind of appliances that we used to have, They don't
• 26:53
  exist anymore. Everything is built to be as
• 26:54
  cheap and breakable as possible. I'll just like one final
• 26:59
  anecdote. I It was part of this was seen
• 27:02
  through the Walmart ization of retail, right big box retail.
• 27:06
  Where? Where the intention was.
• 27:10
  And again, these good intentions, right?
• 27:11
  Like the intention was so that ordinary folks could afford the
• 27:14
  nice things that wealthy people could have, but that came by
• 27:18
  making slave slave labor overseas produce those things
• 27:21
  for what we called ordinary folks who now are finding
• 27:25
  themselves buying much lower quality things than they ever
• 27:28
  imagined. They would and and don't and
• 27:31
  have a bleak outlook for for their future.
• 27:34
  So it's kind of the pivot point I I just want the pivot point
• 27:36
  that we stand at is this continues and we end up with a
• 27:40
  very bifurcated West right with people who have a lead access to
• 27:45
  things. Manufacturing doesn't serve the
• 27:47
  masses anymore. It's just we just build fancy
• 27:50
  yachts for the of the ultra rich and and other people eat garbage
• 27:54
  or we find the pivot point and which is people.
• 27:58
  The masses get sound money and use sound money and don't get
• 28:02
  exploited by all the things that are broken with the dollar,
• 28:05
  right? The dollar isn't just the elite
• 28:06
  have the privilege of printing it and keeping it for
• 28:09
  themselves. It's like.
• 28:10
  Well, we use it, we all. You collectively fell into the
• 28:14
  fallacy of using it to buy cheap foreign products.
• 28:18
  Look at all the stuff I filled my house with.
• 28:19
  But I was filling it with lost jobs, lost North American jobs
• 28:23
  and lost quality of North American manufacturing.
• 28:26
  Some people would argue it wasn't high quality enough, but
• 28:28
  it's it's like anything old in your house and anything new in
• 28:32
  your house. You can see the difference,
• 28:33
  right? Ones made of plywood and and
• 28:36
  stickers and something else is made out of an actual.
• 28:39
  Piece of wood or piece of metal that's solid and not the minimum
• 28:43
  thickness it needs to be to be able to be assembled before it
• 28:47
  collapses. Yeah, man, it's.
• 28:52
  I couldn't have said it like that, Tomer, But yes, the money
• 28:55
  is definitely broken. There's definitely consequences
• 28:59
  to that. And I think what you described,
• 29:03
  you know, so eloquently was basically the hollowing out of
• 29:06
  the middle class. And then if you think about, it
• 29:08
  from, you know, the younger generations, right, younger
• 29:11
  generations if they haven't had so many, so much years in the
• 29:14
  workforce. So we generally tend to start
• 29:17
  off poor, right? We don't, I don't think we have
• 29:19
  the opportunities that at least my parents had.
• 29:22
  And I think This is why Bitcoin is so.
• 29:25
  Important to me specifically and you know, and to everyone
• 29:28
  really. So Dr. Ross, back to you.
• 29:31
  Okay. So we had some big news with the
• 29:34
  BlackRock Bitcoin ETF, the SPOT ETF.
• 29:38
  I had two interesting conversations.
• 29:41
  I had an interesting conversation with Caitlyn Long
• 29:43
  and Lawrence, and they come from the skeptical perspective where
• 29:46
  they're just like they're gonna rehypothecate the F out of this.
• 29:50
  And then I talked to Foss and Lavish and they're like, no,
• 29:53
  this is good for Bitcoin. They're not gonna be able to
• 29:55
  rehypothecate it because it's a spot Bitcoin ETF.
• 29:58
  So I wanna get your take on to that and then we'll pass it on
• 30:01
  to Tomer again. Okay.
• 30:03
  So that's deep. So.
• 30:04
  So where do I come in between all those four people whom I all
• 30:08
  respect greatly? Let's see.
• 30:12
  So couple points, First of all, you know Larry Fink, what is was
• 30:19
  the king of ESG which I think is actually pretty evil.
• 30:23
  I I think people think they're saving the world and the
• 30:25
  environment when they are pro proponents of ESG and it
• 30:29
  actually causes more harm than good.
• 30:31
  And he, he has been pushing that narrative as well as this anti
• 30:34
  Bitcoin narrative for a very long time.
• 30:37
  So it is a big deal that Larry Fink of all people is out there
• 30:42
  on the, you know, CNBC and Bloomberg and these major
• 30:45
  economic news channels talking about Bitcoin.
• 30:48
  Like it's a good thing. That is a huge narrative shift.
• 30:52
  Why? For people who are around three
• 30:54
  years ago or so, you may remember when some different
• 30:57
  hedge fund managers came out, big time hedge fund managers
• 31:01
  like Drunken Miller, Paul Tudor, Jones, even a little bit Ray
• 31:04
  Dalio, they came out and we're talking favorably about Bitcoin
• 31:07
  and saying that they own some Bill Miller as well and.
• 31:11
  And what did that do? It removed career risk for hedge
• 31:14
  fund managers to own Bitcoin at in size.
• 31:19
  Now Fast forward to today when somebody like Larry Fink of
• 31:23
  BlackRock says, you know what, we want to create a spot Bitcoin
• 31:27
  ETF and I think Bitcoin is sort of like, you know, digital gold,
• 31:31
  it's an international asset, those kind of things.
• 31:33
  He's not by the way, a Bitcoin guru.
• 31:34
  He, I think he's, I have, I think he has his own Fiat
• 31:39
  purposes for it. He wants to wrap it in a Fiat
• 31:41
  wrapper and make a lot of money off it.
• 31:43
  And he will, but he has changed the narrative.
• 31:48
  So when he comes out and says, I, you know, you should have
• 31:50
  Bitcoin in your portfolio because it's this asset that's
• 31:53
  here to stay. What that does is it changes the
• 31:56
  career risk equation for fund managers and for investment
• 32:01
  advisors and financial planners who before this had been
• 32:05
  extremely opposed to Bitcoin. They believe the headlines, they
• 32:09
  said yes, it's evil, it's used by criminals, it it's boiling
• 32:13
  the oceans, blah blah, blah. All of the nonsense FUD right,
• 32:16
  that we've been forced to listen to and read for the last several
• 32:20
  years, all of that has changed. I think there's, there's a
• 32:23
  palpable shift in the narrative because of Larry Fink and coming
• 32:27
  on board with that. So that's net positive.
• 32:29
  It's obviously net positive for the price of Bitcoin, right.
• 32:33
  If if people are in this technology because it's number
• 32:36
  go up technology and it is, this will help the price to go up.
• 32:39
  More institutions could not participate in for the most part
• 32:44
  in Bitcoin rallies in the past. Now they have the infrastructure
• 32:48
  in place and setting up more so, so that they will bring in a
• 32:51
  wave of liquidity into the price and that will be net positive.
• 32:54
  Now to to to the points of these other people.
• 32:57
  What are the downsides? First of all, Larry Fink, I do
• 33:01
  not believe is a fanatical. He's not Michael Saylor, right?
• 33:04
  Not not even close. And he's he doesn't understand
• 33:06
  it like we understand it. He wants to wrap it.
• 33:09
  I call it wrapped Bitcoin. A spot Bitcoin ETF is basically
• 33:12
  sort of the same thing. It's not.
• 33:14
  It's not the same as owning Bitcoin.
• 33:16
  For people who own Bitcoin and have it in cold storage, and
• 33:20
  they are their own banks, they are enjoying the benefits of
• 33:23
  Bitcoin, the permissionless nature of Bitcoin.
• 33:25
  When you buy a spot Bitcoin ETF, if and when they get approved
• 33:29
  you, you own a product, you get to enjoy the price appreciation
• 33:33
  of Bitcoin, but none of the other benefits and you don't
• 33:36
  actually own that Bitcoin. You own an IOU of Bitcoin.
• 33:40
  So that those are my statements on there.
• 33:41
  And then finally, you know can it be manipulated For sure Wall
• 33:46
  Street will always find ways to manipulate.
• 33:48
  You know can they really do that with this spot Bitcoin ETF?
• 33:52
  Not really. So I would side on that right.
• 33:55
  They the rules of those are you just buy and sell shares based
• 33:58
  on the the support, the demand of Bitcoin whether it's going up
• 34:01
  or down. They should technically hold the
• 34:03
  amount of Bitcoin in their trust that the the people demand.
• 34:07
  And by the way, one other point, All we ever talk about is
• 34:09
  BlackRock and Fink, but there's going to be 15 to 20 other spot
• 34:12
  Bitcoin ETF's out there within a few few months of BlackRock
• 34:16
  approval if that happens in the near future.
• 34:19
  So that's what I hopefully that all made sense.
• 34:21
  I do have a lot of opinions on that.
• 34:22
  It's definitely gonna be a positive for price action, but
• 34:27
  we have to fight for the soul of Bitcoin to maintain this
• 34:31
  parallel financial and monetary network.
• 34:34
  And all stuff there. Okay, I wanna end that.
• 34:36
  With that, we have to fight for the soul of Bitcoin.
• 34:39
  Comer. That's right up your alley.
• 34:41
  So it's so good. Thank Thankfully we have
• 34:44
  something that's attacking Bitcoin.
• 34:46
  That makes us fight for the soul of Bitcoin.
• 34:48
  Because the only danger the Bitcoin is that there aren't
• 34:50
  people stop fighting for the soul of Bitcoin.
• 34:52
  The complacency on our part thinking that we've won that the
• 34:56
  that the war is over is is the only real danger Bitcoin faces.
• 35:01
  Like as long as. There are people explaining the
• 35:04
  things that Jeff just explained about how important it is to
• 35:07
  hold your own keys, about how important it is to not let
• 35:10
  everything get wrapped up or rehypothecated at all or any of
• 35:14
  these things. That's that's the movement,
• 35:17
  right? Bitcoin is.
• 35:18
  Bitcoin is not just a piece of technology that runs itself,
• 35:21
  although nobody is in charge of it.
• 35:23
  We are all in charge of it, right?
• 35:25
  Like we all, we all run Bitcoin. And so it requires that we run
• 35:29
  it with. Attention to the detail of how
• 35:31
  it's meant to be run and the people are curious and and as
• 35:35
  long as there's people out there saying if you only hold
• 35:39
  BlackRock ETF Bitcoin, then BlackRock can change Bitcoin.
• 35:42
  But if a whole lot of us hold? Self custody Bitcoin.
• 35:46
  All BlackRock can do is make some stupid fork, which has
• 35:50
  happened before in history and will certainly happen again.
• 35:53
  And it'll serve wonderfully as another reminder of what real
• 35:56
  Bitcoin, what real free money is, what real decentralized
• 36:01
  money is against someone who's tried to create a centralized
• 36:04
  fork of it and is going through machinations and.
• 36:07
  Pretend things. And you know, as we move forward
• 36:09
  through history, different things are are going to happen.
• 36:13
  And as as is the case with history, things will rhyme.
• 36:16
  They won't. They won't repeat themselves,
• 36:17
  but they'll rhyme and they'll be similar.
• 36:19
  And so people being concerned about BlackRock succeeding and
• 36:23
  trying to take control of Bitcoin is wonderful.
• 36:26
  Right, Because it means people are becoming vigilant or
• 36:29
  remaining vigilant about what it takes for Bitcoin to succeed.
• 36:32
  And I think as long as we do that, we actually have nothing
• 36:34
  to fear, right? Like I I can see there will be a
• 36:38
  big, let's say the BlackRock ETF gets approved.
• 36:40
  There's a big rush of dollars in into the bit, into the BlackRock
• 36:44
  ETF. It ends up owning a whole lot of
• 36:45
  Bitcoin. What's going to happen is.
• 36:48
  A lot of people are going to warn a lot of other people to
• 36:50
  say, you know, they can rehypothecate it and you don't
• 36:53
  have proof of reserves, you don't actually control the
• 36:56
  coins, you can't do a BCD with it.
• 36:59
  All you can do is sell it for dollars and then and then use
• 37:01
  dollars. And so as as all the various
• 37:03
  things happen in the Bitcoin ecosystem, more and more people
• 37:06
  will want to say, well, OK, how do I convert my BlackRock ETF
• 37:09
  not back into dollars but into actual Bitcoin?
• 37:12
  And not all Bitcoin will be self custody, right?
• 37:14
  This is another important thing to remember, but there are
• 37:16
  different ways in which Bitcoin might seem.
• 37:18
  To be wrapped that are more or less secure, you know, more more
• 37:23
  or less decentralized. And I think that's part of the
• 37:25
  growth. Like, I don't have the answers
• 37:27
  to exactly how it will fully scale up.
• 37:30
  There's all these new scaling solutions.
• 37:32
  They each have their strengths and weaknesses.
• 37:34
  And the mix of all of these scaling solutions, I think, is
• 37:36
  what's going to keep Bitcoin decentralized while also scaled
• 37:41
  to hopefully every single person on the planet, or, you know,
• 37:44
  every single one of them who wants to use it when many of
• 37:47
  them realize that. All of its benefits and do want
• 37:50
  to use it, so maybe pause there. There's a few other angles to go
• 37:54
  down, but this is good for Bitcoin because it looks like
• 37:57
  it's gonna be bad for Bitcoin. Yeah, I love that angle, right,
• 38:03
  Which is it gets people to care and people are suspicious,
• 38:08
  rightly So, what you were saying earlier, Dr. Ross about?
• 38:12
  It's true. Larry Fink was one of the
• 38:15
  biggest proponents of, you know this whole ESG movement.
• 38:19
  But I was actually talking to I think it was Jimmy Song a couple
• 38:23
  weeks ago Tomer and we were talking about the, the and I
• 38:27
  think we we were talking about this and earlier in the
• 38:30
  conversation as well. Is this kind of misalignment of
• 38:34
  incentives I think feed the Fiat system itself as Frankenstein
• 38:39
  the incentives and I think. People like Larry Fink and
• 38:42
  people like Powell, you're basically making the case that
• 38:47
  they because they're in these positions of power at such
• 38:51
  heights, they choose to put a veil over their heads and just.
• 38:55
  Blank out, they blank out. A lot of the externalities of
• 38:59
  what they are, correct. So it's a good life, right?
• 39:02
  It's like you. Yeah, you have a safe job.
• 39:05
  There's no danger. You have access.
• 39:06
  You get a, you get a pension, you have inside information
• 39:09
  which you kind of trade on, but you also have protection from
• 39:14
  insider trading rules. Like you, you are super
• 39:17
  privileged, right? You're you, you get caught drunk
• 39:20
  driving, the police officer turned away, or the charges get
• 39:23
  dropped, right? Like there's a tremendous amount
• 39:25
  of privilege involved in in these situations.
• 39:29
  And listen like. Put yourself in the position
• 39:32
  that you actually were drunk driving and you got caught.
• 39:34
  And because of your position, the person said the officer let
• 39:38
  you go. Would you say no, no, you should
• 39:41
  charge me, you know, because it's not fair, because I know
• 39:43
  you would charge somebody else. You you take what you've got and
• 39:46
  you take and you accept the privilege and advantage that you
• 39:49
  have. And I think that that's that's
• 39:52
  what everybody is fundamentally guilty of.
• 39:54
  In a lot of cases, they're not like, no, you know, I I deserve,
• 39:58
  I deserve my just desserts. They're like.
• 40:01
  Good thing, I Good thing I got away with this this time.
• 40:04
  Maybe I won't do it again because who knows if I'll get
• 40:06
  away with it next time. But there's just a lot of this
• 40:09
  brokenness and and you know that I don't want to say that this is
• 40:14
  that this psychological factor is something that Bitcoin fixes,
• 40:17
  right? Like people who find themselves
• 40:20
  in a position of privilege taking advantage of it when it
• 40:23
  presents itself is is a flying human psychology right?
• 40:29
  It's not it's not even a flaw. It's a self-defense mechanisms
• 40:32
  rival mechanism, right. Like you, you should die.
• 40:34
  I will let you live. Which do you choose?
• 40:36
  Well, I choose to live, right. So like that's that's incentive.
• 40:40
  I think what what Bitcoin fixes, it's taking away all of these
• 40:43
  broken incentives and and broken privileges and everybody's like,
• 40:48
  it's a peer-to-peer system, right?
• 40:50
  Everyone. There's one rank in Bitcoin.
• 40:53
  Everybody has it peer and everyone has access to it and
• 40:57
  there's no special rank, there's no, you know, there's peer which
• 41:00
  is participant and then there's non participant and non
• 41:03
  participants don't influence and affect the system.
• 41:06
  But what we're trying to do is educate everybody in the world
• 41:10
  so that they choose to be a participant, not are forced to
• 41:13
  be a participant. Although in many cases in the
• 41:15
  futures people might say what choice did I have but to use
• 41:18
  Bitcoin, that's what everybody wants.
• 41:20
  Well, you still have the choice to not use Bitcoin, right?
• 41:23
  Like nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying you must
• 41:25
  use Bitcoin. People are holding a gun to your
• 41:27
  head and saying you must pay. You must use the dollar, right?
• 41:30
  Like over here it's it's quiet but if you don't use the dollar
• 41:34
  you're forbidden you know from from transacting but it's it's
• 41:37
  it's worse than a gun to your head.
• 41:38
  It's a nuclear missile to your to your state.
• 41:41
  It's it's fighter jets over your state if you don't use, if you
• 41:46
  don't use and accept the dollar. So like this is a really it's
• 41:50
  the biggest revolution because it's the voluntary revolution.
• 41:52
  You know people call it the peaceful revolution in a sense,
• 41:55
  yes, but it's it's the voluntary revolution.
• 41:57
  Every bitcoiner in the world chose to be a bitcoiner.
• 42:00
  They weren't born into a Bitcoin standard.
• 42:03
  They weren't born into a world where someone said you must use
• 42:06
  Bitcoin. So like it's going to take time
• 42:09
  because this isn't we conquer nations one at a time like
• 42:12
  Alexander the Great. We March in and we say from now
• 42:14
  on, these are your coins. It's like every single person is
• 42:18
  persuaded individually and they're not even persuaded to
• 42:21
  make it their sole currency, right?
• 42:22
  Like every one of us, I think is mixed, right?
• 42:25
  But I still have dollars. I still have I.
• 42:27
  I have Bitcoin. I want to be able to rid myself
• 42:30
  of the dollar. But even in that case, I
• 42:33
  acknowledge that I live in a reality where where it's mixed.
• 42:35
  So this this peaceful empire, this of the of the realm of
• 42:40
  Bitcoin, where Bitcoin is the coin of of the realm is a 11 by
• 42:46
  1 revolution through reason not through violence.
• 42:51
  And and I I think that's kind of where it's interesting.
• 42:53
  We haven't heard that much from Jason Lowry lately.
• 42:56
  He had this thesis of Bitcoin as some is a kind of military
• 43:00
  technology as a form of software.
• 43:01
  And I I find myself like split so far apart that I come back
• 43:07
  around to myself on this like we're at war over market share
• 43:11
  of what we use as currency, of what we use a store of value.
• 43:15
  And bitcoins at war with a dollar, the dollars at war with
• 43:18
  real estate and other securities and everything, because many
• 43:22
  people have chosen that they don't want to use the dollar.
• 43:24
  And so the dollar is there by force of government and all
• 43:26
  these other instruments are there and ways to avoid the
• 43:29
  hidden tax of inflation. And Bitcoin is fighting that.
• 43:33
  And Bitcoin survives it in a very different way.
• 43:35
  It survives it by having very, by having no leaders and having
• 43:39
  nothing that you can touch and destroy and not being in any
• 43:41
  place at any point in time and hiding behind encryption.
• 43:44
  And so it's like it's a survival.
• 43:47
  It's a it's a survival thing. And and so in that sense, it's
• 43:51
  at war. But war involves destruction.
• 43:55
  Typically when people talk about it involves destruction and
• 43:58
  violence and bloodshed. And Bitcoin doesn't.
• 44:01
  And Jason acknowledges this in his book.
• 44:02
  So I don't want to mischaracterize what he says,
• 44:04
  but this is something where, you know, even if you want to attack
• 44:07
  Bitcoin, you don't do it by force, you you do it by trying
• 44:11
  to mine, trying to double spend a block and mine it.
• 44:14
  So you do it through this nonviolent means.
• 44:16
  So even going to war with Bitcoin is nonviolent.
• 44:20
  So the whole thing is just, it's so new.
• 44:21
  And so like I, I it's such a revolutionary idea.
• 44:26
  Not on the sense that it's a yes, it's a revolution and how
• 44:28
  we think of money, but it's an idea that's so extraordinary,
• 44:31
  that's so unprecedented. It's so revolutionary in that
• 44:33
  sense. It's just even thinking about it
• 44:35
  and using typical words to describe it is really, really
• 44:38
  hard because. So, so Tomer, and that's why,
• 44:42
  like that's why this revolutionary idea it's ground
• 44:45
  up. I agree with you, right It's
• 44:46
  it's winning over. It's not this top down.
• 44:50
  Type of movement that's being force fed down people's throats.
• 44:54
  It's really winning over the hearts and minds of people via
• 44:58
  greed and and that's why and I want to pass it on to doctor
• 45:01
  Jeff Ross. I want to get your your your
• 45:03
  thoughts on this. That's why I believe, like,
• 45:06
  maybe you're starting to see Larry Fink bend the knee to
• 45:12
  bitcoins. Irresistible incentives.
• 45:16
  And then maybe is that what we're seeing Dr. Ross or is this
• 45:20
  is this, are you still cautious? So, so couple things.
• 45:25
  Well, first of all, regarding Fink, I am still cautious.
• 45:27
  I think he's still a Fiat Maxi and he's just using this.
• 45:31
  He sees this as a new product where he can make a ton of money
• 45:34
  by building ETF's around it. So he wants to wrap Bitcoin in a
• 45:37
  Fiat product and make a ton of money.
• 45:39
  And he will. He'll get even more wealthy than
• 45:41
  he is. But so but.
• 45:43
  Getting to your point and to Tomer's point about, you know
• 45:46
  Jason Lowry, in the military, Bitcoin is for everyone, right?
• 45:49
  It's inevitable that at some point just like everybody uses
• 45:53
  the dollar today or most people use the dollar.
• 45:55
  I I truly think that at some point possibly in my lifetime,
• 45:58
  every and by to answer your question told me I'm 48.
• 46:00
  My birthday is next month but. That's I think everybody is
• 46:05
  either pre Bitcoin or a Bitcoiner.
• 46:08
  And So what are we gonna do? Will Wall Street embrace it?
• 46:12
  Sure, at some point, Wall Street will absolutely embrace it.
• 46:14
  In fact, they are now, at some point, will presidential
• 46:16
  candidates start talking about it?
• 46:18
  Sure, they already are right now, right.
• 46:19
  That's a huge change, a huge shift from four years ago.
• 46:23
  Which is pretty amazing, if you think about it.
• 46:25
  Will military officers be into Bitcoin?
• 46:27
  Absolutely. You know, and so you can just go
• 46:29
  on and on. If you're a person anywhere in
• 46:32
  the world, will you someday embrace Bitcoin?
• 46:34
  I think the answer is yes. And everybody has their own
• 46:37
  belief system. Everybody has their own way of
• 46:39
  viewing the world, right? To a hammer, everything looks
• 46:41
  like a nail. To a surgeon, everything looks
• 46:45
  like it needs a surgical fix. It's just how the world works,
• 46:49
  right? And so and so to get back to
• 46:51
  Tomer's point earlier, we shouldn't really be overly
• 46:55
  worried about it, because the fact that it raises the hackles
• 46:58
  of true bitcoiners when we see Wall Street come on board and
• 47:01
  try to wrap it and package it in their own entity.
• 47:05
  It raises hackles. The cyber Hornets come out.
• 47:08
  We fight again for the heart and soul of what Bitcoin is.
• 47:11
  Everybody is out there encouraging people.
• 47:14
  Hold your own keys. Not your keys, not your coins.
• 47:16
  Not your keys, not your coins, right?
• 47:17
  Like, don't trust BlackRock or any major institution with your
• 47:21
  Bitcoin because we don't know what they're going to do with
• 47:24
  that. You don't take that risk.
• 47:26
  There are tons of risks to not holding your own Bitcoin.
• 47:29
  So that's how I view it. I think it's inevitable.
• 47:31
  And with every new group, every new institution.
• 47:34
  Every new government that comes on board, and I do think every
• 47:37
  government at someday will come on board with Bitcoin probably
• 47:41
  in my lifetime. You know, if I live a typical
• 47:43
  age, we'll have to deal with the repercussions of that.
• 47:46
  What does it mean if America comes into Bitcoin in force?
• 47:49
  And just like, you know what, we are going to literally turn our
• 47:51
  printers on and just buy as much Bitcoin as possible.
• 47:53
  Obviously that would be huge for the price.
• 47:56
  But it would, it would change, could change the heart and soul
• 47:59
  of Bitcoin. So we would need to fight
• 48:00
  against that. What about if it was China or
• 48:02
  Russia, right? That's that.
• 48:03
  That brings on whole new belief systems to deal with.
• 48:06
  So we just got to keep fighting and take things as they come.
• 48:09
  I think all of it is inevitable. We will fight every one of those
• 48:12
  battles in the next 1020 thirty years, I think. 100% agree with
• 48:17
  You have to stay vigilant. I want to throw.
• 48:21
  Another macro question back at you, Dr. Ross, and then of
• 48:25
  course Tomer's interpretation of it.
• 48:28
  So okay. My question to you is, I feel
• 48:33
  like you've been on the pod the last year at least twice and
• 48:38
  I've asked you the same question.
• 48:40
  Where's the recession? It hasn't come yet, right.
• 48:43
  It's going on. Did they achieve the soft
• 48:49
  landing? If they achieved the soft
• 48:51
  landing, does that mean that? Doesn't that mean that the
• 48:53
  central bankers got their way? What's going on there?
• 48:56
  Where is this recession? So there's two ways to think
• 48:59
  about it, right? So there's one is that the that
• 49:02
  narrative is correct and that we are going to have a soft
• 49:05
  landing. Could that happen?
• 49:07
  Sure. The last time that happened
• 49:10
  significantly was 2000 to 2003 or so after everybody remembers
• 49:14
  thatasthe.com crash. But we did have a mild recession
• 49:17
  during that period as well, and stocks did not, did not do well
• 49:20
  over that period. And NASDAQ stocks got decimated.
• 49:23
  They went down like 80 some percent.
• 49:25
  What happened then? It's similar to what we're
• 49:26
  seeing so far today. We're we're actually in
• 49:31
  indisputable. Manufacturing recession.
• 49:34
  Right now, manufacturing has been contracting both in the US
• 49:37
  and around the world for several months now.
• 49:40
  It's absolutely in a recession. People are losing manufacturing
• 49:43
  jobs. New orders continue to kind of
• 49:47
  dry up. It's pretty ugly out there if
• 49:49
  you're in the manufacturing industry, but.
• 49:52
  America is not a manufacturing economy anymore.
• 49:54
  Tomer actually touched on this earlier.
• 49:55
  I had to do with why. The minute we had a prosperous
• 49:57
  middle class before, what did we do?
• 49:59
  We exported our manufacturing offshore, gave gave most of it
• 50:03
  to Asia, lots of it to China. So America is a services, a
• 50:08
  service based economy. Now services are not yet in a
• 50:12
  contraction and they may not be. So when we get these, what we
• 50:15
  call soft landing recessions, what usually happens is.
• 50:19
  Similar to what we see, what we're seeing today is
• 50:21
  unemployment doesn't budget too much.
• 50:23
  Manufacturing goes into contraction mode, but the
• 50:27
  services sector remains in a somewhat mild expansionary mode,
• 50:31
  which is what they are right now.
• 50:33
  If it's it's possible that manufacturing will bottom in the
• 50:36
  next couple of months and then turn higher and get back to
• 50:39
  expansionary mode, we may actually avoid a significant
• 50:42
  recession. That's actually possible.
• 50:44
  But when you look at things like the credit standards are
• 50:48
  tightening, lending is is kind of drying up significantly with
• 50:52
  banks. We still have these regional
• 50:54
  bank issues out there. We still have these rates that
• 50:56
  are suffocating businesses. We still have lots of junk rated
• 51:00
  companies with junk rated debt that are not going to be able to
• 51:03
  roll over their debt. They've been paying really low
• 51:05
  interest rates on, you know, even though they have a crappy
• 51:08
  business. Those interest rates are jacked
• 51:10
  up like 6% or more higher. And to Tomer's point, they're
• 51:13
  paying many multiples of dollars more than they used to have to
• 51:16
  pay. They're going to go under.
• 51:18
  We're seeing lots of defaults already start to happen.
• 51:20
  The longer rates stay high, the less chance these companies, I
• 51:24
  call them zombie companies because they can't afford to pay
• 51:26
  their debt, the less chance they have it surviving.
• 51:29
  If that happens and it rolls over quickly, that could throw
• 51:32
  us into a deeper recession. So that's the other path.
• 51:35
  So path one is we actually do get this soft recession.
• 51:37
  And it turns out, hey, I guess. Those guys are right.
• 51:40
  The other path is services get sucked down into contractionary
• 51:43
  mode or recessionary mode, like manufacturing is.
• 51:47
  We see this huge spillover into these junky companies and they
• 51:51
  go up, they go belly up, They default.
• 51:54
  On their debt and we have a serious recession and and you
• 51:57
  know, you look at the yield curve still being inverted.
• 51:59
  What that tells me is we're still not at the point where the
• 52:02
  recession is ready to start yet. Look at the yield curve
• 52:05
  inversion, look at unemployment, it still remains low.
• 52:07
  It's undeniable. It just continues to remain very
• 52:10
  low. If we do head into a deep
• 52:12
  recession, that will spike, and it will spike quickly.
• 52:15
  And then the other thing to look at as far as a recessionary
• 52:19
  indicator is the high yield, OAS options adjusted spreads.
• 52:23
  That's the difference in the yields between this high yield
• 52:26
  or junk debt. What that yields, which is
• 52:28
  typically much higher than what underlying treasuries.
• 52:32
  Yield, when you're in a complacent economy and the stock
• 52:37
  markets doing well like we are right now in volatility is low,
• 52:40
  that spread shrinks overtime. But when you head into recession
• 52:43
  and people start to panic and those companies start to go
• 52:45
  bankrupt, you'll see that yield blow out.
• 52:48
  So right now we're in this. Kind of like Goldilocks happy
• 52:51
  place with with that indicator, if and when we do head into a
• 52:55
  recessionary bear market, we'll see that spread blow out and
• 53:00
  that'll be the time to to get nervous, to get to get worried.
• 53:03
  So to answer your question, where is it, it's not here yet
• 53:06
  and and I don't think it's coming, you know, anytime soon
• 53:08
  based on the indicators I look at.
• 53:10
  If it does, you know I'll have you can have me back on your
• 53:13
  show and I'll let you know that I'm starting to get nervous
• 53:15
  again. But I'm not nervous right now.
• 53:16
  Gotcha, gotcha. And then my question to you,
• 53:18
  Tomer, is if they pull off this soft landing, doesn't that kind
• 53:23
  of defeat a lot of the narratives that bitcoiners were
• 53:26
  saying about central bankers? Like, it's interesting I try to
• 53:31
  focus on real life rather than all the financial instruments
• 53:35
  and derivatives and and where things stand.
• 53:38
  And as far as I'm concerned, in my own personal life and in the
• 53:42
  lives of the people around me, we've been in a recession slash
• 53:46
  depression since March of 2020, since COVID hit.
• 53:50
  And we started to lock down and we found ourselves hoarding
• 53:53
  toilet paper and we couldn't find toilet paper and we were
• 53:56
  not going out to the movies anymore and not going to plays
• 53:59
  and not going to sporting events and not going to restaurants and
• 54:01
  not going to theaters. And our quality of life in terms
• 54:06
  of what we're actually doing and spending and enjoying has took a
• 54:11
  step back. And for very few people who I
• 54:14
  know has it does it seem to have returned to pre 2020 levels.
• 54:20
  And so like for me, there people are, people are watching what
• 54:24
  they buy, they're pinching their their pennies, They are
• 54:29
  concerned, they're carrying anxiety around because they
• 54:32
  don't because the future seems uncertain.
• 54:36
  Many people still carry over concerns about healthcare.
• 54:40
  What we do spend our money on has become skewed not the things
• 54:44
  that increase our actual quality of life, but increase our, you
• 54:47
  know, our concerns. There's more money spent on
• 54:51
  anxiety, medication, vaccines, all these sorts of things.
• 54:54
  I can't be too concrete about everything because everyone's
• 54:56
  experience is different. But I just see that there's
• 54:59
  less, you know, there's less steaks in the supermarket
• 55:02
  because the price is higher and people are buying less of it.
• 55:05
  That is that to me is a recession, right?
• 55:08
  I used to be able to afford steak regularly and now I buy
• 55:10
  ground beef when I can't and I buy ramen noodles if I'm in a
• 55:14
  different situation. So I I think I think we've,
• 55:17
  we've suffered A setback, you know, some of it.
• 55:19
  To again be fair to the Central bankers is the world got caught
• 55:22
  in a panic, maybe right? And believe, maybe wrongly,
• 55:25
  about how dangerous COVID was. And we went into this lockdown
• 55:31
  mode, and a lot of the economy shut down when people didn't.
• 55:33
  People stop going to the slaughterhouses.
• 55:37
  So no wonder meat dried up, people stop going to factories,
• 55:41
  people stop doing all sorts of things.
• 55:42
  It's kind of easy to restart a service economy, but if the
• 55:45
  services are, you're going to see a therapist because you've
• 55:48
  got psychological conditions that measures as a growth in
• 55:51
  GDP. It does not measure in a growth
• 55:53
  in our quality of life. If you didn't need a therapist
• 55:56
  before, that was a better situation.
• 55:58
  So I'm I I find this very cloudy picture.
• 56:03
  It's one thing to just measure things as a number, as GDP, but
• 56:07
  it is it's quite another to say like what's my quality of life?
• 56:10
  What's my quality of happiness? Am I happier?
• 56:12
  And that that's why I think recession is kind of this word
• 56:15
  or the real word is the word that people used to use was
• 56:17
  depression. Am I finding myself depressed as
• 56:20
  my mood, my quality of life destroyed?
• 56:23
  Or am I in a joyful period and I just don't see anywhere near as
• 56:27
  much joy as we used to see years ago?
• 56:30
  And we're at the risk of forgetting how joyful we once
• 56:34
  were and how how anxious and anxiety ridden we we now are.
• 56:39
  So I don't mean to paint it as a negative picture, but but
• 56:42
  zooming out, I'm just not seeing the kind of happiness and joy
• 56:45
  that we that we experienced before all this got going.
• 56:49
  And so I'm less, I'm less focused on these small
• 56:52
  percentage points of numbers and yield curves and options and
• 56:55
  stuff. I'm just saying I want to be
• 56:57
  happier. I want to see the people around
• 56:59
  me happier and doing the kinds of things that make them happy
• 57:02
  and not so distressed. But I don't know.
• 57:04
  Maybe I'm gloomy and turning people off, but it just seems to
• 57:08
  me that that is. I love, I love the way that you
• 57:12
  define that. And I actually want to push it
• 57:14
  off, push it back to Dr. Ross. Under that definition, under
• 57:18
  that outlook, right, Cuz it's a lot more personable, would you
• 57:22
  say we we like we're in Tomer's definition or the way that Tomer
• 57:27
  described a recession or depression?
• 57:29
  Yeah, 100%. In fact, to piggyback and
• 57:32
  accentuate what Tomer said, we went over 2 years, which I think
• 57:38
  was the longest streak ever for the United States with
• 57:41
  decreasing. Real income.
• 57:44
  Meaning that even though Americans had some income
• 57:47
  growth, inflation grew faster for over two straight years,
• 57:51
  meaning quality of life for everybody went down, meaning
• 57:54
  everybody's working hard, but they can afford less and less.
• 57:57
  So the stake Tomar was talking about, Now they're buying
• 57:59
  hamburger, right? And and that's happening all
• 58:02
  across America. And so you see that you know
• 58:04
  money isn't happiness, but man, when you have money problems.
• 58:08
  You struggle and it's hard to to to be happy, right.
• 58:10
  And that causes, that's number one issue in marriages, so bad
• 58:14
  marriages. The number one thing that people
• 58:16
  struggle with is, is money issues.
• 58:19
  So totally agree with that. And in fact, I think that's
• 58:22
  going to be unfortunately the theme of this decade.
• 58:25
  I think we're going to have what what we call stagflation.
• 58:28
  Again, that's just another fancy turn.
• 58:29
  All that means is a stagnant economy, so not much growth.
• 58:33
  Happening but higher than we're used to and more volatile
• 58:36
  inflation. The last time we had that
• 58:38
  significantly was back in the 1970s, even though life is
• 58:41
  really, we have a lot more debt now, So it's actually worse now.
• 58:44
  But the last time we remember it was that I'm old enough to
• 58:47
  remember it. Right, right.
• 58:49
  Yeah. I was born in the 70s.
• 58:50
  I think I was born in the worst year of of that.
• 58:54
  But, so, so case in point though, that was remembered as a
• 58:57
  tough decade for America and a tough decade around the world,
• 59:01
  mostly the Western world actually emerging markets did
• 59:03
  OK. There are different.
• 59:05
  So you know, as an investor, there are different ways to
• 59:07
  think about things that do well, things like hard assets, things
• 59:11
  like gold, you know, property did well, commodities in general
• 59:14
  did well, emerging markets did well as investments.
• 59:17
  And I think, you know, obviously they didn't have Bitcoin around
• 59:20
  that time. Now we do.
• 59:21
  To me, that's very encouraging for people who are in the
• 59:24
  Bitcoin space. If you're just hunkering down
• 59:26
  and working hard and staying humble, as Odell would say in
• 59:29
  stacking Sats you're, I think you're going to do pretty well.
• 59:33
  And you may notice that your quality of life and your
• 59:35
  depression levels should improve relative to the rest of America.
• 59:40
  I'm actually worried for America as a whole for this decade.
• 59:43
  I think it's going to be a really rough and tumultuous
• 59:46
  decade in general for America, and we're already living through
• 59:48
  it. It started in 2020 and it's
• 59:49
  just, it's just continuing on. Yeah, So I want to be respectful
• 59:54
  of you guys's time. We are at the top of the hour,
• 59:56
  so I want to get some closy thought, closing thoughts from
• 59:59
  you, Tomer first and then Dr. Ross.
• 1:00:01
  So Tomer, how do we bring back the joy?
• 1:00:03
  How do we bring back the the, the happiness?
• 1:00:06
  That's a great question. I mean, I I think part of it is,
• 1:00:11
  is is learning to, you know, I think back to the 70s and again
• 1:00:15
  this notion of history rhyming and people became comfortable.
• 1:00:19
  They adapted to the fact that the economy wasn't growing.
• 1:00:22
  They adapted to the fact that there was inflation and they
• 1:00:24
  found happiness and it through culture, right.
• 1:00:26
  Like you take a look at the music from the late 70s, it's a
• 1:00:28
  little bit sad, but it's beautiful music and you know,
• 1:00:33
  and we ended up with good movies and we ended up with a lot of a
• 1:00:36
  lot of good culture. So I think, I think we kind of
• 1:00:39
  went to this point where our culture really got corrupted and
• 1:00:42
  and maybe I'm hopeful we'll start to see positive culture
• 1:00:45
  emerging from the from the the decadence and the blood of the
• 1:00:49
  decadence because you can't, you can't rely on decadence for it.
• 1:00:53
  I think, I do think Bitcoin is the unique, you know, it's a
• 1:00:56
  wild card in history that didn't exist back then, right?
• 1:00:59
  That 70s recession was caused by none other than 1971, right?
• 1:01:04
  Like suddenly the government's had all this money they started
• 1:01:06
  spending. You can take a look at the
• 1:01:08
  charts again, like deficits. And suddenly in 1972 there's a
• 1:01:13
  deficit as big as World War Two, even though we're not at war and
• 1:01:16
  and they only grow from there. So Bitcoin is this wild card
• 1:01:21
  because it offers this transition to a way to get back
• 1:01:25
  into sound money that the government can't stop.
• 1:01:28
  Like they seized, they seized all the gold.
• 1:01:30
  So you couldn't get, you couldn't get the gold back to
• 1:01:32
  return to a gold standard and and everything was accelerating.
• 1:01:35
  So I'm hopeful that there is this gradual adoption of Bitcoin
• 1:01:39
  that brings us back to sound money and makes us respond and
• 1:01:42
  you know, returns this notion of responsibility.
• 1:01:45
  And with responsibility comes joy.
• 1:01:47
  Some of the stuff is cycles that repeat.
• 1:01:49
  Some of it is accelerated or amplified by other kinds of big
• 1:01:54
  problems we've had, and I think we've had all kinds of big
• 1:01:56
  problems. I don't have the crystal ball,
• 1:02:00
  so I don't know exactly where we sit in the course of the demise
• 1:02:03
  of the Fiat currency. But given that we're headed for
• 1:02:08
  tough times, I think people will learn to learn to live with
• 1:02:12
  tough times and and that and then the joy comes back.
• 1:02:15
  Because right now it's a the depression comes from the fact
• 1:02:17
  that you missed all the all the decadence that you had and you
• 1:02:21
  want it back and you feel poor about it when you come to accept
• 1:02:24
  it, learn to have fun. Staying poor is part of it, is
• 1:02:28
  part of the answer, but you know and part of it is just bearing
• 1:02:34
  down and and continuing to do what's good.
• 1:02:38
  Yeah, and staying humble, stacking sats and.
• 1:02:41
  Dr. Ross, how do how do investors navigate the next 6 to
• 1:02:46
  12 months? And of course, this isn't
• 1:02:48
  advice. This isn't this isn't financial
• 1:02:51
  advice, but as if we were speaking as friends.
• 1:02:55
  Yeah, never advice, right. I can't give that.
• 1:02:57
  I literally can't give it. It's it's not not legal for me
• 1:03:00
  to do so. So just in general, right?
• 1:03:02
  What are we talking about generally?
• 1:03:03
  There are still, there's lots of ugliness out there.
• 1:03:06
  I think we're going to be talking about this kind of stuff
• 1:03:08
  for the rest of this decade, probably.
• 1:03:11
  It's gonna be a frustrating, volatile, tumultuous decade.
• 1:03:16
  In general, the things that worked really well last decade,
• 1:03:20
  when we had zero interest rate policy and just massive QE, are
• 1:03:23
  less likely to work this decade just because it's a different
• 1:03:27
  decade, right? And so you just have to think
• 1:03:30
  about things to sum everything up and to sort of piggyback on
• 1:03:34
  what Tomer was saying. The people who control the money
• 1:03:37
  have the power, right? And so that control right now
• 1:03:40
  rests almost predominantly with the United States government and
• 1:03:44
  their central bank. Bitcoin is so unique because
• 1:03:48
  what it does is it transfers the ownership and the control of
• 1:03:52
  money back to the people. That distributes it out to the
• 1:03:55
  world, to the people. So over time, I do think that in
• 1:03:59
  our lifetime, in my lifetime, we're going to see that Power
• 1:04:03
  Distribution. Get sucked out slowly from the
• 1:04:06
  government in this sly, roundabout way and go over to
• 1:04:10
  the people. And so over time, what we're
• 1:04:12
  going to see is bitcoiners start to flourish, right?
• 1:04:14
  They're gonna start to work hard.
• 1:04:16
  They're gonna start to build things that last instead of this
• 1:04:18
  cheap stuff that breaks. They're going to be become
• 1:04:21
  savers instead of speculators, and it's going to incentivize a
• 1:04:25
  totally different and I think a much better world.
• 1:04:28
  It's going to take a while though.
• 1:04:29
  I mean, it's not going to happen tomorrow.
• 1:04:31
  It's not going to happen because we voted the right president in
• 1:04:33
  for sure, right. It's not the politicians who are
• 1:04:35
  going to do that. It's because of this sly,
• 1:04:38
  roundabout incentive structure that's different from the
• 1:04:40
  current one and very and and I think much better the people who
• 1:04:44
  are in charge right now, who benefit from the current
• 1:04:47
  structure and from the cantalon effects, from being close to the
• 1:04:49
  money printer. For those kind of people,
• 1:04:51
  they're gonna still hate it all the way, you know, until they
• 1:04:53
  die, probably. But for the rest of the world,
• 1:04:57
  for humanity, I'm actually extremely hopeful.
• 1:04:59
  Despite this really dark decade, in this kind of scary and
• 1:05:02
  tumultuous decade, I'm very hopeful that the future is going
• 1:05:05
  to be much brighter and much better for, you know, when I'm
• 1:05:08
  older, but especially for my kids and grandkids, I'm, I'm
• 1:05:11
  looking forward to what's next. That's really maybe I can just
• 1:05:15
  finish off, finish that thought off with with a capstone of a
• 1:05:19
  thought on it. I think your happiness isn't a
• 1:05:23
  sense of function of what you measure your happiness with.
• 1:05:27
  And for those people who are measuring with a low time
• 1:05:30
  preference for the long term, we're at the dawn of an amazing
• 1:05:34
  age and we're at the dawn of the return of multigenerational
• 1:05:37
  projects. Money that can last, money that
• 1:05:39
  is sound. A civilization that will be
• 1:05:41
  based off of sound practices, right?
• 1:05:43
  That when I talked about how the future will look back at this
• 1:05:47
  time and say we used a primitive money, we're on the verge of not
• 1:05:51
  being primitive anymore. But for people who measure
• 1:05:53
  everything in the short term, who are like next month, next
• 1:05:56
  week, next quarter, they're in for many quarters of misery
• 1:06:02
  because they won't be seeing the big picture of what's shifting.
• 1:06:05
  They're they're just seeing what's short So and they'll be
• 1:06:08
  critical of Bitcoin. They'll say, look, Bitcoin, you
• 1:06:10
  know, Bitcoin hasn't gone up in the last year.
• 1:06:12
  How can you tell me it's the next great thing?
• 1:06:15
  I'm not focused on the next year, right?
• 1:06:16
  I'm focused on my kids and their kids and and what the
• 1:06:20
  generations can do and the excitement about the
• 1:06:23
  generational projects we're going to get into.
• 1:06:25
  Bit Bitcoin is itself, of course, a generational project,
• 1:06:27
  right? Just phase one, the initial coin
• 1:06:29
  distribution takes 140 years. I like that's the way that
• 1:06:33
  Satoshi was thinking about this thing.
• 1:06:35
  So it's like this is not. He didn't build it to succeed in
• 1:06:38
  the first quarter that he launched it.
• 1:06:40
  He didn't even necessarily build it to succeed what in his
• 1:06:43
  lifetime. He didn't build it to succeed in
• 1:06:45
  our lifetime. They built it to last for
• 1:06:48
  generations for who knows how many years, right, that that
• 1:06:52
  initial block is there forever, right?
• 1:06:54
  Like it's indestructible in malleable.
• 1:06:57
  So it's a monument to last forever.
• 1:06:58
  And and I think that that's that's where the hope and the
• 1:07:01
  joy can really come from. And as we start to see success
• 1:07:04
  in there, you know like people were poor people have been very
• 1:07:07
  joyful in history. People came who came to America
• 1:07:10
  to escape cross the persecution and got to build from nothing,
• 1:07:15
  right that you got to America. There wasn't like a welcome
• 1:07:17
  party, There wasn't border security guard, there wasn't a
• 1:07:19
  highway, there wasn't there was nothing.
• 1:07:21
  But it was a chance to build your, to build the future for
• 1:07:24
  yourself at the frontier. And I think that's where we are
• 1:07:27
  right now, the frontier of a new world with all the benefits that
• 1:07:30
  the last 200 years have built. So that's not be too self filled
• 1:07:36
  with self pity. Amen.
• 1:07:38
  I love it. I love it.
• 1:07:40
  All right. Gentlemen, thank you so much for
• 1:07:42
  joining us today. We really appreciate it.
• 1:07:44
  Dr. Jeff Ross. Thank you, Tomer Strollite.
• 1:07:47
  Thank you so much, gentlemen. Really, really appreciate it.
• 1:07:50
  Put you guys backstage for a second while I wrap it up.
• 1:07:53
  Thank you guys so much for tuning in.
• 1:07:54
  If you enjoyed the episode, smash that like button, consider
• 1:07:56
  subscribing. If you feel like we provided you
• 1:07:58
  value. We'll be back tomorrow 12:15 PM
• 1:08:00
  Eastern Standard Time. I'm not gonna be.
• 1:08:02
  I'm gonna be at A. I'm going to be at the Mining
• 1:08:04
  Disrupt conference, but Opti's going to be holding it down.
• 1:08:06
  Love you all. See you guys on the next one.
• 1:08:09
  Peace out.