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Two Women Vanish into Thin Air? What Happened to Andrea and Linda? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: A single mother of two who coincidentally donates her time
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Speaker 1: trying to locate missing people goes missing herself. I mean,
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Speaker 1: see Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank you for being
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Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and series M one eleven.
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Speaker 1: Where Is Andrea? First of all, take a listen to this.
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Speaker 1: January seventh is Andrea's birthday. Her sister and friends spent
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Speaker 1: New Year's Day out searching for any sign of her
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Speaker 1: in a new documentary recently aired, which her father says
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Speaker 1: has sparked more interest in her case. Despite the rainy weather,
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Speaker 1: the search went on. This time. They focused on Ottoman
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Speaker 1: Park to Belmar Avenue. Her sister Aaron was the last
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Speaker 1: one to see her alive. He was calling her friends
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Speaker 1: after she left my house. She wasn't ready to go
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Speaker 1: to sleep. She was wanting to stay up and like
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Speaker 1: hang out. Joining me an all star panel of guests
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Speaker 1: to make sense of what we know right now. But
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Speaker 1: first I want to go to special guests. Mike Knabel,
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Speaker 1: this is Andrew's dad and Aaron Knabel, her sister. Thank
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Speaker 1: you so much from being with us. Mister Knabel, tell
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Speaker 1: me when you first learned that you're a daughter. Andrea
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Speaker 1: was missing I believe it was about a day end.
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Speaker 1: I got a call from Aaron and she just informed
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Speaker 1: me that Andrea wasn't answering. I personally wasn't overly concerned
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Speaker 1: at that point, because when she's not watching her children,
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Speaker 1: someday she hangs out with friends for a day or two.
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Speaker 1: So it got a little more serious after day two
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Speaker 1: or three, when Aaron told me that her friends hadn't
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Speaker 1: seen her either, and that's when we decided to follow
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Speaker 1: the missing person's report. When did it really sink into you,
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Speaker 1: mister Knabel, that she was gone? I think it was
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Speaker 1: the first major search that we had at the firehouse
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Speaker 1: when the National networks came in. So within the week
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Speaker 1: I was beginning to have some very bad feelings in
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Speaker 1: thinking that we may not get her back at all,
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Speaker 1: and it was very, very disturbing, and that was really
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Speaker 1: the serious beginning. Aaron Knabel also with me, this is
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Speaker 1: Andrew's sister. Aaron, thank you for being with us amidst
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Speaker 1: all of this. When did you first believe your sister
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Speaker 1: was missing? The very next morning, when my mother messaged
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Speaker 1: us asking if any of us had spoken with Andrea,
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Speaker 1: I thought, well, it's still kind of early she might
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Speaker 1: be still asleep. But then later on in the afternoon,
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Speaker 1: when my mom said she still could not reach Andrea,
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Speaker 1: that's when I really started checking around because she always
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Speaker 1: would check in with us and talk to us. So,
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Speaker 1: like Dad said, it took a couple of days for
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Speaker 1: her best friend to answer me, and that's when I
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Speaker 1: was extremely concerned. So that was August seventeenth. That's when
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Speaker 1: like the alarm bells were going off, and I talked
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Speaker 1: to Dad and we agreed that I need to follow
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Speaker 1: a police report, and that's when I started making it
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Speaker 1: public on social media that she was missing. What do
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Speaker 1: you mean taking at public on social media? That's basically
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Speaker 1: like in the beginning, I would make phone calls and
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Speaker 1: I would make texts, Hey, hey have you seen Andrew.
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Speaker 1: It's all her closest friends, all my family. When her
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Speaker 1: best friend, like the person that she normally stayed with,
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Speaker 1: finally answered me, that's when I just started posting it
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Speaker 1: for everybody in the world to see it on social
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Speaker 1: media because I was desperate at that point. That was
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Speaker 1: after I made the police report. What was going through
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Speaker 1: your mind when you were making police reports and contacting
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Speaker 1: all of her friends trying to find her, Well, to me,
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Speaker 1: it's hard for you to can really comprehend the gravity
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Speaker 1: of the situation. So I was still in the mindset like,
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Speaker 1: Andrew is probably fine. She is she going to be
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Speaker 1: mad at me for calling the police and saying this
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Speaker 1: about her public I was really worried I was going
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Speaker 1: to hurt her feelings. I still thought she's probably fine, Like, like,
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Speaker 1: you just don't think that this is real and it's
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Speaker 1: really happening. What is that phenomena? To doctor Sherry Schwartz,
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Speaker 1: joining us forensic psychologist at panther Mitigation dot com, and
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Speaker 1: she's the author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and
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Speaker 1: Psychology Intersect Where our minds. For instance, when I learned
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Speaker 1: my fiance had been murdered, have been killed, I thought, Oh,
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Speaker 1: he's in a car wreck, and if I get to him,
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Speaker 1: I can save him. That's what I thought, yea, even
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Speaker 1: though they said he's gone, he's just sad. What is
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Speaker 1: a phenomena? It's a protective mechanism, Nancy. It's when it's
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Speaker 1: too much for us to bear, and so we need
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Speaker 1: to feel like we have some power, some control, because
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Speaker 1: that's what helps us maintain our equilibrium and our ability
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Speaker 1: to manage the trauma. I wish you'd take a listen
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Speaker 1: to our friend less Trent at Inside Edition. This woman
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Speaker 1: who has dedicated her life to finding miss people is
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Speaker 1: now missing herself. Hello, my name is Andrea Knabel. Thirty
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Speaker 1: seven year old Andrea Knabel was last seen two weeks ago,
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Speaker 1: leaving her sister's house in Louisville on foot in the
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Speaker 1: middle of the night. Her family says she was upset
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Speaker 1: and going through a rough patch. The more time that
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Speaker 1: guess is, the more hoorry that this isn't And maybe
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Speaker 1: that was the last time i was going to see her.
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Speaker 1: So I'm very worried. Now they are passing out flyers
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Speaker 1: in an urgent search for the mom of two boys.
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Speaker 1: I'm hoping that she didn't take a ride with someone
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Speaker 1: to go to someone else's house and never made it
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Speaker 1: and got into the wrong car. Andrea is a prominent
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Speaker 1: volunteer with the national organization Missing in America, which assists
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Speaker 1: law enforcement locating missing persons. I've looked at the map
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Speaker 1: and it's about thirteen miles away from here. This is
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Speaker 1: Andrea five months ago, looking for a missing person in Ohio.
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Speaker 1: Now she's the one the group is searching for she
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Speaker 1: is well aware of how a missing person disappeared. She
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Speaker 1: would know how to disappear if she chose to. Do
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Speaker 1: you think it's possible she staged this for the attention.
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Speaker 1: I have not ruled out anything. I find that very
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Speaker 1: difficult to believe that she would be this gone, this
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Speaker 1: long with her two boys eight and ten that she
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Speaker 1: adored in worship. Joining me right now. Special guest journalists
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Speaker 1: out of Cleveland, Ohio who has covered this case. You
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Speaker 1: can find them at Mark Oprey at dot com. Op
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Speaker 1: r e A Mark o'prey at Mark. Thank you for
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Speaker 1: being with us. Tell us night, yes, sir, or tell
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Speaker 1: us about the night that Andrea goes missing. What do
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Speaker 1: we know? We know a lot. I mean there's I
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Speaker 1: think we know they're primarily two sources regarding that that timeline.
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Speaker 1: The first one comes from detectives the local police department,
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Speaker 1: and the second one comes from mainly two private investigators,
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Speaker 1: the Leonard brothers who were get a private investigation firm
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Speaker 1: called Locators and who are a big part of Andrea's
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Speaker 1: story as well, especially Tracy Leonard. But what we know
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Speaker 1: is that around nine o'clock nine to fifty on August twelve,
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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, Andrea was dropped off at a local hospital
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Speaker 1: for what seems to be an exema issue. M she
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Speaker 1: arrives back roughly, let's say, two hours later, at what
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Speaker 1: kind of issue was it? Did you say it's it's
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Speaker 1: it's it's believed to be the common perception of what
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Speaker 1: happened is Andrea had an issue with exema. Okay, and
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Speaker 1: that's something that Mike and Eric can maybe tell you
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Speaker 1: more about. But um, this is something she batted a
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Speaker 1: lot um. But Andrew Is eventually dropped back off at
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Speaker 1: her mother's home where she was staying. Uh and on
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Speaker 1: Chiquity wrote around eleven thirty four, and I don't know
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Speaker 1: how far you want me to go into this, but
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Speaker 1: you know, she eventually leaves Chickade due to a a
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Speaker 1: sort of increasing site among her sister Sarah and her
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Speaker 1: sister's fiance, a man named Ethan Bates. I can go
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Speaker 1: through the timeline, but that's sort of where this begins.
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Speaker 1: Where she leads on foot to a sit called sin Castle,
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Speaker 1: which is where Aaron is staying. I think this is
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Speaker 1: really interesting because this is all that happening in a
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Speaker 1: neighborhood where the entire family grew up and knows extremely well.
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Speaker 1: So it's within an area. So it's within an area
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Speaker 1: that they know it's their neighborhood. Guys, take a listen
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Speaker 1: to our cut eight our friends at wa V three
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Speaker 1: while thousands vanish in the US every day. People who
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Speaker 1: know thirty seven year old Andrea Knabel say, something's wrong here.
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Speaker 1: She is an amazing person. She's a great mom, she's
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Speaker 1: a beautiful person, very personable. Here she is helping to
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Speaker 1: locate people, and she comes up missing herself. Private investigator
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Speaker 1: Tracy Leonard tells Way three News the mother of two,
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Speaker 1: who volunteers for the National search group Missing in America,
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Speaker 1: was last seen between one to two am August thirteenth,
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Speaker 1: leaving a relative's home on foot in the four thousand
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Speaker 1: block of Fincastle in Ottoman Park. Super great girl. She
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Speaker 1: helped me locate a missing teen about a year and
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Speaker 1: a half ago. Leonard and friend of thirty years Mauritia Kidd,
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Speaker 1: says Knabel had a recent round of bad luck, which
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Speaker 1: included being laid off her job and her car getting
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Speaker 1: totaled in a hit and run. Knabele used her phone
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Speaker 1: minutes after leaving the house, but hasn't been heard from since.
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Speaker 1: So right there, Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starve
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Speaker 1: and you hit series on iHeart bodybacks with Joe Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, right there, we've got her place with that
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Speaker 1: cell phone call, it's late at night and she sets off.
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Speaker 1: It's basically down the street from her home. It's her
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Speaker 1: family's neighborhood. How could she go missing just like that? Yeah,
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Speaker 1: isn't that interesting? You're in this kind of densely populated area.
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Speaker 1: This is not like you're out in the stick somewhere, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: So you've you've got her phone that's pinging off of
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Speaker 1: a local Yeah, this is Louisville, Kentucky. Yeah. Yeah, And
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Speaker 1: so you've you've got this area country beautiful. Yeah, it
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Speaker 1: absolutely is. And so you can definitively pinpoint, within a
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Speaker 1: reasonable degree of certainty, where she was last located when
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Speaker 1: that phone pinged off of that tower. My question is
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Speaker 1: is that what kind of data points do they have
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Speaker 1: after that, you know, the movement of the phone or
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Speaker 1: what she separated from her phone at some point time
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Speaker 1: where you have it in a static location and maybe
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Speaker 1: she moved off from it, or did somebody take the
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Speaker 1: phone from exactly. Mark o'prey joining me journalist on the
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Speaker 1: case from the very beginning, he has covered the story
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Speaker 1: extensively for narratively, Mark, Isn't it true? There was about
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Speaker 1: one thirty am. She had been visiting with these friends
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Speaker 1: and she was heading to her mom's house. She comes
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Speaker 1: out of the house, she uses the cell phone on
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Speaker 1: the way to her mother's on foot, and she's asking
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Speaker 1: for a ride. Isn't that true? Yeah, that happens around
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Speaker 1: So the official timeline from the police department says that
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Speaker 1: she arrived home from around one fifty four am to
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Speaker 1: her mother's Is that right? That is correct? Yes? But
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Speaker 1: what I find interesting is that, and this is where
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Speaker 1: this is why I think this case is so difficult
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Speaker 1: and so extensive, is that she arrives home to two
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Speaker 1: people who, at first, according to the private I guess
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Speaker 1: Tracy Leonard, first deny that they knew she arrived home.
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Speaker 1: Because I'm referring to Ethan Bateson and her sister Sarah,
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Speaker 1: whether that's true, not that Wait, wait, wait, let's analyze
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Speaker 1: what you just said. I find that highly interesting, curious
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Speaker 1: as well. Let's go to Mike Enable. This is Andrew's
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Speaker 1: father and Aaron her sister. Very often, I'll be in
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Speaker 1: the back of the house with my twins doing something.
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Speaker 1: We'll be in the backyard, or we'll be playing basketball
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Speaker 1: in the front yard something, and my husband will come
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Speaker 1: home from Mark and I don't even know he's home,
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Speaker 1: and he will have been home an hour and a
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Speaker 1: half before I know, and I just come in and
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Speaker 1: stumble on him. I don't find it out of the
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Speaker 1: realm of possibility that both things could be true. I
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Speaker 1: had a judge, oldest judge in the courthouse, and part
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Speaker 1: of his instructions were to the jury, it is your
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Speaker 1: duty to make all witnesses speak the truth, imputing perjury
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Speaker 1: on no one. In other words, why does this story
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Speaker 1: why do these have to be false and mutually exclusive?
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Speaker 1: Couldn't she have made it home and somebody in the
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Speaker 1: family didn't as she came in. Isn't that? Isn't that possible? Knabel?
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Speaker 1: I think it is possible, And there has been a
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Speaker 1: timeline adjudgment the bombshelf situation, and that we discovered that
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Speaker 1: she did make it back to the house, but then
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Speaker 1: she left in about two blocks away. We show her
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Speaker 1: at a different area for a certain period of time,
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Speaker 1: or at least her phone was. We did not know
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Speaker 1: she was separated from her phone. Minute. Wait a minute,
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Speaker 1: So after she got home to her mom's house, she
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Speaker 1: left again, and I did tell it to the Lolibal
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Speaker 1: Police Department as well. To Aaron Knabel, I keep hearing
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Speaker 1: about her being separated from her her phone. Is that correct?
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Speaker 1: Has her phone been found? Her phone's not found, it's
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Speaker 1: missing as well. Why do we think she was separated
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Speaker 1: from it or do we No? The thing is we
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Speaker 1: just we can only tell by her phone movements what
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Speaker 1: happened that night. So yeah, like Dad's point is basically
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Speaker 1: that it was either her with her phone or just
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Speaker 1: your phone. We don't it could be either one. Really.
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Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick joining me, a California prosecutor, author of Red Flags.
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Speaker 1: She's the host of Today with Doctor Wendy KCBQ, San Diego,
14:17
Speaker 1: and you can find her at Wendy Patrick PhD dot com.
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Speaker 1: Jump in, Wendy. Yeah, you know, boyd margin Aaron, I
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Speaker 1: know the problem is when someone goes missing time as
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Speaker 1: a v essence. I mean, Mike, you give this timeline adjustment.
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Speaker 1: That's fascinating because we live in a day and age
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Speaker 1: where we track each other through our phones. I mean,
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Speaker 1: the apps track us, We track each other, we check in,
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Speaker 1: we tag each other. So it's almost like as a
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Speaker 1: technology evolves, we may be getting more to work with.
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Speaker 1: This time goes by, and I know that that has
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Speaker 1: to be at least somewhat encouraging for you and Aaron,
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Speaker 1: because I heard a great description you gave. It's like
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Speaker 1: trying to find a moving needle in a haystack that's
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Speaker 1: stuck with me. Mike Enable, because that's exactly what this
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Speaker 1: case it must seem like for you and the family
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Speaker 1: over the course of the last three years. Guys, take
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Speaker 1: a listen to our cut five our friends at WA
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Speaker 1: three last time they saw Andrea, her father says she
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Speaker 1: seemed to be carrying the weight of the world on
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Speaker 1: her shoulders. Andrea's sister says they were close and always
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Speaker 1: there for each other. The goal of the weekend long
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Speaker 1: look is to have areas cleared so the Knnables don't
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Speaker 1: have to worry about them anymore. They've had their speculations.
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Speaker 1: I've always felt it's the most likely scenario that she
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Speaker 1: left with someone that she needs. We think she was
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Speaker 1: able to reach somebody she knew and went off into
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Speaker 1: the darkness and something offul happened. Ever since she went missing,
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Speaker 1: they've been doing everything they can to raise awareness, wanting
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Speaker 1: Andrea to see and wander back their way. The searches
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Speaker 1: on land and on social media won't stop and totally
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Speaker 1: find answers. Anyone with information is asked to contact LMPD.
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Speaker 1: To you, Aaron Cannable, this is Andrew's sister. Why do
15:56
Speaker 1: you Why is that your working theory that she got
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Speaker 1: a ride or went with some and she knew that
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Speaker 1: night after she left her mom's house. The reason I
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Speaker 1: feel that way is just because I've basically been through
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Speaker 1: this area either living around here or you know, regularly
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Speaker 1: going here to visit my mother my entire life. And
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Speaker 1: I walked through this neighborhood at any hour of the
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Speaker 1: day and night, and I've never felt unsafe. It's just
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Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense for it to be random. And
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Speaker 1: because she had friends that were not trustworthy during this
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Speaker 1: time period, of people that she cared about that did
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Speaker 1: not care about her. You know how many times Doctor
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Speaker 1: Sherry Schwartz, Forensic psychologists have we seen a wonderful person,
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Speaker 1: a great person with the wrong crowd, And that is
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Speaker 1: their undoing exactly. And from what I've read about Andrea,
16:54
Speaker 1: she's clearly very empathetic. I read you know that she's
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Speaker 1: involved in helping to find missing people. She's doing that
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Speaker 1: because she has empathy for these missing people, and that
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Speaker 1: might bring her into contact with people who aren't so
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Speaker 1: nice and empathetic. That's a really good point. I found
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Speaker 1: myself as a prosecutor riding around town for hours on end,
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Speaker 1: having breakfast, lunch, and dinner with convicted felons and dope
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Speaker 1: addicts and you name it, trumping through drughouses to find witnesses.
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Speaker 1: And you can't walk through the muck every day, even
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Speaker 1: if you were in hit boots, and not bring a
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Speaker 1: little bit home. Mike Knabele, this is Andrew's dad. What
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Speaker 1: kind of mom has she been to her two little boys? Well,
17:44
Speaker 1: Andrey was a great mother, and generally you can tell
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Speaker 1: that about how the children react to her. And they
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Speaker 1: loved her dearly and supported her, and everything she did
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Speaker 1: she made them very happy. Aaron Kinnabel, how are the
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Speaker 1: boys doing without their mom? I mean, they've got to
17:59
Speaker 1: be torn up. Yeah, they're they're very strong children, they're
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Speaker 1: very bright, so they're making it. They're they're carrying on,
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Speaker 1: but it's obvious that there's something there that they hold
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Speaker 1: a lot of greed. And I work with them when
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Speaker 1: I see them, I make sure they know that anytime
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Speaker 1: they want to share about their mother, I'm always listening
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Speaker 1: and I give them an overview of what I do
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Speaker 1: for Andrea. They've they've even helped, like Brent give me
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Speaker 1: ideas on where to hang missing posters, for example, and
18:27
Speaker 1: they've laminated posters for me. You said, they feel like
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Speaker 1: they want them to feel like they can do something too.
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Speaker 1: That is a memory and no child should have to
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Speaker 1: have that putting up missing posters for their mom. Guys,
18:39
Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut six our friends at
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Speaker 1: w d RB. A Louisville mother vanished in this weekend.
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Speaker 1: There is a new effort to find answers, and her
18:48
Speaker 1: family has continued to put flyers up around town and
18:51
Speaker 1: call in outside resources to help find her. This Saturday
18:54
Speaker 1: and Sunday, a large search will cover several areas of
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Speaker 1: the city. Twelve cadaver service dog and handlers from eleven
19:01
Speaker 1: different states will search in about a dozen areas. Knabel's
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Speaker 1: family is hopeful this will provide them with some information.
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Speaker 1: We have not given up hope. Were we need America,
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Speaker 1: We realize that, but there's places we want to rule out,
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Speaker 1: so we can just leave them alone and go on
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Speaker 1: to the next thing. Well, you think you've seen Andrea somewhere,
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Speaker 1: Call police, won't you please help us find this missing
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Speaker 1: mother of two who's devoted so much time to helping
19:27
Speaker 1: other people. Where is Andrew Knabel? You can go online
19:32
Speaker 1: to where is Andrew Knabel a go fund me or
19:35
Speaker 1: dial five zero two five seven four seven one two zero.
19:41
Speaker 1: We pray for justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace eighteen
20:03
Speaker 1: long years ago, a beautiful young woman, It goes missing,
20:08
Speaker 1: but a stunning discovery, a so called cold case heats
20:15
Speaker 1: up in a bizarre twist. You know, very often we
20:21
Speaker 1: refer to cold cases. And in all the years that
20:24
Speaker 1: I prosecuted, there were files in the back of my
20:28
Speaker 1: drawer that I didn't have time to get to, files
20:34
Speaker 1: that sat there and sat there and sat there waiting
20:38
Speaker 1: for a resolution, and they drove me crazy. As I'm
20:41
Speaker 1: talking about it, I can still see them in my mind.
20:44
Speaker 1: I can see them at the back of the filing cabinet,
20:48
Speaker 1: and I would wonder is there ever going to be
20:50
Speaker 1: a time that I can work these and try to
20:54
Speaker 1: heat up cold cases, and then sometimes a twist of
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Speaker 1: fate he eats those cases up for us. Again, this
21:05
Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. Take a
21:08
Speaker 1: listen to investigative report with crime online dot com Dave mac.
21:12
Speaker 1: A woman's body was found in a shallow grave on
21:15
Speaker 1: the Oakland Army Base. The District Attorney's Office says a
21:18
Speaker 1: work crew discovered an uncovered human body wrapped in tarps
21:22
Speaker 1: in a shallow grave near Seventh and Maritime Streets. An
21:25
Speaker 1: autopsy reports positively identified the body as Cynthia Linda Alonso,
21:31
Speaker 1: according to a news release from the Alameda County District
21:34
Speaker 1: Attorney's Office, Syntha Linda Alonzo went missing on Thanksgiving November
21:39
Speaker 1: twenty fourth, two thousand and four. She was last seen
21:43
Speaker 1: heading to her mother's house for a holiday dinner, but
21:45
Speaker 1: never arrived. Now, approximately eighteen years after her disappearance and murder,
21:50
Speaker 1: her body has been positively identified wrapped in tarps in
21:55
Speaker 1: a shallow grave. How the hay was that not? Discoverer?
22:00
Speaker 1: First of all, let me introduce you an all star panel.
22:03
Speaker 1: First of all veteran trial lawyer joining me out of
22:06
Speaker 1: South Carolina, Susan E. Williams. You can find her at
22:10
Speaker 1: s Williams dash Law dot net. Renowned psychologists joining us
22:14
Speaker 1: out of Manhattan. Karen Start. You can find her at
22:17
Speaker 1: Karen Start dot com. That's Karen with a See Joseph
22:20
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
22:25
Speaker 1: Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a new
22:28
Speaker 1: series Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan on iHeart. But
22:32
Speaker 1: first to a special guest joining us. Senior reporter with
22:37
Speaker 1: our favorite newspaper, The New York Post, Dana Kennedy, and
22:42
Speaker 1: you can find her at Dana Kennedy dot com. Dana,
22:44
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Tell me about the
22:47
Speaker 1: discovery of the body. Well turns up at a work
22:50
Speaker 1: crew found Linda Alonto's body all wrapped up in tarps
22:54
Speaker 1: at the Oakland Army Base. And it was kind of
22:57
Speaker 1: a off the track kind of area. But it was
23:00
Speaker 1: also strange because the police had been told years ago
23:04
Speaker 1: it was probably in that area. It was just really
23:07
Speaker 1: a coincidental happenstance. A bunch of you know, construction guys
23:11
Speaker 1: found the body. You know that has happened before on
23:15
Speaker 1: other occasions. Where was the body discovered? I understand that
23:21
Speaker 1: it was in West Oakland, California. What is that just
23:25
Speaker 1: outside of Oakland? Yeah, it's just outside of Oakland, on
23:28
Speaker 1: the actual Oakland Army Base. And it was just an
23:32
Speaker 1: everyday work crew, not not police, not detectives, who just
23:36
Speaker 1: happened to defind her body. It was in a very
23:39
Speaker 1: shallow grave, wrapped in tarp. You know it Just Scot
23:42
Speaker 1: Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, J Scott,
23:47
Speaker 1: I've got to u later. Karen's talking about the shock
23:49
Speaker 1: of discovering a dead body and how literally people have
23:53
Speaker 1: tripped over dead bodies. It brings to mind. Just recently
23:59
Speaker 1: we cover the of the Queen's mom of two or
24:02
Speaker 1: Sawya Gail, whose body had been folded up into her
24:07
Speaker 1: son's hockey bag and then dragged about a half a
24:11
Speaker 1: mile from their home, and a guy out walking his
24:14
Speaker 1: dog just literally came upon a dead body. It happens
24:21
Speaker 1: quite often. Then. We had a high school teacher just
24:23
Speaker 1: recently who went for a walk at lunchtime never came back.
24:27
Speaker 1: Her body was just found by someone out for a
24:31
Speaker 1: walk in the same park type area. It happens so often,
24:37
Speaker 1: much more often than we think. But what I don't get,
24:40
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan is if this is a shallow grave,
24:45
Speaker 1: why didn't nobody see that or notice for all these years?
24:49
Speaker 1: Eighteen years? Yeah, to Dana's point, you know, this is
24:55
Speaker 1: a kind of off the beaten track, right, and so
24:58
Speaker 1: you're not necessarily going to see it in Also after
25:00
Speaker 1: eighteen years, this is what we refer to in forensics
25:03
Speaker 1: as a clandestine burial after eighteen years. The landscape what
25:09
Speaker 1: we refer to as the topography, and also taffonomy is
25:14
Speaker 1: another term we use in forensics. Last one, Yeah, taffonomy
25:19
Speaker 1: as well. And taffonomy. Yeah, it's ta PHO n y
25:26
Speaker 1: r O M y uh. The ground actually changes the ground.
25:30
Speaker 1: People think their ground beneath them is static and it's not.
25:34
Speaker 1: It's always changing at all times. And so that's a
25:38
Speaker 1: problem um for investigators because you're as as the short
25:42
Speaker 1: soul shifts. Think about it's very very active ground out
25:46
Speaker 1: there in Frisco, isn't it in that area. You know,
25:48
Speaker 1: you've got all kinds of shifting that takes takes place.
25:51
Speaker 1: Then you have foliage that grows over this area. The
25:54
Speaker 1: only thing that would really stand out is maybe a
25:56
Speaker 1: depressed area that again can potentially be backfilled by rain
26:01
Speaker 1: that washed her in there. So it's not something you're
26:03
Speaker 1: necessarily going to see at first clamps. Okay, that makes
26:08
Speaker 1: a lot more sense to me. And back to Dana Kennedy,
26:10
Speaker 1: senior reporter with a New York Post. Was the construction
26:13
Speaker 1: crew digging? Is that how they found her? They were
26:16
Speaker 1: just doing sort of as far as they know, Nancy,
26:19
Speaker 1: they were just doing some general maintenance stuff. They weren't
26:23
Speaker 1: even doing anything specific. It was just kind of a
26:25
Speaker 1: workaday assignments, you know. It also brings up the specter
26:30
Speaker 1: of the top mom Casey Anthony case where a government
26:35
Speaker 1: worker was out doing his job and he noticed on
26:38
Speaker 1: more than one occasion something he thought was odd in
26:41
Speaker 1: a wooded area, and he called police several times to
26:44
Speaker 1: come out and look at it. It was the body
26:47
Speaker 1: of two year old Kelly Anthony. So here you've got
26:52
Speaker 1: construction workers, much like the other examples I've given you,
26:56
Speaker 1: happening upon a dead body. At that point, Scott Morgan,
27:01
Speaker 1: she's wrapped in tarps, So what exactly would the construction
27:06
Speaker 1: workers have encountered. Well, I can almost tell you precisely
27:11
Speaker 1: what they saw. They saw an edge of fabric sticking
27:14
Speaker 1: up out of the ground. I would imagine that's what
27:16
Speaker 1: first grasp them. And it's not just a tarp, it's
27:20
Speaker 1: it's tarps. You know, I'm not correcting you. I'm just
27:23
Speaker 1: saying I keep reading that over and over again. So
27:25
Speaker 1: that means that there's some preparation that went into this.
27:28
Speaker 1: Somebody showed up in order to deposit this body. I mean,
27:32
Speaker 1: obviously she didn't wrap herself up, but to you know,
27:35
Speaker 1: kind of secure the body. And for us as investigators,
27:38
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, Nancy, that far down range, that's
27:41
Speaker 1: jackpot for us because that means that even though the
27:44
Speaker 1: body is breaking down and decomposing all that stuff that
27:46
Speaker 1: we talked about all the time, guess what's happening. Everything
27:50
Speaker 1: is remaining contained within that tarp. So if you have
27:53
Speaker 1: something that's really really robust, as far as that fabric
27:58
Speaker 1: that that holds that holds that fabric that tarped together,
28:02
Speaker 1: there's going to be tremendous containment in this environment. So
28:05
Speaker 1: you have to be real, real careful is you're kind
28:07
Speaker 1: of excavating around this thing. The only thing that could
28:10
Speaker 1: go wrong. I mean, God bless the construction workers. They
28:13
Speaker 1: didn't know what they were into. But if they dug
28:14
Speaker 1: it or pierced the tarp in any way, that could
28:17
Speaker 1: compromise the evidence. But it's still self contained in that
28:19
Speaker 1: little depressed area. You know, it's interesting. I don't know
28:24
Speaker 1: if you guys have looked at the scene. It's right
28:28
Speaker 1: beside a street. It's not out and a densely wooded
28:32
Speaker 1: I'm looking at it right now, a murder of victim's
28:36
Speaker 1: body found eighteen years after the crime. I'm looking right
28:42
Speaker 1: at the aerial view from sky seven ABC, and it's
28:49
Speaker 1: under it's beside a tree, but it is no more
28:52
Speaker 1: than forty ft maybe fifty feet off of a street.
28:58
Speaker 1: And that tells me a lot about the killer. Why
29:03
Speaker 1: would the killer deposit the body bury the body that
29:07
Speaker 1: close to a street. Karen Start NEWRK psychologists joining us
29:10
Speaker 1: from Manhattan today at Karen Start dot com. The shock
29:14
Speaker 1: of discovering a dead body or skeletal remains, it's something
29:19
Speaker 1: you never get over. I was just thinking that Nancy,
29:23
Speaker 1: that it's not the same as hearing about it or
29:27
Speaker 1: seeing about it on television or a movie screen. When
29:30
Speaker 1: you encounter a dead body, it's usually your first experience
29:36
Speaker 1: and you're totally unprepared for it, and if there's just
29:41
Speaker 1: nothing like it, if you're emotionally, you kind of go
29:46
Speaker 1: into shock because you just don't think of when you're
29:51
Speaker 1: taking a walk, coming across somebody who's dead versus bumping
29:56
Speaker 1: into someone who's alive. That's really all because I think
29:59
Speaker 1: about it a lot. Go ahead, Yeah, yeah, I guess
30:04
Speaker 1: because I deal with finding dead bodies all the time.
30:07
Speaker 1: You're exposed to it, right, So I think that in
30:10
Speaker 1: my mind that's perfectly. I could absolutely happen if I
30:13
Speaker 1: take the twizz or the walk, But I understand that
30:17
Speaker 1: that's not normal. So Susan E. Williams joining me South
30:20
Speaker 1: Carolina Criminal Defenses or any former prosecutor, have you ever
30:23
Speaker 1: defended or prosecuted a case where you had a Jane
30:27
Speaker 1: Doe you didn't know who the dead person was. I haven't,
30:31
Speaker 1: But I suspect that the Thanksgiving from two thousand and
30:37
Speaker 1: four for Lindo Lonzo's family will be vastly different than
30:42
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving this year twenty twenty two, now that the body
30:46
Speaker 1: of their mother has been found after all these years,
30:49
Speaker 1: eighteen years they've been waiting, and it's some good closure
30:53
Speaker 1: for them, you know. I'm thinking back on a case,
30:57
Speaker 1: one of the cases I prosecuted where the victim to Jando.
31:01
Speaker 1: The defendant, Brian Barrell Coleman I think was his name,
31:11
Speaker 1: still remains a Jando to this day. And it's very,
31:15
Speaker 1: very hard to find a killer when you don't know
31:19
Speaker 1: who your victim is because you can't figure out, oh, well,
31:24
Speaker 1: who was she dating, who was she married to, who
31:26
Speaker 1: was she with the night's disappeared? Do you don't know
31:28
Speaker 1: who she is? It's a whole another layer of complexity.
31:34
Speaker 1: So to you, Dana Kennedy, a senior reporter in New
31:37
Speaker 1: York Post, how did they go about identifying Linda or
31:41
Speaker 1: do we know? We know a little bit. First of all,
31:45
Speaker 1: we know that one of her kids was actually called
31:48
Speaker 1: down to the crime team, which is amazing because obviously,
31:50
Speaker 1: after all those years, I don't know what there would
31:53
Speaker 1: have been to identify. But the Alameda County Corners Office
31:59
Speaker 1: performed and actual autopsy to confirm that the body was hurt,
32:03
Speaker 1: and that autopsy was on ME twelve, and that was
32:05
Speaker 1: the way they made the final final decision. Dana Kennedy,
32:09
Speaker 1: As usually you always tell me something I don't know.
32:12
Speaker 1: That's really interesting that when they found this body, a
32:15
Speaker 1: woman wrapped in tarps. Did you hear that? As Joe Scott,
32:19
Speaker 1: thank you for telling me that they call her son
32:25
Speaker 1: now a grown man because eighteen years have passed with
32:28
Speaker 1: him growing up without a mother. So they knew there
32:32
Speaker 1: was something about the body that identified her, and they
32:36
Speaker 1: called her son when the body was found. Is that
32:38
Speaker 1: what you said, Dana Kennedy? Yes, wow, So Joe Scott,
32:43
Speaker 1: what could it have been? And how do you then
32:45
Speaker 1: id the body definitively because there's not going to be
32:49
Speaker 1: She's totally skeletonized in eighteen years. Yeah. In the world
32:53
Speaker 1: that we're in now, even when you have the fresh dead,
32:56
Speaker 1: as we refer to them, you were you wouldn't you
33:00
Speaker 1: rarely put families something the grocery store, Well, you rarely
33:03
Speaker 1: put family members in their presence. You do it now
33:06
Speaker 1: electronically where you're looking at images and all that sort
33:09
Speaker 1: of thing. But now you know, if we're talking about
33:11
Speaker 1: a body that's this far down range and you're talking,
33:14
Speaker 1: you've mentioned the words skeletonization, and that's key here. So
33:18
Speaker 1: I have to think that it might be an identifier
33:21
Speaker 1: like a piece of jewelry perhaps, or maybe even a
33:24
Speaker 1: bit of clothing. But this is key here, I think
33:27
Speaker 1: because they knew enough. They knew enough at this point
33:30
Speaker 1: in time to reach out to the family. So that
33:33
Speaker 1: means that the investigators already had connectivity in this case.
33:36
Speaker 1: They knew which direction they were moving in. It's not
33:39
Speaker 1: like they just called a random person and told them
33:41
Speaker 1: to come down there. They called her family, So that
33:43
Speaker 1: means they had information from Jump Street that drew the
33:46
Speaker 1: family down there, and they just wanted to get eyes
33:49
Speaker 1: on to see if we're heading in the right direction
33:51
Speaker 1: at that point time. Time stories with Nancy Grace. So
34:10
Speaker 1: in order to solve the mystery what happened to this mom,
34:16
Speaker 1: Linda Alonso, We've got to know about the night she
34:21
Speaker 1: goes missing. Take a listen to Dave Matt Crime Online.
34:24
Speaker 1: When Alonso didn't show up for Thanksgiving, Teresa Jones started
34:28
Speaker 1: her own investigation. Jones began looking around the home for clues.
34:32
Speaker 1: Did Alonso leave to run errands or did she just
34:35
Speaker 1: leave with no warning? All of Alonzo's personal belongings were
34:39
Speaker 1: still in the home, her makeup debit card, social security card,
34:43
Speaker 1: identification and other personal items all still in place. Did
34:48
Speaker 1: you hear that Karen's tark all of her personal items
34:51
Speaker 1: were still in the home? Makeup, debit card, social security card, ID,
34:56
Speaker 1: all our personal items were there and even in place.
34:59
Speaker 1: What is that tell you, Karen? Oh, it tells me
35:02
Speaker 1: that she intended to come back. That it wasn't like
35:06
Speaker 1: she was going to be running away or making any
35:09
Speaker 1: decision to leave, because who would go a female, especially
35:14
Speaker 1: without her purse, her identity, her makeup, whatever was in
35:19
Speaker 1: the bag. You just instinctively take that with you. Well,
35:23
Speaker 1: I think that's a little stereotypical, Karen starm. I've never
35:27
Speaker 1: got to change to you of that. You know, I
35:29
Speaker 1: don't carry upon The last thing I'm going to do
35:31
Speaker 1: is carrying around a bag full of makeup dropping through
35:35
Speaker 1: housing projects. To have your hands free at all time,
35:39
Speaker 1: all times. So, but yes, I agree with you on
35:42
Speaker 1: the other items. Absolutely agree with you. It seems as
35:45
Speaker 1: if she would have been coming back if all her
35:48
Speaker 1: stuff was still there. Okay, what exactly are we talking about?
35:53
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut three from Crime Online.
35:55
Speaker 1: When in search of Alonzo's home didn't turn up anything
35:58
Speaker 1: out of the ordinary. Linda's reached out to Eric Mora.
36:02
Speaker 1: He said that he hadn't seen his girlfriend for at
36:04
Speaker 1: least two weeks. Little else was said, but the daughters
36:08
Speaker 1: believed there was cause for concern. A rug was missing
36:11
Speaker 1: from Maura's bedroom, and Maura then changed his story, saying
36:15
Speaker 1: he had taken Alonso to the store just the week before.
36:18
Speaker 1: And then neighbors say Alonzo was seen getting into a
36:21
Speaker 1: car with Moura on Thanksgiving Day for the drive to
36:25
Speaker 1: Alonzo's mother's home. A rug, A rug, A rug missing
36:30
Speaker 1: from the home. First of all, the boyfriend says he
36:33
Speaker 1: hasn't seen her for two weeks, she hasn't went home,
36:36
Speaker 1: But then why's all our stuff there? And then a
36:40
Speaker 1: rug is missing. Dana Kennedy, senior reporter at New York Post.
36:45
Speaker 1: Do I have to say, Durst, Robert Durst, remember when
36:53
Speaker 1: his wife went missing? A rug was missing from the home.
36:57
Speaker 1: Do you remember that? Yes? Yeah, Oh, we know what
37:00
Speaker 1: people do with rugs. They wrap up a body. And okay,
37:04
Speaker 1: there's so many rug associations. Then let me just say,
37:07
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Powell. Remember when his wife, Susan Powell went missing?
37:13
Speaker 1: He later killed murdered both of his little boys, by
37:16
Speaker 1: the way, but when their mom, Susan Powell, went missing,
37:20
Speaker 1: cops came in. There was a rug missing, and there
37:25
Speaker 1: was a fan. It was freezing tempts outside, and there
37:28
Speaker 1: was a fan with the windows open, blowing on carpet
37:31
Speaker 1: and trying to dry out the house. And mommy's missing.
37:36
Speaker 1: You know, when the rug is missing, you know you
37:38
Speaker 1: might as well go ahead and put handcuffs on the guy.
37:40
Speaker 1: That's how I feel. I mean, Dana Kennedy, when you
37:42
Speaker 1: hear a rug is missing, does the hair on the
37:45
Speaker 1: back of your neck just stand up? Yeah, you hear
37:47
Speaker 1: a rug missing, and you can just sort of see
37:49
Speaker 1: in your own mind's eye what probably was done with
37:52
Speaker 1: that rug. It was used to wrap a body. So
37:54
Speaker 1: Dana Kennedy joining me from New York Post. Once cops
37:58
Speaker 1: realize the rug is gone but all of her personal
38:03
Speaker 1: items are still there, what happens the cops. Definitely Nancy
38:08
Speaker 1: knew something was up, but rug was missing. And not
38:10
Speaker 1: only that, this guy Mora was constantly shaky and talking
38:16
Speaker 1: too fast and a nervous wreck. Every time cops went
38:18
Speaker 1: to see him. He started doing this weird home construction
38:21
Speaker 1: like standing floors to get rid of blood. The guy
38:25
Speaker 1: you know, was radiating that he was a suspect, but
38:28
Speaker 1: they didn't have a smoking gun. They had nobody, so
38:31
Speaker 1: it really took a long time to finally nail him.
38:33
Speaker 1: Susan A. Williams joining me, veteran trial lawyer out of
38:36
Speaker 1: South Carolina, former prosecutor, now defense lawyer. You know, Susan,
38:41
Speaker 1: how much I love it when the target gets auntsy,
38:46
Speaker 1: like Dana Kennedy is describing and talks too fast and
38:50
Speaker 1: looks shaky as she described. I love it. That's what
38:54
Speaker 1: I like to look with straight and I keep asking
38:56
Speaker 1: them questions. You know, he hits a really bizarre behavior
38:59
Speaker 1: after Linda's murder, the standing of the floors, there were
39:04
Speaker 1: some cleaning agents that were using the walls of the residence.
39:08
Speaker 1: He gave police of different lots of different stories, and
39:12
Speaker 1: he just left town after the case moved from a
39:15
Speaker 1: missing person to a homicide. So long story short, says
39:19
Speaker 1: in Williams. He acts shaky, nervous, has an agitated voice pattern,
39:26
Speaker 1: and then amazingly starts home improvements, including sanding and cleaning.
39:32
Speaker 1: You know, Jess got Morgan. How often do we see
39:35
Speaker 1: a guy turned into a complete neat freak after his
39:38
Speaker 1: wife or girlfriend goes missing. Yeah, it's a pattern that
39:42
Speaker 1: they got to do the laundry, they got them the floors.
39:46
Speaker 1: This case, they had to sand the floors. Yeah, Lord,
39:49
Speaker 1: have mercy. I don't know that I've ever heard of
39:51
Speaker 1: a case where somebody was sanding the floors. I've heard
39:53
Speaker 1: a lot about bleach. I've heard a lot about scrubbing,
39:55
Speaker 1: but this is this is kind of an outlier for me.
39:58
Speaker 1: But yeah, they go to extreme many times. And you know,
40:01
Speaker 1: one of the things you can do to trace this
40:03
Speaker 1: is go out and see what they're purchasing. You know,
40:06
Speaker 1: is it something that's outside of the norm of what
40:08
Speaker 1: they would normally do. And in this particular case, it
40:11
Speaker 1: sounds like the guy invested in sandpaper. Nancy. Guys, take
40:14
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut five from Crime Online's Dave mac.
40:18
Speaker 1: It was more as Home that solidified the police theory
40:21
Speaker 1: that Moura had killed his girlfriend, Linda Alonzo, after discovering
40:26
Speaker 1: the carpet had been removed from his car. Police search
40:29
Speaker 1: Eric Moore's home. Bloodstains matching both Mora and Alonso are
40:33
Speaker 1: found throughout, but especially in the bedroom. Bloodstains were found
40:37
Speaker 1: on the wall, and there was evidence that someone had
40:39
Speaker 1: tried to clean it up. Investigators also noted that Mara
40:43
Speaker 1: had unevenly sanded the bedroom and living room floors. Note
40:47
Speaker 1: to self, after I murdered Dave and my husband, stand
40:51
Speaker 1: down the floors to get rid of all the evidence.
40:54
Speaker 1: I mean, what did he need to do? Take out
40:56
Speaker 1: a billboard on Third Avenue Dana Kennedy that says I
41:01
Speaker 1: murdered Linda. Really well, the cleaning supplies the sanding. What
41:06
Speaker 1: guy have you seen? I mean, have you ever seen
41:09
Speaker 1: any boyfriend or husband in your life get four h
41:13
Speaker 1: nine or the equivalent and start cleaning the walls, because
41:17
Speaker 1: I've never seen that in my life. I have never
41:21
Speaker 1: I have never seen anyone like that cleaning the walls,
41:23
Speaker 1: except you know, in a situation where it was very
41:26
Speaker 1: suspicious and among other things, just so you know, when
41:29
Speaker 1: the cops were searching the vehicles if this guy owned Mara,
41:33
Speaker 1: they found a ten inch blade with a leather sheet
41:36
Speaker 1: as well as a bag for counting money on it,
41:39
Speaker 1: so they knew they knew this guy was in deep
41:42
Speaker 1: and he was a bit of a Keystone cop. When
41:44
Speaker 1: I came to cleaning up the murder because there was
41:46
Speaker 1: still blood everywhere despite his efforts to sand and to
41:49
Speaker 1: clean and pick up bits of carpeting. So you know,
41:52
Speaker 1: he wasn't going to win any brain trust. Man, you're
41:55
Speaker 1: not kidding about that, Okay, take a listen to our cut.
41:58
Speaker 1: Six two and a half years after Alonzo went missing,
42:01
Speaker 1: Eric Mora was charged with Linda Alonso's murder. Mora was
42:05
Speaker 1: convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to fifteen years
42:08
Speaker 1: to life behind bars. Four years later, the conviction was
42:11
Speaker 1: overturned in appeals court. New evidence, however, made it possible
42:15
Speaker 1: for police to refile charges against Mora. An informant told
42:19
Speaker 1: police that Maura admitted to him that he'd beaten Linda
42:22
Speaker 1: to death with a hammer. Her body was then reportedly dismembered,
42:25
Speaker 1: wrapped in a tarp, and loaded into Maura's car. The
42:28
Speaker 1: informant said the body was then dumped in the water
42:30
Speaker 1: somewhere in California. One of Moura's cellmates also testified that
42:34
Speaker 1: Mara tried to bribe him with a thousand dollars into
42:37
Speaker 1: telling cops that he was with Mora when Linda disappeared,
42:40
Speaker 1: and that he'd seen Linda after Thanksgiving the cellmate did
42:43
Speaker 1: not accept the offer. A year later, Mora confessed Wow,
42:49
Speaker 1: but in the intram eighteen years drag it by take
42:55
Speaker 1: a less an hour cut seven. Despite exhaustive searches, Cynthia
43:00
Speaker 1: Linda Alonzo's body was not found for over eighteen years.
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Speaker 1: After More confessed to killing Alonzo, he provided a general
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Speaker 1: location of her buried body, but the exact location was
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Speaker 1: never found until construction workers uncovered a shallow grave while
43:15
Speaker 1: working on the streets of the Oakland Army Base. The
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Speaker 1: Alameda County Corners Office conducted an autopsy and confirmed it
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Speaker 1: was Alonzo's body. Eighteen years, these children went without their mother.
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Speaker 1: Now finally she has been found and may she rest
43:32
Speaker 1: in peace. Nancy Grace Crim's toy sign him off advisement