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Faith Over Fear - When God Seems Silent: How to Trust He's Still Near · KFM On Demand

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  Speaker 1: Life Audio.
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  Speaker 2: I can promise you that our Lord Jesus walks the
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  Speaker 2: stormy waves of our stormy stories with us and for us,
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  Speaker 2: even if we can't see them.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast, where we discuss
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  Speaker 1: powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear, big and small.
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  Speaker 1: I am your host, Jennifer Slattery, and I found few
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  Speaker 1: things feel more painful than reaching out to someone we
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  Speaker 1: love and receiving no response. We might wonder if we've
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  Speaker 1: done something wrong, if they're upset with us, or if
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  Speaker 1: something has changed in our relationship. And when we desperately
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  Speaker 1: need to hear from God, his perceived silence can trigger
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  Speaker 1: those same fears. But what if we've misunderstood what his
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  Speaker 1: silence maybe means? And what if we are misunderstanding his
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  Speaker 1: heart towards us when we're in those places? Today, we're
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  Speaker 1: continuing our series on hearing God to discuss those times
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  Speaker 1: when it feels like God stopped speaking to us. And
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  Speaker 1: I've asked a woman I adore to join me, Judy Dunnigan,
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  Speaker 1: author of The Loudest Roar, Living in the Unshakable Victory
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  Speaker 1: of Christ, to discuss how to remain confident and restful,
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  Speaker 1: relaxed in God's love even when we can't hear his voice. Judy,
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  Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us again. This is
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  Speaker 1: your second time back. And I think you're going to
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  Speaker 1: have to come on a third because I heard you
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  Speaker 1: just turned in a book that I'm probably going to
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  Speaker 1: be interested in. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Jennifer, thank you. I'm so excited to be with
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  Speaker 2: you today. Thanks for inviting me.
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  Speaker 1: Judy Dunigan is an author, speaker, and former acquisitions editor
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  Speaker 1: at Moody Publishers who served in women's ministry for 20 years.
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  Speaker 1: She's passionate about helping people deepen their relationship with Jesus,
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  Speaker 1: discover the power of scripture, and grow in their faith.
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  Speaker 1: And hearing from God is an important aspect of that.
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  Speaker 1: Can you share a time, Judy, when you desperately needed
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  Speaker 1: to hear from God? And he seemed silent.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I'd love to share that. And this happened several times.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I'm in my 60s. Okay. But there was
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  Speaker 2: one time back when our family was moving a lot
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  Speaker 2: from my husband's job. And we moved from Michigan to
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  Speaker 2: Colorado when our youngest daughter was just going into seventh grade.
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  Speaker 2: And Jennifer, your mom, I think there's no worse time
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  Speaker 2: to move a child than when they're starting middle school.
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  Speaker 2: And it was so hard for our daughter that we
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  Speaker 2: started to see it impact her health. And I was
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  Speaker 2: full of so much fear and anxiety, crying out to
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  Speaker 2: the Lord. She'd be at school and I'd be just
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  Speaker 2: in the word. I'd be trying to pray the Psalms,
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  Speaker 2: which usually calms my heart. But there was a lot
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  Speaker 2: of other things going on in our family at that time,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of storms. And I really felt like God
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  Speaker 2: was silent and he didn't see me, didn't really know
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  Speaker 2: or care about what I was going through. And I
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  Speaker 2: got to go to a getaway retreat that a friend
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  Speaker 2: invited me to. And we had a lot of time alone.
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  Speaker 2: And being in the mountains, it's easy to feel closer
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  Speaker 2: to the Lord. But one day I was outside by
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  Speaker 2: myself on a bench, just looking at the mountains and
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  Speaker 2: just praying and crying out. And at that time, the
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  Speaker 2: only way I could really calm my heart, especially when
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  Speaker 2: I went to sleep, but even while I was out
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  Speaker 2: in the mountains that day, I had AirPods on listening
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  Speaker 2: to worship music. And right before a certain song came on,
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  Speaker 2: and I hadn't heard the CD before. It was actually
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  Speaker 2: back in the CD days.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I heard God. It felt like he whispered over me, Judy,
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  Speaker 2: be still. Just be still. My heart was just, oh,
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  Speaker 2: I was all over the place. And right after that,
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  Speaker 2: the old hymn, Be Still and Know, song came on.
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  Speaker 2: And I started listening to the lyrics. And to this day, Jennifer,
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  Speaker 2: it was as if I really feel it was as
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  Speaker 2: if God was singing that song over me. It's be
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  Speaker 2: still my soul. And one of the lines of the
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  Speaker 2: lyrics says, the waves and winds still know his voice
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  Speaker 2: who ruled them while he dwelt below. And for some reason,
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  Speaker 2: just that phrase, that sentence shifted something in me. And
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  Speaker 2: I knew it was from a story in God's word.
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  Speaker 2: And so I was able to look it up and
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  Speaker 2: I'm just going to read a few verses where those
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  Speaker 2: lyrics came from. And the story is Jesus was in
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  Speaker 2: the boat with his disciples and they were just going
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  Speaker 2: across the lake, probably going to the next place Jesus
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  Speaker 2: was going to teach or heal people. Well, Jesus fell
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  Speaker 2: asleep in the boat and suddenly a storm furious squall,
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  Speaker 2: a storm came up and the disciples were terrified and
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  Speaker 2: they woke Jesus up and they're basically like, why are
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  Speaker 2: you sleeping on this watch? They thought they were going
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  Speaker 2: to drown and they were going to be killed. And
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  Speaker 2: so this is found in Mark 4. I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: read a few verses starting in verse 35. That day
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  Speaker 2: when evening came, he said to his disciples, Let us
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  Speaker 2: go over to the other side. Leaving the crowd behind,
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  Speaker 2: they took him along just as he was in the boat.
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  Speaker 2: There were also other boats with him. Furious squall came up,
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  Speaker 2: and the waves broke over the boat so that it
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  Speaker 2: was nearly swamped. Jesus was in the stern, sleeping on
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  Speaker 2: a cushion. The disciples woke him and said to him, Teacher,
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  Speaker 2: don't you care if we drown? He got up. That
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  Speaker 2: phrase right there was in the lyrics of that old hymn.
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  Speaker 2: And for some reason, that day, it just calmed me.
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  Speaker 2: It's like the God who can make a literal storm,
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  Speaker 2: over a sea where waves are coming on a boat
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  Speaker 2: and you think you're going to drown, he can calm
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  Speaker 2: that with a word. Even the wind and waves obeyed
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  Speaker 2: him when he walked this groaning earth. And that's the
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  Speaker 2: same God who cares about the storms that we're going
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  Speaker 2: through in our own lives, that we feel like maybe
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  Speaker 2: he's asleep or he doesn't care, but he's right there
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  Speaker 2: with us. And I'll never forget it, how God used
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  Speaker 2: that to calm my heart and open up a way
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  Speaker 2: that I could trust him more and knew that he
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  Speaker 2: was ever aware of what I was going through and
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  Speaker 2: how worried I was for my daughter.
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  Speaker 1: That's a beautiful story. Such a tender way that he
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  Speaker 1: met you in that time. As you were talking, I
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  Speaker 1: was thinking of two things. The first thing I'm curious about,
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  Speaker 1: how long did that silent season continue before you got
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  Speaker 1: that word?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think we had moved there. It was about
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  Speaker 2: five or six months that I was really worried about her.
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  Speaker 2: And it was getting very serious in terms of her
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  Speaker 2: health issues that she was dealing with because of all,
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  Speaker 2: just everything she was going through as a seventh grader
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  Speaker 2: and the turmoil and being bullied and everything.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, wow.
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  Speaker 2: Lonely in the school. I mean, it's hard to break
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  Speaker 2: into a school in seventh grade or any teenager. And
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  Speaker 2: so I was in the word. I was praying, but
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  Speaker 2: I felt like I couldn't really sense the Lord caring
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  Speaker 2: or his presence or his nearness. And some of it
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  Speaker 2: was because of me. I'm prone to anxiety. I joke
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  Speaker 2: that I think it goes so far back that right
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  Speaker 2: after I was born, I was worried if I even
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  Speaker 2: did that right. I had so much fear as a
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  Speaker 2: child and it kind of calmed down in my 20s.
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  Speaker 2: But when I became a mom, it went through the
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  Speaker 2: roof again because when my babies were sick, I just would.
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  Speaker 2: He's so full of fear because you always think the
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  Speaker 2: worse or fear they'll be snatched and all the things.
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  Speaker 2: And so really a lot of that anxiety, I think
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  Speaker 2: was clouding, even being able to hear from him. And
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  Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's always your fault. Sometimes he is quiet.
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  Speaker 2: And in the storms of this life or the storms
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  Speaker 2: just keep raging and one thing after another, and you
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  Speaker 2: think he doesn't care. He's distant. And that's where for me,
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  Speaker 2: That day he used an old hymn. I think that
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  Speaker 2: was written in... I looked it up, 1752 by Katharina
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  Speaker 2: von Schlegel.
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  Speaker 3: And you said the name, wow.
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  Speaker 4: I don't know if I said it right, but I mean,
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  Speaker 4: I love that those old hymns can reach you. There's
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  Speaker 4: other times I can share three stories at least where
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  Speaker 4: God used old hymns because I was a pastor's daughter
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  Speaker 4: and those are kind of dear to my heart. But
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  Speaker 4: we have incredible worship music now.
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  Speaker 2: And in many ways, that can be a way that
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  Speaker 2: you communicate with God, that you're worshiping him through the
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  Speaker 2: lyrics of the song.
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  Speaker 1: I love that he spoke to you in a way
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  Speaker 1: that you could understand. You had a history with the Lord,
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  Speaker 1: it sounds like, connected to those hymns. I do want
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  Speaker 1: to say, I totally get like when we battle anxiety,
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  Speaker 1: it's not our fault, but our thoughts can get so loud.
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  Speaker 1: And so I wonder if giving ourselves grace to say
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  Speaker 1: when we're in an anxious spiral saying, yeah, it's hard
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  Speaker 1: for anything to break through my brain right now. But
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  Speaker 1: God is still here. He still loves me. We'll put
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  Speaker 1: a link in the show notes actually to that song
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  Speaker 1: because music is a powerful way of really connecting us
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  Speaker 1: with the Lord. What else I liked about what you
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  Speaker 1: were saying, though. So you received several invitations you said
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  Speaker 1: yes to. in order to get to where it fully landed.
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  Speaker 1: And the reason I say this, like I'm thinking of
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  Speaker 1: myself when I'm in a storm, when I am overwhelmed,
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  Speaker 1: I tend to withdraw and isolate. And I love that
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  Speaker 1: you went to a retreat someplace where you could surround
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  Speaker 1: yourself by other believers. You could surround yourself by truth
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  Speaker 1: and worship, I'm assuming. But then also you said, so
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  Speaker 1: you heard the song, it made an impact. And here
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  Speaker 1: I'm thinking like, I would just maybe be like, okay, well,
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  Speaker 1: that's good. And moving on with my day and it
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  Speaker 1: would hit, but it would maybe hit kind of small,
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  Speaker 1: but it's almost like you sensed in that, how I'm
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  Speaker 1: interpreting this, that there was still more. And so you
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  Speaker 1: took that song and then you went to scripture. And
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  Speaker 1: so it's almost like God built the conversation and, And
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  Speaker 1: the reason I wanted to point that out to listeners,
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  Speaker 1: I wonder how many times God issues us an invitation
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  Speaker 1: to go deeper. And maybe we're just not thinking that way, right?
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  Speaker 1: Like it's not on our radar. We're new to faith.
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  Speaker 1: Or maybe we just sometimes I think it takes things to...
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  Speaker 1: sink in. But I wonder for those who maybe are
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  Speaker 1: receiving an invitation that is outside of their awareness, if
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  Speaker 1: there's a practice of just, huh, I wonder if there
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  Speaker 1: was something that God was, a way he was reaching
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  Speaker 1: out to me and then expanding on that later. Oh yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And that's exactly what happened to me. I'll tell you
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  Speaker 2: more about that getaway because as a dear friend, I've
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  Speaker 2: known many years and she knew what our daughter was
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  Speaker 2: going through and just other things in our family. She
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  Speaker 2: was praying for us and she had been invited to
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  Speaker 2: this retreat of maybe six women. And the whole point
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  Speaker 2: was to get in the mountains and hear from the
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  Speaker 2: Lord or spend time with him. And so it wasn't
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  Speaker 2: a big retreat and I'll never forget it. It's in
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  Speaker 2: the mountains as a ministry started by a couple. It
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  Speaker 2: was called Praise Mountain. I don't even know if it's
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  Speaker 2: still going on, but we had our own cabins if
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  Speaker 2: we wanted, which I needed to be alone too. We
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  Speaker 2: were sent out, the six or seven of us as women,
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  Speaker 2: be alone with the Lord and bring something back that's
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  Speaker 2: significant of how he met you. So that was why
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  Speaker 2: I went out there and I'm sitting on that bench
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  Speaker 2: by those crosses. And I'll never forget it. I journaled something,
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  Speaker 2: like a surrender prayer to God about my Kelly, my daughter.
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  Speaker 2: And this was before I heard the song. That happened
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  Speaker 2: the next morning when I was in the cabin, actually.
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  Speaker 2: It wasn't on the bench. It was, doesn't matter. But
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  Speaker 2: that's when that song was played for me. But while
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  Speaker 2: I'm at those two crosses, I prayed kind of a
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  Speaker 2: prayer of surrender. And like, I don't hear from you, God.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know if you're going to heal or I
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  Speaker 2: don't know what your plan is. But I surrender this
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  Speaker 2: to you. And I took a little stick back to...
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  Speaker 2: the women just to share, it had been by those
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  Speaker 2: two crosses. And it changed my life. And God knew
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  Speaker 2: that was waiting for me when my friend Linda invited me.
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  Speaker 2: And just those getaways with God are so significant. The
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  Speaker 2: Lord has opened the door for me to do that
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  Speaker 2: several times when I know I need to get away
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  Speaker 2: and center myself on him and listen and play the
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  Speaker 2: praise music, take my journal. It's changed my walk with
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  Speaker 2: him over and over. That's beautiful.
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  Speaker 1: The other thing, you keep saying like... stay on this event.
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  Speaker 1: But I'm also listening to you. I'm thinking of the
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  Speaker 1: importance of preparing ourselves to hear from him. Sometimes I
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  Speaker 1: can get so busy, especially like on Sunday morning, and
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  Speaker 1: I want to do one more thing before heading to church.
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  Speaker 1: And so I'm arriving at worship late and I'm distracted
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  Speaker 1: and I'm frazzled, or maybe it's my morning Bible time
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  Speaker 1: and I'm Again, busy. And for me lately, I'm sensing,
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  Speaker 1: my spiritual mentor actually asked me, I told her I've
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  Speaker 1: been trying to use, I have a fur baby, Bean,
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  Speaker 1: my dog.
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  Speaker 2: So, and I walk.
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  Speaker 1: Her a lot and I've been trying to train my mind.
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  Speaker 2: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Driving time is Jesus time. Walking being is Jesus time.
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  Speaker 1: And I was telling my spiritual mentor about this and
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  Speaker 1: she's like, well, what are you doing to orient your heart?
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  Speaker 3: That's her phrase.
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  Speaker 1: Like basically, turn myself to position myself to receive from God.
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  Speaker 3: And she suggested that I.
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  Speaker 1: Listened to music actually, as I do. So I think
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  Speaker 1: sometimes it can be helpful if we plan ahead, like
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  Speaker 1: where can I go? That will be quiet. What tools
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  Speaker 1: do I need? Whether it's music or maybe a snuggie
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  Speaker 1: blanket or a cup of coffee.
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  Speaker 3: Is that part of your practice too?
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  Speaker 1: As far as when you're really wanting to connect with
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  Speaker 1: the Lord, how much does preparation play into that?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting you'd ask that because it's also in Mark.
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  Speaker 2: I don't remember if it's Mark 4 or Mark 6,
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  Speaker 2: but I had a mentor that I went to meet
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  Speaker 2: with when I was really struggling. I was a women's
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  Speaker 2: leader at our church and I was getting burned out.
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  Speaker 2: I was exhausted and I went to meet with her
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  Speaker 2: and she's listening to me and she goes, Judy, you
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  Speaker 2: need Kara time. And I go, what's Kara time? And
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  Speaker 2: she said, it's a getaway with the Lord. And then Mark,
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  Speaker 2: there's a time when the disciples had just been out,
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  Speaker 2: like he had sent them out to share about him.
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  Speaker 2: And they came back all excited about ministry, but he
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  Speaker 2: could tell they were tired. And he says these words,
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  Speaker 2: come away to a quiet place and rest a while.
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  Speaker 2: So Kara is an acronym. Come awake, Rest a while. C-A-R-A.
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  Speaker 2: And my mentor said, I'm going to hold you accountable.
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  Speaker 2: You got to have a little getaway with God. And
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  Speaker 2: for me, I could get away on a Saturday. The
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  Speaker 2: way I got equipped or prepared was I knew I
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  Speaker 2: had a music I love that I was going to
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  Speaker 2: play in the car while I drove into the mountains.
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  Speaker 2: I had my journal. I had my Bible. And it
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  Speaker 2: was a precious time with the Lord. And she wanted
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  Speaker 2: to know what day I was going to do that
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  Speaker 2: so she could bury it for me. And it was
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  Speaker 2: so life changing that I brought it back to my
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  Speaker 2: leadership team, the women who were partnering with me in
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  Speaker 2: the ministry and asked them to do that and let
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  Speaker 2: me know when they were going and I pray with them.
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  Speaker 2: So pray for them. And so it's really like a
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  Speaker 2: getaway with the Lord. Now, you can't do that all
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  Speaker 2: the time, but that's one example of the few times
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  Speaker 2: I've done that. I do it about once a year,
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  Speaker 2: I think, where it's intentional, like the whole day and
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  Speaker 2: just to try to hear from the Lord and worship
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  Speaker 2: him and spend time with him. But also, I'm an
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  Speaker 2: empty nester and now retired from working full time. I
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  Speaker 2: love to get up early and I play praise music
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  Speaker 2: and do that first and then enter into either do
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  Speaker 2: a Bible study or read a devotional. And I try
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  Speaker 2: to journal a prayer to the Lord most days. So
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  Speaker 2: it really depends what season of life you're in, though. True, absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: We need to take a break to listen to our sponsors.
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  Speaker 1: When we come back, I would love to hear, Judy,
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  Speaker 1: what are some things you do when your anxiety becomes
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  Speaker 1: really loud to help you recognize God's presence, maybe hear
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  Speaker 1: his voice above all the mental chaos.
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  Speaker 3: So we'll talk about that when we get back. And
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  Speaker 3: we are back.
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  Speaker 1: Judy, when we started this conversation, you talked about how
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  Speaker 1: you have anxiety and most of our listeners do as well.
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  Speaker 3: I do as well.
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  Speaker 1: What do you do when your anxiety is so loud?
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  Speaker 1: It makes it really difficult, if not impossible to sense
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  Speaker 1: God's presence and to hear his voice.
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  Speaker 2: Like we talked about before, sometimes our minds are just
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  Speaker 2: all over the place when we're anxious or fearful. It's
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  Speaker 2: hard to concentrate. So even reading a psalm out loud
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  Speaker 2: is so helpful. I discovered just a few months ago,
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  Speaker 2: our little two-year-old granddaughter had to have a biopsy and
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  Speaker 2: something off her face. And thankfully, she's fine. But boy,
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  Speaker 2: I couldn't sleep. I couldn't think straight. And I went
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  Speaker 2: to Google and I found a prayer book. that someone
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  Speaker 2: prays based on Psalm 91. And it was a narrator
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  Speaker 2: with an English accent, which I find calming. And it
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  Speaker 2: was just like, God just had it there waiting for
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  Speaker 2: me because the narrator first quoted all of Psalm 91.
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  Speaker 2: And so I'm in bed just listening to that, not reading,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: just trying to fall asleep. And then there was this
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: powerful prayer based at Psalm 91. It was remarkable. I've
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: shared that link with a lot of my friends who
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: struggle with anxiety as well. You know, Jennifer, there's a
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: lot of things to be afraid of right now. There's
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: so much anxiety. Anxiety has gone through the roof for
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: so many. And I think that's one thing that's really
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: helped me. And I've already mentioned the music. That's very
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: calming and make my mind concentrate on the lyrics of
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: the song, especially when trying to fall back asleep. That
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: is a phenomenal thing.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: On that, when you say make your mind, so what
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: does that look like practically to make your mind focus
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: on the lyrics?
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: It's just listen to the lyrics. And it really, at
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: least for me, it crowds out all the what ifs
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: when our little toddler was going into surgery for the biopsy.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: That was during the day. And I have a place
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: where I have my quiet time in the morning and
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: I was just in Psalm 91, just reading it out loud.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I wrote a prayer for her based on Psalm 91.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I listened to it. That song, there's different songs that
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: are based in Psalm 91. And so it's being intentional
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: to do all of that. And God's word talks about
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: keeping your thoughts captive to truth. And that is one
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: way I do it, especially for someone dealing with anxiety is, okay,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: I'm going to read this Psalm out loud. I mean,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: famous Psalm 23, read that out loud, calm you. And
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: even like how God used the Be Still song over me.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: I play that more often than you know, so. And
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: I did just finish writing a book. It's just in
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: editing now. But I tell the story about Be Still
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: and the music. And it was fun to write about
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: that so many years later because that little seventh grader
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: I was praying for is now a mama of four
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: and just moved near us. She and her husband. So
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: we're pretty excited to have them close.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I like how you listen to things
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: at night too, because I think for a lot of people,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: that's when the anxiety can get really loud. I think
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: sometimes we can become hyper vigilant when God seems silent,
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: where we begin to like analyze every thought or circumstance
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: thinking that we're going to miss him, especially if we're
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: driven by anxiety. I think we're going to actually going
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: to have an anxious, our initial perspective is some kind
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: of anxious response, right?
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Like what if scenario.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: So how can we shift that from I'm anxious, Pursuing
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: him because I'm afraid he's mad at me and I
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: need to do this. to I'm pursuing him because he's
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: my father and he welcomes me close. So like instead
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: of from a place of fear, more from a place
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: of relationship and I guess trust.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of that can depend on how
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: your parents treated you growing up. I have a friend
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: whose father was so harsh and mean, verbally abusive. And
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: I was recently with her and she really struggles believing
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: that she's not disappointing God to the point she's just
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: overwhelmed with fear about that. And we were able to
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: talk about what a loving father he is, that he
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: loves us unconditionally, that he wants us to come to
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: him no matter what our story is, no matter what
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: we've done. We have full access to our God through
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: prayer and being in his presence as we worship him
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: and we're in his word. And so rather than, you know,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: if there's a fear in approaching God because you're not
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: sure you're worthy or. You think he's angry at you.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: You can be honest with God. Tell him that's how
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: you feel. He knows how you feel and ask him
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: to show you that he is safe and to be
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: able to approach him. There's a verse in Hebrews that
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: says we can approach him in prayer, the throne room,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: and we'll find mercy and grace there. He's the most
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: loving God. And I love to remind people that he
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: loves us unconditionally.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Instead of going down that anxious spiral, like, God,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: you must be mad. You must be displeased. What are
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: some truths you shifted back onto?
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's, again, where the Psalms are so helpful.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: The Psalmist David was in a lot of fearful. situations.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: He wrote several of his Psalms while he was in
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: a cave hiding from Saul, who was wanting to kill him.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: And what I love about David is how honest he
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: was with God in some of those prayers in Psalm 13.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: It says, how long, Lord, how long, how long must
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: I go through this? And it's almost like he's pretty
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: testy with God and he's asking those wrestling questions. And
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure we fully understand we could do that.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: He wants us to come to him. It's like if
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: you're a parent listening and you have a child who's
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: got all this stuff built up and they're afraid to
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: come to you. You want them to come to you
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: with their anger and their hard questions. And it's such
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: a beautiful psalm, Psalm 13. It gives you permission of
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: how to do that. But at the end of that psalm,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: David turns to praise. It's almost like he has to
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: reach back and remember where God was faithful. So I
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: think some of the attributes that mean the most to
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: me is that he's faithful, that our God is always true.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: And I've mentioned that he's loving and compassionate and so
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: patient with us. And for those who deal with anxiety,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I think some of my favorite verses are Philippians 4,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: where we're told, don't worry about anything. Instead, pray about everything.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: Tell God your needs and don't forget to thank him
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: for his answers. If you do this, the peace of
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: God will guard your heart and your mind as you
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: rest or trust in Christ Jesus. I had to cling
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: to those verses as a little girl. That's when I
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: first learned those verses. And it's easier said than done,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: isn't it, Jennifer? Don't worry about anything. Instead, pray about everything.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Sounds a little bit, you want to roll your eyes
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: and say, but I keep praying about everything and nothing's changing.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: And it's okay just to be honest with God and
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: to show your frustration. And he died to give us,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Jesus died to save our sins through his death and resurrection,
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: but save us from our sins, but also to give
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: us full access to him in prayer. Prayer is so
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: much about relationship with rather than just, oh, I've got
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: to say the right words or I've got to only
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: ask him for things. We can enter into prayer through
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: worship and just loving him as well. One of my
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: best friends deals with anxiety as well. And so I
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: wanted to mention this. We text each other probably once
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: a week. She's a grandmother of 14 and I have
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: seven grandkids. So we're busy praying grandmas and she'll be
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: worried about one of them who just broke his ankle
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: in soccer. And she'll text me and say, pray for him.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: She'll use his name. And just knowing my point of
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: bringing that up is to try to have friends who
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: will pray for you and who are similar to you
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: even because there's no judgment. I never go to her
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: like you worry a lot because we're so much alike.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: So it's really sweet to know someone's praying for you.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: We need to take a break to hear from our sponsors,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: but first, two quick things. My newest novel, The Cowboy's
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Surprise Child, is a heartwarming story of second chances and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: unexpected blessings, and it's available for pre-order on Amazon.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: Second.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: We're inviting listeners to join our volunteer Faith Over Fear
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: content planning team. You'll help us address topics relevant to
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: you while bringing greater hope, joy, and peace to others,
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  Speaker 1: including those who are really struggling. If interested, contact me
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: through the link in the show notes. And we're back. So,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about showing up even when we don't think
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: God is speaking or maybe we think he's not going
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: to speak. Talk to me about the consistency, what practices
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you do to continually turning your soul towards him. Well,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: I've shared quite a few of those, but I continually
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: For me, music is huge. I have it playing in
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: the house. I know what songs I love. I created
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: a worship playlist, even for my book, The Loudest Roar
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: on Spotify. And I listen to those songs. They correspond
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: with all the chapters that I'm going to do that
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: for my new book. That has been huge for me
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: because there's such great music out and the lyrics are
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: so profound and it's the way you're worshiping God. And
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: so I do that and I read scripture out loud.
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: I try to pray out loud. I have a I'm
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: so grateful for my husband. We read five Psalms every
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: morning together and pray together for our family. And I
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: know that's a gift, a rare gift, but I'm so
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: grateful for that. And then even just getting out in nature,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I think is incredible to get some exercise and wherever
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: you live, that whatever area you find beautiful to get
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: out and worship him and just be with him, just
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: be quiet and listen. To me, our aspen trees in
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Colorado are beautiful. The sound of them, the beauty of
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: them in the fall. I'll often just have my journal.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: I discovered a pond in one of my favorite parks
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: that I hike in. And so I go there now
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: and just watch the beautiful ducks swimming, sit and just
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: spend time with them. Just being quiet is wonderful. I
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: think it's so helpful in this very distracting world in
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: which we live. Yeah.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: So what I'm hearing too, is you just prioritize that.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes for me, I have to constantly remind myself,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: like life can feel so busy that I think like, well,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: I don't really have the time, but then when I
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: remind myself, how do I not have the time? If
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: he is going to take care of absolutely everything else.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: And if he is the one who meets my deepest
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: needs and, then I'm going to make this time. I
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: know you're on the board of a ministry actually, who's Dr.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Marcus Warner has been on here numerous times. And so
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: I know just from talking to you that you're on
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: the board of deeper walk international. One of the things
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I find helpful is they had, I don't know how
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: long ago they put this out and I'll see if
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: I can find it again to share in the show notes,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: but Emmanuel journaling and where they guide you into this
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: interactive journaling with God. But I want to tell you, Judy, like,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Just this morning, I was having this conversation with God.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: I'm sitting there doing my manual journaling and I'm telling
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: him I'm frustrated because he hasn't been talking to me
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: in the past. It's been a while in my journaling time.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: And it's tempting when I'm frustrated to just not show up. Like,
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: you're not going to talk to me anyway, God. So
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to skip this journaling time. And... move
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: on to cleaning my shower. But I know just like
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: with my husband, right? Like I'm not always going to
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: have this deep romantic moment with him every time we connect,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean I quit going on date nights. Right.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Right. Right. Yeah. And that's where I think his work
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: comes into play because he, It's an inspired word of God.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I have a friend who lost her three-year-old to complications
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: from strep.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: She didn't know Jesus yet. She hadn't even been going
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: to church really. She did when she was a child.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: And her story is so beautiful. But she had someone
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: who came alongside her after his death. He was only three.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: And she said, how about you and I get together
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: and we look at the book of John? And for
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: those who don't yet know Jesus as their Savior or
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: just kind of figuring out this walk with Christ, I
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: think that is an incredible place to start the Gospel
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: of John because it's when Jesus walked this groaning earth
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: and just to see the miracles, but just to see
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: his heart for his disciples who were like brothers to him.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: And my friend Kim came to know Jesus as her
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: own savior because of just dwelling in the word. And
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: that's often how our God speaks to us through his
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Holy Spirit as we are in the word. He has used,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: like I said, that one phrase from that old hymn
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: that was taken from the story of Jesus being asleep
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: in the boat. And I remember I journaled, it sure
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: seems like you're asleep in the boat or could care
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: less what's happening. Where are you?
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: And it's really a part of the walk with Christ
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: to be that honest with him and just seek him
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: and search for him. And because he never leaves us
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: or forsakes us, even if it feels like he has,
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: it's a promise. He will not leave or forsake us.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I'm also wondering, as you were talking and
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: just some of the creative ways we can connect with God,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: for those who especially are new to the faith or
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: really are struggling to sense his heart, maybe they could
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: watch The Chosen, which I've heard a lot of people
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: have said that's really helped them picture. Jesus in a personal,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: relational way. As we close, is there one thing you
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: would say to the person who they're in that storm
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: you were in back when... your daughter was really suffering
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: and they're on their knees, they're begging God, I want
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: to hear from you. And they feel like whether he
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: is speaking or whether their world just feels too chaotic
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: for them to hear him. What would you say to
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: them right now?
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Well, something that changed my heart and drew me closer
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: to Jesus, was to really look at when he walked
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: this earth and how he got up from sleeping in
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: the boat and calmed the storm. There's another scene where
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Jesus is walking on the water in a terrific storm,
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: going towards his disciples. At first, they were terrified. They
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: thought he was a coast and he walked on water
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: and got in the boat with them and then it
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: grew calm and i can promise you that our lord
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: jesus walks the stormy waves of our stormy stories with
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: us and for us even if we can't see him
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: you know i know for a while they were in
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: that storm and they couldn't see you know, Jesus walking
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: on the water. And then they did and they were afraid.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And yet he calmed the storm. And my older sister's
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: been through a lot in her life. And I remember
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: once when I was telling her, I just don't think
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: Jesus cares. I don't know where he is in the
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: storm of my life. And she said, Judy, we'll never
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: suffer as much as our Lord Jesus did when he
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: died on the cross for us. But the night before
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: the night of his arrest, before he got arrested, he
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: was in the garden of Gethsemane, groaning out to his father, God,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: to take the from him. His anguish was so deep
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: that he was sweating drops of blood. We don't even
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: fully understand that. And the death of his sorrow of
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: knowing he was going to die on the cross for
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: us and take all the penalty of all our sin
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: on him. We'll never experience that. And he did that
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: for us. And I also think it's so important to
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: know that we're told in Romans 8 that Jesus prays
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: for us. He intercedes for us to God the Father.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: And in that same passage in Romans 8, we're told
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: the Holy Spirit groans in prayer when we don't have
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: the words to pray. And that just should take our
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: breath away, that the triune God is so aware of
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: what you're going through and the storms you're in that
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Jesus is interceding. The Holy Spirit is groaning in prayer.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: And it's a mystery. I mean, it's God. Like, why
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: is God praying for us? But this earth is a
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: mess in many ways. We've got an enemy who wants
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: to harm us. And thankfully, our God protects us. But
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: we are in a battle. And we've got a God
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: who covers us from all sides and has promised never
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: to leave us or forsake us. So those are the
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: things I cling to when it seems like I can't
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: find them in the darkness or the storms or the anxiety.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that just like hit me deep when you said
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: that he groans, he prays groaning and it just the
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: intensity of emotion that conveys to me is I think
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: I'm going to sit on that for a while after
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: this conversation just to really process through and I'm going
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: to invite listeners actually. Go to Romans 8 and pray
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: through that. Pay special attention to the Holy Spirit's response
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: to us when we don't have the words. The other
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: thing I like about that passage, too, is where it says,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: will not the one who gave us his son also
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: freely give us all things? And that, to me, is
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: a comfort when... God isn't responding in the way I want.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: I know from that passage and from his history, it's
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: not because he doesn't care. It's not because he's callous.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: I don't always understand why, but the proof of his
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: son is that it's not because he's callous. Well, this
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: for joining us.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Jennifer.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: I do want to let listeners know if they missed
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: your previous episode. Actually, I got a link to that
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: because they want to catch your previous episode, but I
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: do want them to know more about your book. It's
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: called The Loudest Roar, Living in the Unshakable Victory of Christ.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Let me read a little about it. Do you struggle
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: with recurring fears, temptations, doubts, or lies that leave you
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: feeling defeated? In The Loudest Roar, author Judy Dunnigan reveals
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: how to stand in the victory Jesus has already won
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: for you. Through biblical truth and practical application, you'll learn,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: this is so good, Judy, you'll learn to recognize God's
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: voice above the enemy's lies, overcome fear, take your thoughts captive,
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: break cycles of sin, and find strength in God's armor.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Discover how Christ's powerful roar can reduce the enemy's lies
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  Speaker 1: to a whisper. We will link to that book in
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  Speaker 1: the show notes, but we'll also link to that episode
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  Speaker 1: because you and I had a really rich conversation as
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  Speaker 1: well about that. And that's everything we're talking about. today,
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  Speaker 1: the one who is with us when we are overwhelmed.
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  Speaker 1: And so to our listeners, I hope this encouraged you
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  Speaker 1: just to keep showing up. And as you do, it's
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  Speaker 1: okay to acknowledge the heart. It's okay to acknowledge the fear.
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  Speaker 1: It's okay to acknowledge the frustration, but may you do
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  Speaker 1: so with the truth of God's word, his character. his promises.
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  Speaker 1: And if you haven't already done so, I encourage you
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  Speaker 1: to subscribe to this podcast. Then you won't miss a
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  Speaker 1: single episode. Share it with your family and your friends.
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  Speaker 1: And until next time, may you live as one who
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  Speaker 1: truly has been set free.