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From FIFO to Financial Freedom: Chris’ $5 Million Property Strategy · The Follio Property Podcast

• 0:00
  When did property investment come into your head? Obviously I tried stocks, shares, crypto, lost plenty of money in crypto. You've got a $5 million portfolio, 31 been in the mines for five years. We'll talk through your strategy. Buying in your backyard is 100% never always the best option. And when you're looking at portfolios, what are the biggest mistakes you're seeing? What are the biggest opportunities you're seeing?
• 0:18
  I've missed a cycle there. I wanted to buy here. I've missed a cycle here. What sort of mindset do you think they need to have to kind of take that next step and potentially get off the FIFO work? Open my eyes to, you know, obviously interstate investing. You've got two regional assets in the portfolio. How do you go from two to five? Most years I try and go for a two to six to eight month holidays. Hasn't all the time yet.
• 0:42
  You're listening to the Folio Property Podcast. I'm Rhys Bettle and I'm here each week with my co-host, Lachlan De La Hunty. If you're enjoying the podcast, do us a favor, hit like, hit subscribe.
• 0:55
  Leave us a comment so we can grow this channel. Welcome, we've got a special guest today. We do. It's a good story, this one. It's a very good story. So we're joined by someone who proves you can build serious wealth while still working in FIFO. Chris has built a $5 million property portfolio while still working in the mines. And after working with us at Folio, we were so impressed with his knowledge that we actually ended up offering him a job. Welcome, Chris. Boys, how's it going?
• 1:23
  What an introduction. A very good introduction. But we've been wanting to get you on for a while, even before we got you into the business because we get a lot of clients. Similar situations. Very similar situations. And-
• 1:35
  Lachlan and myself aren't the FIFO type. So we hear a lot of stories through mates or family about, you know, there seems to be two types of FIFO worker, the ones that really are all about investing, whether that's crypto, property, any sort of investment strategy, all the other ones just spend all their money on the toys. So I've been really excited to get you and Chris. And is that the case, mate? Being what I hear that the FIFO scene, it's almost like there's so much time and money that –
• 2:02
  I suppose that's all you're doing. You're working 15 hour days, 16 hour days. So everyone's just trying to find an edge, whether it is cryptos, property, shares, latest investments. Is that sort of the environment that the FIFO lifestyle is? Yeah. Yeah. I guess you kind of got your two boys up there, you know, or girls as well. Like you've kind of got the ones that are there to build wealth and get out as quick as they can because they hate the place. And then you got the
• 2:26
  Kind of, it's their lifestyle, isn't it? Like they're up there drinking Pierce every night. They're up there, you know, just pissing all their money away on R&Rs. And do those guys love it though? Or girls love it? Or do they just love the money and the lifestyle, but they still kind of want to get out? Because that's the sentiment we always hear. Everyone just wants to go up there, earn their money and get out eventually.
• 2:47
  I think, yeah, don't get me wrong. I've definitely met boys that profit up there and they couldn't think anything better. But look, I reckon 80% of the sentiment up there, guys don't want to be up there. You're away from friends, family, food shit, you know, dongers. You know, it's not a lifestyle you want to be living long term. Like the cash is good. You know why it's there. But like, yeah, you need that exit plan for sure.
• 3:11
  So the majority of clients that I come across, they get to us pretty late in the piece and they've taken on a lot of debt. But we always talk about on the podcast, good debt versus bad debt. And that bad debt typically equates to having a couple of utes, jet ski, a boat, some credit card debt, some big expensive holidays. And maybe, maybe if they're lucky, they've invested in a property, but they're typically overcapitalized into the wrong asset, something that's really flashy, off-plan apartments.
• 3:40
  or they've been sucked into an investment scheme. Would that be a fair assessment of a lot of your colleagues?
• 3:46
  Yeah, yeah. Don't get me wrong. The 79 Land Cruises is definitely the flavour of the month still for a lot of boys up there. You know, when these boys are putting, you know, 150 grand into a car and, you know, and they've got nothing else but the car. That's, you know, obviously a big issue with a lot of the boys up there. Consumer debt's obviously definitely one. But then obviously you also got those guys that are just too scared to take on anything. They're...
• 4:11
  got, you know, 100, 200 grand cash in the bank. And, you know, they've worked so hard to get it, they're too scared to actually do anything with it. Interesting. They're working so hard for the dollars that they actually are, you know, far too conservative on the other extreme of the equation. Yeah, yeah. Like just on the weekend, I was having a chat with one of my mates and that was exactly his sentiment. He's, you know, been working the mines for a few years now, got, you know, over 100 grand sitting there and he just doesn't actually know where to go and where to take action.
• 4:39
  um, you know, to invest that money. And it was kind of just too scared to actually take that step because you've worked so hard. The last thing you want to do is lose it and then have to go back and, you know, do another two years in the mines to, to get that money. Interesting. So Chris, you've got a $5 million portfolio, just over $2 million of that's in equity. So that's really the value of the portfolio. How old are you? I just gone 31. 31, been in the mines for five years.
• 5:05
  We'll talk through your strategy, but when you went into the mines, was that the plan? Let's do five years to get out? Yeah. Why are you different? It was definitely, look, I think most people's plan, they've got the five-year plan. Like everyone talks about the five-year plan. You get a lot of guys that talk about the, I'm on my third five-year plan. Obviously...
• 5:25
  Yeah, it happens a lot. Mine was, you know, I was adamant that I was sticking to that five-year plan. Yeah, you were sticking to that five-year plan. And you're almost at the conclusion of those five years, right? And with $2 million of equity, that plan seemed to have come together quite well.
• 5:39
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. Like, obviously, it didn't come easy. There was obviously a lot of hard nights researching, doing my research, working out where to be buying, how to buy, doing different courses. I've done quite a lot of different courses, spending money on education. It was obviously a big one for me.
• 5:58
  um and and yeah just kind of getting the right team around me so to guide me and make sure i took the right steps and not you know end up losing that money that i've worked so hard for and get that money really working for me that's a big one education we talk about all the time and people listening to the podcast are doing exactly that right trying to upstool their knowledge base educating themselves so they don't make mistakes that either we've made in our personal journey or what we've seen from clients so i think that's probably understated
• 6:23
  And was that always the plan? So you mentioned the five-year plan. Was that purely from... When did property investment come into your head? Was it the plan just to earn the money? Or was it the plan to earn the money to then leverage that into, whether it was property, shares, crypto? It was always... I guess it was the fast-track plan. So obviously, being an electrician, you can earn still good money in the city. There's no doubt about it. But you can kind of earn...
• 6:49
  double the average income FIFO. So for me in my head, I was like, that means I can get to where I want to be double as fast. Like no one wants to work forever. Me, especially, you know, I was always want to be like retired by 40 or at least work optional by 40. That was always the goal. And for me, it's,
• 7:07
  property seemed like the safest bet. You know, it was a proven product. It's been around for, you know, bricks and mortar. You hear it all the time. And, you know, the research and that's there to back that for me. So back, you know, I guess early days was when I realised, you know, property investing was probably what resonated the most with me. Obviously, I'd tried stocks, shares, crypto, lost plenty of money in crypto. I love it. Yeah.
• 7:32
  And yeah, property was the one that obviously kept shining through and where I kept making my money. And obviously the leverage aspect of property was one of the biggest things for me. You know, you can really propel yourself forward. Did you have a mentor? Like, how did you get into it? Was it someone on the mines? Was it yourself going down YouTube rabbit holes or forums, I guess, five years ago? Yeah.
• 7:53
  Well, believe it or not, it was mainly podcasts. Like I've been a huge advocate and here I am now on my butt. Big advocate for podcasts, listened to so many podcasts, read a lot of books. Obviously, you know, like Robert Kiyosaki, Rich Dad, Poor Dad. That was a real, you know, rocket in my head where I was like, oh, wow, that actually makes a lot of sense. Parents weren't really into investing too much. They were very conservative. They obviously taught me how to save. Yeah.
• 8:19
  which was which is a big part of it huge part huge part yeah understanding the value of money is actually one of the most important things when building a portfolio
• 8:26
  Yep, 100%. And that kind of really got me to that next stage of where I could be like, okay, now what do I need to do to double that wealth and build on what I've already got? Leverage. Exactly. Leverage. Do they give you any education like through the companies you've worked for in the mines? They're obviously a big push on mental health, right? Like they've seen swings change in the last generation where the shorter swings really trying to encourage people to protect their mental health.
• 8:55
  Obviously, people are earning a shitload more money than what they would be earning in the city. Is there any education up there on financial? Literature. Yeah, financial literature. Not that I'm aware of. I haven't really seen or come across it. It's kind of up to you to what you spend your money on. And I guess for a company's point of view, why would they want you to?
• 9:13
  you know not work and make your money work yeah i'd rather you be a slave to the slave to the income right that's that's correct yep yeah so i i don't actually know why they would give you any information but it would be good for a lot of guys you know because that's a huge part is understanding what to spend your money on what not to spend your money on and the rumor mill that it would be i expect everyone's chasing a quick win right
• 9:36
  Yeah. That's why obviously, yeah, I guess when 2022, when crypto was going through the roof, every man his dog in the crib room, that's all they were talking about. Everyone had a tip. Yeah. Everyone had the hot tip. And yeah, so many people were refinancing houses and stuff just to put into crypto, which was crazy. Yeah.
• 9:52
  I'm sure we're going to get around to the strategy and that's what our listeners want to hear is obviously the journey, which I'm sure we'll touch on, but also the strategy. What got you to that point and then what the strategy is now. Obviously, you come through the podcast and come into our business to do a client meeting with myself, what is it, 12 months ago? Yeah, it's probably nearly dead on 12 months. Yeah, November 24th.
• 10:19
  Yeah. And then obviously in reviewing that portfolio, a lot of regional exposure and that was obvious in the medium was, you know, your initial strategy was very much a capital growth, but with very much a focus towards cashflow and that led you to the sort of regional place. Talk us through that. Yeah. So obviously earlier on in my journey, I realized, you know, before I kind of started mining, I wasn't on, you know, a huge wage. What were you on when you bought your first property?
• 10:47
  Oh, shit, I was an apprentice second year. Like 60, 70 grand a year, maybe. And what did you buy? Bought a house and land package in Geelong. Was my first one, yeah. Back then you could build. You had your time again?
• 11:01
  Wouldn't be that play, no. No, it's good though. That's what we learned though. But the hardest thing to do is often that first step. Mine was a house and land package in Horsham, which is worse than Geelong. So we've all made mistakes. So that's a 60K house and land package. Fortunately, and this is like investors at the moment, even if you buy the wrong assets, if you buy the wrong assets at the right time in the right macro market, it will cover the cracks. And fortunately that was 2015. Geelong was pretty much on the brink of a boom. And in the next three years we saw what, 15%, 20%.
• 11:31
  2015, 15% growth, 16, 20% growth, 17, 15% growth. So it probably sort of washed over any sort of micro details of the asset quality.
• 11:41
  Correct. Yeah. Like, to be honest, it was, it worked out quite well in the end. Really set me up for that next purchase. And at the time I thought I was the man and, you know, I'd pretty much- Can't do anything wrong. Yeah. And I was like, I'm going to do that exact same strategy again. And for the next purchase, I was, I'd finished my apprenticeship and was going to go overseas for a while. And I thought, what better way than buying a plot of land? Yeah.
• 12:05
  And it'll title in a year's time when I come back. I'll make some money. Yeah. So that's exactly what it is. So again, pretty much another house and land type scenario. So where was this purchase? Ballarat. Yep. Okay. Another regional. Yep. Did the exact same play. Put a 10 grand deposit down before I left.
• 12:22
  come back amidst of COVID. So this was obviously in 2019. And by the time that titled, it had also done a massive run. So I thought again, oh, wow, this is easy. How easy is this? Regional Victoria can't miss particularly late 2000s, like that 2015 to 18 period. Yep, yep. And I was like, God, this is too easy. Sign a bit of paper, make money. Like, this is the best. What drew you to that area? Like, are you local to those, you know?
• 12:51
  Yeah, so at the time, I did my apprenticeship down in Geelong. So yeah, back then, pretty much...
• 12:58
  been on apprenticeship wages. I could only buy my first just pretty much by the skin of my teeth, got that property through the original deal. And then obviously was stuck for ages. So yeah, obviously as your apprenticeship goes along, save more money. And then, yeah, I wanted to go traveling and live overseas for a year. So I thought I want to still have exposure. And Ballarat was at the time from the research I'd been doing it,
• 13:27
  it was a pretty good market to kind of buy and Geelong still would have been good, but I'd kind of been priced out of Geelong and I wanted to diverse. I was, you know, still kind of aware of, you know, moving stuff around and having a bit of diversification in the portfolio. So Ballarat was for me the next easy step I had, you know, I was familiar to you and that's why I ended up going there.
• 13:48
  Yeah, brilliant. And so at this point in time, you've got two regional assets in the portfolio. How do you go from two to five and what changed in your approach? Because obviously, regional house and land packages, certainly probably not something we would advise our clients to invest in. Although, like I said, if you time the market, it can sort of, I guess, band-aid a lot of not always the best quality assets. Obviously, then you started to get more quality, more land value assets in your portfolio. What was the pivot there and where did
• 14:17
  Really the biggest change for me then was, so by then I'd come back, I built my property in Ballarat once I'd come back from my holiday and I realised I probably could have done better, but I realised I can't just keep throwing darts at a dartboard and hoping and trying to win. So from there, that's when I really ran down the rabbit hole of education.
• 14:41
  And that's pretty much all I did was, you know, when I went into the mines and also talking to different guys that were a bit further ahead of me in their journey, opened my eyes to, you know, obviously interstate investing. Yep. And then, yeah, that brought me to Brisbane at the time in 2022 was my next purchase. So now you sort of pivoted from a regional cash flow play to more of, okay, let's get some capital incidental exposure, more blue chip assets into the portfolio to balance it.
• 15:11
  Correct. Yeah. In my head, that was kind of what I was trying to achieve. I was on a bit better wage then too. So that was kind of the play I went for was, yeah, that drove me to Brisbane and bought a, it was a townhouse there, three by two, purchased that for $2.90. So it wasn't, again, wasn't a huge purchase for me. It was a more yield and growth play.
• 15:36
  But that now just got revalued at $650. So it's done exceptionally well as well over that time. And then shortly after, you know, two months after that purchase, I purchased one in Wembley in Perth. Yep. Another capital city.
• 15:52
  Yep. Again, that was the play we were going for. And just for listeners, everyone's like, well, how does this guy just keep forking out cash? You're buying three properties in six months. Assuming you're re-leveraging, refinancing, using the equity, pull that equity out, reinvest that into the next asset. And that's the power of building a portfolio. It's not saving it for a deposit, spending it, working on for another two years, saving for deposit and spending it. It's refinance using the equity to reinvest.
• 16:22
  That's correct. Yeah. And obviously Geelong being, you know, I'd nearly owned that for, what was that? Eight years at that stage. It had fruited quite well, had quite a lot of equity in that. And then Ballarat being after the COVID boom and that had quite a lot of equity in both those properties. So by refinancing them, withdrawing a bit of equity and then going into those two markets for 2022, that's how I managed to purchase both those properties. Did you live in any of these or are you purely reinvesting this whole thing?
• 16:49
  Rent vesting the whole time. So from like the research and everything I'd done, and obviously because I love traveling, I was huge, love my holidays. Most years I try and go for two to six to eight month holidays. Like, yeah. How's it all to say, yeah? No, not anymore, not anymore. But yeah, so I was obviously, love my travel. So everything, that's why obviously the yield play was so big for me and rent vesting suited me to a T because, yeah,
• 17:18
  Obviously, as you know, you get primary owner, like occupied debt, it just ruins your capacity, like ruins that. Ability to borrow. Yeah. And at what point, we'll keep going on with the portfolio, but at what point did you enter the mines? Like the first one you're an apprentice, which is a cracking job to get on the property ladder on that sort of income. When did you enter the mines in that property journey? At what property did you purchase once you started earning that FIFO money?
• 17:46
  So from number property three was when I was in the mines. Yeah. So 20, end of 2020, I come over and then 2021, I pretty much just worked. I was trying to do, you know, research, COVID. It was just a difficult kind of time for everyone there. So pretty much all I did in 2021 was work. And then 2022, I had all this money sitting there.
• 18:08
  Understood, you know, equity, equity as well. Yeah. And cash, like I had a lot of cash because I just worked a full year. Like you couldn't travel that year. It was the best year I've had working. And yeah, the big thing for me was obviously with all the research and stuff you do comes, you understand how money is, how money is just debased. And that just scared me no end. So obviously. Good regard.
• 18:31
  Well, in regard of inflation. Yep. So obviously that was where I went down that rabbit hole of understanding currency and how our money is just printed. And then it devalues every year after that. Yep. And you need assets over cash in your account. Like cash is just getting devalued. Yep. And debased. And that...
• 18:51
  Is that a common conversation with your mates on the mining sites? It's pretty in-depth. But you're right. That's why we invest in real estate because once your money's printed, it does. It loses its value. That's exactly what it does. It's definitely not a common conversation. Obviously, you try and...
• 19:09
  Is that the conversation you had with your mate last week that he's got 100K in cash sitting there? Yeah, you're trying to explain it to people. I think a lot of people don't want to believe that their money is just getting, you know, inflation's a silent tax, isn't it? It is. And a lot of people don't probably realise that, yeah, cash in your account is just dead and you're never going to save your way to retirement. And I guess that 2021 was a really big year for me in understanding, you know, if you didn't really wake up during COVID, you probably weren't going to wake up with what's going on in the world. And assets are...
• 19:39
  kind of the way the average person can get their way out of...
• 19:42
  The grind. The grind. The nine to five, or in your case, the swing, the two and twos or the four and twos, the mining wages. Interesting. So, okay, then we met 12 months ago and obviously when we caught up, my biggest concern was exposure to regional plays and hence the movement towards capital cities, which is a great diversification play, not only from a location point of view, but asset quality play. As we're here in late 2025, what's the strategy for you next? Yeah.
• 20:11
  So now the strategy would be moving forward going into commercial. That would be kind of the play now. I want a bit more... Passive income. Passive income. Yep. A different exposure to a different asset too. So now I've got over seven residential properties. So we'll look at selling down a couple of them as well next year, have a capital gain event next financial year.
• 20:39
  and go into, you know, start selling down a little bit, go into that income producing asset now. And then we can then look at reinvesting back into residential real estate to build up again.
• 20:54
  which is this is a common occurrence with many of our clients. And I'm sure you're seeing it now, Chris, as you're an advisor within our business, is that that is almost a textbook play if you look at a five-year strategy, very much geared towards capital growth in the early phase. And typically, it has to involve some cash flow. You talked about it when you're on lower wage. You need to have that cash flow. You build that asset base. You recycle that through residential property. Then once you build an asset base and you've hit that sort of $2 million mark, being able to sell down...
• 21:23
  a couple of those assets, realize a gain, and then reinvest that into the cash flow. That's going to get you to that, firstly, off the FIFO lifestyle, but secondly, get you to that retirement goal of 40 where you've got the opportunity not to have to work building towards that $150,000 to $200,000 income or passive income from your property portfolio.
• 21:42
  Correct. Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I've done. And that's how, you know, from obviously earlier on, I was kind of fumbling around a bit. But once I kind of got that education and understood how to build that portfolio, that's the exact route I've gone.
• 21:56
  Would you say, and in reflection, it's always good in reflection, you were a proximity investor. What I mean by that, you invested in your backyard because that's what you're familiar with. Yep. If you had made those purchases in Victoria in 2022, your portfolio would look very different, obviously today. Um, and now being an advisor and seeing different portfolios, what
• 22:17
  what's probably the thing that surprised you or what have you seen and what would you do differently? Could you could argue not to discredit you that you fluke the market, but that in your early phase, but then you educated yourself to say, okay, and you had enough, I guess you're, you're humble enough to identify that you needed to learn more about cycles, about markets, macro, micro, because you,
• 22:39
  First one might have been lucky. Second one, which is, I could have been really lucky. I don't want to flick the third. Yeah. So talk to me about that, what you're seeing as an advisor, what you see with investors, and what you're seeing in yourself.
• 22:52
  I guess it's just getting comfortable with there's always a market in Australia that's doing well and educating yourself that buying in your backyard is 100% never always the best option. So just taking that non-biased opinion on, all right, where in Australia right now is growing the most and where in Australia should I be deploying? You only get, I know you've talked about it before, you only get so much borrowing power.
• 23:17
  And you really want to deploy that borrow and power the best possible way you can to leverage it and get the biggest possible return from that. And as now in your advisor capacity, what are you seeing when you're looking at portfolios? What are the biggest mistakes you're seeing? What are the biggest opportunities you're seeing? Because obviously you're servicing people very similar to yourself that have been in the mining space. What's the biggest misconceptions or the biggest opportunities? Yeah.
• 23:43
  So I guess the biggest one is people that don't want to leave their backyard. And they've already, because they've already done well. So they've bought, say they bought...
• 23:51
  you know, Perth, for example, and they bought there five, six years ago down in Rockingham. Yep. So they bought that, they've done exceptionally well, and they're just like, I don't want to leave Perth. Like, I've done so well here. It's humming, everyone's still buying, everyone's making money. It can only go up, let's buy another three in Rockingham. Yeah. And that's a massive one where you're trying to change people's mindset in like,
• 24:15
  Okay, you've done well, you have lucked out, but at the same time, you've just timed that market perfectly. You happened to be in Rockingham when it was going up. DeLong 2015. Exactly. And when you start saying that that's what you've done and call it luck, call it whatever...
• 24:33
  If you had bought seven properties in Geelong, it might've been a little bit of a different story over the next seven years, right? Yeah, correct. And seeing and getting, you know, people to understand that and just changing their mind shift there is probably a big one for me at the moment when I'm taking on calls and stuff. But yeah, most people kind of come around when you can show them,
• 24:51
  bit of data and why. And the evidence that backs it, right? Because data is what underpins decision-making. Yep. And I think that's the problem. People have recency bias. And it just, if you want to believe something at the moment, very easy to believe, right? The media is right behind this surge in national house prices. Just last month, October, the largest monthly gain that we've seen since 2023, right?
• 25:13
  So there's a lot of momentum and you're right. If you've made money in a certain market, it's hard to look outside that. But diversification has worked so well for you and probably what's underpinned your portfolio, would you say? Yeah, for sure. And that diversification is really exactly what's underpinned. If you actually look at each play that I've kind of made, it's been at that upswing of those cycles, you know. So whether it was Geelong, Ballarat, regional Queensland, Brisbane, Perth,
• 25:42
  When you look at when I bought, it was during that upswing. So you're not sitting there waiting for equity. The moment it's settling, that property settling, you're getting that money. And you can recycle it. And you can recycle it. Within 12 months, you go on again and you can just keep rinsing, repeating, and you can just chase the markets all around Australia. And it's always going to be like that.
• 26:02
  What would be cool to kind of wrap up with your story as well, especially on that FIFO, any FIFO workers out there listening, what sort of mindset do you think they need to have to kind of take that next step and start leveraging that income that they're earning and get a bit of a kickstart to potentially get off the FIFO work? It's probably, I guess, the biggest one is just taking action. Stop. Stop.
• 26:29
  You know, a lot of guys out there have been talking about it for six, 12 months. Oh, yeah, I wanted to buy Perth. I've missed the cycle there. Oh, I wanted to buy here. I've missed the cycle here. Like, it's just educate yourself, take action, and just back yourself. Like, at the end of the day, you're never going to get it 100% right. And that's really the biggest thing is just...
• 26:48
  If you're sitting there procrastinating on where should I be buying or what should I be doing, like back yourself with the research you've done and then just take action and go forward. Yeah. And what about goals? Like you're looking to exit now after a successful five-year stint there. Was that the goal to exit at a certain point or do you re-evaluate that every year? It was obviously always re-evaluating your goals and what you're trying to achieve. But like-
• 27:17
  I don't know if I speak for most people working FIFO, I hate it up there. Like it's not fun at all. Like you're there for the money and that's it. Like it sucks. You're away from friends, family, like all those type of things. And, and yeah, so it was really the five year goal and, you know, sticking to it. I, you know, pretty much have made it in five years. Like it was 2022, sorry, 2020, I started in December and it's 2025, December now. And I'm pretty much, yeah, on the, on the way out.
• 27:45
  I guess it's good to see someone actually go through that journey and probably refreshing for a lot of people listening to it in the same boat. You're nailed on the head. Inaction is what cripples most people's ability to either get into the market, to buy a property, and you're right, it's always recency bias. In Perth, for instance, 2018, you couldn't make money in the Perth market.
• 28:07
  2019 was reinforced because 18 was a shocking year that certainly can't make money in property, especially in Perth. 2020 hits COVID, the world's going to fall apart. By 2022, it was overheated. The market had already done too much growth. By 2024, it was overheated. And here we are in 2025, and it's still running. So I think people will naturally always try to find to not invest.
• 28:29
  But I think you also said it, education gives you that confidence to make decisions. And that decision gets you ahead like you've done. So well done, Chris. It's pretty impressive to see what you've been able to achieve in such a short amount of time. Thank you. Thanks for joining us, Chris. You've been listening to the Folio Property Podcast.