Latest / Gospel Talks Podcast / #43 - Deeply Loved: A Pastor’s Journey into Relational Evangelism with Pastor Josh Musgrave

Transcript

#43 - Deeply Loved: A Pastor’s Journey into Relational Evangelism with Pastor Josh Musgrave · Gospel Talks Podcast

• 0:00
  Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.
• 0:08
  My name is George, I'm your host today and with me is Josh Musgrave.
• 0:13
  That's a familiar last name, right?
• 0:14
  So, you know, just excited to get to know you a little bit more today.
• 0:19
  Josh is lead pastor at Calvary Crossway in Castle Rock, Colorado, which is right there in the Denver area.
• 0:25
  So, super excited to know
• 0:27
  get to know Jeff Musgrave's son and do you have any interesting stories about your dad, some dirt here and there?
• 0:33
  No, I'm kidding.
• 0:33
  But no, start us, man.
• 0:35
  Start us on your childhood.
• 0:36
  What was it like growing up and how did you get from, you know, growing up with your family to where God has you now?
• 0:43
  Yeah, that's probably a lot longer story than we have time for.
• 0:46
  But obviously, I grew up in this, the Denver area here.
• 0:50
  My dad planted Highlands Baptist Church when I was two.
• 0:54
  And so I was a church planting kid.
• 0:56
  were then in different buildings throughout that time.
• 1:00
  God didn't give us a building till later.
• 1:02
  I think I preached my first message when I was two years old in the nursery.
• 1:06
  I really just wanted to be like dad.
• 1:08
  I would make people sit down.
• 1:09
  I'd probably pull hair and do all the wrong stuff and make people sit down and probably just yell at them.
• 1:14
  But I think all growing up, I just had a desire to.
• 1:18
  love God's people well, like I saw my dad exemplify in many ways and to share the gospel in that I learned how to preach really early in life and share the gospel.
• 1:32
  I think it took me later in life to really learn how to share the gospel relationally.
• 1:35
  I think I was really good at maybe a street conversation in, you know, five, 10 minutes, here's the gospel, what do want to do with it?
• 1:42
  But I think as I've grown up and pastored it, I've learned
• 1:46
  so much about being able to share the gospel in a relational way as opposed to just a presentation in that.
• 1:53
  So I think I'm supposed to be saying how I grew up.
• 1:55
  yeah.
• 1:56
  Yeah.
• 1:56
  We can see what you're excited to get into though.
• 1:58
  That's great.
• 1:59
  We'll get into that.
• 2:00
  Yeah.
• 2:00
  I really, so we grew up in a Christian home.
• 2:03
  I knew about Jesus, but I think it was when I was about 12 years old, I really trusted Jesus.
• 2:09
  I remember hearing a message
• 2:11
  which I thought was about hell.
• 2:13
  One of my mentors was the person who preached the message at Nelson.
• 2:16
  And he said, I never preached a message like that.
• 2:19
  Either way, the Holy Spirit was working on my heart and I recognized I was a sinner and I needed Jesus.
• 2:25
  And so I was embarrassed because I had already been saved and baptized.
• 2:29
  so I went and stepped back.
• 2:32
  My grandpa sat down with me at my dad's office desk at the church and offered me a Werther's original across the table.
• 2:41
  He said, what do you have to do to take this gift, Josh?
• 2:44
  I just have to take it.
• 2:45
  He Jesus is offering you salvation the same way.
• 2:48
  Will you receive his gift?
• 2:50
  I trusted Jesus.
• 2:54
  I did a lot of rebelling against my parents in high school, but I don't know that I ever really strayed from knowing and loving Jesus other than the fact that I wasn't obeying him
• 3:06
  by being rebellious.
• 3:09
  that first time that you air quote trusted in Jesus and then the second time when you genuinely accept what was the differences what happened the first time and what was
• 3:17
  different the second time I am a people pleaser and I love for people to think well of me or to fit in with the group and I was five years old I was at a youth crusade and they
• 3:29
  took an invitation at the end and everybody got up and I was like I should do this so I got up and then they had me pray a prayer and you know I didn't need to get baptized and
• 3:37
  so I got baptized and
• 3:40
  So that was really what that was.
• 3:41
  I wanted to...
• 3:42
  So you were baptized and then your grandpa led I've been double dunked.
• 3:47
  I'm a double dunker.
• 3:49
  Okay.
• 3:50
  And that was all embarrassing.
• 3:51
  So after my
• 3:53
  senior year, I went off to Bible college.
• 3:54
  had a rough freshman year, and then I switched schools and was training to be a preacher and really just wanted to share the gospel with people.
• 4:05
  And I think back then I thought I would be a traveling evangelist, which there's, that's not what I am.
• 4:12
  It's not at all what I was, but I thought I would just go in and blow up and blow out.
• 4:17
  That was kind of what I thought I would do.
• 4:20
  And so I practiced a lot on preaching, but what I really learned is how to develop relationships with people.
• 4:27
  I went to grad school for a year and then got called to come home and I was a youth pastor under my dad for a few years and just got to love on teenagers.
• 4:39
  And there were really a lot of teenagers that I'd grown up with in youth group with.
• 4:42
  you know, I, was 22 and they were
• 4:47
  18 not a lot of difference in there and wanted to inspire in our teenagers a Passion to follow Jesus.
• 4:57
  So you actually worked for your dad?
• 5:00
  for how many years I Think so I was trying to add this up It's gets confusing because I worked for dad and I was the pastor at Harvest Baptist Church back then for a while I
• 5:11
  think I worked for three years
• 5:14
  But I do tend to get confused because those years when I worked for two churches and had a part-time job get really, really confused.
• 5:21
  So, okay, you, you, you're a youth pastor, by the way, we talked about this with
• 5:27
  Pastor Joel, he was a youth pastor for a while too.
• 5:30
  Youth are so hard to reach today and it's critical that we reach in the world is really pulling younger and younger on young people, know, so starting at 12 with the LGBTQ
• 5:40
  agenda.
• 5:41
  What would you tell somebody who's trying to reach a young person right now?
• 5:45
  What would you tell them to do?
• 5:46
  One, I don't think they're as hard to reach as a lot of people think.
• 5:49
  The world's put so many questions in people's minds and there's no real answers and the Bible has those.
• 5:56
  And so do genuine relationships.
• 5:58
  What's lacking for every kid who's consumed with their phone is real personal touches, real people.
• 6:06
  They feel like they have more friends than ever before, but everything is so surfacey.
• 6:10
  When a person genuinely displays to a teenager,
• 6:16
  Hmm.
• 6:20
  that they are loved.
• 6:21
  It is, for many of them, the only place they see that.
• 6:25
  People are so distracted and it's so powerful.
• 6:31
  And so I think sometimes we think the world's got all of this stuff and what the world is doing is confusing people and what we have in the Word of God are answers for these
• 6:40
  people.
• 6:40
  And so you've got a group of young people
• 6:44
  that are questioning everything.
• 6:46
  They have to.
• 6:47
  They've got news from here and here and all these videos and they never know what's true.
• 6:52
  And we have the Bible, which we know is absolute truth.
• 6:57
  My wife is a teacher in a local public school and kids all the time are coming and spending time with her because they see she loves them.
• 7:08
  And we have teenagers in our youth group that are
• 7:11
  Constantly giving out Bibles because their friends are asking what do you believe looking for that?
• 7:16
  So I think we can really get afraid that this generation is gonna be so hard to law to to win But they aren't there.
• 7:24
  They're so thirsty and they're so receptive To the gospel and I think the really the pathway for that is really helping them see that they're loved You know, I don't know if
• 7:34
  you've thought this but I've seen this just generally right now with AI
• 7:38
  is that everybody keeps feeling very, very threatened by AI and is AI gonna replace me?
• 7:43
  And to me, AI actually enhances human interaction because there are things AI can never do for you that a human relationship can.
• 7:54
  So I think the humanity of humans shines all the more in a very autonomous, intelligent world.
• 8:01
  I don't know if you're seeing that where you are, but I mean, that's probably something to talk about is,
• 8:06
  Is AI, how is AI affecting ministry?
• 8:08
  And I think actually it enhances our ability to minister to people because.
• 8:12
  Yeah, I think it tends to cripple teenagers because they use it too much and then they're not thinking for themselves.
• 8:19
  for their they're thirsty for real relationships.
• 8:22
  Yes.
• 8:23
  And no computer, no interaction, even if you're interacting with real people through Instagram and TikTok are going to provide what a real human interaction.
• 8:34
  is.
• 8:35
  Yeah, yeah.
• 8:36
  Okay, so you're you're youth pastor, you're pastoring harvest, you're kind of doing that three years.
• 8:42
  Yeah, actually.
• 8:42
  So dad threw me into harvest.
• 8:47
  So, so kind of what happened is, so Pastor Nelson, he was the pastor there, he was 88 years old, they had, they had asked, I think, 12 different guys to come and actually
• 8:58
  asked, they candidate in
• 9:00
  They asked the guys to come and be the pastor and all of them said no.
• 9:04
  Wow.
• 9:04
  In hindsight, maybe I should have.
• 9:06
  But they, I came with our youth group one Sunday to just fill in the pulpit for Pastor Nelson.
• 9:12
  And then after that, the deacons came to my dad and said, Hey, would he come and be the pastor?
• 9:17
  And so dad asked me and I said, no, I am not interested in that.
• 9:20
  I wanted to die a youth pastor.
• 9:22
  I figured out that's the easiest way to stay immature the rest of my life.
• 9:26
  God had other plans for that.
• 9:29
  I and then so dad and Pastor Nelson made a backroom deal.
• 9:34
  And I really wanted to stay the youth pastor and so they allowed me to stay as the youth pastor and to train underneath Pastor Nelson as his assistant for a year, which was one of
• 9:46
  the greatest gifts that I think I've been given is the ability to train underneath of Pastor Nelson, who at the time was 88.
• 9:54
  to be able to hear his stories.
• 9:56
  I think most of our pastoral meetings went something like, Josh, you didn't do this well.
• 10:01
  And that was very short.
• 10:02
  And then let me tell you 10 stories.
• 10:05
  And I would just hear story after story after story of God's work in his life and in his ministry.
• 10:12
  And it just inspired me to pursue ministry in a hard place in a way that was very hopeful and hope-filled with him.
• 10:23
  So we did that.
• 10:24
  I overlapped the two.
• 10:25
  So I worked at Highlands Baptist Church as their youth pastor and at Harvest Baptist Church as the assistant pastor and then as the lead pastor for a time.
• 10:33
  If anyone ever asks you to work at two different churches at the same time, I would say that's probably not a great idea.
• 10:40
  But it was really a time of growth for me.
• 10:44
  I don't think I've ever worked as many hours before in my life, but it was really, it was good.
• 10:48
  And it was good to be able to learn from Pastor Nelson, who funny,
• 10:51
  Pastor Nelson was also my dad's mentor.
• 10:54
  And so it was neat to be able to be mentored by the man who helped set up dad and help him plan a church.
• 10:59
  And then me as I came in to help replant a dining church in Castle Rock.
• 11:04
  I think there's probably a thousand guys out there that would have killed for the opportunity to be mentored by Ed Nelson towards the end of his ministry with all that
• 11:12
  wealth of experience and wisdom, knowledge that that's truly gift.
• 11:17
  Okay, so how do you go from that
• 11:20
  those years to where you are now.
• 11:22
  Yeah.
• 11:23
  Well, our church needed a lot of change.
• 11:26
  We had...
• 11:27
  You mean Highlands or...
• 11:28
  Harvest.
• 11:29
  Harvest.
• 11:29
  Yeah.
• 11:29
  Harvest Baptist Church needed a lot of change.
• 11:34
  Our culture had changed.
• 11:35
  A lot of things had been, had changed and transformed.
• 11:39
  But the passion and legacy of our church was to...
• 11:42
  be passionate about the gospel, to share the gospel, to make the great commission of the same.
• 11:47
  We call it now in our church to make Jesus non-ignorable.
• 11:52
  And I wanted to honor the legacy of these older believers, but also help us become
• 11:59
  culturally relevant to the place that we were able to impact Castle Rock, Colorado.
• 12:05
  And so we did this, we did replanting the slow way.
• 12:10
  would advise people now like tear off the bandaid and you know, here are the things that you need to do.
• 12:16
  But we, we took 10 years of training and then making a change.
• 12:22
  And then we would train and they would make a change.
• 12:25
  And then we would make some more training and then we would make a change.
• 12:27
  And in that time,
• 12:28
  God blessed us in amazing ways.
• 12:31
  The Lord gave us a building that we were able to use and grow in and just did some really amazing things.
• 12:41
  And so for 10 years there was just, we'll train, here's what the Bible teaches and then make a change and then train and here's what the Bible teaches and then make a change.
• 12:48
  then throughout all of that, dad was coming in and doing exchange seminars through our time there.
• 12:55
  And so I think we've had
• 12:57
  the exchange seminar in our church in every rendition that it's been in.
• 13:01
  So every time I look at us doing a new one, I have to say, Hey, no, not those books.
• 13:05
  Those are the not the new ones.
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  We'll use the new ones.
• 13:07
  And in that, but just trying to keep a passion for evangelism on the forefront of our church as we move forward.
• 13:15
  And then in 2018, just a number of things happened.
• 13:19
  Our church ran out of money.
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  The exact thing that a church pastor is not supposed to do is run out of money.
• 13:24
  so that we couldn't keep the building and we had to decide, do we keep the building?
• 13:28
  Do I go full-time for work and then the church keeps the building and the church made the decision to sell the building.
• 13:36
  We sold the building and moved into a mobile church.
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  And one of the things that we'd recognized then is as a church, we had gotten to the place where we were just trying to survive.
• 13:47
  We weren't thinking about our community and how to reach our community or how to share the gospel.
• 13:52
  We were just trying to figure out how do we survive?
• 13:55
  How do we keep our church going?
• 13:57
  How do we keep moving?
• 13:58
  And our focus had actually turned away from relational evangelism to how do we stay together and how do we make this work?
• 14:06
  How do we keep the building?
• 14:07
  And we made a pointed decision when we went and moved mobile that we are going.
• 14:13
  to pursue reaching our culture.
• 14:14
  We don't have control over that.
• 14:16
  The reality is we could have failed and we were willing to do that.
• 14:20
  We were willing to go in and to say, we're gonna give everything we can to be able to reach the people of Castle Rock, to be able to lift people up, to be able to encourage
• 14:31
  people, to be able to help people see Jesus, to make Jesus non-ignorable.
• 14:35
  And I think our first years of Mobile Church, we moved from a building into a trailer and then
• 14:41
  every Sunday set up, tear down, were hard.
• 14:45
  I think we went from 50 people to 30 people.
• 14:47
  While we grew less in numbers, we grew deep and we started to help people learn how to, how do you talk to your neighbors?
• 14:56
  How do you develop relationships where when people are struggling and those real soul needs are seen, they're able to then share the gospel.
• 15:03
  And we came out of that time, very deep.
• 15:08
  but not a whole lot of people when 2020 hit, I had been working for a social media marketing agency and, was teaching people how to use video and praise the Lord.
• 15:18
  That was exactly where the church needed to go.
• 15:20
  And we, we started doing video and started seeing people, get excited about it.
• 15:26
  We went into COVID lockdowns at 30 people.
• 15:30
  Our first meeting was outside in a huge tent.
• 15:33
  And it was 50 people by the end of that summer.
• 15:35
  We were 75 people and seeing people who would never darken the doors of the church just excited because there's live music and there are people gathered together and and it was
• 15:47
  beautiful to see people come in.
• 15:49
  We saw people come in and get saved.
• 15:51
  We saw the Lord just do some amazing things in that time.
• 15:54
  And I look back at the time when we had to make a lot of change and things felt static.
• 15:59
  What God really did during that
• 16:02
  time was take us and grow us deep, deep in our relationships with each other, deep in our relationship with God so that we could begin to create a deep relationship with our
• 16:13
  community and be able to help and share Jesus with them.
• 16:16
  And God's done some amazing things since then.
• 16:19
  So relational evangelism, that relational aspect is a super big deal to you.
• 16:24
  So why relational evangelism?
• 16:28
  I think when I grew up,
• 16:29
  I did, I mean, I would go down to 16th street mall and just grab anybody and ask them where, what would happen if you died?
• 16:35
  And it's not necessarily the best way to be able to start a relationship.
• 16:39
  They're like, are you planning something or what's going on?
• 16:41
  But it was so not relational.
• 16:44
  I, I was passionate about people wanting to know Jesus.
• 16:48
  I did want people to know Jesus, but my methodology was, let me speak at you.
• 16:54
  And what I've learned is
• 16:56
  The gospel is so much more powerful if I come beside someone and let's look at this together.
• 17:03
  And it deepens that relationship in a number of the men that I've seen come to the Lord over the last few years.
• 17:09
  When it comes to then discipling these men, it's so easy because we have a relationship.
• 17:14
  I know them, I know their family.
• 17:16
  We've spent time together.
• 17:17
  We've gone to the coffee shop together.
• 17:19
  They've trusted Jesus and now they're like, well, what's next?
• 17:21
  Let's get excited.
• 17:23
  What do I do next?
• 17:24
  And let's go through the book of John and look at conversations with Jesus.
• 17:27
  And then let's let's look at how do I study the Bible on my own?
• 17:31
  All because we developed a relationship.
• 17:32
  If I did just sit down with some of these guys and said, hey, let's talk about who Jesus is and share the gospel without that relationship.
• 17:39
  The discipleship pathway would have been cut off and what developing a relationship does it want?
• 17:44
  It makes it easy.
• 17:45
  I'm investing in the person's life.
• 17:47
  They're invested in my life.
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  So they want to hear what's most important to me.
• 17:51
  And then they hear that I'm, they're important to me and they want to invest in that.
• 17:56
  And, and so, and that's what Jesus did.
• 17:59
  I Jesus invested in relationships.
• 18:01
  He invested in people.
• 18:02
  He touched real people and didn't just touch them and heal their diseases, but he touched them, healed their diseases, and then encouraged them to walk with him or to follow him or
• 18:12
  to go tell about him or
• 18:13
  He calls one woman, his daughter, a woman who is an outcast of society, he's constantly pursuing people for relationship.
• 18:21
  My sharing of the gospel when I was younger was there wasn't about a relationship.
• 18:26
  Let's see if people get saved and then I don't know those people.
• 18:30
  I I had people pray, but now the people that I've seen come to the Lord, they're my best friends.
• 18:36
  I sit down every Monday afternoon.
• 18:40
  with a couple and a man that I trusted that trusted Jesus.
• 18:44
  And right now we're studying theology.
• 18:46
  We just looked at the hypostatic union.
• 18:49
  The fact that Jesus is fully God and fully man.
• 18:53
  And here's a guy who didn't understand anything.
• 18:56
  And now he's beginning to say, what is theology?
• 18:58
  And what does the Bible say?
• 19:00
  And why is that important?
• 19:03
  Never could have done that without a relationship.
• 19:06
  to play the devil's advocate a little bit because this is kind of, sometimes what gets thrown my way is, well, there's no urgency in relational evangelism.
• 19:17
  mean, people can die now.
• 19:19
  I mean, Jesus could come back today.
• 19:21
  And so where's the urgency in that?
• 19:24
  How would you answer that as somebody who really believes in relationships like we do?
• 19:28
  What would you say to a pastor who criticizes our approach this way?
• 19:32
  God doesn't operate on my timeline.
• 19:34
  I really believe God is sovereign and he's in control.
• 19:37
  And when I see God beginning to work in a person's life to the point that they're willing to say, I'll do the Bible study, I know God's at work.
• 19:46
  And I know this too.
• 19:47
  I'm not the one who's supposed to like pull all the strings and say all the right things and convince them God's gonna do that work.
• 19:53
  That's one of the beauties of the Bible study is.
• 19:55
  I, they get to look at what does the Bible say and wrestle through that.
• 19:58
  And I think the urgency many times is something that I get, I add that God doesn't have.
• 20:05
  God's, if God's got that person's number, they're going to come to them.
• 20:08
  And that's exciting.
• 20:10
  I can enthusiastically with great freedom pursue these people for the gospel, knowing that God's already at work.
• 20:19
  And when God's at work, he finishes what he starts.
• 20:22
  And it takes the pressure off of me as a human.
• 20:25
  If I had to just convince people, here's what the Bible says, man, I would fail, but I get to work in partnership with the Holy Spirit and watch him convince people that God is
• 20:34
  holy.
• 20:35
  And then them recognize the gravity of, not, I don't match up.
• 20:40
  And then the next week to recognize God's just.
• 20:44
  And I deserve judgment and to...
• 20:47
  to feel the gravity of that and then to see the beauty of God being loving and providing his son who's reached out to us to provide us salvation in a way that satisfies his holy
• 20:57
  just nature and seeing people begin to have that hope.
• 21:01
  I'm following the Holy Spirit's pathway for a person as God reveals that to them.
• 21:06
  And I'm not putting urgency, I'm not scaring someone into a decision.
• 21:11
  They're able to process through that.
• 21:13
  And it's so much more powerful.
• 21:15
  and it's lasting.
• 21:16
  Someone's not just saying, I better pray this so that they'll leave me alone, or I better pray this so that I don't go to hell.
• 21:22
  They're saying, I want to trust Jesus because I want to walk with him.
• 21:25
  I want to follow him.
• 21:27
  Well, and I think what urgency misses is, I guess there's a couple ways to define it, but I think the Lord wants us to be diligent.
• 21:35
  He doesn't necessarily need us to be quick.
• 21:37
  And mean, he wasn't quick with the disciples.
• 21:39
  That was three years in the making.
• 21:42
  He chose 12 guys nobody else would have chosen.
• 21:45
  They were nobodies.
• 21:46
  And then he goes and the Holy Spirit comes down at Pentecost and I mean those guys changed the world.
• 21:54
  But it did not happen in three minutes.
• 21:57
  And Jesus often had to be such a patient teacher.
• 22:01
  He gives us that inside look into his ministry.
• 22:03
  He has to repeat himself.
• 22:04
  If there was a book to be written, my friend Nathan Messler says he would write a book on discipleship, on the disciples called
• 22:10
  lessons and not getting it.
• 22:12
  Because here are guys, very smart guys, but they just did not get it spiritually.
• 22:16
  And I mean, that's what it's like ministering to people.
• 22:18
  I don't know about you, but I didn't get it in one shot.
• 22:20
  It's like, it took you a couple tries.
• 22:23
  I to get dunked twice.
• 22:25
  So when we look at people and think microwave, I mean, think we got it totally wrong.
• 22:29
  We got to be crockpot.
• 22:30
  It's got to be, it's a longer process.
• 22:33
  And I love the way you put it.
• 22:34
  It's not about, is urgent really a way of you?
• 22:37
  inserting your timeline into what God is doing.
• 22:40
  What is urgent really about?
• 22:42
  So I, would have been two years ago, I got to see a police officer, trust the Lord.
• 22:50
  He had been married for 18 years to his wife and his wife had been praying that he would get saved for 18 years.
• 22:57
  Wasn't really interested in religion, was a really, really good guy, like very moral, very ethical, loved his family deeply.
• 23:05
  Good dad.
• 23:06
  great husband, didn't necessarily see a need for the gospel.
• 23:12
  In 2020, was like, he loves music and he loved going to concerts and there was no live music anywhere.
• 23:20
  And he was like, sure, I'll go to church with you.
• 23:23
  And so he started coming to our church and I started developing a relationship with him, which was hard.
• 23:28
  As an officer, one of his desires was to be not seen.
• 23:30
  He's like all the time, I wear this uniform and I'm seen and I'm the focal point and he didn't want...
• 23:36
  But again to pour into him and we began to develop a relationship and began to be my friend and then we had two officers attending our church at the same time and so one
• 23:48
  Sunday this would have been a year later.
• 23:53
  It might have even been two years later.
• 23:55
  I just said hey would you be willing to do a four lesson Bible study with this other guy and I and he said
• 24:02
  Yeah, what time is it?
• 24:03
  And thing is, both of these officers worked opposite shifts.
• 24:06
  And so, was like, hey, we can do it on our own.
• 24:08
  We can do it together.
• 24:11
  And so, we started studying the Bible together and started just looking at the Bible study.
• 24:16
  And the last study, we got to it and I asked him this question.
• 24:24
  It was at the end of everything and he hadn't trusted Jesus yet.
• 24:28
  I asked him, if you were to die,
• 24:30
  right now.
• 24:30
  It's one of the last questions in the Bible said if you were to die right now, where would you go?
• 24:34
  And he said, hell, I would, I would go to hell.
• 24:37
  And then I asked him another question and his answer surprised me.
• 24:40
  I asked him, if you were to die five years from now, where would you go?
• 24:43
  And he said, I would definitely go to heaven.
• 24:45
  And I remember asking him, what's the difference?
• 24:48
  And he stopped and he looked at me.
• 24:50
  He's like, I think I need to change my answer.
• 24:53
  I, I, I trust Jesus.
• 24:56
  And that began a process of us meeting every single Friday morning for two years, studying the Bible.
• 25:04
  We studied conversations with Jesus.
• 25:07
  We went through that, learned how to read the Bible, and then went through the rest of the book of John together.
• 25:12
  And then we started, how do we read the Bible?
• 25:14
  And who am I?
• 25:15
  A book by Jerry Bridges and a guy who his wife had been praying for him for 18 years.
• 25:22
  Wow.
• 25:23
  our urgency at year one would have been, you need to get married.
• 25:26
  How are you going to be a good dad?
• 25:27
  How are you going to do this?
• 25:28
  What's going to go on with this?
• 25:29
  But God's timeline for him was different.
• 25:32
  And when, when, when God began to work in his life, he came to the Lord and it was glorious.
• 25:37
  It was beautiful.
• 25:38
  He was then attending the church with his family.
• 25:41
  I remember the first time he used to stand in church and kind of watch worship.
• 25:45
  And I remember looking over my shoulder while we were all singing together.
• 25:49
  And for the first time I saw him singing.
• 25:52
  not just a little bit, like singing.
• 25:55
  He had trusted Jesus.
• 25:56
  Jesus was working in his heart and he just wanted to worship the Lord with his voice.
• 26:01
  Relationships are powerful and God's timeline for a person is often different than ours.
• 26:07
  And the Bible study and the exchange allows us to be able to rest in God's plan for a person and trust that the Holy Spirit is going to do that work.
• 26:17
  And he does.
• 26:17
  I will say this though.
• 26:19
  it takes work to get Bible studies planned.
• 26:22
  The first lesson is hard to get someone to come in for.
• 26:24
  And sometimes you have to plan and plan and plan.
• 26:28
  And I think that sense of urgency should be, hey, let's start doing this.
• 26:32
  Let's get going on this and continuing to be to go after people.
• 26:35
  Jesus was, He is the shepherd who left the 99 to go and get the one.
• 26:40
  And oftentimes we get involved in that.
• 26:42
  So I'm not saying you're lazy or you don't pursue people.
• 26:46
  But you let God do the work as the gospel is shared, you let God do the work and then try as hard as you can to be able to get the time to be able to let God do that work.
• 26:55
  So if somebody were to walk up to you in your congregation and say, know, pastor, I really don't, it's not easy for me to build relationships and I want to, I want to do evangelism.
• 27:08
  How, how would you help somebody be relational in their evangelism?
• 27:14
  How would you lay that out for somebody?
• 27:15
  How would you?
• 27:16
  I think those people who say it's not easy for me to be, to do relationships are actually going to be the best at building deep relationships.
• 27:24
  Because it's awkward and hard, they are so much more intentional and think through it.
• 27:30
  For a person like me who tends to be an extrovert, I'm everybody's friend.
• 27:34
  Like I get to spend time with you and for a person who's not, they have to intentionally go and say, what questions am I gonna ask them?
• 27:41
  And then listen and...
• 27:42
  They tend to be the best listeners.
• 27:44
  So one of the things I tell those people is you may feel like this is awkward at heart, but I guarantee you, you're going to be better at this than a lot of the extroverts who
• 27:53
  this is easy for.
• 27:54
  So that's one of the things that I tell them.
• 27:55
  The other is the Bible study makes it so easy.
• 27:58
  Like this isn't going to be driven by you having to figure out what questions do I ask?
• 28:02
  What do I do?
• 28:03
  It's so easy.
• 28:04
  You just grab that leader's guide and ask them, Hey, what did you think this week?
• 28:09
  And
• 28:09
  If they ask you a question that's over your pay grade or you don't know yet, say, Hey, I'm going to go talk to my pastor.
• 28:14
  I'm going to get an answer and we'll, and we'll come back and talk to you.
• 28:17
  You don't have to feel the urgency of I have every answer for you, but I do think anybody can do this.
• 28:23
  And one of the beautiful things is the Bible study guides that relationship.
• 28:28
  So take that step of faith, recognizing God wants me to do this and embrace the awkwardness.
• 28:33
  It might be awkward.
• 28:34
  It might be hard at first.
• 28:36
  and just trust that God will do the work because he promises he will.
• 28:40
  And I would just say too is, you you look at the great Shema Deuteronomy 6.4, love God and love others, but not as two separate things.
• 28:51
  If you love God, you will love others.
• 28:54
  And if you don't love others, might there be a problem with your relationship with God?
• 29:00
  I think that's very important base for us to operate from spiritually.
• 29:04
  That's what fuels my love for people.
• 29:06
  even if you are very loving and you have a deep desire to be relational, it can be a struggle.
• 29:12
  What would you say are the things you've learned in relation...
• 29:17
  You have a lot of relationships going on right now.
• 29:19
  I know you do right now in your ministry.
• 29:21
  There's a guy who just came to Christ and another police officer, I think, or you know, all these things going on.
• 29:27
  And so...
• 29:27
  What would you say are the marks of a relational person?
• 29:30
  I genuine care for that person.
• 29:35
  Not just trying to make conversation, but it's probably less talking and a lot more listening, like just and asking those questions.
• 29:44
  You when someone's you ask someone on Sunday, how you doing?
• 29:46
  They're always going to say, great, doing awesome.
• 29:49
  And looking back at him and saying, no, really doing.
• 29:52
  And then remembering maybe things that you talked about with the person the last time.
• 29:57
  So, hey, last week you mentioned this being a difficulty.
• 30:01
  How's the Lord working in that?
• 30:02
  How can I support you in that?
• 30:04
  How can I love you through this?
• 30:07
  And sometimes we don't have the answers.
• 30:08
  When somebody's struggling, I may not have the answer.
• 30:11
  And I can immediately then, and we do this all the time at our church, we stop, I put my hand on their shoulder, hey, can I pray for you?
• 30:18
  And just pray.
• 30:19
  Let's go to the Lord together.
• 30:20
  One of the best ways to develop...
• 30:23
  meaningful relationships is go to Jesus together.
• 30:26
  He's the one who created us for relationships.
• 30:29
  I'm gonna dive into deep relationships, dive into relationship together with him.
• 30:34
  I like praying together is one of those listening to people, remembering what they are doing.
• 30:39
  And if you're a person who doesn't remember, write it down.
• 30:42
  Like go ahead and take notes.
• 30:43
  This feels weird.
• 30:44
  I've got all this.
• 30:45
  We want to love people well.
• 30:46
  Do what it takes to love people well in that.
• 30:50
  You know, so genuine care, genuine interest, you're asking those questions.
• 30:54
  Pray, I mean, I've talked with atheists that won't listen to what I have to say, but if I ask them, how can I pray for you?
• 31:01
  They will let me pray for them.
• 31:03
  That's really a funny thing, but like, I don't know if you've experienced that.
• 31:07
  I don't know that I've, I can't remember an experience where a person said, you can't pray for me.
• 31:11
  Right.
• 31:12
  I think sometimes we're like, man, if I ask if I can pray for them, they're gonna say no, and I'm gonna offend them, and.
• 31:18
  The reality is most people are super happy for you to do that with them.
• 31:23
  And it develops a relationship.
• 31:24
  It's genuine care.
• 31:27
  Yup.
• 31:27
  Yup, it is.
• 31:28
  And so I love that.
• 31:31
  And by the way, I think that's a great practice for pastors is sometimes a pastor will be told, hey, pastor, can you pray for me?
• 31:36
  And we'll say, OK, I'll pray for you.
• 31:37
  And we go do it somewhere else.
• 31:39
  I think what can mean the most to that person right there is say, let me pray for you right now.
• 31:44
  we actually started something in our church and it's a little bit awkward.
• 31:47
  I know that and we're going to keep doing it.
• 31:50
  At the end of each of our services, we want, we've got, you know, a bunch of chairs that needed to be set up and a whole bunch of stuff that needs to be done.
• 31:58
  And so we want something to kind of slow people down and dig into relationship.
• 32:02
  And so we ask a question every week, something like, what are you most excited or anxious about in this next week?
• 32:10
  And then
• 32:11
  we encourage everyone to ask someone that question and then say, can I pray for you?
• 32:15
  God works in your life this week as you approach those circumstances.
• 32:19
  And God is using that to deepen relationships because it's not just how was your week, what went on, what are you excited about?
• 32:27
  It really is.
• 32:28
  Let's go talk to each other and then let's go to the throne of God together.
• 32:32
  It develops those relationships inside of the church and it's true outside of the church as well.
• 32:36
  When people share their real genuine felt needs and you don't know what to say, sometimes the best thing to say is, I pray for you right now?
• 32:44
  That's awesome.
• 32:45
  Well, Josh is one of our exchange trainers.
• 32:47
  I failed to mention this at the beginning of the video.
• 32:50
  So we've had, this is the fourth episode where we've had exchange trainers come in and get to meet you guys and know you a little bit.
• 32:57
  I would just encourage you guys, if you're in the Denver area,
• 33:00
  and your church needs an infusion of some relational evangelism, relational culture in your church.
• 33:07
  I know that Denver, I was told this a while back, I visited Will Sen's church.
• 33:11
  One of the guys there said, Denver's cold, but not just cold weather-wise.
• 33:16
  It can be very cold relationally.
• 33:19
  And so one of the things I know it's critical for churches in the West is that relationship.
• 33:25
  It can be a very hard thing though.
• 33:27
  and Josh, I mean there's nobody else that comes to my mind who would be somebody phenomenal to bring in and talk about relationships.
• 33:33
  You can see from the podcast just hearing him, he's fought back tears several times because he just deeply loves.
• 33:40
  It's a genetic issue.
• 33:42
  Now I think it's his heart.
• 33:43
  He loves people and I love that about him.
• 33:46
  It's what encourages me about him and so I'm just glad to meet a pastor like that.
• 33:51
  Josh, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
• 33:53
  Thank you so much for your time and letting us get to know you today.
• 33:56
  And thank you guys who are listening.
• 33:58
  If you're listening for the first time, share this with somebody who would benefit from it.
• 34:04
  if you haven't subscribed yet, we'd love for you to hit that subscribe button.
• 34:07
  It really helps our podcast out to get the word out there about us.
• 34:10
  And so Josh, thanks man.
• 34:11
  And thank you audience.
• 34:13
  We love you guys.
• 34:14
  We will see you next week.