Latest / Brett Keane and Eve Show / Atheists vs Christianity

Transcript

Atheists vs Christianity · Brett Keane and Eve Show

• 0:25
  What's going on? That was quick.
• 0:32
  God bless you. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 0:37
  Okay, then a while, Seems like it anyway um it's been a while
• 0:42
  but I'm back again. I've been on a few trips so I
• 0:49
  haven't been able to go live recently and so here I am back.
• 0:57
  So yeah, this is atheist versus Christian, okay?
• 1:02
  It really should be called. Atheism versus Christianity,
• 1:08
  okay? Because this is not like a
• 1:10
  personal thing, right? This is not oh, you know, one
• 1:13
  up, right? I'm one up in you atheist or I'm
• 1:16
  one upping you Christian. It shouldn't be that you know,
• 1:20
  this is a common collected conversation.
• 1:22
  Okay, I know it can get heated, okay, it can get heated.
• 1:27
  This can get a be pretty heated conversation but it don't have
• 1:33
  to be. Okay, definitely don't have to
• 1:35
  be. so, with that being said, we're going to look at a few
• 1:42
  things. Hopefully, we can.
• 1:46
  Get a few people on tonight, looking at going, you know, a
• 1:51
  decent stream size links, right, or whatever.
• 1:53
  But yeah, so we can talk about morality right?
• 1:59
  Which, you know, they atheist seem to get kind of Twitchy when
• 2:04
  it gets to when you throw out more Ally because they think
• 2:07
  they got a, you know, I guess weave in and out of that, I'm
• 2:13
  not quite sure why? Because morality is what it is,
• 2:17
  right? Like it's right and wrong type
• 2:19
  thing we can talk about that. We can talk about just straight
• 2:23
  up inconsistency. I believe that, you know, the
• 2:26
  last stream that I did. I believe that atheism is
• 2:29
  completely inconsistent what's going up?
• 2:33
  Kenisha thank you for for coming on and you know, actually Thank
• 2:41
  you for doing that because now I'm gonna see if I can put the
• 2:44
  link in that, keep forgetting to do that at the beginning of the
• 2:46
  Stream. So anybody that wants to join
• 2:49
  up. Let's go.
• 2:49
  We'll talk about whatever. so again, like the The main topic
• 2:56
  here is not really. A straightforward topic, right?
• 3:00
  It's just like, hey, you know, let's talk about something
• 3:03
  atheism versus Christianity. Okay.
• 3:05
  And so, you know, we're inviting Christians and atheist, right?
• 3:12
  I don't care who you are. Right.
• 3:15
  You can come on in, that'd be great.
• 3:16
  But anyway, so we can talk about Morality.
• 3:20
  We can talk about just straight up inconsistency.
• 3:23
  I believe that atheism is completely, it can inconsistent
• 3:28
  and that that really relies on, rather not you believe in.
• 3:33
  Um, Evolution, right? if you believe, if you're an
• 3:38
  atheist and believe in evolution, then let's see.
• 3:49
  Okay. That's fine.
• 3:54
  And darn, it's okay. That's fine.
• 3:59
  If I'm still alive. Come on.
• 4:01
  If you get done. And that'd be great.
• 4:08
  But yeah. So um, so, you know, we can just
• 4:14
  talk about How I believe that atheism is inconsistent, and
• 4:18
  then the atheists can say that Christianity is inconsistent.
• 4:21
  And so we can talk about that, you know?
• 4:25
  We can talk about how Evolution I believe the evolution
• 4:29
  completely. Destroys.
• 4:33
  What atheist might believe which is like, okay well we can, you
• 4:39
  know, we can all live together in harmony and we can all have a
• 4:42
  thriving Society without God. um, I don't personally know how
• 4:48
  you can get come to that conclusion because I remember
• 4:52
  somebody saying my last stream. They said that, you know, you
• 4:57
  don't like atheism. The goal of atheism is not to
• 5:00
  like you're not supposed to get a thriving Society from atheism,
• 5:05
  and that's exactly my point. Is that you cannot have a
• 5:09
  thriving Society. With atheism.
• 5:11
  And so that's what, you know, we can talk about that.
• 5:17
  And and I'm sorry about the lighting here right in the
• 5:19
  lighting's, kind of off the mess in the back.
• 5:23
  Right, I got said, I've been on a trip.
• 5:26
  So my light is actually not working and so that's why.
• 5:32
  Looks kind of dark up here and you know, like back there.
• 5:35
  But anyway, So I guess I'll just you know until somebody comes on
• 5:40
  which everybody is welcome. There it is.
• 5:43
  You can ask any questions. You don't have to.
• 5:46
  Come on, you can ask any questions.
• 5:48
  If you ask a question, make sure that there's a big queue on it.
• 5:52
  And then you just have your question that way.
• 5:54
  I know it's a question. Um and again, no slander, right?
• 6:01
  No. No, scoffing, right?
• 6:05
  None of that. I don't I don't do good with
• 6:07
  that. I don't like that.
• 6:10
  And I'll even go as far as to say.
• 6:12
  It is my subjective opinion. I do not like that's just one of
• 6:17
  my pet peeves. I cannot stand scoffing.
• 6:19
  Okay. If you're trying to make a
• 6:22
  point, right? And you got to be a little bit
• 6:24
  hyperbolic or anything like that, then that's fine.
• 6:28
  But see. Yeah, cool.
• 6:34
  Thank you. That's great. yeah, I so, I
• 6:41
  think that You know. Again with atheism, okay?
• 6:46
  When if if atheism cannot get you to a thriving Society, okay?
• 6:52
  And you talk to any atheist and they'll say oh yes, I love
• 6:56
  everybody, right? We love people.
• 6:58
  You know, we want to see, you know, the Earth Thrive, right?
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  We want to see lives Thrive and everything like that and I would
• 7:06
  agree with them. That's one thing that we can
• 7:08
  agree on is that that's what I want, right?
• 7:10
  I want a society, the Thrive, right?
• 7:13
  I want us to live in harmony. It's all well and good.
• 7:17
  However, I don't believe that what they?
• 7:22
  You know, quote unquote, don't believe, right?
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  Because atheism is not a belief system which It has baggage,
• 7:32
  right? So the lack of belief.
• 7:36
  Okay, brings on other belief systems so that's baggage.
• 7:40
  Okay so the disbelief in God that brings on baggage for you
• 7:45
  to have to deal with right? You have to deal with that as a
• 7:47
  as an atheist and so when it comes to Their baggage, right?
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  Their system. Okay, they don't like the word
• 7:58
  beliefs. I just take that out.
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  The system and their system. It does not get to a thriving
• 8:06
  Society. Because it's all just
• 8:09
  subjective. It's all just a bunch of people
• 8:10
  running around with their own opinions and feelings.
• 8:13
  And that's not the way things are ran because rather not I
• 8:17
  believe in the Bible rather not I'm a Christian that does not
• 8:20
  change that. God is who he is.
• 8:23
  Okay. And that's not just.
• 8:24
  So I actually saw somebody, I mean I've gotten a lot of
• 8:29
  different people coming on here and giving their two cents and
• 8:34
  that's fantastic. And that's what I want you to
• 8:35
  do. Right?
• 8:36
  Let's let's keep the ball rolling.
• 8:37
  Right. Let's keep conversating.
• 8:38
  I have not Um, I have not tried not to respond, right?
• 8:43
  I've tried not to respond when it comes to these recent
• 8:47
  comments because I just want you to get it out right?
• 8:49
  And just get it out, lay it down on the table and we'll talk
• 8:52
  about it on here. And so, when it comes to like I
• 8:57
  saw somebody, And they were basically like, you know,
• 9:00
  Christianity is a subjective belief because, you know, it all
• 9:04
  depends on what you believe. So, what you believe is the
• 9:08
  Christian belief and that's what, you know, that's what you
• 9:10
  go off of, and that's subjective.
• 9:12
  Well the belief maybe. Yeah, I'm gay.
• 9:15
  I'm giving you that the belief itself.
• 9:17
  My belief in the Eternal God. That is my belief.
• 9:22
  Okay, so I guess you can call that subjective because that's
• 9:25
  my opinion, that's my feeling, that's what I believe.
• 9:28
  However, rather not, that's true.
• 9:32
  Rather not I believe in God, rather not that's subjectivity.
• 9:35
  Meet my belief in God, that does not at all change.
• 9:40
  The truth of what God says. Okay.
• 9:43
  And if the Bible is exactly what it claims to be which is the
• 9:47
  word of God. And that means that's what God
• 9:51
  Said, So it doesn't base off of my opinion.
• 9:54
  It doesn't base off of my belief or any other Christians believe.
• 9:58
  Or Acceptance in the word of God or anything else, right?
• 10:02
  None of that matters. What matters in the whole flow
• 10:06
  of things and the whole system of things, okay?
• 10:09
  if you take what the Bible says and you put it on the table,
• 10:13
  without anybody believing in it It stands on its own.
• 10:18
  And that is objectivity. Okay, that is what I'm saying
• 10:22
  here. Okay.
• 10:25
  What's going on? Um, Yes.
• 10:29
  Okay let's go. All right.
• 10:32
  So, we got a few Christians in here.
• 10:33
  That's great. I'll be there in an hour.
• 10:39
  Yes, please do. Okay.
• 10:40
  And I have a great Bible study. Okay, I would love to when you
• 10:45
  when you come on here. I would love to hear what you'll
• 10:48
  talk about. I'd be great.
• 10:51
  Yes, hop on whenever you want to it doesn't matter.
• 10:54
  Let's go, let's talk about it. I don't think I haven't seen any
• 10:58
  atheists pop up yet, on in the comments. so if you're an
• 11:04
  atheist and you come on, Yeah, just just look you don't have to
• 11:10
  come on. It's it's easier to talk to
• 11:12
  somebody if you're on but if you don't want to and you just want
• 11:16
  to you know talk on the comment section.
• 11:18
  Listen to it. You know what I mean?
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  If you're an atheist and you don't like what I'm saying,
• 11:24
  Object right? I object your honor, right?
• 11:28
  So, anyway, this right here, this this Bible.
• 11:32
  Okay. Rather not you or me.
• 11:35
  Believe in this It still says what it says.
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  Okay, no matter if I believe it, no matter if you believe it, it
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  doesn't matter. So that subjectivity in our
• 11:46
  belief system and what we believe That doesn't lay on
• 11:50
  this. That does not prove or even, it
• 11:55
  does not say that this is true or false, rather not I believe
• 11:58
  in it. okay, so if any atheists today, Tonight which I hope and
• 12:04
  pray that all of them come to Christ, okay.
• 12:07
  Um, that's my subjectivity. That is my feeling.
• 12:11
  That is what I think that is what I want to believe.
• 12:14
  Okay, now I know just based off of my own my own, you know, my
• 12:23
  own, I guess you can call it. My experience.
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  There it is. My experience, right?
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  My experience and what I have seen and what I have right, this
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  has testified about Jesus Christ to me.
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  And I I try to share the gospel. Okay?
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  That is my subjectivity. That is my opinion.
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  Okay, that's me. This stands on its own.
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  This Bible. Sorry, this Bible stands on its
• 13:00
  own. It doesn't matter again it
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  doesn't matter if I believe in it or not.
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  It doesn't matter if any atheist drop the atheism and they come
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  to Christ tonight. Praise God.
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  If that does happen. That's still doesn't change what
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  this says. This says what it says it is
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  written. Okay, and so if it is written,
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  it doesn't matter about my subjectivity, this right here is
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  objective truths. Okay.
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  And you just take out the truth part.
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  Okay, this is something. This is objective.
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  This is objective. Why?
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  Because it is written. It's not just somebody's
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  opinion. All right, it's not just
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  somebody's thought process. This, this Bible.
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  Okay. It claims to be the word of God.
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  It cleans to be the Breath of God.
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  Okay. Second Timothy 3:16.
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  All right, all scripture is God breathed God breathed right.
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  That's what it claims. So if it's true and if we, if we
• 14:10
  do, all the evidence is and all that stuff that we dated back,
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  okay? We can look at the evidence and
• 14:16
  we can see that this Bible. Is pretty clear, okay?
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  And if it's clear, then that's what makes it objective, okay?
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  So again, rather not, if I believe it it doesn't matter.
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  Okay, it matters. What is written?
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  Okay, and that is what makes it objective.
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  Doesn't matter about me or you. It matters about what it says.
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  Okay. So if it says, when it says, if
• 14:43
  the Bible says what it says, and that's pretty objective.
• 14:45
  Okay, that's that's pretty cut and dry, right?
• 14:48
  So I talked to two guys, right? Cm and Mr. Hyde.
• 14:54
  Okay. The other, the other night
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  believe it was either last week or two weeks ago, I don't
• 14:59
  remember. There's a great conversation,
• 15:01
  great conversation. But um, what what it really
• 15:05
  boiled down to was that, you know, we looked at we we really
• 15:08
  honed in on one part of the law, just one little, one little snip
• 15:14
  bit of the lawn and huge law, okay?
• 15:17
  Huge Bible, it's all full of commands, Okay?
• 15:21
  But we looked at one. Okay, we looked at one moral
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  command, okay? and when it says, is that, if
• 15:30
  you murder somebody Then you. Shall die.
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  You shall be put to death, okay? By the gut, the governing
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  authorities will and and society and everything else will deem
• 15:45
  you guilty? And if they deem, you guilty.
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  And again if they do with the other what they are the part of
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  law says is the two to three Witnesses.
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  Okay and all. So don't verify falls witness.
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  If you put all that together, Put them in the court of law. if
• 16:00
  that person is guilty, then what does the Bible say should
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  happen? They shall be put to death.
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  That's what it says. There is no changing it.
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  And has not been changed. Okay.
• 16:17
  So it says what it says, and if that's pretty cut and dry, okay,
• 16:22
  one of them, I forget who it was.
• 16:24
  I'm not gonna call anybody out, but they did say that you can
• 16:27
  create a law. Around that, okay.
• 16:32
  And the rest of the Bible is pretty clear just like that
• 16:34
  pretty cut and dry. Okay?
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  So the whole conversation boiled down to, okay, there's so many
• 16:42
  different interpretations of the Bible.
• 16:43
  There's so many different people that can come up with so many
• 16:46
  different things and so I think. I think I shut that down pretty
• 16:53
  pretty good when it comes to that because I asked him, I
• 16:55
  said, look How else can you how else can you interpret this?
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  And I read it. Just one little verse.
• 17:01
  How else can you? Can you do that?
• 17:05
  Okay, it tried. But the rest of the Bible
• 17:09
  answered their questions, right? And so that's what I'm saying so
• 17:12
  you can you can keep reading and if you keep reading Then then
• 17:18
  it'll open your eyes. Okay, everything is pretty like
• 17:21
  everything is already written. Okay, everything. okay, so if
• 17:26
  you have a question, About like what to do about something.
• 17:30
  Okay. It might be a little, you know,
• 17:33
  because you got to go into cultural.
• 17:36
  What Nicole said back then and, and the way it was back then and
• 17:41
  everything else. But the principal of it.
• 17:45
  Still stands. Okay, the principle of it.
• 17:47
  So again, if you murder somebody Then they, then they shall die.
• 17:52
  They shall be put to death. Pretty cut and dry.
• 17:55
  Okay, pretty cut and dry. so, um, Yeah, I mean if anybody
• 18:00
  wants to add anything, that'd be great.
• 18:01
  And so I think when you take that, okay?
• 18:07
  And you say, This is objective. Okay.
• 18:13
  I can't really argue with that. Because what else is there?
• 18:16
  It's just a bunch of, like I said, right?
• 18:18
  When you got atheism, okay? When you got Darwinism right?
• 18:26
  You got the evolution type thing?
• 18:29
  You believe in evolution. Okay.
• 18:30
  And what it actually is And you believe that all things are
• 18:36
  subjective. Then you put all three of these
• 18:39
  together and what do you get? Well, you get a bunch of Apes on
• 18:43
  the tree. Hurling dung and each other.
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  That's what this is. okay, that's what atheism gets you And
• 18:54
  that's why I think it's inconsistent because atheism.
• 18:57
  Cannot answer the call. To.
• 19:01
  I care about that person. Why do you care about that
• 19:06
  person? That they're no different than
• 19:09
  rocks. Okay, I in their mind.
• 19:13
  I am no different than that. Monkey over there.
• 19:15
  I am no different than that, than that, that car out there.
• 19:18
  Like What does it matter? Nothing matters.
• 19:22
  Right. I'm just like that tree outside.
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  Nothing matters. Okay.
• 19:25
  And the analogy that I always like to use is you know, nobody
• 19:29
  cries when a rock tumbles and hits another rock.
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  Does that rock say ouch? No it can't speak.
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  Okay, it's not a it's not a person.
• 19:39
  Okay, cannot speak. So what is the difference?
• 19:45
  Where the sentence from fish, man, it doesn't matter.
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  Okay, it doesn't matter. Nothing matters to an atheist
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  nothing and they will tell you that there is no objective
• 19:57
  truth. So oh Lord, how do you know
• 20:00
  anything? Well we test it, we see it.
• 20:03
  We do these things and we do all these things and it's like,
• 20:05
  okay, well, how do you still? You don't have truth.
• 20:09
  So how do you, how can you sit there and tell me that I'm
• 20:11
  wrong? You can't.
• 20:13
  Okay, you cannot tell me that I'm wrong because there is no
• 20:19
  right and wrong with you. In your system, there is no
• 20:23
  right and wrong. Why?
• 20:27
  Because we all come we all descendants from bacteria.
• 20:31
  Okay, we're no different than that, rock falling off and
• 20:34
  hitting another rock that there is no difference.
• 20:35
  So, when an atheist looks at the screen, it looks at the news,
• 20:39
  okay, they turn on the TV, they look at the news.
• 20:43
  Why do they shed a tear at all the suffering?
• 20:46
  Christianity has an answer for that.
• 20:47
  We have an answer for that. God said.
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  We have an answer for that and we know what to look forward to
• 20:56
  after the suffering. They do not.
• 21:01
  They don't have a single thing to look forward to nothing.
• 21:06
  Okay. Oh we're just going.
• 21:08
  We're just gonna live until we you know one day we pass away
• 21:12
  and then You know. Hopefully my my kids are able to
• 21:17
  do what I did and I just hope so and all this and no, you don't
• 21:22
  get that with Christianity. Okay, we all die.
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  And to the dust, we shall return.
• 21:28
  Where you get that from you, get that from the Bible, but here's
• 21:31
  the thing. What happens to this Mortal
• 21:33
  body? It's it's turned to dust again
• 21:36
  it returns back to the dust. What does our spirit do?
• 21:39
  What does our souls do? We go and live in eternity
• 21:44
  forever. If you choose Christ, that's
• 21:48
  what a Christian belief is. So when Paul says in Romans 8,
• 21:51
  right? He says nothing nothing Can
• 21:56
  compare. All right, to the suffering.
• 22:01
  That we have here. Nothing can compare.
• 22:05
  To the glory that we will soon receive.
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  Not think. The suffering means.
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  Nothing. Why?
• 22:16
  Because we have a hope. We have a hope.
• 22:21
  The atheist is not. Okay.
• 22:26
  They don't. Because they don't believe in
• 22:29
  that. And that is the lack of belief.
• 22:31
  So, if you don't have, if you don't believe in God, and guess
• 22:35
  what you all. So don't believe in.
• 22:37
  You don't believe in life, after death.
• 22:41
  Okay. Seems kind of like baggage to
• 22:44
  me, right? So, if you don't believe in God,
• 22:47
  the lack of belief, right? Oh, atheism is not a belief
• 22:50
  system. It's just a lack of belief, it's
• 22:53
  just a lack. Right.
• 22:55
  Okay, how about this? If you don't have God, then you
• 22:59
  don't have an afterlife. You know.
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  If you don't believe in anything, then guess what else
• 23:08
  you got? You ain't got objective truth.
• 23:10
  That's a belief system. That's baggage.
• 23:14
  All right, if you don't have that, then guess what else you
• 23:17
  don't have? You don't have objective,
• 23:19
  objective truth. You don't have objective
• 23:21
  morality, you don't have anything objective, nothing is
• 23:24
  real. Nothing's real.
• 23:28
  You see where I'm getting at? Do you see where I'm getting at
• 23:32
  all? You have is the material, the
• 23:35
  material round. But then they want to look at
• 23:39
  gravity. Oh gravity holds me down, that's
• 23:43
  great. Okay.
• 23:43
  Well can you see gravity? No All right, can you touch it?
• 23:49
  No. Can you put gravity in a test
• 23:52
  tube and shake it around until it changes color know.
• 23:56
  You can't. Why?
• 23:59
  Because it's the Unseen Realm. That's passed the material.
• 24:06
  Okay. Yeah, exactly.
• 24:12
  So again. The baggage is what Falls after
• 24:17
  the disbelief. Because everything that comes
• 24:21
  with Christianity, everything that comes with God.
• 24:24
  With a belief of God, everything that falls in line with it.
• 24:27
  You have objective. You have what we believe is.
• 24:30
  Objective truth, okay? You have objective morality.
• 24:33
  Okay, you have right and wrong objectively.
• 24:36
  Okay, not just somebody's opinion.
• 24:38
  All right, you have total meaning.
• 24:43
  Of suffering, right? You know, what's going to come
• 24:47
  after the suffering? You know what, it's for, okay?
• 24:49
  Because the Bible says that we suffer for Christ's sake, Okay.
• 24:53
  And also says in Romans 8 and 17, it says, if then heirs Then
• 24:59
  Heirs of God and heirs with Christ.
• 25:03
  Assuming provided it says, provided we suffer for him.
• 25:09
  So, our suffering. Brings us the future Glory.
• 25:14
  okay, so all of this, all of this that Christianity brings
• 25:18
  you, if you don't have it, then that's a baggage, you got The
• 25:23
  baggage comes from the disbelief.
• 25:25
  If you don't believe in God, then you don't have objectivity.
• 25:29
  You don't have any kind of morals.
• 25:31
  Okay. You just have your opinion and
• 25:34
  then my neighbor's opinion. It doesn't matter.
• 25:37
  Okay, well, you fight about all day.
• 25:40
  It ain't gonna change the thing. Okay, you don't have purpose.
• 25:44
  No purpose. Oh well I can create my own
• 25:47
  purpose. Okay, well, fine, whatever.
• 25:49
  But that doesn't matter to nobody else.
• 25:52
  Okay, that doesn't matter to nobody else.
• 25:54
  That's your own subjective truth.
• 25:57
  Okay. My Truth Versus your truth.
• 26:01
  So, what if my truth is yours is alive, it's still true.
• 26:05
  Come on. No.
• 26:07
  Okay, so all of these things that that fall in line with your
• 26:11
  disbelieved, that's what baggage is You have baggage. whether you
• 26:15
  want to believe it or not, Okay. And that's Mr. Hyde by the way,
• 26:19
  what's going on, man? Great to have you.
• 26:22
  I don't know if you're still in, but great to have you.
• 26:25
  Um, so, I'm not much of an iced coffee person but that that's
• 26:36
  pretty good. That's pretty good.
• 26:37
  And and one one quick thing now, I want you as hot coffee.
• 26:44
  Like, anytime other. Than.
• 26:49
  It lasting longer, okay? Because the iced coffee lasts
• 26:53
  longer than than anything else. Let's go on, man.
• 26:56
  Yes, okay. um, and he got the link in.
• 27:01
  Okay, I'll post it again. No problem.
• 27:06
  And, and I just want to say this real quick, okay?
• 27:08
  Whenever anybody's going to talk or anything like that, if we're
• 27:12
  gonna have a conversation. I like, As long as I'm saying
• 27:20
  man let's go but see that's the only thing like the iced coffee.
• 27:24
  That lasts longer and plus it's it's great.
• 27:27
  It's it's better in the in the hot sun but yeah man I'll take
• 27:30
  hot coffee anytime other than that.
• 27:33
  Okay. Yeah.
• 27:34
  So anyway, if anybody wants to come on, that's great.
• 27:37
  Right? Um, but like, whenever You know,
• 27:41
  I start talking about it and get passionate and everything else,
• 27:44
  okay. I'm not trying to be hateful or
• 27:45
  anything like that. Okay, so I'm just gonna put that
• 27:47
  out there. if somebody comes on and they say something I'm just
• 27:53
  like, well remember you know I'm just I'm just passionate okay so
• 27:56
  just Try to toss that aside, okay, I'm not trying to be
• 27:59
  hostile or anything else. so, I try to do with the Bible says,
• 28:05
  and that's in First Peter 36, 315 and it says, first put
• 28:11
  Christ, set aside Christ as Lord in your hearts and and answer.
• 28:17
  I always be ready to give a defense to give an apology and
• 28:21
  Polly Gia in the Greek. A reasonable defense to the hope
• 28:26
  that it was in. That is in you but do it was all
• 28:30
  gentlemen this and Respect. And so that's what I try to do.
• 28:34
  Um, I'm human, I stumbled just like everybody else.
• 28:38
  So just keep that in mind when we're talking.
• 28:40
  Okay, I'm not trying to. I'm, I am trying to be
• 28:43
  hospitable. I'm trying to be gentle.
• 28:47
  I'm trying to be kind, right? But the Lord is doing a work in
• 28:51
  me. As he is with every other
• 28:53
  Christian. Okay?
• 28:54
  Um, so anyway um Yeah. So again like when it comes to
• 28:59
  and this is what the the whole conversation is, Right,
• 29:02
  atheists? Atheism.
• 29:04
  It should be atheism versus Christianity.
• 29:07
  Okay, that's what it should be. And so atheism versus
• 29:12
  Christianity, okay? Which one can get you to the
• 29:16
  better thriving Society. I thought that was what we were
• 29:21
  trying to do. Ultimately, I thought that that
• 29:25
  was what we were all trying to get to.
• 29:27
  Apparently, to some people were not.
• 29:31
  Because atheism can't get you there.
• 29:33
  And that's not what it's for. But atheism is the lack of
• 29:37
  belief. So again with the baggage right,
• 29:42
  if you, if you don't have God and you disbelieve in God, then
• 29:46
  everything that comes with God. You don't have Okay, so that
• 29:50
  that's what. Man.
• 29:53
  What's his name? I keep forgetting his name.
• 29:55
  Richard Dawkins. All right.
• 29:57
  Richard Dawkins is a it's an atheist through and through,
• 29:59
  right? He's one of the most famous
• 30:01
  atheists. Crazy, in my opinion.
• 30:05
  But anyway, um but somehow in his brain, he thinks that he can
• 30:10
  be a cultural Christian. Um, That can't work.
• 30:15
  Okay. Because again without God you
• 30:18
  can't have it. Okay.
• 30:19
  That's basically like saying I don't know.
• 30:24
  You can't have iced coffee without ice.
• 30:27
  You know what I mean? So anyway, um, What's going on,
• 30:31
  man? Can you hear me?
• 30:37
  Thank you muted. There I am.
• 30:40
  Hey. All right.
• 30:41
  Let's go on, man. Good evening.
• 30:43
  How's it going? Pretty good man, good to see
• 30:46
  you. Oh, cool.
• 30:47
  Cool. Cool.
• 30:48
  Go to see you, man. What you got, bro?
• 30:57
  Good question. Oh, where, where?
• 30:59
  Where were we? What I guess we're back on doing
• 31:04
  the morality. I, I still can't.
• 31:08
  I mean we can we can go to anything else that anyone, right
• 31:12
  anyone that that you want to talk about is fine with me.
• 31:16
  Oh no. I'm I'm so tired.
• 31:17
  I'm barely a happy man. I'll go wherever we.
• 31:26
  Wherever you want to go on this one.
• 31:27
  Okay. well, I do know you do morality, you know, for quite
• 31:34
  often but I just can't see how God has anything.
• 31:41
  Inherently to do with it. Okay, and we see I know we and I
• 31:48
  don't want to jump right into it but maybe we'll talk about what
• 31:51
  objective and subjective actually are.
• 31:53
  But I'll go with the running terminology.
• 31:57
  Okay. Um, Well, you know, just like a
• 32:01
  you know, when you go to the to what the the defined right, what
• 32:06
  would what subjectivity and objectivity is defined objective
• 32:11
  is like without feeling without emotion without whatever.
• 32:15
  It's it just stands by itself, right?
• 32:17
  It is truth. Okay.
• 32:18
  And then subjective is basically like it feels on somebody's
• 32:23
  opinion, somebody's feeling what they want.
• 32:26
  Um so it just comes from somebody.
• 32:29
  So you know me and you we disagree on certain things,
• 32:35
  right? And so that is our subjectivity,
• 32:38
  okay? But what's stands in between us
• 32:40
  That's objective. Okay, so what are we trying to
• 32:43
  get to? We're trying to, you know
• 32:45
  objective, right? We're trying to get to objective
• 32:47
  truth. What is the truth of all things?
• 32:50
  Or at least that's where I'm trying to get to.
• 32:53
  So yeah, yeah, I mean, what, what is right and what is wrong
• 32:56
  objectively, right? And so that's what I'm trying to
• 32:59
  get to. And so I think when you said you
• 33:01
  don't see How God has anything to do with it?
• 33:05
  And just like what we talked about the other day would see
• 33:06
  him. I think that's exactly where God
• 33:11
  comes in because I believe God has spoken and so if God has
• 33:16
  spoken in his written down then that's pretty subjective
• 33:18
  objective. In my opinion. and that's my
• 33:21
  subjective opinion, but I think that the Bible stands by itself,
• 33:26
  Okay. Okay.
• 33:27
  Well, that was, that was more and More in line with what I
• 33:32
  was, what I thought that was kind of cool.
• 33:34
  Um okay. Well, I'm sure you look forward
• 33:39
  to and expect Muslims have a way of interpreting things, they got
• 33:44
  stuff. They wrote it down and Mormons,
• 33:46
  and yada yada yada, right? And then they believe it, of
• 33:50
  course, they believe it. So, Well, I will say that, you
• 33:57
  know. Okay.
• 33:59
  Let's say Mormons right, Mormon Mormonism, right?
• 34:02
  Ultimately comes from what the Bible says, Okay.
• 34:05
  So You know, Joseph Smith was con artist.
• 34:09
  Okay, that's proven. All right, his family was a con
• 34:12
  family, right? Like he was pretty great at
• 34:15
  telling stories right now when he was little.
• 34:17
  He would keep everybody entertained at night because
• 34:19
  they didn't have television and have anything like that.
• 34:21
  So they all You know, were entertained by his storytelling.
• 34:25
  And so he was great at telling stories, right?
• 34:28
  And they were all entertaining. So that's basically what
• 34:31
  happened, right? So what he did was, he took what
• 34:33
  he knew the Bible was saying All right, and then he turned a
• 34:37
  strict monotheism God. And changed it into a
• 34:41
  polytheism. God.
• 34:43
  And then you have a Pantheon of gods, hopefully that's the right
• 34:49
  word that he one of the one of the leading and most famous one
• 34:55
  of the prophets, Right? Said.
• 34:57
  And it's in the doctrine of covenants, he actually said
• 35:01
  this, he said that there is more Gods than there is matter.
• 35:06
  That's Mormonism. Okay.
• 35:07
  That is not Christianity. So you cannot put Christianity
• 35:11
  and what the Bible clearly says is where there's one God says,
• 35:15
  it's so many times, there's one God it's very Right.
• 35:18
  Very cut and dry but what he said Was like, he gave a, he
• 35:24
  gave a famous one of his very first.
• 35:28
  Big time speeches, right? Big time sermons.
• 35:30
  I guess you can call it and it's called The King Follett
• 35:32
  discourse. Go check it out.
• 35:33
  It's on the Latter-day Saints. Website.
• 35:37
  They got all of this stuff on there, so it's not hard to find.
• 35:40
  So what, what he did was he said that You have heard it said for
• 35:46
  many years that I have a printed.
• 35:49
  I don't know if I can find it, but he says that you have heard,
• 35:53
  it said that there is one God will.
• 35:54
  I am here to use the Bible Okay, to debunk that.
• 36:01
  And in that entire written speech, he doesn't even quote.
• 36:04
  One Bible verse Okay, so this one, I'm saying, so he, he
• 36:09
  twisted, okay, and makes it his own and then that's where
• 36:13
  Mormonism comes from. You can't have Mormonism.
• 36:14
  When the Book of Mormon and the Book of Mormon completely goes
• 36:18
  against what the Bible says, okay?
• 36:20
  So it does not aligned, they will say it does, but it does.
• 36:24
  Uh, and so anyway, um and then you know, you got the, you
• 36:29
  brought up Muslims, right? Well, Muslims come from the Old
• 36:33
  Testament, okay? They believe in the Old
• 36:35
  Testament, they believe in Jesus.
• 36:36
  They think that he was a great prophet, right?
• 36:39
  They don't believe he's the son of God.
• 36:44
  Clearly says that he is the Son of God in the scriptures.
• 36:47
  But they don't, they don't believe that.
• 36:50
  But if you look at so many different, so many different
• 36:54
  videos on YouTube and all that stuff.
• 36:56
  You can say you can see that if you go into the Quran, okay?
• 37:00
  If the Quran is true, okay, and if if Muslim what let's just
• 37:08
  say, okay, if the Quran is true, Then the Quran is also false.
• 37:15
  that that's a lot there, but if it's true, then it's false
• 37:19
  because it, it talks about the Scriptures, it literally says to
• 37:23
  go to the Bible In the Quran, it says test the Bible. it says,
• 37:28
  before you even look at the Quran, go to the Bible First.
• 37:32
  That's what it says. So obviously, they don't do
• 37:35
  that. Because if they did that then
• 37:37
  they would look at it and they would say, okay well this is and
• 37:39
  and there's so many different Muslims that's coming to the
• 37:41
  faith now, having dreams and stuff like that.
• 37:44
  So, um, that's how you can distinguish.
• 37:47
  There's many different ways to distinguish the different
• 37:49
  religions. It's not just like, oh, we got
• 37:51
  so many religions. So, how do we know which one's
• 37:53
  true? Well, we know which ones is true
• 37:55
  because we can test it So yeah, I know that was a lot.
• 38:02
  Well, know it well it sounds like you're you're method of
• 38:06
  testing is by comparing it to Christianity.
• 38:10
  What you believe and where it differs.
• 38:12
  Ah, that's where it's wrong. But the Well, because it tells
• 38:20
  that they tell us to do that, that Mormonism tells us to do
• 38:23
  that, the Quran tells us to do that.
• 38:25
  So that's what we do. And again, if it tells us to do
• 38:29
  that and we do it and it contradicts, then it's clearly
• 38:32
  false. Well but the Book of Mormon and
• 38:37
  famously the Quran. They both you know we'll say
• 38:43
  that oh well portions have been corrupted and that's why we're
• 38:47
  here. We're here to to fix what went
• 38:49
  wrong the last time and you know Chris you know the New Testament
• 38:53
  in part you know does does that and to in vary in degrees Um,
• 39:00
  but the fact is, it's, you know, and we'll just like, you were
• 39:03
  saying, oh well this is wrong with the Mormon, this is wrong
• 39:05
  with the Quran, yada yada, the, the Muslim, and the Mormon, and
• 39:11
  the Catholic, they're all sitting there with their list
• 39:13
  going and here's what's wrong with yours and so that doesn't
• 39:18
  really get us anywhere because that wasn't really the real
• 39:21
  point of comparison. The fact is everybody saying
• 39:25
  something. Everybody's got a name and
• 39:28
  that's as far as I can see. Everybody's at the same point,
• 39:32
  everybody's got the claim I'm looking for.
• 39:34
  Who can step over to that next point with a distinguishing
• 39:38
  point? Okay, well, it's basically like,
• 39:42
  I look at it like a tree, right? You got you got the stem?
• 39:46
  You got the root, right? And then it goes straight up and
• 39:48
  what happens in well, then you got Mormonism.
• 39:50
  That takes it all the way over here.
• 39:53
  But then the Bible stays up, right?
• 39:55
  And it stays straight. All right, but then you got
• 39:56
  Muslim that takes from the Old Testament and goes over here.
• 40:00
  All right, but then, it still goes straight.
• 40:02
  So what I'm saying here is that there's, they're different
• 40:04
  branches of what comes from the same route.
• 40:08
  Okay, but again. What aligns with this with this
• 40:12
  route. Okay.
• 40:14
  And and again, if we're testing other religions, then we have to
• 40:18
  test it in a religious way that makes sense.
• 40:20
  We atheism cannot touch This kind of testing, right?
• 40:26
  You can't because all there is is material.
• 40:30
  That's all there is and there's just subjectivity.
• 40:32
  There's just your opinion, versus my opinion, right?
• 40:36
  But what we're trying to say here, what we're trying to see
• 40:38
  is, did God actually say what he said.
• 40:42
  So we already with all the religions we already.
• 40:46
  Right, we all that's that's us saying.
• 40:49
  That there is a God. Or many gods, right?
• 40:53
  But when I'm saying here is that you cannot take away God and
• 40:57
  then try to prove all these different religions or try to
• 40:59
  test all these religions because that's not how that works.
• 41:02
  As basically like, you know, this is a terrible analogy.
• 41:07
  But this is basically like, okay, you're trying to prove
• 41:10
  that this iced coffee is cold, but you take away the cold
• 41:13
  element of it. So you take away what it
• 41:17
  actually is and then you try to take and push everything else on
• 41:22
  it and it doesn't work so you can't test that way.
• 41:27
  I know that's a terrible analogy and probably doesn't get us
• 41:29
  anywhere, but you can go in you, you, you you, you, you did lose
• 41:32
  me right before the analogy. And I'll be real honest, the
• 41:36
  analogy did not have, it wasn't good, I'm thinking of iced
• 41:43
  coffee. I will man.
• 41:47
  I mean it's not a bad thing to be fixed later on.
• 41:50
  I mean, it could worst things. I mean sure.
• 41:52
  You know. It could be interesting.
• 41:54
  It could be instant coffee for guys.
• 41:56
  All right. Yeah.
• 41:58
  Okay. Okay.
• 41:59
  Well, what was the thing? You were saying right?
• 42:01
  Before the the coffee thing? It was it was it was it was say
• 42:06
  it again. It, I tried to think about it
• 42:08
  and then the coffee blue it out. That's fine, that's fine.
• 42:12
  So I think it was um, that you can't you can't test religion
• 42:16
  without religious. Okay, okay, yes, okay, tell me
• 42:22
  what this concept means because that freezing is different from
• 42:27
  what you were saying and that didn't help.
• 42:29
  I don't know what you can't. Okay.
• 42:32
  Okay. Yeah you were saying you can't
• 42:34
  compare the other religion's without Without the element of
• 42:38
  God in the spiritual realm, right?
• 42:40
  Because all the other religions, right?
• 42:43
  They say that there's Angels, they say that there's Miracles.
• 42:46
  They say that there's all these different things, right?
• 42:48
  And they they all pin it on God. Okay.
• 42:51
  All religions, revolve around God so you can't take out.
• 42:54
  You can't take out the element of God and expect to get to.
• 42:58
  You know, what the religion is trying to say. so you have to,
• 43:03
  you have to assume there's a God in order for you to get to the
• 43:08
  religious texts and try to prove it or try to Disprove it really
• 43:12
  try to test it. Ah yeah okay I definitely
• 43:18
  disagree on that. If that's what this is rooted in
• 43:21
  me means, I don't have to assume the reality.
• 43:23
  I have to assume the concept. Of course I have to sure that's
• 43:27
  what we're talking. We're talking about a God thing.
• 43:29
  Okay? You know I'm going to work with
• 43:31
  his God concept and then okay we're talking about the
• 43:33
  Christian God. Okay.
• 43:34
  So I understand what parameters that works within.
• 43:37
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 43:37
  But I don't have to assume the reality of it to test your no no
• 43:41
  no, no. And I don't, okay.
• 43:45
  I was yeah. So I don't mean you have to, you
• 43:48
  know, believe that there's a God in order for you to do that.
• 43:50
  Okay, you're right you have to assume not the reality of God
• 43:55
  but you have to assume that The concept of it.
• 44:00
  And and of course the the possibility of it, Sure, yeah.
• 44:06
  Okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
• 44:07
  Yeah. So you don't have to become a,
• 44:09
  okay. You don't have to become a
• 44:10
  theist to be able to test what the Bible says.
• 44:13
  You know what I'm saying? Okay?
• 44:15
  That like I said, it was just clearing up what your verbiage
• 44:18
  was and you know what concept? You're trying to get across.
• 44:20
  Okay, cool because there I go. Yeah, yeah absolutely.
• 44:24
  Yeah, we have to keep the god Concept in any No matter who
• 44:29
  we're talking about it, it's a woman in Hindu blah, blah, blah,
• 44:34
  right, right, okay, okay yeah, yeah.
• 44:37
  So we got somebody else. Well, what's going on?
• 44:43
  Can you hear me? Hey, I can't.
• 44:45
  Can you hear me? I can.
• 44:48
  Yes. Oh good.
• 44:51
  What, what do you call? What side are you on here?
• 44:56
  I'm a Christian theist, but I don't think, I don't think I
• 45:01
  agree with everything you say but I'm just kind of.
• 45:04
  Yeah. Yeah, that's that's fine.
• 45:06
  And I actually just joined like two minutes.
• 45:09
  Like I haven't seen a lot of the conversations, so I'm just kind
• 45:13
  of. Yeah.
• 45:13
  You came on as soon as I brought up that terrible coffee analogy,
• 45:17
  Well yeah I mean I wasn't that was kind of the first thing I
• 45:21
  saw so yeah okay well that that's what that that's why you
• 45:25
  disagree okay? Yeah Okay, no, I'm kidding.
• 45:29
  Um, okay. So what do you got?
• 45:31
  What do you want to bring? I was just kind of gonna listen
• 45:36
  to your conversation looks like Mr. Hyde is a skeptic of some
• 45:39
  sort and is uh perhaps I am a former Christian, a non-believer
• 45:49
  unbeliever. So are you like an atheist or
• 45:54
  just a Don Christian? Well, I like that.
• 45:58
  I do sometimes intentionally avoid labels, because once I
• 46:03
  accept a label, I accept, whatever package make him along
• 46:08
  with it, whether I agree with it or not.
• 46:09
  So, thank you for saying that Mr. Hyde.
• 46:12
  I didn't mean to cut you off. Thank you for saying that.
• 46:14
  That's why I was saying early. Was that anything that you
• 46:18
  believe in or disbelieve in? There's baggage that comes along
• 46:21
  with it and that's the title of it, right?
• 46:23
  So if you're an atheist, then there's baggage that comes along
• 46:25
  with that and really anything else.
• 46:29
  Well, I'm referring to specifically the label of
• 46:31
  atheist or the label of anything.
• 46:33
  The labor of liberal or something like that.
• 46:36
  I don't like, I would, I guess. Go ahead.
• 46:41
  Do you believe that God a God or God's exists or do you quote,
• 46:47
  lack that belief? I do not believe any God is
• 46:53
  real. There are some I specifically
• 46:56
  think are not real. So okay. so, the idea of a
• 47:03
  conscious creator of the universe you reject I, Noticed.
• 47:12
  Right. Yes, yes.
• 47:15
  Okay. So, the idea that some God is
• 47:19
  communicating through Jesus is obviously a non-starter for you.
• 47:24
  Yeah, that would not be the. The proof biblical proof text
• 47:28
  would not be the way to go. Okay, so it makes I don't want
• 47:34
  to hijack your channel, so I don't know if he No, not this.
• 47:37
  What this is about man we were supposed to just talk about it
• 47:40
  so yeah. So so yeah there the classical
• 47:43
  approach to apologetics and those are presuppositional
• 47:46
  approach and I want to say that I fully reject
• 47:49
  presuppositionalism, I think that if you're trying to reach
• 47:53
  people, then you need to operate on their terms. so I don't think
• 47:57
  presupposition is particularly effective in reaching, atheists,
• 48:01
  and non-believers, Okay. So I think that the, I think the
• 48:06
  idea of God needs to be established on its own Merit
• 48:08
  outside of any religious perspective.
• 48:11
  Okay. Personally.
• 48:13
  Okay. Okay.
• 48:13
  All right. So I get where you're at.
• 48:15
  Um, I would say that the gospel comes first.
• 48:23
  That's really it. So but the gospel, the gospel is
• 48:28
  a message that's based on the premise that there's a God who's
• 48:31
  offering the gospel to people. So if they don't believe in
• 48:34
  that, if they don't believe in that God then they're not
• 48:36
  they're going to just miss the gut whatever gospel you're
• 48:39
  offering them. Well not exactly because if you
• 48:41
  think about it right? We believe in the spiritual
• 48:43
  realm. Do we not?
• 48:45
  Yes, I do. So, do you believe that God does
• 48:47
  the work? What work?
• 48:51
  The work of salvation. I believe God chooses the people
• 48:57
  he wants to save. So are you a calvinist?
• 49:00
  Know, I'm not so you're not reformed at all?
• 49:03
  No, I'm not. Okay, I'm not either.
• 49:05
  So there you go. High five.
• 49:06
  Okay. Okay, so um, okay good.
• 49:11
  So we're on the same ground here, so I believe that God I
• 49:14
  agree with you. I believe that God chooses
• 49:16
  because it says in John 6, right?
• 49:18
  That That the father, literally draws drags in the Greek.
• 49:24
  Somebody and then but it's in my opinion it's their choice to
• 49:28
  either look upon the Sun or not. And so with that in mind,
• 49:33
  alright. What is the drawing of the
• 49:35
  Dragon? Well, it all comes from the
• 49:38
  hearing of the Gospel, the word of God.
• 49:40
  So there has to be presuppositions there in order
• 49:44
  for you to even have the gospel in the first place.
• 49:49
  So that that's where I'm coming from.
• 49:52
  Maybe, maybe convincing the person.
• 49:55
  The non-believer that God exists in the first place.
• 49:58
  Is part of the gospel because you're getting them into a place
• 50:01
  where they are willing to see the gospel of something that
• 50:03
  might actually be a real thing. But do you think that that might
• 50:06
  be stripping, the the gospel of its power?
• 50:09
  Because what does what does Romans 1:16 say that?
• 50:13
  That the gospel is the power unto God for salvation.
• 50:17
  So the gospel is the power of Salvation that God gives to his
• 50:22
  to his Believers to his ministers.
• 50:25
  To spread the word and to change lives and he ultimately changes
• 50:30
  the lives. But it's through the gospel and
• 50:33
  through the hearing, right? Faith comes by what hearing so
• 50:36
  all these things, right, who how do they know if they haven't
• 50:40
  heard the gospel, right? So the gospel comes first.
• 50:44
  So if it isn't for it, if me as a Christian, if I don't go out
• 50:48
  and preach the gospel, I have nothing.
• 50:51
  I don't have anything. That that's that's just where
• 50:56
  I'm coming from. And I think we can reach in the
• 50:58
  same way. Go ahead.
• 51:00
  Other than just, for the sake of throwing it out there Paul did
• 51:03
  say he became all things to all people to those without the law,
• 51:07
  he became such with the law that so there is a point to be made
• 51:13
  on meeting people where they are.
• 51:15
  Well yeah, I mean I I'm not saying like but here's the thing
• 51:18
  so I I come in, I come into your element but yeah, I bring the
• 51:23
  gospel with it. So, you have and both.
• 51:27
  You don't have one without the other.
• 51:30
  Well, of course well, and, you know, my wouldn't expect you to
• 51:34
  come any other way. And that's, you know, Right?
• 51:36
  What new you are, you know, right?
• 51:38
  Like what? What, in the context of that was
• 51:41
  Paul talking about? Right?
• 51:42
  That's that's in Romans, okay? I think I believe it is.
• 51:45
  It's I think so. Um, so when I think it's in
• 51:49
  Corinthians, maybe, yeah. Yes, that is true.
• 51:53
  Okay. Yes, thank you for that.
• 51:56
  Um, so when the, the context of what he's trying to say, right?
• 51:59
  Is that what was Paul's ultimate goal.
• 52:03
  What was his job? His job was to bring his many as
• 52:09
  possible. Yeah.
• 52:13
  Because he wasn't supposed to reach the Jews.
• 52:15
  That was the other Apostles job. All right, and we see that in
• 52:19
  Galatians 2. All right, so well the apostles
• 52:23
  gave Paul the right hand of fellowship.
• 52:24
  And then right, they issued him out to go preach the gospel and
• 52:30
  bring in the Gentiles. And so what he saying is he
• 52:34
  became like them in every aspect in order.
• 52:39
  To bring them the what gospel. So, you have both.
• 52:45
  Are you saying in specifically saying that he did this thing in
• 52:50
  this one capacity? Uh, in apostleship for the
• 52:55
  Gentiles because I always took it as more of a just general
• 52:59
  what I do in life thing, almost like a, like a, like a proverb
• 53:04
  to live by, you know, wherever someone is, I meet them.
• 53:08
  So that when I think at the end of that he gives, what is
• 53:12
  objective is. So that I might Didn't he
• 53:16
  conclude by saying that I might save as many or win some or I
• 53:19
  forget I could be totally wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah.
• 53:21
  That's that's right. But here's the thing we can take
• 53:24
  an example of like acts 17. Where Paul goes to Mars Hill.
• 53:29
  Okay, and he goes to to these on non-believers that are that are
• 53:34
  literally worshiping idols. And and into the in the
• 53:38
  description of them in scripture, rather is the aunt to
• 53:42
  the unknown. God.
• 53:42
  Yeah. And then Paul goes to them and
• 53:45
  says You don't have to be, you know, I know of a God, I know
• 53:50
  God. Right, he's not unknown.
• 53:52
  So I'm gonna tell you who he is by what sharing the gospel.
• 53:57
  And then, that's exactly what he does.
• 53:59
  He gives the gospel. And so that that's kind of like
• 54:03
  the example. Of what was the Gospel at that
• 54:06
  time? That Jesus died and Resurrected.
• 54:12
  That he's the Messiah. That he's also, I mean, he's got
• 54:16
  yeah, well, I'm thinking about it right now.
• 54:19
  Like I don't know if I can, I can present anything.
• 54:22
  For this, but it seems like when Paul was talking about the
• 54:25
  gospel, he is always referring to two things, Revelation, and
• 54:29
  scripture, which would be the Old Testament. and so, well, I
• 54:36
  mean and you also got to take into mind that the New Testament
• 54:39
  was being written. Yeah.
• 54:41
  Point. So they didn't have the New
• 54:42
  Testament that point they were living out the New Testament.
• 54:45
  Exactly. And it was being written at that
• 54:48
  time so that they so yes, the revelation of what they had was
• 54:53
  basically what Jesus did and his life.
• 54:56
  Which was spread abroad without even having the gospel at that
• 54:59
  time, right? So the gospel Lamarque you know,
• 55:03
  we we can attest to that the gospel of Mark is Pretty close
• 55:07
  to the first one. That was written.
• 55:09
  Yeah. And so they didn't even have
• 55:12
  that at the time. Paul didn't have the gospel of
• 55:14
  Mark. All right, but he heard what the
• 55:17
  other apostles were telling him that were the eyewitnesses. and
• 55:20
  so, I mean, he knew the scriptures backwards and
• 55:23
  forwards, right? He was the Pharisee of all
• 55:25
  Pharisees, right? He, you know, he he said in the
• 55:28
  flesh, I can boast better and greater than they can the super
• 55:33
  Apostles, right? That they were saying the super
• 55:35
  apostles. and so, um, he was at, like, He knew the he knew the
• 55:41
  Messianic prophecies. Okay.
• 55:43
  And when he saw Christ, And Christ blinded him.
• 55:47
  Okay. The sheer Glory of Christ
• 55:50
  blinded him. He fell off his horse.
• 55:54
  All right, and then he said he says that he going through his
• 55:58
  mind through the Old Testament through the, through the
• 56:00
  scriptures and His eyes were being open without his eye
• 56:05
  without his physical eye's. So he was he was able to see
• 56:09
  without seeing it. If that makes sense, physically.
• 56:13
  So he knew it, he knew the scriptures backwards and
• 56:16
  forwards. And so he knew the Messianic
• 56:18
  prophecies. He was like, wow.
• 56:20
  So what happens in as soon as he gets his eyesight back, what
• 56:25
  does he do? It says he made a beeline to the
• 56:27
  mask is and and and literally fought and argued.
• 56:33
  With the Jews about Jesus being the Old Testament Messianic
• 56:38
  prophecy fulfilled. And so Paul believed it and he
• 56:43
  was a Pharisee of all Pharisees. So he was the, he was a, you
• 56:48
  know, part of the tribe of Benjamin, right?
• 56:50
  Which was the first so, Yeah, so there's there's a lot to it but
• 56:57
  I think that the ultimate goal of spreading was through the
• 57:02
  gospel and you can see most of the examples in the book of Acts
• 57:07
  when they went to a certain city or anything like that, they were
• 57:10
  teaching the gospel. At some point, they taught that
• 57:13
  Jesus Christ. Jesus of Nazareth, died and rose
• 57:19
  again and he is the Messiah. He is God.
• 57:23
  So that was the Gospel, right? And so the resurrection is
• 57:26
  basically what we live by and what we share abroad and that's
• 57:30
  the power unto God for salvation.
• 57:34
  Romans 116. So we got we got a little bit
• 57:38
  off here but I think that's that's where I come from.
• 57:41
  That's my Approach. I can understand your approach
• 57:45
  A's philosophy. I get Where you're coming from.
• 57:50
  But I think without the gospel, we have no power.
• 57:55
  Let me ask you a question. So you present the gospel to
• 57:58
  some one, you present, your Bible verses and then that
• 58:01
  person's like why don't believe in God.
• 58:03
  So where do you go from there? I just want to at that point.
• 58:05
  Where did you go? Do you like?
• 58:09
  What we let the spirit knows work.
• 58:10
  What? Why don't you present arguments
• 58:14
  that God exists? What's wrong with that?
• 58:16
  You maybe. Do you think it's possible?
• 58:19
  But you think it's effective to do that?
• 58:21
  Well, I mean, obviously, you know, you can present all the
• 58:25
  stuff you want, but when it really, Well what it really
• 58:30
  boils down to is that you know you believe in hard and hard.
• 58:32
  Correct. Some people might have hard
• 58:36
  Hearts. Some people might just be
• 58:37
  confused or wrong, they might have that information.
• 58:40
  Sure, but when I'm saying here, is that within the Christian
• 58:43
  realm, right? If you believe what the Bible
• 58:45
  says, the Bible says that there is hard and hearts, and there
• 58:48
  are scaled eyes and the veil and all that stuff.
• 58:51
  So, you know, that that no one, but God can remove the hardened.
• 58:56
  Heart can remove the scaled eyes and can reveal and You know,
• 59:02
  we're himself. So why doesn't God do that?
• 59:04
  Why does God? Let people persist in the state
• 59:07
  of hard and heart? Heart because he wants us to do,
• 59:10
  he wants us to do his work. Why doesn't he do it?
• 59:13
  He you just said, he's the only one who can do it.
• 59:15
  So, You were using that to apply to rational arguments, but it
• 59:20
  also applies. No, no, I'm saying we can, we
• 59:23
  can have rational, arguments, I'm all for that.
• 59:25
  I've had it. But ultimately, but yeah, but
• 59:29
  what is it end up with? It's useless to do that if God's
• 59:32
  not going to lift the scale from their eyes.
• 59:34
  So yeah. But so is preaching, like gospel
• 59:37
  in my opinion, if you preach the gospel to a roomful of people
• 59:40
  not, everyone's going to accept it.
• 59:42
  So you have to say that God's not because God you already did
• 59:46
  but but you already said you, you already said that your
• 59:49
  belief is that God picks and cheeses.
• 59:51
  Am I correct? Well, God, right?
• 59:53
  But God takes the people who like accept the gospel and Obey
• 59:58
  Christ. Except the what Except for the
• 1:00:01
  gospel and and without philosophy.
• 1:00:06
  Except the gospel, right? Well they may come to believe
• 1:00:11
  the gospel because someone established that there's a
• 1:00:13
  gospel that's real in the first place.
• 1:00:15
  So if you if you just bring them to atheism position Then you
• 1:00:21
  don't get no closer to Christianity.
• 1:00:24
  You get to all the other religions.
• 1:00:26
  Well, you get to a place where there's actually a god, offering
• 1:00:30
  a gospel of Salvation. Like, if if an atheist or a
• 1:00:34
  person doesn't believe in God, doesn't you have the idea of
• 1:00:38
  Christianity? Is that there's a God who's
• 1:00:39
  saving people. If you don't believe in God,
• 1:00:42
  you're not going to believe in a God who saves.
• 1:00:43
  Well, look, here's the thing though, here's the thing.
• 1:00:46
  It all, okay. Let's go, let's go back to the
• 1:00:49
  root of it. Okay.
• 1:00:51
  You believe in what Romans 3 says, correct?
• 1:00:57
  What is Romans 3 which part of Romans 3?
• 1:00:59
  Well the whole thing really and the whole book of Romans is
• 1:01:02
  about this. It's about that all humans are
• 1:01:05
  deprived, right. The total depravity of man.
• 1:01:08
  I'm not talking about the reformed.
• 1:01:10
  Calvinists telling a private I'm talking about that.
• 1:01:13
  No, none is righteous. No not one.
• 1:01:15
  None sees. After God, none all this right
• 1:01:17
  there is no not one. I don't 14 as well.
• 1:01:22
  I believe they're righteous people.
• 1:01:25
  Yeah, I believe that. It's possible to be righteous
• 1:01:28
  before God. Sure, but that's after the
• 1:01:32
  born-again correct. Sure.
• 1:01:35
  Okay, so what comes before that? Unrighteousness.
• 1:01:41
  Okay, so everybody is on the same level, correct?
• 1:01:47
  Uh, no, because you could be like, you could be, you can be
• 1:01:52
  like a pickpocket, or you can be like a genocidal Maniac.
• 1:01:56
  Who's like, genociding people? I don't think I'm talking about.
• 1:02:01
  The, the condition. You know, from birth the
• 1:02:06
  condition of all man. I don't believe in his nature.
• 1:02:09
  No. You don't believe it's in
• 1:02:11
  nature? No, I don't.
• 1:02:13
  Well, the Bible teaches in nature, does it?
• 1:02:15
  Yes. Because in Romans 4, it talks
• 1:02:17
  about well actually. Sorry, Romans 5, right?
• 1:02:20
  It talks about through one man. Brought all condemnation to all
• 1:02:26
  men, says it. But they're one, man.
• 1:02:30
  Came salvation for all. So the one man is Adam, that's
• 1:02:35
  original sin, Adam committed. The first sin that's Original
• 1:02:38
  Sin. And because he did that, that
• 1:02:41
  calls that put a curse on all man, kind.
• 1:02:44
  All right. And that is that let me ask.
• 1:02:48
  Let Me Wait question. Okay, I'm I'm sorry.
• 1:02:52
  I'm just signing in to sign off real quick.
• 1:02:55
  It's a, it's a school night and I gotta go put the kids to bed
• 1:02:58
  and get all that stuff done. I'm sorry, I interrupt you if I
• 1:03:02
  really apologize for it. Hijacking, the car, no, man,
• 1:03:04
  it's cool. I'm too tired to think O'Hara
• 1:03:06
  lie right now. Anyways, so you may have saved
• 1:03:08
  me. So it's all good, man.
• 1:03:10
  Appreciate it. Look, before you go before you
• 1:03:12
  go that. Yeah, before you go, I'm gonna
• 1:03:14
  be doing this for like, All this week, all next week, right?
• 1:03:18
  Like every day. So anytime you want to pop on,
• 1:03:20
  let's go, right? All right, yeah.
• 1:03:22
  If you're going on the weekend, oh, then yeah.
• 1:03:26
  I'll just camp out on the hammock.
• 1:03:28
  Cool. All right.
• 1:03:30
  And we'll leave the coffee analogies out of it.
• 1:03:35
  Well, next time I'm just well, I'm bringing the coffee to the
• 1:03:38
  hammock probably. So okay, there you go.
• 1:03:40
  Yeah, I got my. All right, come on and God bless
• 1:03:46
  you. Appreciate Manish have a good
• 1:03:48
  and as a good man, Thank you Mr. Hyde All right.
• 1:03:53
  So um Let me know what. Yeah, okay.
• 1:03:58
  So I just kind of want to I haven't seen your channel before
• 1:04:02
  and that that's just, you know, I haven't seen every YouTube
• 1:04:05
  channel on Earth. So just coming here, I just kind
• 1:04:07
  of want to, I'm sure you probably say this word.
• 1:04:09
  I just want to know a little bit about like if you as much as you
• 1:04:12
  willing like about your background, like are you like a,
• 1:04:14
  are you a pastor or you just someone who like wants to
• 1:04:17
  evangelize on the internet? Like what's your, what's your
• 1:04:20
  deal? I'm not a pastor, no.
• 1:04:24
  But yeah I just want to you know spread the gospel with so you
• 1:04:28
  just okay. So have you always been a
• 1:04:31
  Christian or is there something did you convert to Christianity?
• 1:04:34
  Well I was raised in a Christian home.
• 1:04:37
  Yes I went to from churches church, I've been in church my
• 1:04:42
  whole life but I came to Christ. Oh, Yeah, I'm not gonna say
• 1:04:50
  recently, right? I'm only 30 I just turned 30 so
• 1:04:54
  you know I came to Christ on my own, right?
• 1:04:57
  It's not like I was raised Christian, but that doesn't mean
• 1:05:01
  that I, you know. Was actually committed.
• 1:05:05
  That was committed to it internally.
• 1:05:06
  So but you so like, basically a lot of your life you were
• 1:05:11
  nominally Christian and then at some point you realize it was
• 1:05:15
  something that was very important to you.
• 1:05:16
  And then you wanted to basically help others to see the
• 1:05:20
  importance of it as well. Sure is what happened?
• 1:05:23
  Yeah. so, Do your beliefs currently kind of more or less
• 1:05:28
  correspond to the type of Christianity in which you were.
• 1:05:31
  Did you kind of move to a different?
• 1:05:34
  Did you kind of investigate things and move somewhere else
• 1:05:36
  or I just kind of curious like yeah yeah okay I was raised.
• 1:05:42
  Pentecostal. Okay.
• 1:05:44
  All right. And I figured out that some of
• 1:05:50
  my, some of the people that I grew up with did not believe in
• 1:05:54
  the trinity. And so, You believe in the
• 1:05:59
  Trinity, right? No, I did not.
• 1:06:02
  Oh boy. Okay.
• 1:06:03
  All right we can talk about that on a different time but um okay
• 1:06:06
  so they don't believe in the Trinity.
• 1:06:07
  So obviously that's That's right.
• 1:06:10
  I know a lot of Pentacles churches are Oneness.
• 1:06:13
  So yeah, that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all
• 1:06:17
  the same being in different modes essentially.
• 1:06:18
  Yeah. All the same person.
• 1:06:20
  Yeah, yeah. And there's more a person in the
• 1:06:23
  godhead, right? Um, So that that and so I
• 1:06:26
  believe that, you know, so I I was never taught anything, you
• 1:06:30
  know, against the Trinity or anything else.
• 1:06:32
  But when I, when I got into the study and myself, right?
• 1:06:36
  I lean more towards Baptists. Now just, you know based off of
• 1:06:43
  sheer belief, right? Not all Pentecostals are, you
• 1:06:46
  know Oneness, right? I mean plenty of rightful
• 1:06:49
  characters and and individuals are trinitarian base but it all
• 1:06:54
  falls on the trinitarian belief. Right?
• 1:06:55
  And so that's pretty much my My background and my journey into
• 1:07:00
  the Baptist scene. Yeah, so I'm a Unitarian I don't
• 1:07:06
  believe, I don't believe Jesus is you always think he's a human
• 1:07:10
  nature. and obviously I I had this, you know, many discussions
• 1:07:16
  so I have some different views. I basically I did.
• 1:07:21
  So I was raised as a Baptist Prince, Harry and Baptist
• 1:07:24
  Church. Kind of fell away.
• 1:07:28
  Kind of became like an atheist kind of became like a skeptic.
• 1:07:32
  I wasn't like a god-hating atheist.
• 1:07:34
  It was just like I guess it was more like an, I don't care phase
• 1:07:37
  of my life, where like I was falling away kind of backslid a
• 1:07:41
  little bit and then, you know, long story short I you know,
• 1:07:47
  snap I got myself together and kind of.
• 1:07:50
  But when I came back I did it like an investigation.
• 1:07:53
  I was like, well what what is this?
• 1:07:55
  What's true. So basically I'm not gonna lie,
• 1:07:58
  I kind of formed a lot of my own beliefs outside of a church
• 1:08:02
  structure. But I do believe I do believe.
• 1:08:05
  What I believe is true. And it accurately resents like
• 1:08:09
  what I call true Christianity. So that's why I try to help
• 1:08:12
  people like See through like the kind of modern versions of
• 1:08:16
  Christianity. I call them.
• 1:08:17
  I call them modern because I don't think a lot of special the
• 1:08:20
  Protestant denominations represent original Christianity.
• 1:08:24
  Think they're all bass. I think that what happened was
• 1:08:27
  the Catholic Church corrupted Christianity.
• 1:08:30
  Early on. And then, you know that
• 1:08:33
  persisted for thousands of years as they gain control of the
• 1:08:37
  government and the religion. In Rome, and then beyond.
• 1:08:40
  And and then the Protestant reformers Kind of inherited a
• 1:08:45
  lot of things from Catholicism, but also, when a different
• 1:08:49
  direction as far as like, so Terry ology they kept.
• 1:08:51
  So there were Unitarian reformers, by the way, a lot of
• 1:08:54
  people don't know that, but they kind of got murdered but that's
• 1:08:57
  neither here. Nor there.
• 1:08:59
  Really. Really the problem I think comes
• 1:09:02
  from like the message of Salvation.
• 1:09:04
  In my opinion, I don't think the Trinity is salvific.
• 1:09:06
  I know that you're going to disagree with that but really
• 1:09:09
  it's like how do we save? Yeah, so I don't see.
• 1:09:13
  I mean we can look at I don't see anywhere Jesus teaching that
• 1:09:17
  we have to believe in a trinity to be saved.
• 1:09:19
  Now, the trendy might be taught in the Bible but like there's
• 1:09:22
  the difference between the Bible teaching something and meeting
• 1:09:25
  to believe it to be saved. You see what I'm saying?
• 1:09:28
  Like Bible teaches. They don't go ahead.
• 1:09:31
  I'm sorry. Um you know the whole thing you
• 1:09:33
  know, Romans 10 right? We'll just Paul say he says to
• 1:09:36
  confess with your mouth and believe in your heart.
• 1:09:38
  The Jesus Christ is what Lord. What is Lord, Lord is a name
• 1:09:43
  that only Yahweh uses Well, that's not correct.
• 1:09:47
  So Lord, It's karaoke a lot of people in the Bible called
• 1:09:50
  karaokes. So, you know, Paul even says, I
• 1:09:53
  mean ultimate sense though, like, you know, not not just
• 1:09:56
  like, You know. I think it's in.
• 1:10:03
  Don't quote me on this. I think it's in either First
• 1:10:06
  Corinthians 7. Or yeah, I think it's in seven
• 1:10:11
  or it's in first Timothy. But I believe, you know, when it
• 1:10:16
  says that You know that? I just went mind blank.
• 1:10:23
  Sorry, that Sarah called Abraham.
• 1:10:26
  Lord, right. So that's not the same thing.
• 1:10:29
  So we call Yahweh Lord. Our Lord and what Savior and you
• 1:10:36
  know the same thing that, you know, Yahweh calls himself they
• 1:10:38
  want and only save your butt. Then Jesus Is Our Savior. so,
• 1:10:43
  you know, but there's a lot there and we can talk about that
• 1:10:45
  later. Um, I will like that.
• 1:10:49
  Go ahead. First Corinthians 8:6 says, yet
• 1:10:55
  for us. There is but one God the father
• 1:10:57
  from whom all things come and for whom we live and there is
• 1:10:59
  but one Lord Jesus Christ. So Paul seems to be
• 1:11:03
  distinguished in between God and Lord their person.
• 1:11:05
  Yes. As I Sure.
• 1:11:08
  But but you know, all the father does call the son God in Hebrews
• 1:11:13
  18. Directly.
• 1:11:16
  So, you know, there's that and he also calls him in the song,
• 1:11:20
  Psalms 45, he directly calls the Messiah, God, A directly.
• 1:11:27
  So, you know, if the Sun is just human flesh or The Human Side of
• 1:11:35
  I don't and the human nature, right?
• 1:11:36
  If Jesus, the son is only human nature, then he could not have
• 1:11:41
  been called God. That's actually not true because
• 1:11:45
  well, That. He is called chaos.
• 1:11:50
  But unfortunately, even in the Bible say also has a wide
• 1:11:53
  application of uses. For instance, even say I know
• 1:11:55
  you're going with this, you know, gods and everything. well,
• 1:12:00
  it's it's unfortunately that the this is where in a time period
• 1:12:03
  where it was the original language is Greek And the word
• 1:12:08
  of their stale us. And in that time frame fails,
• 1:12:11
  could represent other beings beside the almighty creator of
• 1:12:14
  the universe. So, we just have to take all
• 1:12:16
  that into consideration. Um, yeah, sure.
• 1:12:20
  I mean, but but ultimately, like the whole The whole, you know,
• 1:12:25
  New Testament. You know, Jesus is put on the
• 1:12:29
  right hand of power, right? Who was like our God who was
• 1:12:33
  like yeah wait right and so. Jesus is pretty much like Yahweh
• 1:12:39
  but again, what I want to say right now is that, you know, we
• 1:12:42
  can talk about Trinity versus Unitarianism in another stream.
• 1:12:47
  I would like For for us to talk about this.
• 1:12:51
  I've also had a debate with another Unitarian before on my
• 1:12:59
  channel. If you want to go and check that
• 1:13:00
  out. We're supposed to be doing
• 1:13:03
  another debate or slash conversation.
• 1:13:06
  I want to do a formal debate but I would like to get you on to do
• 1:13:09
  the same thing. That will be fantastic.
• 1:13:11
  If you want to look at my channel, you probably would hate
• 1:13:14
  it because it's all about the Trinity.
• 1:13:16
  I just recently got on to atheism.
• 1:13:21
  So, Well, I'm not gonna hate your channel there.
• 1:13:23
  You know, I understand a lot of people think to train you an
• 1:13:26
  important so if you think that's important it's your channel.
• 1:13:28
  You can do what you want. I'm not gonna hate you for it
• 1:13:30
  but I'm just saying hate the doctor.
• 1:13:33
  Yeah, I well if what you're saying is true, then I will
• 1:13:37
  consider that. But I will say, I think I've
• 1:13:39
  looked into this matter enough. I'm not like maybe you'll make
• 1:13:42
  an argument that I've never heard before.
• 1:13:44
  That'll change my mind. I'm not gonna, I'm not one to
• 1:13:46
  say that. I I know for a fact that I'm
• 1:13:48
  right about things and I'll never change my mind.
• 1:13:50
  Sure. Like, if you, if you say things
• 1:13:52
  that are true, that I'm obligated to believe that in my
• 1:13:55
  opinions. So I'll, you know, listen to
• 1:13:57
  whatever it is. You have to say, oh, yeah I can
• 1:14:01
  I can come on another time like I can come on to if you have
• 1:14:05
  other open panels and we can have a discussion with the
• 1:14:07
  Trinity or the gospel message or anything else about Christianity
• 1:14:11
  because I think that well My Views are they've changed.
• 1:14:16
  They're very different. Like I don't go to church, okay?
• 1:14:19
  Because there's no church that teaches what I believe.
• 1:14:22
  But like, there's a reason for that.
• 1:14:25
  I would argue there's a reason for that.
• 1:14:28
  Maybe there is. Yeah, I mean maybe because it's
• 1:14:32
  well honestly I'm not a Catholic because I believe the Trinity
• 1:14:36
  same thing with Orthodox and I don't believe like, I don't
• 1:14:40
  believe in the pub, I don't believe in their like their
• 1:14:43
  there's their traditions and their priest casts and all that.
• 1:14:49
  But when it comes to protestantism, I like how the
• 1:14:53
  Protestants called out the corruption of the Catholic
• 1:14:55
  church and the dog, but the problem with the process is I
• 1:14:58
  think they went wrong on so terryology.
• 1:15:01
  I think that the soldier, the reform sight of it.
• 1:15:05
  Yes, there's our minions and things like that.
• 1:15:06
  I agree with that. Yeah. um, so that's A one area
• 1:15:12
  and also really. When I, what I did was I went
• 1:15:16
  back and I looked at well what are the earliest Christians
• 1:15:18
  believed because these are the people who are closest to the
• 1:15:21
  original message. So sure what I did was I read
• 1:15:24
  the, I read that she the church fathers and when I found out is
• 1:15:27
  that first of all, the Catholic Church definitely changed some
• 1:15:31
  things. Even though some when you get
• 1:15:34
  early enough, when you get late enough, the Catholic, the
• 1:15:36
  father's quote, unquote, teach the Catholicism because they're
• 1:15:39
  Catholics at that point. But when you go way back to like
• 1:15:42
  the first century and early second century, it is wild how,
• 1:15:46
  how different it is from what Pathologists and teaches.
• 1:15:48
  And so, what I what I do is I teach what was called Original
• 1:15:52
  Christianity. So, you know, I can explain what
• 1:15:55
  all is as we have our conversations, but and, but
• 1:15:58
  we'll see that's a thing. I would come from the same area
• 1:16:01
  because I believe that the early church fathers did preach the
• 1:16:04
  trinity, I think Ignatius did I think origin, did I think?
• 1:16:13
  Of course. Justin Martyr.
• 1:16:16
  I believe that they all did. I think that they were You know,
• 1:16:21
  because the Trinity you would understand that the Trinity is
• 1:16:25
  pretty complex, right? It's pretty complex thing.
• 1:16:28
  And so what they were trying to do was they were trying to make
• 1:16:30
  sense of what the text was saying.
• 1:16:32
  Instead of taking the text and twisting it, they were trying to
• 1:16:35
  make sense of it as for what it was saying and they had the
• 1:16:39
  eyewitness accounts, they had the original languages and all
• 1:16:43
  that and so they didn't speak English, right?
• 1:16:45
  So they did what they had. and so some of them were You know,
• 1:16:52
  they were troubling with it, right?
• 1:16:53
  They were, they were kind of wrestling with the idea.
• 1:16:55
  And so that's that's not That's not to say that they were not
• 1:17:00
  trinitarian that was to say that it was no.
• 1:17:03
  You know, that that sort of foundational truth was not
• 1:17:07
  necessarily established yet. it was believed in to, and it was
• 1:17:12
  believed upon The structure of it rather.
• 1:17:15
  But it was not like theologically refined right as
• 1:17:19
  it is now and as it was with the Nicene Creed.
• 1:17:22
  And so, I would say that you would not agree with at all,
• 1:17:27
  with a nice increase, but that's early church document.
• 1:17:32
  And so I know you're talking about like first century.
• 1:17:35
  Second century, third Century. Oh yeah, by the by the time the
• 1:17:38
  Nicene Creed comes around. Yes.
• 1:17:40
  The Trinity is, is that just basically put it on paper.
• 1:17:45
  Right. But I feel like I feel like when
• 1:17:47
  you get go back early enough, you're you're making the case
• 1:17:49
  that they're just trying to flesh it out.
• 1:17:51
  In terms of the language, I'm making the case that first of
• 1:17:55
  all, they seem to teach a kind of Proto trinity knot and then
• 1:18:00
  it does evolve into the full fledged nice scene,
• 1:18:03
  Constantinople in Trinity of the fourth Century.
• 1:18:06
  So, yeah, kind of my perspective on it.
• 1:18:10
  Sure sure and I think and I would, I would be fine with
• 1:18:13
  that, you know? But I mean, do you believe that
• 1:18:15
  the dedicate is a Christian document?
• 1:18:20
  Yeah, certainly appears to be, um, but it mentions being
• 1:18:24
  baptized three separate times in the three distinct names of the
• 1:18:27
  father, son and spirit. Yeah, Matthew 28:9 yeah I'm
• 1:18:32
  Matthew 28, 19 says the same thing, but right. there's a
• 1:18:38
  just, You, it's not necessary to believe that.
• 1:18:43
  Like I said, in my opinion, it doesn't mean they all have the
• 1:18:46
  same name. It means that in the name of
• 1:18:48
  means in the authority of so you're being baptized in the
• 1:18:51
  authority of God and the authority of Christ and
• 1:18:53
  authority of the holy spirit. It's not necessarily calling
• 1:18:56
  them. God, all equal co-equal and
• 1:18:58
  Co-op journal and things like that.
• 1:19:00
  Right in my opinion. Well yeah.
• 1:19:03
  But I mean that's the thing though.
• 1:19:04
  Like you gotta take all the other stuff into account as
• 1:19:07
  well. Like that one verse doesn't
• 1:19:08
  stand alone and and actually that would be a verse that you
• 1:19:12
  brought up earlier First Corinthians 86.
• 1:19:14
  That is one that I would use to prove or to allude to the
• 1:19:19
  Trinity because, you know, the original that the Jewish custom,
• 1:19:27
  right? Which was Deuteronomy 6th 4,
• 1:19:31
  right? There's a hero Israel.
• 1:19:36
  The Lord is God, the Lord is one and so Paul, pretty much takes
• 1:19:40
  that and adds Jesus in it. Essentially, and so he is put on
• 1:19:46
  the same level. With God, the father in that
• 1:19:50
  sense because again when you call someone, when you call
• 1:19:54
  something Lord in that context now and that context, just
• 1:19:58
  because he's not called fails, which he's called they off and
• 1:20:01
  that one, but that doesn't matter, right?
• 1:20:03
  So, just because he's not called the offs and he's called Lord.
• 1:20:06
  That this is not mean that there is a distinction in Um in like
• 1:20:11
  godhood basically, right? Yeah and Divinity right?
• 1:20:16
  But I would say that that is exactly what puts him on the
• 1:20:20
  same level as the divinity. Because you know, you you put it
• 1:20:24
  on the same line in the same level as the father God. so, you
• 1:20:29
  know, you say we have one father God of all, okay, but then we
• 1:20:33
  have lower one. Lord, Jesus Christ.
• 1:20:35
  Well, we have one Lord, and that's Yahweh.
• 1:20:39
  But we also have one God. That's all so Yahweh.
• 1:20:42
  So, you see what I mean? Like, you can, you can take that
• 1:20:45
  verse and you can say, okay, well, Paul is trying to include
• 1:20:49
  Jesus, the son of God in the Oneness of God, in the original
• 1:20:55
  Deuteronomy text. You see I'm coming from with
• 1:20:59
  that. I can see how you look at it
• 1:21:01
  that way. Yeah, I'm not saying I agree
• 1:21:03
  with your perspective but I can look at that way and think that
• 1:21:08
  Yeah. I mean but you know what?
• 1:21:10
  Actually if you would give me just one second Canisius on.
• 1:21:14
  What's going on? Hey, yes, yes.
• 1:21:18
  So she has a channel. Teach you, our way.
• 1:21:21
  I don't know if you've seen it. Go check her out.
• 1:21:22
  She's fantastic. She's a trinitarian.
• 1:21:25
  So, if we want to talk about the Trinity, if y'all want to give
• 1:21:29
  me one minute, I'm changing the program.
• 1:21:31
  We are no longer doing atheism versus Trinity Christianity.
• 1:21:36
  We're doing well, it's the Trinity true so well, hold on.
• 1:21:40
  I actually have to, I have to go.
• 1:21:42
  Okay, okay. I do.
• 1:21:48
  I will, I will be back if I see you're having a stream like this
• 1:21:52
  one and I'm able to I will join and we can continue this
• 1:21:55
  conversation or we can set something up.
• 1:21:58
  I don't know. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:59
  Let's uh so, um, If you don't mind.
• 1:22:04
  Do you have a WhatsApp? Or anything like that.
• 1:22:07
  I actually don't okay. Um so Do you have an email?
• 1:22:12
  Yeah, I can post my email on the private chat.
• 1:22:16
  We're here, I'm posting it on here, on the regular chat
• 1:22:19
  because I don't I don't care if anybody sees it.
• 1:22:21
  Just go on there. Send shoot me a message.
• 1:22:25
  And we'll go from there. I have my other Unitarian friend
• 1:22:30
  on Discord. And we're getting that together
• 1:22:36
  so that would be great if we could do one like that.
• 1:22:39
  So here's my there's my email. All right, and just shoot me a
• 1:22:46
  message on there and we'll we'll get something going.
• 1:22:49
  All right, well, thank you for talking to me.
• 1:22:51
  Um, and you know Well, we can have future conversations and my
• 1:22:57
  guess is, we're probably gonna disagree on a lot, but maybe,
• 1:22:59
  you know, we can learn something from each other.
• 1:23:02
  Okay, sure. All right.
• 1:23:03
  Well, thank you and until next time.
• 1:23:06
  Yeah man. God bless Hello.
• 1:23:12
  What's going on man? I just heard you having a good
• 1:23:16
  discussion. I figured that participate.
• 1:23:18
  If it's cool it. Yeah yeah man I'm all cool with
• 1:23:21
  that. What?
• 1:23:22
  Well okay so your name is God TV radio.
• 1:23:26
  So you're you're a believer. Yes.
• 1:23:29
  Okay, fantastic. All right.
• 1:23:31
  Um, so we we don't have any atheists.
• 1:23:35
  It seems. Here we had the one.
• 1:23:39
  But he ran pretty pretty recently.
• 1:23:41
  So we kind of got onto the trinitarian thing but I'm sure
• 1:23:45
  that we are all three trinitarians.
• 1:23:48
  Would I be correct on that? Yes.
• 1:23:50
  Okay, so there so we need we hey we need the atheist.
• 1:23:55
  Now we're that. See, they want to let me share
• 1:23:58
  it on my channel. Hold on.
• 1:24:00
  Don't come. They want to be on my channel
• 1:24:02
  and and comment on all my videos but they don't want to show up
• 1:24:06
  and and that's fine. It's a weekday.
• 1:24:08
  I get it. But there was one that showed
• 1:24:12
  up. So I commend that but normally,
• 1:24:14
  it doesn't matter when I come on, they're they're popping up
• 1:24:17
  over everywhere so I don't know. Um yeah, I'm sure my channel
• 1:24:21
  will be here. Cool, I do to get them on.
• 1:24:24
  My show is off your bananas. Oh yeah.
• 1:24:32
  Well, I need to do that. Unfortunately, I don't have any
• 1:24:36
  on hand. I got some coffee.
• 1:24:39
  Are they coffee lovers out there?
• 1:24:41
  Come on. I'm sure that's one thing that
• 1:24:46
  us as Christians and atheists can actually agree on is that we
• 1:24:48
  love coffee. Um, maybe, maybe, um, okay.
• 1:24:55
  So tell us a little about a little bit about yourself.
• 1:24:57
  God TV radio, which you got Well I run a radio station and also
• 1:25:03
  do music right books that kind of stuff and I do live shows I
• 1:25:07
  do get some 8 discs from time time because I offer free
• 1:25:11
  bananas and internet cookies and they tend to sometimes be very
• 1:25:16
  rough. But other times you get a nice
• 1:25:18
  one every once in a while, right?
• 1:25:22
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:25:22
  I tend to Tend to get the same thing, you know.
• 1:25:27
  It's actually when you got them on especially when you're
• 1:25:30
  calling them out like normally. Like I said, normally I have
• 1:25:33
  this kind of title in their last time I went live.
• 1:25:36
  Excuse me. Last time I live.
• 1:25:37
  I didn't have anybody on and so but they were running amok.
• 1:25:44
  I'm telling you in the comment section saying, oh, you're
• 1:25:46
  wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong wrong, but now Hopefully
• 1:25:50
  throughout the week. I'm doing this every day so
• 1:25:53
  hopefully throughout the week we'll get some good
• 1:25:55
  conversations but Kill why I would like to check out your
• 1:26:00
  radio station man, what kind of music you do?
• 1:26:04
  It's going to do everything from Christian rock to heavy metal,
• 1:26:08
  Hard Rock, classical, soft rock, R&B do a lot of different
• 1:26:12
  things, sometimes, even, dabble and Country.
• 1:26:15
  Nice nice. Cool.
• 1:26:18
  So you are if you are interested, you could actually
• 1:26:21
  listen to the album for free on my YouTube channel.
• 1:26:24
  It's yeah. Dropped.
• 1:26:27
  Yeah, I'd love to do that. That'd be great.
• 1:26:29
  Um, I wrote a book myself and it's on the Trinity, but You
• 1:26:35
  wrote a book on the trinity? Well, sort of yes, so the word
• 1:26:42
  of Yahweh Jesus. So Well that's cool man, that's
• 1:26:48
  cool. Yeah yeah I it's very short.
• 1:26:52
  I'm working on another one but it's very short, it's just
• 1:26:54
  basically like a one two punch, right?
• 1:26:57
  Like you want the Theological structure of who Jesus is.
• 1:27:03
  Then you get this book and you get it like there it is, right?
• 1:27:07
  You get scripture, you get what it is and what it talks about
• 1:27:10
  and everything else. So it's only three chapters
• 1:27:13
  long. It's not that big.
• 1:27:15
  But what do you got? You got any, you said that, you
• 1:27:17
  wrote books, which you got Well, right, like fiction, and all
• 1:27:22
  that. I've written, like a recently.
• 1:27:24
  I wrote a book called afterlife simulation and it's basically
• 1:27:28
  about like, how do I explain this without blowing the plot
• 1:27:34
  for you, I'll tell you what, if you get an opportunity, when
• 1:27:38
  these days, just go to Amazon type in Brett.
• 1:27:41
  King after I simulation, you can read the summary because I don't
• 1:27:44
  want to blow it for you. Sure?
• 1:27:45
  Well, I appreciate that. So you're not a, you're not a
• 1:27:49
  spoiler, so I'm okay with that. Oh, I love hearing what people
• 1:27:55
  think afterwards, sure, sure. Okay.
• 1:27:59
  Well, hey, if y'all want to give me a second. um, I will be right
• 1:28:07
  back. Go ahead, dude.
• 1:28:10
  My name is Kenisha. I just calls me teach Teach all
• 1:28:17
  right. Kenisha, sounds pretty cool.
• 1:28:18
  Sounds kind of like Ganesha though.
• 1:28:22
  Yeah, it's keneisha. So, what about you do?
• 1:28:28
  You have the same issues me and Mr. Mitch has were an atheists
• 1:28:32
  who are rough on you sometimes, and every once in a while, they
• 1:28:35
  throw you a nice one. Oh yeah.
• 1:28:37
  I have a good chunk of my followers are atheists because I
• 1:28:41
  often do like, weekly, live debates with atheists on my
• 1:28:45
  channel, and I would have the camera on right now, but my
• 1:28:48
  daughter is just keeps jumping in the front of the camera.
• 1:28:50
  But, um, but yeah, so I get, I get a lot of rough ones that I
• 1:28:54
  also get some really cool ones. Like, you know, I would happily
• 1:28:58
  sit down and have coffee with them type of thing.
• 1:29:00
  Like they, they're, they're respectful, they are articulate
• 1:29:05
  themselves very well. Um, but for a good chunk of
• 1:29:09
  them, they're they can be pretty pretty nasty, pretty rude,
• 1:29:13
  especially, because I'm a woman immediately, you start getting
• 1:29:17
  the the Bible verses throwing at you.
• 1:29:19
  A woman shouldn't teach and a woman, shouldn't do this.
• 1:29:21
  And a woman shouldn't do that, which is just, they don't
• 1:29:24
  understand scripture at all. But yeah, so those passages were
• 1:29:29
  says, things like that. That was Paul trying to get some
• 1:29:32
  women who were being rough in the moment to be silent.
• 1:29:35
  That was in for, All women globally.
• 1:29:38
  I agree. I agree with you.
• 1:29:40
  What's your name? My name is Brett Keane and my
• 1:29:45
  YouTube channels, obviously at God TV radio, tried to make it
• 1:29:49
  simple and cool, sound and all at the same time.
• 1:29:52
  Yeah, I'm gonna go subscribe right now while we're waiting on
• 1:29:54
  Mitch, I had a I was teaching a Bible study right before this.
• 1:29:58
  I missed a good chunk of everything on but it sounds like
• 1:30:01
  he's on the Trinity right now. Do you ever teach or anything or
• 1:30:05
  you do like music and stuff? What do you mean?
• 1:30:09
  Like, teach music to people? Um just teach like the word of
• 1:30:14
  God to anybody or you'd be more towards like just the musician
• 1:30:18
  side or like kind of what's your background?
• 1:30:21
  Well, music is obviously something to make money from and
• 1:30:25
  it's a job like thing, but it's not something I push on my
• 1:30:30
  YouTube channel. My YouTube channel is mostly
• 1:30:32
  about God religion, but I like philosophy and I enjoy when you
• 1:30:37
  usually, when I debate atheist, you you'll probably find this
• 1:30:42
  out. If you read my bio or my page, I
• 1:30:44
  used to be a former extremely popular atheist on YouTube and
• 1:30:49
  then I converted. So now I'm considered an
• 1:30:52
  apostate so I get extra heat. Not only my Christian taking
• 1:30:56
  heat for that but because I was a former popular atheist they
• 1:31:00
  just they want to stop me God. Yeah, respect that.
• 1:31:05
  Yeah, I have a rough past myself.
• 1:31:06
  So it was a complete 180 for me. And I know it.
• 1:31:10
  You know, that's the thing that I love about Jesus like when he
• 1:31:13
  when he talks, it's so relatable because he said in his own
• 1:31:17
  Hometown, they didn't receive him.
• 1:31:19
  The people that know him, you know, but everyone who wasn't
• 1:31:24
  raised around him practically, you know, is the one who
• 1:31:27
  received him and that's how we find it in our lives as well.
• 1:31:30
  You know, people who know your past, they will say all kinds of
• 1:31:35
  things about you but the people who know who know you as a new
• 1:31:41
  creation in Christ, they're the biggest supporters, you know
• 1:31:46
  Right, exactly. When I when I have discussions
• 1:31:49
  with non-believers I realize and you probably figured this out as
• 1:31:53
  well as Mitch because you guys sound like you've experienced
• 1:31:56
  quite a bit but atheist like to be in a position where they
• 1:32:00
  would be breasts or and they get to interrogate, they don't like
• 1:32:03
  dealing with their own position or the the science that they
• 1:32:07
  claim to follow. And me, I always make sure that
• 1:32:11
  I'm on top in the congregation where, okay, what do you
• 1:32:14
  selling? What are you trying to tell me?
• 1:32:16
  Do I come from rocks in my monkey and my flying squirrel
• 1:32:19
  with what he trying to sell me here because if you're going to
• 1:32:22
  give up Eternal everlasting life, you better be selling
• 1:32:25
  something good. That's how I put it.
• 1:32:28
  He meant to that. Amen, to that, I know.
• 1:32:32
  And it's, you know, what I'm finding is the the with atheist.
• 1:32:35
  Now there's a lot of different beliefs in this atheist is still
• 1:32:42
  on the monkey Theory. While the other atheists are
• 1:32:44
  saying, we never believed that we came from monkeys and another
• 1:32:47
  one says we came from fish and another one says, we never
• 1:32:49
  believed we came for fishes, like they can't agree with what
• 1:32:52
  evolution is, but they all ride for the same team, which is a
• 1:32:59
  lie, you know, the whole thing in general is so they're all
• 1:33:02
  believing something. That wasn't even right in the
• 1:33:06
  first place and it never will be right?
• 1:33:09
  And it just I what I do is I just listen to them, you know,
• 1:33:14
  sometimes I want to say something, and sometimes I just
• 1:33:17
  hear the Holy Spirit saying not right now.
• 1:33:20
  Just let the, let the blind lead the blind and let them fall into
• 1:33:23
  the hole, you know. and when someone's willing to listen,
• 1:33:29
  Then the Holy Spirit Will prompt me to. now, I can say something
• 1:33:36
  because the because It's speaking to a whole crowd.
• 1:33:41
  You're going to get so many different personalities and so
• 1:33:44
  many different backgrounds, and attitudes and answers.
• 1:33:49
  And you're not meant to Win the entire crowd.
• 1:33:55
  It's never worked like that. I mean, me and my friend, Jesse,
• 1:33:59
  from the Knights of getting were just talking about this.
• 1:34:01
  Even Jesus didn't win the whole crowd.
• 1:34:03
  Even Jesus had haters even Jesus had people twisting his words
• 1:34:09
  and making him look like, he's something that he's not.
• 1:34:11
  So how are we thinking? We're going to escape the same
• 1:34:13
  thing. You know, we're we should expect
• 1:34:17
  it. The way I keep myself going so I
• 1:34:20
  don't like falling to the Trap of thinking on a cycle level
• 1:34:24
  that I'm just not getting through this person.
• 1:34:27
  When I'm doing a show, I, I realized that the person I'm
• 1:34:32
  directly debating is most likely not going to change in the
• 1:34:35
  debate. But there are people out there
• 1:34:38
  listening and there might even be some Christians with doubts.
• 1:34:41
  And what I'm saying, might actually help them and for the
• 1:34:44
  non-believers, who are on the fence, maybe I'm helping
• 1:34:47
  somebody that I don't see that's in front of me at the moment,
• 1:34:50
  but they hear me. I get a lot of Facebook messages
• 1:34:53
  for people say, hey man, I was listening to your show and, you
• 1:34:57
  know, I didn't even think of it like that kind of thing, but you
• 1:35:01
  rarely get the person in the moment.
• 1:35:04
  You know what I mean? Absolutely, I agree with you.
• 1:35:07
  Brett. And that's what I do.
• 1:35:08
  It a lot. When I first started doing this
• 1:35:10
  actually, Christians were the ones who were saying are you out
• 1:35:13
  of your mind? Kenisha, like don't associate
• 1:35:15
  with them. Like don't talk to them, people
• 1:35:17
  to abstain from them and, you know, and it was just blowing my
• 1:35:20
  mind and I'm like guys even if 99 of them reject my baby, see
• 1:35:25
  you honey 99 of them reject the word if one of them receives it.
• 1:35:31
  All of these is worth it every last bit of it.
• 1:35:36
  Well, I agree with you and it doesn't make any kind of sense.
• 1:35:40
  You just remind them that Jesus went into the tent was Sinners.
• 1:35:44
  And, and people who had rough backgrounds and all that.
• 1:35:47
  So it is, what it is. How are you supposed to?
• 1:35:49
  So see if you can't connect with people, if you don't believe
• 1:35:53
  you're all authentic and that you have loved and you and you
• 1:35:57
  want to connect with them then they're not it's it's basically
• 1:36:00
  fail on arrival. You are speaking.
• 1:36:04
  My language Brett, that's exactly what I say all the time.
• 1:36:07
  And when Jesus said, go out into the world, he didn't say, just
• 1:36:11
  go to this certain kind of area and talk to this certain type of
• 1:36:14
  people, we're supposed to preach the gospel and and spread the
• 1:36:18
  word, and let God work on that person's heart.
• 1:36:21
  And unfortunately majority, we should know this.
• 1:36:24
  A majority of the world is going to laugh and scoff and say
• 1:36:27
  you're crazy. But there is that that remnant
• 1:36:31
  of people that one that isn't saying anything that's sitting
• 1:36:34
  in the corner that's listening to every single word that we're
• 1:36:38
  saying and they're soaking that up.
• 1:36:40
  And and here's here's the thing that blesses my heartbreak.
• 1:36:43
  I don't know if it blesses yours but I'm sure it does.
• 1:36:45
  As I think about Because I was obedient, when I heard the Lord
• 1:36:51
  call, every time I am obedient because there's a lot of times
• 1:36:54
  I've been disobedient and didn't do what the Lord asked me to do.
• 1:36:56
  But when I'm obedient, that's one more person for eternity.
• 1:37:02
  Eternity. That will get to spend their
• 1:37:05
  life in here, Freedom with God himself, because I didn't just
• 1:37:09
  stay silent and sit in the corner and say I'm too scared.
• 1:37:13
  I, you know, and it gives me the strength.
• 1:37:17
  And this patience and determination.
• 1:37:21
  Then I'm not going to let anything stop me because of
• 1:37:25
  what, even even within the church, what even the church
• 1:37:29
  will say, sometimes, you know, the church sometimes says, try
• 1:37:32
  to tell me. Leave it alone.
• 1:37:34
  Don't talk to them. They're not worth it.
• 1:37:36
  They're never going to listen. but, We never know what we say
• 1:37:42
  where it lands in their heart. So that, that kind of argument
• 1:37:48
  they do that doesn't work on me because, well, I'm a former
• 1:37:53
  atheist a big time one. So here I am a Christian now, so
• 1:37:58
  telling me that people won't listen and you can't get through
• 1:38:02
  to them. It doesn't work for me because I
• 1:38:05
  am a living example of the blessing.
• 1:38:09
  Amen. Me too me too.
• 1:38:11
  I was definitely not born nor raised nor taught anything about
• 1:38:16
  Jesus. It was a complete opposite with
• 1:38:19
  crafts and and darkness in my home.
• 1:38:22
  And so the impossible happened for me and You know, it takes
• 1:38:29
  somebody to say something. To to spark my interest and now
• 1:38:33
  look at me. I literally teach the Bible
• 1:38:35
  practically every single day, answer messages and emails all
• 1:38:40
  day long, literally every day and it's it's helping people and
• 1:38:45
  I would have never guessed. I would have ever been a
• 1:38:47
  Christian. I'll tell you that right now.
• 1:38:51
  It's a tough road, for sure, I keep on trying to click on your
• 1:38:55
  name and comments, so I can go to your YouTube channel And
• 1:38:59
  subscribe, but it only gives me the option to block the report.
• 1:39:02
  Can you give me a link in private chat if possible?
• 1:39:05
  Yeah, yeah, I can drop it in there.
• 1:39:07
  I already subscribed the match. So he's got a deal with my
• 1:39:11
  harassment. Now, I'm sure you don't mind.
• 1:39:17
  You're all jumping in the link right now.
• 1:39:21
  All right, I appreciate it. You seem really cool.
• 1:39:24
  I can't wait to watch some movie videos and see what you're
• 1:39:27
  about. Same same yeah I'm enjoying this
• 1:39:31
  talk it's it's very relatable everything that you're saying I
• 1:39:35
  can dig it. I don't know if there's
• 1:39:39
  something if he's got the settings on for private chat to
• 1:39:43
  work, but I'm not seeing any link.
• 1:39:46
  Yeah, I don't see. Private chat is set up on this
• 1:39:49
  or actually. Yeah, here it is.
• 1:39:53
  All right, that'll work. Let me see.
• 1:39:55
  Scroll down. Why did it go all the way up?
• 1:39:59
  Here we go. He in each Yahweh.
• 1:40:03
  There you go. Subscribe.
• 1:40:08
  That's you. That's me.
• 1:40:12
  Awesome. There we go.
• 1:40:14
  Well, I subscribed. Very cool.
• 1:40:17
  You I'm doing it right now. God TV radio.
• 1:40:25
  So, how long you been a Christian?
• 1:40:28
  And say, probably. Man, I'm bad with time frames
• 1:40:33
  but they're probably going on about seven or eight years.
• 1:40:37
  I wasn't always an atheist. So, I was a self-proclaimed.
• 1:40:42
  That's what I call it when I was a child.
• 1:40:45
  But and I don't know if anybody really count it when you're a
• 1:40:48
  kid, you don't know any better, you know what I mean?
• 1:40:52
  Yeah, definitely. Um, it can start when you're a
• 1:40:55
  kid but at the same for me, I've been saved.
• 1:40:57
  Maybe about eight, nine years around that time frame.
• 1:41:00
  I haven't kept count. Really?
• 1:41:01
  Honestly, like every time I told my testimony I was like maybe I
• 1:41:05
  was 20 To 23 somewhere around. I don't know exactly how old I
• 1:41:11
  was, but I know it's been about eight nine years somewhere
• 1:41:17
  around there. That's pretty cool.
• 1:41:22
  Sounds like we got a lot to relate with her now.
• 1:41:25
  Short around the same time. Praise God.
• 1:41:30
  He's moving in his people. Brett.
• 1:41:31
  He is moving everywhere and we just got to be about his
• 1:41:36
  business wherever we are, you know?
• 1:41:42
  Oof looks like you deal with the rough topics here.
• 1:41:45
  I'm looking at some of the titles, the videos.
• 1:41:48
  I, so what I do on my channel is I I want to talk about the
• 1:41:53
  hardest subjects possible. I don't want to talk about, you
• 1:41:58
  know, just how you get saved, and the love of God and stuff.
• 1:42:01
  I talk about those things, but I feel like everybody talks about
• 1:42:04
  that. I want to talk about the stuff
• 1:42:05
  that people struggle with, like, struggle with.
• 1:42:09
  Like, I don't understand this verse.
• 1:42:10
  I don't understand how this is possible.
• 1:42:12
  What is God saying here? Okay.
• 1:42:13
  Well, is this a contradiction in the Bible?
• 1:42:15
  What about slavery, what about I like talking about that, because
• 1:42:20
  that's the kind of stuff that people really want to talk about
• 1:42:22
  and so, my whole My whole channel is about the most random
• 1:42:29
  and the most toughest topics I could possibly think of or
• 1:42:33
  somebody can throw up me. One of the things that I don't
• 1:42:37
  know if you guys ever bring this up, but have you ever brought up
• 1:42:40
  objective or subjective morality with?
• 1:42:43
  Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I do that all the time.
• 1:42:45
  I actually just got done doing that just tonight actually And
• 1:42:51
  it's a doozy for sure. That's cool.
• 1:42:55
  That's cool. Yeah, I've been trying to get my
• 1:42:58
  brothers and sisters in Christ to use arguments like that.
• 1:43:01
  I'm glad you guys are already step ahead on that game.
• 1:43:05
  Yeah, because you can only get up yet.
• 1:43:08
  What I believe is that you can only get objective morality with
• 1:43:10
  God and without it, you just get a bunch of monkeys, you know, on
• 1:43:14
  a, on a bunch of trees, throwing, you know, dung at each
• 1:43:17
  other. Right?
• 1:43:18
  He just don't have and that that's going into the evolution
• 1:43:21
  thing too. So you got pretty much.
• 1:43:25
  You got it all in a package with that kind of thing but just real
• 1:43:28
  quick, my internet just crashed. Right?
• 1:43:32
  And so that's why I haven't been back on so I apologize for that.
• 1:43:34
  Thank you all for keeping it up. Yeah.
• 1:43:38
  So anyway, I'm back. Well, I subscribe to you while
• 1:43:43
  you were gone and so her as well.
• 1:43:45
  You both seem very interesting to me.
• 1:43:48
  I'm glad I found some more decent, crystals on the
• 1:43:51
  internet. I thought they all took off for
• 1:43:53
  me. now, man, there's a there's plenty over the hill, man.
• 1:43:59
  There's plenty over the hill. I appreciate that.
• 1:44:01
  I'll subscribe to you as well. Yeah.
• 1:44:06
  So what have you all been talking about?
• 1:44:10
  Just a few random different things.
• 1:44:13
  I mean, when we got saved, You know, just just what God to do,
• 1:44:20
  honestly, through the people. Just random different topics.
• 1:44:25
  We kind of covered like five different things and that short
• 1:44:28
  time you were gone. Mitch.
• 1:44:31
  Yeah, so actually I would like you all as opinion on this.
• 1:44:33
  The Unitarian that I just had on He had to leave shortly, but her
• 1:44:39
  hand to leave. which was a bummer but hopefully we can get
• 1:44:43
  him back on, but he, when I had the atheist back on or when I
• 1:44:49
  had the atheist on and we was talking to him, We were doing
• 1:44:52
  the subjective, you know objective deal just very
• 1:44:55
  briefly, but he said basically, whenever I was saying that we
• 1:44:59
  needed to have the gospel front and center.
• 1:45:02
  When we're talking or evangelizing to anybody and he
• 1:45:06
  said that we don't that we need to do philosophical rather than
• 1:45:11
  you know the gospel itself. Where do y'all line up with
• 1:45:16
  that? Like where's yours perspective
• 1:45:18
  on how to reset? The word of God is everything.
• 1:45:22
  So everything that we should that we profess especially
• 1:45:27
  because we're teachers especially because we're on a
• 1:45:30
  public platform. We have to and y'all know me
• 1:45:34
  everybody in the chat Mitch all you guys know me, the word of
• 1:45:39
  God needs to be right there on the screen.
• 1:45:40
  And that's why I love what you do.
• 1:45:41
  Mitch when you bring up the word right there.
• 1:45:44
  So that people can't say, well you made that up, that's not
• 1:45:46
  there. Well, we're looking right at it
• 1:45:48
  together. Let's read the word of God
• 1:45:50
  because that's where the authority is, and says, neither
• 1:45:52
  the word of God. It's not to deny Jesus period,
• 1:45:55
  right? Because he is the authority, he
• 1:45:59
  is the word of God and I I don't believe that we should do
• 1:46:03
  anything outside of what the written words says like.
• 1:46:07
  I don't I don't believe in exegesis, I believe in exergis,
• 1:46:11
  you know, like letting the text speak for itself, not me putting
• 1:46:15
  myself in the text and and drawing something to my own
• 1:46:19
  conclusion. Yeah, I mean just like it says
• 1:46:21
  in First Corinthians you know four and six is don't exceed.
• 1:46:25
  What is written? So don't go beyond what is
• 1:46:29
  written. So it's like The way that I see
• 1:46:32
  it is that, you know, the text has to be front and center.
• 1:46:35
  The gospel has to be front center because it is the power
• 1:46:38
  unto God, and the Salvation Romans 1:16.
• 1:46:41
  So without that, without the power Of Salvation.
• 1:46:45
  You literally have nothing. Are you have is empty
• 1:46:50
  philosophy. Man.
• 1:46:54
  Yeah but grounded within the gospel if you if you put the
• 1:46:58
  gospel front center, Then. You know, God can do the work
• 1:47:02
  and so that's, that's ultimately what it is, right?
• 1:47:04
  God does the work we're just his ambassadors.
• 1:47:07
  Amen. And I, and I think when I hear
• 1:47:10
  stuff like that honestly much, I just think how then, do you
• 1:47:13
  think the entire Christian Channel, Christian Channel,
• 1:47:18
  Christian church has ever operated by the authority and
• 1:47:21
  has man taken it, and tried to do other things.
• 1:47:24
  With, of course, that's where you get all these denominations
• 1:47:26
  and and these crazy leaders in these Cults and whatnot.
• 1:47:30
  But when when we're just sticking to what the scripture
• 1:47:33
  says, literally everything we do the way we teach the way, we
• 1:47:38
  speak, the way we dress the way we pray.
• 1:47:41
  Every single thing comes from what we read in the word of God.
• 1:47:44
  So how can we exclude the word of God, when talking about God?
• 1:47:49
  It to me, that makes like, it's that talk about bananas.
• 1:47:53
  That's bananas to me. Yeah.
• 1:47:55
  I mean, and that's the same thing that Paul is telling
• 1:47:57
  Timothy, right? You have the, you have the
• 1:47:59
  likeness of it. But you but you like the power
• 1:48:02
  thereof. So it's like if if we're just
• 1:48:05
  going around saying, you know, we're just, you know that the
• 1:48:08
  same thing is you know what, what Paul says in First
• 1:48:11
  Corinthians 13, right? Without love.
• 1:48:13
  I'm like a noisy gong. Right, so I nothing, there is
• 1:48:18
  nothing without the gospel and so you go to First Peter 3:15,
• 1:48:23
  right? You say that, you know, the
• 1:48:25
  first thing that you do, Right? When when you give a defense
• 1:48:29
  before you even think about giving a defense, what do you
• 1:48:31
  do? Peter tells us in that in that
• 1:48:34
  very verse he says set apart Jesus set apart Christ as Lord.
• 1:48:41
  and then, You are able to give a defense give an apology
• 1:48:45
  apologia, rather a reasonable defense of the hope that is
• 1:48:50
  within you, but do it with gentleness and respect.
• 1:48:54
  That is apologetics 101. That's where we get it.
• 1:48:58
  But, but again, what does it do first?
• 1:49:02
  Well, that's the first commandment too.
• 1:49:04
  It does the very first of the Ten Commandments, right?
• 1:49:06
  Put God first right? Love the Lord your God with all
• 1:49:10
  your heart mind soul and strength.
• 1:49:11
  And Peter does not exclude that. But yeah, he adds Christ in
• 1:49:15
  there, it's not just Yahweh, he adds Christ, which Christ is
• 1:49:18
  Yahweh. So if you add Christ, set apart
• 1:49:21
  Christ as what Lord, the Divine name, Yahweh, just, you know,
• 1:49:28
  Look, and here's exactly, and just think about it this way. if
• 1:49:34
  his word was so unimportant to God, why would he keep it safe
• 1:49:40
  for all of these years? Why would he keep something
• 1:49:43
  safe? That is not of really, it's kind
• 1:49:47
  of significant, but not really significant.
• 1:49:49
  You need to think about it. More like, no, no, no.
• 1:49:51
  There's a reason why God made sure that his word was written
• 1:49:56
  down and preserve this entire time.
• 1:49:59
  You gotta understand too? Like think about it this way.
• 1:50:02
  The enemy has tried to attack one thing, one thing, only every
• 1:50:06
  single time, and what is it? The written word of God.
• 1:50:11
  Because that's where the power is.
• 1:50:13
  That's where the truth is. That's how we're set.
• 1:50:15
  Free is by the written word of God.
• 1:50:17
  Like you know, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word
• 1:50:21
  of God. And without having that.
• 1:50:25
  I mean it is just it's just sounding brass.
• 1:50:28
  It's just loud noise. That's all it is.
• 1:50:31
  It's just people's opinion. Talk about subjective and
• 1:50:33
  objective. That's the subject.
• 1:50:36
  Thinking right there to exclude the word of God.
• 1:50:39
  Right? Right.
• 1:50:41
  And and you're taking away the objective truth that that Christ
• 1:50:44
  is Lord at that point, right? If you're not, if that is not
• 1:50:48
  your presupposition, if that is not where you are rooted, Then
• 1:50:54
  you will ultimately strip. God of his power, in my opinion.
• 1:50:58
  Now, God can do whatever he wants, but, but we're not, we're
• 1:51:04
  supposed to preach the gospel. And, like you said, right?
• 1:51:07
  Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by the word of
• 1:51:11
  God, the gospel, right? And so without the gospel, if
• 1:51:15
  that is not front and center, then we are stripping salvation
• 1:51:19
  of its power. That is from God, right?
• 1:51:22
  So again The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
• 1:51:28
  So that is the very power of God and all.
• 1:51:31
  So Paul tells us in First Corinthians 15 he tells us that
• 1:51:34
  without the gospel. And without Christ resurrecting
• 1:51:39
  from the dead. We are the PD among all right,
• 1:51:43
  we were supposed to be more maybe than all. but in fact, he
• 1:51:46
  has Resurrected And so with that very fact and because we believe
• 1:51:52
  that we are sharing that and that is what changes lives. you
• 1:51:58
  know, so just like what I told him, you know, I told the
• 1:52:01
  Unitarian I was like, you know, if if you just change atheist to
• 1:52:07
  atheist then you don't get no closer to Yahweh, you don't get
• 1:52:11
  no closer to Jesus because there's so many different
• 1:52:13
  religions. It's insane.
• 1:52:15
  You can go down, Mormonism. You can go down jws, you can go
• 1:52:18
  down, Unitarianism, right? Which is not Christian.
• 1:52:21
  You can go down all these different rows. and, That don't
• 1:52:27
  get, you know where right if you're just a theist then that
• 1:52:30
  means you believe in a God not a specific God, right?
• 1:52:34
  So right, we are to change people or lead people down the
• 1:52:39
  same road that we believe is true and that is Christianity.
• 1:52:42
  And without that without Christ resurrected, there is no gospel
• 1:52:47
  and there is no power unto God of God unto salvation.
• 1:52:52
  Amen to that immense that, you know, what else?
• 1:52:54
  Thinking about the other day, too much.
• 1:52:56
  You know, we do our debates with the atheist and whatnot. oh, for
• 1:53:00
  for, for And this is my thoughts, but for people who
• 1:53:06
  really don't believe in God, their own title has something to
• 1:53:10
  do with God. The title that the atheists, you
• 1:53:14
  know, say, well, I'm proud atheist, even your own title,
• 1:53:18
  has the word theist in it, right?
• 1:53:21
  And that's how you can't even escape this, God, that the title
• 1:53:26
  that you are so proud to say, has something to do with, who
• 1:53:30
  God. Here's how I know that the god
• 1:53:34
  of the Bible is the Living God thinking about this too.
• 1:53:38
  No, no atheist. That.
• 1:53:41
  I personally have ever spoke to her on a YouTube channel red and
• 1:53:48
  in an article has ever said. Yeah, I'm here to to debate
• 1:53:51
  about the Buddhist God. As soon as you say the word god,
• 1:53:56
  do you believe in God who's the first God?
• 1:53:58
  They think of God of the Bible. Yeah, I'll wait God.
• 1:54:02
  Yeah. Why is that?
• 1:54:04
  Because the word of God is true, and it's living.
• 1:54:07
  He said that I have, nobody is without any excuse because I
• 1:54:10
  have written my law in their hearts.
• 1:54:12
  All will know who I am. All well, know who I am.
• 1:54:16
  And there's a reason why immediately, the god think of is
• 1:54:20
  Yahweh. Yeah, and that, that's, that's
• 1:54:24
  exactly the, the analogy are not the analogy, but the example
• 1:54:28
  that I gave is like an act 17, right?
• 1:54:30
  When Paul goes to Mars Hill, he goes to all those unbelievers
• 1:54:35
  that have the statues in their bowing to them, but what is
• 1:54:37
  engraved within the statues? The unknown.
• 1:54:40
  God. But what does he do?
• 1:54:42
  He doesn't say, oh, I know if this God and let me, let me get
• 1:54:46
  you a philosophy. Know what does he do?
• 1:54:48
  He comes at them with the gospel.
• 1:54:50
  He says, let me tell you about the God.
• 1:54:56
  You know what I mean, like, philosophy and arguments and the
• 1:54:59
  closet, the cosmological argument and, and all those
• 1:55:03
  other arguments are very good, right?
• 1:55:05
  The moral subjective objectivity, right?
• 1:55:07
  That's a great conversation. That's a great way to segue into
• 1:55:13
  the gospel or to come from the gospel.
• 1:55:15
  But ultimately, Without the gospel front and center.
• 1:55:22
  None of that. Is none of that means anything.
• 1:55:25
  Amen. And yeah, I mean, what were you
• 1:55:31
  saying? Keneisha I was just saying, what
• 1:55:34
  do you think about what what Mitch and I are talking about
• 1:55:36
  the special coming from atheism? I mean, what now being on the
• 1:55:42
  other side, Do you see how the the thought process and the
• 1:55:49
  theories and whatnot, about what you were being told as an
• 1:55:53
  atheist? Like what what do you think
• 1:55:56
  about that? Now, being on the other side
• 1:55:59
  like the thought process of there being no God. well, I
• 1:56:03
  think that everybody's got their own walk, their own personal
• 1:56:07
  relationship, but for me, as being a former atheist, Whatever
• 1:56:14
  I would get into discussions with people about the Bible to
• 1:56:18
  be straightforward with you as an unbeliever.
• 1:56:21
  It was only meant to be able to get a Christian and the gotcha
• 1:56:24
  thing or you get somebody into a trap.
• 1:56:27
  It was never meant to hear any kind of Truth and in fact, I
• 1:56:31
  know a lot of atheists that would turn on music and just
• 1:56:34
  blast it in their ear while the Christian was talking.
• 1:56:37
  So a lot of them are not looking for the truth.
• 1:56:40
  They're not looking for what is right?
• 1:56:41
  And a lot of them actually pretend as though their internet
• 1:56:45
  scientist or something. So I do find myself a lot of
• 1:56:49
  times especially with atheist because I was a former one, and
• 1:56:52
  they all know who I am. They come at me with science
• 1:56:55
  ago. Did you give up science, give up
• 1:56:58
  this, you know, how come you're not endorsing Evolution and
• 1:57:02
  unfortunately, I find myself having to go down that road with
• 1:57:05
  him a little bit, but I don't mind destroying their
• 1:57:08
  foundation. And then leaving the void, open
• 1:57:10
  for the gospel to drop right in. It works for me, But everybody's
• 1:57:15
  got their own. Their own way of doing things,
• 1:57:18
  some ways work better than others.
• 1:57:20
  I know this. Yeah.
• 1:57:22
  And and but that's the thing though, like the gospel is
• 1:57:25
  there. Its existence.
• 1:57:26
  I think, when, when you're going at any kind of argumentation or
• 1:57:32
  any kind of Again like you said, right, some some atheists are
• 1:57:37
  coming on. Just that got you moment or, you
• 1:57:39
  know, they're not really listening.
• 1:57:40
  They're just, they're just wanting to speak and talk and
• 1:57:43
  all that stuff and Mock and all that stuff.
• 1:57:45
  But um, again if if you just do the, the work of the ministry
• 1:57:51
  which is to you know give the gospel And then just like God do
• 1:57:56
  his work. Um, and I think, you know, just
• 1:57:59
  like you said, you know, the void is open straight for the
• 1:58:03
  gospel to just slide on in, and I think that's beautiful.
• 1:58:05
  And, and the way that you came from it, man.
• 1:58:08
  That's You know, you know exactly how to deal with that.
• 1:58:12
  And we need people like you. To be able to do what you do.
• 1:58:16
  Amen. One of the, one of the things
• 1:58:22
  that got me. One of the things that really,
• 1:58:25
  really was Hit me hard was I know this because atheists and
• 1:58:29
  religious people. We all have our moments where
• 1:58:32
  things are hard in Life or difficult or challenging and we
• 1:58:36
  all as human beings are looking for some kind of connection.
• 1:58:39
  And I discovered that if I needed somebody to talk to, I
• 1:58:43
  couldn't really depend on another non-believer.
• 1:58:45
  I discovered that if you talk to another non-believer and they
• 1:58:48
  get angry at you, you're gonna have a series or a documentary
• 1:58:52
  made about the next day. It's that simple.
• 1:58:54
  But I could sit there with older Christian women and men and, and
• 1:59:00
  private and talk to them. And they authentically cared
• 1:59:04
  about me. I could tell that they actually
• 1:59:06
  cared that there was some or some love, so it wasn't really a
• 1:59:11
  matter of how good they were preaching.
• 1:59:13
  It was really their actions, what I was seeing and feeling
• 1:59:18
  and stuff and it was a lot different than what I was
• 1:59:20
  getting in from people who like to bully and Mach I remember
• 1:59:25
  getting to a point where I would hear atheists attacking a
• 1:59:28
  Christian who was nice to me and I would say why are you guys
• 1:59:31
  treating him like that? He never did anything to you
• 1:59:34
  guys. He just believes that.
• 1:59:36
  He's trying to save you and you're you're shoveling crap
• 1:59:40
  into his face. And it started to aggravate me
• 1:59:43
  and I started realizing something was something was
• 1:59:46
  happening with me. Yeah, she really powerful that
• 1:59:51
  is really good. And absolutely.
• 1:59:55
  Yeah, what's going on, Michael? How you doing?
• 1:59:57
  I'm good. How are you doing?
• 1:59:59
  I'm doing good. What?
• 2:00:00
  Where do you land in this? Um, I am an atheist by which, I
• 2:00:07
  mean I I believe that God does not exist.
• 2:00:08
  That's right. You Okay, cool.
• 2:00:11
  Welcome. Yeah, yeah, welcome.
• 2:00:14
  Um, I've listened a few times to your stream, but I just had the
• 2:00:17
  time this time to hop on nice. Nice, awesome, Michael.
• 2:00:21
  You mind the passing simple question.
• 2:00:24
  Well, it depends on the question but sure, it's it's simple.
• 2:00:28
  Do you believe in the possibility or probability that
• 2:00:31
  there might be a god? Oh, I don't think that's simple.
• 2:00:34
  Oh, so I need I need to know what you mean by possibility.
• 2:00:39
  Well, do you believe that there's any chance whatsoever
• 2:00:42
  that there might be a higher power or an entity that created
• 2:00:45
  the universe? So I will say there's different
• 2:00:49
  types of possibility. So I will say it is possible for
• 2:00:51
  all. I know that God exists, I will
• 2:00:53
  say that. Okay, can you say that one more
• 2:00:57
  time? I did.
• 2:00:58
  And oh, yeah, I will say there's different types of possibility
• 2:01:04
  and I will say it is possible for all.
• 2:01:06
  I know that God exists. So you do believe in a
• 2:01:10
  possibility. At least I?
• 2:01:11
  Yeah, that that would be called. Philosophers will call that like
• 2:01:14
  epistemic possibility. I I think it is epistemically
• 2:01:17
  possible that God exists. Okay.
• 2:01:21
  So, how can you believe it's possible that there might be a
• 2:01:23
  God, but lack of belief and God, So I I'm not so yeah.
• 2:01:30
  Some some atheists will say that they lack of belief.
• 2:01:33
  I I said I believe that God does not exist.
• 2:01:35
  So I don't like lack of belief. Wow, I don't normally hear the
• 2:01:41
  positive assertion like that. Wow, go ahead, guys.
• 2:01:45
  Well, I, I've never heard of that, either normally I'm being
• 2:01:49
  corrected by that going the opposite way.
• 2:01:52
  So I appreciate that. So you and that, this is what I
• 2:01:57
  believe, atheism is, right? It's, it's not just the black,
• 2:02:00
  and the lack of belief. It is a belief that God does not
• 2:02:03
  exist because the, the arguments of God or the gospel itself does
• 2:02:08
  not. Penetrate you in a way where you
• 2:02:12
  can believe it. It does not.
• 2:02:14
  Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.
• 2:02:15
  I mean, I think that words don't have their meaning
• 2:02:18
  intrinsically. So I think that their index to
• 2:02:22
  context. So I think that the important
• 2:02:24
  thing is that people get on the same page and agree on what the
• 2:02:27
  words mean, and then, they can change the meaning in different
• 2:02:29
  contexts when they talk to different people, so where I
• 2:02:32
  come from and like, I so I study philosophy and philosophers,
• 2:02:35
  think of atheism, that way. So that's what I'm used to
• 2:02:38
  hearing. So, that's, that's how I think
• 2:02:39
  of the term. Did you grow up in a secular
• 2:02:42
  home? Or were you a former Christian
• 2:02:45
  with some kind of church? I grew up in a religious
• 2:02:49
  household. Okay.
• 2:02:51
  All right. I appreciate your honesty.
• 2:02:55
  Yeah, yeah. So um, that's typically the
• 2:02:59
  answer too. And that's what I've I mean,
• 2:03:02
  I've, I've talked to many different atheists and agnostics
• 2:03:05
  and all the rest and they typically came from a religious
• 2:03:10
  background or some sort of connection with the church or
• 2:03:13
  anything like that. Yeah.
• 2:03:16
  So, um, And it's it's normally something that happened. that
• 2:03:21
  turned them off from the from the from the Christian God, or
• 2:03:27
  God himself, right? And so, what would that be like?
• 2:03:31
  What? What persuaded you?
• 2:03:34
  Otherwise. Yeah, so nothing.
• 2:03:38
  Nothing like bad happened to me like in the church or anything,
• 2:03:41
  but I well, yeah, so I left, I don't know several years ago and
• 2:03:48
  I guess I was a period in time in my life where like I wanted
• 2:03:52
  to be I wanted to be different from everyone else.
• 2:03:56
  Because I wanted to be better than everyone else because I was
• 2:03:59
  arrogant. and for me that's like what being an atheist was
• 2:04:05
  because everyone that I know like was a Christian and so that
• 2:04:08
  was the way to be different and so, Yeah.
• 2:04:12
  That's that's how I could be better.
• 2:04:14
  So that's that's the long and short of it.
• 2:04:16
  That's why I left the original I really like you.
• 2:04:19
  Steve Michael, I don't really think I've came across someone
• 2:04:22
  who's just out on us as you are and admire that thank you for
• 2:04:27
  being so open like that. Yeah.
• 2:04:31
  Um it's been you know, it's been long enough that I feel
• 2:04:34
  comfortable saying that, you know, the closer in time it is
• 2:04:37
  the The harder it is to say something like that but it's
• 2:04:40
  been long enough that I'm like yeah that's that's what
• 2:04:42
  happened. Did you feel like it was a
• 2:04:44
  difficult transition over to atheism, or was it something it
• 2:04:51
  just kind of happened? um, Wasn't too difficult.
• 2:04:57
  Yeah, kind of just happened. I don't have I don't have a
• 2:05:02
  strong religious experience as so I didn't have a very strong
• 2:05:06
  tie I guess. Why is it important for you to
• 2:05:10
  be better than others? For Well, back then.
• 2:05:14
  I I'd like to think I'm a bit better about that now and that I
• 2:05:17
  don't have that urge to that strong of an extent, but back
• 2:05:21
  then, um, because probably I was Growing up leaving out.
• 2:05:27
  I was you know just added teenage years and I don't know
• 2:05:31
  that's how guys are when they're young.
• 2:05:33
  They want to be better. Well, Mitch, I don't want to
• 2:05:36
  dominate you and nieces room. If you guys want to hop in
• 2:05:39
  there, it's all cool trying to get to know him a little bit of
• 2:05:43
  a baseline here. Sure not.
• 2:05:45
  Go ahead. Do you deal?
• 2:05:48
  That's what this channel is all about, man.
• 2:05:50
  Everybody gets in it. So, Michael, would you consider
• 2:05:53
  yourself a soft or hard atheist or more agnostic atheist?
• 2:05:59
  I suspect, I know what you mean, but I think it'd be better if
• 2:06:04
  you told me what those terms mean.
• 2:06:07
  Well, usually hardcore atheist. Usually naturally transitioned
• 2:06:13
  to nihilism, you know what that is?
• 2:06:15
  I think yeah, yeah, I do. You're you consider yourself a
• 2:06:20
  nihilist, I do not. So you see yourself as more of a
• 2:06:25
  humanist optimistic. I don't I mean I've heard the
• 2:06:30
  term humanism but I don't know what they mean when they say or
• 2:06:33
  what people mean when they say and maybe maybe this will work
• 2:06:37
  better, more positive atheists, I yeah, I'm sorry.
• 2:06:44
  I don't know what positivity is means.
• 2:06:47
  Well, it means that the atheist actually has the subjective idea
• 2:06:51
  that he could contribute to the world, good things.
• 2:06:54
  All that usually is the type of person so that I don't need the
• 2:06:58
  Bible or God in order to do good as a person, is, with the
• 2:07:01
  nihilists, as I simply don't care.
• 2:07:03
  Nothing? Has value.
• 2:07:05
  We're nothing more than chemistry.
• 2:07:06
  How would you see yourself? Well, I do think that there is
• 2:07:11
  value in the world and I do think there are things worth
• 2:07:14
  pursuing. Um, now as a fact of historical
• 2:07:18
  accident, I do think that in the Western World, a lot of that
• 2:07:23
  came from the Bible. So I don't know if I agree with
• 2:07:27
  what you say about, like I don't need the Bible, I think there's
• 2:07:29
  a sense in which that's how it sort of turned out.
• 2:07:31
  I think it could have gone otherwise I think history could
• 2:07:33
  have played out otherwise. But as I think the way history
• 2:07:36
  did turn out, I think that's what happened.
• 2:07:38
  So atheism describes your view whenever it comes to God.
• 2:07:43
  Yeah. But what is your actual world
• 2:07:45
  view? I mean whenever it comes to
• 2:07:47
  whenever you're every human being has all when they look at
• 2:07:51
  the universe or whenever they look around them, at why the
• 2:07:56
  extraordinary things that happen?
• 2:07:58
  How do you, how do you view that and your worldview?
• 2:08:02
  So, yeah, I'm sorry. It's probably annoying when I
• 2:08:05
  asked for definitions all the time.
• 2:08:06
  But yeah, I don't, I don't know what you mean by worldview.
• 2:08:10
  Your view of the world. Yeah but people mean different
• 2:08:14
  things like do you want like where you know, what are your
• 2:08:17
  what are your morals? Like what do you get your sense
• 2:08:21
  of you shouldn't kill? Or if you think it's good to
• 2:08:25
  kill then where do you get that from?
• 2:08:26
  Like, where where do you hang on the bar as far as morals go in
• 2:08:31
  the world. So I am, I am a moral realist so
• 2:08:37
  I think that there are moral facts which are true
• 2:08:41
  independently of what anyone does or could think.
• 2:08:46
  And I think that I obtained knowledge of those moral facts
• 2:08:51
  through intuitions. And I think that moral
• 2:08:55
  properties are substantively different from natural
• 2:08:58
  properties. So, I don't think that moral
• 2:09:00
  properties are just like anything else in the world.
• 2:09:02
  I think they have to be. I think they have to be way
• 2:09:05
  different. So they're not like, you know,
• 2:09:06
  the shape or size of a physical object or something like that.
• 2:09:10
  They're not something that scientists study.
• 2:09:11
  I don't know if that answers your question but that's what.
• 2:09:14
  Okay, so so what I would like to ask is, do you believe in
• 2:09:18
  evolution? I swear I'm not trying to be
• 2:09:22
  annoying but like I I need the definition like what what do you
• 2:09:26
  mean? Well you know the the long
• 2:09:30
  period of time through billions billions of years that you know,
• 2:09:35
  one species became another and three-time we You know, became
• 2:09:42
  who we are from another species long billions of years ago.
• 2:09:48
  Yeah, becoming the handsome humans that we are today, right?
• 2:09:52
  If I understand you correctly, then then, yes, if I understand
• 2:09:57
  what you're saying properly. Okay, so you believe that we
• 2:10:00
  were once. you know, that that our ancestors basically, through
• 2:10:05
  billions and billions of years were like Sales or bacteria or
• 2:10:13
  fish or anything else? I don't know a lot about biology
• 2:10:19
  so I'm not sure that's what biologists say.
• 2:10:21
  But I do think that we have a long ancestry going back
• 2:10:26
  billions of years. And we were not how we are now
• 2:10:30
  billions of years ago. Right.
• 2:10:32
  That's yeah. I think that okay.
• 2:10:35
  So based off of proof, or based off of feeling, Neither.
• 2:10:43
  So, you wouldn't say that. You know, that they would be an
• 2:10:47
  actual proof. Of those things?
• 2:10:50
  No. I I don't think is the right
• 2:10:53
  kind of thing for evolution. So, do you believe in objective
• 2:10:57
  truth? if you me what I think, you mean
• 2:11:01
  by that, then yes, Okay. So like there is OTS, right?
• 2:11:07
  Or there are like there are more odds, right?
• 2:11:10
  You shall not murder. Okay?
• 2:11:11
  Like but then there are certain things like 2 plus 2 equals 4,
• 2:11:15
  right? Like that.
• 2:11:17
  That's an absolute truth. I would say that is true
• 2:11:21
  objectively. I don't know what you mean by.
• 2:11:23
  Absolutely. Well, you know that that's
• 2:11:25
  that's like to everybody right now.
• 2:11:27
  No matter what language you speak.
• 2:11:29
  No matter, you know, What background you're from or
• 2:11:33
  anything like that toothless to must equal four?
• 2:11:36
  You know? I mean, yeah, I'm gonna, yeah,
• 2:11:38
  okay, cool. All right.
• 2:11:39
  Can you she had anything? What just say something?
• 2:11:48
  Ours is asking if you had anything.
• 2:11:49
  So I saw that you came on me needed.
• 2:11:51
  Yeah um so I have I just have a question.
• 2:11:57
  This really goes to any atheist watching and and Michael, he
• 2:12:01
  was. Well, one thing I'm noticing is
• 2:12:03
  a pattern people who deny God And it's when there's something
• 2:12:09
  so simple to understand. Like Mitch said, absolutely.
• 2:12:14
  Why is it that this group of people know and and modern the
• 2:12:19
  modern world always says I don't know what truth.
• 2:12:23
  You mean to find the truth. When you know like, What is
• 2:12:28
  being said. I'm not saying that in a
• 2:12:30
  disrespectful way, but I'm noticing in the pattern which
• 2:12:32
  maybe you have noticed it too with the atheist that we talked
• 2:12:34
  to like when you when who was it, Austin, who was bringing up
• 2:12:38
  the two cases? These are two cases, right?
• 2:12:40
  And it's like going around like well they're not I can't really
• 2:12:44
  say is two cases, you know, Chris was just going on and on
• 2:12:48
  and it's like how can the most simplest things that Is simple
• 2:12:53
  words such as absolute and Truth beyond our next thing.
• 2:12:58
  Yeah. And I'll even I'll even go a
• 2:13:01
  little further. I I'm not gonna say this in the
• 2:13:03
  disrespectful way. So don't take it that way.
• 2:13:05
  Okay? But it almost seems like dodging
• 2:13:09
  oh um and the reason I say that is because it's almost like you
• 2:13:13
  know it's almost like you know we say well and and I don't
• 2:13:18
  think you have been Because even though you have been saying oh I
• 2:13:22
  need a definition that could possibly be kind of like I'm I'm
• 2:13:26
  trying to get around it and I'm trying to get a you know get
• 2:13:29
  them to understand what I think but also like you know you've
• 2:13:33
  been pretty honest with us and I appreciate that most atheists
• 2:13:37
  that we talk to are not like that, right?
• 2:13:39
  They're just kind of like, you know, kind of mushy and you know
• 2:13:44
  kind of you don't really have an actual direction to it.
• 2:13:48
  So I think we got an actual direction to go go with here.
• 2:13:52
  So what I heard you say was that you believe in objective truth
• 2:13:57
  or truth objectively. Okay.
• 2:13:59
  He's a way you want to put that. Yeah, you believe in that you
• 2:14:02
  believe in evolution in the way that I described it and in a
• 2:14:06
  certain kind of way like that. Right?
• 2:14:07
  Something that's sort of like that.
• 2:14:09
  Yeah. I mean it's it's hard for me to
• 2:14:11
  be precise there because I don't know.
• 2:14:12
  She's actually Evolution but we were something else billions of
• 2:14:16
  years ago. We, I think our ancestry goes
• 2:14:19
  back to something else billions of years ago.
• 2:14:23
  And it wasn't us, not right? Yeah.
• 2:14:26
  Okay. So um, so all these things
• 2:14:29
  right. Do you believe in this last
• 2:14:31
  question, okay. Do you believe for me anyway?
• 2:14:34
  Do you believe that that there is no purpose?
• 2:14:41
  Because you said that, you don't, you're not annihilist.
• 2:14:43
  So I would assume that you wouldn't believe this, but do,
• 2:14:47
  do you believe that there is actual purpose in life?
• 2:14:50
  I do believe there is actual purpose in life.
• 2:14:54
  Okay, where would you get that? So now I gotta go back to.
• 2:14:58
  What do you mean by? Let's get it from like I.
• 2:15:00
  Yeah. Where, where would you So okay
• 2:15:06
  basically I get mine from the Bible, right?
• 2:15:08
  I get from mine from God. Okay without God, where do you
• 2:15:12
  get your purpose in life? Okay.
• 2:15:14
  Do you get it just by human interaction through, you know,
• 2:15:20
  different things in society, you know, scientists tell us certain
• 2:15:27
  things. So that's our purpose in life.
• 2:15:28
  Like, where do you get that? Purpose.
• 2:15:31
  Yeah, so I think I think purpose objective purpose is active and
• 2:15:38
  engagement in a project of worth.
• 2:15:42
  So I have two parts to that. I think that active engagement
• 2:15:46
  is basically like you are invested in and enjoying the
• 2:15:50
  thing that you're participating in and then the project of worth
• 2:15:54
  is something that is like worth engaging in.
• 2:15:57
  And so I think if you have those two things together then you
• 2:16:01
  have you're living an objectively valuable life.
• 2:16:04
  Oh, okay. So wouldn't you see the
• 2:16:08
  inconsistencies in that and evolution.
• 2:16:13
  I'll be honest, it's not obvious to me.
• 2:16:16
  Okay, so the way that I see it is that it is inconsistent to
• 2:16:21
  say that there is absolute purpose and objective, purpose
• 2:16:24
  to anything and you can get absolute anything.
• 2:16:29
  From. Ancestry of bacteria.
• 2:16:33
  Okay. And so basically like fish
• 2:16:36
  became fill, you know philosophical, right?
• 2:16:40
  They went to college and they got you know, degrees in which
• 2:16:43
  we are okay. And so basically right, we are
• 2:16:48
  no different. Than matter floating around.
• 2:16:52
  Would you be in that perspective?
• 2:16:53
  No, I do not hold that view. Okay, so you believe that we are
• 2:16:58
  like we actually have okay. So the purpose that we have is
• 2:17:04
  just basically human interaction Society, interaction, stuff like
• 2:17:09
  that like how we interact with others?
• 2:17:11
  That would be our objective purpose in life.
• 2:17:14
  I think it's plausible that we could live meaningful lives
• 2:17:19
  without human interaction. Okay, so we could without human
• 2:17:24
  reaction human interaction laws about okay?
• 2:17:27
  so you you don't see yourself as How do I put this?
• 2:17:33
  Um when you look in the mirror, do you only see just the body?
• 2:17:38
  Do you feel like there's more to you?
• 2:17:40
  That something transcends, a flush that you're more than just
• 2:17:44
  animated hamburger? So I do think I'm more than an
• 2:17:50
  animated hamburger. That is what you'd be surprised.
• 2:17:53
  Michael. There's a lot of people out
• 2:17:55
  there that that like nihilist, right?
• 2:17:57
  There's a lot of people your fellow atheists that would
• 2:17:59
  disagree with you and yeah, that there is absolute.
• 2:18:03
  No. Nothing.
• 2:18:05
  There is nothing. Okay.
• 2:18:06
  And so when I'm trying to get you to understand is is without
• 2:18:09
  God because what it sounds like to me, that a lot of things that
• 2:18:12
  you believe in comes from a Biblical background.
• 2:18:17
  That might be right. I might think those things
• 2:18:19
  because of my religious. Why almost certainly believe
• 2:18:21
  those things? Because of my religious
• 2:18:22
  upbringing? Yeah.
• 2:18:23
  So so you would have to borrow from the Christianity worldview.
• 2:18:28
  In order to have your cake and eat it, too.
• 2:18:30
  Because you cannot that's basically, like, Okay, you you
• 2:18:40
  could not say that there is no God but yet you can borrow from
• 2:18:44
  the system that he created. What would it mean to borrow
• 2:18:49
  from the system that God created?
• 2:18:52
  Well, like for instance, right? You shall not murder.
• 2:18:57
  I mean like do you believe that murder is objectively wrong?
• 2:18:59
  Yes. okay, well, In your worldview in the atheistic.
• 2:19:05
  Worldview, not saying that. You personally have hold of this
• 2:19:08
  because it doesn't sound like you do.
• 2:19:09
  It sounds like to me you're a pretty good Christian, you just
• 2:19:13
  need to believe in God, okay? But The atheistic world of you.
• 2:19:18
  Okay. They say that they don't have a
• 2:19:20
  worldview. I disagree.
• 2:19:21
  I think everything has a worldview.
• 2:19:23
  And so if you have a world view of that there is absolutely
• 2:19:27
  nothing outside of this world outside of the material, okay,
• 2:19:31
  that You say what? I don't hold to that.
• 2:19:35
  I don't think there is nothing outside of the physical world.
• 2:19:38
  Okay? So that that's what I'm saying.
• 2:19:40
  So you sound like a Christian okay.
• 2:19:42
  Ultimately so what I'm saying here is like okay. uh, with an
• 2:19:47
  atheistic worldview, you have subjectivity above all So, what
• 2:19:52
  I mean by that is like okay. My my position is that, you
• 2:19:56
  know, me and your position we can agree.
• 2:19:58
  Okay. We can agree that murder is
• 2:20:00
  wrong objectively, right? Like there is no if ands or buts
• 2:20:04
  about it. That is a moral ought.
• 2:20:05
  You ought not to murder. Somebody.
• 2:20:09
  Yeah, what I would you agree with that?
• 2:20:10
  Yeah yeah okay. So there are atheists.
• 2:20:13
  Pretty much all of them, right? That are hardcore atheists.
• 2:20:17
  That would say otherwise, they would say that there is no moral
• 2:20:22
  ought to anything. okay, because in their worldview, Why would
• 2:20:28
  you? Why would you shed a tear?
• 2:20:31
  When a rock falls and hits another rock.
• 2:20:34
  Do you cry about that? No, because they're that we're
• 2:20:38
  the same thing. Is that Okay.
• 2:20:40
  We come from the same thing. We're all matter.
• 2:20:42
  We did nothing matters and so we're all matter and nothing
• 2:20:45
  matters, right? I should put that on a shirt
• 2:20:47
  anyway, that. Hey, there you go.
• 2:20:52
  Oh, all right then but what I'm saying here is like you cannot
• 2:20:58
  have you can You can believe whatever you want to.
• 2:21:03
  It's up to you. You can believe whatever you
• 2:21:05
  want to. But what I'm saying here is that
• 2:21:07
  that you? What you, what you've been
• 2:21:09
  saying? Do not Collide very well.
• 2:21:11
  They don't mix. Okay.
• 2:21:12
  And so when you're an atheist and you say there is no God.
• 2:21:17
  But yet you're coming over here saying all the things that God
• 2:21:20
  cares about right within a Christianity within
• 2:21:24
  Christianity. Right?
• 2:21:25
  We are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.
• 2:21:27
  We are to take care of one another.
• 2:21:29
  We are to hold morals, right, which is what God says, and in
• 2:21:35
  the Bible, everything. That you have said, come from
• 2:21:40
  that worldview. Atheism, does not give you any
• 2:21:44
  of that. So in order for you to call
• 2:21:46
  yourself an atheist, you would have to abandon literally
• 2:21:50
  everything that you believe. I'm not I'm not, I'm not so sure
• 2:21:55
  about that, but I think I think we have not been very clear
• 2:21:58
  about definitions up front and that might be causing us to talk
• 2:22:01
  past one another. That's why I like to inquire
• 2:22:04
  about definitions. I think you're I think there
• 2:22:07
  might be a way where we could figure out why.
• 2:22:09
  This is the case. How long ago was it that you
• 2:22:13
  walk away from Christianity, six?
• 2:22:16
  Seven years? How old are you?
• 2:22:18
  I'm 26. Okay, so there's you still got
• 2:22:23
  some, some wiring and of it, this is where the morality is
• 2:22:28
  coming from. Do you understand what we're
• 2:22:30
  talking about though? About the objective and
• 2:22:33
  subjective morality. See if there is no God, if you
• 2:22:37
  put God on the back burner here, then you're stuck with either
• 2:22:41
  blaming. Whatever it is that you feel you
• 2:22:44
  have and you are and what you've learned from Humanity or you
• 2:22:48
  believe that somehow evolved into you somehow through nature?
• 2:22:53
  What do you hold responsible for giving you this moral framework.
• 2:22:58
  I think it's what Mitch was trying to get that.
• 2:23:01
  Sorry so the question I didn't quite catch.
• 2:23:04
  The question where you where do you believe that you get your
• 2:23:07
  moral framework? If we put God on the back burner
• 2:23:10
  and we put any any clue of a higher power, anything like
• 2:23:14
  this, that would create the objective morality framework of
• 2:23:19
  the universe then where you get that from.
• 2:23:21
  If you've got no God to base it on.
• 2:23:24
  So if we understand get from his like, acquire knowledge of, I
• 2:23:29
  don't know if that's what you mean, but if that's what you
• 2:23:31
  mean. Then I think there are moral
• 2:23:33
  facts that are. I mean, those are abstract
• 2:23:36
  entities, they're not in the physical world and I acquire
• 2:23:39
  knowledge of them three and tuitions But that's the, that's
• 2:23:42
  the thing. Michael, I'll give you an
• 2:23:44
  example of something. And and Mitch is probably got a
• 2:23:47
  few and I'm sure ganesha's got some too.
• 2:23:49
  There's some atheists out there that think it's perfectly fine
• 2:23:53
  to rob an entire civilization and wipe out 20 million people
• 2:23:58
  like Joseph Stalin without even blinking an eye on that.
• 2:24:02
  Why? Because we're not the more than
• 2:24:04
  chemicals, we're nothing more than a bottle of Windex to him.
• 2:24:07
  You knocked it over, who cares people?
• 2:24:10
  Die people come. And they go who cares.
• 2:24:12
  So, where you get your foundation from, what, what
• 2:24:17
  stops you, what is the mechanism that causes you not to be well,
• 2:24:21
  the bad guy? Yeah, so I would think what
• 2:24:26
  stops me from doing that is Justified, moral beliefs.
• 2:24:32
  Right. But again, no know so but but
• 2:24:38
  that's the thing though, because everybody disagrees with you, so
• 2:24:43
  it's like your subject that turns that you're that the
• 2:24:48
  Objectiveness that, you are appealing to right now is
• 2:24:51
  subjective because in your worldview because other people
• 2:24:55
  have their own subjectivity and it will go against you.
• 2:25:00
  So, I don't think disagreements entails disagreement about a
• 2:25:06
  domain entails that facts in that domain are subjective.
• 2:25:09
  Because I think people can disagree about things that are
• 2:25:12
  objectively, true. Well, no, because if if it is
• 2:25:17
  objective, that means that there is no personal anything, there's
• 2:25:21
  no personal feelings attached to it, there's no personal anything
• 2:25:26
  attached to it. It is what it is, it is and
• 2:25:28
  ought, And so with, if you're done, yeah, yeah. if you have a
• 2:25:35
  moral ought, Okay, you shall not murder right?
• 2:25:39
  Like that's straight up. But Hitler agreed with a
• 2:25:43
  disagree with you. Yeah.
• 2:25:44
  So, without there is no moral odd with you.
• 2:25:48
  So how does Hitler's disagreement mean that?
• 2:25:50
  That truth is not objective. Exactly.
• 2:25:57
  He just made the point. I guess.
• 2:25:59
  I didn't follow Michael by you saying that about Hitler.
• 2:26:03
  What makes it not the objective truth?
• 2:26:05
  You're basically you just he just dropped the bomb on himself
• 2:26:10
  brother. Oh, I, I guess I I don't follow
• 2:26:17
  how that happened. Because through your morality
• 2:26:20
  you Justified, a pretty, pretty naughty, man, in history of
• 2:26:27
  anything you want to talk about. yeah, I I don't want to make
• 2:26:35
  Michael Phil because it's kind of hard because there's three
• 2:26:38
  Christians one to atheist right now and I feel bad you know I
• 2:26:43
  don't have um but I I want to ask you like are because it
• 2:26:48
  sounds like and this is just me listening so please correct me
• 2:26:52
  Michael if there's any point I'm wrong but it sounds like it's
• 2:26:55
  kind of like a rebellious thing that you're you're kind of going
• 2:27:00
  through and my question really and I'm trying to summon up very
• 2:27:07
  quick so forgive me my but my question to you really is, are
• 2:27:11
  you are you okay with playing so loosely?
• 2:27:14
  Like not all the way over here and not all the all the way over
• 2:27:18
  here because I know Jesus says and I know that you don't
• 2:27:21
  believe in this but she's says, I would rather you were hot or
• 2:27:24
  cold. but since you're lukewarm, You know, and and that it just
• 2:27:30
  worries me like listening to you because it sounds like you're
• 2:27:33
  one foot in one foot out on both sides and you're kind of, I'm
• 2:27:39
  perceiving it. Like you're taking all this very
• 2:27:42
  Loosely and I just encourage you to not be so because what if,
• 2:27:47
  what if we're right, you know, if and and I hate when I hear
• 2:27:51
  and you haven't done this. But I hate when I hear a DSA.
• 2:27:53
  You're trying to use this Theory.
• 2:27:54
  No, I'm not using any Theory. It's true.
• 2:27:57
  If Christianity is wrong, when we die there's there's nothing
• 2:28:01
  then we don't lose anything. Like nothing happens.
• 2:28:04
  We didn't lose absolutely nothing.
• 2:28:06
  But if us Christians are, right, Then do you know the cost that
• 2:28:12
  is coming with that and is that something that you're okay with
• 2:28:15
  even and it's not even just about you.
• 2:28:19
  You talk about it and encouraging, your friends,
• 2:28:21
  encouraging your family members, like, you know, to to stay in
• 2:28:26
  this type of mindset and these beliefs, like you're okay. if
• 2:28:31
  there is even the slightest chance that we're actually
• 2:28:33
  saying something that is The truth.
• 2:28:36
  Like you're just it's kind of just very loose so forgive me
• 2:28:40
  for dragging it on but that's the way I'm perceiving all this
• 2:28:43
  and I just want to like pause and like Ask you are you are you
• 2:28:48
  really that okay with you and everybody around you?
• 2:28:51
  You know, is influenced by you because I'm pretty sure there's
• 2:28:54
  people influenced by your words by your actions, by the things
• 2:28:58
  you listen to buy, how you react. and, Does that not bother
• 2:29:03
  you at all? So, What?
• 2:29:07
  So the I'm being asked if it bothers me if I'm influencing
• 2:29:13
  people by being by being loose and like, halfway in.
• 2:29:18
  Could you clarify like halfway and halfway out being loose?
• 2:29:21
  Like my goal, my goal. You're you said, you were a
• 2:29:25
  former Chris and so I and you are articulate, your, obviously
• 2:29:30
  intelligent. I am starting to sense that you
• 2:29:33
  were your playing now. Um, okay, so maybe I should give
• 2:29:37
  some background about myself then because I am being sincere,
• 2:29:41
  I study philosophy. I'm in a philosophy department.
• 2:29:45
  And when I write papers and when I read papers, I mean it takes
• 2:29:49
  so much effort and time up front to Define terms so that people
• 2:29:52
  can be precise and communicate exactly what they want to
• 2:29:55
  communicate. So that any discussion that
• 2:29:56
  happens is productive. And so my if you were even a
• 2:30:02
  person for a month you would, the first thing would have found
• 2:30:04
  out is they would have told you there's a higher power that
• 2:30:07
  Creed the universe very powerful entity that is submission, all
• 2:30:12
  knowing all powerful, you would have been told that there's two
• 2:30:15
  different places there is everlasting life with Jesus or
• 2:30:20
  there's the other way and I'm sure you got to explain this.
• 2:30:23
  So when you're asking us to clarify something while
• 2:30:26
  admitting that you were a former Chris and that's where I start
• 2:30:31
  feeling. Like there's some play games
• 2:30:33
  going on here. Well, so, yeah, I was told all
• 2:30:35
  that and I don't think I asked for clarification about like,
• 2:30:39
  heaven or hell or anything like that.
• 2:30:42
  So Ganesha is telling you Michael that if we're wrong.
• 2:30:46
  If me mentioned Ganesha wrong, then we're simply going to
• 2:30:50
  become bug meat. And that's it.
• 2:30:52
  It's over into the story Universe goes, bye-bye, and
• 2:30:56
  we're not even an echo, our memory of the universe great.
• 2:30:59
  But if we're right then what does Christianity tell you, you
• 2:31:04
  were a former Christian. Yeah.
• 2:31:06
  So what I was taught was eternal conscious torment.
• 2:31:10
  So, if that's what you mean, I don't know if Kenisha believes
• 2:31:13
  that Eternal Consciousness, true.
• 2:31:15
  So that's why I was asking. Um, but if that is what you
• 2:31:19
  think, then if you were right, and if you don't, if you die, I
• 2:31:23
  believe in that. God does not exist.
• 2:31:24
  That's what gets you in your, internal conscious torment.
• 2:31:26
  Then that's what would be a waiting for me.
• 2:31:27
  After I died. What is he kernel?
• 2:31:30
  Conscious tournament? I take that to be fairly self as
• 2:31:38
  a dent. Is there a particular part that
• 2:31:40
  you want me to expand on? Yeah, what did they teach you?
• 2:31:44
  um yeah, I was taught that Hell is the absence of God, for first
• 2:31:50
  of all um, and that is. All right.
• 2:31:54
  Sorry, I'm just saying you were taught right?
• 2:31:57
  Oh yeah. And that people who don't want
• 2:32:00
  God, now won't want God later. And so people who don't make up
• 2:32:06
  their mind to follow God, they will be separated from God for
• 2:32:09
  eternity. And that is torment.
• 2:32:12
  Because God is the source of all good and value.
• 2:32:15
  And so if you are separated from that, then you will be tormented
• 2:32:19
  by that. And we kind of think that, you
• 2:32:21
  know, because we're You know, it seems like we can believe that
• 2:32:24
  God does not exist, but still live good lives.
• 2:32:26
  Now once we might think that that might continue later, but
• 2:32:29
  that's because I can't remember the term, but there's some kind
• 2:32:32
  of like, there's like common Grace, there's Saving Grace, and
• 2:32:35
  common Grace, and we live in God's common Grace right now,
• 2:32:37
  but that won't happen after we die.
• 2:32:38
  That's what I was told. Well, my clothes sounds like.
• 2:32:42
  So my thoughts, right? I think it's even gave the
• 2:32:45
  thumbs up on that, so that's what Ganesha was getting that.
• 2:32:48
  She said if we're wrong then we'd take a dirt nap and the
• 2:32:53
  story. But if we're right Well, do you
• 2:32:56
  want to gamble with the Universe on that?
• 2:32:59
  That's I think what she was getting at.
• 2:33:01
  Am I right? Ganesha.
• 2:33:02
  Correct me from wrong. No, you're, you're right.
• 2:33:05
  And, you know, and I'm going to give the panel back to you guys,
• 2:33:08
  but I, I just want to like encourage you with something.
• 2:33:11
  I understand you're in philosophy, Michael.
• 2:33:13
  But listen, the real people in the real world, we just need to
• 2:33:16
  have regular conversations, just simplify it.
• 2:33:19
  This is a, this is a frustration of a lot of people's things are
• 2:33:22
  too over complicated on the most simple things.
• 2:33:25
  Like, let's just be Regular people to each other and the the
• 2:33:31
  conflicts that are coming in the world is because everyone's
• 2:33:33
  trying to overcomplicate something that is very simple.
• 2:33:36
  Men are trying to their women and and this is trying to go
• 2:33:39
  here and it's only black lives that matter and it's all these
• 2:33:42
  things because everyone's overcomplicating something as
• 2:33:45
  simple as Love is not about your skin color.
• 2:33:49
  Marriage is between the man and woman, it's very simple.
• 2:33:53
  And these the entire world. It's overdoing something and
• 2:33:59
  making something that is not right now.
• 2:34:01
  I believe what we're talking see in a few points where we have to
• 2:34:06
  Define definitions but not every single thing coming out needs to
• 2:34:10
  be defined and I just encourage you just simplify this
• 2:34:14
  conversation just Listen to what is being said.
• 2:34:18
  And if anything is misrepresented, then clarify
• 2:34:21
  yourself. But every point doesn't need to
• 2:34:24
  be clarified because we're never going to get anywhere.
• 2:34:26
  We're going to spend two more hours.
• 2:34:28
  Defining definitions about ABCDEFG when it's very, very
• 2:34:34
  simple and I don't mean that in any disrespectful way.
• 2:34:37
  But it's very frustrating because this is the way the
• 2:34:39
  world's operating. Now, we can't just have a
• 2:34:41
  regular conversation, like regular human beings.
• 2:34:44
  Everybody has to throw a degree. Everybody has to throw this
• 2:34:47
  there and we're not getting anywhere.
• 2:34:52
  And I respect what you do. I respect.
• 2:34:54
  You sound very intelligent. I love your honesty, I'm glad
• 2:34:57
  that you're here tonight, but I'm trying to get somewhere in
• 2:34:59
  the conversation and it's trying, it's a little hard when
• 2:35:03
  we have to pause every moment and and redefine the simple
• 2:35:07
  things and I'm sorry I know you don't know me Michael but I'm
• 2:35:10
  very just Straightforward. Like Mitch is very graceful.
• 2:35:14
  Brett is very graceful. I'm not always the most graceful
• 2:35:18
  and I'm trying to be because I really actually care about this
• 2:35:22
  conversation right now. She's great.
• 2:35:25
  Canesha is great. All right, she's awesome.
• 2:35:28
  Don't worry Alicia I got my moments too.
• 2:35:31
  Yeah me too me too me too. I would.
• 2:35:33
  Yeah Michael. Can you do us a favor?
• 2:35:37
  Could you not make everything complicated especially stuff
• 2:35:41
  that you know deep down inside you already know.
• 2:35:43
  There's no reason to go that route come on.
• 2:35:46
  So I I'd like to say a couple things about what can I see?
• 2:35:49
  I just said so I I'd like to say that I think a lot of the
• 2:35:54
  problems in the world are because people don't take the
• 2:35:57
  time to understand each other and they don't respect each
• 2:36:01
  other and the positions, the other people hold enough to
• 2:36:03
  understand what the positions are.
• 2:36:05
  And so I take the time to request clarification and find
• 2:36:11
  because I respect Christianity as a religion enough to care
• 2:36:15
  enough to relate take It seriously and where I come from
• 2:36:18
  that's how we try and figure out what is true is by being precise
• 2:36:23
  and clear and then thinking hard about it.
• 2:36:25
  And so yeah, it does take time but I think it's worth it
• 2:36:28
  because I think figuring out what the fact of the matter is
• 2:36:31
  about question's like these is tremendously valuable and worth
• 2:36:34
  investing in. Yeah, so I fully agree.
• 2:36:38
  I'm a Bible teacher. I go hard and and really
• 2:36:41
  observing what is being said? And again I know you don't know
• 2:36:45
  me but I take that very seriously.
• 2:36:46
  But I'm talking about simple conversations, like don't over
• 2:36:50
  complicate a simple conversation like some things if I'm saying
• 2:36:56
  what color is this and it's red. Just say it's red.
• 2:36:59
  Don't get into this long drawn-out loss.
• 2:37:01
  It's actually Indigo Kenisha, right?
• 2:37:05
  Here basically like sorry. Can you show but real quick?
• 2:37:11
  Like basically, when when we like ask a question, it's like
• 2:37:16
  you back up one inch and then you draw a line, you say, jump
• 2:37:19
  over that one real quick. And then and then we do and then
• 2:37:22
  you jump back and you're like well jump over this one real
• 2:37:24
  quick, you know, it's just like you just creating boundaries and
• 2:37:27
  I think when you're saying, when you need to clarify certain
• 2:37:30
  things, we agree with that but certain things not everything.
• 2:37:35
  Not not literally everything. So, what I'm saying here is like
• 2:37:39
  when when Kenisha was going on about You know, one one foot in
• 2:37:45
  one foot out, okay, yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 2:37:49
  So what we were trying to say was and I think we're all on the
• 2:37:52
  same page here. I think, when we can see God
• 2:37:57
  written all over your stuff right, written all over your
• 2:37:59
  belief systems and and what I'm trying to get at is that if you
• 2:38:04
  follow your atheism, to the to what it actually is, you're
• 2:38:08
  going to have to give up every bit of that.
• 2:38:11
  That's just, that's just what it is.
• 2:38:13
  Because again if you're trying to Define all these things, well
• 2:38:17
  you need to Define these things, okay?
• 2:38:19
  So when it comes to what an atheist is, you have to follow
• 2:38:22
  the criteria. You have to follow the, the
• 2:38:25
  check marks, okay? If you're a Christian, you have
• 2:38:29
  to follow the check marks, if you're a Muslim, you have to
• 2:38:31
  follow the check marks, right? What we believe in what?
• 2:38:33
  We don't believe in the baggage, that follows, okay?
• 2:38:37
  So again, if you're an atheist and you claim to be an atheist,
• 2:38:41
  then you cannot take from our checklist.
• 2:38:46
  Okay, you have to get your own. and you have to check the boxes
• 2:38:50
  and from what it sounding like, you don't want to live that way.
• 2:38:56
  You don't want to live like an atheist because if you did, you
• 2:38:59
  would have to give up everything that you care about.
• 2:39:03
  And you can talk to any atheist, you can talk to, you know, all
• 2:39:06
  the Big Tymers, right? I forget his name. one of the
• 2:39:10
  last things that he said, was that, There was no good and
• 2:39:14
  evil, there's just pitless and difference.
• 2:39:16
  Oh yeah, that's Dawkins. Yes, Richard Dawkins.
• 2:39:19
  So, um, yeah, that's that's like That's crazy, man.
• 2:39:24
  That is crazy. That's that's what he thinks.
• 2:39:27
  I mean, I'm free to disagree with them.
• 2:39:28
  Yeah, but he's an atheist. So, what I'm saying here is
• 2:39:31
  like, if you don't want to give yourself a title, We can get
• 2:39:36
  with that. We can work around that.
• 2:39:38
  But if you want to title yourself as an atheist, then
• 2:39:41
  there's baggage that comes along with that and you cannot take
• 2:39:44
  from our worldview and then push it onto yours because it
• 2:39:47
  doesn't, it doesn't go well together.
• 2:39:50
  All right. I guess they do what's funny
• 2:39:53
  about it. I'm not trying to be offensive
• 2:39:56
  or bigger than it or anything like that, but I think you would
• 2:40:00
  find yourself in the same Rod if you were in a room called with
• 2:40:03
  atheists, right now, talk in the way you do you find them, you do
• 2:40:08
  Michael. Um, well, I don't talk to
• 2:40:11
  atheist that much. Um, but when I do, I find myself
• 2:40:14
  in disagreement with them. I try to, you know, when I'm
• 2:40:18
  around, when I'm around atheists, I try to defend
• 2:40:20
  whatever it is, they're picking on.
• 2:40:22
  And yeah, you know, I just like to defend the alternative with
• 2:40:26
  you that I find myself around, I guess.
• 2:40:27
  So what I would like. So I think it's good night.
• 2:40:31
  I gotta get the baby to bed, but thank you, everybody.
• 2:40:35
  Thank you. Yeah.
• 2:40:41
  So I think one question would would pretty much just kind of
• 2:40:45
  get where it is and I don't I think you already answered.
• 2:40:49
  I'm not, I'm not completely sure.
• 2:40:52
  Why exactly, did you? Believe the faith.
• 2:40:58
  Yeah, so I left the faith. I mean, it's complicated.
• 2:41:00
  But if I was to condense it, I would say it's because I was in
• 2:41:04
  a period of my life where I wanted to be different so that I
• 2:41:06
  could be better. And that's what atheism looked
• 2:41:09
  like, to me. It was what very few people
• 2:41:11
  were. So we'd be different.
• 2:41:12
  And then that would let me feel like I was better than other
• 2:41:14
  people. But that's why you were you
• 2:41:19
  changed since then? Yeah.
• 2:41:21
  I thought actually was asking about what was the case.
• 2:41:23
  Yeah. But but so the case is, is that
• 2:41:27
  you wanted to, I know you said it's more complicated.
• 2:41:29
  So does it have anything to do with what the Bible says, or any
• 2:41:33
  contradictions that you might have found or anything to do
• 2:41:36
  with the gospel itself? That Jesus is not actually God
• 2:41:38
  or anything else? None of that.
• 2:41:40
  I didn't know much about alleged contradictions.
• 2:41:46
  Okay, I don't I mean I know a little bit about them now but
• 2:41:49
  not not too much. So what so your belief system
• 2:41:54
  really comes from basically you wanted to be different and you
• 2:41:58
  wanted to go into another Thing, that went against the great,
• 2:42:02
  alright. That went against.
• 2:42:05
  Everything else that you believed in before, and you just
• 2:42:07
  wanted to go into this, because it seemed popular or it seemed
• 2:42:11
  less popular and that's what made you.
• 2:42:13
  It seemed more appealing to be the minority.
• 2:42:17
  Yeah, that's why. That's why?
• 2:42:19
  Yeah. Okay, so I had nothing to do
• 2:42:21
  with the gospel that had nothing to do with actually God himself.
• 2:42:26
  In it has nothing to do with that.
• 2:42:28
  It's just what seemed more appealing to you as the
• 2:42:32
  minority. Uh yeah that's that's what
• 2:42:35
  happened I think. so so you were so you were a Christian, you
• 2:42:39
  said, I mean, I don't know. I don't know what.
• 2:42:42
  You're the illogical views are on some things.
• 2:42:45
  I don't know if I'm begging the question against you if I say
• 2:42:46
  that but that's how I see it. So what would you do?
• 2:42:50
  I mean you're you're obviously wanting to be unique but what
• 2:42:55
  happens when they is and and unfortunately the stats do say
• 2:43:00
  that they do is have a small ride a little by little it's
• 2:43:04
  gradually moving up when it gets does it get to a point where
• 2:43:08
  it's too popular for you. It's time to jump in something
• 2:43:10
  else. Well, I like to think that I've
• 2:43:13
  improved as a person and matured a bit since I was 20.
• 2:43:17
  And so, I don't think I'm that way very much anymore.
• 2:43:21
  I think I probably have that tendency in me.
• 2:43:23
  I think I always will, but I think I have the, to a much
• 2:43:25
  lesser extent. And so I think I'm capable of
• 2:43:27
  changing my mind for other reasons.
• 2:43:29
  Okay. So would you rather, would you
• 2:43:31
  rather actually look for truth? and to see if there's an if
• 2:43:37
  there is actually a god rather than just going around saying
• 2:43:41
  that there is no God and actually believing in your heart
• 2:43:44
  that there is no God just because it's it's something that
• 2:43:47
  you won't to believe like there's no actually Any kind of
• 2:43:51
  foundation, any kind of Route towards it.
• 2:43:53
  Anything that actually Like leads you to that conclusion
• 2:43:58
  because atheism. Right, they believe in. you
• 2:44:03
  know, you gotta, you gotta, you know, follow the evidence where
• 2:44:07
  at least, And so it don't sound like to me.
• 2:44:10
  That's what you did. I did not of course Christianity
• 2:44:13
  is in that way too. You know we we follow the
• 2:44:16
  evidence to where it leads. So we're both But what I'm
• 2:44:19
  saying here is like if you if you didn't jump ship because of
• 2:44:23
  anything about God, yeah. But then your belief system is
• 2:44:28
  is surrounded by the whole notion that there is no God.
• 2:44:32
  And then that there had to be something that turns you off.
• 2:44:36
  from God, not just Oh, those guys are going that way.
• 2:44:40
  They look pretty cool. Let me go jump with them.
• 2:44:43
  Yeah, I mean it was a little more complicated.
• 2:44:45
  I mean I guess I I read on There was this book, I read it was
• 2:44:51
  like fantasy. I mean, this this isn't going to
• 2:44:54
  be very satisfying to you, but like, I guess I'm bringing in
• 2:44:56
  another piece but like, yeah, there was a fantasy book.
• 2:44:59
  I read and I, you know, I developed respect for the author
• 2:45:02
  and then like years later, I realized he was an atheist and
• 2:45:05
  so that kind of like got me thinking about it a bit more.
• 2:45:09
  So that was that was one thing but I don't think yeah.
• 2:45:12
  I mean I don't think that's the kind of thing you're looking
• 2:45:13
  for. Right?
• 2:45:15
  But when I'm trying to get at is like, there's nothing that turns
• 2:45:19
  you off from God. So how can you sit there and say
• 2:45:21
  that there is no God if you have an even went through the process
• 2:45:24
  yet? Oh Well, I, you know, like I
• 2:45:26
  said, I think I've changed a bit as a person.
• 2:45:29
  I mean after that point in time I did think about evidence is
• 2:45:32
  for, and against God and Christianity.
• 2:45:34
  It's just that point in time when I first left, that's not
• 2:45:37
  what I was doing. Can we try something real quick?
• 2:45:41
  Let's yeah. Try to hit something here.
• 2:45:44
  Michael, can you think of one single significant argument that
• 2:45:48
  makes God not compatible with the universe?
• 2:45:52
  Okay. So, one scientific argument that
• 2:45:56
  makes God not compatible with the universe?
• 2:46:00
  Yes. You guys are gonna get mad at
• 2:46:04
  me. If I ask you about a
• 2:46:05
  compatibility, I'm gonna go with what I think compatibility is
• 2:46:09
  that. No, So you don't see that
• 2:46:14
  there's any scientific arguments against God.
• 2:46:17
  Well okay so that's a different question.
• 2:46:21
  Know this is the same question see this is what we're talking
• 2:46:25
  about about. You know, let's let's keep it.
• 2:46:28
  Let's keep the conversation. You know like that.
• 2:46:31
  No, that was the exact same question.
• 2:46:33
  One introduced compatibility and one did not and since I didn't
• 2:46:38
  know what was trying to, we're trying to ask the question.
• 2:46:40
  Simply write simple. Simple question, okay?
• 2:46:44
  What is something? Ah, ah, you know Phyllis.
• 2:46:50
  And like you said, you're in the philosophy and everything.
• 2:46:52
  Yeah. What the philosophy okay.
• 2:46:55
  What argument Would turn you away from God, that would
• 2:46:59
  actually go against God. Okay, so This is tough for me
• 2:47:07
  because if I make the distinctions I want, you guys
• 2:47:10
  aren't going to be happy. So I'm trying not to answer the
• 2:47:12
  question. I'm trying.
• 2:47:14
  I'm trying to get some realism out of you.
• 2:47:15
  I'm, I'm trying to get something out of you.
• 2:47:18
  That's actually foundational. I'm not, you know, oh, I just
• 2:47:21
  like these guys over here. So I'm just gonna jump ship.
• 2:47:23
  I want something that's real. I want something that is
• 2:47:26
  foundational, something that that we can we can work with.
• 2:47:29
  And we can talk about yeah, and I think I think that's important
• 2:47:33
  but if I okay, I think I'll say I'll say something.
• 2:47:41
  Yeah. So a few years ago I came to the
• 2:47:44
  belief that the existence of suffering and the natural world
• 2:47:48
  prior to the emergence of humans, I believe that is
• 2:47:51
  evidence against God's existence.
• 2:47:52
  That is one thing I believe how was suffering evidence against
• 2:47:58
  Um because I think it is more expected on hypotheses that are
• 2:48:03
  incompatible with God's existence, then the hypothesis
• 2:48:07
  of God's existence. okay, so so basically Okay.
• 2:48:14
  So for a Christian we would, we would have an answer for
• 2:48:16
  suffering. Um, so that, that would not be
• 2:48:19
  anything against God, if you talk to a Christian that
• 2:48:23
  actually knows their stuff. Not talking about me, maybe you
• 2:48:26
  can talk to Kenisha or, you know, God TV radio right here,
• 2:48:30
  but if you talk to a Christian that that, you know, thinks
• 2:48:35
  about these things and you know, have dealt with these kind of
• 2:48:38
  things, suffering has an answer with Christianity, it's not like
• 2:48:44
  You know. God doesn't deal with suffering.
• 2:48:46
  So what the thing is is like In Christianity, right?
• 2:48:52
  God actually took on suffering himself.
• 2:48:56
  Right. God became flesh became Jesus
• 2:48:58
  Christ, and then, which Jesus Christ was the second person in
• 2:49:02
  the Trinity. You know, we don't have to get
• 2:49:03
  to the Trinity right now, but Jesus became flesh, right?
• 2:49:08
  And then welcome us. He was made in every respect to
• 2:49:13
  just like his brother in, which is in Hebrews two 17, leave it
• 2:49:17
  in 17, And so he became flesh and he suffered for our sake.
• 2:49:24
  But now it's up to us in. Romans 8, Paul says, that we
• 2:49:29
  must suffer for Christ's sake. So suffering.
• 2:49:33
  But here's the thing though he also says in Romans 8, Paul says
• 2:49:37
  that the suffering that we had that we have now will not even
• 2:49:41
  hold a candle won't even compare at all to the Future Glory that
• 2:49:45
  we have with with Christ in the afterlife.
• 2:49:48
  And so the suffering that we have now, we we have an answer
• 2:49:52
  for that. We have an answer for that
• 2:49:54
  beautifully. Put the ways that I personally
• 2:49:58
  think that the world would be the loss of 90% of its
• 2:50:03
  suffering. If humans, actually followed the
• 2:50:06
  word of God, because Jesus wants us to love each other.
• 2:50:09
  He wants us to take care of each other.
• 2:50:11
  He wants us to feed the hungry and and give drink to the
• 2:50:15
  Thirsty and all that. If humans, agreed on this and
• 2:50:19
  work together, we would have a much more beautiful world.
• 2:50:22
  But unfortunately, there's people on all sides of the
• 2:50:26
  equation where it talked to game, but they don't do nothing.
• 2:50:30
  And then there's the people who are trying and unfortunately,
• 2:50:33
  the put themself in relief, hardcore positions.
• 2:50:37
  I'll give you an example. Like all these Ministries that
• 2:50:39
  go to other countries and trying to feed people, and then they
• 2:50:43
  got to worry about some warmongers, you know, taking
• 2:50:46
  over their trucks with food and all It kind of stuff and
• 2:50:49
  sickness is obviously, but I do believe that 90% of suffering
• 2:50:55
  would be out of the world. If humans would just simply do
• 2:50:58
  as Jesus said, sure, sure. And that that's that's part of
• 2:51:02
  my argument and I'll give it back to you Michael, but I would
• 2:51:05
  say that atheism does not have an answer for that.
• 2:51:08
  So I guess maybe I didn't say what I thought.
• 2:51:11
  I said, I thought I said that um it was suffering and the natural
• 2:51:16
  world prior to the emergence of humans.
• 2:51:19
  So I wasn't talking about human suffering.
• 2:51:21
  It seems like that's what you guys were talking about.
• 2:51:24
  I'm just talking about the creatures before, back in the
• 2:51:28
  ability to people. Yeah, that's what I was talking
• 2:51:31
  about. So I don't know why we started
• 2:51:33
  talking about like humans. Oh no, no no.
• 2:51:34
  And no suffering is suffering to Christians suffering.
• 2:51:39
  Just means like everywhere. All kinds of stuffing there is
• 2:51:44
  But I answered. Yeah I clarified though I was
• 2:51:46
  talking about a particular kind of suffering and not.
• 2:51:49
  I'm talking about all kinds of stuffing and okay holding that
• 2:51:52
  suffering. All right, well it's not clear
• 2:51:54
  to me how the answer you gave applied to the kind of suffering
• 2:51:57
  that I was talking about? What kind of suffering are we
• 2:52:00
  talking about? Are we talking about suffering
• 2:52:02
  dolphins? Or is there a specific animal
• 2:52:05
  that you're concerned about? Um, I mean they're so there are
• 2:52:09
  some creatures prior to the emergence of humans which were
• 2:52:13
  not capable of suffering that much at all, because they're
• 2:52:16
  just very small have small brains nervous system, Etc.
• 2:52:19
  So I'm talking about creatures, which are capable of
• 2:52:22
  experiencing like suffering, like actual suffering, and that
• 2:52:27
  existed, prior to humans. That's what I'm talking about.
• 2:52:29
  See, it's things like that. That make me go.
• 2:52:33
  The other way, though. Michael is, where you go towards
• 2:52:36
  atheism. I find myself asking, how did
• 2:52:39
  they get the pain receptors in the first place?
• 2:52:42
  What variables in the environment created?
• 2:52:45
  This complex system in our body, where we can feel the ouchi and
• 2:52:50
  the first place. Yeah, that's a that would be a
• 2:52:54
  different fact and then that fact might be either evidence
• 2:52:58
  for or against Christianity but what I'm talking about is the
• 2:53:02
  suffering, which would be a different fact.
• 2:53:04
  Seeing that that's that's the thing.
• 2:53:06
  Like that's the kind of boundary level that we're looking at.
• 2:53:09
  Right here, Michael Lizette your atheist, some Is is much
• 2:53:15
  different than actual atheism. Okay.
• 2:53:18
  And that, that's what we're trying to get to freedom to
• 2:53:21
  understand. Is that the atheism, the actual
• 2:53:24
  atheism, right? Would not use the word fact.
• 2:53:28
  That that's not in their vocabulary because they don't
• 2:53:31
  want moral acts. They don't want our odds,
• 2:53:34
  rather. They don't want objective
• 2:53:35
  anything. That they'll even tell you.
• 2:53:38
  There is no objective, anything. Okay.
• 2:53:41
  And so that's what we're trying to say is that it just just
• 2:53:43
  would your terminology alone with you saying.
• 2:53:46
  Oh, but this fact, and this fact in this fact, that's not what it
• 2:53:50
  is, man. That's not atheism.
• 2:53:53
  So you jumping ship and go into atheism.
• 2:53:56
  Okay? What?
• 2:53:56
  What you need to hear is a good old-fashioned.
• 2:54:01
  Christian argument. Okay.
• 2:54:02
  Okay. All right, I think that would
• 2:54:04
  help you along, okay? Unfortunately suffering is a
• 2:54:08
  consequence of Free Will and being able to have the ability
• 2:54:12
  to feel in general. If we didn't have pain receptors
• 2:54:15
  on the Consciousness, to be able to transcribe it, we wouldn't
• 2:54:19
  understand the concept of Love or emotion or what.
• 2:54:22
  It's like to be held by or spouses and all the beautiful
• 2:54:25
  things that we love in the world.
• 2:54:27
  We wouldn't know what it feels like to hold our own children
• 2:54:30
  and our hands. Unfortunately.
• 2:54:32
  In order to have that blessing, they're all comes the
• 2:54:37
  consequence. If you make bad choices, put
• 2:54:39
  yourself in bad ways then you can hurt as well, and that comes
• 2:54:44
  with the wife. Okay, so it sounded like Mitch
• 2:54:48
  wanted to talk about an argument for God meant.
• 2:54:51
  But are we still talking about suffering now?
• 2:54:53
  We're like, Oh, you keep going all over the place Michael.
• 2:54:57
  But sure. Go ahead, Mitch.
• 2:54:58
  I I mean I'm just trying to respond to what you guys are
• 2:55:01
  asking me. I'm not trying.
• 2:55:02
  Yeah, so Yeah, yeah. So, so you're talking about
• 2:55:05
  suffering, okay? Before humans?
• 2:55:07
  Yeah. Okay, so that's fine.
• 2:55:11
  But but ultimately yet again, we have an answer for that and the
• 2:55:16
  answer is, is that Right. All things happen because Of.
• 2:55:26
  you know, because again, When when you look into the what the
• 2:55:29
  Bible says, okay. Like humans were created, okay
• 2:55:34
  and animals. Pretty much in the same time.
• 2:55:37
  Okay. So what I'm what I'm saying here
• 2:55:41
  is that, you know, You would have to assume that there's
• 2:55:45
  Evolution. We we would not have assumed
• 2:55:48
  evolution. So in order for us to even talk
• 2:55:52
  about the same kind of suffering that we're even trying to talk
• 2:55:54
  about, we would have to assume evolution.
• 2:55:59
  But we don't assume Evolution, okay?
• 2:56:02
  Well, yeah, yeah, mention, I think that correct me if I'm
• 2:56:09
  wrong, but you and I, we both believe that God originally
• 2:56:12
  created, man, perfect. And because of man's Choice,
• 2:56:15
  corruption and death, and suffering was brought in the
• 2:56:18
  world because of the choices of humans, not because God did that
• 2:56:23
  to us, we chose that. That was the way we wanted to
• 2:56:26
  exist. Yeah, and actually he told us
• 2:56:30
  not. To take of that of that tree of
• 2:56:34
  that fruit. And we did it anyway because,
• 2:56:37
  you know, they were tempted into it, and they did it anyway.
• 2:56:40
  And so, we are all subject to That fall.
• 2:56:46
  And that is the great fall that Christians talk about Is in, you
• 2:56:51
  know, Genesis 3. And so that that's where
• 2:56:55
  suffering entered. The world in in the Christian
• 2:57:01
  Perspective. But if we want to talk about the
• 2:57:04
  argument of suffering, let's talk about suffering in general.
• 2:57:08
  okay, because again I mean you did ask me for like, what I
• 2:57:13
  thought was right, remember the specific wording but I thought I
• 2:57:16
  was gonna be giving what I thought was an argument or
• 2:57:19
  evidence against Christianity. Yeah.
• 2:57:21
  Well again, if you're going to present an argument, it has to
• 2:57:25
  pretty much Go on all aspects of all kinds of belief systems like
• 2:57:31
  it again. I'm not going to be like okay
• 2:57:35
  explain to me the fall and tell me how that does not work with
• 2:57:40
  atheism or whatever else, right? Like that that's not going to
• 2:57:43
  work because you have to assume the fall from my point of view
• 2:57:47
  in order for us to argue that point.
• 2:57:50
  So basically you're putting the argument Out Of Reach from us as
• 2:57:54
  Christians. And for us to have to assume
• 2:57:58
  that there is such thing as Evolution for for you to say
• 2:58:02
  that there was suffering before humans.
• 2:58:05
  See, we don't assume that. So if we're gonna, if we're
• 2:58:09
  going to have arguments be on equal ground, we must be on an
• 2:58:15
  even plateau. Because if not then we can't get
• 2:58:18
  anywhere because it's just always going to be Out Of Reach.
• 2:58:21
  And so that's that's why I'm saying so what you said was that
• 2:58:25
  they're suffering before humans. Yeah.
• 2:58:29
  But again we would have to assume that there's Evolution
• 2:58:31
  which we do not. Well I don't even know that
• 2:58:34
  pre-human suffering assumes evolution. well, yeah, because
• 2:58:39
  again, we believe that humans and animals were created at the
• 2:58:45
  same time Right. And all of suffering came from.
• 2:58:51
  One man. And that's the that's pretty
• 2:58:55
  much. The Christian thing is that
• 2:58:57
  through the fall, through Adam's corruption, all humans are
• 2:59:02
  corrupted at that point. Yeah, I need to remind everyone.
• 2:59:06
  The discussion originally started with.
• 2:59:09
  Do you have a scientific argument for Why God does not
• 2:59:13
  exist? And you basically, you're saying
• 2:59:16
  you're bringing up kind of an old argument basically, the
• 2:59:19
  question of evil or suffering and It really, how do I put this
• 2:59:27
  even? Richard Dawkins and John Lennox
• 2:59:29
  and a lot of the great. William Craig knows us that no
• 2:59:33
  matter how much misery or nasty terrible things you show us on
• 2:59:37
  Fox. It's a it doesn't any kind of
• 2:59:41
  way. Say oh, because there's bad
• 2:59:43
  things in the world that equals God doesn't exist.
• 2:59:46
  So this isn't really like a good philosophical way of trying to
• 2:59:51
  smoke out of the picture just saying And it's also and it's
• 2:59:57
  also like, you know, you if you wanted to argue about which the
• 3:00:01
  philosophical argument would be from an atheistic side would be
• 3:00:05
  that there is evil and suffering in the world generally, right?
• 3:00:09
  But again what you're doing is you're putting it Out Of Reach.
• 3:00:13
  By assuming that there's evolution.
• 3:00:16
  Yeah. I mean I thought I guess I
• 3:00:19
  thought the way the discussion started is you were like, well,
• 3:00:22
  come on there has to be more than just you want to be
• 3:00:24
  different for leaving Christianity.
• 3:00:25
  So like what was it? And then I, I said, you know,
• 3:00:29
  later on originally, it was just being different.
• 3:00:31
  And then I said, later on, I came to think that, you know,
• 3:00:34
  pre-human animal suffering was evidence against God.
• 3:00:36
  So I thought I was explaining like myself and I didn't think I
• 3:00:40
  was trying to convince you guys, likely.
• 3:00:42
  You got a YouTube channel. I do not.
• 3:00:45
  You know, you just showed up this for us.
• 3:00:49
  Yeah, I guess, great thing. I appreciate that.
• 3:00:53
  Yeah, makes me feel special. Yeah.
• 3:00:57
  Yes, me too me too. Um okay so why don't?
• 3:01:03
  Why don't we come from from, from from the other side, okay,
• 3:01:07
  let me, let me give you an argument and let's see how we
• 3:01:09
  flush this out, okay? Okay.
• 3:01:11
  All right. So the cosmological the
• 3:01:15
  cosmological argument if you ever heard of that?
• 3:01:17
  Um yeah I think it's a family of arguments. okay, so the premise
• 3:01:22
  would basically be that Nothing can come Without a Cause.
• 3:01:28
  So, there had to be an uncalled cause to create that cause.
• 3:01:34
  therefore, God exists. One second let me get a notebook
• 3:01:40
  so I can write this down. Yeah you gotta stop infinite
• 3:01:43
  regression or just goes home and home.
• 3:01:46
  And all right. Right because with with atheism,
• 3:01:50
  of course with atheism, you have nothing outside of the material
• 3:01:54
  realm. That's my, that's my personal
• 3:02:00
  belief. Is that the big bang that the
• 3:02:03
  scientists have come up with. It was a Catholic priest who
• 3:02:06
  actually came up with the big bang?
• 3:02:07
  Oh, people knew that, but to me it's a supernatural claim.
• 3:02:12
  Yeah, yeah. That, you know, when, when it
• 3:02:15
  says in Genesis one one that you know, in the beginning, God
• 3:02:18
  created the heavens in the Earth.
• 3:02:19
  But also it says that God says, let there be light and boom,
• 3:02:23
  there was light. Yeah, there's a reason for that.
• 3:02:25
  Because if there was a big bang God created that big bang, and
• 3:02:29
  it's in the scriptures itself. Let me, let me throw something
• 3:02:32
  that you mention is. I don't know if you've ever
• 3:02:34
  heard this before, this, I, this is Sur, Is some questions when I
• 3:02:39
  grow brought this up, but the very idea is that there was
• 3:02:43
  supposedly some dense Singularity, we're all mad or
• 3:02:47
  time. And space came into existence,
• 3:02:49
  right? What is the definition of
• 3:02:51
  Supernatural? It's an event or episode or
• 3:02:55
  thing that happens beyond the laws of nature.
• 3:02:58
  Now watch this if the source was outside of the universe to
• 3:03:05
  create it forth then that means there was no laws of nature.
• 3:03:08
  Because nature itself is not been in existence.
• 3:03:11
  Yet that makes a big bang claim Supernatural by definition.
• 3:03:17
  Right? Because again, nothing can that.
• 3:03:19
  That would be the cosmological argument in a nutshell.
• 3:03:22
  Well basically, yeah. Basically that.
• 3:03:24
  That's what it is, right? So something had to come.
• 3:03:28
  From something. So yeah I'm sorry.
• 3:03:32
  Go ahead Michael. Yeah I just I don't remember the
• 3:03:35
  argument is you gave it could you could you like get me the
• 3:03:38
  first second premise? I'm gonna give you.
• 3:03:40
  So this is my Layman way. I'm not I'm not a philosopher.
• 3:03:46
  Okay, but I I you know, hear the some of the greats, right?
• 3:03:50
  Well, you Lane Craig and so I don't know the premise.
• 3:03:55
  You know, laid out by heart, right?
• 3:03:57
  Like point for point but the the premise basically goes as
• 3:04:02
  follows its You know, nothing can come from or something
• 3:04:08
  cannot, come from nothing, okay? So, an uncalled cause had to
• 3:04:13
  create a Cause Therefore, that uncalled calls is God and God
• 3:04:18
  exists. Okay, so, yeah, sorry, I don't
• 3:04:22
  have a very good memory, so I got something I cannot come from
• 3:04:24
  nothing. And then what was the next thing
• 3:04:26
  you said? So, something cannot come from
• 3:04:28
  nothing. All right.
• 3:04:29
  Oh, that unkal, an uncalled calls, had to be there, to
• 3:04:34
  create that calls. An uncaused cause had to be
• 3:04:40
  there. To create the cause yes and
• 3:04:46
  therefore, God exists. Okay, the reason why it equals
• 3:04:51
  out the god existing this because First of all there's a
• 3:04:55
  supernatural element number two, you would need a source of this
• 3:04:58
  powerful enough to create the entire universe.
• 3:05:01
  Second of all, it would be outside of time.
• 3:05:04
  Therefore it would be Everlasting, an eternal
• 3:05:07
  attribute. This is the reason why.
• 3:05:10
  Well, William link Craig, I believe he actually came up with
• 3:05:13
  this as well as Peter Hitchens. The brother Christopher.
• 3:05:17
  And the only thing in human history that could Define our
• 3:05:22
  word that could Define a prime mover like that is God, there's
• 3:05:26
  no other thing. And atheist can't run to Nature
• 3:05:29
  as an explanation why his nature didn't exist when the source did
• 3:05:35
  its thing. And that's why the first premise
• 3:05:38
  has to be there because nothing or something cannot come from
• 3:05:41
  nothing. So exactly, that's military.
• 3:05:48
  Yeah, I'm interested in the first press.
• 3:05:49
  Something cannot come from nothing, right?
• 3:05:54
  So something. Okay.
• 3:05:57
  So, if that were If that were false, that would mean and
• 3:06:01
  something can come from nothing. So nothing nothing is not an
• 3:06:07
  entity. You mean the universal negation,
• 3:06:09
  right? Like not you know like basically
• 3:06:12
  if you put something in a jar or if you put nothing in a jar,
• 3:06:15
  then nothing will end up coming. If you do not put anything in a
• 3:06:20
  jar, then you're not going to get anything in a jar, right?
• 3:06:24
  Yeah, okay. Um, so, if something So
• 3:06:32
  something cannot come from nothing.
• 3:06:33
  That means that something cannot come.
• 3:06:38
  From any thing. I'm trying to wrap my mind
• 3:06:41
  around this. Yeah, it's what atheists
• 3:06:44
  referred to as spontaneous generation, which is never been
• 3:06:48
  signed, totally proven. Are you with that term, brother
• 3:06:53
  Mitch? What was it again?
• 3:06:55
  Spontaneous generation. Basically, Life, coming from
• 3:07:00
  inanimate objects like rocks. Well, yeah, objects would be
• 3:07:05
  something. Right.
• 3:07:07
  Right, so that's nothing. So again, like that would be You
• 3:07:13
  know that that so then what created that and then what
• 3:07:16
  created that and you know you just go as far back as you
• 3:07:19
  possibly can and that's where science fails.
• 3:07:22
  You Science, cannot go that far back, even if it tried, because
• 3:07:26
  science can only prove the material realm, it cannot go
• 3:07:31
  outside of the material around, even though it can observe it,
• 3:07:33
  and it can test it. You know via gravity, right?
• 3:07:38
  So you can't, you can't see gravity, you can't feel gravity,
• 3:07:41
  you can't. I mean, you can't touch gravity.
• 3:07:43
  You can't do anything with gravity.
• 3:07:45
  But gravity is true. Why?
• 3:07:46
  Because I can throw something off a cliff and it falls.
• 3:07:50
  We know that and we can test it and we can see how big a boulder
• 3:07:53
  has to be and how small one does and we can test all the, you
• 3:07:57
  know, and we can use math to, you know, try to come up with
• 3:08:00
  different things and everything like that.
• 3:08:01
  But ultimately, you cannot put gravity in a tube and slosh it
• 3:08:05
  around and try to get something out of it.
• 3:08:07
  You can't do that. So, that's something that
• 3:08:10
  gravity cannot do outside of the material Realm. so, if I were to
• 3:08:16
  come up with an example of something, That does not.
• 3:08:22
  That does not come from anything.
• 3:08:25
  That would that be an example counterexample of the premise?
• 3:08:28
  Well what have to test it? Okay so the product is a problem
• 3:08:32
  with the Mitch this would have if he were to come up with
• 3:08:37
  something like this so it would have to be something that
• 3:08:39
  naturally comes into existence and so on.
• 3:08:42
  Because if you and I and brother, Michael over here, goes
• 3:08:45
  into a lab and we do it then we're just simply going to be
• 3:08:48
  accused of being an intelligent mind that designed the
• 3:08:51
  variables. You say, so, then that ruins it
• 3:08:55
  for the atheists know. It's got to be something that
• 3:08:58
  sets there, all by itself, and nothing just happens.
• 3:09:01
  And it cannot be in. And, you know, it cannot be
• 3:09:06
  like, you know I put a put a Box, right?
• 3:09:10
  And or like, a glass box, right? I put it in there and it's
• 3:09:16
  beside a event, right? And it starts getting foggy in
• 3:09:21
  there and then you start seeing little green and black, you
• 3:09:24
  know, spots coming in through a, you know, A little bit of time,
• 3:09:31
  right? That would not be something
• 3:09:33
  coming from nothing because that would be a, that would be like
• 3:09:37
  air and stuff like that. Creating something that would be
• 3:09:41
  like, mold or something like that due to condensation, or
• 3:09:44
  something like that, you know? So, Again, there's so many
• 3:09:49
  different variables that we would have to go into but again.
• 3:09:53
  I would like to hear what you got.
• 3:09:54
  Yeah, yeah. So, um, I think that numbers are
• 3:10:00
  things that do not come from anything. um, because I think
• 3:10:03
  they exist outside of space and time and so their immaterial So
• 3:10:08
  I think that's a counterexample to this premise.
• 3:10:09
  I think there are a thing that does not come from anything.
• 3:10:13
  But that would be out of the material realm either way.
• 3:10:15
  Yeah, that's something that's outside of something that
• 3:10:19
  science can test. Yeah.
• 3:10:21
  That that's right. That's right.
• 3:10:22
  But I think it's still the premise.
• 3:10:24
  Yeah. But that, that comes from
• 3:10:26
  something that's outside of a human mind.
• 3:10:30
  What we're so two plus two equals four isn't going to ever
• 3:10:34
  create a walking monkey that sings for us either?
• 3:10:38
  Yeah. I mean no matter how many
• 3:10:40
  numbers you put into the math, you're never going to equate to
• 3:10:43
  send you through it. I know that.
• 3:10:46
  Yeah. Michael to, to go along with
• 3:10:48
  what Mitch is talking about, this me, you're probably gonna
• 3:10:52
  do the whole clarify thing. I'm just about money, aren't it?
• 3:10:55
  Is the universe for a national logical.
• 3:10:59
  Is the universe rational and logical.
• 3:11:05
  Yeah, you see, I feel back into a corner here because if I
• 3:11:09
  request clarification, you guys are not gonna like, oh I'll do
• 3:11:12
  it. I was just saying.
• 3:11:13
  That matters told me 10 bucks now let's get I do not.
• 3:11:20
  So I'll say, I'll say no. no, what can you clarify?
• 3:11:29
  Oh, I do not think the universe like in itself is rational or
• 3:11:35
  logical? Well, that's, it's strange that
• 3:11:38
  you say that, because Stephen Hawking and Lawrence Krauss.
• 3:11:40
  And Richard Dawkins says, it does, Richard Dawkins actually
• 3:11:44
  debated John Lennox who was one of the greatest mathematicians
• 3:11:48
  in the world, who happens to be a Christian and he said, yeah,
• 3:11:52
  it has to be rash home obstacle or we wouldn't be able to do
• 3:11:55
  science, science, requires consistency, and patterns, and
• 3:11:59
  observable things going on in order for you to do it.
• 3:12:02
  If the universe was in a chaotic way, you wouldn't be able to
• 3:12:07
  study, you know what? I'm talking to things are flying
• 3:12:10
  in and out and suddenly got three arms next day.
• 3:12:14
  Got four. You're never gonna be able to
• 3:12:15
  really base. You can't, you can't get two
• 3:12:20
  plus two equals four with that kind of system.
• 3:12:22
  Now here's the here's the cute one that's in your morning.
• 3:12:25
  Welcome to use this on people if you liked it but you know
• 3:12:28
  universe is rational and logical rationality and logic only works
• 3:12:32
  if there's a mind behind it as well as math.
• 3:12:35
  By the way, Michael Mmm. Yeah, there you go.
• 3:12:41
  You got the god concept laid out for you, Michael.
• 3:12:45
  Oh, okay, no more to it. Yeah.
• 3:12:49
  I mean, I I disagree with the premises but at least the
• 3:12:53
  original argument that was presented.
• 3:12:54
  I think the first premise is false, but maybe there was a
• 3:12:58
  different argument. You guys, if you want to argue
• 3:13:00
  that an empty dark and fill itself with peanut butter, I'm
• 3:13:03
  all ears. Let me get my coffee, I'll sit
• 3:13:06
  back and listen to your nap. I do like free peanut butter.
• 3:13:10
  Yeah, I I wasn't talking about jars or peanuts, I I brought up
• 3:13:14
  numbers. That was my counter example.
• 3:13:16
  Yes. But again numbers is a concept
• 3:13:20
  that was not created by us. It's a concept.
• 3:13:24
  That was given to us. Oh, I I think numbers have their
• 3:13:29
  existence apart from us. I'm a mathematical realist.
• 3:13:31
  Do you entertained it even if we entertain you on that and said
• 3:13:36
  yeah numbers of always been around and some abstract form.
• 3:13:40
  The problem is that doesn't that doesn't tell us that about
• 3:13:45
  nothing. We're talking about actual
• 3:13:47
  nothing and then something coming into existence. yeah, so
• 3:13:53
  I I'm reading the first premise in a particular way when I, when
• 3:13:58
  I hear something cannot come from nothing, Something.
• 3:14:02
  When you say come from nothing, that means not to me.
• 3:14:04
  That means like not come from anything.
• 3:14:07
  Yeah, there's nothing that exists.
• 3:14:09
  There's no elements, no properties.
• 3:14:11
  And Michael Meads didn't come up with this stuff.
• 3:14:14
  It's your atheist. Scientists like Stephen Hawking
• 3:14:17
  Lawrence Krauss who claims that the Universe just magically like
• 3:14:22
  David Copperfield created itself.
• 3:14:25
  Yeah, I'm I'm free to disagree with them.
• 3:14:29
  Well, and that's, that's and that that's, that's the that's
• 3:14:33
  the that's the whole point of what we're trying to get to
• 3:14:35
  Michael, is that you disagree with both sides so you're not,
• 3:14:38
  you couldn't necessarily be an atheist.
• 3:14:40
  You would be one of your own. Oh, I mean, I think there's a
• 3:14:45
  broad variety of atheists with different beliefs so long as
• 3:14:48
  they were rejected, the god proposition, I think they can
• 3:14:50
  disagree and all kinds of things.
• 3:14:52
  So back to your worldview, how do you think things happen?
• 3:14:55
  Then let's put God on the back burner and go with the math from
• 3:15:00
  nothing stuff. Now what what do we got work
• 3:15:03
  with us? So sorry.
• 3:15:05
  Could you rephrase the question? Oh my goodness.
• 3:15:08
  I met you wouldn't do this. I'm tired.
• 3:15:11
  I'm just Well, I'm just saying, like, Okay, the first premise
• 3:15:15
  would have to be followed by the second premise.
• 3:15:17
  Okay. And so An uncalled calls would
• 3:15:22
  have to be the cause of something else.
• 3:15:25
  And so that would be the second premise.
• 3:15:27
  So the first premise would be followed by the second premise.
• 3:15:31
  Therefore so two plus two equals four.
• 3:15:34
  So those two things equals God. So, you would have to take the
• 3:15:41
  holy equation. Like you couldn't just look at
• 3:15:44
  it one point at a time. You would have to to take the
• 3:15:47
  whole thing in a bunch. Oh, you want me to?
• 3:15:50
  So I'm looking at the whole argument like the validity.
• 3:15:53
  Is that what you mean? Yeah, yeah.
• 3:15:55
  Like, you know, again if nothing or if something cannot come from
• 3:16:00
  nothing, just watch logical. But if that's the case, then, an
• 3:16:06
  uncalled calls would have to calls that thing.
• 3:16:09
  To come into into being to come. You know, into existence and
• 3:16:14
  therefore, that, that uncalled calls would have to be God.
• 3:16:20
  Yeah, I mean I see the argument as a whole I mean I understand
• 3:16:23
  it I mean I do reject the first premise.
• 3:16:26
  Maybe I reject other things as well but yeah that's that's the
• 3:16:30
  first thing I'm going to say so what?
• 3:16:31
  So what it is a little weird. Wait sorry if I can just say
• 3:16:35
  one, I go ahead and I'm an atheist too but it is does sound
• 3:16:39
  a little weird because I I think if I am starting an argument
• 3:16:43
  with that like, well numbers can exist in the supports a natural
• 3:16:46
  world view. What is like, an actual, like
• 3:16:49
  what is a particular like the number four, like when it's
• 3:16:51
  outside of space-time, right? Like I don't I don't know how I
• 3:16:57
  can say that while there's not actually a particular floor for
• 3:17:00
  or yeah, you know there's like a universal for something and then
• 3:17:07
  this also this thing this number doesn't have.
• 3:17:11
  I mean properties, that numbers have like It's it's it sounds
• 3:17:18
  like the sort of same sort of supposition that to some extent.
• 3:17:23
  We're going, we're going with the assertions of and Mitzi.
• 3:17:28
  You know that I'm not pulling anybody's leg here.
• 3:17:30
  I actually just for these type of topics, I actually uploaded a
• 3:17:36
  couple dozen videos of atheist. Scientists who are literally
• 3:17:40
  saying it all came from nothing. So I got Stephen Hawking over
• 3:17:44
  there, I got Lawrence Krauss, I got all the goodies and all that
• 3:17:47
  kind of stuff that way people don't think I'm playing with
• 3:17:50
  them. Whenever I say this, it's not
• 3:17:52
  something I subscribe to but I like to have it whenever I'm in
• 3:17:56
  the discussion with folks who will try to clean things and not
• 3:18:00
  be scientists themselves, if that makes sense.
• 3:18:03
  Sure. So, go ahead, Michael, if you
• 3:18:07
  have anything. Oh, yeah.
• 3:18:09
  Um, I think duck duck was saying something about Universal's.
• 3:18:13
  I'm not quite sure duck. Could you rephrase the question?
• 3:18:16
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 3:18:18
  So that that is the question, you know, you know, normally I
• 3:18:21
  would disagree with Mitch we've been on Canisius panel together
• 3:18:24
  but, you know, like, in the, in the case, where, you know, I say
• 3:18:29
  that there's a particular number for if you're trying to explain
• 3:18:32
  what a number four is outside of space-time.
• 3:18:34
  It just to me it doesn't make sense that well now I get the
• 3:18:38
  right to say well there's no particular God but I also don't
• 3:18:42
  have to talk about how I can talk about a particular or
• 3:18:44
  Universal for right? I you know there's a math
• 3:18:48
  equation outside of space-time. Well what does that math
• 3:18:51
  equation need to say or do in like to have an identity to not
• 3:18:55
  trying to be overly philosophical?
• 3:18:57
  But if I were to say something like well that number four is
• 3:19:01
  like the the essential sort of characteristic for it or
• 3:19:04
  something is that it is You know, it relates to the number
• 3:19:10
  one or the number five in some way, right?
• 3:19:12
  There's some base for it or the successor really can be
• 3:19:15
  multiplied. Yeah, yeah, you know, to me
• 3:19:17
  those are the same things as saying, well now we can't
• 3:19:20
  understand what a 4 is essentially.
• 3:19:22
  And so we're trying to use different the same sort of logic
• 3:19:26
  in my view, like the same exact Logic for for saying, there's no
• 3:19:31
  God as we're, we'd have to use for our numbers, right?
• 3:19:34
  There's not like a, that's just the way I see it.
• 3:19:37
  There's, there's no infinite regress there.
• 3:19:39
  I think I've actually had a chance to talk to you a while
• 3:19:42
  back. I think you hung out with
• 3:19:44
  brother Maverick I don't know if you recall that he'll talk to
• 3:19:48
  you for a little bit, good conversation, what we're trying
• 3:19:51
  to establish here is we're trying to figure out Michael's
• 3:19:54
  worldview and every time we asked him a question, he goes
• 3:19:58
  into this whole clarified definition.
• 3:20:00
  And I think Mitch and I have gotten to the point where we
• 3:20:03
  believe that he's extremely intelligent and fully
• 3:20:06
  understands where we're coming from on our questions.
• 3:20:09
  But for some reason we keep going back and back and back.
• 3:20:13
  Michael can you please explain your world view?
• 3:20:15
  Okay, so when we first talked about it, you know, I asked what
• 3:20:20
  a worldview was and we talked about morals, and that's what it
• 3:20:24
  seemed like we were saying a worldview was and so I
• 3:20:27
  explained, you know, I'm a moral realist, and I explained how I
• 3:20:30
  gained all knowledge of moral facts.
• 3:20:31
  They're intuitions. I think moral properties are
• 3:20:33
  distinct from natural properties.
• 3:20:35
  So, if we're going with what we said originally, and that would
• 3:20:38
  be it if he means something. Different, and I got to know.
• 3:20:41
  Well, I also asked you if you, because we were talking about,
• 3:20:45
  you were a former Christian and then you left, and then you said
• 3:20:49
  something about, I wanted to be a better person and all this
• 3:20:52
  stuff, so I left but then I grew up and I realized you know, I'm
• 3:20:56
  better than that, I'm going to change kind of thing, then we
• 3:21:00
  got into. What was it a?
• 3:21:01
  Do you have a scientific argument for why it is?
• 3:21:05
  You don't believe God is compatible for the universe.
• 3:21:09
  And then you got in the math about numbers floating around in
• 3:21:13
  space. Well, yeah, because the math
• 3:21:15
  part was in response to the argument that Mitch gave And
• 3:21:19
  yeah, I don't. But again like I would even say
• 3:21:22
  that, you know what, what we're advocating for, is something
• 3:21:25
  that's outside of time and space.
• 3:21:28
  So what is time? Well, time would be included
• 3:21:30
  with the math, right? Because you, you can't count
• 3:21:34
  with that numbers. You can't tell time without
• 3:21:36
  numbers. So what I'm saying, here is like
• 3:21:37
  numbers time and everything else.
• 3:21:40
  Had to come from somewhere. Yeah, I disagree that I disagree
• 3:21:45
  with that. Okay, so that's the argument.
• 3:21:49
  Well, okay, so I think numbers, I think maybe what was getting
• 3:21:54
  at is the, you know, we see four things, we see, like four
• 3:21:57
  computers, we see four tables for shares, right?
• 3:22:00
  So, I think those are all instances of the number four,
• 3:22:04
  and then, I think there's has to be something, unifying them,
• 3:22:07
  something that they have in common, that would be what I
• 3:22:10
  would call their Essence. And then, but we're talking
• 3:22:12
  about outside of all that outside of the matter outside of
• 3:22:15
  time, out of all that, what you don't have four chairs?
• 3:22:19
  You know, have four computers. You you got the more that
• 3:22:24
  unifies them outside of time and outside of space, that's what I
• 3:22:28
  think. Okay.
• 3:22:34
  Anybody else got anything to add to that?
• 3:22:36
  Sure. I'd like to know what duck and
• 3:22:39
  some of the other people's worldviews are I'm kind of when
• 3:22:42
  I had a conversation with duck, he's very fluent and he's able
• 3:22:46
  to really really progress in conversations.
• 3:22:49
  I enjoyed talking to him Michael.
• 3:22:51
  I'm not trying to be mean but this whole you know whatever it
• 3:22:54
  is you're going at stuff. I think that's probably meant
• 3:22:57
  for something else. It's not kind of conversation.
• 3:23:00
  We're trying to have but go ahead.
• 3:23:03
  Yeah, so I'm an old school physicalist.
• 3:23:06
  I've been accused of being both esoteric, as well as, you know,
• 3:23:11
  a little ephemeral, you know, kind of being too.
• 3:23:14
  Roundabout, you know what? I think, you know what I?
• 3:23:17
  Yeah. So what, I think that actually
• 3:23:19
  mean is that when I look at a natural interpretation of the
• 3:23:23
  world probably very similar in most ways to Michael, but I
• 3:23:27
  actually go to start flipping over the things that I can
• 3:23:30
  empirically study and observe science continues to produce new
• 3:23:34
  results, New outcomes, you know, the important stuff, you know,
• 3:23:38
  always comes down the pipeline and its seams, right?
• 3:23:40
  And so, you know, one explanation for that is that is
• 3:23:45
  that there is a God that is instilling order, the other, the
• 3:23:50
  other explanation as well. Just what's science is, is it is
• 3:23:53
  more or less the study of order and it's even seeking to extend
• 3:23:56
  to be the study of not order. Um right, you know science tries
• 3:24:02
  to understand when we don't have answers in the universe that
• 3:24:05
  make sense to us. And so my overall world view is
• 3:24:09
  that like most of my day-to-day knowledge stuff like that.
• 3:24:12
  Yeah. Some of it might be subjective
• 3:24:15
  but a lot of it I think is based on on science which is building
• 3:24:18
  towards truth. Most say that's good enough for
• 3:24:22
  truth, right? If you say you get in a car this
• 3:24:24
  is an example. If you say, you know, I got in
• 3:24:26
  my car, I drove to Starbucks today and got Starbucks.
• 3:24:29
  Well, if I say I know how a car works or a mechanic says, I know
• 3:24:33
  how a Car Works. Um, maybe in the big Cosmic
• 3:24:36
  scheme of things that's like a subjective truth but I to me I
• 3:24:39
  would Grant I would always say that that's just a truth.
• 3:24:42
  You can know how a car works and so I I don't often find myself
• 3:24:47
  in like these infinite regress arguments which I like I'm
• 3:24:50
  comfortable with that and it's also provides like I think a
• 3:24:55
  Bastion I don't do a lot of atheism stuff on my channel but
• 3:24:59
  you know, but when I do get into these types of conversations it
• 3:25:04
  comes up on Reddit comes up on Discord.
• 3:25:05
  I usually try to sort of explain, what a natural world
• 3:25:10
  view. Actually looks like These here
• 3:25:13
  yourself duck is someone who has your own concept of Faith going
• 3:25:18
  on here because of the statement that you made, you said science
• 3:25:22
  is always trying to find answers in the future.
• 3:25:24
  It's going to end up. It's as if you you just have
• 3:25:28
  this this intuition that you're going to get some answers and
• 3:25:33
  the future, but you don't know that for sure.
• 3:25:35
  So there's some amount of Fate there.
• 3:25:39
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 3:25:40
  You know. Um, so that that's a really good
• 3:25:43
  question, right? That is a good question and a
• 3:25:46
  mature question. Um, the best way I can answer
• 3:25:49
  that is that, you know, to me narrative, just personally
• 3:25:53
  narratives have always been really important to me.
• 3:25:56
  And to me, I don't think a narrative is only like, you
• 3:26:00
  know, when I was Catholic, the gospel is a, it's a perfect
• 3:26:03
  narrative, right? That's what the gospel is.
• 3:26:05
  I also think a narrative is saying that well, you know,
• 3:26:09
  Sometime sometime before 4.5 billion years ago, a stark
• 3:26:15
  exploded and it made enough iron that.
• 3:26:18
  We have a molten metal chord of the earth and over time elements
• 3:26:22
  naturally settled based on density.
• 3:26:24
  And we have a planet Um to me that is an answer.
• 3:26:29
  It's a complete answer. It may not make sense.
• 3:26:31
  Why we have atoms and complexity from that answer?
• 3:26:35
  But I can know how the Earth got here.
• 3:26:38
  I'm not, I don't think I will hear a better story.
• 3:26:41
  Even if someone tries right, you can like in You know, you can
• 3:26:46
  try as much as much as you want, right?
• 3:26:48
  I know, I know it sounds sort of funny to say, well, You know,
• 3:26:52
  like well why couldn't I just say that, you know, like Orden
• 3:26:55
  Ramsey, you know, sort of delivered a freaking um, you
• 3:26:59
  know, delivering my peanut butter and jelly sandwiches
• 3:27:01
  isn't that the same thing? And I really don't think those
• 3:27:04
  two things are like analogous at all like in, in my opinion.
• 3:27:08
  Um, You know, having a story that I'm happy with is very
• 3:27:13
  important for me. Well you the origin of
• 3:27:17
  Humanity's important to you, right?
• 3:27:19
  You do want to know where you come from.
• 3:27:24
  Yeah, but if, so, if I'm made of particles, right?
• 3:27:27
  If I made a particles, I would be curious about how a particle
• 3:27:30
  works if I made of jeans. And I evolved from, you know,
• 3:27:35
  very primate like ancestors, while primates were evolving, I
• 3:27:41
  would care about both those stories as well.
• 3:27:42
  I don't think that prize open the sort of pan, what I call a
• 3:27:46
  Pandora's Box for God. I don't think there's some like
• 3:27:49
  deeply hidden truth that I just can't accept.
• 3:27:52
  What is your thoughts on this at?
• 3:27:55
  I don't know if you've heard of this Fermi paradox.
• 3:28:01
  Go ahead. Well, the Fermi Paradox is
• 3:28:04
  basically defined as here we have Earth.
• 3:28:07
  We have life sentence and all this, but a lot of scientists
• 3:28:11
  say question, why isn't it that we're not seeing a biogenesis
• 3:28:15
  all over different planets? Why aren't we seeing some
• 3:28:17
  evolutionary process? At least some sentient smokes.
• 3:28:21
  Something. It's, it's almost as if we're
• 3:28:24
  absolutely alone at this point and I know some people argue
• 3:28:28
  well maybe there's life forms way out there and they just have
• 3:28:31
  them build the right Enterprise or Voyager yet to build a warp
• 3:28:34
  to us kind of thing. But what would you know?
• 3:28:38
  I wish there was. I'd love me some start Trek
• 3:28:42
  generation. But hey, you know what would be
• 3:28:44
  your conclusion, duck. I I'm serious when I say this I
• 3:28:47
  rarely hear. I either side be able to go get
• 3:28:51
  explanation for me Paradox. Hold on real quick.
• 3:28:55
  I'll be listening. My son just came in. um, Yeah,
• 3:29:01
  so the Fermi paradox. Yeah, you know, I I so as an
• 3:29:08
  just to zoom out to the macro argument about what arguments
• 3:29:11
  for God are actually about. So like, you know, we could talk
• 3:29:13
  about incredulity, you know. I can't believe that we're on
• 3:29:16
  earth, right? I can't believe we're on Earth,
• 3:29:18
  bro. It seems.
• 3:29:19
  It seems so unlikely. Um, and, How people with
• 3:29:25
  atheistic or naturalistic World Views?
• 3:29:27
  Understand this question is. Well, you know, fundamentally
• 3:29:33
  you still have to contextualize why math is about phenomenal
• 3:29:37
  reality. So why why does math apply to
• 3:29:41
  something like calculating? You know, like, I could am I
• 3:29:45
  capable of guesstimating? How many supernovas produce the
• 3:29:49
  iron in the earth based on astrophysics?
• 3:29:51
  Based on cosmology? You know, if I know about what
• 3:29:57
  the universe was like at that time, that's a very practical
• 3:30:00
  applied thing, you might not consider that the same type of
• 3:30:02
  Truth is God. for for fermi's Paradox, you know, I would say
• 3:30:09
  you know its just as likely From a Bayesian perspective that you
• 3:30:15
  know it's just incoherent that quite the formulation of Fermi
• 3:30:19
  is incoherent. It's maybe just as likely that
• 3:30:22
  you know the solutions already been found, you know there is
• 3:30:25
  you know whatever they call it you know.
• 3:30:27
  There's like the there is like a cliff or you know there's you
• 3:30:31
  know all species end up like Wharf from Star Trek or
• 3:30:34
  something like this. You know you have these almost
• 3:30:36
  like Warrior civilizations that exists and so we don't detect
• 3:30:40
  each other. Or we don't make it, we don't
• 3:30:44
  make it. I'm sure there's more answers
• 3:30:47
  and it would probably be great if we could actually inform our
• 3:30:49
  discussions with what life can possibly look like why we Define
• 3:30:54
  life, the way we do. But I don't I see that as a god
• 3:30:59
  of the gaps argument. If I'm going to use that for
• 3:31:01
  God, we don't know and so therefore you know, we got to
• 3:31:04
  work God into it. That's god of the gaps.
• 3:31:07
  Okay. All right.
• 3:31:08
  So but but but again, like, even if we don't use God, that still,
• 3:31:13
  like, we're just kind of fumbling around at that point,
• 3:31:15
  right? Like that.
• 3:31:17
  That's not that's not what the That's not why we throw God in
• 3:31:24
  there. There's more to it than that but
• 3:31:26
  and I know I know, you know that I know, that's not what you're
• 3:31:29
  saying, but but when I'm saying here is like, okay, if we don't
• 3:31:33
  know, therefore we go after this one thing that we supposedly
• 3:31:39
  cannot trust or we cannot, you know, actually prove or anything
• 3:31:44
  like that, right? So, um, yeah we we just came up
• 3:31:48
  with this, you know? Invisible thing that we love and
• 3:31:53
  adore and then there it came. You know, I mean like but yeah.
• 3:31:58
  it's like, We would have to, I think we would have to know.
• 3:32:04
  We would have to basically form our belief systems, and
• 3:32:08
  everything like that on stuff that we do know.
• 3:32:12
  Rather than the things that we don't and that's why we would
• 3:32:16
  come to the god, conclusion. So we agree about that, but we
• 3:32:20
  have we used different. We used different suppositions,
• 3:32:23
  right? I think they're right enough
• 3:32:24
  evidence that I can cite in net. You know, if you want to call it
• 3:32:28
  natural philosophy, there's enough evidence there because
• 3:32:33
  we've been doing that for two to three hundred years, right?
• 3:32:36
  It's what we actually do so on. So being able to study, what the
• 3:32:41
  natural world is like and sort of maintain that state of mind,
• 3:32:45
  that sort of framework, I think to me is sufficient, right?
• 3:32:48
  Um, I don't, you know, I, I still I don't totally understand
• 3:32:53
  personally, how You know, if you say, well, you know, we form
• 3:32:58
  beliefs on stuff that we do know like I can respect it as a
• 3:33:02
  spiritual tradition, I can't respect it as a, you know, I I
• 3:33:06
  don't really see the Merit in it as in, you know.
• 3:33:11
  An empirical argument. I don't see how we're just
• 3:33:13
  planting our empirical methodology with with God at
• 3:33:17
  some point. I'm very happy to be an iceberg
• 3:33:22
  about that stuff too. Right?
• 3:33:23
  Like, you know, I don't mean to be rude, but I am.
• 3:33:25
  I am in iceberg about that stuff.
• 3:33:29
  Okay, that's fine. Um, but but like you know, when
• 3:33:34
  we come to the um like you said that you're you're comfortable
• 3:33:38
  with going into the the Eternal regression argument.
• 3:33:44
  With, um, you say that you're comfortable, you don't
• 3:33:47
  necessarily go to that, but you would be comfortable to go to
• 3:33:50
  that. Yeah.
• 3:33:51
  Can talk about I can talk about why it's stupid.
• 3:33:54
  I can't talk about why I can talk about.
• 3:33:58
  Why I mean like if someone presents their version of it, I
• 3:34:02
  can talk about why I don't hold that same belief.
• 3:34:05
  Duck. So why would it be stupid to?
• 3:34:07
  Why would it be stupid to have this argument?
• 3:34:10
  And and to Play around with a little bit.
• 3:34:15
  Because it's not important, right?
• 3:34:17
  If I if I want to play around and I don't have a foundation in
• 3:34:20
  My Philosophy like that's cool play around but you know all so
• 3:34:24
  like go on. Like go on Twitter.
• 3:34:26
  Go on X right. There are go on Reddit.
• 3:34:29
  There are you'll find 10,000 other people posting their Crazy
• 3:34:34
  theories of everything. Do you know what better than
• 3:34:36
  that? What's better than that is?
• 3:34:38
  Yeah, you can be a Protestant in the US and you can know that the
• 3:34:41
  Catholic church has been adapting towards science for the
• 3:34:45
  last. 100 200 years, we can disagree about everything, but
• 3:34:48
  you can know that Christianity has better scientific views than
• 3:34:51
  these Yahoo's on the internet who just say whatever comes to
• 3:34:54
  their mind. That doesn't make any sense to
• 3:34:57
  me. Right?
• 3:34:57
  And so, you know what actually turns out is that like, you
• 3:35:01
  know, if we get into this infinite, regress argument, I
• 3:35:04
  can explain the science that I do know that I do understand.
• 3:35:08
  I can explain the philosophical theory that I know that I
• 3:35:10
  understand. You know, and you know, and I
• 3:35:16
  think that's actually what the end of that is.
• 3:35:17
  I don't think that there is a sort of like a anything
• 3:35:20
  consequential about discussing it.
• 3:35:23
  I don't like explain something down or whatever but you know,
• 3:35:26
  that's what I would. I would say this though because
• 3:35:30
  you did bring up that there was a star that exploded and here
• 3:35:35
  come the universe slowly but surely right.
• 3:35:38
  And so um, But that's not been proven.
• 3:35:46
  My son. So that's not something that you
• 3:35:49
  can that, you know, is true. Yeah, but I do think we can.
• 3:35:54
  We can we can carbon dates stuff on Earth.
• 3:35:56
  I don't, I don't know. I'm not, I could I'm sure it
• 3:36:00
  could do some Google Foo on it, but just suggesting, you know, I
• 3:36:04
  I think that's a good point, you know.
• 3:36:06
  This is what I think. Mitch the god of the gaps
• 3:36:08
  actually is and I appreciate, you know, you bringing that up.
• 3:36:12
  But um, the god of the gaps is specifically saying, well you
• 3:36:15
  don't know something. You don't know.
• 3:36:16
  A fact, you don't know a theory, you don't have an explanation
• 3:36:19
  and so therefore God, right? And I hope you can see from my
• 3:36:23
  perspective, why that's problematic, if I'm not talking
• 3:36:26
  about a faith based belief, right?
• 3:36:28
  And, and I would agree with you too extent, that is problematic.
• 3:36:31
  However, If, if you really want to get to do you believe in
• 3:36:35
  objective truth? um, He believed we know what
• 3:36:42
  truth is guys, just real quick. I I have returned, I wanted to
• 3:36:46
  apologize the duck as well as Mitch my my daughter.
• 3:36:50
  She just turned 23 and I was pulled in there to do some
• 3:36:54
  birthday cake and all that happy birthday now that she's blown up
• 3:36:58
  the candles and got her cake. She says all right then you go
• 3:37:02
  back down around so that's how that works.
• 3:37:05
  Your girl's gonna end up getting older and talked to me like
• 3:37:08
  that, too. It's all love.
• 3:37:10
  Sure, sure, that's fine. But I did hear I did hear some
• 3:37:14
  of which said about Fermi Paradox and I like the way he
• 3:37:17
  answered, it's a lot better and more articulate than what I've
• 3:37:19
  heard from other folks. And so yeah, chat rooms, thank
• 3:37:22
  you for giving that yeah, got TV.
• 3:37:25
  It, I would just say to you, as well.
• 3:37:26
  You and both you and Mitch, you know, I didn't mean to turn
• 3:37:30
  someone off from being curious or exploring even the Theology
• 3:37:33
  of that. Um, just because I'm saying it's
• 3:37:36
  a small thing, it's and I don't see how this like
• 3:37:39
  mechanistically proves my point. I, you know.
• 3:37:44
  So what I would say is that like there is still a case to be made
• 3:37:48
  that we have to reconcile for me, Paradox.
• 3:37:50
  I just don't endorse it and it's also possible that I haven't
• 3:37:54
  explored it well enough yet. That's all of those things.
• 3:37:58
  Both of those things could be true.
• 3:38:00
  That's fair enough for me. As far as the god, things goes
• 3:38:04
  really at the end of the day. The only thing I desire and the
• 3:38:08
  whole deal is for people just to be open-minded.
• 3:38:10
  Leave, open them. The idea for possibilities and
• 3:38:15
  that's it. Yeah.
• 3:38:16
  Yeah. So yeah and not being reflective
• 3:38:19
  or reactive. That's my big thing is when we
• 3:38:21
  come together for a panel or a discussion you know, as an
• 3:38:26
  atheist you know, because I don't do this stuff on my
• 3:38:28
  channel ever. I like almost never when you And
• 3:38:31
  so when I do see, like a space to actually share my beliefs or
• 3:38:34
  something, um, you know, if whether you want to say they're
• 3:38:38
  Justified or they're not, that's fine, that's good for me
• 3:38:41
  actually as it turns out. And so, you know, if I were to
• 3:38:44
  say something like double check my understanding and say like
• 3:38:47
  well, You know, um, you know, was I right to disagree with
• 3:38:51
  Michael earlier? Was I write to just disregard
• 3:38:53
  the Fermi Paradox. I don't think there's a better
• 3:38:55
  form for us to do this than here.
• 3:38:59
  Okay. So what?
• 3:39:01
  Okay, well thank you for that. Um, fair enough.
• 3:39:05
  So I'm not gonna push you anymore on it.
• 3:39:07
  Um, but what I, what I would say just real quick and this is
• 3:39:11
  where I come from. Um, I wouldn't say that.
• 3:39:14
  It's the, what did you say? It was the the god Gap, or what
• 3:39:18
  was it? You said, yeah.
• 3:39:19
  The god of the gaps fallacy is the most.
• 3:39:21
  Okay. It's one of one of many of the
• 3:39:24
  most, you know It's one of the ones.
• 3:39:27
  I'm familiar with where it basically says, yeah.
• 3:39:29
  God explains gaps in our understanding.
• 3:39:31
  They don't actually explain God. So you can look at all and be.
• 3:39:35
  Yeah. Yes.
• 3:39:36
  Right. Right.
• 3:39:36
  Okay, probably one of the most overused policies by atheists.
• 3:39:42
  Okay, so so here's the thing, right?
• 3:39:44
  So what what I would say is that, you know, It's like when
• 3:39:49
  you look at it in a philosophical way, okay?
• 3:39:51
  And again, we don't have to push on this.
• 3:39:54
  I'm just giving what I think of it.
• 3:39:56
  The reason that it's not that it's because like okay if you're
• 3:40:01
  trying to look into if you're trying to get objective truth,
• 3:40:05
  right? And you say it's a little, it's
• 3:40:07
  a little thing and that's fine. Um, but what I say is that it's
• 3:40:11
  a pretty big thing, right? And in order to get to our
• 3:40:14
  Origins story because I want to know exactly where I come from.
• 3:40:19
  And so what what we look into is like okay well we can test up to
• 3:40:23
  a certain point with science, okay?
• 3:40:25
  We can get to a certain point with science. but again, like
• 3:40:30
  We, we can't. I would say that you know, if we
• 3:40:35
  look at the premise that I was giving earlier that, nothing,
• 3:40:37
  nothing cannot come from nothing.
• 3:40:39
  You had to be an uncalled calls, that would be something that I
• 3:40:43
  would a firm to. And so if if that was ever a
• 3:40:47
  thought in my mind as an atheist or as anybody that is just
• 3:40:50
  scientific or material only right?
• 3:40:55
  I would probably have to you know question that I would have
• 3:40:59
  to battle with that and be like, okay, um, What if there is some
• 3:41:04
  outside of that can I offer? Can I offer one more?
• 3:41:06
  I offer? This was an argument.
• 3:41:08
  I made in a debate yesterday and this is why I don't I don't buy
• 3:41:12
  that because if I this is my, my favorite orange highlighter, my
• 3:41:15
  camera filter is making it weird.
• 3:41:17
  But yes, it's a Sharpie on there.
• 3:41:19
  Yes. So, you know, if I have
• 3:41:23
  knowledge about this highlighter, um, you know, it's
• 3:41:26
  sufficient to explain the cause the highlighter that we know
• 3:41:29
  that someone Mets petroleum into petroleum derivatives, which
• 3:41:33
  make up plastic, it's sufficient to know that humans know how to
• 3:41:36
  do that. It's sufficient to know that
• 3:41:37
  there is oil on Earth. So there's raw Patrol wrote oil,
• 3:41:42
  which we crude, which we can turn into this.
• 3:41:44
  It's efficient to know that we've been making actually like
• 3:41:48
  fairly high quality ink since the time of the Egyptians, which
• 3:41:52
  is one we started using metals to create that ink.
• 3:41:54
  Also an interesting fact. And so, So if I finding the
• 3:42:01
  cause of this, I can just say those things and I can say well
• 3:42:04
  I you know, someone set up a manufacturing plant to do all
• 3:42:07
  these things and create this, this pain someone, you know, in
• 3:42:13
  the same way, if I see a tree, well obviously there is
• 3:42:15
  germination of a seed that seed sprouted there was sufficient
• 3:42:19
  water and a tree grew. And we know inside of that tree
• 3:42:22
  is the same genes that were in the seed more or less the same
• 3:42:25
  exact genes functioning the same exact way and so if I say well
• 3:42:29
  I'm going to have to do an infinite regress on things,
• 3:42:32
  that's not necessarily true. If I say I have the same type of
• 3:42:34
  knowledge about a particle or about a hamiltonian or wave
• 3:42:37
  function or you know I generally except there's a more
• 3:42:41
  fundamental object in physics like like Michael's talking
• 3:42:44
  about idealism I would talk about something on a base layer
• 3:42:47
  we would fight and argue mercilessly about that on.
• 3:42:51
  I don't think I ever hit an infinite regress.
• 3:42:54
  I think I can put this in a box and this is And without
• 3:42:59
  trolling, this is always going to be in the box if it fits, it
• 3:43:01
  fits and it sits in the box and it stays there.
• 3:43:05
  We duck why? I understand what you're getting
• 3:43:08
  that duck. And I appreciate your point on
• 3:43:10
  that you've come to a point where there's things around you
• 3:43:14
  that you've become content with and all this.
• 3:43:16
  But the the issue for me because I respect science and all that,
• 3:43:20
  there is a specific field that I argue about and all that.
• 3:43:24
  But the the issue for me is that it is scientifically proven an
• 3:43:30
  objective fact that life Produces life and it's always
• 3:43:35
  been this way. There's never been an incident
• 3:43:38
  where why suddenly comes out of nowhere or nothing.
• 3:43:42
  I mean, people could say amino acids some juices and some water
• 3:43:46
  flowed it around a rock and some neat things.
• 3:43:49
  But this doesn't explain why it is this thing.
• 3:43:52
  Continued to transform, get bigger, grow, this complex,
• 3:43:56
  anatomy and pain receptors, and all this.
• 3:43:58
  These kind of things, I think that if we want to get better in
• 3:44:03
  science and make more cool pins, like, you know, we need to
• 3:44:06
  understand these things. Yeah, I would just say, where,
• 3:44:10
  where is the, the orange highlighter.
• 3:44:13
  Where's the orange highlighter in when life started?
• 3:44:16
  We're Not Gonna, we may not ever have empirical evidence.
• 3:44:20
  To that we may computationally supposed what that is or was
• 3:44:24
  like, we may reproduce other ways life could have come about
• 3:44:28
  in Laboratories. I I think those are all fine
• 3:44:32
  definitions. We may even revise what it means
• 3:44:34
  to have life in the first place, right?
• 3:44:36
  Like, you know, this is the the hot new topic in science where
• 3:44:39
  you know, they would look at me. Like I was crazy.
• 3:44:42
  They would say, oh duck, duck. You you know, you can't come at
• 3:44:46
  me with all this stuff and say that this is all you have, you
• 3:44:49
  gotta, you got to come to The Godfather with more and they
• 3:44:52
  would what they would do is they'd pull up on their screen,
• 3:44:54
  they would pull up a models from supercomputers and say, well
• 3:44:57
  life is actually only one of the many changes that was happening
• 3:45:02
  on Earth. It may be important and it may
• 3:45:04
  appear dominant in many ways. But when you look at the actual
• 3:45:07
  information, this is different. Now this is pseudoscience.
• 3:45:11
  This is like science fiction right now.
• 3:45:13
  It's perhaps a little bit of both but the point is is I don't
• 3:45:17
  have to me duck. Personally because this is like
• 3:45:21
  a big part of what I do. It's what I think about when I
• 3:45:24
  go on my runs every day You know, I don't have to accept
• 3:45:29
  that life comes from life. Means anything at all or it ever
• 3:45:33
  will? If it fits his, if it fits, it
• 3:45:36
  fits still. And that's always going to be
• 3:45:38
  the case unless someone else, something better to say, right?
• 3:45:42
  I get you and I appreciate your perspective, I understand from
• 3:45:46
  your personal view, your content with no one what, you know, at
• 3:45:50
  the time and your patient, not to wait for more information
• 3:45:53
  come along and I too have the same hopes as you not just about
• 3:45:58
  the concept of God. But I hope that science
• 3:46:01
  continues to progress but then when I reflect and I look back
• 3:46:05
  on it, I say why do we even have the ability to do science in the
• 3:46:09
  first place? Where does this imagination in
• 3:46:12
  this creativity? And this ambition, to even want
• 3:46:15
  to do these things? So I can say something more fun.
• 3:46:18
  I don't mean to cut you off, but I can say more fundamental is
• 3:46:22
  first. It's not actually true that I'm
• 3:46:24
  comfortable or content with anything.
• 3:46:25
  In fact, in fact, I think science itself has Peaks and
• 3:46:29
  valleys the very active. Exploring has Peaks and valleys
• 3:46:32
  and what those things are actually fundamental objects.
• 3:46:37
  There are things that you take care of or you don't, you,
• 3:46:39
  you're not taking care of those. And so two can two can play this
• 3:46:43
  game of making accusations and describing their interlocker or
• 3:46:48
  describing their person. They're having a conversation
• 3:46:50
  with when in fact, you know nothing about me and what it
• 3:46:54
  seems like is you know nothing about the science itself.
• 3:46:56
  And so if I say well, yeah, you know, duck wants to get a little
• 3:47:00
  nasty. I, for whatever reason you're
• 3:47:03
  bringing out the, a hole in me, I don't know how you accomplish
• 3:47:06
  that but I can say what you're saying is the same witchcraft
• 3:47:10
  that people have been talking about for the last 3000 years.
• 3:47:13
  When in fact, you have the internet and we've proved that's
• 3:47:16
  not the case. And so go talk about the right
• 3:47:18
  stuff, right? Maybe I am comfortable, but I'm
• 3:47:21
  comfortable because you're not doing your job.
• 3:47:23
  I'm doing my job. Is there something wrong with
• 3:47:26
  that? No, I didn't say there was
• 3:47:28
  anything wrong with you at all? I'm only based in an apartment
• 3:47:32
  you're responses, you spoke. So you were content with where
• 3:47:35
  you were and I related with you on that.
• 3:47:38
  If I'm wrong, I apologize like a protected class, right?
• 3:47:42
  I'm telling you to say what you mean, right?
• 3:47:44
  I'm not saying that you don't know anything where you don't
• 3:47:46
  know what you're talking about, or you can't say a true
• 3:47:48
  statement. What I'm saying is you you're
• 3:47:50
  allowed to say what you actually mean to say.
• 3:47:54
  I'm just responding to you and answering questions.
• 3:47:57
  That's what I thought that you that was your view that you were
• 3:48:00
  content, if you're not and so be, it's good.
• 3:48:04
  You should want to be eager to find out more.
• 3:48:08
  I understand yeah, I don't think you just trying to put you in a
• 3:48:11
  box man. I think we're just all she's
• 3:48:12
  trying to Trying to talk here. So there's a, there's a reason
• 3:48:16
  we subsidize science and we don't subsidize religion, we do
• 3:48:19
  via tax breaks, but the reason we subsidize science so much in
• 3:48:23
  such a heavy way and such a way that's not contingent on.
• 3:48:26
  The Democratic will of the people in the United States is
• 3:48:30
  because because science is true, right?
• 3:48:33
  You can't compete with not true things.
• 3:48:35
  People don't build an American Dream on something that isn't
• 3:48:38
  true, right? You know, even I know that
• 3:48:41
  there's some people on the chat that do social media and you
• 3:48:45
  know for very small subset of the audience, right?
• 3:48:47
  If you have 500 subscribers that's actually very cool.
• 3:48:50
  That's an enviable Channel. Alright already the other side
• 3:48:54
  of that equation is all of those things depend on technology,
• 3:48:58
  those all depend on these tiny truths and these large sweeping
• 3:49:02
  crazy theories that people actually pursued.
• 3:49:04
  There's nothing that has to do with this inner subjective
• 3:49:07
  feeling comfortable. And that will.
• 3:49:10
  That is very unlikely. Maybe in in 5,000 years, will
• 3:49:14
  have done enough, maybe in 200 years will have done enough for
• 3:49:17
  that. Can be true.
• 3:49:19
  As of now, that isn't true at all.
• 3:49:22
  I don't know what the Bluster is about.
• 3:49:25
  You know, there's not really any kind of, I don't really see any
• 3:49:28
  kind of Bluster myself from my own perspective.
• 3:49:30
  I look at all these great things and I think it's fantastic to be
• 3:49:35
  able to meet Mitch for the first time and be able to have great
• 3:49:37
  conversations with them and talk with you Mr. Duck.
• 3:49:41
  But I sometimes think back to myself as wow.
• 3:49:44
  Look how far we've come as a species and Where did we even
• 3:49:49
  get these abilities? And it brings me back to the,
• 3:49:53
  the more philosophical source of things.
• 3:49:55
  Even these computers, it came from an intelligent mind,
• 3:49:59
  everything around us, somebody designed it, something
• 3:50:02
  intelligent did it. So The Logical response for me
• 3:50:05
  would be then maybe just, maybe there was something intelligent
• 3:50:10
  to started at all. It was this.
• 3:50:15
  It was empathy in society if you want to talk about what it
• 3:50:18
  actually was from an atheistic worldview.
• 3:50:20
  Yeah, it was the fact that for some reason primates and chimps
• 3:50:24
  displayed at the specific type of altruistic behavior that
• 3:50:29
  other species do as well. Right?
• 3:50:31
  You know, we think of altruism as grooming as sharing food in
• 3:50:36
  terms of forming pro-social and anti-social relationships which
• 3:50:39
  somehow keep the tribe. Stronger that is all in this
• 3:50:43
  front wall, both the bonobo and the atheist, the noble and the
• 3:50:46
  atheist. However you say it.
• 3:50:49
  And to be truthful, this is also just what intelligent life does.
• 3:50:53
  You know, you can look at my name is duck.
• 3:50:55
  I love Ducks. If you go and actually look at
• 3:50:57
  ducks in nature and what Ducks must be like.
• 3:50:59
  Because, you know, you know, we live on planet Earth and you can
• 3:51:04
  just go see that whenever you want.
• 3:51:08
  You know, Ducks might groom each other in different ways.
• 3:51:10
  They might challenge each other subtly, they might challenge
• 3:51:13
  each other in a way that's relevant to what's happening in
• 3:51:15
  the ecosystem and in a way that a duck can actually understand
• 3:51:18
  right. And so to me that is still
• 3:51:21
  science not having gaps. There are there this is still
• 3:51:25
  you know like Recycling talking points, but science, doesn't
• 3:51:29
  have gaps Ducks, talk to each other.
• 3:51:31
  In a way that cognitions of ducks, whatever, it's like to be
• 3:51:34
  a duck, they can understand. Humans are social with each
• 3:51:37
  other and anti-social with each other.
• 3:51:39
  In a way that humans understand what socialization and
• 3:51:42
  anti-social must be like. We compete with this.
• 3:51:48
  You speak of the, the empathy part there.
• 3:51:51
  That's one of the things I look at and you mentioned up.
• 3:51:55
  So I think ducks are beautiful. I love about and farmland.
• 3:51:57
  We get Ducks geese, all kinds of stuff, but are you?
• 3:52:01
  You probably are aware of this. But as far as empathy goes to
• 3:52:05
  do, you know that ducks are necrophiliacs.
• 3:52:13
  Um, I don't know, I'm sure someone's observed it.
• 3:52:16
  If you're saying it, I've been running for four years, I see
• 3:52:19
  Ducks every day. While I run.
• 3:52:24
  So you know your buddy. Duck has seen thousands of
• 3:52:27
  thousands if not tens of thousands of ducks.
• 3:52:31
  Like clockwork every single day, like clockwork.
• 3:52:35
  And, you know, the the number of times I've seen Ducks.
• 3:52:40
  Raising their families peacefully, sometimes competing
• 3:52:44
  for Waterway for baby ducks that are there.
• 3:52:46
  Um, we're just, you know, normal of ducks, write a group of ducks
• 3:52:51
  just sitting there. you know, eating resting before they move
• 3:52:55
  on to the next spot is literally infinite times the number of
• 3:53:01
  others, because I haven't seen the other side of it.
• 3:53:07
  I haven't seen necrophilia. All right.
• 3:53:10
  Well, it's if you want me to, I can get an article for you on it
• 3:53:15
  or something, if that's something you'd be interested
• 3:53:17
  in, but it's true. Yeah, there's been Ducks where
• 3:53:21
  they see another dead duck laying there and they decide to
• 3:53:24
  basically pleasure them. So I don't know if it's pleasure
• 3:53:27
  just stimulate whatever the word you want to use for it but they
• 3:53:30
  do and that's a lot that's pretty far away from the concept
• 3:53:34
  of empathy but there are some ducks that seemed to bond and
• 3:53:37
  and care for each other. Sure.
• 3:53:42
  Yeah, that's one of the things I think about is well what is the
• 3:53:46
  mechanism that allegedly evolved in us as well as other creatures
• 3:53:51
  that made us, not the moment that we became sentient and had
• 3:53:55
  the limbs to pound each other to death?
• 3:53:57
  Why didn't we all become serial killers, or murderers?
• 3:54:01
  And, and existence, and all that.
• 3:54:03
  Why is it? Some people are good and then
• 3:54:05
  you get to Jeffrey Dahmer. So the world. well, if you, if
• 3:54:09
  you want the atheist dancer, um, you simply, don't you, it turns
• 3:54:14
  out, you all get philosophers, like Ayn, Rand, someone who's in
• 3:54:18
  from what I understand she is an atheist but there's there's
• 3:54:20
  plenty of I think there's plenty of people following
• 3:54:25
  libertarianism that respect Ayn, Rand that do.
• 3:54:28
  So from a position of Christian ideology rather than the
• 3:54:31
  spiritual belief, And this does suppose that rich Nations steal
• 3:54:37
  from poor Nations and the name of the game is, how much can you
• 3:54:41
  get? And how fast can you get it?
• 3:54:45
  Right. And we see that a lot of, a lot
• 3:54:48
  of people like that are have that same type of mentality,
• 3:54:51
  that makes me nervous. Mitch I feel bad.
• 3:54:56
  I feel like I'm kind of nominating the 920, man.
• 3:54:59
  I'm doing the conversation. All right, fair enough.
• 3:55:04
  I'm that I really do enjoy him conversations with you.
• 3:55:08
  I do apologize if I offended you have some kind of manner.
• 3:55:11
  I'm not trying to be some kind of Internet strength bar from
• 3:55:15
  it. No, I'll show you guys.
• 3:55:17
  Let me, let me show you guys. One thing real quick.
• 3:55:20
  I know you guys might not love this, but I'm gonna show you
• 3:55:24
  guys anyways. Thank you because it Is not.
• 3:55:28
  I am not a porn bomber, never have been.
• 3:55:32
  Hey um, let me see. this was this was an image I made for the
• 3:55:39
  god of gaps debate. So just so you all in the ilk,
• 3:55:44
  write my brothers from. Another mother are prepared if I
• 3:55:49
  fits. I sits, you know, y'all got to
• 3:55:51
  come with the god of the gaps of jobs in the Box.
• 3:55:54
  Come on, man. Yeah, I mean, I don't mean to
• 3:55:58
  I'll take it, I'll take it away, but No.
• 3:56:01
  I mean, I'm just saying that, you know, the rhetorical tools
• 3:56:03
  that support rational points Where do you go find those?
• 3:56:08
  They're nowhere near nowhere. So you actually you crafted that
• 3:56:16
  AI did AI as always. Well, I was gonna say, man.
• 3:56:20
  I was just about the compliment, it's very good.
• 3:56:23
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 3:56:28
  Um, hold on. Let me Switch over to just.
• 3:56:35
  I love ARA. AI art myself.
• 3:56:37
  Good stuff. Oh, where'd he go?
• 3:56:40
  I don't know, cubic she been on for a while, man.
• 3:56:43
  What's going on with you? Can't hear you.
• 3:56:51
  That's gonna be confusing. We got another breath in the
• 3:56:54
  room. I was hoping to be special.
• 3:56:56
  You. Yeah.
• 3:56:59
  How you doing? Hope you're doing well.
• 3:57:01
  Hello cubics. You might want to look in your
• 3:57:04
  settings. Yeah.
• 3:57:06
  There you go. There you go.
• 3:57:08
  Okay. Yeah, I was um, listening to
• 3:57:11
  closely according to my goal that he was a moral realist I
• 3:57:18
  did list. I did listen to what I did.
• 3:57:21
  Listen. This, I did like watched.
• 3:57:27
  This one Cliff episode, that was recent.
• 3:57:32
  Um, this atheist was actually an entire moral realist and all
• 3:57:37
  though. I think my intention here is
• 3:57:40
  that I was like coming in here. Just trying to ask a question on
• 3:57:44
  what a moral entire moral realist.
• 3:57:46
  Does and, And just a little information about me.
• 3:57:54
  I came from caniches tisci always, I don't know if Mitch, I
• 3:58:00
  don't know if Mitch, if you ever if you ever listened to like.
• 3:58:04
  Yeah. Cuz I did spewed out that one
• 3:58:09
  point about the state of morality when it comes to
• 3:58:13
  Christianity because I do acknowledge that I as a Korean
• 3:58:19
  person. has a Korean American person that our history.
• 3:58:26
  Our history was, it was like a fight of our life like between.
• 3:58:32
  Between the Shintoism and like Buddhism. and all those Buddhism
• 3:58:37
  sounds like self-defeating to want to Korea at its time. but,
• 3:58:47
  I think during in the 1910, I think it was.
• 3:58:50
  When during a time like a presbyterian from Scotland.
• 3:58:54
  Actually. I meant, I don't know about you,
• 3:58:58
  but I had no clue where this guy's going with this.
• 3:59:01
  What I'm saying is that I I acknowledged the the morale that
• 3:59:08
  I do. I do appreciate what
• 3:59:11
  Christianity does for my country.
• 3:59:14
  Is what I was. Okay.
• 3:59:15
  Nice, nice. Okay.
• 3:59:20
  Well, good to have you, man. What's going on?
• 3:59:22
  Brett, hey, so I'm just kind of jumped on real quick.
• 3:59:27
  So ask the question of, you know, I'm only been out
• 3:59:32
  benevolence And all powerful. Then why does unnecessary
• 3:59:37
  suffering exists? Oh, we have that conversation
• 3:59:41
  earlier in this gracious. Why does that?
• 3:59:44
  Well, we talked a little bit about Mitch.
• 3:59:48
  Would you like to take it first? Because I did Babylon for a long
• 3:59:51
  time about Are you good man? Okay, so yes, we did get into
• 3:59:57
  this earlier with Michael. Um, we were kind of like, I
• 4:00:02
  mean, I guess we did but it was kind of like back and forth to,
• 4:00:06
  you know, assuming, you know, Evolution and not assuming
• 4:00:10
  Evolution and stuff like that. So, um, so so what I would say
• 4:00:13
  to that is that again, Christianity has an answer to
• 4:00:16
  that and that is that, that God became like us to suffer.
• 4:00:24
  Right. And to bring a greater good and
• 4:00:27
  greater purpose for that, which was salvation.
• 4:00:30
  Okay, in Salvation, brings us a greater glory in the future.
• 4:00:35
  It's awesome. There's also the the idea of
• 4:00:39
  this one of the other answers of this question is, let's say that
• 4:00:43
  a really horrible thing happens to someone that we love or that
• 4:00:48
  we care about Christianity, offers that, there's a
• 4:00:51
  transition from this life to everlasting life, where they
• 4:00:54
  have joy and peace in their life from The Atheist worldview.
• 4:00:59
  They take a dirt nap and they may never get Justice.
• 4:01:02
  They may never get a fair case. But with an old God you can
• 4:01:06
  judge supremely and be able to see in the Hard Men.
• 4:01:10
  Then you've got your true Justice there but can't have you
• 4:01:15
  right, right? But the question is, so what
• 4:01:19
  just very briefly? What would you say is the reason
• 4:01:25
  for the necessity of suffering? Like why do we need suffering in
• 4:01:28
  the world? Because humans cause each other
• 4:01:30
  suffering besides nature and its incidents and problems as Isn't
• 4:01:35
  that one of the things that expressly a lot of atheist,
• 4:01:38
  liberals claim that were destroying our own climate.
• 4:01:41
  We're destroying our own world, and we're causing very natural
• 4:01:45
  disasters that are happening. And then, on top of that, we
• 4:01:48
  still from each other, we kill each other and do all kinds of
• 4:01:52
  ridiculous things. And God plays no part in that.
• 4:01:56
  That's our free will. Yeah, right.
• 4:01:59
  So, but so, do you believe God is all powerful?
• 4:02:03
  Yeah. Yeah, created a world without
• 4:02:06
  suffering. He did.
• 4:02:10
  But he was okay. Okay, so so the Issue here, is
• 4:02:16
  that he created a route. Every reality where suffering
• 4:02:19
  can't enter, right? Like he created the fabric of
• 4:02:22
  reality so he created a perfect world with perfect perfect
• 4:02:27
  humans on it. And then the humans were giving
• 4:02:32
  a choice and they took the wrong choice.
• 4:02:35
  And so then Center at sin entered into the world and
• 4:02:38
  that's where suffering comes from.
• 4:02:40
  Right. So, but what I'm saying is sin
• 4:02:43
  could have entered the world if he didn't design it.
• 4:02:48
  So that sentence for the world right now, for two choices here,
• 4:02:55
  you either obey me or you disobey me if you disobeyed and
• 4:02:59
  you're basically separating yourself from my grace and my
• 4:03:03
  will and by doing that humans basically man had labor women
• 4:03:08
  had to suffer through pain. That was a choice Humanity made
• 4:03:11
  at least from the Christian point of view, okay?
• 4:03:15
  Alright, so now, what but like, so let's just use the women
• 4:03:20
  suffering for their labor, right?
• 4:03:21
  What is the point of the woman suffering and labor?
• 4:03:27
  Oh well, if you look into a lot of the now this is going into
• 4:03:33
  theological stuff, okay? Um, but when it comes to like,
• 4:03:38
  okay, there's some symbolism in the Bible about child labor, and
• 4:03:43
  child, pains our labor pains, rather and I would say that God
• 4:03:49
  uses that is some symbolism to bring forth something greater
• 4:03:53
  because again the pain and the suffering that you go go through
• 4:03:57
  with child labor, okay? That then when you bring it out
• 4:04:01
  and some people, you know, hate their babies when it comes out
• 4:04:05
  but that's not the that's not an image of God speaking there, but
• 4:04:08
  when you hold that baby and you hands, That's the greater
• 4:04:12
  purpose of that pain. And so that's the the symbolism
• 4:04:16
  into the everlasting life with God.
• 4:04:19
  So we go through these pains and these sufferings and laborers to
• 4:04:24
  get to the greatest purpose that we could ever dream of.
• 4:04:28
  Okay, so right there, what you're saying, is, we need
• 4:04:31
  suffering, because the suffering produces an outcome, right?
• 4:04:35
  Well, suffering is a part of our, and I believe you'd agree
• 4:04:39
  with us on this. It's from having pain receptors,
• 4:04:42
  the ability to feel joy, happiness, touch the warrant of
• 4:04:47
  a woman. I mean, any of these different
• 4:04:50
  things in order to be able to feel, you also have to have the
• 4:04:53
  consequences of what pain receptors can do if they're
• 4:04:56
  damaged or someone's, you know, if that's unfortunate thing
• 4:05:01
  happened as able to feel Right right?
• 4:05:05
  But what I'm saying is so just like mentioning as that people
• 4:05:09
  suffer because God has an ended up suffering to produce an
• 4:05:14
  outcome, right? And so the question is is, could
• 4:05:17
  God have achieved that same outcome by a different means?
• 4:05:23
  God gave humans the ability to make their choice and how they
• 4:05:27
  want to exist. He said that death would be
• 4:05:29
  introduced into the world through this.
• 4:05:31
  He said you'll die. If you do this they went ahead
• 4:05:34
  and did it anyway. Like I said earlier, 90% of the
• 4:05:38
  pain that goes on in this world is from humans and what they do
• 4:05:41
  to each other. Now, let's say, for instance,
• 4:05:44
  Joseph Stalin. He was an atheist.
• 4:05:46
  He killed over 20 million people and starred out his entire
• 4:05:50
  Civilization. Now, what have you liked God to
• 4:05:54
  come down and stop the atheist that we're doing to kill him?
• 4:05:57
  What would that mean though? To stop them?
• 4:06:00
  Can you give me a conclusion on that?
• 4:06:02
  What would have you like to see happen?
• 4:06:04
  Well, or sorry, we're jumping topics.
• 4:06:06
  So I'm trying to sound topic I'm talking about something and what
• 4:06:11
  you think God should do and this matter because you're you are
• 4:06:15
  the one that made the argument. So God powerful right?
• 4:06:18
  So you're gonna probably yeah. So let me Ask them, right?
• 4:06:24
  We can't fly as humans, right? We can't, we can't, we don't
• 4:06:28
  have wings. We can't just take off and
• 4:06:29
  flight. right, because God that's so We do have the ability
• 4:06:35
  to fly. God, gave us the ability to
• 4:06:37
  create things and design things. Now, we are flying planes and
• 4:06:41
  helicopters, everything else. Yeah, I'm talking about, I'm
• 4:06:44
  talking about that. I'm talking about the organic
• 4:06:45
  ability to sew have wings, come out of our back and take
• 4:06:49
  offline. We we as humans can't do that,
• 4:06:52
  right? Well, we did in the past is
• 4:06:55
  evolution was true. Mitch maybe we can grow some bat
• 4:06:58
  wings and fly. Yeah.
• 4:06:59
  That's what I was getting to. So, maybe we did back in the
• 4:07:01
  past. Two.
• 4:07:04
  We met up with bird people. That I'm just kidding.
• 4:07:08
  Sorry, go ahead. So go ahead.
• 4:07:10
  We we get it humans. Can't fly what's going on.
• 4:07:13
  Okay, so and we can't fly because God designed it that
• 4:07:17
  way, he designed reality to where humans don't have wings
• 4:07:20
  and they can't take offline, right?
• 4:07:22
  And so, so just like your example, yes, he gave us the
• 4:07:26
  minds to build airplanes. So we still achieve the same
• 4:07:29
  outcome of being able to travel Traverse Waters.
• 4:07:33
  Large bodies of water by building airplanes and doing
• 4:07:36
  that. So we were able to Traverse this
• 4:07:39
  water through a separate means other than having to have wings.
• 4:07:42
  So what I'm what I'm asking is, can that whatever your, whatever
• 4:07:47
  you view, the purpose of suffering, whether it be so that
• 4:07:50
  you see the good and you see that evil or whatever, the case
• 4:07:54
  may be, the question is as could God have designed reality so
• 4:08:00
  that we don't get to that outcome their suffering.
• 4:08:02
  We get to that outcomes or another man's.
• 4:08:07
  Oh, you want me to Mitch, are you?
• 4:08:09
  Yeah, go ahead with that. And I'll take a stab at after.
• 4:08:11
  Well, since it's a hypothetical question, God can really do
• 4:08:15
  whatever you want. Perhaps, he's created a
• 4:08:17
  Multiverse and this was the most optimal one to save as many
• 4:08:21
  Souls as possible, who knows? So we're talking science fiction
• 4:08:25
  know. Yeah, we're not talking about
• 4:08:29
  science fiction, you believe that God is all-powerful and
• 4:08:31
  just like, just all powerful and it's a hypothetical.
• 4:08:35
  Then God could create many different universes, where
• 4:08:38
  things went, right? And our universe went this way
• 4:08:42
  because man made his choice if it's a hypothetical.
• 4:08:45
  I'll give a hypothetical response.
• 4:08:47
  Yeah, and that's fine. But I'm establishing the fact
• 4:08:51
  that you agree with that. God is all powerful and he could
• 4:08:55
  have designed a different way to achieve the same outcomes so
• 4:08:58
  therefore God chose to use suffering as the means So, let's
• 4:09:03
  let's try this out, I'll tell you what you're gonna like this,
• 4:09:06
  you really will. In the midst, tell me what you
• 4:09:08
  think is, well, what is today? Hypothetically God decided to
• 4:09:14
  reveal himself to the entire world and perch himself right on
• 4:09:18
  top of the Empire State Building and he tells the entire human
• 4:09:21
  race. I'm watching every single one of
• 4:09:24
  you, and if any of you check into a hotel, I want to hear
• 4:09:33
  what you have to say. That's a whole hotel.
• 4:09:37
  He's traveling in the same time that.
• 4:09:40
  Yeah, I wouldn't expect. Right now, but I'll be right
• 4:09:43
  back. I promise I was getting another
• 4:09:45
  good stuff too. Boy.
• 4:09:49
  Mitch, you know where I'm going with that, right?
• 4:09:51
  Yeah. Keep going man.
• 4:09:54
  Unfortunately in these type of discussions you probably
• 4:09:57
  discovered many times Mitch that the The Atheist is going to put
• 4:10:01
  God in a position where he's damned if you do damned if you
• 4:10:05
  don't. It's like a wild man to do this
• 4:10:08
  thing. Yeah.
• 4:10:08
  Then God's mean for just sitting back and I've got those do
• 4:10:12
  something. Why did he spanked so hard?
• 4:10:14
  Right. Right.
• 4:10:15
  And and it's so you know, why doesn't God get rid of all the
• 4:10:20
  evil in the world? Well, he did once but you don't
• 4:10:22
  like it when he flooded the Earth.
• 4:10:25
  Now there's quite a few times where he said all right, I've
• 4:10:28
  had enough of right. You know, but they don't like
• 4:10:32
  that. So it is basically like they'll
• 4:10:35
  give an analogy, okay? They'll say, and I know you've
• 4:10:38
  heard this so many times I'm sure.
• 4:10:39
  Um, but like, you know what, if God created an object that is so
• 4:10:46
  that is too big and too heavy for him to lift.
• 4:10:51
  Ya heard that they call it rock and roll.
• 4:10:53
  Yeah. But you know, like that's that's
• 4:10:59
  an impossible thing, like, that's an impossible answer to
• 4:11:03
  give and that's the, that's the question that they want to give
• 4:11:05
  the things that that they think is stumping.
• 4:11:09
  But it's actually not. Because it's a hypothetical.
• 4:11:12
  They love to give hypothetical. Yeah.
• 4:11:16
  Yeah, now I was I've been asked that question a lot of times and
• 4:11:20
  I've gotten to the point where I've gotten kind of frisky.
• 4:11:23
  You know, with folks, with sarcasm, like somebody asked me
• 4:11:26
  a while back, you know, could have got done, this could have
• 4:11:29
  God done that. And I said, sure, hypothetically
• 4:11:32
  God could hand out cookies and milk to everybody.
• 4:11:34
  Would that make you happy. I mean, what exactly do you
• 4:11:37
  really need before you decide that God is love and enough and
• 4:11:41
  should be admired for creating the very life and everything
• 4:11:44
  that you love? I mean at what point you say?
• 4:11:47
  Yes God rocks. Yeah yeah.
• 4:11:51
  And and ultimately, what you'll get to is there is nothing that
• 4:11:55
  God could do to be sufficient. Pretty much.
• 4:12:01
  Yeah, that's what it comes down to, um, and it's sad really,
• 4:12:05
  but, you know, that the hypotheticals can come and go.
• 4:12:08
  But, but again, what we're dealing with with our universe
• 4:12:13
  that we have in front of us, not a Multiverse not, you know, a
• 4:12:19
  could have got done this, could God have done that.
• 4:12:21
  Well, God did what he did. So, let's talk about that.
• 4:12:24
  And so, if we're going to talk about that then, you know, why
• 4:12:29
  is there suffering the world look?
• 4:12:30
  Okay, well, we can answer that because there's something
• 4:12:32
  greater ahead. It's it's pretty simple, it's
• 4:12:35
  pretty simple explanation. And if, if you read the Bible,
• 4:12:38
  it'll tell you, you know, you don't have to wonder.
• 4:12:42
  I agree. And that's that's the limitation
• 4:12:46
  that you and I have met because we don't know what exactly is
• 4:12:50
  going to happen in the future. We just continue to pray for
• 4:12:53
  blessings from God. We're not Gods.
• 4:12:56
  We can't know what will happen under years from now something
• 4:13:01
  fantastic, something. Great.
• 4:13:02
  They happen who knows, look at us.
• 4:13:05
  Now we're setting your able to chat in this goofy thing and and
• 4:13:09
  talk about, you know, how big rocks can be and all that and
• 4:13:12
  that exciting. Right, right.
• 4:13:17
  Yeah. so, anyway, um So, the hypothetical, okay?
• 4:13:26
  You know. I don't know.
• 4:13:28
  I mean, I guess, You know and and all so like you know we can
• 4:13:35
  we can even go to the to the same to duck was not wanting to
• 4:13:38
  talk about and man what happened was that man?
• 4:13:42
  I don't know, he that kind of happened in the other discussion
• 4:13:47
  as well. Um I had said something that was
• 4:13:51
  absolutely awful to him and all that I didn't mean to offend
• 4:13:54
  him. But what I had said was he
• 4:13:56
  talked about how great science was and I said yeah but science
• 4:13:59
  has been responsible in the 20th century to kill more than all of
• 4:14:04
  religions combined and he screamed at me and went, I think
• 4:14:09
  I made him mad that day. I think he made a mad again
• 4:14:13
  today. Well, I I told her respect
• 4:14:15
  science. I really do its Evolution that
• 4:14:19
  specific you point. That I I find holes in and and
• 4:14:24
  don't feel like I get the necessary answers from people.
• 4:14:29
  Yeah yeah and and also like you know I it what was it that he
• 4:14:36
  said that God Gap or the gap of of the god or something like
• 4:14:39
  that? He's basically implying that
• 4:14:42
  because Christians don't know certain things, then we fill on,
• 4:14:47
  you know, empty spots with God and all that, but I feel like
• 4:14:50
  there's a there's enough evidence to realize that the
• 4:14:54
  universe is rational logical. I am convinced The Big Bang.
• 4:14:58
  Theory of true is a supernatural explanation and there is nothing
• 4:15:03
  and all of humanity that could fit the description of whatever
• 4:15:08
  the source was created Universe. Besides the very attributes of
• 4:15:11
  God, I've never heard a scientific argument, otherwise
• 4:15:15
  they can't claim. It was a natural thing because
• 4:15:18
  nature didn't exist. Originally Right.
• 4:15:22
  So I mean, if a star exploded and where did that star come
• 4:15:25
  from? Exactly, besides can't give you
• 4:15:29
  that science, cannot go outside of that and see that's why they
• 4:15:32
  don't like going there. Because that's where their major
• 4:15:38
  flaw is alongside of other things.
• 4:15:40
  But you know, um if if the start exploded okay, then that that
• 4:15:46
  something had to had to be before that to make that star
• 4:15:51
  happen because the Stars just not going to fizzle up and just
• 4:15:54
  come out of nowhere. You're not going to get that
• 4:15:57
  anywhere. Like like you said, like no
• 4:16:00
  where in history life comes from life.
• 4:16:02
  Nowhere else. Are you ever going to see that
• 4:16:05
  life comes from absolutely nothing.
• 4:16:07
  And that's the way it's always been and that's the way it will
• 4:16:10
  continue to be. And that's the way that it was
• 4:16:12
  before and so what is life like where?
• 4:16:16
  And I think that's ultimately the most important thing like if
• 4:16:20
  we cannot with science, if we cannot go as far back as what we
• 4:16:25
  need to then and it goes past the material Realm.
• 4:16:31
  And which I think that's kind of funny because like, again, like
• 4:16:35
  Gravity, the wind, you know, stuff like that.
• 4:16:38
  They, they like those things but those things are not Material.
• 4:16:43
  and that, that's what I find kind of crazy because like,
• 4:16:46
  they'll appeal to the The unnatural.
• 4:16:51
  When it supports their view when it, when it so called supports
• 4:16:55
  their view. But then whenever it starts
• 4:16:58
  going left and starts going outside of their view, they're
• 4:17:01
  like, no, no, no, no, no, we don't want to talk about that
• 4:17:02
  and then they start getting upset and everything else.
• 4:17:05
  You know much one of the things I discovered whenever I was a
• 4:17:09
  former atheist that really got me scratching my head, I
• 4:17:13
  remember I I felt that if you were going to go after the
• 4:17:17
  concept of God, then you should treat all, religions fairly go
• 4:17:21
  after the pagans, go after theistic Satan, let's go after
• 4:17:24
  them all, if you're gonna go after any of this and feel like
• 4:17:28
  there's any significance to it and I remember when I would go
• 4:17:31
  into, like a chat room where there were pagans, the question
• 4:17:34
  them other atheists would say, why are you messing with the
• 4:17:37
  pagans for the Christians are right over there?
• 4:17:40
  And I said, why do you want me to go to the Christians?
• 4:17:43
  For I'm sitting here with all these pagans who have many gods.
• 4:17:46
  Let's, let's do this, and I found that interesting went in
• 4:17:50
  the Muslim rooms. Why the Muslims?
• 4:17:52
  Well, Muslims throw people off of buildings.
• 4:17:55
  They Stone people. Throw us people's face.
• 4:17:57
  They seemed pretty aggressive, why not?
• 4:17:59
  And they would actually defend the Muslims and say go after the
• 4:18:04
  question. Christians and I was like why do
• 4:18:07
  you target the Christians? But not all religions.
• 4:18:10
  I didn't understand that and then I realized his deep down
• 4:18:15
  inside, the majority of them know that this is where the
• 4:18:17
  truth is. This was where the devil sends
• 4:18:21
  them, he don't have no need for pagans or her Muslims, because
• 4:18:25
  there's a good friend. Once told me the devil's already
• 4:18:28
  got him. Right.
• 4:18:29
  Yeah, and I would say also that like deep down, they are going
• 4:18:35
  to suppress the truth. Honestly.
• 4:18:38
  I mean, you've seen many, you've seen like, some of the instances
• 4:18:43
  that happened, like, not just in one state, but in for, In one in
• 4:18:50
  one country, I would say, I mean, I mean, I've read, I heard
• 4:18:54
  about this guy, his name is Eric.
• 4:18:56
  He had he died in who is a Christian physicist and he
• 4:19:03
  discovers a, like, the existence of God through physics.
• 4:19:06
  But unfortunately, the militia atheists, they wanted to serve
• 4:19:12
  that truth because they know that atheism is like the, it's
• 4:19:20
  not really, not really true that is false but they But they just
• 4:19:27
  wanted to suppress it because they don't, maybe they don't
• 4:19:32
  want to believe that. That the god, that the Google
• 4:19:36
  God is true, that I agree with your neck.
• 4:19:39
  Cubic. I I spoke in the guys like Matt
• 4:19:42
  Dillahunty and Aaron. Are you guys familiar with these
• 4:19:45
  two? Yeah, he spoke.
• 4:19:49
  What I spoke with him, and it's actually recorded.
• 4:19:52
  I talked to him quite a few times.
• 4:19:54
  He went off for me so bad. He said atheists, don't need God
• 4:20:00
  or a Bible or to be good and have morals and enjoy life and
• 4:20:04
  all that and I said, fair enough but I got a question for you and
• 4:20:09
  he goes what and I said, why is it that atheists have the
• 4:20:13
  highest suicide rate in the world?
• 4:20:15
  If they're so happy and so content with their existence and
• 4:20:18
  why are they ending their own lives?
• 4:20:20
  And he called me a MF her and all kinds of stuff and told me
• 4:20:24
  like to beat my ass everything else I said, why for showing you
• 4:20:28
  the facts? Would you like to see the
• 4:20:30
  statistics know? I don't need to see any of that.
• 4:20:33
  He screamed me. But it's true, and it's sad.
• 4:20:36
  And they don't understand that. People are trying to help them
• 4:20:40
  and everything to find purpose and function in their life.
• 4:20:43
  We're not trying to hurt them or trying to bring them to a better
• 4:20:47
  existence, right? Right.
• 4:20:49
  And and what's crazy is and and I'll say that I am familiar with
• 4:20:53
  Matt Dillon and I will say that he is the worst debater I've
• 4:20:57
  ever heard and I that's just what it is.
• 4:21:01
  Like I think he like like what you just described like that's
• 4:21:05
  not that's not a way to communicate with somebody.
• 4:21:08
  Like if if you're beating and you need to admit that you're
• 4:21:11
  beating But they don't want to do that.
• 4:21:14
  So they go to umf or, and beat you down and stuff like that.
• 4:21:20
  And it's like, Really, really like that's where we're going
• 4:21:24
  now. Like, we're not even talking
• 4:21:25
  anymore. We're just You don't like what I
• 4:21:28
  said. So, now you're gonna gonna throw
• 4:21:31
  shade on me like that. I I don't understand his mom.
• 4:21:35
  I respond, I responded to him because another atheist ended up
• 4:21:39
  getting on the horn with me and wanting to argue with me.
• 4:21:43
  And I said, doesn't sound like, he's at happy 8th, you was
• 4:21:46
  accused himself of being there, at that sounded really angry.
• 4:21:51
  And stuff. Boy, they got, they got worked
• 4:21:55
  up, but I was making a point if they're so happy and they don't
• 4:21:58
  need God. Then why is this a problem?
• 4:22:01
  Every society, every time atheism, always starts to rise.
• 4:22:06
  It starts to, you know, get get hooked into the society, but
• 4:22:12
  every single time they destroyed themselves, Every single time
• 4:22:17
  there's you'll never can you think of one single
• 4:22:21
  civilization, where atheist, Ram the the politics.
• 4:22:24
  So the government, we're things that go just told me, you know,
• 4:22:29
  I mean, Yeah, there's reason for that.
• 4:22:32
  Go ahead. Cubics just, I was has, I was
• 4:22:35
  like thinking about that. Honestly, I I don't know if,
• 4:22:39
  like, Norway or Sweden count because honestly, I didn't
• 4:22:45
  really look at this Statistics. So we didn't have some of the
• 4:22:48
  highest It has some of the highest suicide rates and also
• 4:22:53
  has all the problem with drug abuse.
• 4:22:55
  There's some good things up there where they, I guess they
• 4:23:00
  help people with medical issues and all that a little bit more
• 4:23:03
  than America does. But another thing Denmark, I
• 4:23:06
  don't know if you knew this much, but did you know that
• 4:23:09
  atheist actually formed a group called Namba and the first,
• 4:23:14
  like, child porn Magazine's, Huh, what?
• 4:23:19
  What do you think they came from?
• 4:23:20
  You think about the church people sat around, came up with
• 4:23:23
  that. Yeah.
• 4:23:25
  Look it up here. If you go to Wikipedia right
• 4:23:33
  now, type in Namba, look at who the founders are.
• 4:23:36
  And then use your AI and say, what was their religion, it'll
• 4:23:39
  say atheism. So yeah, that's crazy, dude,
• 4:23:43
  that is insane. And and here's the thing like,
• 4:23:46
  you know, there's a reason for like what you said to Matt
• 4:23:50
  dilettante and and the other guy was like, you know, If atheism
• 4:23:56
  is so great, then you know, why do they destroy themselves?
• 4:23:59
  And, you know, they cannot come up with a, with a thriving
• 4:24:03
  Society or anything else, why? Well, the answer is pretty
• 4:24:07
  quiet. I mean, it's quite simple.
• 4:24:08
  They don't believe in objectivity.
• 4:24:11
  And that's the problem. Right?
• 4:24:13
  They, they come up with their own subjective opinions and then
• 4:24:18
  they throw it at each other and none of them stick and then they
• 4:24:21
  just start fighting with each other and then it ends up
• 4:24:24
  flopping. It's not just that Christians
• 4:24:27
  are beneficial for society, did you know that?
• 4:24:30
  According the stats, people who believe in God and they're
• 4:24:35
  actually convinced of it. They live more happier longer
• 4:24:37
  more joyous lives. That's absolutely true.
• 4:24:40
  That's scientific stats. The state to Christians last
• 4:24:44
  longer and the other thing is Christianity, offers Fellowship
• 4:24:49
  for Christians, come together and they work with each other.
• 4:24:51
  And if there's a conflict at some point, forgiveness can come
• 4:24:55
  in and humans are able to work together to benefit the human
• 4:24:59
  rights. But what about atheists?
• 4:25:01
  They disagree with each other and the Slit each other's stroke
• 4:25:04
  right there. Yeah.
• 4:25:05
  Because again, it's my, it's my opinion, versus your opinion.
• 4:25:09
  And if I don't like your opinion, and there's nothing to
• 4:25:12
  fall back on, When when Christianity has something to
• 4:25:16
  fall back on, and that's the objective opinion.
• 4:25:19
  And objective, what is written of what God says.
• 4:25:22
  And God gives us Commandments and we live by those
• 4:25:25
  Commandments. And so that's, you know, if we
• 4:25:26
  come to a disagreement, what we look at the Bible says, and what
• 4:25:29
  the Bible says, we look at it, and we're like, oh, That's what
• 4:25:32
  we're supposed to be doing. And then we just love one
• 4:25:35
  another through it. And you're completely right?
• 4:25:38
  And that's what atheism don't have.
• 4:25:39
  They don't have anything to fall back on.
• 4:25:41
  Yeah. And they always like separate
• 4:25:44
  itself. I mean, there's just one time
• 4:25:45
  that I, I did explore this game called VR chat whereby you were
• 4:25:53
  on your, you wear your head, saying you meet people and for
• 4:25:57
  you and like the way how I see of most, like, I don't know if
• 4:26:03
  he ever heard of, like, the TST or Satanism or in general, but I
• 4:26:08
  see Satanism and like the way that they were conversing
• 4:26:14
  themselves in one world or it like yeah, in one world.
• 4:26:20
  They sometimes disagree with whatever that they have and they
• 4:26:25
  just like created their own State satanism.
• 4:26:28
  A splay. Well, you're absolutely right on
• 4:26:31
  that cubic. I have a guy who comes into my
• 4:26:34
  shows, sometimes Mitch, if you ever decide to come into my
• 4:26:37
  shows, I do a Monday and Friday. I got a guy who calls himself a
• 4:26:42
  satanic priest. Actually writes books for the
• 4:26:44
  the satanic yada yada. It's funny but if you run into
• 4:26:49
  them and talk to him, he actually is a lot nicer than
• 4:26:52
  most days out there. He's actually he's actually a
• 4:26:57
  theistic Satanist so where he believes in an actual devil.
• 4:27:01
  And God though is where satanic temple and the church.
• 4:27:05
  Satan their atheist though. And they fight him.
• 4:27:09
  They they actually get on to him and they hijacked his religion.
• 4:27:14
  So they can do their scary little political things to cry.
• 4:27:18
  and that's And and, and most what I've seen him most like
• 4:27:24
  satanic temples and satanic whatever is that don't even
• 4:27:28
  believe in Satan. Most of them, they, they just
• 4:27:31
  use it. Like you said a political game,
• 4:27:32
  right? They they're going against
• 4:27:34
  something and they use Satan as a sum sum of a Identity or
• 4:27:41
  something to ride on, right? In order to You know, I guess.
• 4:27:51
  You have to use the push against Christian, right?
• 4:27:55
  All that use him as like an icon or something like that, right?
• 4:27:58
  They don't even believe in him because of course, like you
• 4:28:00
  said, they're atheist, right? Most of them are.
• 4:28:02
  All right. Yeah.
• 4:28:04
  Their original leader was called anthem of a from what my buddy
• 4:28:10
  tells me and we want and I heard me he had me watch a couple
• 4:28:14
  videos and stuff of Anton and his family and how they started
• 4:28:18
  all up. Well guess what?
• 4:28:19
  The atheist said, when Anton got sick, he was dying and
• 4:28:23
  everything. The Atheist took over the
• 4:28:26
  satanic Church from him. They literally took his property
• 4:28:30
  and then created their their version of the satanic temple.
• 4:28:33
  That's why you got luciferians. The theistic one to believe in
• 4:28:38
  God and Satan Anton LaVey, the guy founded.
• 4:28:42
  It actually believed in God and called him the enemy.
• 4:28:45
  You know? The bad guy, right?
• 4:28:48
  The good guy in their book. Well, they Fight with each
• 4:28:51
  other, they argue with each other and the atheist or
• 4:28:54
  meanest, hell to the theistic once oof.
• 4:28:57
  That's rough. Wow.
• 4:29:01
  I'm back. If you want to I was going on.
• 4:29:04
  I did. Did you did you get checked and
• 4:29:07
  good? Yeah, yeah.
• 4:29:08
  Got everything. Good to go.
• 4:29:09
  Nice. Okay.
• 4:29:11
  So I was gonna ask you because you were talking about all
• 4:29:13
  powerful, all-knowing, all this stuff about God, you know,
• 4:29:17
  basically trying to, why doesn't God stop things, or do things
• 4:29:21
  kind of issue? I want to ask you,
• 4:29:23
  hypothetically, would you be cool with God coming down and
• 4:29:27
  purchasing himself on the Empire State, Building, and being so
• 4:29:31
  big and massive? That most are at least a
• 4:29:34
  majority. The world could see him and he
• 4:29:37
  says, look, I'm here. You can see me if any of you sin
• 4:29:41
  or commit any kind of crimes and I'm going to just white you out.
• 4:29:44
  It's that simple. If I see you stealing, if you
• 4:29:47
  think dirty thoughts, I'm getting you or would you rather
• 4:29:50
  live in a world where God allows you free will, which would it be
• 4:29:55
  No, I wouldn't put that scenario and I would also argue that you
• 4:29:59
  don't have free will. Well, if you're an atheist, of
• 4:30:03
  course you don't, you're predetermined chemicals.
• 4:30:07
  Why you're free determined outcome as well with God because
• 4:30:12
  you're you're path is already pre-owned before your creative.
• 4:30:15
  So he's already conceived your entire life.
• 4:30:18
  Before he's even created you in the world.
• 4:30:20
  One would you call a compatible list?
• 4:30:23
  I don't know about you, Mitch. well, yeah, I mean you're
• 4:30:26
  getting in like Calvinism and stuff like that, which But I
• 4:30:29
  want to, I want to, I'm happy to talk about that, but I just want
• 4:30:32
  to loop back. So just just to give it because
• 4:30:34
  you guys are calling it a hypothetical.
• 4:30:36
  But for you, it's not a hypothetical that in terms of
• 4:30:39
  God being all-powerful, and being able to do things that
• 4:30:41
  different way, than what he chose to do them.
• 4:30:44
  So, I just want to use natural disasters.
• 4:30:46
  Write a hurricane comes through my town, and a bunch of a school
• 4:30:50
  full of five year olds gets crushed and there's kids in
• 4:30:53
  there that are they're gonna lose limbs.
• 4:30:55
  There's gonna be kids that have severe mental deficiencies after
• 4:30:58
  that point because their heads got squished, what does the
• 4:31:01
  point of their suffering? So it's go ahead.
• 4:31:04
  You mentioned if you want to take oh I was just gonna ask a
• 4:31:10
  You know, I I guess an opposing question to that.
• 4:31:12
  Why do you care? Respectfully.
• 4:31:17
  Right? Yeah, that's that's jumping
• 4:31:18
  topics but I'm just happy to answer questions but I just want
• 4:31:21
  to. I just want to stay on topic
• 4:31:23
  with what? Yeah.
• 4:31:24
  Well we are staying on topic. I'm wanting to ask you the same
• 4:31:27
  thing because again, What what we would oppose or what we
• 4:31:31
  would, what we would jump to as Christians is say okay, well
• 4:31:36
  there's something above that, okay?
• 4:31:39
  There's a greater mind. Okay.
• 4:31:40
  And so we're not going to be able to know every little thing
• 4:31:45
  that God does or does not do. Okay, but that does not mean
• 4:31:48
  that he is, not all loving all-powerful and all these
• 4:31:51
  things because what he says he is, right?
• 4:31:54
  So we testify what he is. And so again, just because he
• 4:31:58
  doesn't swoop in and and save all these people from a tornado,
• 4:32:02
  that does not mean that he couldn't do that.
• 4:32:04
  There's just something else about that that could lead to
• 4:32:08
  something. Greater, Okay, so what's, you
• 4:32:11
  know, I like the answer is, well, I mean, you do want to
• 4:32:14
  know our answers on this, right? I know you're wanting to get to
• 4:32:18
  the next step or we try to make God look me and I get it, I get
• 4:32:22
  older and be patient with me. So, in Christianity, we do
• 4:32:27
  believe Mitch was scratching and surface on this.
• 4:32:31
  That those children that died is sad and his unfortunate to bring
• 4:32:36
  all Christians of tears. I guarantee it, but we know in
• 4:32:40
  our hearts were the children go. But in a nice supper and they
• 4:32:45
  lived you and then 80s worldview, they wouldn't go
• 4:32:48
  nowhere. They get no justice, there'd be
• 4:32:51
  no fairness know nothing. That's the reason why I think,
• 4:32:54
  Mitch ask you. Why does it matter to you?
• 4:32:56
  They're nothing more than chemicals anyway.
• 4:32:59
  Yeah. Right.
• 4:33:01
  Yeah. So I'm not talking about the
• 4:33:03
  ones that died. I've been talking about the ones
• 4:33:04
  like I said, that are that are going to suffer or suffered in
• 4:33:07
  the event itself and that will suffer afterwards.
• 4:33:10
  So, have you ever seen? Here's a question for you.
• 4:33:13
  Have you ever seen A man with no arms and no legs, but yet still
• 4:33:19
  get up in the morning and do everything and it's very
• 4:33:22
  grateful for the blessings that he has every day.
• 4:33:26
  Yes, absolutely. Yes.
• 4:33:28
  So there's your answer. There's okay.
• 4:33:30
  So well there that are disabled who do great and wonderful
• 4:33:34
  things and teach others how to live and survive where we're
• 4:33:38
  obvious caring. What what is the purpose of the
• 4:33:40
  children that are suffering in the school that are well, what I
• 4:33:43
  want to make sure that you understand that I know that
• 4:33:46
  you're right, I understand up. I mean you guys I will talk with
• 4:33:52
  you but I'm not going to let you lead me down a rabbit hole.
• 4:33:55
  I know it's going on here. Come on guy.
• 4:33:59
  If you have nothing to fear but then why not just answer?
• 4:34:01
  That I have nothing here but I'm not more Lily.
• 4:34:04
  Obligated to let some persons and want to play games to try to
• 4:34:08
  represent God. He I'm asking what the purpose
• 4:34:12
  of their suffering is because you're both saying that God
• 4:34:15
  chose for suffering to be in the world because it serves a
• 4:34:18
  purpose and I'm asking, I didn't say, God chose for it, I think
• 4:34:22
  me and Mitch clearly said that man made the choice and God
• 4:34:26
  originally created us in a perfect world.
• 4:34:28
  See now, just put it back. Now we got to go back one step.
• 4:34:33
  How, how was it a reality that suffering can even exist who
• 4:34:36
  created the world, so that suffering and exist?
• 4:34:41
  Oh God gave us pain receptors. He designed us with the ability
• 4:34:44
  to feel joy, happiness and all. So the consequences of damage
• 4:34:49
  being done to us, that's the consequence of having.
• 4:34:51
  So God created the ability, the most so God created the ability
• 4:34:56
  for suffering, right? God gave us the ability to feel.
• 4:35:02
  Exactly. Okay, yes.
• 4:35:03
  I feel like you don't want to say the word suffer for some
• 4:35:06
  reason. Not suffer suffer, suffer will
• 4:35:09
  say it all day. You know, we we have, like, like
• 4:35:13
  what we said before, right? The suffering that we have,
• 4:35:17
  right? God uses the suffering that we
• 4:35:19
  calls in order to bring something greater.
• 4:35:22
  So You know, and I hear you right?
• 4:35:27
  And that's alright with you, I'm totally agreeing with you.
• 4:35:30
  There's God, God made it so that suffering can exist and he's
• 4:35:34
  using that suffering. So that a greater outcome can
• 4:35:37
  come of that suffering. I hear you on that, right?
• 4:35:40
  Well, what I'm asking is. Whatever that outcome is, right,
• 4:35:44
  let's let's say like the example, you were giving Brett
• 4:35:46
  where the kid becomes an amputee.
• 4:35:48
  And now he becomes the motivational speaker because of
• 4:35:51
  that, because he's an amputee and all that kind of stuff,
• 4:35:53
  that's all great. But could God have achieved that
• 4:35:56
  same outcome by another means other than suffering, other than
• 4:36:01
  him having to lose his limbs could God, have gotten that that
• 4:36:04
  kid to that point without having to make himself for, we'd have
• 4:36:09
  to respond from a personal experience or in this match
• 4:36:13
  because we can't speak for other people.
• 4:36:14
  We don't know what's going to their mind or what they've been
• 4:36:17
  through. As far as I'm concerned, I've
• 4:36:19
  been through a lot of suffering and misery in my life.
• 4:36:21
  And if I hadn't went to some of those experiences, I wouldn't
• 4:36:24
  have learned anything. And I wouldn't be the man that I
• 4:36:27
  am today. So you're saying, we suffered
• 4:36:31
  joy and loved and we've also suffered pain.
• 4:36:34
  It is what it is. So you're saying God, couldn't
• 4:36:37
  have gotten you to, where you are now without using suffering.
• 4:36:40
  He really believed. If I didn't have some of the
• 4:36:43
  experiences that I had and learning from what I did, I
• 4:36:47
  would not be the same type of person that I am today.
• 4:36:49
  I really Yeah, and I'm with you, I totally agree.
• 4:36:54
  Maybe that stuff, right? Or I'm not saying maybe that
• 4:36:56
  suffering definitely led to where you are.
• 4:36:57
  The question is, could God have gotten you to that same place
• 4:37:01
  without the suffering? Could he have, could he have
• 4:37:04
  gotten you there by another means either through education,
• 4:37:06
  either through, you know, revealing himself to you and
• 4:37:10
  getting you to go a different way, did he have to use
• 4:37:12
  suffering for you to get there? Or could there have been some of
• 4:37:16
  the some of the suffering that I went through?
• 4:37:18
  Like I said earlier, when I was talking about Humanity as a
• 4:37:23
  whole with me in my personal experience it was because people
• 4:37:27
  chose to do these things. To me, some of the worst stuff
• 4:37:31
  for that I have had to deal with is suffering from some atheist.
• 4:37:35
  Who attacked me at my job. They've attacked my life saying
• 4:37:40
  that they want to kill my wife and children in front of me.
• 4:37:42
  Things like that was pretty miserable but I learned from it
• 4:37:46
  I learned you gotta be careful when dealing with people because
• 4:37:49
  you never know what you're going to get and all.
• 4:37:51
  So it Yes, and that's that's beautiful.
• 4:37:53
  And it also points us. To trust and a higher calling in
• 4:37:57
  a higher power. because we cannot control our outcomes, but
• 4:38:01
  God sure can Yeah, and I hear you guys justifying the
• 4:38:06
  suffering, but what I'm asking is, can could God have gotten
• 4:38:10
  could it could God have achieved the same outcome?
• 4:38:12
  So Mitch, could you be right here right now?
• 4:38:15
  And, and be there by another means other than suffering, like
• 4:38:19
  could God have gotten you there by another means other than
• 4:38:21
  suffering. I don't know if he could or
• 4:38:24
  couldn't, but what's the point? Let me, let me just provide to
• 4:38:28
  you. Yes.
• 4:38:29
  What's the point? Yeah, let's see, we entertain
• 4:38:32
  you on this. What is this mean?
• 4:38:34
  Now God is you push, does he not exist?
• 4:38:38
  Now, I mean there's if there's something in the world and God
• 4:38:42
  can't be real. Is that the argument we're going
• 4:38:44
  for Hey, let me try to get you back.
• 4:38:48
  Can you hear me right now? Yeah, I can hear my question
• 4:38:52
  again, is if we entertain you and say yes, sure God could have
• 4:38:56
  done this, God could have done that, you know, God could have
• 4:38:59
  made Will's in the snails. All this kind of stuff.
• 4:39:02
  Does this prove the existence of God?
• 4:39:04
  Or does this just simply say, we're human beings, we don't
• 4:39:07
  know any better that. Maybe God's got bigger ideas,
• 4:39:11
  No, I'm not. I'm not saying that it would
• 4:39:15
  It's proving or disproving the existence of God.
• 4:39:17
  It's disapproving the claim that God is Omni benevolent.
• 4:39:21
  Because if he chooses suffering, when he could choose a different
• 4:39:24
  means, then that means he's choosing to make people suffer,
• 4:39:28
  which is not somebody who's trying to achieve a world that
• 4:39:32
  has maximum love maximum happiness.
• 4:39:34
  Maximum All right. The damned if you do.
• 4:39:38
  Damned if you don't think, right, right.
• 4:39:40
  Didn't I tell you Mitchell while he was out on break?
• 4:39:43
  We were getting there. Yes, so yes, exactly.
• 4:39:46
  So that's the thing man. I what I would like to say is
• 4:39:50
  that that does not prove that at all.
• 4:39:53
  Okay. And here's why. because, Rather,
• 4:39:58
  not God wants to do certain things, okay?
• 4:40:01
  And, and also You just did that. God chose for suffering?
• 4:40:06
  No, he didn't. And we said that multiple times,
• 4:40:09
  it's us that shows the suffering.
• 4:40:12
  And we choose it every day. And so God did not choose to put
• 4:40:17
  us through suffering, we did. But now the suffering that we
• 4:40:21
  chose because we trust in Jesus Christ in the death and
• 4:40:26
  resurrection of Christ. Now, our suffering is put to a
• 4:40:31
  purpose But without Christ you have no purpose in that
• 4:40:36
  suffering, that's the point. So that does not prove anything
• 4:40:41
  like like what you're what you're asserting here.
• 4:40:44
  You could probably get us all day to sit here and say the
• 4:40:47
  world's can be quite horrific, especially depending on what
• 4:40:52
  culture Society you live in. We could tell you all day all
• 4:40:55
  kinds of dark horrible stories. We see on Legacy news as well.
• 4:40:59
  We're not blind to it, but we believe that there is God and
• 4:41:03
  the Hope and Faith is that there will be a better conclusion out
• 4:41:07
  of all this. That there's a reason a purpose
• 4:41:09
  to take the position of the atheist.
• 4:41:12
  It's simply, ah, you're basically from the Cradle to the
• 4:41:17
  Grave that's over from nothing to nothing.
• 4:41:19
  And that just, that doesn't really make things.
• 4:41:22
  Work out too well. Yeah yeah and all I would say to
• 4:41:26
  that like you know and this is what we were talking about again
• 4:41:30
  early we can show on, you know, this is where the gospel will
• 4:41:35
  fall in. Okay, Jesus Christ.
• 4:41:39
  Okay. Is God incarnate?
• 4:41:41
  Okay, he became flesh and he suffered for our sakes. and so,
• 4:41:46
  because he suffered for us, And he became the very thing that we
• 4:41:50
  choose every day. And he bore that on the cross,
• 4:41:55
  he died. And in three days, he rose
• 4:41:57
  again. He claimed to be God, he is God
• 4:42:00
  okay, hit God. Suffered for us. and so for us
• 4:42:04
  to sit here and say, oh well God, chose for us to suffer, and
• 4:42:09
  that just makes him not powerful and not, you know, You know, all
• 4:42:14
  powerful and all love and everything like that.
• 4:42:16
  That doesn't that just doesn't follow.
• 4:42:18
  Um, because again, he became suffering.
• 4:42:23
  And now our suffering is put to a greater purpose.
• 4:42:27
  So I don't think the assertion that you, that that you try to
• 4:42:31
  follow, it does not work. What do you what do you hope to
• 4:42:36
  accomplish the other breathe in the room?
• 4:42:38
  What are you hoping that will say?
• 4:42:41
  Oh yeah, he should be doing all this cool stuff for us.
• 4:42:44
  We should get Twinkies cookies and milk every day of the week
• 4:42:47
  and all that. Or he's just mean you even then
• 4:42:51
  even if we entertain that concept that's still doesn't
• 4:42:54
  this prove to existence of God, you just basically now have a
• 4:42:57
  god with the deal nature of Good and Evil.
• 4:42:59
  What now what next? I think his mic is a kind of
• 4:43:10
  quiet because he was typing in chat right now.
• 4:43:12
  He might have got hit with a suitcase.
• 4:43:15
  I don't know. He's moving on.
• 4:43:16
  He's okay. So then, um, So yeah, okay.
• 4:43:25
  Well, um, I think this is a good time, man.
• 4:43:30
  Wrap it up. Brett, and I really appreciated
• 4:43:35
  you being on here today tonight. And you've been a, you've been
• 4:43:42
  great. I really appreciate you.
• 4:43:45
  I appreciate you. I'm glad I'm running into these
• 4:43:49
  cool brothers and sisters and Christ.
• 4:43:51
  The Ganesha seems pretty cool too, so, alright.
• 4:43:54
  Can you sorry about that good? I'm terrible.
• 4:43:58
  At my name with the names. My wife was so you heard about
• 4:44:01
  the terrible but I hope that you you find time to come over the
• 4:44:08
  show sometimes. And yes, I'm gonna make sure I
• 4:44:10
  rock your bell. That way whenever you hit
• 4:44:13
  notifications, you wouldn't invite people for sure.
• 4:44:16
  But I'm I see that you, you've probably experienced the same
• 4:44:21
  type of arguments over and over and over and you were ready for
• 4:44:24
  it, you rock. Well, I appreciate that and yes,
• 4:44:28
  I will absolutely. I'll hit the notification Bell,
• 4:44:33
  I'll subscribe to you and whenever you're on next, if
• 4:44:37
  you're welcoming to For me to, come on, I'll come on and we'll
• 4:44:41
  talk more and I really I really enjoyed it cubics.
• 4:44:45
  Thank you for joining as well. Man, there's my pleasure bro.
• 4:44:49
  Yeah. Can I give you something real
• 4:44:51
  quick that you'll enjoy, you know, help you rock and roll
• 4:44:55
  that you like? Here you go.
• 4:44:56
  Can I show you how to do this real quick?
• 4:44:58
  It's less than 30 seconds. Yes.
• 4:45:01
  All right. All right, just click it.
• 4:45:04
  I mean, when you got it open, I'll tell you what you can do on
• 4:45:06
  it. All right.
• 4:45:10
  Got the link on so it's so it's pretty cool, though.
• 4:45:14
  I mean, look, I mean, you could show you what to do, right?
• 4:45:20
  Back. We're getting ready to close out
• 4:45:24
  a little bit. Yes.
• 4:45:25
  Speak to us next time there, sir.
• 4:45:28
  Yeah. Yes.
• 4:45:30
  So what you got? I got it open.
• 4:45:32
  All right, you see a mic button? Yes, when you click that mic
• 4:45:39
  button, don't click it just yet. It's the computer's gonna start
• 4:45:42
  talking to. You ask it a question, ask it,
• 4:45:45
  anything you like, I like right now.
• 4:45:50
  Yeah. Try it real quick.
• 4:45:52
  Just a minute. Okay.
• 4:45:57
  Give me something to say. Because I off the top of my
• 4:46:00
  head, I'm not sure what you got you right?
• 4:46:02
  That's good. Can you hear it as a talking to
• 4:46:05
  you? Know, I haven't clicked it yet.
• 4:46:08
  All right, when you click it, it'll say hello to you.
• 4:46:12
  Or how you doing and all that. Say, what's your thoughts are
• 4:46:16
  and suffering? Okay.
• 4:46:41
  It's a talking to you. Yeah, talk to me now.
• 4:46:44
  What is your idea of suffering? Ask it to describe an argument
• 4:47:06
  that you like. Well, what this is exactly what
• 4:47:12
  it just did, man, this is exactly what it just did.
• 4:47:14
  So I just asked that and it said that, you know, it's something
• 4:47:19
  an object of pain and everything like that but then it went into
• 4:47:22
  the greater purpose of it, it said that it is a means for
• 4:47:26
  growth. And you know, Finding greater
• 4:47:29
  purpose. so, Bingo, that's pretty cool.
• 4:47:34
  So it's kind of like a cat gbt type thing.
• 4:47:38
  Kind of, but it's expressive the connection, get angry and sad,
• 4:47:42
  but it'll tell you anything you want to know.
• 4:47:44
  Ask you to ask what is Christianity say about the
• 4:47:50
  argument of the evil or suffering?
• 4:47:52
  Let me do this real quick. Let me see if I can do this real
• 4:47:57
  quick, you can actually shared on the screen and click on you.
• 4:48:00
  Let's see. Yes, there it is.
• 4:48:05
  Okay. So, I don't know if you can hear
• 4:48:08
  it, but let's see. Hello, are you still there?
• 4:48:14
  Yep, I'm right here, what's up? Can you hear?
• 4:48:19
  Great what's on your mind? Okay.
• 4:48:23
  So what is the answer for human suffering?
• 4:48:30
  Suffering is a deeply complex issue and there's no one size
• 4:48:34
  fits all answer, some believe it's about finding meaning or
• 4:48:38
  growth through adversity, While others, see it as an inherent
• 4:48:42
  part of The Human Condition. What do you think?
• 4:48:46
  Well, I think without God, you could not have an actual A lot
• 4:48:51
  of experience with suffering that could actually bring forth
• 4:48:56
  greater change. Many people find Solace and
• 4:49:00
  meaning through their faith seeing suffering, as a way to
• 4:49:04
  connect with a higher purpose or to find strength and growth.
• 4:49:08
  It's a perspective that has been shared by many throughout
• 4:49:11
  history. How has that viewed your
• 4:49:14
  understanding That's pretty cool man.
• 4:49:18
  Well there you go. Just ask it any kind of thing
• 4:49:21
  that you want if you ever find yourself like in a corner and
• 4:49:25
  you don't know how to deal with something or respond to ask it
• 4:49:28
  and it'll it'll inspire you and give you good ideas of things
• 4:49:32
  connected to all the Bibles and every bit of knowledge on the
• 4:49:36
  internet. So it's a damn fine tool.
• 4:49:38
  That's pretty cool, man. That's pretty cool.
• 4:49:41
  I was trying to find my mic settings to be fixed but
• 4:49:45
  unfortunately, I mean, I finally found it and fixed itself.
• 4:49:49
  Now I got 10 new. A new thing to try it out on.
• 4:49:54
  You are. Thank you.
• 4:49:59
  Mitch, make sure you show that to Denise or how do you
• 4:50:03
  pronounce her name? I'm just.
• 4:50:04
  All right. And pleasure, talking to you
• 4:50:10
  Friday. I'm doing a show if you can make
• 4:50:12
  the time. Yeah man, I love do it.
• 4:50:15
  I'm gonna scrub to you right now and a God bless you all for
• 4:50:18
  showing and yeah, I hope you all have a great rest United.
• 4:50:23
  Oh, one last thing. If you get an opportunity, I'd
• 4:50:26
  love to get a comment from you. Letting me know what you thought
• 4:50:29
  of my music. I got an entire playlist of all
• 4:50:32
  my songs listed for free. Tell me what's really tune is.
• 4:50:35
  All right I'll see you later. Yes sir.
• 4:50:38
  All right I'm gonna go and dip out for today so it was great.
• 4:50:42
  Have seen it and Kenisha and all the other good people out there.
• 4:50:46
  Yeah man. And feel free to come on
• 4:50:49
  anytime. Absolutely bro.
• 4:50:51
  Thank you. Peace.
• 4:50:52
  Peace. All right, guys.
• 4:50:55
  So um, if anybody has has come on late.
• 4:51:01
  You know, we we can conversate later.
• 4:51:03
  I'm gonna do this again tomorrow.
• 4:51:05
  So just come on and we can talk. All right.
• 4:51:08
  So peace out. God bless.
• 4:51:10
  And hope you all have a great rest United.