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STUDENTS BUTCHERED WHILE KOHBERGER "WATCHING MOON & STARS" · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
0:07
Speaker 2: Breaking you tonight, PhD student turned to murder suspect Brian Coberger.
0:13
Speaker 1: Files his alibi.
0:15
Speaker 2: He claims with a straight face, he was out stargazing.
0:20
Speaker 1: Quote out driving to see the moon.
0:24
Speaker 2: And the stars on the night for Beautiful University, Idaho students.
0:29
Speaker 1: Butcher dead in their own beds.
0:33
Speaker 2: This as the state is forced to admit in open
0:36
Speaker 2: court there was no stalking. Repeat, Coburger did not stalk
0:42
Speaker 2: any of the four murder victims. Now will the defense
0:47
Speaker 2: claim a lah, Johnny Cochrane, no stalking, no motive, no murder.
0:54
Speaker 2: I say, no way, good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This
0:59
Speaker 2: is crime story. I want to thank you for being
1:01
Speaker 2: with us.
1:02
Speaker 3: On the evening of November twelfth and into the early
1:05
Speaker 3: morning hours of November thirteenth, Kaylee and Madison arrived home
1:11
Speaker 3: at approximately one forty five am after visiting a local
1:14
Speaker 3: bar and a street food vendor. Ethan and Xana were
1:19
Speaker 3: also out in the community as Sigma Chai, and they
1:22
Speaker 3: arrived home at approximately one forty five am. Two surviving
1:27
Speaker 3: roommates who were also at in the community arrived home
1:30
Speaker 3: at approximately one am. Later on the morning of November thirteenth,
1:36
Speaker 3: at eleven fifty eight am, a nine on one call
1:40
Speaker 3: was placed. The call reported an unconscious person. The call
1:45
Speaker 3: originated from inside the residence and a surviving roommate's cell
1:50
Speaker 3: phone was used. During that call, the dispatcher spoke to
1:53
Speaker 3: multiple people who were unseen. Moscow police officers responded and
2:00
Speaker 3: found two victims, two on the second floor and two
2:03
Speaker 3: on the third floor of eleven twenty two King Road.
2:07
Speaker 3: The results of autopsies indicated that the four were stabbed
2:11
Speaker 3: multiple times and were likely asleep during the attack. Some
2:15
Speaker 3: had defensive wounds, and there was no sign of sexual assault.
2:20
Speaker 2: You are hearing Police Captain Roger Lanier there in Moscow
2:24
Speaker 2: detailing what happened the morning the murders were reported to
2:29
Speaker 2: nine to one one in the last hours Bobshell. In
2:32
Speaker 2: the courtroom, Ryan Coberger announced this his formal alibi, that
2:39
Speaker 2: he was quote out watching the moon and the stars
2:44
Speaker 2: around three.
2:45
Speaker 1: To four a m. The night of the murders. Hold
2:51
Speaker 1: that thought also in the middle of all of this,
2:55
Speaker 1: let me throw this in the pot to stew.
2:58
Speaker 2: We are now learning, contrary to many earlier reports.
3:03
Speaker 1: That there there was no stalking.
3:07
Speaker 2: Brian Coberger reportedly stalked no one. This is a torpedo
3:14
Speaker 2: to the States case.
3:15
Speaker 4: Listen, Brian Coberger tried to message one of the female
3:18
Speaker 4: victims of the Idaho murders. That's reportedly what an unidentified
3:22
Speaker 4: police source told People Magazine. The source said, weeks before
3:27
Speaker 4: the murder's direct messages were repeatedly sent to one of
3:31
Speaker 4: the women over Instagram. The source said there was no reply.
3:36
Speaker 4: Reports early on from an anonymous source revealed that there
3:38
Speaker 4: were pictures of at least one of the victims in
3:41
Speaker 4: Brian Coberger's photo role. Steve and Christy Gonsolves also shared
3:45
Speaker 4: screenshots with CBS News purportedly showing an Instagram account belonging
3:50
Speaker 4: to Brian Coberger and it had interacted with and followed
3:55
Speaker 4: Matty Mogen and Kaylee Gonsolves on the social media platform.
3:59
Speaker 4: Christy Alis said that Coburger had liked pictures on Matty
4:03
Speaker 4: Mogan's account. The account that Gonzalvez referred to was not
4:08
Speaker 4: authenticated as belonging to Coberger, then who wasn't.
4:13
Speaker 2: Well, that's what we've been told all along, right, all wrong.
4:19
Speaker 2: There was a serious blow up in court.
4:22
Speaker 1: Listen, you acknowled with false the Michilber allegend.
4:26
Speaker 5: We saw one of the victims. That's false.
4:28
Speaker 6: You know that, people, which one did missus Coberger allegend
4:31
Speaker 6: we stalked.
4:32
Speaker 5: One of the victims. I was trying not to say that.
4:34
Speaker 7: Because you knew you knew that was false.
4:38
Speaker 5: I did it.
4:39
Speaker 6: Yes, and so you now, for anybody who had never
4:41
Speaker 6: heard that before, that question is now planged in to
4:45
Speaker 6: them unqualified representation that mister Coberger stalked one of the witnesses.
4:50
Speaker 5: And that's false, that's false. Yes, yes, okay, thank you,
4:54
Speaker 5: thank you.
4:54
Speaker 2: Okay, what in the world you are hearing the prosecutor
5:01
Speaker 2: that is Bill Thompson the lot of County prosecutor dreaming
5:07
Speaker 2: technical legal term doctor Edelman for the defense, and the
5:13
Speaker 2: prosecutor is grilling him on claims that he made two
5:18
Speaker 2: potential jurrrs about stalking in this case. Joining me an
5:24
Speaker 2: all star panel to make sense of everything that's going
5:28
Speaker 2: on in that courtroom, and there is a lot. But
5:32
Speaker 2: first to Kaitlin Hornick, joining us editor at the US Sun. Caitlin,
5:37
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. I'm going to get
5:39
Speaker 2: to the moon of the stars, all right. I've already
5:41
Speaker 2: researched the whole thing on the Farmer's Almanac, Caitlin, what
5:45
Speaker 2: is this about?
5:47
Speaker 1: No stalking? Are we losing motive for murder?
5:51
Speaker 8: You know, Nancy, I think there are a lot of
5:52
Speaker 8: things still at play that this jury ultimately will have
5:56
Speaker 8: to uncover. The thing that's really sticking out to me
6:00
Speaker 8: is the you know, the back and forth with the stalking.
6:03
Speaker 8: I don't know how you can go from saying that
6:06
Speaker 8: there were these messages exchanged on Instagram and that the
6:09
Speaker 8: photos on the camera roll to saying, oh no, wait,
6:11
Speaker 8: that's that's not true, that's actually not true.
6:14
Speaker 7: You know.
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Speaker 8: I think there are a lot of things that the
6:17
Speaker 8: prosecutors need to be honest about and that they need
6:21
Speaker 8: to lay out in plain terms facts about what actually
6:26
Speaker 8: went on. Personally, I think the fact that his that
6:31
Speaker 8: Coburger's prosecutors doubled down on his alibi is equal parts
6:37
Speaker 8: shocking and you know, just kind of crazy when you
6:43
Speaker 8: think about it.
6:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm thinking about that whole watching the Moon and
6:46
Speaker 2: Stars aspect of this. Let me go to high profile
6:49
Speaker 2: lawyer joining us from this jurisdiction, Tara Malik, partner at
6:55
Speaker 2: Smith and Malik and former state and federal prosecutor Tara,
6:59
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Do you remember, of
7:02
Speaker 2: course you do the famous if it doesn't fit.
7:05
Speaker 1: You must acquit.
7:06
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like I'm getting bit in the neck
7:09
Speaker 2: with this thing. But all along we have heard police
7:14
Speaker 2: stating we don't have evidence of stalking.
7:16
Speaker 1: We've heard that from the get go.
7:18
Speaker 2: But yet we've seen screens and heard evidence that there
7:24
Speaker 2: was stalking by Coburger on at least one of the victims,
7:29
Speaker 2: if not more. So are we going to have a
7:31
Speaker 2: Johnny cochrane asque defense, no stalking, no murder, no motive.
7:37
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, it certainly doesn't help the States case.
7:42
Speaker 9: Motive is not something that they have to prove. It's
7:44
Speaker 9: not like, you know, an element of the charges. But
7:48
Speaker 9: what it does is explain the why behind the crimes,
7:52
Speaker 9: and jurors always want to know why why did this happen?
7:56
Speaker 9: And so it's going to be really critical for the
7:59
Speaker 9: prosecute to have a well articulated motive for this, because
8:05
Speaker 9: otherwise defense is going to come in and start tearing
8:07
Speaker 9: it apart and saying absolutely what you said, no stalking,
8:11
Speaker 9: no murder here, guys.
8:13
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it goes way back. Take
8:16
Speaker 1: a listen to Police Captain Roger Lanier.
8:19
Speaker 3: We've heard mention that Kaylee stated she may have had
8:23
Speaker 3: a stalker. Detectives have been looking into that and to
8:27
Speaker 3: this point have been unable to corroborate the statement. Although
8:30
Speaker 3: we continue to seek information and tips regarding that report.
8:35
Speaker 3: No suspects have been named or arrested, and we continue
8:40
Speaker 3: looking for what we will leave to be a fixed
8:42
Speaker 3: blade knife used in the murders.
8:45
Speaker 2: That knife never found, and neither has there been found
8:49
Speaker 2: evidence of stalking.
8:51
Speaker 1: Again.
8:51
Speaker 2: I can hear it ringing in my ears right now.
8:55
Speaker 2: No motive, no murder joining me is I said an
9:00
Speaker 2: All Star panel to Chris mcdunna, joining US director Cold
9:03
Speaker 2: Case Foundation, former homicide detective on the Interview.
9:08
Speaker 1: Room on YouTube.
9:09
Speaker 2: Chris mcdonna, of course, the state, as you know from
9:12
Speaker 2: handling so many homicides, never has to prove motive. But
9:18
Speaker 2: in many people's minds, there should be a motive presented
9:22
Speaker 2: to a jury, because how could a jury believe that
9:25
Speaker 2: someone that doesn't know these four victims would just randomly
9:29
Speaker 2: choose them and murder them to quote, see.
9:31
Speaker 1: What it feels like. That's going to be a.
9:33
Speaker 2: Tough sell, especially now that we find out the state
9:37
Speaker 2: has also learned. The defense is bringing on cell phone
9:41
Speaker 2: and radio frequency data to refute claims Coburger was in
9:46
Speaker 2: the area of the murders at the time of the murders.
9:50
Speaker 2: The state is getting torpedoed left and right. Now we've
9:54
Speaker 2: lost motive the stalking.
9:56
Speaker 5: Yeah, Nancy, I mean one of the most interesting things
9:59
Speaker 5: in I may just be semantics is when Thompson was
10:02
Speaker 5: arguing with the expert witness of the defense put on,
10:07
Speaker 5: he mentioned that there's no evidence of witnesses being stalked.
10:13
Speaker 5: I thought that was a very interesting choice of words
10:16
Speaker 5: versus victims. This may be a cover play as well
10:21
Speaker 5: by the state, because you know, you've got to now
10:25
Speaker 5: think about we've got some amateur, you know, astronomer i e. Coburger,
10:31
Speaker 5: you know, exercising in the middle of the night. Yet
10:33
Speaker 5: his cell phone shows up twelve separate times around the
10:36
Speaker 5: crime scene.
10:37
Speaker 2: Now, according to the defense, though, Chris, they're going to
10:40
Speaker 2: bring on cell phone experts and radio frequency experts to prove,
10:45
Speaker 2: according to the defense, that he wasn't there.
10:47
Speaker 1: Do I believe it?
10:48
Speaker 9: No?
10:49
Speaker 1: But what did your r just one believe it?
10:52
Speaker 2: Maybe this as we were learning and correct me if
10:55
Speaker 2: I'm wrong, Caitlin Hornet joining us from the US SUN.
10:58
Speaker 1: But the polls, the.
11:01
Speaker 2: Surveyor that was hired by the defense to call at
11:07
Speaker 2: least four hundred prospective gurrrs asked the gurrrs about stalking,
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Speaker 2: and we heard Prosecutor Bill Thompson say, you knew that
11:17
Speaker 2: wasn't true, and you asked people, you put it out
11:20
Speaker 2: there in the ether that there was stalking.
11:23
Speaker 1: And the guy responds, I don't care if it's true
11:26
Speaker 1: or false. He actually said that in a court of law.
11:29
Speaker 1: Did that happen? Caitlin.
11:30
Speaker 8: You know, I think one of the biggest things at
11:32
Speaker 8: play here at that that the whole the prosecution that Coburger,
11:37
Speaker 8: that everyone involved is struggling with is misinformation. You know,
11:40
Speaker 8: we've seen that from the beginning with the stalker not
11:43
Speaker 8: stalker bit. You know, there are so many inconsistencies that
11:47
Speaker 8: I think are still being investigated.
11:50
Speaker 2: Okay, question, I'm asking you about the surveyor, the surveyor
11:55
Speaker 2: that sent out called to at least four hundred potential
12:00
Speaker 2: Coburger your ours, and in that phone survey, the surveyor
12:06
Speaker 2: asked about Coburger stalking the victims, and you know what
12:11
Speaker 2: played again, was It's cut twenty Bill Thompson, the Lotta
12:14
Speaker 2: County prosecutor, grilling doctor Edelman who took part in this survey.
12:22
Speaker 1: Listen, you're donald was.
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Speaker 6: False the Michilberger allegend we stalked one of the victims,
12:28
Speaker 6: that's false.
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Speaker 1: You know that to be false?
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Speaker 5: Which one did missus Coberger allegend we stalked one of
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Speaker 5: the victims. I was trying not to say.
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Speaker 10: That because you knew you knew.
12:37
Speaker 9: That was false.
12:38
Speaker 3: I did it.
12:39
Speaker 6: Yes, And so you now, for anybody who had never
12:42
Speaker 6: heard that before, that question is now planged in to
12:45
Speaker 6: them unqualified representation that mister Coberger stalked one of the witnesses.
12:50
Speaker 7: And that's false, that's false.
12:53
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, okay, thank you, thank you.
12:55
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So Caitlyn Hornick, explain who is Edelman?
13:00
Speaker 9: Doctor Edelman is?
13:02
Speaker 8: You know he's a polster. We why he was making
13:06
Speaker 8: these phone calls and kind of you know, planting this
13:09
Speaker 8: information remains to be seen. You know, why he went
13:13
Speaker 8: so far and you know to say that there was
13:17
Speaker 8: stalking and you know, but these false claims, it doesn't
13:21
Speaker 8: make sense. And I think it's it's really up to
13:23
Speaker 8: the jury and the prosecutors to figure out what motive.
13:28
Speaker 1: Was crime stories with Nancy Grace.
13:40
Speaker 2: To Tara Malik joining US, high profile lawyer joining us
13:44
Speaker 2: from the Idaho jurisdiction. This is a major, big deal
13:50
Speaker 2: that the defense witness gets up on the stand and says,
13:54
Speaker 2: I don't care if it's a lie, I don't care.
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Speaker 2: It doesn't matter to me. Yet they have poison the
14:00
Speaker 2: jury pool with this. This is a big deal to ourmality.
14:04
Speaker 1: But what's the remedy.
14:06
Speaker 2: What You're going to throw off the defense attorney and
14:08
Speaker 2: start all over with somebody new.
14:10
Speaker 1: That's not going to happen. So the defense is getting
14:13
Speaker 1: away with this with impunity. Now.
14:16
Speaker 2: Now the result is those four hundred jurors are out.
14:21
Speaker 1: They have been poisoned.
14:22
Speaker 2: So if any of them, which is highly likely in
14:24
Speaker 2: a small jurisdiction.
14:26
Speaker 1: Are called a jury duty, they're out. They can't be
14:29
Speaker 1: on the jury. Yeah.
14:30
Speaker 9: Absolutely, I mean the judge noted in the hearing where
14:33
Speaker 9: they were talking about this issue with the Folster and
14:36
Speaker 9: the specific questions that were being asked. You know, you
14:39
Speaker 9: both parties have done have gone to great lengths and
14:43
Speaker 9: to also protect from having false information out in this community,
14:48
Speaker 9: which is a really small community, and yet here we go.
14:52
Speaker 9: Defense hires a consultant to go out there and pose
14:56
Speaker 9: questions under the guise of trying to figure out, you know,
14:59
Speaker 9: whether there's prejudicial ideas or biases out in this community
15:03
Speaker 9: to support their request for a venue change. And they're
15:08
Speaker 9: just spreading this information that they know is untrue. So
15:11
Speaker 9: it's a really big deal and the judge was understandably
15:14
Speaker 9: upset by it. Now the defense is trying to say,
15:18
Speaker 9: you know that this is normal and that they're just
15:20
Speaker 9: trying to gather information to support their motion for change
15:24
Speaker 9: a venue. But either way, you don't have to go
15:26
Speaker 9: that far.
15:27
Speaker 2: We are learning about the weather conditions the night of
15:32
Speaker 2: the murders. To Joe Scott Morgan, how difficult is it
15:37
Speaker 2: to pull that up?
15:38
Speaker 1: Because I found it pretty quickly.
15:39
Speaker 2: The night sky at eleven fifty pm November twelve, throughout
15:45
Speaker 2: the morning was basically very low visibility. And jo Scott,
15:53
Speaker 2: before you answer that, I'm looking throughout the night three
15:57
Speaker 2: seventeen am overcast, three fifty three am.
16:00
Speaker 1: That's the time of the murders, ice.
16:03
Speaker 2: And fog, four fifty three overcast, five fifty three overcast,
16:08
Speaker 2: six fifty three overcast, so what's he looking at?
16:12
Speaker 10: Nothing? I mean, how can he see? You know, unless
16:15
Speaker 10: he has some kind of special ability, how are you
16:18
Speaker 10: going to be able to go out and appreciate this?
16:19
Speaker 10: And you're talking about a layer of fog nancy as well,
16:22
Speaker 10: because that's going to settle between your view of the
16:25
Speaker 10: sky and yourself your position relative.
16:28
Speaker 11: To the sky.
16:29
Speaker 10: All right, So it's not just simply that it's overcast.
16:32
Speaker 10: It's like you begin to think about fog that's perhaps
16:35
Speaker 10: over there. It's kind of you know how they use
16:37
Speaker 10: the term nancy, a blanket of fog. You begin to
16:40
Speaker 10: think about that. So that's even going to further obscure
16:43
Speaker 10: your view. Yeah, I guess I don't know. Maybe he
16:46
Speaker 10: has special powers that we don't possess. I just don't
16:49
Speaker 10: see the validity in this assertion.
16:51
Speaker 1: So I'm looking at this.
16:52
Speaker 2: The cloud cover on Saturday, November twelve, twenty twenty two,
16:56
Speaker 2: in Moscow, Idaho, cloud coverage, the height of dominant cloud
17:02
Speaker 2: layer very very thick and overcast. That night there is
17:08
Speaker 2: not only overcast, but ice and fog. And you know
17:12
Speaker 2: what I think would be a fantastic courtroom demonstration. And
17:16
Speaker 2: of course Tara Malik high profile lawyer joining US side
17:20
Speaker 2: of this jurisdiction, Tara, wouldn't it be a great demonstration
17:24
Speaker 2: to turn off all the lights in the courtroom and
17:28
Speaker 2: try to recreate the conditions maybe with possibly an overhead
17:35
Speaker 2: projector of some sort of the stars in the moon.
17:38
Speaker 1: How little you could see that night. That would be
17:41
Speaker 1: tough to do.
17:43
Speaker 2: Maybe there's some sort of a satellite picture from that night.
17:47
Speaker 2: I bet there is that could be achieved by the
17:50
Speaker 2: state to show the jury, maybe from the US Weather Service,
17:57
Speaker 2: how overcast it really was that night.
18:01
Speaker 1: And for him to be out at four a m.
18:04
Speaker 1: Stargazing what a saka let me just say b s
18:11
Speaker 1: technical legal term. I mean, is this really happening?
18:15
Speaker 3: Tar?
18:16
Speaker 9: I mean again, this is a weak alibi that's being
18:20
Speaker 9: put forward. And I agree if there's a way to
18:22
Speaker 9: demonstrate or show a picture about what this guy looked
18:25
Speaker 9: like that night, I would certainly think that would help
18:29
Speaker 9: the prosecution's case in poking holes in this alibi defense.
18:33
Speaker 2: Guys, take a listen to what the judge and the
18:35
Speaker 2: prosecutor had to say about the stargazing alibi.
18:39
Speaker 5: The way I understand this.
18:42
Speaker 7: Is and this is the ali not knowing how.
18:51
Speaker 9: Quote he was out driving through the late night and
18:55
Speaker 9: early one as a November flag.
19:00
Speaker 8: Too.
19:01
Speaker 5: Whistober that West now say?
19:03
Speaker 2: Is that.
19:05
Speaker 5: His ally as.
19:06
Speaker 7: You are now driving around that night work. Hey, we
19:12
Speaker 7: do that already and that is aliliar, so he What
19:17
Speaker 7: defendant has still failed to do is to comply by
19:22
Speaker 7: the nineteen n By nineteen and I were Court twelve
19:25
Speaker 7: point one. It specifically requires a defendant to provide identifying
19:31
Speaker 7: natings of witnesses who will be called to support the alleli,
19:35
Speaker 7: along with their addresses.
19:37
Speaker 1: Okay, it's hard to make out what Judge Judge is saying.
19:41
Speaker 2: I'm not stuttering. His name is judge John Judge. It's
19:45
Speaker 2: hard to make out what he's saying. You know, he's
19:47
Speaker 2: kind of tilted down. I'm just grateful that they let
19:50
Speaker 2: a camera be in the court and so we could
19:52
Speaker 2: hear and see a little bit of what's going on.
19:55
Speaker 1: He says.
19:56
Speaker 2: The way I understand this is and this is the
20:00
Speaker 2: this is the judge talking the so called alibi.
20:05
Speaker 1: The judge says, the so called alibi. Don't say that
20:10
Speaker 1: in front of the jury, Judge, Judge, don't. He goes
20:14
Speaker 1: on to say, the way I understand this is, and
20:17
Speaker 1: this is the.
20:18
Speaker 2: So called alibi, not really an alibi. The judge said
20:23
Speaker 2: that not me, his word's not mine. Not really an alibi,
20:26
Speaker 2: but quote, he was out driving during the late night
20:30
Speaker 2: and early morning hours of November twelveth two thirteen, twenty
20:33
Speaker 2: twenty two. The judge is commenting on the alibi. He
20:38
Speaker 2: is calling it a so called alibi, and he's also
20:41
Speaker 2: stating it is quote, not really an alibi, because it's
20:45
Speaker 2: not it's not that said. The prosecutor comes right back
20:52
Speaker 2: in after that and states that even though he's claiming
20:57
Speaker 2: he was out driving, the defense is not complied with
21:01
Speaker 2: the law, Tara Malik.
21:04
Speaker 1: The law is that if you are presenting an alibi, you.
21:08
Speaker 2: Are specifically required to identify witnesses or corroboration to support
21:16
Speaker 2: your alibi, along with their addresses, and the state has
21:20
Speaker 2: to do this too, with all of their witnesses, so
21:24
Speaker 2: that the state can.
21:25
Speaker 1: Test the alibi.
21:27
Speaker 2: In other words, speak to the witnesses, test the scientific evidence.
21:33
Speaker 1: Let me pose you a question, Tara.
21:37
Speaker 2: Since there's not going to be a witness to state
21:41
Speaker 2: they saw Coburger out driving around that night, let's just
21:44
Speaker 2: cut the chase.
21:44
Speaker 1: It's not a witness.
21:46
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if they're going to use cell phone data
21:51
Speaker 2: to suggest Coburger was elsewhere at the time of the
21:55
Speaker 2: murders looking at the stars, because that elsewhere is out
21:59
Speaker 2: in the middle of.
22:00
Speaker 9: Yeah, it seems like that they're going to rely on
22:03
Speaker 9: cell phone data to say he was out at a
22:05
Speaker 9: park stargazing.
22:07
Speaker 1: But you know, again, where is this park.
22:11
Speaker 9: And is the park within the route of you know,
22:13
Speaker 9: the secuitis kind of route that we've already know and
22:16
Speaker 9: talked about that he took to get over to the victims' homes.
22:22
Speaker 1: So there's a lot to be seen here.
22:24
Speaker 9: And it seems like the defense is also saying, we
22:28
Speaker 9: still don't have the discovery that we need to get
22:31
Speaker 9: all this information out and to support our alibi. Not
22:36
Speaker 9: a great position to be in, and again it seems
22:39
Speaker 9: like a weak alibi to me. The other part of it, too,
22:42
Speaker 9: that the prosecutor said when they said you know he
22:46
Speaker 9: was out, was that we already knew Coburger was out.
22:50
Speaker 12: Listen Coburger's official alibi claims quote mister Coburger was out
22:54
Speaker 12: driving in the early morning hours of November thirteen, twenty
22:57
Speaker 12: twenty two, as he often did to hike and run
23:01
Speaker 12: and or see the moon and stars. He drove throughout
23:03
Speaker 12: the area south of Pullman, Washington, west of Moscow, Idaho,
23:07
Speaker 12: including well why we park. To further solidify his alibi,
23:10
Speaker 12: Coberger said he plans to offer testimony from a CSLI
23:14
Speaker 12: expert to show that he was south of Pullman and
23:16
Speaker 12: west of Moscow at the time of the murders and
23:19
Speaker 12: that he did not travel east on the Moscow Pullman
23:21
Speaker 12: Highway in the early morning hours of November thirteenth, twenty
23:25
Speaker 12: twenty two.
23:25
Speaker 1: So what does that mean?
23:28
Speaker 2: That means that Brian Coburger intends to call an expert
23:31
Speaker 2: to the stand to testify that his Brian Coburger cell
23:35
Speaker 2: phone was outside Moscow on the night the students were murdered.
23:41
Speaker 2: Joining me right now is a veteran in cyber security,
23:47
Speaker 2: Bill Slater, cybersecurity expert at IT Security Consultant.
23:54
Speaker 1: Bill, thank you for being with us. What does this mean?
23:58
Speaker 1: What are they saying? What do you expect to happen?
24:01
Speaker 9: Sure?
24:02
Speaker 11: Well, one of the things that that occurs when you
24:07
Speaker 11: have your cell phone, even if it's turned off, it
24:10
Speaker 11: will ping towers and that's on the cell phone grid.
24:16
Speaker 11: So they're they're going to try to prove that his
24:21
Speaker 11: cell phone was pinging towers that were not in the
24:24
Speaker 11: location where the crime occurred. The other piece of evidence
24:29
Speaker 11: that I think would be extremely interesting to relate would
24:34
Speaker 11: be the data recorder that's installed on every modern vehicle
24:40
Speaker 11: in the last six or seven years, so that there's
24:46
Speaker 11: a there's a hard drive in there that indicates what
24:51
Speaker 11: what the car has been doing, and that a lot
24:55
Speaker 11: of people view that as a breach of privacy, but
24:57
Speaker 11: that has been used to investigate crime. So I would
25:02
Speaker 11: try to relate both of those. But the other thing
25:05
Speaker 11: I'll mention real quick is anytime you have digital data,
25:08
Speaker 11: that data itself can be altered and you need to
25:13
Speaker 11: show a chain of custody that the data has not
25:17
Speaker 11: been altered. So that's another consideration.
25:20
Speaker 2: From what I am gleaning from what was said in
25:23
Speaker 2: court in the last hours Bill Slater, Guys, Bill Slater,
25:26
Speaker 2: cybersecurity expert, is that the defense is going to call
25:30
Speaker 2: one a cell phone expert to offer information regarding cell
25:37
Speaker 2: phone tower pingings as you just described, and a radio
25:42
Speaker 2: frequency expert to corroborate the cell phone expert. So what
25:48
Speaker 2: does that mean a radio frequency expert, Well, all of our.
25:52
Speaker 11: Cell phones operate on radio frequencies, and so they would
25:58
Speaker 11: be looking for that expert to say that not only
26:01
Speaker 11: did the cell phone ping these towers, but it pinged
26:05
Speaker 11: it on the frequency that the cell phone was rated
26:11
Speaker 11: to ping on. So it's like it's like a signature.
26:15
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm just a JD. I'm not a cybersecurity expert.
26:19
Speaker 1: What are you saying? Could you say it in a
26:22
Speaker 1: different way.
26:23
Speaker 11: Sure, all of our cell phones are radio transmitters because
26:28
Speaker 11: they're they're wireless, and that's how they talk in the network.
26:33
Speaker 11: The way that it talks is I won't get into
26:37
Speaker 11: the physics of it, but basically it's it sends out
26:42
Speaker 11: radio frequencies. Uh, it sends and receives signals on radio frequencies.
26:49
Speaker 11: So the person that they want to cooperate that would say, yes,
26:56
Speaker 11: the pinging on the cell phone towers matches the radio
26:59
Speaker 11: frequent of his phone.
27:01
Speaker 1: Okay, that made better sense to me.
27:03
Speaker 2: So the radio frequency used at the towers equals or
27:09
Speaker 2: compatible sympatico with the radio frequency his phone would have
27:16
Speaker 2: been using. Okay, So is it correct to state Bill
27:20
Speaker 2: Slater that a radio frequency expert could corroborate a cell
27:26
Speaker 2: phone data expert?
27:27
Speaker 1: Or are they one and the same.
27:29
Speaker 11: They're not one and the same. And the radio frequency
27:34
Speaker 11: expert would be supporting the data expert who would be
27:38
Speaker 11: reporting the the timing of the receipt of the signals
27:44
Speaker 11: in this area.
27:45
Speaker 2: And anybody on the panel jump in. We've all been
27:48
Speaker 2: to the area, We've seen the area. The defense is
27:52
Speaker 2: arguing that Coburger was driving south of Pullman, where he
27:56
Speaker 2: goes to school at Washington State University, and west of Moscow.
28:02
Speaker 2: Defense claiming Coburger a driving south of Pullman, and that's Pullman,
28:08
Speaker 2: Washington and west of Moscow, Idaho, quote as he often
28:15
Speaker 2: did to hike and run or see the moon and stars. Okay,
28:23
Speaker 2: the two towns are only ten miles apart.
28:28
Speaker 1: Now, Bill Slater put that in your mind. The two towns, Pullman.
28:33
Speaker 2: And Moscow are only ten miles apart, So really quick
28:37
Speaker 2: drive compared to his long, circuitous route he took home
28:43
Speaker 2: when he turned his cell.
28:44
Speaker 1: Phone back on.
28:47
Speaker 2: Another curious thing about the stalking and everybody, I want
28:51
Speaker 2: you to jump in. According to data we've heard about,
28:57
Speaker 2: cell phone data is placing him in and around the
29:01
Speaker 2: murder scene multiple times before the murders, so that could
29:08
Speaker 2: constitute a stalking claim. The defense will have a perfectly
29:13
Speaker 2: innocent sounding excuse for that. But it is curious, is
29:18
Speaker 2: it not? If not probative proves something that he was
29:21
Speaker 2: going back and forth by their home and then suddenly
29:25
Speaker 2: they're dead and he's out looking at the stars. So
29:28
Speaker 2: what about that route that they are claiming to build
29:33
Speaker 2: slater If there's only ten miles between the two spots
29:39
Speaker 2: where he was allegedly looking at the stars and the
29:44
Speaker 2: murder scene, can a cell phone tower differentiate between the
29:49
Speaker 2: two locations?
29:50
Speaker 11: Yes, absolutely it can, And it's come to light since
29:55
Speaker 11: the whole Edward Snowden thing of twenty fourteen that the
29:59
Speaker 11: only time your cell phone is not tracking you is
30:02
Speaker 11: when you take the battery out, and a lot of
30:04
Speaker 11: people are unaware of that, Nancy. They think if they
30:06
Speaker 11: turn their cell phone out off that they're not trackable,
30:10
Speaker 11: and that's not true. The only way that device cannot
30:15
Speaker 11: track you on towers is to remove the battery so
30:21
Speaker 11: they can't talk to the towers.
30:22
Speaker 1: The judge double down on Coburger in court in the
30:26
Speaker 1: last hour, saying you've got to give us a witness or.
30:30
Speaker 2: The evidence you're bringing on to corroborate this, what do
30:33
Speaker 2: I think It is no witness at all. It's going
30:36
Speaker 2: to be cell phone data, The defense claims places Coburger
30:41
Speaker 2: somewhere entirely different than the King wrote address. Isn't it true,
30:46
Speaker 2: Caitlin Hornick, that Coburger we can prove turned his phone
30:51
Speaker 2: off and on the night.
30:53
Speaker 1: Of the murders.
30:54
Speaker 8: Just a yes, no, yes, absolutely.
30:56
Speaker 1: Two forty two. His phone is on at his apartment
31:00
Speaker 1: in Pullman. I went there.
31:02
Speaker 2: It's about an eight minute drive from the murder scene,
31:06
Speaker 2: eight to twelve minutes. To forty seven, he turns his
31:09
Speaker 2: phone off. Who on this panel turns your phone off
31:12
Speaker 2: when you're going driving in the middle of the night.
31:15
Speaker 2: I would keep mine on just in case I had
31:17
Speaker 2: a nine to one one. Anyway, he turns his off.
31:20
Speaker 2: We know that, and that is irrefutable. I'm gonna circle
31:24
Speaker 2: back in a moment to Bill Slater, who says, you
31:26
Speaker 2: got to take your battery out of your phone to
31:29
Speaker 2: be untraceable just turning it off. Hey, we know you're
31:33
Speaker 2: doing that. To forty seven.
31:35
Speaker 1: This guy is up and about turning his phone off.
31:38
Speaker 1: Three point twenty nine.
31:40
Speaker 2: Not cell phone, but video surveillance from a nearby home.
31:45
Speaker 2: A residence shows a white sedan passing the King Road
31:49
Speaker 2: address that looks oops just.
31:52
Speaker 1: Like his white Elantra.
31:54
Speaker 2: For zero four, the sedan returns and stops in front
31:59
Speaker 2: of the King Road address. Four twenty sixteen minutes later,
32:05
Speaker 2: the white sedan scratches off, taking off.
32:09
Speaker 1: Like a bat out of Hell at a high speed,
32:12
Speaker 1: leaving the King Road address.
32:15
Speaker 2: And then twenty eight minutes later, and for me, it
32:19
Speaker 2: was about an hour drive four forty eight a m.
32:24
Speaker 2: Twenty eight minutes later, that phone is turned back on
32:28
Speaker 2: and it's pinging south of Moscow, Idaho State Highway ninety five.
32:35
Speaker 1: I took that drive Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
32:49
Speaker 2: To Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath
32:55
Speaker 2: My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit series, Body Back,
33:01
Speaker 2: and most important for me right now, FORENS expert and
33:06
Speaker 2: death investigator Joe Scott.
33:09
Speaker 1: He's between a rock and a hard spot.
33:11
Speaker 2: I want you to analyze everything Slater has told us,
33:14
Speaker 2: but also we are poking a little bit of fun
33:18
Speaker 2: at the moon and the stargazing alibi. But think about it,
33:22
Speaker 2: what else is Anne Taylor, the defense lawyer, gonna say
33:25
Speaker 2: he was the party with all of his friends that
33:28
Speaker 2: ain't happening.
33:29
Speaker 1: They got to come up with something to make sense
33:32
Speaker 1: to a jury why he may have been out driving around.
33:37
Speaker 2: The only thing they can do is refute the cell
33:39
Speaker 2: phone data because that video surveillance.
33:42
Speaker 1: I don't think it's Scott is car tagged.
33:44
Speaker 10: No, it doesn't. But that's all they can do, Nancy,
33:47
Speaker 10: isn't it? You know, when you begin to think about it,
33:50
Speaker 10: they can. They're money in the waters with all of
33:53
Speaker 10: this digital back and forth. Here's the one thing that
33:58
Speaker 10: they cannot overcome. Get this number in your mind, five
34:04
Speaker 10: point three seven octillion that goes to his DNA profile.
34:12
Speaker 10: That means that the chances that it was somebody else
34:16
Speaker 10: are at that range. It's amazing, isn't it. It came
34:20
Speaker 10: off of the snap, Nancy.
34:22
Speaker 1: That's exactly where the DNA was found.
34:25
Speaker 10: Yeah, and I don't think that he was necessarily, you know,
34:30
Speaker 10: planning on this, But listen, I don't know if you
34:34
Speaker 10: could hear that, but this has got and I'm fascinated
34:37
Speaker 10: by this. I have been since the case. This little
34:41
Speaker 10: ring right here where the snap actually actuates, it's a ridge,
34:45
Speaker 10: and so if you're actuating it with your thumb and
34:49
Speaker 10: you drag your thumb across it. Anything can be collected
34:52
Speaker 10: in here. We think about touch DNA. If he's got sweat,
34:56
Speaker 10: you know, that's coming off of his hand, it could
34:59
Speaker 10: be deposited there. Both are sources for DNA, ones richer
35:03
Speaker 10: than the other. But you know, when you begin to
35:05
Speaker 10: think about these numbers, Nancy, and just to put it
35:07
Speaker 10: in perspective, I'm not a real fine math guy, but
35:12
Speaker 10: that's twenty twenty seven zero's, Nancy. That's an amazing number.
35:18
Speaker 10: And so the reason I'm saying this is that I
35:21
Speaker 10: don't think they have anything else. And they can parade
35:24
Speaker 10: all of the experts up there that they want to,
35:26
Speaker 10: but the one thing you can't get away from at
35:29
Speaker 10: the end of the day. Yeah, they don't have the knife,
35:31
Speaker 10: but they've got this sheath and his DNA is on it.
35:36
Speaker 10: And that's a heck of a mountain for them to
35:38
Speaker 10: have to climb, you know, relative to this. And one
35:42
Speaker 10: more thing, and I'll shut my mouth. The brutality of this.
35:46
Speaker 10: You know, you use the term he murdered for people
35:49
Speaker 10: a little while ago, Nancy. This was not murder. This
35:53
Speaker 10: was pure on butchery using this combat knife as a
36:00
Speaker 10: k bar. This is something that our troopers have used
36:03
Speaker 10: since just prior to World War Two. Marines are famous
36:06
Speaker 10: for it. It's a combat knife. It's a fighting knife,
36:09
Speaker 10: all right, It's made for that purpose. And there when
36:13
Speaker 10: all of that is said and done, and we see
36:17
Speaker 10: the interior of that house and we see what kind
36:20
Speaker 10: of butchery was perpetrated on these poor kids, they better
36:25
Speaker 10: damn well have something else because that dog ain't gonna
36:28
Speaker 10: hunt because the jury is gonna be put into position
36:32
Speaker 10: to observe all of this, and then you're gonna get
36:34
Speaker 10: somebody with a PhD in DNA sciences and they're gonna
36:39
Speaker 10: put them up on the stand. And I don't know.
36:41
Speaker 10: I don't know what the defense can put up there
36:45
Speaker 10: that can thwart that particular attack on the part of
36:49
Speaker 10: the defense.
36:50
Speaker 1: Hey, Scott, you've testified it in so many cases.
36:53
Speaker 2: And when I would prepare cases for trial, I'll get
36:56
Speaker 2: my own case ready rock solid, right then I would
37:00
Speaker 2: think about what they were going to do and how
37:03
Speaker 2: I could fight it. Do you remember under Reagan he
37:06
Speaker 2: came up with the Star Wars defense. We were going
37:07
Speaker 2: to shoot down missiles before they ever hit our homeland,
37:12
Speaker 2: the US. That's what I try to do so I'm thinking,
37:16
Speaker 2: what are they going to do and how can I
37:18
Speaker 2: destroy it? They are going to attack the DNA, the
37:23
Speaker 2: science itself, which you know five point three seven Octilian.
37:27
Speaker 2: I think it's more people that have ever in history
37:32
Speaker 2: that we know. I've lived on Earth, right, Okay, so
37:36
Speaker 2: it's him. But what they could do is attack DNA
37:39
Speaker 2: science in general. But they could attack chain of custody
37:42
Speaker 2: of the DNA. They are likely to pull an OJ
37:46
Speaker 2: claiming that OJ Simpson claiming that the cops wanted a
37:51
Speaker 2: defendant so badly they decided to depend it on Coburger,
37:54
Speaker 2: but also the placement of the knife and the genesis
37:58
Speaker 2: of the knife, Scott. They could claim, hey, yeah, I
38:02
Speaker 2: went to a gun and knife show and I.
38:04
Speaker 1: Picked up a knife like that and I tested.
38:07
Speaker 2: It and I put it back and some other dude,
38:10
Speaker 2: I always use a sod defense.
38:12
Speaker 1: Some other dude did it. Must have used that knife.
38:15
Speaker 1: That's where they're going to go.
38:16
Speaker 10: I think, yeah, I agree with you, and I've thought
38:19
Speaker 10: I've put a lot of thought into that relative to
38:21
Speaker 10: gun and knife shows, you know, and the idea that
38:25
Speaker 10: he would randomly and you know, you guys in law
38:29
Speaker 10: use this term reasonableness is that reasonable?
38:32
Speaker 2: Nancy to Bill Slater, a cybersecurity expert, jump in, Bill.
38:37
Speaker 11: Yeah, I've studied this case a great deal and it's
38:40
Speaker 11: occurred to me from the very beginning that not only
38:43
Speaker 11: was he a PhD candidate in criminology, I think the
38:47
Speaker 11: mindset of the young man was that he was going
38:50
Speaker 11: to commit the perfect crime and get away with it.
38:54
Speaker 11: So I think people are this is not a normal person.
38:57
Speaker 11: This is a person that had iudied crime extensively and
39:02
Speaker 11: knew what succeeded and what didn't succeed. So we're not
39:06
Speaker 11: talking about a normal individual here. He knows our criminals think,
39:10
Speaker 11: you know.
39:10
Speaker 2: Joe Scott jumping off what Bill Slater said, I want
39:13
Speaker 2: to talk about very quickly, the nav system. The twenty
39:18
Speaker 2: fifteen Ilantra that Coburger was driving had an optional repeat
39:24
Speaker 2: optional nav system navigation system, and we just saw what
39:27
Speaker 2: a nav system can do in court with Alex murdog right,
39:33
Speaker 2: it destroyed the defense placing him at the crime scene
39:37
Speaker 2: at the time of the murders.
39:39
Speaker 1: So what do you do with that? What can we
39:42
Speaker 1: improve with the nav system?
39:43
Speaker 10: Joe Scott, Well, when they do the data dump on
39:46
Speaker 10: this thing, and again, you know, parse out all of
39:50
Speaker 10: that information that the car is recording. There's no way
39:54
Speaker 10: to really shut this thing off. It's going to be
39:57
Speaker 10: I think that it's going to be damning information. It's
40:00
Speaker 10: interesting that that did not come up in this alibi issue.
40:04
Speaker 10: You know, we're talking about phones and all these sorts
40:06
Speaker 10: of things. So I think that that's going to be
40:08
Speaker 10: a big piece of this to validate, to validate their suppositions.
40:14
Speaker 2: So we're waiting to find out if that Elantri did
40:17
Speaker 2: have a NOV system. We're understanding that the twenty fifteen's
40:21
Speaker 2: NOV system optional. But you know what, I think I'll
40:25
Speaker 2: go out tonight and gaze at the mint of the
40:27
Speaker 2: stars and try to figure it out. Let's stop and
40:31
Speaker 2: remember American hero Lance Corporal Donovan Davis.
40:35
Speaker 1: Just twenty one.
40:37
Speaker 2: Lance Corporal Donovan Davis died in a helicopter crash with
40:41
Speaker 2: four other Marines Feb Seven, twenty four. He leaves behind
40:47
Speaker 2: a loving family, father, Greg, sister of Madison. American hero
40:53
Speaker 2: Lance Corporal Donovan Davis. I want to thank all of
40:58
Speaker 2: our guests for being with us tonight, but especially to
41:01
Speaker 2: you for being with us tonight and every night. Nancy
41:04
Speaker 2: Gray signing off I'll see you tomorrow night six, at
41:07
Speaker 2: nine o'clock sharp Eastern end.
41:09
Speaker 1: Until then, good night friend,