Latest / Becoming Flame: Where Sensuality, Sovereignty, and Sacred Power Ignite / Repair After Betrayal: Rebuilding Trust, Intimacy, and Self With Joanna Kristensen
Transcript
- Kait Tregenza: Welcome Joanna, Joasia to the podcast, a kindred Polish spirit the podcast with me today. I am so, I don't what, I don't want to say I'm excited for this conversation, but I feel that this conversation is going to be deeply healing for not only me and you hopefully, but for anyone listening and dropping in, because we've decided to talk about something that can be really hard. We've decided to talk about repair. This episode of Becoming Flame is brought to you by Phenxx. Phenxx is a ritual luxury house devoted to erotic feminine embodiment. We create alchemical intimacy oils and functional fragrances infused with spagyric botanicals designed to soften the nervous system, open the body, and awaken life force vitality. Our formulations are crafted as tools of self-initiation. They are not cosmetic. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah Yes. Kait Tregenza: after betrayal. They are not decorative. They are designed to be felt. They are designed to shift. Each oil facilitates a cellular shift into relaxation and receptivity, activating and opening up an archetypal femininity that your body knows and is yearning to step into. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah, and the betrayal itself, because it's hard to separate it. Kait Tregenza: and the betrayal itself. Yeah, think I really connected with the way that you chose face head on because I think from what I'm building and where I'm at in my life, are that I've realized that very few people actually have. And even if I have skills, improve my skills at repairing. These oils allow the body to open safely into sensual intelligence, magnetism and creative power. They open the libido and open creative sexual energy. When the body is safe, it softens. When it softens, it receives. When it receives, it creates. And when it creates, the entire world shifts. relationship after rupture of any kind. And so I'm really interested to get into that with you. So I my first question to you is what is experience betrayal and why did you want to have this conversation with me? Joanna Kristensen: Okay, thank you. First of all, thank you for having me Kait on your podcast. yes, why I wanted to have this conversation with you. First of all, I think because I to episode about betrayal and this kind of inspired me to talk about my story from the perspective of a couple and how Kait Tregenza: We believe that women who sit deeply in their bodies, in their erotic intelligence and sovereignty, become powerful creators of their lives and the environments around them. Our products are initiations into that coherence. Luxury in experience. Devotional in use. Transformational in effect. Get yours now at phenxx.com That's P-H-E-N. Hmm. Joanna Kristensen: couples can go through it because my experience is that I have been betrayed. husband was cheating on me. And took, I think it was for three or four years, the affair going on. So it was pretty long time. It wasn't a one night stand. And we got this okay, there is this rupture. Kait Tregenza: xx.com Welcome back to Becoming Flame. This is a space where we don't bypass the hard things. We go into them. We take the experiences that crack us open, that we feel like we might die from, that we think we'll never recover from, that really change us as a person, as a being. And we look at them. We actually look at them, at what they are here to show us. Joanna Kristensen: So what are going to do now? my is that basically I already had for a while, but I didn't have proof. But when I finally it, I confronted him and he said, just ignore Kait Tregenza: Hmm. what they are here to transform and what they are asking us to become. Today's conversation is one of those. It's a really challenging topic that's met with grace, dignity and open-mindedness. We're going into betrayal, into rupture, into the question that sits underneath all of Joanna Kristensen: That was, you know, was so cool cold and no remorse. this was so, so hurtful. for the first. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: time, I really didn't know to do, what to do with it. What is the decision? First, you are thinking, okay, so what now? Should I stay? Should I go? And for also the was very difficult because I had a small baby and I was maternity leave. So I couldn't just think about myself, but I also had to think about my daughter and the ramification of my decision. Kait Tregenza: these relationships that get marked by infidelity, by cheating, by betrayal, by lying, by all of these kinds of things that we think that we might not be able to come back from. And what's underneath all of that is can this be capable of rebuilding after it breaks? ⁓ if so, if there's enough foundation there, Joanna Kristensen: I decided to. Kait Tregenza: What does that actually require of you and of the other person? So Joanna Kristensen is joining me for this conversation. She is a relationship and intimacy coach who works with couples navigating disconnection, mismatch in desire, breakdowns in communication, the aftermath of infidelity. But I think what makes her work powerful and what you're going to hear about in this conversation today ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: to think about it, to make ⁓ quick decisions. This was something what was ⁓ the told me. And basically I've learned and there is amazing tools given or a framework by Dr. Tammy Nelson, ⁓ who is a sex and therapist and does a lot of work around fidelity. And she talks about Kait Tregenza: is that this is not something that she studied. It is something that she has lived and then pursued it as a career, as a shift in what she wants to gift to the world because she has been through so many of the major disconnection points ⁓ in her marriage. So Joanna went through long-term betrayal in her own marriage during early motherhood Joanna Kristensen: free phases of after betrayal. And seems that I was doing all of it, but know, instant, like by the instinct, just by intuition. I really wish I knew it back then when this was happening, because I felt so lonely, so alone in this situation. couldn't, you know... Kait Tregenza: And instead of walking away, she actually chose to go into the process of repair. She did that without really knowing what that was just by following her own intuitive guidance. And what she shares today comes from that lived experience, from the decision she had to make when everything felt uncertain, when the work she now does is about helping other couples, other women rebuild Joanna Kristensen: call my mom because she already passed away. So she was always my to go. I had friends, as far as friends, want best for you and they can advise you. this is what I also learned. You ⁓ need ⁓ listen your intuition. because it's the only person who knows what is best for you, it's you. And this is also a lesson which I... Kait Tregenza: person. the connection, the trust and the intimacy, but also a new vision of life together. This conversation is not about telling you what you should do. That's what I really love about Joanna and the way that she approaches it. For her, it is just about opening up what is possible. Can we look at what is possible when something breaks and really be real about what it... Joanna Kristensen: which I learned, took me a to decide what to And we went through a moment he wanted, he asked me he would like to have an open relationship so he can continue his affair. And this is the when can say it was kind of a self betrayal because I agreed to it. Kait Tregenza: actually takes to move through that rather than abandon runaway ghost or stay in our victim story, stay in our anger, stay in our hate. You know, this deep grief, this woe is me because that's so easy. But no matter what kind of person you are, knowing that you have repaired a relationship, Joanna Kristensen: but I didn't want it. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: And this was really, was really a tough decision and very difficult period, but I needed this time. I needed this time to figure out what to do next. And to cut story short, he noticed that I... Sorry, No, when he... I didn't want to take this open relationship. I didn't know how to approach this. But when finally I decided, okay, I will give it a go. And when he realized that I took it seriously... Kait Tregenza: Yeah. even if you choose not to stay in that relationship is so powerful is so empowering and it transforms you into a much ⁓ a much different person because you know what you're capable of. So without further ado, let us welcome Joanna to the podcast. Let's get into this conversation. It's Mm. Joanna Kristensen: Then everything changed. Because before when I asked him, ⁓ if you want to continue our relationship, have two conditions. One, you finish the relationship, you finish the and we'll to therapy. And he didn't want any of it. But then he agreed to it. And then for the first time I saw that he is putting our relationship over the affair. and he was ready to commit. And then we started to work on our relationship and this was really, really process. Kait Tregenza: Okay, so when you said commit to an open relationship and then he changed, did that mean? That you started pursuing outside interests and he didn't like that? Joanna Kristensen: Yes, I think he didn't think that I will go for it. Probably there was this thinking that she will not do it. And then when he saw that I'm doing it and he felt what I felt when he was meeting her, when he was seeing her, then the dynamic changed. Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Mm-hmm. So you had a small baby. You found out your husband was having an affair. How long had you been married at that point? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. I need to, I need to count. It was like seven, eight years or maybe more. Kait Tregenza: Okay, so it wasn't like you just met. Okay. Was it the first time? Joanna Kristensen: No, no, no. As far as I know, yes. Kait Tregenza: Okay, so let's assume that's true. It's the first time. you think that this was triggered by ⁓ sense of loss ⁓ the relationship between the two of you with your daughter coming into the mix? Is that the change or something else? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Well, there was, I think, a lot of factors and this is what I also learned in time that infidelity is seldom about sex. It's more about the disconnection, about what's going on in the relationship when people start to live separate lives. And this is what happened to us. I was working a lot at the time. Kait Tregenza: Mm-hmm. Joanna Kristensen: After my maternity leave, and this was also before, sorry, before my maternity leave, I was working a lot. So this disconnection has already started. Then my mom was dying. I completely shut him down. So he was, know, like suddenly we were living completely separate lives. what I see is that, you know, Of course, the decision about having an affair, it was his and his alone. But what brought us to this situation, we're both responsible for Kait Tregenza: Yeah. I'm going to get, come back to that, but I'm going to first get all the facts of the situation. So how old was your daughter when you found out about the affair? Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Yeah. I think she was maybe one and half year old, something like that. Kait Tregenza: Okay. All right. So you're not quite in the newborn phase, but you're not, you're, you're still in early motherhood, right? This is, you're going through identity change. You're learning these, all these new skills. You're still in your matricence journey. ⁓ then the moment that you need someone more than any other time in your life, your mother's already passed and he's, he, he's backup. Like you don't have. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Kait Tregenza: connection to your mother. it's like, well, my husband has to be there for me. And that's the moment that you find he's out, gone, he's absent. That's a huge pain. It's a different of pain than just we're two people who are living together, doing our lives together, and now he stepped out on me. It's like, this is the most vulnerable time of your life to this point, actually. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes, this was a very vulnerable time. then also, before we had our daughter, we struggled with infertility. I wanted... I also felt alone in this project because he had kids from previous marriage and he didn't want more. But I knew that I wanted to be a mother one time. And I was very clear about it from the beginning of our relationship. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Right. Right. Right. Joanna Kristensen: And this process of IVF first trying to get naturally, then ⁓ discovering it will not happen, monthly disappointments, on the floor. ⁓ it was really, tough. And then finally making the decision about this all took toll on and our relationship. Kait Tregenza: So is huge because is thank you for taking the time to set up the picture because I don't you are the only woman. I have a story that also ruptured around 18 months old of becoming a new mother dissimilar to you. It was a different kind of betrayal. wasn't another woman. For me, was addiction and violence and of these other things, which ⁓ feels almost... Joanna Kristensen: Ahahaha! Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: harder because it's like you can remove a third party, but you can't necessarily, you know, and so it's like these things that are out of your control, right? And you're like, I just, I just need to structure me while I become a mother, you know? And I, ⁓ I understand the situation that you're in. I want Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, yes. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: And I know that so many other women who are listening to this would as well, whether it's at 18 months or at 10 years old, it doesn't matter. It's that moment of like, into a contract with you. This is a life, you know, this is somebody's life. We created this together. Whether you wanted to or not is irrelevant because we have and she's here and, now you're not right. So the betrayal is deep. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes. Kait Tregenza: and it's and it's And that process, ⁓ you're also all of the things. Like, I mean, for me, I was breastfeeding. I don't know if you were, but that takes so much of your energy, right? So you're breastfeeding, you're giving any energy that have left is going into that child's deal. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes, exactly. Kait Tregenza: What therefore went into your mind in terms of yes, I am gonna work on this in the way that he wants me to, which is opening up the relationship. Because I can only imagine, and every other woman who's listening to this who's had a baby who takes themselves back to 18 months old. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Kait Tregenza: The last thing that you would want to be doing is putting on makeup at a nighttime and going out and going on dates. Like, how you get yourself to that, to that point? You're heartbroken. You're, you're so sad. You're probably enraged. You're exhausted because you're taking care of a toddler. Everything is probably empty in your body. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah, definitely. Kait Tregenza: How do you turn that all around and just go, yes, of course, let's open up our marriage and I'm gonna go start dating someone. Joanna Kristensen: You know, I, that's such a good question. I haven't thought about it a long time. I think it, it determination, you know, I think. Kait Tregenza: Mm-hmm. Joanna Kristensen: If I have to be honest with myself, I think it was that I want to prove it to you. I want you to feel how ⁓ felt. So ⁓ determination was strong. The logistic was, you know, I had to, you organize babysitter. I have to, you know, coordinate with him because he was also going out. So, you know, this Kait Tregenza: Wow. Joanna Kristensen: It was such a tricky game. and now I recall about it. And then, you know, first at finding somebody want to, you know, I want meet. This was, you know, ⁓ I haven't using any, you know, dating app or, you know, nothing because I was in a relationship ⁓ and I in from my perspective, I was in a monogamous relationship. So I didn't the So then, you know, getting on this horse, you can say, and yes, putting my makeup high heels, know, like myself up ⁓ look good when I didn't feel good, when I felt awful. then, you know, being with this other person, okay, it was kind of a distraction, but still, know, I was not fully in. If you know what I'm saying, I was not fully in. was... It was harsh, yes, it to work But I didn't know. ⁓ was just, I'm saying, I did everything what I did. It was just intuition. And I really wish I had somebody, you know, therapist, professional who could help me go through it. I didn't have that. Kait Tregenza: Okay. But at the same time, a therapist or a friend or even your mother, they don't know your life's purpose. They don't know you're truly here to alchemize and truly here to experience. And... We just cannot default to, know better because sometimes we truly do. And it just doesn't make sense to anybody. And that's okay sometimes, you know, like going and doing a completely irrational thing. It doesn't even make sense to you yet. And you're following your guidance and you're following your intuition as long as you are, right? As long as you know that that's what you are. But want to go back to this. There was the betrayal that you felt from him. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Yeah, because it does make sense to us. Yeah. Yes. Kait Tregenza: But then there's this next part, which is the betrayal you felt from yourself. Which one was harder to recover from? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. think the betrayal from him because you know over myself betrayal I had impression that I had a control over it somehow that my decisions they was you know I start I not to judge myself for what I was ⁓ for what I doing but as you said was irrational it was you know ⁓ from somebody from outside, it was completely, you know... But if you are not in this situation, when you are... Yes, when you are not in this particular situation, you really help anybody else because you don't fully understand it. That's for me it's so important to help couples who go this and want to rebuild, because I know. I don't know exactly, you know... day-year situation because the betrayal, as you say, be different. But I've been there. And this is lived experience. Kait Tregenza: So take us back to that. Yeah. Take us back to that moment where you were deciding to leave or to stay and work on this. Should I stay or should I go? You have a lot of reasons. You had a lot of reasons to walk out the door. And I think that, you know, in this modern age, just having a little baby doesn't always count for a big enough reason to stay. So Joanna Kristensen: Should I stay or should I go? Kait Tregenza: Why did you stay? Joanna Kristensen: Yeah, you can say that, you know, small baby isn't, know, reason it. But for me, it kind was because as I'm saying, I was on maternity leave. I didn't have my didn't. ⁓ I wasn't, you know, my salary. So I was financially dependent on him. And had to think, okay, so what How ⁓ am gonna manage with a small baby where I'm gonna live? How am gonna make us to go through the situation with as little as possible influence on her? Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: So of I loved him. This is a you know, which is very, crucial when you make this decision. Because ⁓ I still him and afterwards when talked, said that he also loves me, but he also was in love with her. the situation was not so clear. I think there was many reasons why I decided to stay. Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Joanna Kristensen: I think I decided to stay when I saw in him that he wants to really rebuild it. With men, I observe there is such a process when they, until they commit or make a decision in their head, their behavior is very... vague and you know there is avoidance there is something but when there is this switch and they make the decision they can go full in I think this is what I saw in my husband that he's ready to go full in and repair ⁓ because this was his colleague so he fired her immediately the next day and signed up for couples therapy. Kait Tregenza: You Joanna Kristensen: So his actions also showed me that he's committed. Before, he didn't want to do it. Kait Tregenza: And were you in your, and were you in your mind, I guess, were you ⁓ a point where you were also prepared that if he didn't commit to accepting that? Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: I was prepared to leave. Yes. Yes, I was prepared to leave. I was prepared to leave mentally. was also, you know, was preparing the ⁓ of kind of logistic. I also consulted lawyer. ⁓ So I had this was the time I took for myself when we're in this open relationship, which is which wasn't really open relationship. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Yep, to work it all out. Right. Okay. how many dates did it take for you to go on for this switch to happen? Was it just one or was it many? Joanna Kristensen: think it was a few. ⁓ was a few. Kait Tregenza: Okay. And I have like just my personal interest in indulgence and you don't have to answer this if it's too personal, but like. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Did you just get back in the car after these dates and just cry and cry and cry? Like, or were you, you would, you were fine and you'd come back home and you would feel good? Or like, how, how did you navigate that? Joanna Kristensen: No. know, I say that I felt good, but I felt okay. You know, because this is what I'm saying. You know, I had determination to prove or to show him how does it feel. And this was, I think this was my goal here. I know if this gonna work out. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Okay. Yeah, you weren't actually stepping out of the relationship. You were doing this for the purpose of saving your relationship. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah, now when you are saying that, yes. Yes. Kait Tregenza: Got it. Okay. So thou fast forward to what you do today. Now you are helping couples the same way that you helped yourself. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Kait Tregenza: What was the moment for you to say this is the word, like why this is so important? You know, is it just that feeling of isolation? Was there something deeper and a deeper calling for you? Like why has this turned into your passion now? You took your worst moment in your, in the world and now you relive it all the time. So I'm curious about. Joanna Kristensen: Okay, so I think the most important point, because journey to where I am now, it really I was working for 20 years. I was working in the corporation, an NGO, in public administration. And I knew this is not it. that is something out there for me. And I looking for it for just 20 years. And this happened to the betrayal. And when we are in the process of rebuilding, as I said, we went to therapy, couples therapy, then we went to individual therapies because of us had to work on different stuff. emotionally, we rebuilt it. I will never forget, but I forgave him. understood what happened and why it happened. And this was all thanks to therapy. But then still, what about sex? What about physical connection? And this was kind of lacking there. Not we didn't have sex, but it, ⁓ you it wasn't... Kait Tregenza: because I'm just gonna pause you just to clarify, because could get to a point in your relationship where you forgave him and it was neutral, but being with someone is not the same as being in love, being in connection, being in intimate ⁓ states ⁓ deep connection and right? Is that sort of where you got? Okay, keep going. ⁓ I'm understanding. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Exactly. Yes. So I was kind of looking for my purpose in life and what to do with this. ⁓ still, at that time, didn't know whom I ask help. Where should I go to fix this? Very important part. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Joanna Kristensen: And one in reading news, I just encountered an article, an interview with a first Poland sex I God. And it was like this. And I read what I had credentials. I, of course, read the article. And I so energized. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: And then a month later there was enrollment. So I in the certification program and this was so eye opening. was for it was such an journey because ⁓ everything what learned, I applied to our relationship. And I saw how, how we how, you know, our, you know, emotional connection, how we focus on pleasure. ⁓ how we are getting physically together because we bridged this somehow. So this was for me like two years later, two years after finishing certification and our relationship was at the point which was never before. I call it previous marriage because now I call it as also Dr. Tammy Nelson, I think she calls it this. Kait Tregenza: Right. Joanna Kristensen: or new relationship, new And we are in completely different relationship right Kait Tregenza: Okay, so tell me about that. what was your, know you said you had some at like, at the point of just before the affair, but what was your original like, prior to the disconnection, what were guys like? What was your perfect aspect of? Joanna Kristensen: So it is possible. Well, well, I always loved sex, with years and with our relationship and how we get emotionally disconnected and basically lives were separate, was, how to put it, I was just doing it him, you know? Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Joanna Kristensen: to, I think to keep him. So, know, somewhere the back of my head there was this, you know, you to... Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Joanna Kristensen: satisfy husband's sexual needs. But then I forgot about mine. lost myself, you know, because my, you know, somehow was doing it for him. Kait Tregenza: That makes a lot of sense to me how you repaired your betrayal then, because if your relationship prior to this affair was, I'm doing everything to keep him. Joanna Kristensen: point. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: The way that you actually got back together was he wanted to finally keep you. It was almost like, it was almost like you got the proof that you needed to finally feel security and the relationship of he's actually gonna fight for me now. Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Like, that's amazing. Joanna Kristensen: Maybe, maybe that's haven't thought about it like that, yes, but I think, yeah wanted him to ⁓ Kait Tregenza: It's just interesting how you told the story because it was like, it wasn't until you went out and he shifted into, I'm going to get rid of her and I'm going to fight for the woman, like the wife that I actually have and the mother of my child that I actually already have. And if your relationship prior was always about you in the background, satisfying him and his needs and keeping him. Maybe the security equalizer that happened. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes. I think the paradox is that I after this after when I made decisions, this decision that going to stay and the whole process to there despite the hurt and pain and the loneliness and the difficulty the situation, I felt empowered. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Mm. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Joanna Kristensen: Because this was also, know, a little bit goes to into the relationship with my mom, but we were very close and she was always advising me. this like after she passed away, couldn't, ⁓ you go to And this was the first very important, if not the most important decision I made myself. I took my time. I... Kait Tregenza: fool yourself with no one else. Joanna Kristensen: I did the digging, know, like checking the whole, you know, circumstances, what, you know, it was like, it was empowering, yes. Kait Tregenza: I get that. And you do this course now you change. This opens up an opportunity for you to reestablish a culture in your marriage, to reestablish the guidelines, to reestablish how you want to be married to each other, ⁓ how want to do life together, how you want to do couplehood together, how you want to parent together. But more importantly, how do you want to be true pleasure based beings who cohabitate and live their lives? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes. Kait Tregenza: together. And it sounds like that wasn't necessarily the playbook of your first marriage, so to speak. Joanna Kristensen: No, it wasn't. wasn't. think what is, again, another important thing, and this is another lesson learned, and I think you talked about this a lot in your betrayal episode contract. You know, a lot of couples, I think most of us, get into the relationships without basically, you know, with assumed, with a of assumptions around monogamy. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: We go into it and we think, okay, so it will always be just the two of us and have the same definition of ⁓ but don't. We don't. We define monogamy completely different. And this is so important to make a make an agreement where you define what monogamy and infidelity means to each of you. especially now when you have so many opportunities with the online world. Yes, because imagine this, okay, your partner watches porn. Are you okay with that or not? ⁓ chat rooms, DMs, liking, emotional without doing anything, then some physical, just Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Is that even? Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: colleagues, know, drinks with colleagues. You know, if you imagine all this opportunity, opportunities for infidelity, it's enormous. And if you don't define it, what is it exactly and go through it? We did the work. We made explicit, explicit. So what we assumed, we put it on paper, we put it in writing. Kait Tregenza: Totally. Mmm. Joanna Kristensen: how we define it, what are our boundaries, what are our expectations, are our needs. And another important thing, because of course after something like this happened, you promise each other that you will do it again, that it will never happen again. But we have a clause that if feel, one of us feel, that there is something You know, there is some connection with somebody developing. People develop feelings. This is life. This is normal. We meet a lot of people before anything can happen, we come to each other and we talk about it. And then we decide together what to do with it. Kait Tregenza: Okay, what to do? Okay, so pause, because you've said so much there. right, so did you sit and have these one by by one by one conversations? Like, how do you define monokumi? And did you like, tease that out of him? Did you get every single aspect of like, what about this? What about this? What about, or was it more organic? Like, did that happen? I'm so curious. ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes. ⁓ I think, no, I don't think I had a list, but we sit down you know, with computer the front and, you know, and I was typing. Kait Tregenza: Wow, okay, so do you recommend couples to or even new, ⁓ know, people who are newly dating, you know, into a relationship, ⁓ what they cover off in these kinds of making the implicit explicit kinds of contracts? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. First of all, the earlier you have this conversation, the better. Because then you can avoid so much hurt. Sorry. ⁓ Maybe one. But when you are, you know, when you decide you are together, you are in a relationship where the monogamy assumed, yes, this conversation because this can save you a lot of pain and hurt. you know, I Kait Tregenza: Date one, maybe too soon. Date one, maybe too soon. Okay, okay. Joanna Kristensen: And this is not the conversation you should have once. This is the conversation you should revisit. Kait Tregenza: Okay, so help women, because having this conversation is not helpful. So what is the parameters of the conversation? What should we be covering off? can we know that we've gotten what need to know? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yeah, first of all, we need to start with ourself. What is infidelity for me? We have to, you know, make this, you know, process in our head or on paper, whatever. We need to know what we want. What are our boundaries? Because this is not so clear. Sometimes it's not so clear for us. What are our boundaries? Sometimes we can imagine, yes, that this is, no, this is something what okay with. But then when it happen, no, I'm not okay with it. Kait Tregenza: Okay. and You're not. Joanna Kristensen: So we need to be clear as clear as possible because we cannot cover all the scenarios. think it's very hard to cover all the scenarios, but those which comes to your mind, there are your boundaries, your expectations, meeting your needs. is something, thinking about all this stuff what we talked about, online world, which is really such a world. reach of potential infidelities if you don't define them. Because maybe you creating, there is no rule book for that. The couple is creating the rule book for themselves. And sometimes it ⁓ negotiations. Yes, because ⁓ let's needs are strong or feelings are strong about it, that this is nothing serious. But for other person, ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: It is breaking the, for example, the contract, yes, that you are making. So there is, first of all, know it yourself, then bring it to your partner. Give him also a chance to prepare, tell him that you would like to have a conversation, him or her. I'm talking all the time because it was my husband who betrayed me. So have the conversation with yourself, give him a chance to think about it. together, then sit and cover all the things you come to your mind. environment, what can happen with colleagues drinks after are okay, ⁓ if flirting colleague is okay. It happens, right? And for some it's innocent and for others it's not innocent all. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: And what about, example, don't know, flirting with somebody or building an emotional connection online, but nothing physical happens. Or friendship, where there is the boundary with the close friendship and very big emotion and very deep emotional connection. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: Then the physical acts, what physical acts? I don't know if kissing somebody is okay or it's not, ⁓ out with somebody is okay or not. So, you know, so it's, really, you make a long, ⁓ long but what is the most important? ⁓ Kait Tregenza: You go through everything. And I guess what I'm hearing from you is there's no right or wrong. It's what is right available for this couple. ⁓ you in couple with Henry might be different to you in a couple with Sarah. You and Sarah, you're open. do whatever you want. You and Henry, it's very closed ⁓ and ⁓ know, operates differently. So just because you think you know what you want, Joanna Kristensen: for the couple. For this couple. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And it's fine if it's fine. Yes. Kait Tregenza: in one or in your past relationships doesn't necessarily mean that you can operate from the assumption that the other person wants what you want in this relationship. And so you have to do it every single time. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes. You have to do it every single time. Yes. And if you are long, like we are long, we revisit the contract, right? Kait Tregenza: Okay. And given that your wanted have an ⁓ open at one is something that you opened and investigated in setting terms of your relationship? Was that something that you were both interested to ⁓ investigate and consider? Joanna Kristensen: or that time when he me to. Kait Tregenza: when you would setting up these contract terms and these ways in which you were going to live. Joanna Kristensen: ⁓ Yes, we did. Because, you know, non-monogamy, it's also okay. It's also a case scenario, right? If the couple is okay with it. But didn't want it. And we negotiated, it is more intimate, you allow me, I will not share it, ⁓ but had some negotiations around that, in general we agreed that we are monogamous, within our definition. Kait Tregenza: All right, so going back to these contract terms and these conversations and these contracts that we sort of need to set up, first know what we want, communicate that with the other, get definitionally on the same page in scenarios, in context, in all the different contexts that can occur. What next? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes. What next? As far as the rebuilding is concerned, that ⁓ depends which phase after betrayal we are. Because as I mentioned, Dr. Nelson created this phases roadmap. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: I don't know if this is what you asked, if not, then correct me. So this, the first phase is the crisis. So if I could go through this phase, because I think they are really, really important and it's important to know this phases because, and where you are, I understand because it's, it helps you to make better decisions at the moment. It, it allows you not to, you know, if you skip Kait Tregenza: Yeah, yeah, these three faces. Mm. Joanna Kristensen: a phase, might, you know, just stop before the break for you. ⁓ You resign when you know the phase, it, it, it really ⁓ helps This is kind of a framework and, and all leads to erotic recovery, which is like another ⁓ deep and very step, because one thing is you are rebuilding your relationship and then you have to repair this, like the, like the second. important thing, which is your sexual relationship. So first, if you are the crisis ⁓ phase, is the most difficult. And you have to know that this phase will not last And this is really important. It will last forever. It will pass. what is typical for this is a lot of intrusive thoughts. You want to know ⁓ everything, every detail, with how many times, where was it? And, know, this is so, how, would is so heavy, but this is what you want to know. And at the same time, so you want to know every detail, but the partner betrayed, he wants to move on as fast as possible. So there is this, know, this connection and the partner who, who, who betrayed ⁓ has to respect that, this person. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: to know, but the person who was betrayed to give herself time and ask some questions, but don't go deep into it this can really ⁓ better ramifications. just, she's this person is just, you it's self-destructing getting into it. And with the... Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: sexual part or intimacy part what's happening is very interesting because there are two very like extreme reactions. Couples either go into hysterical bonding, so they you know suddenly they have a lot of sex and good sex sometimes better than they had before and sometimes it's like you ⁓ don't any touch at all and both reactions are normal. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, okay. Joanna Kristensen: But it's very interesting how we, because you know this hysterical bonding is like, losing something. ⁓ you know, so you are trying to grab it and on to it. Kait Tregenza: Right, so it's kind of like if you have attachment style you have almost, like if you're avoiding... ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Also, yes, of course, yes, the attachments, of course, they also have a lot to do with it. Yes, yes. So this is very interesting. And in this phase, think the most important is not to make life-changing decision because this phase should be stabilizing. will come later. So first stabilize because self-care is important because ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Either don't touch me or I need like, I need to cling on to you. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. Joanna Kristensen: at this time, this space, you can't sleep, you can't eat, you know, you basically you lose yourself, you know, so that's why the self care is so important. The intrusive thoughts, I had plenty of them. Mindfulness helps, physical exercise helps. So anything would work to get you out of this. So the crisis phase... Kait Tregenza: you Kickboxing, throwing plates, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joanna Kristensen: whatever, I don't know, rec room, whatever, whatever helps, know, this because, accept your emotions because there will be, you will be going from up and down. And ⁓ is, this is really, this is the most difficult phase, but it will pass. It will pass. And then you go into the second phase, which is integration. And this is, ⁓ think, you know, when you are in this phase, when you start. Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: when your thinking shifts from his affair to what happened to us or how did it happen to us. So, you know, there is kind of, you know, getting into, ⁓ don't know, empathy, you trying to understand what happened. it's more to less asking why, Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Joanna Kristensen: happened, but why it happened. So get into meaning. Because it's really interesting what you can find out why your partner betrayed you. And then there ⁓ building ⁓ understanding about it. And as I'm saying, as I said before, think that the decision the betrayal was the partner alone. did you both to this situation? you both, you know, it was co-created. It was, you know, part can take some responsibility, some accountability for that. Kait Tregenza: And also if you are not prepared to see the shadow side of your own contribution any rupture is harder and harder to expect the to go into that investigation of them, of their self. And I think as women or as emotional leader of the relationship, whoever that may be, even if you are the one who's so-called ⁓ betrayed, if you can do the to meet the shadow, to meet the part of you that's being repressed or suppressed or not given airtime, and however that manifested into the person pulling away from you or betraying you or doing whatever it was. Joanna Kristensen: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Yes. Kait Tregenza: And maybe you even have a history of people betraying you cheating on you or anything. And it's always so valuable to be like, okay, well, I am the common denominator in attracting the people ⁓ can't love me to the degree that I need them to love me or ⁓ me or be with me or whatever. Or it leads to, well, ⁓ do need a loosening of relation? ⁓ of like. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Yes. Kait Tregenza: like handle on these relationships? Am I being too controlling? Am I driving people away? Whatever it may be. I think it's a very sobering and it can very confronting at first if you haven't had a history of doing shadow work or seeing the shadow. But the shadow can also be really positive as well. It can be, where am I the needs that I need met? ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: and not voicing them to person. ⁓ shadow work doesn't just be the negative side of you. It can also be like, what could be positive about my future relationship? Joanna Kristensen: Yeah, because this... Yeah, exactly. And this is, you know, like the part of, you know, another, this last step, the vision, one thing is, of course, you have to allow this introspection without blaming yourself because, you know, yourself also for his or her it's also not a thing to do. thinking about I wasn't I was not good enough or every time I decline him sex probably this was it. This is just self-destructing. So I don't think we should think in this category but more of the categories of responsibility or accountability. What you know what did I do to contribute to this that we I don't know we drift apart. or that we disconnected. little bit reflection ⁓ auto-reflection, it's in this whole Not putting blame to anyone, but just thinking and taking the responsibility ⁓ for it. then this also helps you to build a relationship because what you said ⁓ well about this I can take something out of it, something, improve some, yes, for you repressed your feelings, you repressed your needs, you haven't talked about, then it builds resentment. ⁓ you so there is a lot of there which influenced the whole situation. ⁓ And you think now, ⁓ now have a chance, you know, for us, it was a wake up call. Now we can discuss everything in the open, honestly, because what... Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Mm. Joanna Kristensen: Worse could have happened already happened, you can say. Okay, we could have separated, but more less, betrayal I think, one of the hardest thing can for the relationship because this is broken trust and rebuilding it takes years. Generating, repairing. Kait Tregenza: It's really interesting what you said then, cause it really sparked something for me. The worst that could have happened is what happened. You know, what's interesting about this it is so what we the worst could be. Right. And I think that sometimes it's not that the worst thing in the world has to happen. It doesn't have to be like, Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Kait Tregenza: full chaos and destruction, but it has to be like, what's your version of the worst thing that could happen for that to be the wake up call for you? Because I know that it would hurt I've never been cheated on. Because I don't think I have in ⁓ my system, I don't that's the worst thing that could happen to me. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Yes. ⁓ That's good. Mm. Kait Tregenza: Do know what I mean? ⁓ ⁓ yet, like you said the worst that could have happened to me, was like, Joanna, I can think of like 20 things that are worse than that. And that's what sparked this thought of going, we only need what's worse in ⁓ our world spark thing ⁓ to make us change. then the counter thought that at the same time was, ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, of course. Yes. Kait Tregenza: Because what need fulfilled in my victim story and what I needed to be fed for my specific needs and requirements is different to what you were needing in your victim story too. I that's why it's so hard to get out of our victim because it feels ⁓ so good be that. You're like, these terrible things that always, you know, Joanna Kristensen: Mm. Yes. Exact. It is. Kait Tregenza: like dreaded. This is my deepest deepest fear and then it happened to me and let me tell you like pick up chair. I've got my violin. Let me tell you all about it and as you get so comfortable and satiated in this victim story and you get fed by it. is the thing to get out of. Joanna Kristensen: was afraid of that it just happened. Yes. Kait Tregenza: Because looking at yourself and the role that you're playing and what you're getting out of this story and saying, okay, so is it true? First of all, is like really hard to ask and answer correctly. Cause yeah, in your mind it's true. You are the victim. This thing happened. No one can deny you that story, right? But. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. to me. Kait Tregenza: The next question is like, and what are you getting from this? Like, what are you loving about this situation? And the thing that I think you can start to ask for from your partner. Like, I get attention when, X, Y, happened, you know? ⁓ you didn't give me that kind of attention or nobody's ever given me that kind of attention. And this is what I get from my victim story. Can you talk to a little bit about that? Because I know you would have. Joanna Kristensen: No. Kait Tregenza: had to transform your victim into somebody who is willing to actually sit in a room in front of your so-called betrayer, husband, ⁓ and say, I'm going to sit here and listen to you and listen to why you did this to me and take for what I did. Because in doing that, you have Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: to let go of the victim. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah, this is very difficult, especially the first phase. It's absolutely, think ⁓ is the moment you feel so hurt and there so pain. And I don't think you to get out of this role. Somehow it's like... It, he did it to me. he destroyed our family and, know, and all this story ⁓ it's So you are so self absorbed and, so, so focused yourself and, but. You if will there, then there is no chance for repair, no chance for repair. so, you know, ⁓ you have to somehow, yeah, we are coming to. Kait Tregenza: No. Joanna Kristensen: have to decide do you want to be a victim of the story or you want to take over kind of a control but in the good sense Yes ⁓ over the situation and accept this already happened. I can't do anything about it What I can do is a decision Should I stay or should I go if you make this decision? then behave Kait Tregenza: Hmm. ⁓ Mm. Joanna Kristensen: Accordingly to your decision make the steps make the plan, but you know I'm not saying forget about it. I haven't forgotten about it because you know when when we talk about now, it's so alive in me ⁓ you know and different Things I forgotten, ⁓ know, the pieces, you know when you ask the question that the pieces they are coming in Kait Tregenza: Mm. Amazing. Joanna Kristensen: I didn't remember that and this and that ⁓ it will be always part of your story. But the question is how you want to shape your future. Do you want to stay with this person? Do you have a foundation to rebuild to build a completely new relationship? Because is what you're going to do. You are not coming back to this what it was because this caused the rupture. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: So there was something wrong in your previous relationship. ⁓ you can do and this, this, think to, you know, to think about it, what, what happened, what lead led us to this situation we are in and what lessons learned. have, I think a list of, you know, at 10 lessons learned from what, what, what, what I have. And, ⁓ and, I was really ⁓ thinking about. Kait Tregenza: Thank Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: not in the crisis phase. The crisis phase is really so difficult because you are so self-absorbed just in emotion, in your pain. So this is not the time to process. This is time for yourself, for self-compassion. Kait Tregenza: How do you make that first step out of crisis? Joanna Kristensen: I think ⁓ is what I said, that you start to think, this is how you realize you are in this that you start to okay, not his affair, but this happened to ⁓ us, to relationship, so you change this ⁓ focus. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. So is it just time? it just, or is there steps? Joanna Kristensen: For me, was time. me, it was time. Usually, because this like healing after the betrayal, it's not moving on. It's moving through and moving through the phases. ⁓ Normally, takes three years with specialist support, therapist ⁓ professional who supports Kait Tregenza: and Joanna Kristensen: Sometimes it takes longer. you know, because there are so many factors, there's this trust broke and there is this ⁓ of, you know, of your and you have to build it, you know, back. So I don't, don't see What's the first steps the couple, they start to talk to each other honestly. No, you know, this is like, because we, think we. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: I don't want say that we hide a lot, you know, we are not fully honest with our, not fully open about our needs, about what's going on under our inner world. This is very seldom. And you know, I think this is what, when you build this new relationship, then you have a chance for that. Then you have a chance for this open, honest relationship where you can talk about everything and not hide. what you need or what you want, are your expectations and then you can talk about it. So when the couples finally start openly talking about this, how it felt for me, I experienced it that way this is how it made me feel. Then the other person says, yes, and I'm that I made you that way. For me, it this and this. ⁓ So when they finally to talk, when there is no they are sitting a little bit closer to each other on the sofa. Not just very away. I ⁓ it's different for different couples. moment, this... I can't catch this one moment there is this one step which will take you from one face to the It's more smooth. Kait Tregenza: When you, you found out about the affair and you were on maternity leave, you didn't have income. When you say you were on maternity leave, you had left your job and you didn't have a job to go back to. Is that what you mean? Joanna Kristensen: I had a job to come back to, but put it that way. The income I was getting there, this was NGO. So it was very little money. I was doing it more for the cause, for the purpose. Kait Tregenza: Okay. So financially felt dependent on your husband. You still in that early motherhood phase. I'm curious if you through this same process of sitting down really the aspects of your relationship yourself that got you into a position of vulnerability or precariousness is maybe the better word, where you ⁓ actually a lesser choice or do you look back and think, thank goodness I was in a financial position that required me to work on my relationship because it would have been too easy to leave otherwise. Like ⁓ I'm how you look back at that. at that point, because I think it's so easy and the rhetoric on the internet is like, you know, get your own money, know, always make sure that you can leave a man. ⁓ just curious as someone who's repaired her relationship with her husband and the father of her child, do you see this as a blessing actually, or would you change that going forward? Joanna Kristensen: Okay. Hmm. question. I that it was a blessing because I... it's... okay, my situation wasn't easy but I could always leave and I think it's always easier to leave than to work on the relationship because this requires a of effort. a lot of vulnerability. It's work. So I could go and, you know, probably would agree something that could be, know, my daughter would be, you know, covered. of course I could made it work. But I also loved him. Right. this is like there is the emotional side and then there is rational side. Rational side, ⁓ say You know, your financial situation, it's kind of difficult. You have a small baby, you know, how are we going there? And then there is emotional side, we said, you love him. You want to, you want to be with him. You want to stay with him. So, um, I believe in repair if there is a good foundation. And I knew that we have this good foundation because we both loved each other. So, uh, I think this was, and we were, and before we also. We started as friends as well. there was this, you know, of, there this foundation. So for from my perspective now, it was really it because when I look at our relationship now. Kait Tregenza: Thank you. Joanna Kristensen: really it's, ⁓ it's great. I'm not saying that we don't have, you know, our ups and downs and, difficult situations, but, talk about it. You know, we are honest. We are honest about our feelings. We, we apologize. We each other every day for small things. Thank you for bringing me coffee. Thank you for throwing out the trash. You the small things, small gestures. day a lot of non-sexual touch, ⁓ so important. So, yes, blessing. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: So let's put it into the work that you do now. Like tell us more about what you actually do day to day, who you really helping and what you really love helping with. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Yes, so I, in I help relationships to have better relationships, long-term couples to help have better relationship and life and to reignite the spark and out of the bedroom. So this is like in short, my favorite couples, you basically, know, I cover ⁓ mismatch desire. little or no sex, breakdowns in communication, negotiations. Also, come to me in this transition periods, like having baby, how to go back to sex life, this is difficult situation, all the transitions. ⁓ Midlife is a transition. when are going through the, for example, fertility struggles and IVF, you start to treat the sex mechanical. So how to ⁓ make it mechanical and more connected. So basically ⁓ my dream are who I track, they struggle with things that I also struggled before. So I can offer them lived experience and only the and what I during my certification, also the experience, understanding, the empathy. I think this is because this is also we connect. Kait Tregenza: So you you're with a Danish husband and I assume that, you know, of the culture that is in couple is talking things through, writing things down, you know. ⁓ What if you, a couple who's like, ⁓ my God, you know, like I would never, like ⁓ that's so repulsive me. I don't want to like write this stuff out. I don't want to like. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Kait Tregenza: plan how many nights a week we're going to have sex, like many ways. Joanna Kristensen: But... don't go like this how many times we'll sex. was saying about the... This is about your boundaries and about your expectations. So this ⁓ is the about the rest we don't write. ⁓ if... ⁓ contract about monogamy. Yes, the contract is about the monogamy. No, the list is more... It's not that structured, I like planning and organizing, so this is... ⁓ No, but when... ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Sure. Yeah, okay. Okay, okay, so the contract is very narrow. It's ended that. I was like, Hey, your, your husband is Danish. It might be what really turns him on. don't know. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. when, when couple doesn't want to do that, then they don't have to write it down, but they to talk about it. They have to talk through it. ⁓ And sometimes very difficult because, know, one person is open and the other is, know, doesn't like to about this thing because basically this is so intimate, so, so private. So ⁓ people have really sometimes hard to talk. what What I do is like I meet a couple together a session, but then I'm meeting them in the individual sessions because then ⁓ there a chance that they will share more. And, you know, then I have a picture of their dynamic together, but also I know that, you know, a little more about individual and then we then we work on that. So I don't if answered your question. Kait Tregenza: interesting, because I've had an experience with going to a sex coach when I was very young, like in my 20s. ⁓ yeah, sure. I didn't about mixed mass libido when ⁓ was young, This was my first boyfriend, like long-term boyfriend. Joanna Kristensen: Okay, tell me about it. Miss much libido. Okay. Kait Tregenza: boyfriend. We met when I was around 23, 24 and we stayed together until almost my, basically my Saturn returns. It was so funny. my Saturn, I didn't know anything about Saturn returns, but someone explained it to me one day and I was like, oh, that's what I did. I turned and I looked at this man and I was just like, no, no, I'm sorry. I've got to go. Joanna Kristensen: Okay. Kait Tregenza: the lead up to that was I couldn't understand. I couldn't understand that was his libido problem. Cause I had only ever been told that all men want is sex. And so here's this guy who didn't want sex with me. And yeah, really that. And I really made that about and myself. Joanna Kristensen: Mm-hmm. doesn't want. But like at all? Rejection about, yeah, yeah. Kait Tregenza: And it was awful, right? and if we did ever finally get to do something together, was like, it was more disappointing to have an opportunity to be with him and be completely unfulfilled than to just, so I reduced and stopped my libido as well. And that actually, a high libido, high energy person, it's a form of death, right? Like my creativity stopped, my zest for life stopped, I stopped making friends, I stopped going outside the house. I kind of didn't really understand it, but it was a form of depression, but I wasn't mentally depressed. My whole body was just... Joanna Kristensen: second. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: off. Like it was just like literally like someone came in and just switched everything off. I remember, I don't remember exactly what happened, but like I got like information that sex coaches exist and like, and I was like, okay, we're going to go to one. I spoke to him about it. He thought it was a terrible idea. I that I had convinced him to come anyway. ⁓ And I was basically sitting in the sex therapist office alone for couples, like for couples sex counseling. And it was something I didn't click onto. And it a little while. Like I think that's what happens when we're ⁓ so bombarded our youth about these ⁓ ideas that just want sex all the time. Men just want sex all the time. Joanna Kristensen: and waiting. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: And, you know, so then I was like, okay, well, I'm going to learn more. I'm going to do more or whatever it may be. And was very jealous person and I have never experienced jealousy in that way. ⁓ And, and I guess going out in full glow and my happiness and my turn on that's very attractive. ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. Hmm. Yes. Kait Tregenza: And as he turned that down and I had linked sexual attractiveness to what I got from him directly because of his jealousy. And I like, you know, like my light and my being is not for everyone. It's just for him. And then he didn't want it. And was a very, that was a very challenging relationship for me actually, because it really me so much. ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: to find my own erotic sense of self myself. I couldn't do that with him in the relationship, but that was the journey that I went on after broke up. ⁓ But it was that very like, I don't know, maybe like one thing the other, after the other, after the other until finally it was like, no, like I'm done, like go. And I just left one Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. Yeah, this is very, very... I'm sorry that you went through it, because especially in your primary, if you are a sexual person, you have to somehow squish it, because he doesn't have this need. But I wonder whether there was just a question of Ibido, or why he didn't really want sex, because this is like... Kait Tregenza: Well, he didn't really want anything from life. So sex was just an extension of how he lived his life. Like it wasn't, he wasn't a passionate, he had a very low testosterone in general, know, like very low energy output, very like, was not the kind of person that was like, let's get up and see the world do stuff together. ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: It was like, let's sleep in all day and our weekend sleeping and eating watching TV. It was just a ⁓ mismatch all Yeah. ⁓ Why did date him? ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: like mismatch everything in seams, yeah, that you are, you know, completely two different person with different needs. Exactly. That's what I wanted to ask him and for how long it's it the, you know, mismatch in many, many fields. what interesting for me, what you said, and this is basically how what was going on or wasn't going on in your sex life affected. your creativity, your energy. even mentioned that you felt kind of depressed because this is what we sometimes we don't see that our sexual life doesn't happen in empty in base or I don't know how to say it, but all connected. Mind, energy, emotion, spirit, is everything influence what's going on. Kait Tregenza: Yes. Joanna Kristensen: with our self, our sex life, with our relationships. So this is very interesting, are great example of that, but I'm happy that you got of this. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: I mean, I'm happy that I experienced it as well because it really pushed me into the next decade of my life exploring what is sexuality? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. What is it that you want and also what you want? Because this is, know, many of us don't really know what we want, but we will not if we will not try, if we will not get to know our bodies. Many women don't even look at their their vulva, you know, they don't know how this is, you know, they don't look at themselves, they don't touch themselves. So this is very important to get to know. selves, our sexuality, our needs, because this is what we can share our partners, because they are not Holy Ghosts. They also have learned, I don't know, from porn or from their friends to do. But we have to tell them what works for us. And the same, they should tell them what works for them. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. And I think of the questions, I guess, that I was asking you, ⁓ mean, could be applied to this relationship, right? Of like, Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: Sometimes you need to know when someone is not the right. You it's not the right, because I stay, you you said, you said, why were you dating this guy? It's because I loved him. We were wrong for each other in every way, but I really loved him. He had good qualities that I obviously haven't spoken about, but I think, I think for me, the answer to the question of why I, I, I stayed with him, the conclusion that I came to over Joanna Kristensen: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: multiple iterations over the last decade or so since we split was really around I didn't love me. I didn't know how to love me. Joanna Kristensen: Yes. I think this is that comes with age, ⁓ this how we treat ourselves, self-acceptance. I I still work on ⁓ many of these but just now I'm ⁓ in my midlife I'm more aware Kait Tregenza: Peace. Joanna Kristensen: of myself, of my needs, of trying to be to myself. But for me, this comes with an edge because for many years I was a good girl and ⁓ I wish I hadn't. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Yeah, I think we all do. Joanna Kristensen: And now in my midlife, I'm trying to stop to be a good girl. But this is how I was raised, how my basically girls in my generation were raised. And then, you know, I was also raised in Catholic Poland where, you know, sex was shameful know, you just felt shame and guilt. so get out of this, this is a journey. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. And I know I was going to say that earlier as well. was like, for me having a that was ⁓ low and low interest, ⁓ low testosterone, low life force, like ⁓ low every way, the way I could sustain that was there was a of safety in that for me as well. Right. In terms of. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Kait Tregenza: If all men want from you is sex and this person is not only wanting sex for me, but wanting conversation, wanting all of these other things. He wanted something deeper or he wanted something that was physical and it was intellectual and it was emotional. ⁓ was safety in that because my relationship with sex as many were, going up was. Joanna Kristensen: So, want something deeper. Kait Tregenza: was very stained with so many ideologies, different repressions, different remorseful, sinful connotations. I have a self-care, self-love practice. I didn't I didn't touch myself. I didn't look at myself. These are things that are all normal for women, millennial women, but not. Joanna Kristensen: flip. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yes. Kait Tregenza: normal for younger women. That's the difference is that, for example, Joanna Kristensen: But this is cultural conditioning as well, yes? Because we look... Kait Tregenza: It is, it's cultural conditioning, but taking, you you and I are both mothers of daughters. And the time I saw my daughter discover there's a way which can pleasure herself, ⁓ I didn't say anything. I actually like her know that. Like I didn't teach ⁓ I was more like, I gave her the ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Kait Tregenza: And the, the opportunity to investigate that without being yelled at, without my discomfort being pushed onto her, without my shame being pushed onto her. And it was this moment of time of going, Oh my God, I don't have shame watching my daughter learn something about her body. That was like this moment of like, it really will. Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. without being shamed. Yes. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: end with me. lineage will end with me and I will die with this having been removed from my body and that I think more than anything else is why I'm so grateful for this first initial boyfriend who didn't want anything to do with me sexually and for me to have taken that ⁓ so and so like the identity I had was shattered ⁓ because ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. Yeah. Yes, yeah, because you were kind of rejected. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: I was so unwanted. I was rejected because if I'm not good for anything else other than sex, am I good for? And that answer is really been all of the like and outs of that journey, you know? Joanna Kristensen: But you know, with this, now I have just thought that, because in this when there is this misdemeanor libido and, you know, and one person initiates and then the other person says no, and then ⁓ again, the says no, and there is this cycle, ⁓ the who no feels guilty, the other ⁓ feels rejected, hurt, undesired. ⁓ But, you know, problem I think that we take it so Kait Tregenza: Thanks. Joanna Kristensen: personally and you know, we just think what does it mean for me? It doesn't mean that I'm not enough, that I'm not alone, but I think it's important to get curious what is going on for the other person, you know, like because it might have nothing to do with you. Kait Tregenza: Totally. Yeah. And I think that if I weren't 23, 24, I might've been able to do that. Joanna Kristensen: It might be. Yeah, now we are wise. know, now we are women. ⁓ in 20s, even 30s... ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Yeah, ⁓ know. Honestly, even when I think about the relationships that I did have in, know, so I went from this hyper low ⁓ libido, mobility, low fertility person. I mean, you know who I dated next, right? ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: opposite. All same. The opposite, yeah. Kait Tregenza: No, the opposite. You got it right. And that's what we do. you know, because nobody was teaching us this stuff. So we go out and we try to like it. And you're like, okay, well, I loved about how he loved me except for this. Let me go and find this. Not remembering, remember things that I also loved. Joanna Kristensen: this yeah Kait Tregenza: It's like you do the opposite. It's like, okay, well, I'm going to have a person that has no emotional intelligence, you know, connection to me, but just a sexual, um, you know, relationship. And you're like, Oh, that sucks too. So I think, I, I, I think that, you know, this is it's okay. I, I've come to the terms with it's not that I, um, Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Yeah. And how did it work for you? Kait Tregenza: and bad at relationships. It's that I'm too good at staying in relationships that are not mine to stay in. I'm too good almost at working them out. And so that's why I was really curious about your past. Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. Okay, uh-huh. I, now I understand your question. Yes, because yeah, but sometimes we, we, we stay in the relationship we shouldn't have stayed. we stayed too long in them. And after, you know, it's not like this, that to every who came with betrayal and wants to rebuild, when I see that, you know, the signs that there is nothing to build on, yeah, that there is not, this foundation, then, then I work you know, because this is, you know, ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Mm. Time of death. Joanna Kristensen: believe that instead of replacing, try to repair it. But if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. And then you have to save moment. But we And this is what I think it's important that you just don't, because happened, you just, okay, it's done. And ⁓ then you also from them, I would never. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: stayed with a partner who betrayed me. I would never. I thought like this exactly the same before it happened to me. So never say never and you never know how you will behave in this situation because there are also other circumstances. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. How do you... guess you just dealt with that part of you that thought you would never stay with someone who betrayed you? Joanna Kristensen: know, I think it's simply... I it was one of my reflections, know, these auto-reflections. And you see, you thought that you will never stay with somebody like this and now you are trying to fight for it. So it ⁓ I think was just a shift in my thinking, my And then was really very careful saying that I will never do something or, you know... because don't know how we're going to behave in the situation until it happens. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Mmm. I think there's been a lot of very valuable information that I thank you so much for asking to have this conversation because it's so to throw things out. It's so easy to throw things out. And think you are very lucky to have found someone that is worth fighting for, that is worth putting yourself in discomfort for, that is Joanna Kristensen: Yes. Kait Tregenza: that is worth even going changing your entire life and your entire career trajectory to, you know, actually help ⁓ women who and other couples. Yeah. You know, and that means that it's like that you all of initiations that you needed to be the person who holds people through this journey, you know, going through the IVF, going through the ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: This was a bonus. Kait Tregenza: the rupture very early on in your motherhood, going through the repair of the affair, going through the open marriage navigation, ⁓ through all of these kinds of things, You've really through so many aspects of this. And then even prior to that, just like the just general vanilla drifting because work schedules and life schedules and all of that. ⁓ Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. Erotic recovery, yes. Kait Tregenza: You've literally lived through it all. know what it feels like in your body. You know what it feels like to have someone to your face and forgive and to learn not just be neutral and cohabitate with this person, co-parent with this person, but actually get into a deep, erotic, sexualized love again. Like a really big deal. Joanna Kristensen: Yeah. It Now you say that, when you it all together, ⁓ it was lot. It was a lot, but it was really worth for me. I know that this will not always be the case for everybody. Kait Tregenza: Hmm Joanna Kristensen: give it a try if you think that there is something deeper than that there is foundation, there is something to build on. it's easier to just throw it away. Kait Tregenza: Because even if it doesn't work out, you know that you've actually changed a really important pattern, which is, instead of moving away, it's like that, you know, it's coming back to the namesake of this podcast. You stand into the fire and you burn away all those lies, all those things that are not true and you your partner, like stand into this flame. Joanna Kristensen: Hmm, and you've learned something. Kait Tregenza: and find the passion that we have for each other again. And let's burn brightly. Like let's use this flame for good now, instead of like destroying each other's lives through hate and animosity and and betrayal and anger and ⁓ Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you for this conversation. Are there any ⁓ things that you think that you just need to wrap up this conversation, capstone it off and really share a final thought on? Joanna Kristensen: Yes. and resentment and everything, yeah. Mmm. Kait Tregenza: what women and couples could benefit from your wisdom. Joanna Kristensen: I think that when there is a betrayal in couple, you have to go through these phases. If you want to repair and you want to rebuild, you to go through these phases, the crisis phase, integration phase and division phase, which I ⁓ haven't yet. And ⁓ of couples make the mistake that they go for and they rebuild the connection between the emotional connection. ⁓ then don't ⁓ like erotic recovery. like they hope that it will repair itself. It won't. ⁓ You to on this part as well it's so crucial ⁓ the to have connection, to have this ⁓ pleasure to... And then this is also an opportunity to something new, something more exciting than what was. Because now you can be open about what you really need, what you want. And I this a wonderful experience. can start building from the new. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're, you give amazing to, to other women to other couples and your, ⁓ and your Instagram full of really like beautiful moments and connection points between, you know, you too, as a couple and you, as this way show of what's possible. And I think it's really easy for therapists to tell you what to do. Joanna Kristensen: I hope so. Kait Tregenza: I think it's a lot harder for them to show you. Joanna Kristensen: Yes, I'm a coach, so I'm thinking, you know, we're here now, where you want to be. ⁓ know, the processing the deep emotions, this work might be done before the couples come to me, or even they come to me, then if I see that there is a deeper world, a lot of resentment, ⁓ I refer them out first to the therapy. And then when go through this, then we can work on erotic Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: recovery, which is much more pleasant and more fun. Kait Tregenza: little bit more fun, hopefully. I mean, if it's not fun, then you're doing something wrong, right? All right, well, thank you so much. Do you want to tell people how they can find you and how they could work with you if this has resonated for them? Joanna Kristensen: Thank you, Kait. So my website, joanakristensen.com, you can find me also on Instagram at Kristensen Joanna, Joanna Kristensen was taken. And ⁓ you to work with me, if something resonated, is on my website, you can book a free discovery call because this is how I like to start, because I like, I'd like to first see if we are a good match for each other because there has to be. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Joanna Kristensen: kind of sometimes even chemistry the coaches with the therapist. You have to feel, if I see that I can help you, is this and we're good match, then we can start to work together. But I encourage you to book a free discovery call that's so that we can meet. Kait Tregenza: guess what I want to reflect back to you about what I learned or what I'm taking away from this conversation is there's no reason why you couldn't this process with any kind relationship, even if it's a non-intimate relationship. Because I'm really thinking about Joanna Kristensen: Yeah, even if it's not. Yes. Kait Tregenza: what would it be like to this like erotic vision for a friendship? And then like, what would that mean? You know, what would that take, you know, what that take the world into? Like if women were arriving in Eros into friendship, you know, about creation, about magic, about, you know, just like visioning the world to be a better place and that our friendship. Joanna Kristensen: No. Kait Tregenza: was part of that vision and part of that bigger purpose. that was what was really coming to me of going, wouldn't this be amazing if this was the blueprint for creating every relationship. Joanna Kristensen: It would be. It would be. Yeah, but we can create it because I think women are more, keen to be, vulnerable, honest, supportive of each other. And we can really create the world we want. Now we have the possibilities that. Now in the, in our, now where we live this ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Joanna Kristensen: completely sometimes chaotic environment and what is going on in the world, can see what strength comes ⁓ women's groups, women's collective, how they support each other. And this is so beautiful. And yes, you can call it erotic, but there is kind of closeness you know, find women who are close you. Kait Tregenza: Mm. Joanna Kristensen: I have experience with women in the business collective, for example, where we support each other in fire. And ⁓ also, you know, in a more intimate where ask questions, you know, which we normally wouldn't ask ⁓ and we to them and we talked about it. And this This is also amazing because it seems that a lot of us have similar questions or dealing with similar concerns. Kait Tregenza: Amazing. I love that. I love that you bring that. it has been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for really opening up my personal ⁓ and opportunity to see. intimate and non-intimate relationships through this lens of, and I guess my relationship with myself as well, like how am I having this vision for my own self and how am I holding that? are any aspects of me that I'm holding onto this victim identity of this old story that's not allowing to step into that vision and to that erotic vision? Joanna Kristensen: Hmm. Doesn't, yes. Thank you so much Kait for having me. It was pleasure. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Thank you.