Latest / (re)Visitation Rights / #88 Joker (2019) | Turns Out, Being Seen and Being Heard Aren’t the Same | RVR01
Transcript
- Revisitation Rightspod: Welcome to the Revisitation Rights Podcast. I'm Pat. I'm Brandon. I'm Justin. What happened to the ⁓ the Waynes brothers? I thought you were doing the No, the little pistols. I'm Justin. No none of that? Disappoint me. It's cool, comic collected today. I see that because you know, we're talking about his favorite movie of all time. He's vibing right now. Look at look, he got a little cheesy smile on and everything. You know, ⁓ you know what that calmness is? It's it's that calmness is ⁓ it's confidence since he knows this film is the greatest Joker film of time. I know this like the front and the back of my hand. What's that? He's in a flow state right now. And I can't believe I had to watch this shit again. It's fucking disappointing. Anyway. So today's episode is The Joker. J Money. Or sorry, Joker, not The Joker. It's just called Joker. The quick rundown. Released in 2019. Currently has an IMDB score of 8.3 and is ranked the number 88th film of all time with a combined Rotten Tomato score of 78.5. Even that's too high. Had an ⁓ an estimated $55 million budget. And it made 1.79 billion dollars worldwide. A lot of lonely motherfuckers out there that can relate to that. 88 might be a little crazy. So that movie is rated better than Groups of Wrath. Old after No. Movie was written by Todd Phillips and Scott Silver with characters by Bob Kane, Bill Finger, and Jerry Robinson. Directed by Todd Phillips. Bill Bill Finger? Billy Fingers. Yo, Finger, come over here. The jokes of the kid. Yeah, you had to be a fucked up that had to be a Definite hard time in high school. middle school. Directed by Todd Phillips, Starlin Joaquin Fearing, Zazi Beats, Robert De Niro, Francis Conroy. The log line is Arthur Fleck, a party clown and failed stand-up comedian, leads an impoverished life with his ailing mother. However, when society shuns him and brands him as a freak, he decides to embrace the life of chaos in Gotham City. So we'll start with Brandon because this was his this is his fucking wheelhouse right here. No, this is my baby. This is my baby. I can just, you know, cradle it. ⁓ yeah, this is a phenomenal movie. ⁓ amazing from start to finish. I empathize and I definitely understand where he was coming from. And I think this is very just representational of where we are in society that Yeah, like talk to people, ask them how are you doing. sometimes you just need someone to give you a hug. See, that's cool, right? But how did you find that entertaining? Right? Because the job of a movie is to entertain first and foremost before you do anything else. How is that entertaining? I think someone who has at times like had depression and like mental issues. ⁓ I can definitely relate with that and I talk with so many people who can relate to this as well. So it's like it ⁓ shit, like they're actually making something that is representational of what maybe I think it might be a societal thing as we're being like more open with ⁓ our feelings and going to you know our our day to day and just kind to I guess work through life, like work through our issues. I think that resonates and I think it connects with so many people. But how is that entertaining? So you I mean, I get it that it connects to people and you know it's relatable and all that. But how is it entertaining? Well, yeah, I think So it's a movie about depression, right? Like the guy it's a fucking depressing movie, right? Because this guy's getting tortured the entire fucking movie. How is that how do you how does someone find that entertaining? I think it's entertaining when you are looking at something and you might say, Like, I feel like I'm being seen, I'm being hurt like that's like, ⁓ shit you know, like you know, you you stand up straight, you're like, Damn, I'm fucking locked in this movie now. So isn't that more you wouldn't consider that more relatable than entertaining? I mean, I'm also I o ⁓ Batman probably I think growing up was my favorite. It's between him and Spider-Man, but Batman was always one of my favorite comic book heroes. So also looking at the Joker, so like I'm already entertained by that factor of them being able to make a comic book film. Kind of, but like take it outside of that world. So like an art house comic book movie. Yeah, and it and and it it shows like a different ⁓ different perspective, a different side of Joker that we didn't really get to see. I mean, we've seen some comics, some movies, ⁓ animated that kind of go to the folklore of how he becomes him, but we don't get like a in-depth analysis of what makes him him. I understand his like 'cause like like for example, Ice Gate. So The Lords of Dogtown, it was very relatable to me. And in that movie they went through a lot of trauma. They went through a lot of stuff. But It was also entertaining that they can kind of accurately depict those moments from that time and put it, you know, into a film currently or you know when it came out at the time. Yeah, for modern time. For modern time, yeah. So ⁓ and with the Joker especially, it touches on modern day stuff. with the time being set still like in the eighties, but all that stuff is still t kinda like it's still timeless, you know? All of our past generations have gone through very similar trauma, just different time setting. Mm-hmm. You know, so and especially during these current times, it's been and it's just been very daunting and just grim. So ⁓ a ⁓ lot, you know, it's not surprising that a lot of people like relate, you know. Cause I relate too in in in some way. Seeing some of those scenes, I'm like, damn, dude. You know, and I empathize with him a lot too. Which is one thing they they kind of did well too. They they they you know, they really wanted you to empathize with him. before he went that shit crazy. See, I kinda I kinda feel like it was more of like a Like an empathy or like a trauma suffer. Just they gave you blue balls throughout the whole fucking film. Until it was like the the filmmakers. No no no the word what is that? Blue balls. What is that? Oops, ⁓ come on. Do you want me to go into a five minute tire this definition about blue balls? Until until the very end. Where, you know, you had enough. You had to ⁓ hit the climax. That shit would not be so very painful, right? I couldn't think of listen, listen, it's fucking ten forty five at night. This is what you're getting. That climax would be very painful though. That's what I'm saying. It was fucking painful to watch. So I I didn't find it entertaining. I didn't like it at all. Wow. ⁓ I mean I the only part of it I found entertaining was the technical aspects of it. Like I enjoyed the cinematography, although it kind of felt a little too like on the nose. So like all right, everybody understands that green is decaying and you know, everybody knows what film if you're watching this, you kind of know what film colors mean and everything. So green, red Then like a different color green, then he hits the oranges, and it it was just too on the nose. Like I I don't think they did enough to blend the reality and the ⁓ in his mind kind of thing. It was just you knew it was white, you knew this was fake, you knew this was real, like there was no kind of real blending to it, to me at least. And I think that if it was more If everything was a little if they went deeper, because they didn't they it was like they kind of scratched surface and then left to something else. Scratch the surface, left to something else, scratched it, left. They didn't really stick and really stick to anything. ⁓ I think if they would have focused more on that, and I also don't think it was a Joker movie. I think if it was called Fleck or Arthur or anything other than The Joker, I think it probably would have been a little different. Like you would have looked at it through a different lens. and I I just I didn't f I didn't get Joker from it. Personally. Although I never read the comic, so I'm only going but I'm only going by what Joker I know from you know, movies and TV shows. I think that's kind of the point though, 'cause if you if you're trying to like represent people and their mental health, ⁓ everything is very internalized. So I guess when you're talking about if they would have went deeper, ⁓ that's that's a very well known characteristic s where if people are going through things like they never actually want to talk about it and they're just kind of staying They're trying to stay afloat. They're trying to stay as level headed as possible without kind of going into what is causing the the the mood, the the the feelings, because you from that perspective know that if you kind of start to open that up, that you can just really start to spiral. And I think that's kind of what happened at the end when he actually started to express himself. ⁓ I understand your point a hundred percent, but it's still a movie. You have to make a movie. I mean box office said wrong, right? Well, I think people were tricked into thinking they were getting a Joker movie and they got a two hour therapy session. Not therapy. Well it's not like that. You know what I mean. Or they got a two hour therapy after watching the movie. So I I think people got fooled into thinking they were getting a Joker movie. The trailer was great. You know, they I think it did ⁓ you know, numbers off the promotion and let's face it, there's a lot of lonely fucked up people in the world. That can relate and go watch it. So I know I've known people that went to the theater five times and watched it. And I know what kind of people they are. You still talk to them? Here and there. Always send that text, man. Are you good? Everything cool. But sometimes you need that though. And and oftentimes, ⁓ I mean, I don't know if you've if you guys have like lost people to like suicide that came from depression, but it's like, fuck. It maybe that. one message or that one call could have saved it. Like obviously there's a lot of deeper issues, but like him portraying being in like a city and we're in like the metropolitan of New York City and like, you know, you're talking about there's a lot of lonely people and like that's a real thing in a a a very big city where you feel that you are more alone than if you were in a smaller place with like less people. Then you make your city smaller. But how do you do that? Stay within your group. But what if you don't have a group? Find a group. But that's not there's somebody for everybody. That's not as easy for everyone. And I think there's been more articles and research that, you know, obviously with the loneliness thing, you know, there's been many multiple articles lately about how there actually is like a large epidemic of men who are lonely. Who are by themselves, they feel like they can't find family, they can't, they can't find friends, because obviously we communicate differently than than women do. And it only gets more difficult as you get older because people who you might have been close to, obviously they get older. If they get married, if they have kids, then like you know, your dynamics kind of change. So then it's like, do you go younger? Or what avenues do you go to look for people? And then obviously, and then also if you're in this. you know, type of environment where it's like work, work, work, work, work, work, work. Yeah, it's like, you know, sometimes where do you find the energy or the time to be able to go out and cultivate a new relationship? Because ⁓ to me, I think relationships and relate relationships in terms of romantic and friendship are kind of the same. Like, you know, you still have to nurture it. You still have to put in a lot of work and invest in that. And I don't I'm not gonna speak on behalf of people, but I don't think that It's always as easy as doing that the same way when people are like, ⁓ if you're depressed, go work out, go watch a movie, go watch T V and and you know, sometimes people are like, If it were that easy, I would have already done that. Well, have they done that? That's the thing. feel like it kinda the the root of the problem sits in the middle and it can kinda get deeper. So like how Pat said there is someone for everyone but people do have a hard time with trying to find their group is because growing up 'cause a lot of these cases like you know Like, look at Arthur's life, for example, you know, he he was like just left for dead as a child, basically. Like no one cared about him. So when you have that subconsciously being put in your head every day that like and not even being 'cause he's not just being told by like people who 'cause like the un the unseen is also kinda Steam, you know, just by how he is, like, ⁓ you can tell he's been made fun of as a kid. You know, like the little things that you can imagine, like him being picked on for that the movie may not have spoken on, like you can you can see that. So and it's he hasn't able to condition his subconscious enough to Be like, you know what, I can there is a group out there for me, you know? 'Cause there there's quirky, you know, weird dudes out there that embrace it and you know, they they love it. They love themselves, they love how different they are from everyone else. So that's like a whole another avenue on top of that. Well he when after he killed the big guy The little guy told him he was his friend, right? So allegedly. All right. But you know, he you saw him throughout the film in the early parts of the film and there really you know, nobody was aside from the big guy who, you know, set him up a little bit and the other guy in the office, everybody else was relatively decent to him. So it was kinda like, you know, how how yeah, I mean, also you gotta think about it, his you know, his mom kinda gave him that little Munchausen syndrome. So there's there's a little aspect of that also in there. But as far as the technical filmmak like the filmmaking aspect of it, I just think it was overdone. Like they needed to separate it a little bit. So like that's obviously, you know, I like I said, I didn't I didn't read the comics, so that's not the Joker story that I know. I did I I obviously can't relate to to that personally. So it had no real relatable and although I never really looked to relate to anything in a film anyway. ⁓ if a if a writer is good enough, you'll relate to something that has nothing to do with you. ⁓ but I just don't think I think if it wasn't for the marketing for the film, it definitely wouldn't have done what it did. I think it was A1 marketing. And D minus filmmaking. From a story point story point of view. Obviously it looked beautiful it looked beautiful. It was Decently acted. I think it was a little overacted. Whoa. Definitely overacted now. Whoa. Definitely. Wow. You don't think that laugh was fake? I mean, you don't think that laugh was real? No, that sounded terrible. That's a real laugh. Did you ever did you never ⁓ did you ever watch like the the Mark Hamill Joker cartoon animated Batman series? I don't watch cartoons. Wow. As an adult. Well though I don't watch like those type of cartoons. Like I I'll watch Looney Tunes. What do you mean those type of cartoons? Like the the ones that look like a movie. Like you know, the new age animation type style. No, this is from the nineties. ⁓ duh. Like that's when like X Men started becoming popular, right? Like they had they kinda changed the style of animation. ⁓ my Yeah. I I was good with the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles style animation. G. I. Joe. Thundercats, like that was it. Once I was eleven years old, I was outside all the time. Yeah, G.I. Joe was lit. So Sat Saturday mornings, you know, it was mostly for sports. My ⁓ but yeah, my so I I think that's also kind of one of the reasons why I think I like this version of Joker more than Heath Ledger. Because I mean, even with the laugh and I I think those mannerisms the wait, are you okay? I when my heart just like stopped for a quick second, I was falling back. It just jumpstart right back. Those man those mannerisms are a little are a little bit more repr ⁓ representational of the Joker that I grew up with because I think it was Jack Nicholson. that was like the main one. But then, you know, I But go ahead. Continue. Sorry. No, no, no. Continue. Go ahead. Best one, but go ahead. But I would say like my generation would say that they grew up watching that Batman animated because that series was fucking phenomenal. It's amazing. ⁓ like I can still watch it today. It it has not aged. You also didn't get any other good Batmans aside from No, George Cloney. And what was it no, it was a good one. It wasn't a good one. George Clooney, Val Kilmer, those weren't good Batman movies. No, they were. Nah, they were campy. But that's but I mean that's what Batman started out to. Nah, Batman's not campy. Batman's the dark night, right? Adam West wasn't campy. Weren't they like doing dancing with their and with the hips? That that was also hip thrusting. That was also way back. But Where it picked where it started from was Tim Burton's Batman, which wasn't very I mean, it it had a little bit of cheese to it, but it wasn't like campy. You don't think the Joker, them dancing and doing all that goofy stuff wasn't campy? No. I think it fit the story. Just wasn't campy. The one with the next one, I think it was Batman Returns not Batman Returns. ⁓ Batman Begins, maybe? No, Batman Begins was Nolan's. Maybe it was Batman Returns. The second one. Was that George Clooney? No, it wasn't George Clooney. Shit, I forgot who was in the second Batman. The one with ⁓ Penguin. Yeah, Danny DeVito. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And ⁓ Michelle Pfeiffer. Michelle Pfeiffer, Catwoman. Who was that? ⁓ who played Batman? Was it Michael Keaton it wasn't Michael Keaton again, was it? It might it might have been Keaton. I think it was Keaton. Shit, I can't even remember. But the first two I liked. But then everything after that were like Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy, and then hey Poison Ivy now. It was Keaton for the first two, right? Yeah. Hey, Poison Ivy. Poison Ivy and nah fuck that. Those those are awful movies. I Chris O'Donnell was an up and the coming actor at that time, so he was he was white hot. I think I probably would have rather had the Marlon Wayans Robin. But going back to it like that. But yeah, that's what you guys didn't get. You you that's the best that you had. Like there was no other Batman there for you. The best Batman was the anime in the series. So this one felt like it was more so connected to that. Because I think, I mean, I I would So I like I've I've seen debates and people will say, you know, who's the best joker? And I know that you said we can't do animated, but I don't I don't think you can do an animated. Regardless though, people do rank Mark Hamill, the animated Joker, as the best joker. Okay. I'm I'm not gonna deny it, but I don't I don't also I don't think you could put an animated joker in the conversation with other live action. I don't think that really meshes well. Regardless of, you know, if you the the voice acting, how he portrayed jokers, like undeniably, this is amazing. So, you know, when I see Heath Ledger, I'm like, I know people think that that was a great one, and I know people tend to love the Jackie Nicholson one, but I'm like, okay. That's the best one. Like that's the Joker that I envision. So this Arco Arthur Fleck he has, while it's it's very different because the Joker in the animated series was not this depressive, kind of sad, somber type of person, there's a little bit of characteristics and things in that that kind of comes out at times. And I believe they alluded to at the end of this one, the real joker, because when the Wains, you know, when every the city is just going corrupt and they go around. ⁓ the person who snatches the pearls in the original lore, that's the Joker. Mm-hmm. So they're So Fleck wasn't even Joker. No. So he was the inspiration for Joker. He wasn't technically the Joker. He was the inspiration, right? Because So if remember the Joker, the guy who play who becomes a Joker is the one that kills Bruce Wayne's parents, right? Supposedly. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's the one with ⁓ Nicholson, if you remember. Is that in the comics? Like I like I said, I don't know anything about the comics. So I just know the Joker from that. Is he's the one that killed the parents. So that's the Joker. Yeah. In in I'm not even gonna call it the Joker anymore. I'm just gonna call it Fleck. Fleck. Fleck. somebody else killed ⁓ killed Bruce Wayne's parents as Fleck is on the NYPD cop car Cripwalking. So he wasn't ⁓ technically in my eyes, he's not the Joker. And you learn that in the second part, I think. Which I don't know why I saw the second part after not liking the first one. But Yeah, 'cause Harley ⁓ 'cause in the I I remember in the cartoons, Harley was the therap was Joker's therapist, so that's how they got together. Not in the second one. No, no, I'm saying like the then like Yeah, that's how they end up. Yeah. Yeah, like with that being said, I didn't I didn't like think of this Joker movie as like being a part of of any storyline or any any Radicon or anything like I felt like it was like its own interpretation of like what a Joker type person could be in modern you know, in in in real life. Like going through actual situations that everyone goes through and that normal, regular, everyday person turning into a Joker, not this maniacal villain, the Joker, you know? It's like someone can become just as crazy as as a ⁓ a villainous icon. Such as a Joker. You know what mean? Yeah. So you don't you guys don't find it as like false advertising? How they advertise it as a Joker origin story? No. I think that they I think the script would have done ⁓ a little differently had Joaquin said that he wanted to be the Joker for the DCU, which he said, I don't wanna do, I don't wanna be in this this ⁓ DCU because I think at that point they were in the process of the reboot because they had the Batman, but and and I think they were actually gonna do another like separate Batman that's out that's actually in the cinematic universe. So I think he just wanted to do like one and be good with it. I think that's also what Todd Phillips had originally planned. But then they made so much money, they're like, hey, let's do this sequel. And then that's why you got the Joker 2 the way you got it. So you think that Well, do you think that it wasn't a Joker script originally? And they just kind of shoehorned it into the Joker? No, I think it was, but just looking at the career of Joaquin, he doesn't he seems like he only enjoys doing movies. I guess every now and then he'll do maybe one and then he'll take years off. And he probably understood that this is like a really big character. This is a really big franchise. So if everything goes well, they're gonna ask for me to come on and do all these movies. They had Ben Affleck and Jason Momo and all these people doing these reshoots and all these Cinematic universes and I think he like, No, I don't want to be a part of that at all. But I mean it wasn't even set in the s in the same timeline. This was set in like the seventies. Yeah. Batman the DCU is set in current times. So I if it was, I think it would always have been a one shot. I think it maybe if he said that he would have wanted to be in the DCU, I think they would have could have yeah. Updated it. I d I don't think that would have fit in current times. I don't think which part that's the whole story. I don't think that would they could have done that story in modern time. You would have had to modernize it and I don't think it would have been the same. I think it would have been even worse. Well, if they were gonna make it like his origin story ⁓ Would have liked to seen a young joker. And g going back going back to your first question, if I thought it was false advertisement. I don't think it was, but when I did see it for the first time, I expected it to be a part of the D C universe. ⁓ but I didn't I didn't like I didn't look into the film prior to watching it. I was just like, ⁓ I was told about it and I was like, ⁓ really? So we all, you know, we went to go see it. And I was a little confused at first. I was like, ⁓ this is not like I was like, this isn't like DC Universe esque. So I was like, okay. So then after, you know, watching it a few times, that's when I was like, ⁓ it's like They're just like interpreting kinda like their own thing in a way. 'Cause Like how you said, it just it wouldn't fit in the D C universe, that story. So in my D C was too goofy. It like all those movies are really goofy. So ⁓ just alone the tone wouldn't have have have mixed in with what they're current what they were currently doing at the time. Well they had a Joker, right? Was Jared Jared Letell was a Joker? Goofy. I'm just saying, they had one already, right? yeah, and that and he that take was not looked at favorably. I mean it was in a bunch of shitty movies, so I don't know. Th there's something about comic book movies I just can't I think I've only like really enjoyed like four comic book movies. Wow. I just I like I'll watch them like they're entertaining. And you know, I'm already so far into I guess Marvel that I kinda have to watch. Although I s I stopped a long time ago. I haven't watched much Marvel. ⁓ but I don't know, man. Comic book movies like so I assumed I was really gonna like this. Like it's a it kinda had that artistic slow burn kind of feel to it. And then it just to me it just never got going. It just stalled. Like I I kept wanting them to go certain places and they just like they edged you and then they backed off. So it's like motherfucker. No, no, no. You guy gotta finish. Can't can't run away. ⁓ Can't run away. I felt this movie was just one big fucking blue ball edged. That's it. Like there was no real anything to it, unfortunately. And I I think they could have made a really Different story. Like if you if you're gonna rip off ⁓ Taxi Driver and Kings of Comedy, at least make your lead as interesting as Rupert or Travis. It's it's gotta be at least close to it. And it it wasn't even close. Like they like Rupert felt dangerous because he was, you know, he wasn't. Like Travis was unpredictable, so you don't know what's gonna happen. So he was similar to the Joker, but you knew exactly what was gonna happen here. Like you knew it was building up into where it was gonna go. 'Cause we knew the story. Before You don't know this you don't know the story Joker story. But most people know kind of like the Joker in general is not like he's not someone that you gonna like, ⁓ you know, let's can you spot me? I need a I need a lift or let's go to the bar together, let's go Yeah, boxing. He's like, you know, he's Kind of he's kind of off a little bit. But from when the kids whooped his ass in the beginning, you knew where that story was gonna go. Like you get so they you started sad. You started sad. He gets his ass whooped. You know exactly how this story's gonna go. Like there's no there was no kind of shock value to anything in that story. That shit was shocking to me. You gotta pay attention. You gotta pay No, I was you gotta pick up those little details. No, I was like, ⁓ Like you did you really didn't think he was gonna kill those guys on the subway? ⁓ once once the guy gives him the gun, you know that shit's happening. And then you know and then once they start building it, you know exactly where it's gonna happen, you know exactly how it's gonna happen. Could have happened anywhere. It was in, you know, it was in well it could have, but then you feel it happening like you know it's gonna happen here. And with with taxi ⁓ taxi driver, you didn't it you didn't know when it was gonna happen. It's almost like you know. It's almost like you know cra like if you've ever been around certain type of crazy people, they know when and who to be crazy around. And it's not like he can do No, no, I'm gonna say it. What are you what are you trying say to me? That's fucking I w No, I wasn't talking to you. No, no, no. ⁓ motherfucker. ⁓ no, no, no, no, no, it wasn't. No, I'm saying that kind of crazy. No no no no no. I the the the way You psychotic motherfucker. No, I think of that I think about this when I'm on the subway sometimes you see like crazy people or people who are like mentally who come off as like mentally unstable, it's like they know who to mess with, but there's certain people they don't go to. That's what I'm thinking about. That's what I'm thinking about with him. Yeah, just anybody, you know when you see those videos online of people picking on people, they know who to pick on, they know not to to pick on. And when they pick on the wrong person, you see how those videos go. Yeah, he saw those guys in the suit, he's like, they're not about that life. But it's it Yeah, I I I would have left the Joker alone. Personally. I don't know, man. 'Cause like there's a 'cause for me it's kind of in the middle. Like Like, okay, he's probably gonna shoot them right about now. You know, but then it happens like five minutes later and I'm like, ⁓ okay. So it's It's like a little bit of both. I wasn't shocked at anything either. but I guess, you know, I don't think it was really meant to shock. And it was more to just say like damn you know, just constantly empathizing, even after killing those two guys, you know. Some people were like, Yeah, you know, but I feel bad. So I don't think it was like really meant to like shock. ⁓ thing was more of to just like show you as much trauma that he's constantly going through as possible. And it's just like ⁓ more empathizing the entire film. That that was kind of my problem with it too. He boxed him up. It's just you You know, how much empathy how much empathy does somebody have? There's gotta be a fucking limit. No, but sometimes someone just needs a hug and someone says, All right, I love you. Get a fucking I hear you. It's not I see you. But he didn't get he never got that. He never got that. He could have got that. No, he couldn't have. He was environment. He was working a job. He was working a job, right? Yes. In the 70s in New York City. You go right to 42nd Street, five bucks, you get yourself a hug. That that's that's first of all, that's it's a hug. That's that's none of my business. That's none of my business what you do outside of work, number one. That's a hug. That's a hug. But even that, like if you're even talking about some type of like release, then it's like it, you know, the dopamine is hit, so you have like a temporary high, and then that shit is also. leveled out with like a low. Sometimes you go even lower than what you were before. And that's an effect of being on medication, which he was on. And then when he was off his medication. No, he was on it for a while. And then when he got taken and that's when shit his shit hit the fan. Yeah. By a hug. And I feel like I feel like the film also you know, brings that into perspective too, like prescription just shoving prescription pills you know, just chugging prescription pills down is not gonna do the job. It it never works out good. You know, like like s it it this movie's also kinda like showing you the root problem to like all of these like situations that people are being medicated for. When it's like it might not work, man. Like you might need serious love and care. And with that, that allows your subconscious to kind of change. It allows it to see a different side of the world. Because subconsciously he's screwed up. He's done up. Screw his subconscious he's deaf. Misery, ⁓ just no peace ever in his life. Nothing ever good happened. Once he found out, ⁓ all the stuff that like he was adopted, ⁓ like he doesn't know who his real parents were. He was like, dude, what like what? So like his subconscious knows nothing good of this world. And I feel like People that are actually going through that, they just they need to see that other side and need to see behaviors that follow with living within that other side. And little by little framing their mind to to make that shift. So I feel like that this movie kinda talks about that. You know, it it it it tal it it talks about it kinda like Like addressing that elephant in the room. Okay. He's still gonna go crazy if you just shove pills down his throat. So now do you think a hug would have worked for him? I think it could have. I think that was his I think that would have been step number one. Well, I mean I mean mentally, yeah, Pussy, right? Let me answer your question contextually. One simple hug, no. But what that one hug will do is it'll be a catalyst. Depending on who it is, also. If it was Ozzy. You know? But I mean, in his head, he was already with her, right? Yeah. So if he was that if he was that fucked up, he believed that to be reality. It doesn't that count as a hug? Nah. Why not? If he's that fucked up, he believes that part of his life is real. Why is that not a hug? 'Cause she didn't verbalize it. So maybe his number one of his five lug languages is communication. So we didn't know that. You know, we didn't get through any of that stuff. Do you have the goalposts on like a fucking a chain to just keep pushing it? You just keep pulling the goalposts. Just talk to me. See, I d I don't know. I I I don't think a hug would have fixed him. Nah, not not one simple hug. It would take a person that's patient enough to like deal with that. He needed to be an arkham through it. Love him through it. Love him through the pain. He needed to be an Arkham. He would he would he would have found his people in Arkham like he did in part two. He just needed to be around the right group of people and he wasn't putting himself in the right group of people. I say murderers, murderers and drug dealers, whatever. If those are your people, you'll find what you need with those people. Organized crime. Like I said, that there's somebody and there's a group of people for everybody. Doesn't matter. That's my that's that that's my people. It's a family. Yeah, one you can't get out of. Still a family. This is my murderous family right here. Yeah. Blood isn't blood out. But is it not a family? Yeah, that is like I wouldn't I I wouldn't know. No, no, no, no, no, no. I wouldn't know. Stop at your goalpost moving. That's a family. That's a twit that's a twisted form of solace. But yes. Why do you think people join gangs? Protection? Yeah. Because they don't have a home. Sense of belonging. Right. Well I wouldn't know about that either. They're finding their people. So it's it's it's all under one tree. There is some someone in a group of people out there for everybody. You just need to work at finding it. You're saying he needed he need hop on Tinder real quick? Whatever. Arthur needed to get jumped in, man. He got jumped in and then he ran away and cried. They whooped his ass in the beginning. He could have could have joined them. Instead he's on the bus crying. So first of all, we're not gonna make fun of anyone crying because it's healthy. It releases So let's get that out. ⁓ you know, whatever that was back then. That's that's that's a different type of release. That's a different type of release. What whatever works. I probably would have cried after either way. I think Arthur needed some accountability in his life. He needed to try a little harder and find the right people. He needed to put his mother in a home. Damn. That's it. He would have been he would have been fine. It's kinda gray though, 'cause it's like his brain has been screwed since birth, so like he doesn't have like a normal sense of accountability or like like how we would normally think of these things. Like it's just it's just not in his head. So every time he runs into trouble, he gives somebody a card saying, I have a condition. Wouldn't that be a form of accountability he's taking? So he knows how to take accountability. He just chooses when to do it. He tried to do that on the subway, and look what happened. They said Well, you know. And he had to take measures into his own hands. He had to put them in a box. That's a form of accountability. Form of accountability. Hey, he boxed them up. Fuck around, found out. That's it. What yeah. I'm I'm fucking around, but I mean I'm just trying to combat all your points. But technically, right, that's what he's doing. He's when he gives a card and saying like when he's you know affecting that little girl on the bus, he gives the mom a card saying I have a condition, blah blah blah. That's a version of accountability. She was nice with the mom that was kind of He could also be doing that defensively to not get made fun of. Like is a defense mechanism kind of thing? Like before you start laughing at me and making fun of me, I have a condition. Yeah. You know? So maybe he's just trying to address that elephant in the room. Like, why the fuck is he laughing? Could be. You know? You think, yo, what's wrong with what's wrong with him? He's like, I already told you. I have a c I you see the card in your hand. I gave it to you. You're still laughing at me. Now I gotta shoot you. All right. So I want I wanna kinda do something new with each film. I wanna get a hot take from everybody. Could be a positive hot take, could be a negative hot take. Just something that's kind of an out of the ordinary take on the Joker. So Brandon's extremely positive. Give me a give me a negative hot take for the film. ⁓ ⁓ fuck. I mean an would it be a negative take to say that this is proven that Joaquin Phoenix could not make a bad moon movie? That's definitely a hot take. Let's go with that. He's already definitely a hot take. He's like, what? Say excuse me? He said, what'd you say? So I'll I'll counter that and say wait, first of all. Pull what what's his ⁓ I don't I don't watch a lot of walking. Her is fucking awful. What? No, it's not. Awful. Awful. ⁓ walk the line. Walk the line. That was decent. I'm okay. I'm okay with walking line. I think he was probably the worst part of Gladiator. Wow. Now you now you're just hating. No, you not an intimidating villain whatsoever. What else does he have? We own the night was medium. Eddington? Eddington. Trash. Absolute fucking trash. Okay. This this this I'm not allowed to say trash, right? That was the agreement on the podcast. I'm sorry. ⁓ I did not like Eddington whatsoever. I think it was not a good film. Not a personal ⁓ I'm trying to be politically correct. Yeah, not a personal favorite of mine. Napoleon? That was trash. I'm sorry. Like that No. Alright, we're done now. No done here. No. Napoleon. So w walk the line. ⁓ But see, the Joker was like, I've seen him play Joker four times before he played Joker. He plays that same defeated character like over and over again. And that's kind of his life though. If you kind of like have read into like his history and shit, like his personal life is kind of like also like fucked up. So it's easy for him probably to relate to those characters. You gotta act, right? That's your job. And he won an Oscar for this one. He won an Oscar for this film. So everyone won a Joker? Yeah. He did w he won an Oscar for Joker. Best actor. So you're on the other side, Pat. Who who else the world agrees with me, Pat? Who else was nominated? I think it was the dance on the steps in the Bronx. Nah, that that definitely had to be the hype. That That definitely that definitely was the hype. That there's no way unless it was a shit year for acting performances, I don't see that as a as a best acting performance. Let's see. So he defeated Adam Driver. For what? Marriage Story, Leonardo DiCapri for Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Antonio Bandaras in Pl Pain and Glory and Johnson. Well D D It was Joaquin. Who who else was there? And then the last one was Jonathan Price and the two popes. That was a pretty weak ⁓ although Antonio Benderas was really good in that film. ⁓ he dog walked, he dog walked all of them. Dog walked that competition. What was the other what was the other competition in there? Danced on him. Adam Driver, ⁓ for Marriage Story, Leonardo for Scar Scarlett Johansson ate his lunch for that fucking movie. I don't like Adam Driver to begin with. I don't like him either. ⁓ Antonio Benderis and Jonathan Price. So maybe you I guess you could have said Leonardo, but I mean, you know. Nah I Not in that movie. ⁓ I mean I didn't I didn't I liked it was okay. I I don't think that was his ⁓ one of his better roles. I think Brad Pitt was better than him in that movie. ⁓ fuck, I guess so. It's just a weak year. He went off a weak year. He any year he would have won. No. But get your take. No, let Justin go. I had a hot take the whole fucking episode, so obviously I'm on the wrong side of everybody's opinion of the Joker, so dude is dude's hate a hater. Hot take. Nah, if I don't like something, I don't like it strongly. Doesn't mean hate. I stated my reasons why I don't like it. There's no there was no hate involved. I like Todd Phillips. I just didn't like this movie. Yeah, we'll we'll get to that later. Hot take, ⁓ well, I mean Well technically people consider this Todd's best film. I don't consider this Todd's best film. Yeah, I I agree. I know Brandon strongly disagrees. I tried to start watching Hangover and I had to turn that shit off. Like what what is this like ⁓ what is this bullshit past got me watching? There's another one that was really good. ⁓ War Dogs. I really, really like it's I like I liked War Dogs. I even though I don't like again, I don't like Jonah Hill, but War Dogs was really good. Like when Jonah Hill kinda like when he got when he got played, when he got robbed from buying ⁓ from buying like weed or something And when he you know when he pulled out the the rifle out the trunk and just started like shooting him up I was I was like I was like that's so dumb. But like that's so funny. Like I don't know, it I personally like I would watch War Dogs. I would watch War Dogs over Joker. I would say the newer Well, we know you. We know you, Pat, but But what no Wardogs was actually one of my favorite scenes from I mean from Jonah Hill was in that movie where they're ⁓ where they find out they won the ⁓ the government bid and Jonah Hill's in there. And they were like, You ⁓ you came in much lower than your competition, whatever. So that ⁓ the government was like, ⁓ you came in, you know, millions under your competition. So Jonah Hill, you know, he's you start to see him like building like fuck, we could have made more money. And then so he's like, you know, just from my knowledge, how how far under from my competition? And the government's like, you came in f fift I think it was like fifty two million less than the competition. So I don't know if you know about government bids. Like you have to kind of they usually go with the lowest bidder. So you basically they send you a ⁓ Like an about the job kind of well, for video, they send you like an about the job kind of ⁓ kind of sheet. And you basically put your package together, tell them how much it's gonna cost for, you know, the whole project, and you submit it. And they usually go with like the lowest one. So you know if like, you know, you can do you know, audio and video yourself, you're not gonna bring on an audio guy. So you kind of you know, you you kind of find a way to cut corners. So what they did was they're trying to get a d government defense contract. And they gave it $52 million less than their than the competitor. So the government went with them. It's it's a crazy story. I think it's like based on a true story also. But ⁓ just the way that was acted from Jonah Hill, I was like, ⁓ you know, maybe I'll like and then I saw him in another movie. I was like, nah, I can't. I just don't I just something about him like I can't get into. But that was like one of my favorites. Just the way he acted it was one of my favorites. parts for him. Was this was this super bad that ruined Jonah Hill for you? No, I think it was ⁓ Shit, I don't even remember. One of those Judd Apatal movies. not forty year old Virgin. Not forty year old Virgin. ⁓ Shit. Maybe knocked up? I think it might have been knocked up. I don't know. That and then he did a movie with Eddie Murphy recently. That one I didn't see. With I think it was Eddie Murphy. It was ⁓ I I felt bad for Eddie Murphy. It was that bad. I don't know. My my hot take's not really a hot take. I think I said it recently or a few minutes ago was that if it was called fleck, it would probably get like a seven instead of the five I'm gonna give it. I I don't see it as a joker story. I think it being a joker story really hurt it instead of helped it. And I think it was a really bad ripoff of Taxi Driver and Kings of Comedy. You shaking your head. You probably you you haven't seen either one of those. That's on the list. ⁓ well I'm sure they're I'm sure they're both gonna be on the they gotta be on the 250. Okay. If Joker's on the 250, the one that inspired them has to be on there. Should be on. Is that our segue into the scores cards? ⁓ No, not yet. So Justin, you didn't go into the movie seeing it. You didn't watch a trailer. You didn't really listen to any of the hype. You just went and somebody told you and you went and watched it? Yeah. The only thing I did see though is ⁓ like an Instagram clip of like someone, you know, who was actually living there and like watching, you know, the production work. They kind of saw the Joker. It could have been someone on in the production crew too doing it to kinda like do that type of marketing. but I don't know if it was someone in production or if it was someone who really just like saw the production working. But that's kinda like That was kinda like how I found out. I was like, ⁓ that's pretty cool, like they're gonna make a new Joker movie. And and I was curious too, you know, especially after Heath Ledger's performance. I personally really like Heath Ledger though. ⁓ even like back to Lords of Dogtown, like he was good he was really good in that movie. But ⁓ anyways s so of not knowing anything, going into it, and then after watching it and then hearing all the hype about it, did it live up to the hype for you? ⁓ not as much as it's hyped up to be no. But I do also think it was really good. But I just don't think it was like like this is it. This is the Joker. This is him. You know, like I I think that that was me personally I feel like that's still with with Heath. So better or worse on second watch? Better. I will say better because I noticed ⁓ the cinematography more. I noticed I started paying attention to those things rather than just turning off my brain and watching the movie. ⁓ so when I was seeing like the lighting and and I was seeing like camera angles and movements and I was like I was like I was like this this is good. Like kudos to the to the camera department, to the lighting department, like art department. Kudos to them, dude. ⁓ huge kudos to them. ⁓ so I noticed stuff like that. but as terms of like the acting, I wouldn't I'd say after the second watch, it didn't get worse, but it got mundane. Okay. It got a little mundane because after that second watch there's like no more not as much substance to like dig deeper for. I gotcha. In my dip No no no, I I understand. ⁓ I don't know if it can get better from your scores on the second watch or third watch or fourth watch or fifth watch or however many fucking times you watch this movie. How many times you watch this movie? I don't know, maybe like twelve. God damn. So from the first watch to the twelfth watch, did it dip a little bit? Fuck no. Take that bullshit somewhere else. So I guess I will say that on second watch it got a look a tiny bit better. I I think also because I was so angry watching it in the theater. ⁓ I was so I I would have walked out. Like I probably would have walked out. ⁓ but I I was so angry. And then on the second watch I actually sat got was able to sit down and like watch all the watch, pay attention and like pick up on the little things. So it went from like a five to a six for me. If it was a f if it was called fleck, it would get a seven point five. I I would have allowed all that nonsense. But for the Joker, no, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna let that fly. Anyway, you guys can go. ⁓ the only way to check out our scores are go to the Instagram, check out the ⁓ the Joker poster, check out our scores. You can make fun of Brandon's scorecard because it's fucking obscene. God damn, it's so obscene. Ball up top. ⁓ absolutely not. ⁓ my Brandon's gonna fight in the comments, don't worry. ⁓ shit. ⁓ he's definitely gonna fight in the comments. He got some rebuttals. But he's got he's got the talk to text ready to go. He's he's everyone's gonna agree with me, so there's there's not gonna be any fighting. Nobody's gonna agree with you. Well, we'll see. After the joke or two, that's no Hasbug now the Oscars is on my side, so think about remember that. Well all I know is I'm gonna start making some fake accounts. Just gonna be like this motherfucker. ⁓ As someone you know I'm not on an IG to begin with, so they're gonna be fighting with themselves. You'll be all right. All right, Revisitation Rights Podcast. I'm Pat. Brandon. Justin. And we're doing a quick out.