Latest / Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield / Springboks STUNNED! All Blacks Move to World #1 - Victor & JK React

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Springboks STUNNED! All Blacks Move to World #1 - Victor & JK React · Rugby Rivals - Sir John Kirwan & Victor Matfield

0:00
What the hell happened, Victor?
0:01
He's a bit overconfident, he's a bit arrogant.
0:04
I think it is a wake up call for South Africa.
0:07
I think if you're an old black to win in quarterback, there's not easy...
0:11
In New Zealand, you should be number one in the world.
0:14
Do you see the rugby championships as a two-horse race?
0:16
This competition will help us win the next World Cup.
0:20
I'm still looking forward to that either part, T-Spencer, I must say.
0:23
Your biggest risk is, I think, your team's old.
0:26
André is 31, he's younger than Bob Barrett.
0:34
Thanks for the time, boys.
0:36
I'm flying tomorrow and I was just thinking...
0:38
I can't tell you guys, I'm not coming on the show.
0:40
I didn't want to look bad.
0:41
That's what makes...
0:43
It's important that we're on the morning here in Sydney, Australia.
0:46
It's 6 o'clock in New Zealand.
0:48
It was the only time you're available, Victor, but we're not going to let you get off the show.
0:52
You're not going to let me this week.
0:54
Let's get this over.
0:56
I'm so pleased you're wearing that...
1:00
I'm so proud, I'm so proud, South Africa.
1:03
Yeah, nice.
1:04
What happened?
1:05
Yeah, exactly. What the hell happened, Victor?
1:08
I could not believe I've never seen a game like that before.
1:13
No, you know what, they came out.
1:18
I mean, the first training minutes was like,
1:21
OK, this is a team on the next level.
1:24
But remember, we talked about it last week.
1:29
South Africa is not New Zealand, we're not Ireland.
1:32
And it's difficult to say because I've played in a team where the goals were...
1:39
We were really dominant and we started off very conservative.
1:45
We had a certain DNA and then we evolved our game.
1:50
And we got it right.
1:53
But somehow, I think we had the right decisions,
1:57
the decision makers in the right position to still be able to be in a final,
2:02
you're up 24 or something, then give one box kick in the whole first off.
2:08
And then in a second or a few go, listen, we've 20 points to 8.
2:12
We don't have to play rugby, let's just be conservative, let's kick in the corners.
2:17
But I think yesterday, look, in that first off, I looked at it and I thought,
2:24
I've never seen South Africa play with the width that we've played.
2:28
And I mean, it was unbelievable.
2:30
We scored beautiful tries.
2:33
It was so easy to get me maintain, it was so easy to get over that garbage line.
2:38
But yeah, I'm a cyclist as well.
2:41
And in cycling, they always say you only got so many matches to burn.
2:45
And unfortunately, you only got so many matches.
2:48
Doesn't matter how fit you are, you only got so many matches to burn.
2:52
And I think as South African, our DNA, we need to use our matches in the right way.
2:59
And it's a bit overconfident, there's a bit arrogance, I don't know.
3:04
But I just thought we played way too much rugby.
3:09
After we were 20 to no up, we didn't have to play rugby.
3:13
We could have just kicked it in behind them.
3:15
I don't think Australia's got the game to threaten you at this stage from their own 22.
3:22
They had team where Rasi was when he started with a box where, you know what,
3:29
they do a few things right.
3:31
They've really disciplined.
3:33
They don't make mistakes.
3:35
And when you make mistakes, they'll punish you.
3:37
And that's what they did.
3:39
So the African played too much rugby and they'd second half, gave him turnovers, gave him opportunities.
3:44
And then all of a sudden, the crowd went quiet, the pressure came on to the spring box.
3:50
And that's what happened in the game.
3:52
And then all of a sudden, everything went wrong.
3:54
It looked to me, Victor, like there was no specific game plan to take,
4:01
you know, we'll scale turn out of the game in two-poor early.
4:06
Like let's run them early.
4:08
And I think it worked better than expected to be fair.
4:12
But it looked to me like, you know, you mentioned the matches to Bernat.
4:16
It looked like you actually don't have the fitness levels to play that style of football for 80 minutes.
4:25
But when you look at the second half, right, a couple of things.
4:28
And I think Cia set it after the game.
4:31
I think you got a bit soft around the break now, firstly.
4:36
And secondly, you actually played pretty well in the second half.
4:40
You created the same opportunities.
4:42
But then you're 50-50 passes, the error rate, you know, I mean, the intercepts come from errors.
4:49
It was just really interesting. And you're bench.
4:51
And I was thinking about, I was thinking about the fart squad, you know, the bomb squad, right?
4:56
And actually, I was thinking about the difference between who's coming on now
5:02
and who came on during the World Cup and during those moments, right?
5:07
They're different players.
5:08
I reckon some of these guys that are coming on don't have the experience yet to be good and fluent.
5:14
I'm still just trying to find their feet, I reckon.
5:16
You've got these young guys coming in up front, right?
5:19
So I think that the bench for the last few games has been outplayed.
5:25
Like the Australian bench was way better than your bench.
5:28
So I wonder whether, I wonder whether Russi needs to look at whether, you know,
5:34
the bomb squad needs to be incredibly experienced to make a difference
5:38
or whether they're just taking for granted that it's going to happen now.
5:42
Yeah. And I'm saying it.
5:44
And I'm talking about overconfidence, maybe arrogance.
5:49
I mean, even our fans, our supporters, our players, we all, I mean, we believe in what
5:55
every Russi is doing. We believe in the squad.
5:58
I mean, beforehand we played golf on Friday with George Triggan and South Africa.
6:04
There's a thing going around about the five teams we can select.
6:09
But do you want to select five teams?
6:12
I'm still not quite there.
6:13
Or do you want to say, listen, this is my 15 base player.
6:17
So this is my 23, maybe 25 players.
6:21
They might base players and I need them in big games.
6:24
I mean, you've got a hundred pull on in your squad.
6:28
You playing Australia that's just lost out against the British eyes, Lions.
6:34
How do you have a guy that's won you two World Cups, not at least on the base?
6:40
I mean, morning level brilliantly in that first off.
6:44
But when the pressure came on, that's when you want a guy like Andre, listen,
6:49
go on, just go calm things down.
6:52
I mean, 22-12 up.
6:54
We're in the 22, we're between the two teams.
6:57
You don't have to play rugby.
6:58
Just keep getting behind them.
6:59
Keep getting to the 22.
7:01
We try to play, you just say, pause all of a sudden,
7:05
all the pressures on us.
7:06
And I think that's where we're probably just missing out at the moment.
7:10
Yes, we want to grow a squad.
7:12
We believe in our squad.
7:13
Russi believes in giving this youngest opportunity putting them under pressure.
7:18
And I mean, in the pause I came through.
7:21
This is one game they didn't come through.
7:24
So yeah, are we maybe too critical now?
7:30
But I mean, it was, I think it was a wake up call for South Africa.
7:36
I think we're not so far ahead in front of everyone else that we think.
7:42
And we need to make sure when we're going to big taste matches,
7:46
we need our base players out there as well.
7:48
I was thinking about, I was thinking last night about how I would think about it
7:53
if I was Russi.
7:54
If you take the emotion out of it, Victor, if you take the emotion out of it,
7:59
you actually created five or six opportunities in the second half.
8:04
You know, there was a reaction.
8:06
The reaction just was just a bit panicked, you know, 50, 50 passes.
8:10
Take the next route.
8:11
You had them in five and sixes.
8:13
So when I looked at the cold heart of it, I'm going,
8:17
if it was me, and I, you know, I wouldn't even be able to do
8:20
as bootlaces up as far as his success, as a coach versus mine.
8:24
But when you look at the cold heart of day, you go, okay,
8:28
do I need to relook at my changes?
8:30
You know, Cia was you, I mean, it's a Beth mate was unbelievable.
8:35
He was running further than the loose forwards.
8:38
Cia goes off, right, and the game changed with it.
8:42
Do you leave Cia on for long?
8:43
And do you look at your changes?
8:45
Like I said before, if you watched,
8:47
you would have been incredibly proud of Esteban.
8:49
I thought he was your father's a devil.
8:51
He ran everywhere.
8:53
He was unbelievable.
8:54
He had this want, you know,
8:56
in fact, he was out running some of the other players,
8:59
which should have been embarrassing at time.
9:01
Like, you know, he'd make a charge down there and he'd chase the kick.
9:04
So if the other thing I wanted to ask you is,
9:08
I've been reading quite a bit about it.
9:10
And I don't think I'd change that team.
9:13
You know what it's like when you lose a test match.
9:16
And I know what I read, you know,
9:19
Russi said, oh, there could be changes.
9:22
He's already spoken to the team of the change room.
9:24
But they'll be hurting so much.
9:27
I don't know if I would change the team.
9:29
I'd give them another crack.
9:31
Because if you think it's the best team,
9:33
then that hurt you would take a week.
9:36
You've lost.
9:36
Do you know what it's like?
9:37
I would want to play the next week.
9:39
Oh, I mean, I know in Russi,
9:42
and he said it after the press conference.
9:44
The first thing is the coaches will look at themselves.
9:47
And are they managed?
9:49
But I mean, you mentioned it.
9:50
I think we need to have a look at our bench.
9:53
We definitely don't have the same impact at the moment
9:57
from the bench.
9:58
We don't have the bomb squad that we had a year ago
10:02
or for the last four years.
10:04
When that three full guys come on, everyone's like,
10:06
woo, I mean, we didn't have it in the test match.
10:10
We didn't have it against Italy as well.
10:15
So I think they, we need to have a look at it.
10:20
And then again, I'm very much on having
10:25
some of the experienced guys there,
10:28
especially in critical positions, where
10:31
when the gang gets tied just to calm and down.
10:36
I mean, you said it.
10:38
I think we were on the trial at three, four times.
10:40
We could have run away with it again.
10:42
I don't think Australia beat us.
10:45
I think we beat ourselves by just making
10:47
too much mistakes in the second half.
10:49
So it's such small margins of really having
10:54
a fantastic test match.
10:56
And I mean, again, at halftime, we looked at the game.
11:01
I was going on about the width that we were playing on.
11:05
Some of morning level spouses, Grant Williams
11:07
spouses, the width that we got outside them.
11:11
How easy we got over that on the storm
11:13
because of the width that we played with.
11:15
But in the second half, because of that width,
11:18
all of a sudden, we didn't get to the breakdowns.
11:20
All of a sudden, our forwards would just
11:22
that state too slow to get to those breakdowns.
11:25
And all of a sudden, all the turnovers,
11:27
they got opportunities.
11:29
My main team got to the side.
11:32
And that's just where I felt.
11:34
If we had a little bit more experience,
11:37
if we had 100 ball odds, a very little room.
11:40
One of those scars.
11:41
It's just a little bit more experience on the bench.
11:43
Coming on in that critical position,
11:45
just to calm things down, 22-12.
11:48
And I know we wanted to put a big score on them.
11:52
Boys, let's win a test match.
11:54
With 10 points hit, we don't have to play
11:56
between the two teams.
11:57
Kick in behind them, let them play.
11:59
Let's force them into errors,
12:01
other than us making mistakes and us making the play
12:04
and making the errors.
12:06
Do you think that this expansive style
12:10
that they're trying to create?
12:12
Do you think it's...
12:13
If they get the balance right, do you think it's the future?
12:16
Or do you just don't think it's part of your DNA?
12:18
I've set it to you.
12:19
So I played in a team with a Bulls
12:22
where we started our very conservatively.
12:25
And then we went into two years where no one could stop us
12:30
because we had that back-off forwards.
12:33
We could play tactically very well,
12:37
but we could always go and play the width of the game as well.
12:41
So you want to have it.
12:43
I mean, in that first off, when I watched, I thought,
12:46
they're not threatening us on attack.
12:48
It's so easy for us.
12:49
So it works.
12:51
It's just to get that balance right to no win,
12:54
to have a go at it and win to...
12:57
It's not needed now.
12:58
Let's save energy, let put the pressure on them,
13:01
let's make them play.
13:02
So it's just decision-making.
13:04
It's a small, but I mean, if you look at our attack,
13:07
attack has never been as good as it is at the moment.
13:10
It's fantastic when it's going well.
13:13
Look, for 22 minutes, I'm going, wow.
13:17
You know, like I've talked about your pace out wide,
13:20
I thought they were really, really good for 22 minutes,
13:27
relaxed a wee bit.
13:27
And I actually thought they were good in patches
13:30
in the second half to be fair, you know?
13:32
And you can't take away what Joe is building in Australia.
13:39
I mean, this is a different team that don't go away.
13:44
You know, there's this kindling of belief
13:50
within that Australian side.
13:52
So, but I think like I tried to look at the cold heart
13:57
of the day, if I was, you know, if I was coaching,
14:00
and yeah, I don't know if they should go away
14:03
from that style of football.
14:05
You're right, they just need to find that balance.
14:07
If you go to all the great coaches,
14:09
all great coaches that took over teams that struggled,
14:15
actually go just a little bit more conservative.
14:18
And that's what Joe's been doing with this team.
14:21
They're not playing this expansive game
14:23
that we use to offer Australia,
14:27
but they don't make mistakes.
14:28
They're very, very clinical and what they're doing.
14:32
They're kicking amazes on the dot.
14:34
The defense is very good.
14:35
They're very good at the breakdown.
14:37
And when they get an opportunity of turnovers,
14:40
I mean, they've got the speed,
14:41
they've got the magic to go score of that.
14:44
And I mean, they just, I think what was the penalty score?
14:48
The penalty must probably have been 12 versus three.
14:52
And I think the only penalty we got was probably
14:54
from the two, three scrams we got.
14:56
So I mean, he's got them very disciplined.
14:59
They know what they're doing.
15:01
And they're very difficult to beat
15:03
because they don't make errors.
15:05
Victor, tell me what happened in the line-outs
15:07
because that's normally a strength
15:09
and you've got such great players there,
15:10
but it really fell apart for you.
15:12
I need to have a look at it again.
15:15
I've said it before, I think even,
15:16
I know you haven't looked,
15:18
it's probably the best five lock in the world.
15:20
And that first of, he was so good with ball in hand.
15:24
I mean, doing all those option plays,
15:28
almost like a Ritalic dead for New Zealand,
15:31
when that golden era was Richie McCorn, Dan Cora there.
15:37
And he was really good.
15:39
But at line-out, I couldn't understand
15:41
why they struggled so much.
15:43
And for me, if you look at the Australian back,
15:46
World's Garden is not a jumper.
15:48
They actually only have two jumpers in that back.
15:51
And South Africa goes to a four and five man,
15:54
the old day.
15:55
If you go to a seven man against that,
15:58
they only got two jumpers.
16:00
They must always be an option open.
16:02
So for me, I couldn't understand
16:05
why South Africa went to the four and a five man the whole time
16:08
when Australia only got two jumpers in the line-out
16:11
that can contest.
16:12
So yeah, I just, probably they're planning
16:16
into the game, wasn't spot on.
16:19
Would you make changes, Victor?
16:20
What would you do this week?
16:24
I would definitely, one or two changes.
16:26
I mean, Kobe is ready to come back,
16:28
I'm in the Linde, I'll definitely put back in.
16:35
I'm a big 100 pull out fan, I'm a big Sasha fan.
16:39
I'll have both those guys in the mix as well.
16:43
Four pack, it's for me.
16:46
I think the starting pack did really well.
16:49
On the bench, all my changes.
16:52
I think I'll have a Thomas, the two way they experienced.
16:54
I mean, he was the best player in Europe.
16:59
For him coming off the bench,
17:01
he's a, I think it was one of the top stri-scoreers as well.
17:05
When you get into the 22, he's so good at the trial line.
17:08
And then, I mean, if you wanna have a bomb squad,
17:11
you need to have AFS same Monday.
17:13
So it was really good.
17:15
I think most of it really made a difference.
17:17
Once he came onto the field, we didn't lose one line-out.
17:21
So it's all been interesting to see what they will do.
17:24
This is new territory for South Africa.
17:26
You know, you've been rolling everyone for so long.
17:31
Now, having the dig deep from an unexpected loss,
17:34
we probably, as you see, may have been overcompetent.
17:38
What about the mental side of it?
17:39
How do you think they're gonna react as players?
17:42
Well, we say that, but I mean, both World Cup side,
17:48
one, they've lost in the pool stages.
17:51
Britisher eyes, lions, they've lost the first test match.
17:55
So I don't think Russia will panic.
17:59
And what John said as well,
18:02
if you go and look at the test match,
18:05
even in that second half, there was opportunities for them
18:09
to actually run away with the test match.
18:12
It's just about getting that balance drives
18:15
of when to really have a full goal,
18:19
and when to maybe just save a little bit of energy,
18:22
play the percentages, get in the right areas,
18:26
play the pressure game that South Africa
18:28
is the best at in the world.
18:29
That's what we know, that's our DNA.
18:32
Don't go completely away from that.
18:34
We've got this attacking game we can play,
18:37
but let's keep that pressure game in there as well.
18:41
Are we showing enough respect to Australia?
18:43
I mean, we spoke last week, right?
18:46
We spoke last week, and I thought,
18:50
well, this is going to be a really interesting test
18:58
for the South Australian team,
18:59
and they passed it with flying colors.
19:02
They did, and I mean in that second half,
19:05
once they got a sniff, they were unbelievable.
19:09
And like I said, or Josephine has done,
19:12
I mean, he's beat an England away from home.
19:16
He came very close to beating Richard Iceland.
19:19
He's beaten South Africa at altitude.
19:23
He had Alistair Park, they haven't beat South Africa,
19:25
he says 1963.
19:29
So I mean, this is a great Australian team,
19:31
and we need Australia to be great.
19:34
But I think what he's done is,
19:37
he's got them to know exactly,
19:39
they're not trying too many things,
19:43
but what they're doing, they're doing really well,
19:45
they're very disciplined, they don't make mistakes,
19:48
they don't give you a turnovers,
19:50
and yeah, they don't make mistakes.
19:54
Well, obviously wasn't a great weekend for you, Victor,
19:57
but a little bit better for you, Jacob.
19:59
Yeah, yeah, it was.
20:01
Yeah, I thought I thought the all black.
20:02
I mean, you go to Córdoba,
20:04
and you win by 49 points, you've got to be happy.
20:07
There was a period in the play where I,
20:11
where the game was about you.
20:12
Just with my 15 points.
20:15
scored 40, scored 40, scored 40, scored 40.
20:20
I thought there was a period in the game
20:23
where the crowd was getting behind Argentina,
20:26
and we were making a few errors,
20:30
and that's where I thought the experience of Cody
20:34
sort of got us back into the game, you know.
20:36
I don't know what you thought, Victor,
20:38
but when they were kicking for the corner,
20:40
when they're only sort of seven points ahead
20:44
or something, whatever it was,
20:45
like I thought, oh, I would have taken that shot at goal
20:47
to make it 10, but they must have felt something on the field.
20:52
I really think that Cody has, you know,
20:56
I guess in New Zealand, people are sort of divided
20:59
because he's played full black, played 10, played full,
21:01
but I just think the way he's playing lately,
21:04
some of his improvements with A is goal kicking,
21:07
but also his line kicking.
21:10
I mean, at one stage, you're under pressure,
21:12
and he kicks that puts it out on the five-yard mark.
21:14
So was it a, you know, I think if you're in all black,
21:18
and I think if you raise a Robinson,
21:19
you come off that field and go, you know,
21:21
to win in quarterback is not easy,
21:25
but there was still plenty of work to do, you know.
21:28
And so for me, yeah, let's tick that box and move on.
21:32
I think that, you know, I think Proctor
21:35
at Centre is really learning his role,
21:37
and this is what I get back to you about Victor.
21:40
I don't think, I don't think Test Matches
21:42
for some people come straight away, you know,
21:46
I think they need time to understand the speed,
21:48
time to understand the decision making.
21:51
So I think, I think that, you know,
21:53
I really think Proctor's a great player.
21:55
I think he's getting exposed a little bit defensively,
22:00
which he'll fix up.
22:02
And so, yeah, I think we're losing a couple of halfbacks.
22:06
So I thought the halfbacks came on, did okay.
22:09
So yeah, yeah, tick the box and move on.
22:12
Nothing really to talk about about our performance,
22:14
when you think Victor.
22:16
Ah, I thought it was great.
22:18
Firstly about Bowdoin Barrett.
22:20
I mean, we'll play for the year twice.
22:26
I don't know why people got it.
22:29
He's an unbelievable team.
22:32
I think he's a much better team than a 15.
22:36
It's always better playing against him if he's not a 10.
22:40
And again, like you said, maybe not the goal kick
22:44
of that Dan Cora was, but I mean,
22:47
now he's kicking really well.
22:50
But I just think the balance that he brings to again,
22:53
when he kicks, when he plays, I mean,
22:56
when he takes the line on the speed
22:57
that he's got, is unbelievable.
23:00
And how funny is it?
23:02
New Zealand go three more tries.
23:04
And that's why, again, when I go back to South Africa,
23:08
we didn't score one more try against Australia.
23:10
And I mean, New Zealand go out.
23:14
I think they got their balance right from wing to play.
23:17
We just to keep the boy behind them.
23:19
Not the fence of kicking, attacking kicking.
23:22
Could it be behind forcing them to turn around?
23:25
And then they forward back using the energy to score tries.
23:29
When you get into that 20 to go at them,
23:32
use your mall, go around the corner,
23:34
and yeah, it'll be effective in the journey to it.
23:38
Two more tries.
23:39
You wouldn't have been happy with that, Victor.
23:40
I think the other thing, I thought Adi was quiet.
23:44
And I just wonder whether we're still getting used
23:46
to that loose forward mix.
23:49
Right?
23:50
I'm relaxed that he had acquired again,
23:54
because we need him to have a really loud game,
23:55
especially as the tournament moves forward.
23:59
But I just thought that loose forward trio was interesting.
24:05
Is that the right balance?
24:08
Do proceed, could if he started?
24:09
And whether they're quite similar.
24:12
And you just got to find your balance.
24:13
I reckon when you've got to loose forward trio,
24:16
who's going to be a bit loose?
24:17
So who's going to be a bit tighter?
24:19
So Adi was a bit tighter.
24:22
I didn't see him carrying as much as he normally does.
24:26
I don't know what you thought, but I'm just so excited about.
24:31
And this is weird for me, Victor.
24:33
So don't get me wrong.
24:34
Think that I love you guys.
24:36
But I think Fabian Hollund is just a real find.
24:42
His work rate, he's running around the fields.
24:46
He's making his tackles.
24:47
I think we've got a real gem there
24:50
that can build into a world class lock, you know?
24:54
You all talk about the big body.
24:56
I was actually very impressed with Faye at the lock last year.
25:01
I thought he was outstanding.
25:04
I don't know what you guys are going to do
25:06
with CTT gets back, because I mean,
25:09
he must get in there somewhere.
25:12
I don't know if you'll play him at 8,
25:16
I don't know, will he go to blindside?
25:20
And so we are going to openside.
25:23
But yeah, it's a nice problem to have,
25:26
but yeah, at this stage it's working.
25:30
You said you want, you guys want a big body in there
25:34
can enforce that can have an impact.
25:38
And yeah, at the moment it's working.
25:40
So I'm still looking forward to that either part,
25:44
but I'm still looking forward to it.
25:48
I think CTT will come back at 8,
25:52
and I think, you know, I think Arty.
25:54
Will they be able to openside?
25:57
I think so, yeah, I think he's, I think, you know,
26:00
when he's played there this year, he's been exceptional.
26:03
And I just like that as a balance.
26:05
I like when he can loosen up a wee bit.
26:08
And you know, we need a big six.
26:10
We need a big six if we're going to compete in the lineup,
26:13
like you see it against, especially against South Africa.
26:15
You know, you need those line out options, as you would know.
26:19
So, you know, I think that I was really impressed
26:23
with our scrum, that's going to be another good challenge
26:26
when the, you know, the game moves forward.
26:28
The Argentinians and traditionally great scrummages
26:31
and our scrum put them under huge pressure
26:34
in the first half.
26:35
You know, it was good that the young guys came on
26:37
and got tested at wee bit as well.
26:38
So, yeah, what do you think Riccata?
26:41
I think we've got two different approaches
26:43
from New Zealand and South Africa.
26:44
You know, New Zealand is picking its best team
26:48
in trying to win test matches
26:49
and doing whatever they need to do to win test matches, you know,
26:52
so if they need to grind it out, they grind it out.
26:55
South Africa's got this approach at the moment
26:57
where they're trying different teams,
26:58
they're trying different things.
26:59
You know, a lot of experimentation to get the balance right
27:02
when it's time for the World Cup probably.
27:05
What do you think of those two different approaches?
27:07
Because they're quite different.
27:09
It's difficult because I mean, after my own opinion,
27:13
so I've only played in teams where we actually
27:16
exactly knew was the first 15 or the first 22.
27:23
And whoever came in knew they were just standing in
27:26
for the guys coming back.
27:27
But I mean, Rossi doesn't believe in it.
27:31
And you never know who he's going to pick.
27:33
It's almost like the freaks.
27:35
You never know who they're going to pick on a Saturday.
27:38
And yes, this is one failure now.
27:42
But so far, he's been very successful.
27:45
He's one World Cup's offset it.
27:48
I think this is the best spring book
27:50
era we've ever had in South Africa.
27:53
We've never been so successful.
27:55
So it's very difficult after one test match
28:01
to see whatever they're doing in Iran.
28:03
So yeah, I think it's nice to have guys
28:07
in one guy get injured.
28:08
You're not worried because the next guy can just step in.
28:11
But I do believe that I like it.
28:15
Especially in the key positions that you need.
28:19
Even if you change it around it,
28:20
you've got someone on the bench.
28:22
But I just believe that if you've got a guy,
28:26
and I keep going on it, I've got it.
28:29
And if you've got a guy like 100 ball out,
28:31
the one-year World Cup's, how on him in that team?
28:35
Samuel, if he's fit that he's ready to go,
28:38
you need him, are they starting or you need him on the bench?
28:41
Four precious situations if you need him.
28:45
Yeah, I think, I don't know if I necessarily agree,
28:48
Victor, because I think that your biggest risk is,
28:51
I think your team's old.
28:54
Under a 31, you see, I'm going to go to Barrett.
28:57
Old Ur, right?
28:59
But as a general, as a general thing,
29:01
I think the two teams are in different situations
29:05
around their evolution.
29:09
Spring box of one, the last two World Cups.
29:12
I've got to, let's call them experience,
29:14
because when you get a bit older,
29:16
you've got an experienced side.
29:18
But if you think back to what Rusty's traditionally done,
29:20
in-between World Cups,
29:22
and that's why Victor said it last week,
29:24
we win the championship because we always play our best side.
29:28
So our evolution is probably a little bit more advanced
29:33
and I think what Razor's going is,
29:36
I've got a nucleus of a side, I've got to play them
29:39
so that they get what Victor said,
29:40
they get that feeling they know what each other's doing.
29:44
So I think sometimes we're a bit conservative
29:48
around playing guys in positions.
29:50
I think Rusty has done this in the past.
29:52
So I think what Rusty's thinking about is,
29:55
I might have some players that will lose their legs
29:59
or quite not make it, so I need to build a squad
30:01
that's going to have that replacement.
30:03
So I think there are two different evolutions at the moment.
30:08
I think the all blacks are going,
30:10
let's settle on a team,
30:13
let's get them to play together, barring injuries,
30:17
so they get that feeling they just know each other
30:19
incredibly well,
30:21
whereas I think Rusty's just in a different phase.
30:24
And he's always done this.
30:26
And it's also, I mean, Razor's if you coach,
30:31
you knew Zealand, you should be number one in the world,
30:33
you're always number one.
30:34
I mean, that's the expectation of the public.
30:37
So as a New Zealand coach,
30:39
you always under pressure to win every test match.
30:43
I think Rusty's in a position that he's done so well
30:47
that even, okay, the people hated yesterday
30:50
and they didn't expect it,
30:52
but the people trust Rusty.
30:54
So you can go out and you can go try things,
30:57
even if things don't really go his way,
31:00
somehow the next week he'll get it to turn around.
31:03
So if we don't turn around next week,
31:06
then all of a sudden the pressure will come up.
31:08
If he turns around next week again,
31:11
everyone will still be behind him.
31:12
We believe in him.
31:13
I mean, he's the best coach in every coach of Africa
31:16
and we go on where I think Razor's there,
31:19
we still want to show, listen,
31:21
I deserve to be in this position.
31:23
I want to win every test match.
31:24
I need to be the number one team.
31:27
I need to be at 30% above all other teams in the world.
31:32
We actually have to.
31:33
We actually have to, Victor, if we're not winning world cups,
31:37
then we have to be number one.
31:39
No, it's important for our brand and important for our country.
31:43
It's important for our players.
31:45
And like I said, world cups are really different.
31:47
So a question about Rusty.
31:50
So will that patience last till the next world cup?
31:54
He's got till the next world cup regardless of what he does
31:57
just because of what he's done in the past?
32:01
Yeah, I think so, but I think he'll still go this around.
32:06
The one thing that I think that he needs to just make sure
32:10
is the way we want to play.
32:13
I think in the last two years,
32:16
especially with Tony Brown joining him,
32:20
we definitely win the little bit more expensive.
32:24
And I mean, again, in that first off, it worked.
32:27
But if you think back to last year,
32:30
the test match we lost against Argentinos,
32:32
actually exactly the same.
32:34
scored three tries in the first team, 15 minutes,
32:37
and then all of a sudden things went bad
32:40
and we lost the test match.
32:42
Then we came to South Africa, turned around and we smashed it.
32:45
So it's just about getting that balance.
32:49
We're going a little bit away from,
32:52
if we play the pressure game,
32:54
we probably, that's the way we know how to win a test match.
32:59
But he wants to evolve.
33:01
He wants us to be the best in the world every year,
33:04
not just at world cups,
33:05
that we need to do so to pick.
33:07
So I think we just need to trust the system.
33:10
And yeah, let's hope to come good.
33:15
No, I think it will look like for me,
33:19
there's like, once again,
33:21
think about it in the cold, non-emotional light of day,
33:26
then there was some actually real good stuff
33:28
in the second half.
33:29
A lot of good stuff.
33:30
Just make one for that ball.
33:32
But once again, I think the most improved international side
33:37
that I've seen is Australia.
33:39
You know, they are absolutely a force to be reckon with.
33:43
And I'm so happy that they are,
33:45
because I think that, you know,
33:47
when you see them playing to that level,
33:51
the interesting thing for me was, you know,
33:54
you guys didn't score a points after 22 minutes.
33:56
It felt and looked like the first Lions test.
34:00
But what I've been impressed with about Australia
34:05
is besides O'Connor,
34:06
which I think is just a great, great story, you know,
34:09
it's just a great story.
34:10
Was that they seemed to be getting
34:14
parts of their game better week in, week out.
34:17
So they are a side that's improving incredibly well.
34:22
You know, the spring block needs to play to their,
34:25
to their very best next week,
34:26
but I think you'll find a better Australia side as well.
34:30
I do think they've got some issues at line out,
34:33
you know, just with skeleton, not being a great jumper,
34:37
and they're loose forwards are great features,
34:39
but they're not big, big men.
34:41
They're going to lose their captain,
34:42
look like he did his knee, Victor,
34:44
I don't know, you're on the sideline.
34:45
He looked in pretty bad shape.
34:47
I went up to him and went to go congratulating,
34:51
because I thought he was outstanding.
34:54
He stood up in the big moments.
34:55
He came through and unfortunately got injured.
34:58
I went to just to congratulate him,
35:00
but it looked like it's pretty bad.
35:05
They took him up with a golf court as well.
35:08
So he will definitely be a big class for them.
35:12
He brings something special to the team.
35:15
So yeah, well, you'll be able to replace him.
35:17
But again, I think when you win
35:21
that confidence grow within that team,
35:24
especially when you get a victory like this one,
35:26
at Ella Spock, and then those small things
35:30
that you were trying, all of a sudden,
35:32
they start working, you start believing in those things,
35:35
they get momentum.
35:37
So they're definitely on the up,
35:38
and the momentum is on their side.
35:42
But they will definitely face a South African team
35:47
that will be back against the wall.
35:49
So again, I said it last week,
35:52
we had our base when we back against the wall.
35:55
We know a team that got out and gives people 50 points,
35:58
and that's just the problem
36:00
what I felt again going back to our game.
36:04
I wonder if I should record your next golf game
36:15
with Georgie Gregorne.
36:16
There'll be Lippie, mate.
36:21
You know what I want,
36:23
you know what I want a month's worth of dinners.
36:24
He'll be going up three days to the wall.
36:27
Friday on the 18th hole,
36:29
I had it, but we had to play the last hole
36:32
at seven o'clock.
36:34
But I had a three-meter punch,
36:36
two punch from three-meter with a seven-eye
36:39
to win against Georgie Gregorne,
36:40
and I missed it, and he won the game.
36:42
I had three-buttons.
36:44
So that all started there,
36:46
and our Peking team lost against Australia as well.
36:49
That's the worst thing.
36:51
So we really had a bad weekend in South Africa.
36:54
Do you see the rugby championships
36:56
a two-horse race between South Africa and New Zealand,
36:59
or is it not like that anymore?
37:03
Well, I still don't see Australia winning.
37:11
I think it's going to be very difficult
37:13
to stop New Zealand at this stage.
37:15
I mean, they've won away from home.
37:20
Plains South Africa twice in New Zealand.
37:24
Whoever's going to win this rugby championships
37:28
need to get forced to get it.
37:30
For me, Ricardo, I think that,
37:34
if you had of asked me at the beginning of the line series,
37:37
I would have seen two-horse race at the end of the line series.
37:40
Like Victor said, like,
37:42
people in the crowd might think,
37:43
oh, that was a big loss, you know,
37:46
for South Africa, but there's small margins.
37:49
It's like two or three percent difference.
37:51
And I think that if you don't bring your game against Australia,
37:54
you'll lose.
37:56
I think Argentina, if you don't bring your game, you lose.
37:58
And that's great for the championship.
38:01
So I still think South Africa, the team to beat, you know,
38:05
Victor's playing that down and putting the pressure on us,
38:07
but they're world champs.
38:09
They've got all the pressure.
38:10
Like, everyone's coming for them.
38:12
They are the benchmark because they win World Cup.
38:18
So for me, it's going to be a really good competition to win.
38:27
And this competition will help us win the next World Cup.
38:31
You win this with the South African side.
38:34
You know, South Africa won't lose another game,
38:37
unless through attitude and through just letting the game take
38:41
a wee slip away, right?
38:42
The next lot of games will be one or two points.
38:46
You know what I mean?
38:47
Like, it's going to come down to that.
38:48
And that's what we need.
38:49
So I don't think it's a two horse race.
38:51
I think you could win the championship and lose a game.
38:55
Right?
38:56
Yeah.
38:57
So everyone could lose a game.
38:59
I'll get down to the wire.
39:00
So I think it's fantastic for the game because I'm really excited about it.
39:04
Yeah.
39:05
I mean, we all said it the whole time.
39:07
We need Australia to be strong and it's fantastic to see.
39:10
I mean, the World Cup is then two years' time.
39:13
Just a momentum that's going to build behind this Australian team.
39:18
And they're just going to get better over the next two years.
39:21
So it's actually fantastic to see them back there competing.
39:26
I mean, to see George Reagan face after that game was just priceless.
39:31
You were so happy.
39:33
You couldn't believe it.
39:35
But yeah, it's great.
39:38
I mean, walking up to full wall.
39:40
What they beat through over the last few years.
39:43
And now, it's not just this one game.
39:46
They were really competitive against their British eyes lines.
39:49
I think they were so close to winning that series as well.
39:53
I tell you what I wanted to mention as well.
39:55
I think that, you know, and I keep talking about this.
39:59
I thought Ben O'Keefe was outstanding.
40:02
And I don't know what you thought, Victor, as the losing side.
40:06
But I thought he was outstanding.
40:08
I thought our referee in Argentina was a little bit pedantic.
40:13
And the two different, two different refereeing styles make such a different spectacle.
40:20
Like that was a really, really enjoyable game of rugby.
40:25
So they're for Australia.
40:26
But then the pedantic referee against Argentina made it really clunky.
40:30
I was a bit worried about it because, you know, that's when Argentina
40:34
is really at the best when you can frustrate the opposition.
40:37
And sometimes that frustration comes through the rest.
40:39
But I thought Ben O'Keefe was outstanding.
40:42
What did you think, Victor, as a losing side?
40:45
Yeah, I think you get those revs, you know, here I was really confident.
40:52
And you actually enjoy getting them.
40:55
And you know, doesn't matter who they're captains, you won't be able to influence it.
40:59
And I think Ben O'Keefe is getting to that.
41:02
He's very confident on the field.
41:04
He makes his decision.
41:06
The crowd can't get into him.
41:08
The captains can, he's open for them to talk to him.
41:12
But they can't influence him.
41:14
So I really think he's a really good referee at the moment.
41:18
He's very confident.
41:19
And he makes the decisions.
41:21
And he allows the game to flow.
41:23
So I thought he had a really good game.
41:25
Although there was a lot of penalties against us.
41:28
But I think Australia was really good at the breakdown.
41:31
I think when we're praising referees, it's probably a good time to stop.
41:35
That will be the last time, especially if we lose.
41:39
Yeah.
41:40
Thanks for fronting up, Victor.
41:43
And thanks for getting up at 6 o'clock in the morning, JK.
41:46
That was rivals for another week.
41:48
Can't wait to see what happens this weekend coming up.
41:50
Thank you, guys.
41:52
Well done, New Zealand.
41:54
I said looking 40 to 4.