Latest / Your Hope-Filled Perspective with Dr. Michelle Bengtson podcast / How to Get to the Root of Hidden Addiction and Break Free

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How to Get to the Root of Hidden Addiction and Break Free · Your Hope-Filled Perspective with Dr. Michelle Bengtson podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Life Audio.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Today's episode is a powerful one. We're joined by John Seidel,
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: author and speaker, as he courageously shares his personal journey
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: detailed in his latest book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic Friends.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: It's a raw, honest and redemptive conversation about how a
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: man of faith found himself battling addiction, the shame that
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: came with it, and what.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: It took to break free.
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  Speaker 2: If you or someone you love have ever struggled with
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: hidden pain, addiction, or the pressure to keep up appearances,
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  Speaker 2: this conversation is for you. John's story is a testimony
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: to the power of grace, truth, and freedom found in Christ.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Welcome to your hope filled perspective with doctor Michelle bankson
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: where our goal is to restore hope, renew minds, and
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: empower listeners to live in your God given identity. I'm
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: delighted you've chosen to spend a few minutes of your
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: week with us. Today We're going to be talking about
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: how to break free from hidden addictions. We'll dive in
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: with this honest and vulnerable conversation right after a brief
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: word from our sponsor. The Christian community loves stories of salvation,
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: but often struggles with stories of sanctification, especially messy sanctification.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Today's guest, John Seidel, is breaking the stigma with a
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: radically vulnerable work that's not only for those struggling with
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: secret sins, but also for every person on a journey
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: to overcome nagging issues, which really is all of us.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: In this episode of Your Hope Filled Perspective, we're going
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  Speaker 2: to delve into one man's story about the raw and
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: messy details of his secret battle with addiction and how
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: to break free from hidden addictions. John Seidel has been
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: telling stories his whole life.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: In fact, he's.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Written over ten thousand of them. First, after helping start
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: a successful news website and and he was editor in
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: chief of the popular nonprofit I Am Second. Now he's
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: the author of a new book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic,
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  Speaker 2: a radically vulnerable story of being the Christian who became
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: an alcoholic and his climb out of addiction and how
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: others can break free from life's entanglements. He currently runs
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  Speaker 2: the popular daily devotional website, The Veritas Daily, where he
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: writes on faith, culture, and addiction, while also completing his
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: master's degree in theological studies from Southwestern Seminary. He's originally
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  Speaker 2: from Wisconsin. He lives in my neighborhood of Frisco, Texas
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: with his wife, Brett, and their children. So I'm excited
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: to welcome to the program, John Zeidel.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Welcome John Michelle.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: Can I just like bring you around as I travel?
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: I mean that's like a I'm like, I want to
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  Speaker 3: know that guy. Who's that guy? That's great? Love that yeah,
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: great introduction. I I forget about some of those things,
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: some of it intentionally, right, there's some things like I
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: just want to lead you that in the past now.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: But thank you. I'm so excited to be here, John.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: What I have found in over thirty years as a neuropsychologist,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: in the past seven years on the podcast is that
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: often our stories or our ministries result from our own hurts,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: our own.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Trials, or our needs.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: So how is this true for you with respect to
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic?
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  Speaker 3: Oh? Boy, I mean yeah, you talk about trials. I
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  Speaker 3: think I wrote a book in twenty twenty one on
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  Speaker 3: faith and mental health, and I think up until when
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: I wrote that book, I said, I've gone through the toughest,
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: toughest part of my life. And what I didn't realize
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: is that that was just that was just the appetizer.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: And yet we prayed before we started this episode, and
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  Speaker 3: you said something that I love to say, and I
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  Speaker 3: don't think that's a coincidence, but that I've learned uses
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: these issues, these struggles for our good and his glory.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: I'm a tattoo guy. I love my tattoos. And the
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: next one I'm going to get is Roman numerals, and
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: it's going to be twelve seven through ten, because I'm
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: not sure if you can have a life verse for
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  Speaker 3: your whole life, right, I'm kind of like, but in
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: this season, my life verse is Second Corinthians twelve seven
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  Speaker 3: through ten, and that's that's where Paul talks about the
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  Speaker 3: thorn in his flesh and how the power of God
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  Speaker 3: has made perfect in his weakness. And that's what I've
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  Speaker 3: come to learn and understand is that these trials, which
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: by the way, news Flash like, I went through a
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  Speaker 3: tough period. Then I went through what I would say
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  Speaker 3: the toughest period in my life is and now I'm
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  Speaker 3: coming out of even even in light of recovery, even
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  Speaker 3: in light of finding sobriety, even in light of crawling
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  Speaker 3: back to Jesus like, and we'll talk about this like,
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  Speaker 3: it wasn't roses and butterflies. This I stopped drinking. And
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  Speaker 3: I'm not the first one to say this. Alcohol wasn't
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  Speaker 3: my problem. Alcohol was the solution to my problems. A
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  Speaker 3: bad solution, but an easy one, a quick one. Right.
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  Speaker 3: So now you took away my solution, and now I
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  Speaker 3: had to deal with all the crud and the crap
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  Speaker 3: and that everything I was using it to numb or
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: or escape from. And so now I'm like, I feel
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  Speaker 3: like my wife and I are just getting out of
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  Speaker 3: what I would now say is the hardest period of
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  Speaker 3: our life. And yet God it's I can say this,
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  Speaker 3: It has been faithful.
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  Speaker 2: That's such an important message when we can get to
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  Speaker 2: the point that we can look back on trials and recognize, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: they were hard and in our own strength, we couldn't
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: have gotten through them. But God was faithful, and now
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  Speaker 2: He's using the horrible times in your life for good.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: But I want to take our listeners to the point
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  Speaker 2: where you talk about what was your rock bottom or
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: how did you come to the end of yourself?
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  Speaker 1: What did that look like?
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  Speaker 3: John? Yeah, one thing I like to say before I
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  Speaker 3: get to this point or before I tell this story,
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: and I make this clear in the book as well,
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  Speaker 3: is I did have a rock bottom moment, and there's
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  Speaker 3: a lot of people that do. And I know in
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: your work, I'm sure you've heard a lot of those stories.
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  Speaker 3: I've had my own. Yeah, right, But what I want
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  Speaker 3: to encourage people is that you don't have to have
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: a rock bottle moment in order to reevaluate your relationship
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  Speaker 3: with alcohol or anything else, food, whatever, right, exercise, because
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  Speaker 3: I think for so long and part of what kept
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: me in in the state I was in is I
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  Speaker 3: played the comparison game. Well, I'm not doing that. I
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  Speaker 3: don't look like that. I'm I'm not leaving home and
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  Speaker 3: not coming back. Right. I wasn't a lone drinker. I
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: wasn't a go out and party drinker like no. I
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: just wanted to be home. Give me a football, give
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: me a football Saturday and in a case of beer,
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: and I'd be great. Never leave the house, be around
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: for the kids, be there. So I just want to
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: tell people, like, you're gonna hear this story, and I
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: hope some people see themselves in it. But if you don't,
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: don't think, well, my I'm good because, as I say,
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  Speaker 3: anything that is misordered is disordered, especially for Christians, right,
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  Speaker 3: So it's not a it's not about quantity necessarily. That
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  Speaker 3: can be a factor, for sure, But if you anything
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  Speaker 3: that you put on the throne of your life, your kids,
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  Speaker 3: your husband, your wife, your job, anything that occupies a
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  Speaker 3: place in your life that is misordered is disordered. So
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: that said, I talked about publishing a book in twenty
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  Speaker 3: twenty one on faith in mental health, and I had
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  Speaker 3: a friend who called me right as the book was
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: coming out and he said, Johnny, you need to be
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  Speaker 3: careful and I said, okay. He said, you're going to
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  Speaker 3: publish your book and you're going to do all the press,
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: and that's going to all end, and you're going to
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: feel likely you'll feel a little empty for the last
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: two years, especially when you go the traditional publishing route,
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: which I have. The process is long, right, it's long.
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  Speaker 3: So two years is very normal from when you sign
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: the contract and start writing to when the book comes out.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: And I thought, I'm right, I'm writing a book on
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: faith and mental health, you know what I mean? Like
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: I'm good, Like thanks, thanks, but I'll be fine and
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: sure enough about a month, month and a half after
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: the book comes out, I just I realized I had
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: all these unexposed expectations. And so, yeah, the book did well,
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  Speaker 3: and it was a top one hundred book on all
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: of Amazon and bestseller on these lists, but they didn't
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: make the New York Times bestseller list, you know, like, yeah,
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: Publishers Weekly did a review, but Wall Street Journal didn't.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: And I just the enemy took that and just started
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: feeding lies to me. Lies by the way that we're
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: based on traumas that went back thirty years, you know,
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: about not being enough, about not being seen, about being abandoned,
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: about what it looks like to be safe. And you're
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: like all that from a book. I'm like, yeah, the
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  Speaker 3: devil's crafty.
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  Speaker 1: You are preaching to the choir.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it.
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  Speaker 2: As a traditionally published author, I resonate with all that
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  Speaker 2: you're saying. And he is very crafty, and he knows
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  Speaker 2: where our weakness is.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, He's not going to hit you where you're strong, right,
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  Speaker 3: you know. And so I started sliding into the guy
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: who wrote the book on faith and mental health and
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: gave people the tools and all that stuff. Started sliding
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: back into a depression. And then on top of that,
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: two weeks before Christmas. I had started my own business
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: at this point, using just my background in digital media
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: and news and writing to do consulting, and I had
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: a massive client and I was making the most money
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: of my life. They were they were paying for the
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: majority of my time I was there. They're pretty much
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: my only client. And two weeks before Christmas, they came
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: to me and said, hey, we're kind of, you know, reevaluating,
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: things going to go in a different direction. And so
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: you know, you're a contractor, and so your contact's going
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: to be done at the end of the year. And
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: you know, anyone who's in you don't have to be
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: in consulting or contract work to know that two weeks
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: before Christmas trying to find new clients is just like, mean,
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: good luck, right, and and so that hit me really hard.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: Fast forward to the spring I had I had another
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: client that I kind of then built up and then
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: they pulled out. And then my son starts limping around
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: four years old at the time, and we take him
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: to the doctrine. We find out and he's got a
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: tumor in his shin, and we do find out by
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: the grace of God that that is benign. But that
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: whole process just created so much anxiety and pain and questions.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: And then you fast forward, you know you're going to
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: the fall of twenty twenty two. I had a really,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: really dear friend at the time who he came down
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: with a severe bout of depression, and then we're just
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: kind of this like depression tornado all throughout that. I
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: knew the truth, I knew what I should do. I
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: had the skills, I had the knowledge, and yet and yet,
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: like you said, the Devil's crafty, I had always had
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: an up and down relationship with alcohol. I grew up
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: in Wisconsin, which is just like beer trailers at church picnics,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: which is not an exaggeration, and so there, I grew
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: up in a culture of drinking, and I had gone
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: through bouts of heavy drinking at times. But when all
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: of this hit, I just turned to easy solution. It's
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: hard to go on a three mile run when your
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: mental health is suffering. It's hard to commit to weekly
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: therapy sessions. It's more expensive, right, It's cheaper to go
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: get a nineteen dollars bottle of mid level bourbon and
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: sitting in front of the TV and watch something fun
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: or funny or a game and just kind of get
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: lost and again, and I justified all this, you know,
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: used all just I'm not going out, I'm not cheating
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: on my wife. I'm not like all this stuff. And slowly,
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: from the fall of twenty twenty one till the spring
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: of twenty twenty three, one bourbon to night turned into two,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: turned into four, turned into five, and then the pumpkin
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: beers are out. It's fall, and man, those are great,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: and then you start adding those, and before you know it,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: you're cutting back on family activities. Your wife wants to
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: go to the movies, but you're already three bourbons deep
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: on a Saturday afternoon because you started watching the game
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: at eleven. So you're making up excuses because you know
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: you can't drive drunk, so well, you know, I'm just
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: not feeling well, you know, or whatever it is. And
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: that just became my life until maybe twenty twenty three.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: My wife and I were on an anniversary trip. Our
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: anniversaries around Memorial Day, and so we always try to
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: play kind of like a fun just us because we
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: have a built in vacation, and we decided months earlier
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: we were going to go to Miami, and I had
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: never been, and so my wife gets us, finds us
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: a great deal on a hotel, like right down on
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: South Beach, and so two weeks before this and this
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: is just the life of an addict. Right two weeks
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: before this, I was really convicted, and I said, I'm
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: going to stop drinking. And so I stopped drinking. Two
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  Speaker 3: weeks later, it's time for the trip, and I go, well,
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: I stopped for two weeks. Someone who stops for two
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: weeks doesn't have a problem. They're not really enslaved to it.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: I didn't get the sheakes like, I can do it.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: I'm good. I'll just treat myself. I'll be I'll be
• 13:04
  Speaker 3: moderate about it. And so we can go to we
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: go to Miami. I'm drinking a little bit, and there's
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: one night in particular where my wife says, you know,
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: I just kind of want a night in. She's a reader.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: She says, I just kind of want to like relax
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: on the balcony and read. She's like, you can do whatever.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: And again, I'm not a go out drinker. And I said, well,
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to go down to the hotel bar.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: I'll have some appetizers. I'll have a couple of beers.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: And you know, there was like NBA playoffs and hockey
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: playoffs on, like this is perfect. And as I'm leaving
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: the hotel room, she looks at me and she says,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: don't get drunk. Promise me you won't get drunk. See
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: because by this time, you know, she didn't know the
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: depths of it. And I was hiding aspect, but it
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: was bleeding over, and I said, I'm not going to
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: just very dismissively, I'm not going to get drunk. It's fine.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: And and Michelle, I had every intention not to get drunk.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: I can say that honestly. So I go down to
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: the bar and pretty quickly, I mean one gen martini
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: turns into I don't know, And by twelve one in
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  Speaker 3: the morning, I'm paying a triple digit bar tab and
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I am drunk. I cannot go back up
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: to the room. And no matter what they tell you,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: the sciences is that the only thing that can sort
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: you up is time. You can eat all the bread
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: you want, but it's time. And so I thought, drunk
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: John has this great idea. Well, I'm gonna just walk
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: down to the beach. I'm just gonna sit on the
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: beach and I'm just gonna wait until I'm more sober,
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: and then I'll go back into the room. I don't
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: know how long is this gonna take. Maybe I'll watch
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: the sunder, I don't know. But so I stumble down
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: to the beach and pretty quickly I have to go
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: to the bathroom. And what people may not realize about
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: South Beach, Miami on one in the morning, twelve one
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: in the morning, there's a lot more people down there
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: than you think, doing a lot more things than you
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: would think. There's funky smells, and there's just all kinds
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: of stuff. And so I'm like, well, I can't I
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: can't make it back to the hotel. What am I
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: gonna do? And so I look in front of me
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: is the world's biggest toilet bowl, and I think, okay,
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: I'll just go into the ocean, go to the bathroom,
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: and come out. So, with all my clothes on, I
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: didn't have trunks on, fully dressed, I wade into the ocean.
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: I'm neck deep in water and I start going to
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: the bathroom and it comes out of both ends and
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: I just have this moment of clarity of what has
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: your life become like you? Truly, John set out not
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: to get drunk, and I did. And this is what
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: happens when you set out not to get drunk. You're
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: waiting in your own feces alone in the morning, neck
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: deep in water, and and I just like bald, and
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: so I got out, dried off. You know, I don't
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: know how long I was there. I go back to
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: the hotel and the next day, my wife, you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: I'm hungover. I meet her down by the beach and
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: she asked me, She goes, did you get drunk last night?
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And so quickly and so easily, I said, no, I
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: didn't get drunk last night. Throughout the day, she asked
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: me two more times. I called my Peter moment. Three times.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: I was asked three times. I denied it. But yet
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: it is just eating me up all day. So we
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: go to dinner, we have reservations. We go to this place,
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: we order, and I just I'm like, I gotta tell her,
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: and so like, even before the food came out, I
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: sit there and I say, hey, babe, I gotta tell
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: you something. I said, you know, I did get drunk
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: last night, And pretty quick, so she she breaks down
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: and she's like, you know, I knew you got drunk
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: last night. I just wanted you to say it, and
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to see if you lie to me.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: She goes, did it so easily? She goes, do you
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: know what that does to a woman? Especially like if
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: you can lie that well? Like what else if I
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: were to ask you are you lying about? You know?
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: And it just I mean, we paid for our food
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: pretty quickly, and we just started walking and we actually
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: ended up down at the beach close to where I
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: was the night before. And by this time, I'm making
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: all the promises right, I'm never going to drink it again.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: I know I need help. I'm gonna get it, like
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: I don't know why I do this all the stuff.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: And we're sitting there and she looks at me and
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: she goes, John, I don't want you to never drink again, Like,
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: I don't care if you ever drink again. That's not
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: my goal. What you need to do is you need
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: to get to the root of why you're drinking. Wise woman,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: And I said in my head, I didn't say this
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: out loud, but I'm like, can we just go back
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: to the part where I don't drink, like that'd be easier.
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: You know, yes it would, because she's like, you have
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: things that happened to you, You have traumas in your past,
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: you have issues you've never dealt with, you have words
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: that have been said to you that you've never fleshed out.
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: And so if you stop drinking and seriously never drink again,
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: it's just going to be something else unless you get
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: to the heart of the problem. And so we had
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: started talking about that, and that night I literally pull
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: up my phone. There's a Christian trauma therapist that I
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: had been researching. I type in the form to get
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: an appointment, I send it, I show it to my
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: wife and that started. So that that was the rock
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: bottom moment. And then that started just a year straight
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: of counseling every week and therapy to get at the
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: root of why I was drinking.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Wow, but that is so important for people to hear,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: because the drinking was a symptom of something else going on.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: You have to get to the route, John, And one
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: of your chapters you explain how you view that term
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: alcoholism isn't really the best term to use anymore, and
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: that the definition has changed, and yet you use it.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: In the book's title, you.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: Explain how the definition has changed and why even you
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: still use it sometimes.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I know there's some people who you know and
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: you go to meetings and in the in the community,
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: and some people are like I was at a church
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: last night at a meeting. It's like some people are saying,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: I'm John, an alcoholic. I'm John, and I'm a recovered alcoholic.
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: I'm John and number recovering alcoholic. Yeah, And it's just
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: all these things right, and it's it's funny because I
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: think part of kept me in bondage for so long
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: is I had an idea of what the definition of
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: alcoholic is. And I think a lot of people have
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: that same definition because it's a definition that's fed to
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: us through stereotypes and Hollywood and whatnot. And we think
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: alcoholic is someone who can't control their drinking to a
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: detrimental effect. And that detrimental effect we generally look at
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: and say, Okay, that's the guy that orgal, who can't
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: keep a job, who is underneath the bridge, who has emptied,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: you know, so much money, who can't go to church
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: without a bottle of the mini wines before going in
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: and certainly those people are alcoholics. But alcoholics, like I
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: said earlier, is really when you have prioritized alcohol to
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: the point where it is a misordered you know, aspect
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: of your life that then becomes disordered. And so that's
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: not just me, right. Twenty thirteen, as you're very familiar with,
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: there's a book called the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistic Manual,
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: And this is where you go. I mean, it's got
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: the diagnostic criteria, it's got you know, everything. And in
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: twenty thirteen, there's been five versions of the DSM since
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: like nineteen thirty something, right, So the book isn't updated often.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: It takes a lot to update it. And in twenty thirteen, though,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: they made a massive change to the section on alcoholism.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: And the change was kind of twofold. A they don't
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: call it alcoholism anymore. It's called alcohol use disorder. And
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: two it's now diagnosed on a spectrum. So where before
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: there was hey answer these five questions. If you get
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: a majority right, you're an alcohol abuser. If you get
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: a majority right of these questions, you're you're basically you're
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: an addict, right. And so what they realized though is
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: a those questions weren't exhaustive, and there was a lot
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: of people getting left through the cracks. There was a
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: lot of people that could say, well, I'm not doing this,
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: and yet alcohol was controlling their lives and ruining their
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: lives and the lives of those around them. So they
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: changed the questions and now you only have to answer
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: two of the eleven questions to be on the spectrum
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: right now. Where you are on that spectrum. The guy
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: and or the gal that's underneath the bridge, yeah, they're
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: way on the right on the spectrum. But me, John,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: I'm you know, I'm on the spectrum as well. And
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: by the way, I was on the spectrum a lot
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: earlier than I thought I was right. And so here's
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: the thing, and I to get to that second part
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: of your question. I use the term alcoholic, but I
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: now know know that it has all the nuance of
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: being on the spectrum right. But two things. One, Confessions
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: of a Christian with Alcohol Use Disorder is not a
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: catchy title, you know, doesn't really stand out. And second
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: is like I want to in ascent educate people, and
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: so people who pick up the Book of Curiosity or
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: want to understand I think I use that it's literally
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: it's technically the second chapter of the book, but the
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: first chapter of the book is really short. It's the
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: first time I ever got drunk, and so really it's
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: kind of the first main chapter of the book is
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: let's understand what this is. And now now that you understand,
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: you can stop playing the comparison game. You can stop saying, oh, well,
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: I'm not doing this, this isn't happening, so I'm not
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: an alcoholic. Well, guess what, You're on the spectrum, right
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: if you if you're doing even if you're doing these things,
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: you're on the spectrum. And i'd someone say to me once, Oh,
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: you're just trying to tell everyone they're alcoholics, and I'm like, no,
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: I'm not. I have no vested interest in you being
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: an alcoholic or being on the alcohol use disorder spectrum.
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: You have a vested interest in realizing, hey, make this
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: is occupying a place in my life that isn't great.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: And so I interviewed a mom for the book. She's
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: a mom. She was a teacher of the Year in
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: our school district, and she had gotten to the point
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: where she had to have her two classes of wine
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: every day when she got home from teaching, and she
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: wasn't getting drunk, she wasn't emptying our bank account, but
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: she had just it had become this issue of control.
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: And she's like, if I don't have my two classes
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: of I deserve that. And so what she found is
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: she was worshiping that as her relief and her release right.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: And and she calls herself an alcoholic and and she
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: fits the definition. She was going out of her way.
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: She would if she would go to a restaurant and
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: they didn't have you know, wine, or they messed up
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: or they ran out, she would, you know, break the
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: waiter and she's like, who am I? Who am I?
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: I'm not getting drunk, but like, what's going on? And
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: I think especially these days with mommy and wine culture,
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: that has become really popular. Yeah, for sure.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, We've got so much to unpack.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Friends.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break for a word
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: from our sponsor, but I want you to stick with
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: us because John's going to share more about his personal
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: story and how we can break free from hidden addictions.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to your Hope the Perspective, where today we're
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: talking with John Seidel, the author of Confessions of a
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Christian Alcoholic John. You've shared a bit about your story,
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: but I'm really curious. How is Confessions different from other
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: recovery books.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: You know, I just in the day we're recording this.
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: I just did a little video about this, and I
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: struggle sometimes with how much to say here. I'm going
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: to be honest because I'm not trying to the to
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: The way to the top is not by just cutting
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: everyone down, right. But here's the deal. Here's what I
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: found when I started writing this book. I had a
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: lot of encouragement, especially Christians within the what they call
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: the recovery community, that said, hey, what you're saying is
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: not popular, but you need to say it because no
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: one else is. Well what is that? Well, here's what
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: I come to. Here's where I came to found in
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: my addiction recovery journey. I had many times I said
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: I had an up and down relationship with alcohol in
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: my entire adult life. What I had come to find
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: is I was never able to completely give up drinking
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: because I was always trying to give up drinking. And
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: so I wrote this article like, well, how were you
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: able to stop drinking? I said, I stopped trying to
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: stop drinking. I stopped trying to stop drinking. And there's
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: a I love C. S Lewis. I named my son
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: after C. S. Lewis. And I was rereading Your Christianity
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: about a month ago for seminary and he's got that
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: famous line in there that like, shoot for Heaven and
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: you get the earth thrown in, right, And so what
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: I finally came to understand is I had to shoot
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: for Jesus. If I shot for Jesus, I would get
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: sobriety thrown in one hundred percent for sure, right. If
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: I shot for cultivating that relationship, if I shot for
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: letting him into all the broken pieces of myself that
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: I had walled off and said I am not going there.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: And if I'm not going there, you're not going there.
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: And so what I talk about in the book is
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: that process, what that looks like, how people can do that,
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: How I did that? And I interviewed someone for the
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: book that was a very prominent person in the addiction
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: recovery space, a Christian former pastor. We did the interview
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: and I got an email from him later that day
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: or the next day, and he said, Hey, you can't
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: use any of my interview and you can't use my name,
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: And I said, oh, okay, why and said, because the
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: way you're talking about this is is harmful because people
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: think this, will think this, you know, when you're talking
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: about in terms of faith in Jesus, people are just
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: going to think it's an issue of having more faith
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: or or it's just a moral failure. And he's like,
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: this is a disease. And here's the thing. I don't
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: doubt that there's a lot of harm. I know there's
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: been a lot of harm done in the name of Jesus,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: especially when it comes to addiction. In fact, I write
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: in my first book about faith and mental health, there's
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: a lot of people that said, just pray about it,
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: just you know, pray your depression away, just pray your
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: anxiety way. But here's the error that I think so
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: many people make is it's a both and it's a
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: spiritual issue and it's also a physical issue, right, But
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: the ultimate issues that I needed to uproot, the issues
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: that were at the root of my drinking. I said,
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: I had to get to the root of it. Like
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: my wife told me, Yeah, those weren't those weren't things
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: I could just like there were spiritual issues. There were
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: spiritual brokenness. There was sin that had that had caused trauma,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: and there was my actions were sin, right, like, I
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: did things that I should not have done. And I
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: can't just say this is a virus inside of me,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: and and if that's true, then there's no hope for recovery. Right,
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: And so what I talk about in the book is, yes,
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: there was a there was a physical aspect that at
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: some point I can't tell you when, but at some
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: point took over, right that I craved the substance. I said,
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: well that that two weeks that I gave it up
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: before I hit rock bottom. I gave it up. And well,
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I didn't have I didn't have the shakes. Well I
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: did have the night sweats. And when I gave it
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: up again, they came back. And and I'm waking up
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: at two in the morning. My entire sheets are drenched,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: and I'm having to change my pajamas because I'm just
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: so good I thought I'd peed myself. Right. Well, that's
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: that's that's Those are physical symptoms, right, those are withdrawal symptoms.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: My autonomic nervous system was so jacked up from the
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: amount that I was drinking in for how long I
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: was And so yes there's a physical aspect. My body
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: craved the substance, but I had to get to that
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: point like I didn't. I didn't drink alcohol, and and
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: from the moment I drink it, it was I just
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: couldn't control myself. You know. The chapter in the book
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: is called a slow fade? And how true is that
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: for so many of us on anything? Right? Like, I
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: just don't think people wake up one day and they say,
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: I am addicted to food, I am addicted to heroin, right,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: I'm addicted to alcohol. Right. There's that process. And the
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: reason you turn to those things, the binging, the purging,
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: the alcohol, the drugs, the pornography your kids, is because
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: you're trying to you're trying to use them as a
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: means of escape. There's a book called The Many Lives
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: of Mama Love and she's not a Christian, but it's
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: a memoir. It's an addiction memoir, and it's a suburban
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: mom and she, I mean, she becomes like this, like
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: suburban mom drug kingpin and doing drugs and she ends
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: up in prison and she opens the book and she says,
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: I was only ever addicted to the white whale of addictions,
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: and that is escapism.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: And that was going to be my question for you.
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Were you seeking the alcohol or were you seeking the
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: numbing effect for the other.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: It's a great question, and I would say yes, right like.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: It's I get it, it's both. Yeah.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: I'm someone who likes the burn of bourbon man. I
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: like that burn down my throat. I like the taste.
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: My wife can't even smell it, and she's you know,
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: but I like it. I like the taste of beer.
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: I'm like, so excited right now if you're listening to
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: this and you're gonna be going into recovery, if you're
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: in recovery, like the non alcoholic I joke like, it's
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: been two and a half three years since I've had one,
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: But to me, it tastes pretty pretty pretty much the same.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: But but I like the taste of beer, right. But
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: I would say that in general, even if it was
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: in the moment, even if in the moment I was like, well,
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: I'm just you know, I just like the taste of it.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: How do I put this? When you know that something
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: is bad for you, and you know that what you're
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: doing is unhealthy, right, and you still do it anyways,
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: there's something deeper. There's always something deeper, right, Like I
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: don't know anyone, especially when it comes to like eating disorders,
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: who was purging and like that, even that process. I mean,
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: it's very guttural, right, you're not saying I like this, right?
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: Maybe sometimes in a twisted way, right, And that's where
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: where we're sinning destruction and the devil gets sin. But
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: I think in general, and I had someone ask me
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: this recently. They said, they said, what does your childhood
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: traumas have to do with your drinking? How did that?
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: How did you become an alcoholic? I think to people
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: like you and me who are kind of been in
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: the quote industry, well, that's a slam dunk. What do
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: you mean? But I think there's a lot of people
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: out there who that's maybe if they don't want to
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: admit it, that's the question in the back of their mind.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Am I at thirty six drinking away? What happened to
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: me at six? Again? Yes? And no, Here's why it's
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: no in that I'm not sitting there every time I'm
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: drinking and getting drunk and I'm just through the week
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: sobbing about the abuse that happened to me and the
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: trauma that happened sometimes, right, Like there's certain anniversaries that
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: come up that you're like, yeah, I'm definitely just drinking.
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: I don't want to deal with this. But what happens
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: as a as a child, and you can speak into
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: this as well, is when those things happen, your brain
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: literally cannot make sense of them, right, the meaning making
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: part of your brain they call it, just can't do it.
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: And so you look to escape. And at sick, that's
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: tanka trucks. At thirty six, that's tequila, right. And so
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: what happens is you create these patterns in these habits
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: of escape. So what happens at six, and what happens
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: at twelve, and what happens at fourteen, you're just like,
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: I just I just need to escape this. I can't
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: make sense of this, right, And so at six it's
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: taka trucks, At fourteen it's masturbation. At thirty six it's alcohol, right.
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: And so you what you get used to and what
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: you train yourself is when something's stressful, when something bad happens,
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: I need to I just want to escape this. I
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: just want to escape this. I don't want to sit
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: here and think about it. I want to sit here
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: and make sense of it. I don't want to have
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: to think about if I'm a failure or or even
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: just speak to those lies. Right. And so what I told,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: what I told that person is it became a habit
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: of escape. And so when I hit the hardest part
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: of my life, right, I went for the easiest form
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: of escape, and that was alcohol.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: That's key because we are so pain averse.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't want to and I don't mean just
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: physical pain, although there's that too, but physical pain, emotional pain,
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: relational pain, spiritual pain that we just want to do
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: whatever we can as quickly as we can to ease
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: that pain. And for you, the easiest way of escaping
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: it was alcohol. For other people, it's shopping for other people.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: It's gambling for other people. It's delving into work for
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: other people, it's drugs. But it that's why I so
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: appreciate your perspective about it taking over, because we're seeking
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: that escape.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: We've got so much to talk about. Friends.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break for a word
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: from our sponsor. But when we come back, I'm going
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: to ask John to share a hope filled perspectives about
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: how even as Christians we can find help and healing.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back, John, I feel like this is
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: a really important point. Would you just speak for a
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: moment about why repentance is so important when it comes
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: to these secret struggles that we have.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think I live in an area,
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: especially where it feels like every week there's a new
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: pastor falling, there's a new leader falling.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Right, We're in the same area, yeah.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: Right, And I think so this gets to be a
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: hot topic, right, what do you do with those people?
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: And one of the things I say is a no matter,
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: Grace is available and has been given to everyone, right.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: And I think what I say is, if you want
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: to figure out what to do with those people, you
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: have to look at repentance to start. Right now. Hey,
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that you treat people like trash once
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: they fall. The Bible talks about pretty clearly that it's
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: our love in the sense that can call people to repentance, right,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: So I want to be clear about that that it's
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: not writing people off. But I think in the end
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: what's important is repentance is kind of like your indicator
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: about where someone stands regarding what they've done. Right. And
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: so for me, what I talk about in the book
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: is if you are someone who has gone through addiction,
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: there is a difference between worldly shame and godly grief.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: Worldly shame beats yourself up. And I beat myself up
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: for years. And you know what I did with that
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: worldly shame, I drank it away, like I just kept
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: going back to the bottle, right, But when I finally
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: got to the point of godly grief, that very quickly
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: led me to repentance. So that's why I talk about
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: how repentance is the kid, Like, that's how you know,
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: like is someone just sad they got caught or are
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: they sad for what they've done to themselves and to
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: those around them? Into God? When you see them repent, right,
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: that's when you know, Okay, that's a godly that's a
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: godly grief. And so I think we see this very
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: clearly in the Bible with two people. You have Judas
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: and you have Peter. Right, Judas very quickly regrets what
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: he did. But what does he do. He takes his
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: own life like it literally kills him. The worldly shame
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: Peter denies Jesus three times, what does he do? We
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: get this beautiful scene after Jesus comes back from the dead,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: where he appears to Peter and Peter literally jumps out
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: of the boat. He recognizes Jesus in the shot. He
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: jumps out of the boat and runs to him. Right.
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: And this is, I think, where we get this, the
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: beautiful the three times where so Peter denies Jesus three times,
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: and then Jesus asks Peter, do you love me? Of course?
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: Of course I love you Lord, of course other than
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: feed my sheep. Right. And so you juxtaposed those two.
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: What did Judis do? He ran and it literally killed them.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: Peter ran, but he ran towards Jesus, right. And so
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: repentance is so key to restoring our relationship with the Lord, right,
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: and coming to understand it's not just I've gotten caught, right,
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: but it's I am. I am a nobody, I am like.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: And I don't say that. I say that in the good,
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: in the good aspects of the term the humility, right,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: not the self deprecation, the self flagulation, right, but the
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: the man I am? Just what have I done? Who
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: have I become? What is my world? Become? Right? And
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: and when we embrace that that leads to action. Okay,
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: that leads to action. And so that's why I like
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: these leaders that we're talking about. They're repentant. Right, it's
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: not like like the Bible calls us to forgiveness. Now
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: here's the key thing, and I make this point in
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: the book. Repentance does not always equal restoration. It will
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: always equal restoration with your savior. Right, but sometimes the
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: relationships that we have severed and broken and left in
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: a just our wake of destruction can't be repaired. Luckily
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: they have been for me, but I know people who
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: they haven't. But that doesn't determine, like whether you're on
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: a good path. And so I tell people like repentance
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: and even just like understand there's some traumas here that
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: that happened, Like those aren't excuses. They're explanations, but they're
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: not excuses. And so like repentance, your traumas, they're not
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: a get out of jail free card. In fact, you
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: may have to go to jail for some of the
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: things you did in the throes of your addiction, but
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: you will go to jail in the most peaceful way
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: possible because you know, I am I this has been restored.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: This godly grief has led to repentance. And I know
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: a guy it's been a guest on my podcast. He
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: was a Major League baseball play and had a wild
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: night one night, ended up in a woman's room, was
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: charged and found guilty of I believe the actual charge
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: was like attempted rape, and he spent years in prison
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: for that. And yet like he is, he's one of
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: the most joy filled people that you know. It's just
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: got a smile on his face. He stayed out of trouble,
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: and he's like, he's like, I did it. I did it.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: It's my fault. Like I got drunk, I made I
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: did that action. That's not indicative of of who I
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: believe I am, fully, but I did it. I need
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: to pay the price. And he served his time and
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: he did it well and he's out and he's like
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: the Lord is good. Right. So that's why I think
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: repentance is key. And you know a lot of these
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: recovery programs, right, and you make amends, but know that
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: making amends does not mean like there are some relationships
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: that can't be restored. And that's okay.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: We're getting close to the end of this episode. But
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: he just mentioned recovery programs, and I know that you're
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: very open about not going to AAA or any twelve
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: step recovery program. Just real briefly, why didn't you do it?
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: And are you against those or what's your thought about that?
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, great question, I'm glad you asked it. And so
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: here's the short version. I am not against them. And
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: what I mean by that is, however, as I opened earlier,
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: I believe the best answer any addict is Jesus. Now
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: that doesn't mean if you are like if you quit
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: alcohol or drugs called turkey, that can literally kill some people. Right,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: So don't hear me saying, oh my gosh, John just
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: said I just need Jesus. And so I don't need
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: to go to detox, you know, no, no, no, no, no, no.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: You may need to go to detox, right, Like alcohol withdrawal,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: for example, can literally kill you. Right, go to detox, right.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: And if at that detoc there's an AA, go to AA. Right.
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: My point is I think there's something better for you
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: when you press into Jesus. Does that mean you can't
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: do that without that AA? No? But I also think
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: largely the language and the attitude in many AA programs
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: has become to protect that idea of a higher power.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Whereas before it was to be open, it's now and
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: I just know so many stories of people who have
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: tried to bring Jesus into AA and been very open
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: about that being their higher power, and they are now
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: seen as kind of like the people with sidey right,
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: And so I just think there are better programs. Celebrate
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: recovery is a Christian version. I think that's better than AA.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: And I would say that I think some of the
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: greatest pushback that I've gotten are from people in twelve
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: step recovery, even Christian twelve step recovery. I sent some
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: inquiries into some programs Christian based programs around me and
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: one of them, one of them said, Hey, you're sober,
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: but you're not in recovery because you're not doing that program,
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: you know. And it just seems to me that when
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: it comes to twelve twelve step programs, there is a
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: proclivity to replace one addiction for another.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: And I want to remind listeners you said earlier in
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: this episode you did seek out therapy. Yes, no, it
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: wasn't like you were anti professional help. Absolutely, you just
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: went a different route. And I want to remind listeners
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: that Jesus healed in a myriad of ways.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely and so and so yeah. I mean I
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: just think, like I don't don't worship a program. If
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: it's helpful, and it's useful, and you can pursue Jesus
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: as part of that, do it right, But don't worship
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: a program. Don't just trade one again, one slave master
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: for another, right, one master for another. And so that's
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: that's what I encourage people. And listen. We had a
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: family member recently who was struggling with addiction. They live
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: in a kind of rural community and the only thing
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: available is AA, and I said, go to AA. They're like, wait,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: I thought you were against AA. I said, I'm not
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: against AA. Right, Like, if that's what's available to you,
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: do it the pursue Jesus as well, right.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: And I think an overarching message is don't fall under
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: the lie that you have to do this recovery journey alone,
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: because Satan thrives in isolating us. But that could be
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: a a it could be celebrate recovery, it could be
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: a therapist, it could be a church mentor, but please
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: share it with a trusted individual. Don't isolate because this
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: has a tendency to make us isolate even more because
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: of that worldly shame.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, And so I talked about community as well
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: in the book, right, and so I did have a community,
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: and I did have I didn't have a quote unquote sponsor.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: I just paid my sponsor one hundred and fifty dollars
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: a week to walk to walk me through, you know,
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: all the pain and trauma and give me the advice
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: that I that I needed. Right, that's my sponsor. And
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: I had people. I've had people who've gone through twelve
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: Steps that have read the book and they said, oh,
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: you did the twelve steps. I'm like really, They're like yeah,
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: they're all in there. I'm like, oh, okay, neat right.
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: They just got to happen naturally.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: So, John, if a listener or a viewer is somehow
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: resonating with our conversation today, maybe they're struggling with some
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: kind of hidden secret addiction, or they have a loved
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: one who is what hope filled perspective would you want
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: to leave them with today?
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: Comes down to this phrase, there is another side, like
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: you can get through to the other side. I think
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: in the throes of my addiction, My perspective, even my
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: wife's at times was very dark, and it's hard to
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: see what life can look like without whatever that thing is.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: And you've alluded to this is like the vehicle for
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: talking about this stuff is alcohol, but it's really for
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: anyone who struggled with anything they don't want to do right.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: And so if you're struggling with a eating disorder, if
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: you're struggling with porn, if you're struggling with a sex addiction,
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: if you're struggling with codependency, just struggling with alcohol, it's
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: hard to see the other side. And I think that's
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: part of the lie, right, And you think, you know,
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: especially when it comes to alcohol, How am I gonna?
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: How am I going to I'm gonna have fun? How
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: am I gonna grieve? How am I gonna? How am
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: I gonna be sad? How am I gonna be? Like?
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: All this things? Right? Because by the end for me,
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: it was everything was drinking and right, it became drinking
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: and and drinking, like watching football and drinking, cooking and drinking,
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like it's just sad and drinking,
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: happy and drinking, right, And I'm just telling you there
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: is another side and listen. Sometimes, like you look at
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: the Bible, like sometimes going from one side of the
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: sea to the other involves a storm in the middle, right,
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: that Jesus has to call and that you have to
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: reach out to him. And that was true for me.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: Like getting to the other side, it wasn't like, oh
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: my gosh, the birds are chirping and the rainbow and
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: the breeze is so nice, right, like it was a storm.
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: But I can tell you that Jesus calms the storm,
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: and that life on the other side is so much
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: sweeter and and so much more fulfilling than I could
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: have ever imagined. Like I joke, I'm like, I've got
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: so many more pictures in my phone of like sunsets
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: and clouds and birds. I'm like, who am I? Right?
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: And you just there's just a zest and a sweetness
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: to life that I can tell you that only Jesus
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: can fill. That only Jesus can bring. And that's why,
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: going back to the part we just talked about, that's
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: why I tell people, can you get sober without Jesus?
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: Absolutely millions of people have gotten sober without Jesus. But
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: you're not going to live the most flourishing and fulfilled
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: life without Jesus. And that's what I want for you,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: and I'm telling you that's available on the other side.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Friends, I hope that you heard that, and I hope
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: that there was something in today's episode that has.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Encouraged your heart.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: And if you know someone who's struggling with some kind
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: of addiction, would you consider sharing this episode with them
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: to encourage their heart from a biblically based, hope filled perspective. Now,
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: this has been such a valuable and engaging and thoughtful discussion,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: but I feel like we've just barely scratched the surface,
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: and I think that there's so much more that we
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: could share with our audience to help them in their journey.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Would you be willing to come back for a part
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: two of this conversation?
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, let's do it, all right.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Let's do it. Friends.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: I hope you'll tune in to part two where we
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: share more help and hope for you on your journey
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: until we meet again next time. You know, it's my
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: prayer for you that you have a hope filled week.
• 46:27
  Speaker 5: Your ragged and torn past may be the key to
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: God's future for you. We all endure trials, pain, and
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: hardship in this life. Too often we believe these experiences
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: disqualify us from being useful to God. But the truth
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: is your past pain and brokenness serve as preparation for
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: what God wants to do in and through you, if
• 46:57
  Speaker 5: you will surrender to entrust Him in Sacred scars. Neuropsychologist
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: and fellow sufferer, doctor Michelle Bankson helps you understand the
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: suffering from a biblical perspective, Discover how the trials of
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: your life serve a purpose, reflect on the healing that
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: God has accomplished, and comfort others, but the comfort God
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: has given you. Just as Jesus' scars didn't disappear after
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: his resurrection and confirmed that he was who he said
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: he was and that he did what he said he'd do,
• 47:36
  Speaker 5: our emotional or physical scars tell our story and lend
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: credence to our testimony of God's love and power. If
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: you are ready to turn your past pain into present
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: comfort and future hope, let doctor Benkson be your compassionate guide.
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: Jill Savage, host of The No More Perfect Odd and
• 48:00
  Speaker 5: author of No More Perfect Marriages, have this to say
• 48:04
  Speaker 5: about sacred scars. While we wish for a pain free life.
• 48:09
  Speaker 5: The dark seasons are where God invites us into the
• 48:13
  Speaker 5: most growth. In the pages of this book, you will
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: come to understand how God uses pain in powerful ways.
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: If you're human, you need this book. Pick up a
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: copy of Sacred Scars wherever books are sold, and watch
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: God turn your pain into purpose.
• 48:37
  Speaker 6: Thank you for joining doctor Manson for your hope filled perspective.
• 48:41
  Speaker 6: We hope you are encouraged by her authenticity, vulnerability, and
• 48:45
  Speaker 6: biblical truths. If you enjoy today's conversation, when you take
• 48:49
  Speaker 6: a moment right now, open up your podcast app and
• 48:53
  Speaker 6: look for the subscribe button right next to our podcast
• 48:55
  Speaker 6: profile image. We think this podcast is best enjoyed with
• 48:59
  Speaker 6: friends and click share in your podcast app and send
• 49:03
  Speaker 6: a friend our link to share hope with them. If
• 49:06
  Speaker 6: you have a comment, question, or suggest a topic for
• 49:08
  Speaker 6: a future show, reach out to our staff at info
• 49:12
  Speaker 6: at Hope Prevails dot org. For additional resources. Information about
• 49:16
  Speaker 6: doctor Bankson's books where free downloads, or to contact her
• 49:20
  Speaker 6: to speak at your next event, please visit doctor Michelbe
• 49:24
  Speaker 6: dot com. Until next time, May you have a hope
• 49:27
  Speaker 6: filled week.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: I'd like to take just a second to thank the
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: this podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll
• 49:40
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• 49:44
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