Latest / Curiously Guided Podcast / Ep.46 | An Evolved Approach to Copywriting: How to Stand Out in a Saturated Online Market, with Copywriter, Rachel Greiman

Transcript

Ep.46 | An Evolved Approach to Copywriting: How to Stand Out in a Saturated Online Market, with Copywriter, Rachel Greiman · Curiously Guided Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the Curiously Guided Podcast, the place for intuitive business owners and curious minds.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're your hosts, Mariah and Shay.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: And in this episode, we got to talk with Rachel Griman from Green Chair Stories.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, this conversation was really fun for me because I feel like being in the online space so long, like being a website designer previously and an SEO strategist, it's like I've always overlooked copywriting to be honest, like especially for my own business.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've never hired a copywriter or anything like that.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like I really kind of went into this episode not knowing what to expect, not knowing how the importance or the perspective was extremely powerful.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: And like the way that Rachel describes, I mean, not only copywriting, but like her story is very, very interesting and very impactful.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: But just the information that she gives about copywriting and making it fun, and like just this more evolved approach to it just made me really appreciate it on a whole new level.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, what really stuck out to me about this episode is what you said.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: I've always thought, like, oh, I'm a decent writer.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of wrote off copywriting and getting professional help with it.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, there's only so far you can go when you're talking about yourself.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes it's really difficult to see the bigger picture, like we talk about when you're inside your own world.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, not only is Rachel an excellent copywriter, she's also a really smart business owner.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things I was really impressed with was how, like her story of um building a business and pivoting and paying attention to the market and what's profitable and how to create a business that not only makes money and supports her and her family, but also works for her as a human.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_02: So there this episode's a bit two-folded.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, yes, we're talking about copywriting, but we're also talking about how to navigate running a business and when is the right time to pivot and grow and change your services.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Rachel also has a really, we're calling it like a modern or evolved approach on copywriting.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you've been in the marketing world for a while, you know that sometimes when you get into writing a sales page, some of the stuff can feel a bit like sleazy or icky, or you know, you're twisting the knife and their pain points.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: And Rachel gives a really great way to reframe all that and to really focus in on what's important and how to write something that actually builds trust with a modern consumer.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: So with that, um, I'm gonna read about Rachel's bio and then we'll dive right in.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Rachel Griman is a copywriter and documentary, family photographer in Denver, Colorado.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: She owns Green Chair Stories, a copywriting collective committed to writing websites that get photographers booked.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: She believes cookies are perfectly acceptable breakfast food.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: And as long as you eat a salad later, it's all good.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: She lives with her giant dog, an 80-pound burn bernadoodle named Bernadette, her giant husband, a six foot-six man named Travis, and her currently little, but probably soon to be giant babies in a bungalow in the city.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's probably one of the best bios we've ever read.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: And with that, let's dive in.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so we have Rachel Griman here of Green Chair Stories.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: She's a copywriter, and obviously, you know, in her bio, you guys got a spiel about like who she is and kind of what she does.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: But before we dive into like the nitty gritty depths of like wherever this conversation is gonna go, I kind of am interested to know, like Green Chair Stories, Rachel.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: How did you choose that name?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: It seems a little random on my perspective, but from glancing at your website, I think you have a pretty cool story about it.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just share that with us?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_04: And as you're saying that, I'm like, I probably should have a highlight on Instagram that talks about this.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: So people know the reason behind the name.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you for the idea already.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it is random, but it is grounded in reality.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_04: So I used to work in a nonprofit.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: I was the full-time writer and photographer there back in 2012, 10 years ago.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: And um it was a massive nonprofit here in Denver.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: And we it we served um people experiencing homelessness.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_04: And so we got a lot of furniture donated um to families experiencing homelessness, and that's how we furnished all the office buildings.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we weren't buying new, we were just furnishing our offices with stuff we found that was donated.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_04: And so on my first day, I went into the big warehouse full of furniture, and they're like, okay, pick out a chair, pick out a desk, pick out a lamp.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, okay.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: And in the corner, I saw this like huge velvet green chair.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, oh my gosh, that's the one.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_04: Cause I knew that I was going to be interviewing a ton of people for this job.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: My whole job was writing and photographing stories.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: So I wanted to have a really comfortable, cozy, warm, welcoming setting in my office.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_04: And so that was the chair that sat across from my desk that other people would sit in when they came.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I started Green Chair Stories, my company, while I was working full-time there and did both for a little while.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so the name came from the fact that I interviewed hundreds of people while I was there.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_04: And from the CEO down to like my girlfriends that I met working there, down to, you know, somebody that had just like been sober for four days and staying at our homeless shelter, would sit in the chair and they would tell me these like crazy stories or really intimate stories or really personal ones.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like my one friend broke off an engagement while we were there.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_04: Like I just heard all of these really personal, intimate details.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it felt like such a huge honor to be the person that they were relaying that to.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_04: And so I realized, you know, at first Green Share Stories was a family photography company and it evolved to what it is now.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_04: So I realized that when I photographed people, I wanted to have that same vibe.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted people to bring themselves exactly who they were.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: And it sounds so cheesy coming out of my mouth.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_04: But I was a documentary family photographer.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't pose anyone, so I was in their homes.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_04: So I really wanted to see the personal moments, the tantrums from the toddlers, you know, parents getting a little snippy with each other.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_04: I wanted to create that environment of comfort that they could be themselves, so I could really document their lives in a real authentic way.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_04: So that is the reason that I came up with the name Green Chair Stories.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like holy shit, you have the depth there.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And like the fact that it also is like a parallel between the photography world and the copywriting world, I think is really cool because like when we think about stories, I feel like so often we do think about the actual writing of them and like the copywriting and things, but it's like, but really, you do tell stories through photography and stuff like that.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: What made you go from like photography and then start focusing more into copywriting?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_04: So I was a photojournalism major in college.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_04: So writing and photos always went together for me.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_04: They were always complemented by one another.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I was a copywriter in the nonprofit world, you know, for 10 years by the time I left completely.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I photographed there too.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_04: So when I started Green Chair Stories, I was like, okay, I'm gonna do the photo thing.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna focus on this because I had a lot of um mentors and friends, and I was like really committed to making it work.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_04: But then the longer I did it, the more I realized like the world did not need me to be a full-time family photographer.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_04: My circle needed help with writing.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of even I've written for all my mentors now because it's like they could teach me everything they wanted to about photos, but at the end of the day, they had no idea what words to put on their website.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_04: And it's really interesting because in 2014, when I started Green Chair Stories, I felt like there's this really big shift from the gallery website for photographers.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like you would just go and it was a static gallery with the navigation at the top and there were no words.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_04: And that's really when the shift started happening to these more long-form scrolling websites that are the standard now.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_04: So when people started seeing these scrolling websites, they're like, well, how do I know what to put on there?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_04: So I got to help my community in a very unique way.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_04: And it was for free.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_04: I was just helping out in Facebook groups for a while, and then I started charging, and then I was like, okay, I need to formalize this process because it's getting out of control.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_04: And then I would say by like 2017, it was like, okay, this is now a 50-50 arm of my business.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_04: And by 2019, it was like, okay, now I'm mostly a copywriter at this point.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_04: And then 2020 happened, and I was six months pregnant when the pandemic hit, and I was like, okay, well, I guess I'm not going into people's homes anytime soon.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_04: So I am a copywriter only now.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_04: So I still shoot occasionally, but I don't advertise it at all.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's crazy.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking about how you must have been feeling as the pandemic hit.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, glad I pivoted my business and diversified, right?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_04: And it was like, so my husband and I spent four months in Kenya in 2017.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_04: And that is when we were volunteering.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: So we weren't making any money.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: And that was when I really was like, okay, I'm not shooting families here.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm going to do some copy because I can do that across the ocean, no big deal.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: So that's when I really formalized the process that we have now.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_04: And that's when I really realized, and then I got pregnant while I was there with my first daughter.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, oh, this is a great situation for somebody that's about to give birth because you have to do everything in person if you're a photographer.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: So 2017 was really the pivotal point in my business of diversifying.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it was initially for kid reasons, and then it was for pandemic reasons, and now it's for both reasons.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that this is so interesting.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Also, I guess I'm I kind of look at the the photographer niche specifically from an SEO perspective, obviously.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that like my photographer people, I love you guys.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where you're learning SEO advice.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, I feel like that specific niche does need extra help with copywriting because there's most of the time they get into photography as like a hobby or like they start exploring it, realize how much they love it, then they see how much money that they can make and they love doing it and providing the visuals.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like they're so visual first focused.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: That I think that having somebody that understands not only the photography side and just like you know, the importance of the visuals, but also somebody that understands the copywriting side of like, listen, you take great pictures, but like from an SEO perspective, we need to give the website some kind of content, a for the users to read to get to know your story, why they want to choose you, also for the Google bots.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can't have a homepage with literally just a gallery on it scrolling because to Google that looks like a blank page, and they're just like, we're not gonna show you any on any page because it's like, I don't even know what you focus on.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that is so needed, especially in the photography world.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess my my question here is like, how do you explain copywriting and the importance to people that maybe don't from the outside or like understand the importance of copywriting?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because like to some people, it's literally just like, I don't know, it's words, people don't even read those words.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like an about page, people don't read that.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, how how do you explain copywriting in a way that's like I guess understandable for people that don't see the importance of it from the from the get-go?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_04: Well, usually if someone's following me or in my orbit, it's because they know something isn't working, but they don't really know what it is, you know, because I'll talk about more than copy, but if someone's listening to me, they've already acknowledged there's a problem somewhere.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_04: And the thing that you'll hear me say over and over and over again, and I won't shut up about it, is your photos won't sell you.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_04: They just won't.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_04: There's way too many people that can take a beautiful photo at this point.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: And unfortunately, I think that really appeals to women more than men because men instantly write me off when they hear me say that because they're like, well, you haven't seen mine.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_04: And uh I think women are more like, yeah, you're right.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_04: I am terrible, aren't I?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_04: I've got to have another, you know, I have to have another way to sell myself.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't mean it that way, but I do think that the way I talk about this, I attract women, which is fine.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: I would never write for a man ever again if I didn't have to, you know, we have such we have such a small percentage of men that come to us because we're an all-female team.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_04: It just doesn't happen.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_04: But I do think people once they accept that their market is so saturated and that people have so many options, and especially if you want to start charging more than those people that are really talented and they're just willing to make less, you have to have something that differentiates you.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_04: And it's not gonna be your photos, it's just not.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I, as a professional, can tell you why someone is better than someone else with their images, but a lay person that doesn't know what aperture and exposure are, I don't know what that means.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_04: But like say what?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_04: They're not, you're not gonna be able to look at photos and tell me technically why you like something better than something else.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_04: You're just gonna say, I like it better.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_04: That's it.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_04: You're not gonna have words for it.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: I like the vibes.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: And that's enough.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_04: You don't need to know more than that.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_04: But part of having good copy on your site is not just explaining to people why they like that better, it's proving the process that it took to get there and why your process is different or better than your competitions.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_04: I always tell photographers, okay, envision that they're that somebody is shopping for a photographer, family weddings, branding, headshots, whatever.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: They've got 10 tabs open on their website and they're looking at every single tab.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: What about your website is gonna have them stop?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like, what are you gonna put on there that's gonna make them go, you know?
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_04: And again, it's probably not gonna be the photos because if they've narrowed it down to the 10 of you, they liked the aesthetic that they saw on Instagram or on Pinterest or however they got to you in the first place or Google.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_04: And like something about your images got them there.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: What makes the sale?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_04: Not your images.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_04: Your images are not gonna make the sale.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_04: From they might support the sale, but it's gonna be the words that tell them, oh, this person's for me.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_04: When you have on your website, right when somebody gets on there, you're jumping into the conversation they're having in their head and answering questions they haven't even verbalized yet, but they have.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_04: That is like such a done deal for so many people.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's like establishing that trust, like I understand you on a deeper level.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: And at what's popping up for me, you know, my background is with designers, and we have a similar problem like this.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's always like, I'm the best, I chose the best fonts, and you know, and all these things that only other designers really care about.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the clients can't really tell the difference and don't really care.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And one thing I see on both websites is that tendency to talk about myself.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: My design is the best, my photos are the best, and it's that hero positioning, right?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: The the photographer or the designer is I'm the hero here, I'm the best one out there.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: But really, the trick is, and I like the name of your business, really, it's like how do you make the client be the hero of the story?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And how can you write a website that's written to them and something that they resonate with?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're putting them in the green chair of honor and making them the star.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if you can do that, that's how you stand out in a sea of talented photographers.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's how you stand out.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: In a sea of talented designers, that's how you do it.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: It like comes back to the words and the position.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I really feel strongly about that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: I want to ask you, when did you fall in love with storytelling?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like what you I you went to college for photojournalism.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, was this a childhood thing, or like how did that come to be?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_04: No one has ever asked me that.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I'm like having to like pause.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_04: I always have an answer ready.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_04: That's like such a basic question, and no one has ever asked me.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for asking me that.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: I would say it could be because Shay's projector brain, dude.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: I swear to God, sometimes she just overlooks, like she just looks at things and pulls them out.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just like, what?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's also a hard question because you're like, oh, I love it.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: I love it.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna pretend this is my diary now, so bear with me.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so I was the yearbook photographer when I was in high school, and I I probably did it.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_04: I know I've always loved photos.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_04: My I played sports my whole life.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_04: I have four siblings.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_04: We all played sports.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_04: My mom was always there in her skirt and sneakers on the sidelines taking photos.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_04: Patsy was the team mom, and she gave everybody photos at the end of the season in these little like creative memories box things.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I loved that.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_04: I loved the getting the film back, you know, because I'm old, it was film.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: And so I know I always loved the process of the memory of it and like getting the film back and remembering how I felt when she took that photo or what the game felt like or what had just happened if we had just scored a goal or something.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_04: There was something so visceral about seeing it in front of you and holding it and the attachment to it.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then I think I just like idolized my mom a lot.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_04: And so I was like, I'm gonna be the yearbook photographer when I got into high school.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I loved that.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_04: And writing just always writing has always come really, really naturally to me.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_04: I have always been able to communicate best through words since I was a small, small child, since I first learned how to write.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_04: I could always tell you how I was feeling.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I was just enough of a rebel that when I was being taught to, you know, write papers, and I always broke the rules a little bit.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it was always like, well, it would probably sound better if I did it this way.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: So I think I was always like having, I always had that tendency to, you know, find the heart of the matter.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I was always a little dramatic and I overshared, which is helpful as a writer.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's like what you want in the end.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_04: So, and I think I was just coming from a large family.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: I think I was a little bit desperate to be seen and noticed.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I never had a problem asking for that attention.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_04: I was not like blending into the wall, like, oh, maybe if they notice me, they will.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: It was like, no, no, no, I'm gonna be loud until somebody notices.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: So it was like, my feelings are worth writing down.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_04: My feelings are worth sharing.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_04: Who I am is worth putting out into the world.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: So I never had a problem with that.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_04: And I just love people.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_04: I've always loved people.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_04: I've grew again, huge family.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_04: My siblings are my best friends.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_04: I used to make this joke because I played soccer in college, that I never even needed to shower alone.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_04: I just never wanted to be alone because you know, we're team showers every day.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_04: It was like I never ever wanted to be alone by myself.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: I always wanted to be with someone.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm still like that.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_04: My circle is much smaller now.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_04: But like, if I could always have one of my sisters sitting next to me, I would like hands down.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: I would never need alone time.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_04: I do not need to decompress.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: I just always want people.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that's probably where like the telling other people's stories came in.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_04: And my story gets boring real quick.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I'm done with mine.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: What a superb answer for somebody that's never been asked that question before.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you for that being my diary for a second.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: I had to like go through the archives.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: You can tell I've been in a lot of therapy because I'm like, let's go back to the beginning when I was young and find the route.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can also tell that you're good at telling stories.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was really, really beautifully.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: That was really nice.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for thanks for just spitting that out for us.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Literally anytime.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us about, you know, I'm wondering, I'm sitting here, like, okay, so you uh started as a photographer and then you pivoted into copywriting.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now you're solely copywriting, you're doing photography on the fun on the side and for fun.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_02: It is for fun.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: My question I'm wondering, I've heard creatives complain about when you make your creativity your business, um, it kind of takes it out of us, it takes it to a place that sucks.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: It makes it be like your job.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so is that I'm curious, is has that been the relationship with photography now?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Now you've gotten it back into a place where it's like fun again and creative.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, like what was behind?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Was it really a necessity?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: Are you missing photography?
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how did that and why did that pivot happen?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: I miss photography a ton.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_04: I miss it a ton.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I will say, like, I have a couple shoots this month um with old clients, and I know that when I show up, I will be so happy to be there.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_04: It is gonna be so fun.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_04: I have four shoots on Saturday for an a past client.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_04: And it's gonna be exhausting, but I'm gonna love it.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna have the best day.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_04: But the thought process of like, okay, I've got to go through all my cards, I have to delete everything, I have to charge everything up, like the checklist of it, I'm out of practice on.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a little more draining.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_04: And then the whole process of like backing up my images and editing, like I'm just not in that flow anymore.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm dreading that piece of it.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I have, I was never able To get my photo side of my business to a place where I got to stop doing everything.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_04: And in my copy side of my business, I almost do nothing now.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_04: I only get to do the things that I absolutely adore.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: So I miss photography if I could have had or set up the business the way the copy side is now.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like I have writers, I have an assistant, you know, I have all these people managing all the stuff I don't want to do.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_04: And they get to make good money doing it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm thrilled to give it to them.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_04: And with photos, it's like it's still on me.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like it feels very freelancer when I am a photographer.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And there's like an irritating bit to that because you're like, I don't do this anymore.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I am a CEO.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, no, I still have to plug in this charger at 3 a.m.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_04: when I wake up and remember that I didn't do it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like stuff like that.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_04: That I'm just I think I could have made photography happen if I knew what I know now as a business owner, but it wasn't the right thing and it wasn't the right time.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: And maybe photography will be a thing again.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: But my kids are two and four.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't really want to spend 12 hours away from them every weekend like I was.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: The lifestyle of it is tough.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_04: It's so different.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_04: So um I would say I really miss writing for myself.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_04: I write so much for this business that I don't get the chance to like sit down and journal.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like I don't have a diary at this point or like a personal doc that I'm just always adding to.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I used to be really good about that.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_04: But I again, I think that might be the kids' fault.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I think I think it's one of those things where it's like the shoemakers' kids have no shoes.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're just you're so stuck in this world and it's like, oh, I love it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm stuck in it.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing this, I'm getting in the flow, whatever.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you're out of the flow, you're like, and life has to go on and dinner has to be made, and I have to shower eventually.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, so then blocking out another time block to do for yourself what you do for other people, it's it's tough.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like that's not really talked about in the online business world either.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty impressive, honestly, when it's like when a copywriter has like their website copy updated, or like an SEO person when I'm on top of my SEO all the time, or like a YouTube strategist is like constantly posting good YouTube videos.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's impressive when a professional can do that for themselves too.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: Hey man.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_04: And that's something I've been really committed to.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like, we re-brand our site every few years, and I just rewrote all of the copy um this spring, and we relaunched like the new look and feel of the site.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_04: And because I think it's crazy when like a copywriter has a terrible website with terrible copy, I'm like, how do you sell yourself?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_04: I but it is so much work.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like I have to like, I was like waking up at five every day to do it before the kids got up because it was like this needs to get done.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it was so intentional on my part, but I don't have any personal time for writing.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_04: That is something that I have not made a priority at all.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, like a lot of business growth happens when you're kind to yourself.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_04: And so that is something that I definitely wish that I took a little bit more seriously.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if only there was more hours in the day, right?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm more motivation.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: It's more motivation because there's hours.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_04: I dick around a lot on things that I should not.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I wish that I was like, I think I'm at the point now, again, going back to that like CEO mindset where it's like, I put in four good hours today.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_04: Phew, I did it.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_04: But it's true, it's like my brain can only operate at that level for so many hours a day.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: And then I have all these other hours, and it's like, I would like to be a little bit productive, but it's like, oh, I'm so drained.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like a it's a band, it's a bandwidth thing, really.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like I only have so much bandwidth and I spend it on what I have to spend it on, and then it's done.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: I literally just got off a call with my therapist talking about this exact like I want to make space for creativity.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: Creativity is how I connect to spirituality, and every morning I am not doing it, and I'm like, what is going on?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Or like, yeah, uh I just I don't know what that is.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I know what I need to do, and I know I want to do it.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's hard because there's just only so much gas in the tank every day.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: And if you have to be realistic about what level of life's video game are you on right now?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: Are you on level hard?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: You have a small child at home, you have a business and all these creative interests, like and be nice to yourself.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, realistically, I only wake up with this much.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: I spend enough of what I have to.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe in the next level, the next chapter, I'll have more bandwidth.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: I heard someone say the other day, I thought it was so interesting.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: The only way that change happens for you to make those like deep habit style changes in your life is for you to add resources.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you literally have to like make the gas tank bigger, like add fuel to the fire, add bandwidth for real change to happen.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've been trying to like tell myself lately, like, okay, well, this is just where we're at.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm using the bandwidth the best I can.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: And like, what could I do to perhaps get more bandwidth in the future?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's what I've been asking myself, because I don't, that's tough.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have this like desire, but I'm not doing it day to day like I'd like to.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_04: I also think it's hard though, because adding resources also is usually adding a good habit.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like, like for me, my therapist, I go on walks almost every day.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_04: And because I, you know, I used to be a CrossFitter, but at this, I am on level hard.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_04: A walk is all I'm getting out of myself physically at this point, and I've accepted that.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_04: But she said, Can you not call a sister, get on Marco Polo, or listen to a podcast for just 10 minutes?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_04: The first 10 minutes of your walk, no music, no input, nothing, just walk.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_04: And it is such a good habit.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_04: Have I done it?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_04: No, I did it for like five days in a row the first time she should suggested it to me.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, eh, not for me, Kathy.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I I desperately want to have that habit.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_04: And I know that if I did it, it would be adding a resource, it would be adding 10 minutes of time for my brain to either rest or create whatever it decides to do.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_04: But there is some type of resistance or block that isn't allowing me.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, I don't know how to get over.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm fine, I'm surviving.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not gonna like die over it.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, I totally understand what you're saying about like wanting to add in these healthy habits, but not understanding or knowing where to start.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're like, what's this block?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: This block feels like it's it's there, but I really don't know how to talk about it.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm glad you resonate.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate you saying that because it's always helpful for me to hear someone else articulate like something I'm trying to piece together in my head.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you're so good with words that you made it sound very lovely.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I appreciate that.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: So nice.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: You said something earlier that really stuck with me, and you said the world didn't need me to be a photographer, the world needed me to be a copywriter.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: How what did that look like?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: How did you I I think that's cool.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: One thing that's coming up on the podcast a lot is a successful business is kind of this mix of what lights you up, but also what problem you solve in the world.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: And really starting with where's the problem that I can come solve?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then what lights me up?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, kind of filtering there's something about starting with that problem that you solve in the world that I think is cool.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, how did you figure out that it was more copywriting?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_04: Well, there's this quote by Frederick Biegner that is like exactly what you just said.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, um, your calling in life is where the world's need and your passions meet.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, cool.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_04: And something like that.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_04: I butchered that, but it's a great quote.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember hearing that in high school, and it I think about it probably once a day because I think my entire business is run on what is being presented to me right now because I am somebody, I you always use the term buffalo.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: I will buffalo my way in if I want something.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes that's sometimes it's served me really well, and other times it's put me in places or positions or relationships that I didn't belong in in the first place.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think my life's work is to understand what's being presented to me and take advantage of it.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_04: And even if that's not my ideal.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_04: And so at first it was copywriting, but here's the thing when life presents it to me, it always makes sense.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, oh duh.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_04: It's always like an oh duh moment.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_04: Even if I didn't set out to be a copywriter for photographers, it evolved so slowly and beautifully and naturally that, and every step was like, Yeah, I'll do that.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'll do that.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like, even today, I was having a conversation with a friend about what's next for me because I need to add something to what we're doing.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_04: And she just said this thing in literally 30 seconds, and I was like, oh duh.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it's like a coaching program that I want to do for photographers.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_04: And it was the way she said it was so simple.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_04: And if she had said it to me last week, it wouldn't have resonated.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_04: But because it was said this week, I'm like in the space to hear it.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_04: And so when I say the world didn't need me to be a photographer, it was kind of like I was trying to buffalo my way into this world because it was like I decided that I looked up to these women that did this style of photography and I wanted to be just like them.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_04: And to be truthful, like my skill set probably like I'm a good photographer.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_04: I know I am.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: I'm happy to charge people money for it and I know they're gonna get a good product.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: But when I look at who I was trying to be, I'm like, I need to let them be that and I can help in a different way.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_04: And that was writing and being a business owner.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I never approached my photography business business first.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_04: I was so emotional and attached to everything that I did.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_04: And with copy, it's always been how do I serve my clients the best and how do I do it with what I'm good at?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_04: And it just has always made more sense that way.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: What a beautiful lesson that is.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's tough.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's especially tough for business owners.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's especially tough when we get into business because we're passionate about something, and then to follow the breadcrumbs and then look back in hindsight that it's leading us somewhere else.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's tough.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also really fucking cool that it's like we all stress out about I stress out literally like every week.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what's the next step?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: What am I gonna do?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: What am I gonna create?
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And like I love experimenting and testing and tweaking, but like you're right.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: If we allow it to come to us and we're open to whatever it is instead of holding so hard to this expectation of what we expect and what it has to be and how it has to look, we can be surprised because you know, they often say that it's like I ended up nowhere near where I thought that I would be, but it's somewhere that I couldn't even imagine.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: Right, right.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_04: I could have never pictured this.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_04: Not when I in 2014, when I started this business, not in a million years.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_04: And I think I also don't want to give myself too much credit here.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_04: Copywriting has been a million times more lucrative for me than photography ever was.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_04: But again, I think it not that photography couldn't have been, because it could have been.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: I just didn't approach it with the right mindset.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_04: And the way I got to copywriting was so much more natural.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_04: So, but I don't want to be like this like I don't want to be too woo-woo and spiritual about it because there also is a very real aspect of I'm also making money now and I wasn't before.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, it's it's the baby steps, right?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like following the breadcrumbs and the baby steps.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And then my aunt told me this thing a while ago, and I forgot what big decision I was up against making.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it was like quitting school or something before I started my business.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, Mariah, the way to go through life is honestly just like make a decision, keep going.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then when two opportunities present themselves or an opportunity presents itself, then you just re like then you just sit back, go back to the drawing board and be like, okay, which one do I want to put my eggs in?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not about like strategizing the entire plan, it's about sitting with the opportunity and just being like, okay, do I want to follow this one or do I not?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then you just keep moving forward.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then do I want to follow this one or not?
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, Stop trying to figure out the plan.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, Bitch, get out of my brain.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_04: I know it's so hard though.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like so much opportunity and goodness is on the other side of like letting go of control.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I don't know how you guys were raised or where you were raised, but where I'm from, everybody stays and everybody makes their job choice at like 18.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_04: And then they just do it forever.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of it is because there's a lot of family businesses where I'm from.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_04: And like my dad always tells this story, and this is something I respect my dad for so much.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_04: When he was six, he was like, That's where I want to live.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_04: And he has spent his entire life living there as a grown man.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_04: And he bought a business when he was 19 and he has owned it, and now he is almost 70.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_04: And so, and I respect him so much for that.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_04: And he never once told me I had to live my life that way.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_04: But I remember when I was young, probably in college, thinking, like, I have to figure this out now.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_04: My dad knew by now.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: I'm already past the prime.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't know where I want to live, I don't know what I want to do or be.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_04: And something that was so important to me, especially in owning my own business, was that like nothing is permanent.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: That was my mantra, especially when I was having my babies, was like, I can make a decision and change my mind.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_04: There's nothing wrong with changing my mind.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_04: I can like we moved back to Philly for two years and then the pandemic hit and we came back here.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: But it was like, I would have never moved to Philly in the first place if I didn't tell myself I can change my mind.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we can come back.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: It's not permanent.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_04: Just because I announce this to the world that I'm making this choice doesn't mean I have to do it forever.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I don't know what kind of this says about who I am as a person, but when I make a decision, I feel like everyone is holding me to it.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_04: No one is.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_04: You know, but it's like maybe it's just social media that we put everything online so it feels like JK, sorry.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like you don't want to look flaky or something if you change your mind.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_04: But that has given me the most freedom out of anything over the past five years is giving myself permission to pivot or change.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I need to write that on a post-it note and put it on my everyone needs to.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: You have permission to change your mind.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's so true.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I need a reminder all the time because all my decisions feel so heavy and like life or death and declaration.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Rarely is that the case, right?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's such a powerful reminder.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you really, you know, we ended season two with talking about this idea of this idea of figuring out your life's work is really elusive.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we think that it's this answer we need a solution for, when really it's just like this evolving thing, like layers of the onion that you're peeling back.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so you said, my life's work is to make the most with what's here right now.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh wow, goosebumps.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: I goosebumps just saying it.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if you make your purpose in this life, your life's work, your calling, to just, I'm gonna be present, what's here right?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna be honest about what's here right now, and I'm gonna try to use my resources and make the most of it.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: And if you just do that over and over and over and over again, that's like a life well lived.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's just it's all about presence.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not about finding this mythical end point of life purpose and meaning.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's really about being present and just like making the most of what you got.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I and I love this idea of, and then where's the ease?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like Mariah is saying, you're coming to this pivot point, you have two choices.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: Where are things happening naturally?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: You know, where's the ease?
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: There, there's some, there's a little bit of magic to this as well as like tactics and strategy.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a really awesome pivot point.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Just wanted to slide in here mid-episode and fill you in on some cool things quick.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we are in our third season of Curiously Guided, and there's nothing that fires us up more than making this podcast and hearing all the positive impacts it's having on our listeners.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Up until this point, this has been a pure passion project.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: But we've got bills and expenses for this podcast, y'all.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: If you have the means and would love to support us in creating new episodes, feel free to head over to curiouslyguided.com slash support to buy us a coffee.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: And if you want even a deeper dive, we're excited to offer.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna now um start doing some strategy sessions where you get both Mariah and I's brains on your business.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um there's nowhere else in the world where you can we Mariah and I both don't work with people in such micro ways.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: So this is kind of a cool thing to get both of us looking at your business in kind of like a one-off strategy session.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: Just imagine us two and you together diving deeper on your business, marketing sales, and everything in between, um, all while filtering it through the lens of strategy energetics and energetics, which you know is our style.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to learn more about what working with Mariah and I could look like, head on over to our website, curiously guided.com/slash session, to get the details.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you guys so much for hanging out with us.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: We appreciate you so, so much.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Now let's get back into the episode.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: One thing I was hoping we could talk with you about is that kind of intersection of data and intuition, because I know that's really important for you and your work with writing copy.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: And can you kind of tell us like what does that look like?
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like blending the woo with the strategy in copyright?
• 39:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_04: So I feel like there's so many ways I could answer this.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_04: I'll do the really technical way first.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_04: So some a lot of copywriters, especially direct response copywriters who are like selling supplements or something, they're gonna talk about numbers and science and data to sell this product.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_04: And we'll use a lot of social proof.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_04: And our process is research.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_04: You know, when we bring on a photography client, we'll interview three of their past clients, and that's our data.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, our data is the words they use, the phrases they use, the reasons they hired this photographer.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_04: That's our data.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_04: But if you think about that, words as data and phrases as data, there is still much left to the interpretation of whoever is writing or reading those words and where you put them on a page.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_04: So, yes, our process is based on research and on what we learn from the photographer and from their clients.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_04: But at the end of the day, when you're trying to interpret, you know, what Susie said to attract more people like Susie, we have to take into account where they're coming from.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_04: Again, more data and how much they know about the photographer by the time they land on their site.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_04: And then we have to tell a story.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_04: It has to be an intuitive, human, connecting story to make sure that that person landing on the site resonates in their emotions with the data point of this phrase that we gleaned from the client.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_04: So that's how we integrate both, you know, and there's gotta be, I don't think, at least for me, the three writers on my team are incredibly intuitive and incredibly empathetic.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_04: And because a lot of times photographers are saying something, but they don't actually mean what they're saying.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_04: They don't understand how it's being interpreted.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_04: So our job as copywriters is to give them the words they were trying to find.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I think what you mean is this is this resonating with you and presenting them with different ways to say and explain things.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I'm glad that you brought that piece up too, because it's like the the data piece of like getting the information and the words that like the past clients use, very important, obviously.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like we absolutely need that.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's also weaving in the authentic perspective of the service provider.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that, especially in people that are either just starting in business or don't look at their business from a business per first perspective, or maybe haven't even, I don't know, like wrote anything since high school or college, finding a message, figuring out their message that portrays their voice.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: That is like one of the hardest things I think in business is like knowing what you want to say.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: And even like hiring a copywriter, I guess I'm just thinking like in the beginning stages of business, if I was, I don't even in my first three years, I think if you were like, hey Mariah, hire this copywriter, they're gonna talk to like your past three clients, what do you want to say?
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, I don't know.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what I want to say.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, how I guess what what's the perspective helping the service provider of like, is there questions that you ask them to help tease out like what is your voice?
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: What makes you different?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: What are you here to say?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because like the last thing that we want is for our clients to blend in, right?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then if we bring in this intuitive piece, everybody has their own strengths, everybody has their own gifts and their own message.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: But like as we're trying to figure this out, we often end up sounding like everybody else because we're using everybody else's inspiration.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, back to my question of like, what how do you help people kind of tease out their own voice?
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's fucking tough.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_04: It is, but with practice, it becomes much easier.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_04: So they answer like a 40 question questionnaire before we ever get on the phone with them.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_04: And then let's say I'm the writer on the project, I would be on the phone with them, and they've probably given me 60% of what I need in the questionnaire, but it's like The least important 60% and the 40% I get on the phone call is the really, really important stuff.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_04: And so they don't know that we're doing it.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_04: That's the key.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_04: Is like, I'm not the worst thing I can do to somebody is be like, what do you want to say on your about page?
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'd be like, I don't fucking know.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_04: But you paint a picture for them.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_04: You can say, um, okay, so the last inquiry that you met up with in person, you know, to see if you were a fit, what questions did they ask you?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_04: And so they're like, Well, they wanted to know X, Y, and Z about me.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember saying this.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's like they start talking about what they say to their actual clients, and that's where the gold is because they get out of their writing head and they get into their relational head and they're just talking like they talk.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_04: And that's usually where like the golden nuggets of copy come from when they start to think about themselves just sitting across from somebody having a beer and explaining their process and why they love what they do.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_04: That's when their voice comes out.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the magic is in the nuance.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, totally.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: And making sure they don't know what I'm doing.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's almost like tricking them into talking about this because a lot of people, the first 15 minutes of the conversation, they're writing at me with their voice and they're like, I don't know, like, you know, real breathy about it and anxious and nervous, and they don't like think they're giving you enough.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_04: And then you just get them talking about it.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_04: And I love having people talk about their favorite clients.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: Now, part of our questionnaire is they write a love letter to their favorite client about what I like list out.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_04: I want you to say this, this, this, and this.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like they tell me what they loved about working with them, how they felt leaving their wedding or their photo shoot, um, how they felt editing the images and what they were hoping that their client got out of them.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_04: And having them do that exercise really gets them into the headspace of the kind of people they want to work with and the kind of feeling they, as the photographer, want to have while they work.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_04: And that to me, sorry, I'm going on a tangent, is the most important thing.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_04: I want, like so many copywriters are just going to tell you that they want to help you make more money because that's what a copywriter's job is to make you more money.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_04: But I do not think that's my job because most of my clients are making money.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_04: The problem is they don't like their life.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_04: They do not like the people they're attracting, they don't like what they're photographing, they want to pivot into something, they want to do something a little differently, but they don't know how because they've worked themselves into this corner where they feel like they have to keep doing the same thing.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_04: So I think our job, like Green Chair Stories, and this is like what I would say our differentiator is from other copywriters for photographers, is that like I'm not just trying to like help you charge more.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_04: That will be an added benefit.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to get you to a place that every time you show up to a session, you are psyched about it.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like you cannot wait to hang out with people who have hired you.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_04: Because I'm telling you right now, 90% of photographers do not like the people they're working with.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_04: Not that they're bad people, but it's just not the right fit.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_04: So being able to put language to what they want to be doing and who they want to be working with is like that's why I do what I do.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_04: Because then I'm actually changing someone's life.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_04: I'm actually making their life better.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_04: And that is way more motivating to me than then getting like an extra$1,000 for every wedding they shoot.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: That there was so much good stuff in there.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm blown away by you.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for all of that.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're uh you guys are so nice to me.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: I should talk to you every day.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: I loved what you were saying.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_02: Well, first of all, you're you're what you're saying is we can collect the data, but we have to for it to work on a human level, we have to ground it in emotion and in real humans and real story.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, as you were talking, what was popping up for me, um, Ryan I have in the past now hosted a workshop, but it's future at the time of recording.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I need to write a sales page.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I really like I sat down and I tried to write it.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, who's this for?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: What's about?
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I had that like breathy.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Mariah and I just we were shooting a podcast and we had to shoot it in the intro.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I just riffed for like 30 minutes, 30 minutes, 30 seconds to a minute.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_02: And Mariah was like, there's our sales page.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: And it felt so effortless.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's something about speaking that we often skip over.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard that Brene Brown writes her books by having a friend come over and she starts telling stories, and there's a person there writing it down.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's cool.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Of like, how could you, if writing feels heavy and intense, how can we anchor it in emotion, anchor it in human, anchor it in story and talking and having a conversation that immediately feels so much lighter.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: And the idea of a love letter to your like dream client, and I there's something powerful about feelings, um from a selling perspective, but like we all know people are really making sales decisions based on feelings.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: But I loved what you said like a way to differentiate another way, everyone out there is selling.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'll help you make more money, I'll help you make more money, I'll help you make more money.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, how can you be more than that?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, yes, money, and also feeling confident to send people to your website, feeling excited to hand someone your business card because so many people are like shamed.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't want you to look at it, it looks horrible.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like, how many times have you gotten a business card and somebody's like, I mean, I'm changing it, just so you know.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: Please, I'm gonna give this to you, but please don't look at it for 30 days.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you can sell that, like at the end of the day, you're gonna walk away feeling like this.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: I have found that's such an easier way to connect with people than like and double your revenue, maybe you know, it's just but some people want that, and that's the thing.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like, that's true, and that's the beauty of what all of us do.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_04: There are there's so many clients to go around.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like, it's beautiful.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_04: And the people that really, really want a photographer or a copywriting company that's like based in sales, boy, do I have the referral for you, but it's certainly not us.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like, we're just not gonna write you a website that feels like selling.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I love that.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really cool about like being clear about who you're for and who's a hell yes, and who's a refer them on to someone else.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's really powerful.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_04: People think that like I that we don't have, like, we're so niche down compared to most copywriters that they're like, oh, you must be hurting for clients.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like, do you have any idea how many photographers there are in the world?
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I have five trillions.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, no, but like there really is a million.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_04: There really are copywriting problems.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_04: And so I have five other companies that I refer people to or individuals, depending.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, I'm happy to do it, especially if we're not the right fit.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't want to take your money.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's horrible.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like, if I know that you're not gonna like this experience and I can tell that, I cannot wait to match you with the person that you are going to love.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, we had somebody come to us recently.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if I should say this publicly, but I will.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_04: And my assistant Googled her.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_04: She just like had a gut feeling and Googled her.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_04: And there was like something that came up, and she was in a lawsuit with her state because she wouldn't publish images of like LGBTQ couples on her website.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, um we found that and we had already booked, like, signed the contract, was getting ready to pay the invoice.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, hey, never mind.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_04: This isn't gonna be a great fit.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I'm not gonna do that to my writer.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not gonna make you write like for something you are staunchly against.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_04: And so I referred her to somebody that I knew would be a much better fit for her, and it's fine, like, no harm, no foul.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not gonna like drag your name through the mud or be angry with you about it.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's just there's way too many people in the world for me to be trying to be grabby with everybody that comes into our inbox.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Nessia part of it oh, go ahead, Mariah.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, I was just gonna reflect back on the questions that you said a couple minutes ago of just like how you help tease that information out.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to make a note of like, even if you're not a photographer, switch the perspective here and like those are really great questions to reflect on if you're past clients or even if you're an e-commerce shop.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like it doesn't really matter what you're selling.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think answering those questions and kind of just reflecting back on like who you imagine like gets your end result, whether it's a service or a product.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is just really helpful and then bringing in the emotions there.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to make that point because it's like obviously in your perspective, you're primarily working with photographers, but it's like this information can go across the board and be insanely helpful in so many different ways by just like tapping deeper than just, like you said, what is going to be written on the page.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_04: And for anyone, the most common, simple copywriting formula that you can know, which again is data-driven, PAS, problem, agitate, solution.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_04: You present the problem that they're having, whatever, what whoever your client is, whoever you're serving or selling to, you agitate it with some emotion, how it feels in their body and in their mind, and then you present yourself as a solution.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_04: It is the most simple copywriting formula.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_04: And that's that's all all of us are doing.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_04: We're just calling it different things.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: What do you say to people that challenge that agitate step?
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: Have you run into that of how it's like maybe manipulative or like shame-based and like that?
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like you shouldn't be grinding people's pain points.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, what's the answer there?
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_04: I don't really have to deal with it because I don't really talk a lot about pain points in our copy because especially most of our clients are wedding photographers.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we do have a lot of family, but like when you think about somebody that's hiring a wedding photographer or a family photographer, they are looking to celebrate something.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_04: Almost always.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_04: Unless their like pet is like terminal.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_04: Like, that's like the only example I can think of where it's sad.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_04: And so I call them joy points in our business.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_04: Like, we want to agitate that joy point.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my god, I love that.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_04: So if you read our website, it or those sites that we write, it's much more about like your love looks like this, your love feels like this.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_04: Here's how I'm going to document it for you.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_04: So it's problem agitate solution, but it's more like love, joy from that love.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_04: Ah, the solution to remember it.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: So agitate whatever feeling you want to amplify.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, what a great way of saying that.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_04: I should write that down.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um but I do think, like for you guys and what you do, there is a problem.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like, if I was a designer, I would want to agitate the problem.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_04: I would probably say, like, hey, let me help you stop saying please don't go to my website every time you hand your business card out.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I think it's totally not manipulative and totally ethical to agitate how people are feeling if your solution is for them.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_04: You know, if you have an ethical solution, then you can agitate it all you want.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_04: If you're selling like diarrhea tea, then I might have a problem with it.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_04: But if you can get behind and truly believe in what you're selling people and you have proven results, you agitate that as much as what you can spend four paragraphs telling people how crappy they feel.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_04: If that is gonna make them understand the solution you're providing.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_04: And that's giving way too much credit to copywriters.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_04: People have their own minds, they can should know by now that they're being sold to at every point of every day, every time they open anything.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_04: So it's kind of like, you know, you're big girl, you have your big girl pants on, you can make your choice.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: I love joy.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, how do you agitate to joy?
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: That's such a good way to think about it.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: Agitate to amplify.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna write that down.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna say that's it.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's so good.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, you're so right.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's is there integrity behind the the product and what you're selling?
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_02: And your understanding of their pain, if you will, is what makes you an expert on the topic, right?
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: Your deep, thorough understanding of where they're at and specifically understanding the problem.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, geez, that's what practice what I preach.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: You first got to understand the problem.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: So the fact if you can show them, hey, I really understand your problem, I've always thought that was really powerful.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I can see how it can be used for not so good purposes.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: You can certainly um manipulate people and um trigger certain responses.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I I like what you said of like come back to are you operating in integrity?
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_02: Are you trying to solve a problem for this person and you want the best for them?
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: Well, then of course, empathize with them.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, let them know you understand.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, our website is more problem agitate solution because photographers do have a problem.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I want them to know that I intimately understand that problem.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_04: If I didn't, I shouldn't be helping you.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_01: That leads me to a question.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: When's the right time to hire a copywriter?
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_04: This is a great question.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_04: Um, when you know who you do and do not want to work with.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_04: I always say this, but like you have to kiss a couple frogs to really understand what you don't want.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_04: And sometimes we don't really know what we do want until we can eliminate who we don't want to be working with or what we don't want to photograph in my scenario.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but for any service provider, it's like you've got to test it a little bit, which I think we all naturally do.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't know about you guys, but when I started my business, I was doing everything for everyone.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_04: It was like, you want to pay me?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_04: Done.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_04: Great, can't wait.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I was doing senior photos.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_04: I literally did everything.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_04: And because I didn't know, you know, niching down is when you can really make money, like I didn't understand those principles yet.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_04: And so I think a lot of people naturally in the first couple of years of their business do this because they test out a lot of different things just to make money.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but when someone can come to us, for us and photographers, it's usually like two or three years into their business when they can say, okay, I've been doing this for a while and I really don't like it.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_04: I'm really starting to try to attract more of these kinds of clients and I don't know how to do that.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's a new market for me, or I just moved and I need to establish myself this way.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, I I always tell people like, don't waste your money until you're sure this is the direction that you want to go in, because I don't want to write copy for you that is irrelevant in six months.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like, that's not good copy, and I'm not gonna take thousands of dollars from you to set you up for failure.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_01: And it's, I mean, it it goes along with most of the things we say on a podcast of just like test and tweak, experiment, collect the data points.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think that there's something interesting.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think that there is a little bit of a shift happening or did happen.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure that it's the best kind of shift, but I feel like people that started businesses maybe like five years ago, it's like we all kind of got in, we were like, we don't know what the fuck we're doing.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna do this, we're gonna do that, and we're gonna do this.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like these these gurus or these people are like, you can make money doing whatever you want, which like we all know that that is true, but there needs to be context there.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like, but then people are coming in and they're just like, without experimenting, without testing, they're like, I'm just gonna throw money at this so that I can make money right away and so I can be big and like skip over the experimenting part of it and like want to like buy their way through the experimenting part.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like if you're doing that, you're going to waste so much money and you're always going to be dissatisfied with the results.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I think that it's interesting because this keeps coming up on quite a few interviews.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: But what I did want to ask, kind of piggybacking off of that, if like, okay, what if you're in the beginning stages of business?
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you're not three years in business.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, you're you're learning how to maybe experiment, you know that you need to have a website, and you're like, fuck, I don't even know how to get started with copy.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, copywriting formulas, like you already gave us one.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like people have copywriting formulas and they're templates.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts about templates and like those?
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, I think we went off on an episode last season in season two about like how templates can just feel really suffocating and they can feel impersonal and they can feel like you're kind of just like regurgitating, sounding like everybody else when we just said a few minutes ago that like actually the power is in your voice and in your message.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_01: So it feels like there's conflicting information.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, how do we walk that line of like figuring out what our messaging is, using a copywriting formula?
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what could be helpful for somebody that's kind of maybe in that zone or in that arena right now?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, there's so many guides out there that you can DIY your copy.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_04: Like I have one specifically for photographers, and it is our exact process, like written out in 60 pages, like how to write your own copy.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_04: And honestly, it does work for any service provider.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_04: It's just written to photographers.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_04: But there's also, I have so many copywriter friends that have brilliant courses.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I think there's steps.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm okay with templates.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I think templates are a great starting point for a lot of people.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_04: Just know that the two to$500 you invest in the template to write your first website is a it's a stand-in.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like if you plan on doing this for a while, you need to graduate eventually to something a little bit more sophisticated.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_04: But I think they are a great starting place.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_04: There is nothing wrong with starting there.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I will say knowing how to write copy and understanding your message is very, very helpful and valuable in business.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_04: So I have a couple friends who offer copywriting courses that kind of take you through like your positioning statement, your messaging, your mission statement, what's internal versus what's outward facing.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_04: And if you have the money to invest, I would say like the guide route is more two to 500.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_04: The course route is more around a thousand.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_04: And then you're not going to get custom copy for good custom copy for less than like four grand.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you could find it for like 3,500 somewhere.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_04: But um, so that's kind of like the levels that you can walk through.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I think it just depends on what you want and what your goals are for your copy.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_04: If you hate writing and you are never going to sit through a course, then don't invest in one.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_04: Just because you pay a thousand dollars for a course, it does it's not gonna make you like writing.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_04: So I would DIY it, suffer through, and then make enough money to hire someone to do it for you.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like using using the templates and maybe even the course as an inspiration.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then I feel like there is like there is a part of intuition that has to come in here because I guess I'm just thinking about like I took a um writing course in the beginning of this year.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: It was this girl, like the way that she spoke about things, I was like, take my fucking money, dude.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to know how you do this.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember in one of her things, I was like, I've never been in business for over seven years, and I've never sat down and like wrote my my statements.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like everybody's like, what is your my what is my I help this do this?
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like so.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm following this formula and I'm like, I help blah do blah.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm like writing it, and we got feedback from a copywriter, and she was like, What's your Instagram?
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: So she's like reading these like three things that I had, and I pop my Instagram and she comes back and gives me feedback, and she was like, you know, for you, like fuck the formula, dude.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like you are literally sucking the air out of everything, and you're losing the passion behind your words.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, think of the formula as like an inspiration of just like the main idea of it.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then what do you usually say?
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: Coming back to exactly like the tips that you gave before.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I just wanted to give that example of like, even if you are following templates, even if you are following formulas, you do not on your website have to be like, I help this do this.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if you can find a better, more passionate way to basically say say that exact thing, test it, tweak it, run with it, say it to her.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because I find that like the passion behind what you're saying is so much more powerful than the actual words or the formula that you're following.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_04: And going back to what Shay said about speaking, there's a dictating tool on Google Docs.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_04: So if you would like to just grab your computer and sit down with a friend or a partner and be like, this is what I really want to say to people.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_04: When I when they get to my website, I want them to feel like this and I want them to know this about me, and this is why that's important.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_04: And just talk.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_04: And Google will literally listen to you and put it in a Google Sheet or a Google Doc.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's something that I have in our guide.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_04: Like, hey, answer all of these questions and then talk to someone about like what you found and talk about because that is truly, especially as entrepreneurs, most of us are most clear when we speak.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_04: That's really helpful.
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know why I haven't done that before.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_04: It is like such an easy tool.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_04: Just like in the help bar, just search dictate and it'll come up.
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_04: It's a little microphone.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's so much more helpful.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like half the time I like take notes for the messaging that I want on my website through conversations, and I'll be like, pause that, and I'll get my phone out and like start typing something.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_01: I have this note in my phone.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's called gold.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know that it's like I'm I'm really patting myself on the back here, but it's basically like my my own word gold, and I just like view things that come out through conversation.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_04: I know Ash Ashlyn Carter is a really well-known copywriter in the creative space, and she always talks about a word bank, an idea bank, something bank, and it's basically what you're talking about on your phone, like uh notes, something somewhere that you can constantly be banking your ideas and your thoughts because most of your goodness is gonna come from conversation.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_02: Most of your goodness is gonna come from conversation.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: I love all of this.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm sitting here thinking about I've bought so many copywriting templates.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: Especially for web page.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because I had this story that because I was a web designer, I didn't know how to write copy and I needed to learn.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I have been so disappointed time and time again because I try to follow these templates because I told myself I didn't know how to do it.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_02: When really the better solution was me getting with the client, recording the conversation, like pulling out some bits from what they said, and then just like, I can tell a story.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_02: So like it's interesting.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking about this question when to find a copywriter.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a really good one because, on one hand, I do think it's true.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't know, I love how you sum that up.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't know who you're for and who you're not for, this can be, I say this on sales calls all the time.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this kind of work can be like pouring gasoline on a fire.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: But if you don't have that initial fire burning, we're literally pouring it on the ground.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then so you have, I actually had to say no to a coaching client last week because this he didn't have those that initial fire.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't know who he was or wasn't, and he was trying to pay to skip over that process to Mariah.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that I can see how we're all smart and we can see that, but there's something really magical about going through the experimenting phase.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's true about your copy.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: The first time, if you don't have the money, suffer through it because you're gonna learn.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna learn what you like and what you don't like, and you're gonna I've noticed that when I write, I the first have you heard of that idea of the crappy elf version?
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_04: You just want to the shitty first draft.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, get the shitty first draft out, and then all of a sudden later in the day, I'll read something and I'm like, oh, that's how I wanted to say that.
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's how those words come together.
• 1:07:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like you kind of have to get it done and then let it evolve.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a learning that happens there, and it can be cool if you're just getting started to do it yourself and know that it's a placeholder, like you said, and don't expect it to be perfect.
• 1:07:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's just gonna get you a few clients and that's gonna give you a few more data points that's gonna help you evolve it even more, and it just gets better.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a living document over time.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I think there is something to be said.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like I'm at this point now.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna use another metaphor where you do get a sense of what you like to do, who you want to work with, who you don't want to work with.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then it gets hard to talk about yourself because you like I have all of these data points, like I've helped in all of these ways.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how good at so many things.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, where do I focus in?
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_02: I can't be all of these things.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about one differentiator, not 1200.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's that metaphor of like, I'm inside a jar, I'm inside my own jar, and I can't read a label on the outside.
• 1:08:35
  SPEAKER_02: So that's when you can bring in a pro and they can come in and look at all of your stuff and say, Oh, here's the goodness.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_02: Here it's like sifting for gold, right?
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is the and I think if you're at that point, stop trying to do it yourself because exactly see yourself in the way that a pro can come in and see yourself, and you're saying you're gonna save these people so much time, so much headache, and the end result is even better.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's almost just like it's a a phase of just wait, just wait.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but I think you're so right.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_04: And usually if you're inside the jar, all that that pro is gonna do is if they're good at what they do, is figure out what people want to pay you for.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, like you might be good at a lot of things, but your clients probably only know the need that they have for a couple specific things, even though you know what you're gonna provide them, they're not going to know that they need it until after they've gone through the process.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_04: That's so interesting.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: So you get like their clients to read the jar, they'll read the label, and then you listen to how they're reading the label and write it down.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_04: So there is there, this is there's very much truth to this.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes people look at the copy that we've written and they'll be like, I don't like that.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, You have to have that in there because all of your clients see that.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like sometimes we need to go to bat and be like, Look, three clients said this phrase, like, we're not taking it out.
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_04: I know it's not important to you.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_04: I would be that client of yours.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would be like, No, I don't want that.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then you'd be like, Literally, everybody has said this, and I'd be like, I don't care, I don't want it.
• 1:10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, I don't really care what you think, I'm putting it on your website for you.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I did and the photographer gave me those clients' names, like they handpicked them.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like, not only did these people say this, your favorite people said this.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_04: So if you want more people like Susie, you gotta say this.
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_04: And Bible in me is so mad about that.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm having reactions and I know you're right.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but I will say it doesn't happen often, but it happens.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's definitely it's not common, but it's not rare, if that makes sense.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like if somebody says something in a way that doesn't have the the judge behind it like I would.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, but that just sounds so flat.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would say it in a different way.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then, but like to your point, you're like, yeah, but the people that are purchasing you don't relate to it with the juj.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, say the juj on the fucking the on the sales.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_04: And then they'll and then their mind will be blown and they'll be like, oh my gosh, I love the way you said that.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_04: But if they read it, it wouldn't resonate the same way.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_04: Interesting.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_04: So I'll give you an example, Mariah, because I know you'll appreciate it.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_04: Something very common people do not Google documentary family photographer, they just don't, they don't know what it is.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_04: They Google lifestyle family photographer.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_04: A documentary family photographer would does not want to be called a lifestyle family photographer.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_04: They're very, very different.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_04: But the clients do not make that differentiation.
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_04: So if you want to show up on Google, you've got to put something that you don't identify with as your H1 headline on your homepage.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, like, but think about that.
• 1:11:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm right, right?
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_04: You are right.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's literally what I tell my clients all the time.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's hilarious.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm glad that you pulled it into copywriting and used, you know, of course, an SEO example, but that's literally what I tell my clients.
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't really give a shit, dude.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you want to show up for this keyword?
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_04: Then like you need to have it on your website.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_04: So that's like a small example.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_04: Usually it's not that specific or direct as like relating to SEO, but there is stuff like that that comes up like phrases.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really great example, especially for photographers.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I remember being like, I don't even know what a lifestyle photographer is.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, right, right.
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_04: Am I like an influencer selling like and that's a problem with that keyword is that it like crosses a lot of genres, but that's a whole other podcast.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_01: This has been really, really fucking helpful, Rachel.
• 1:12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, good.
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so glad.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like this conversation, I feel like half the time my brain was melted on the ground, and I feel like I couldn't even come back with like really good questions because I just I honestly like hearing you talk about this.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's really like it's really captivating, and it's like I kind of just want you to keep talking and then me just to absorb and like not have to ask any questions.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had the same experience.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like you would finish talking, I'd be like, oh shoot, we have to really enjoying being in consuming mode.
• 1:12:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was like bathing in it.
• 1:13:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, this is I'm just like floating around in like an inner tube in a pool, like relaxing with this.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_01: This sounds nice, Rachel.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Take it away.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you guys.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you pulled it out of me because usually this is when my brain is dead for the day.
• 1:13:16
  unknown: Good, good.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we know, Rachel, we uh how um, I feel like you are a treasure trove of golden nuggets.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_02: How can we follow along with you or how can we work with you?
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what does that look like?
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I am on Instagram all the time, Green Chair Stories.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_04: And you're gonna hear me talk a lot about photographers, but I personally, my writers don't, but I write for other service providers.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_04: So if you really, really want to work with me, I might make an exception if you're like especially a designer.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, I'm on Instagram all the time.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_04: And my newsletter, I send out a weekly newsletter.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_04: Every week it's a little different, a little different format, but it's usually just copywriting tips.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like the last Friday of every month, I send out really fun links to things that I read and bought.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_04: It's like has nothing to do with copywriting.
• 1:14:06
  SPEAKER_04: So I love that.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really good idea, actually.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I should start.
• 1:14:10
  SPEAKER_01: What a fun way to connect with your listeners.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm stealing.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_04: Just like a break, just a break.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's like they don't always want to read about copy, you know?
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_04: That's not their thing, it's mine.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm literally writing down send out a list of cool shit.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's exactly what it is.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's like things I bought, things that made me laugh.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_04: Those are always TikToks, like things that left me in awe, or like the podcast episodes, anything I find interesting.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_04: That's really cool.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's another example of you doing what you said in this episode, which is just like you said, my people aren't copywriters, they're they don't care, they are whole humans that care about other things.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, duh, of course, like it makes all the sense in the world.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us about one question we always ask at the end of our podcast episodes is um, what uh curiosity has been sparked for you lately?
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Where are the rabbit holes?
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Where are you like getting lost in um like the sauce, like diving into things?
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_04: So we bought a home last year here in Denver when we moved back and we have to remodel the whole thing.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I know that a lot of people are gonna be surprised when I say this because I'm very, very confident and decisive when it comes to my business.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_04: But in every other area of my life, I'm extremely indecisive and I have to ask all three of my sisters their opinion before I like buy a pair of jeans.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_04: So this process of like having to choose like paint and carpet and tile and cabinets, like it is so overwhelming to me.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_04: I can't, I've had not been on Pinterest this much in a decade, like since I planned my wedding.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_04: And so that's like my main rabbit hole right now.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but the curiosity of it is that like, and I've been digging into this with my therapist, like, why is it so hard for me to make decisions in the rest of my life when like confidence and clarity and decisiveness come so easily to me as a business owner?
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_04: And um, so she's talked a lot about me like borrowing decisiveness from like my business owner personality.
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so I've really been trying to like adopt that and like trust myself.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_04: It's not going great, but the whole thing is an exercise in that.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_04: So I have a lot of lessons coming up.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but along with that, it's gonna cost a shit ton of money, and so I've become obsessed with budgeting in the past like week.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_04: That's like all I've been thinking and talking about, and now I'm the a frugal Frankie over here.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_01: Frugal Frankie.
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's funny.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Also, your therapist's perspective is very helpful.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I kind of fall into that sometimes too, of just like, I don't want to make any decisions because like I make so many decisions in my business.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a a similar thing too.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So thanks for sharing that perspective.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_04: And we're I also think it's because it's tied to money, don't you think?
• 1:16:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like it's easy to make decisions when it's tied to a direct ROI, but like how much screen time my kids should get, I don't I don't know.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not gonna find out for like 20 years if I screw them up because I let them watch too much bluey.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like, it's like I in a month, I'll know if that was the right or wrong decision and I can pivot with my kids and like how much I should be on my phone around them.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, man.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_04: That's a real gray area.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that's like why I have a hard time with it.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm thinking about it too.
• 1:17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess my perspective is like because I'm a professional in what I do, so I know the information, I know the data points, I know I've done the research, like I know things.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know things because I've tested and I've tweaked, but it's like like you were saying, like screen time with kids, or just like even what color I want to paint the wall.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I haven't painted the wall that color, so I can't tell you if I for sure like it or not.
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's definitely something there.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we will definitely leave the links to, I think you said you have a guide for photographers, but it also can be applicable for other service providers.
• 1:18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, cool.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we will leave the link to Rachel's guide.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_02: I want to get that and just know like all the questions you ask.
• 1:18:10
  SPEAKER_02: You have such great questions.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_02: It sounds so valuable.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I'll give your listeners a discount code.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_04: I'll do that right now.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_04: Curiosity15 is what we'll say.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yay, thank you.
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my God, you're the best.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so get the link to that guide and the coupon code in the description below.
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then we will also link over to Rachel's website and her Instagram.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we're gonna close this episode down.
• 1:18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if you guys enjoyed listening along with us, feel free to share it with somebody that you think would like it.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Screenshot it, share it on social media.
• 1:18:42
  SPEAKER_01: If something popped out to you, DM any of us.
• 1:18:46
  SPEAKER_01: We really do love connecting with you guys.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And as always, thank you so much for listening and for your support.
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_02: If you haven't yet, subscribe to the podcast and leave us a review so we can all continue to grow together.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And until next time, remember that you have the power to create whatever the hell you want.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_02: Follow the nudge, ask questions, and let curiosity guide the way.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_02: We'll see you in the next episode.