Latest / 10X AI with Julius Neil / AI Won’t Replace Lawyers. It Will Change What They’re Paid For
Transcript
- Julius Neil Buenconsejo: could AI eventually say, Dacio don't sign this contract, because the entire structure is incompatible with your business Dácio: Of course. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: Yes, they can. If you know how Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: to use AI, they can. I have Julius Neil Buenconsejo: hey. Dácio: no doubt about that. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Could AI become better at designing contracts than humans? Because it can stimulate thousands of scenarios humans don't have the cognitive capacity to consider. Dácio: Yes, One day this will come. Yes. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: What should never be delegated to AI in legal architectures? If AI can increasingly write the contract, what exactly are lawyers going to be paid for? Dácio: I'm gonna be quite frankly with you, Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Good day everyone. I'm here with another guest. His name is Daisho. I met him in our LinkedIn group of Oxford cohort diploma for 2027. So he is a lawyer based in Brazil. Daisho, can you introduce yourself to our listeners and viewers? Dácio: Yes, of course. And Julius, thanks for having me here. It's a honor. I wanna say I read like your work. we Before we start talking, we're a lot of fun already. So thanks for Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: having me. And so I'm Deisho or in Portuguese Dacio and lawyer from Brazil. I've been in the profession for about 15, I guess it's 16 years now. And for seven of these years is for pure cross-border business. So that this englobes businesses around the world and and the rest are spending moving around private practice, government and business looking at the same problems from different sides. So I sit Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: in both the sides of the table. And today I work with my consulting firm in cross-border business based in Brazil mostly focus focuses on the side of the exporting part of the business and I don't know if you need some more background but Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: I actually do the cross-border contract contracts parts Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: because I'm a lawyer of course Julius Neil Buenconsejo: haha Dácio: And I would say that Latin, Latin America, I can mostly speak about Brazil because that some parts are different, easier, some but everyone has its kind of special things. But it it's not that it's very complex but it's interesting if know how to navigate And over these 15 years of work taking across every continent except Oceania. I don't know if I speak that properly because it's a word I hardly speak, Oceania. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Uh-huh. Dácio: And that one still on the list also. I would very much Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, thank you. Alright. Dácio: want to be there one day. Outside of the titles, I'm curious. I read a lot, probably more than I should. And I was born right at the beginning of the computer era, so for me it's Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: part of my life. I grew up watching the world change twice and still watching. And I like enjoy life. that part more Matters more than my resume. That's all I can say. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes, yes, that's good. That's good. So now what really made me curious about this as a lawyer, of course, your practice is more on the legal side, right? The legal counsel and all this. And Dácio: Yeah. Yeah. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: then when we met on LinkedIn, you are also enrolling at the University of Oxford, which is a different path and the innovation side. most of the, for me, if it's a law, there's no innovation on that. You know what I mean, right? It's a law. regulations, everything is there. It's already, you know, it's not there that everyone should follow. But innovation side, and then you enrolled in the University of Oxford for the diploma. Why is the sudden change? Why do you want to, you know, to enroll in the strategy and diploma? Dácio: Well I'm curious by nature, so this is with me since I was a boy. And in my career I found myself joining the business side was a urge that I had. And for about seven years I ran a luxury travel boutique that I co-founded. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Hmm Dácio: and other business that my former partner developed with her friend and I was the lawyer and also the partner so I was sitting on both sides of the table at the same time. So the transition was smooth for me. I saw that the laws or contracts or everything about law can can't be that static anymore in a developing Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes Dácio: environment when the news technologies and everything move so fast and so naturally law needs to be at least try to be more fast the change that you see when you are only the lawyer, the problem derives the right form. That was something that I always disliked when I was a lawyer. Now say, come on Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dácio: man, why you did that? Why? With my clients. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, okay. Dácio: I had this friend that he knows he's doing things wrong, Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: you know? And he just dropped things on my table and just say fix it for me, nah no, okay. And I do my best. So and Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: but when you are also the business you try to think different. And I don't like problems in in my business so I started backgrounds. The legal part was the first one, then the business, let's say something like this, when you are Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: a lawyer and business businessman. So that was the transition. And this is how it happened, but Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: Also this was something Julius Neil Buenconsejo: So, okay. Dácio: that was with me too. The spirits. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, all right. Yes, that's good to know. So we now overview how you transition from, you know, from law, which is, you know, a very structured one and then offer innovation and strategy. So let me start with a statement from your one of your posts. The most expensive part of legal work remains the part that happens before the document exists. So that sounds about counter-intuitive in an era where AI can draft a contract in seconds, right? So let me ask you directly. If AI can increasingly write the contract, what exactly are lawyers get going to be paid for? About. Dácio: I'm gonna be quite frankly with you, this always existed. the search mechanisms in the internet they always was there. So people Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: could look to draft or a template of a contract and try to do something. And Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Okay. Dácio: now what we have it's a huge scale of contracts. And companies that offer really good contracts also. So in this standard we are reaching a point that these templates are really good and that is very good. So It's not that we are saying that lawyers is not going to exist. It's not something that it's happening. It's quite the opposite of the Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: the thing. I like to propose a line of thought. the lawyer the the the profession searched as a oral one. So you are defended Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Okay. Dácio: by a guy speaking. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: Then surge the the part that we start to writing things. Then surge the more complex writing things across the time. And then surge the internet and things gonna develop. And now all this information is there. So the judgment still sits on a very specific place. the due diligence of what the machine just produces. And that part hasn't moved anywhere. So this is the inflection point that were going to be somewhere in a few months or years. And the profession at this point doesn't really change it. I could offer you an example of a a really big Lao Lao business in the United States that decided to develop their own AI Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Yes. Dácio: AI thinking AI AI thinking since system because what they have in the in the office is a real commodity. You know? So i it can just be in the world. So we have very specific things happening at the same time. You know, so this kind of templates or documents or contracts, they must be accompanied by experience. So we have these young lawyers entering the markets, we have experienced lawyers at the same time using this, and we have this complex environment and probably we will have a lot of work for the judges. So this Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Hahaha Dácio: important point also that the judgment be really unperfect perfected by the judge also that's a problem that I guess it's already happening to and so need to pay attention to some details. But it's a very very very good thing that's happening because it's an opportunity to re-expand our brains. Because it's not a it's not a thing like it's a opposition. It's extension extension of our brain. It's a research power that we gain it. It's a connection of ideas. So you asked me that the problems start before the contract, of course. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes. Dácio: Because we you you can u you can put things in the contract before you think properly. So you need a a very good legal counsel. And that l good legal counsel anybody now can get from AI and that is very good. because they're gonna get to talk to their lawyer with the proper questions. And that is a return to logic. That's Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: a return to good conversations, honest, open. So that's a evolution. And so that's great. It's a consequence. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: So, yeah, so you're saying that it's actually not a threat, it's an opportunity for the legal profession to evolve into a strategic role as a lawyer, right? Dácio: Definitely. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, it doesn't do. So what do you think about this, know, AI startups? I just forget the names that there are so many, so many AI startups, AI lawyers, you know. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. huh. Dácio: Can I can I say something of the names? we got like Legora doing a great job. Harvey also doing a great job. The law firm I was talking about wa I guess I forgot. No, I'm gonna I'm just no not not going to drop names here and later someone Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: say he was talking and don't know what what about he was talking. But we have great AI legal firms doing solid research, talking with libraries and doing the due diligence and trying to reach law firms to do the proper job. And y yes, it's it's amazing for it's amazing things but it's not for the Julius Neil Buenconsejo: What, what do you- Dácio: normal guy this this these things. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, what do you think is the advantage of this AI, you know, AI law firms right now? Those that you mentioned, what is their advantage over the traditional lawyers like you or some other, you know, law firms in the world? Dácio: Yeah, I'm old school. I am maybe a dying breed or maybe Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: I don't thought about that much yet. But the advantage I would say it's probably I mean it must be because otherwise there's no advantage low cost. Because if increase costs what's the point? Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, yeah, so I am Dácio: Time time for time for for people I mean low cost for the clients of course. We Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dácio: are still a business, no so we Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: we must serve a a purpose. So in my Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: my feeling, I guess that's the real the real deal. To improve a service. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Was there Dácio: Democratization of a service also. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: a specific contract or project where you realized that the contract wasn't actually the problem? Dácio: can you repeat the question? Julius Neil Buenconsejo: was there a specific contract or project, you realize that the contract wasn't actually the problem. Dácio: Wasn't or was? Julius Neil Buenconsejo: What was not was not was not Dácio: several times. That that depends. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: That depends. there are so many cases How can I put this? A contract. It's like a for me, of course. It's the negotiation. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Okay. Dácio: So people because I was in the business side and not at the end of the negotiation part, a conference is a negotiation. But I think that what happens with most of my colleagues they they receive the negotiation framework and they don't have any maneuver so That's is one of the things that must be we need to reflect about that. About how how do you fit in the the lawyer or the real lawyer or I'm not saying that this doesn't exist. Of course Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: we have in many boards very good and Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Dácio: Genius lawyers. It's not that one I'm talking about. But the contract itself, it becomes a problem or not became a problem, it depends on the other end. I can talk about how I fix one of my contracts or how I work on a few examples, but this question specifically. It's too broad to to answer in that point like Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, yeah, Dácio: that. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: yeah, yeah. So you already mentioned about the AI law. So the first generation of legal AI has been incredibly good at drafting, reviewing, summarizing, and researching. But you've argued that those systems mostly operate beneath the actual architectural layer. So what happens when AI starts moving above the document itself? Dácio: Well. That's the thing. I don't think that or I don't imagine that Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: this will happen that way. Because they are they they feed from from us. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: So we will walk hand on hand on this matter. So what matters most is judgment of the person using the AI. So this will happen conformately with both at the same time. So for the AI to do this would be something like AGI that they assuming that will happen really soon. But Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Uh-huh. Dácio: at this specific point in my Line of thought remembering that we I believe that it's a AI as a friend is a extension of our brain. What will happen I think is that they will become really good in a lot of contracts, a lot of things that are not that difficult. One of the first things that we found as humanity in a cave, I guess, was coming farm was a contract. A guy complaining Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mmm. Dácio: about something weight. This guy don't pay me something, you know. So this Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: kind of stuff you're gonna be easy for from AI, you know. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: always gonna be but we always gonna add another layer of strategy because the contract don't derive from strategy itself it derives from other things that's Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: is the real deal we are talking That's the the question, you know. But Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: he can point the direction if he gets smart enough. He can point. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Okay. Dácio: Because when people are using AI, he's also learning with you. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes. Yeah, yeah, correct, At what point does AI stop being a legal copilot, which people are doing now? They're asking AI about the legal capabilities and become a business architect. Dácio: business art there that's a very good question. That's a very good question. That transcends a little bit about the legal to the to the business. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes, yeah. Dácio: Yeah. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: in terms of your legal practice, for example. So in the future, for example, most of the people who will be your clients will be using AI. So they are now well prepared, well informed about the cases or the contracts that they're going to discuss with them. So on your side, for example, on a business perspective, how is AI going to help you when you are now dealing with more informed clients? more knowledgeable clients also when it comes to cases. And Dácio: Mm-hmm. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: you already said that there are so many templates, there's so much information out there, especially for those very standard cases that you're handling. And of course, yeah. Dácio: Well what I can say I hope they are French because the when we are dealing with French the the French for French clients the French people they love to argue a good conversation so that's good. I I can say that Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Uh-huh. Dácio: so we can have a a real great conversation and Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: that's nice but jokes aside Julius Neil Buenconsejo: So how do you think this is? Dácio: That can can that that that that can become not a problem because when you push things to the limit on both sides to the limit I mean to the limit of our knowledge Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: things tend to evolve. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: The ideas get better. So the business get better, more efficient More cost effective the logistics got better than Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: so that's what I can imagine now because if AI is thinking like the client and me, maybe both are out of the equation. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Hahaha Dácio: So Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: but that just is just a philosophical but it's not a a judgmental thing. It's just I think this will happen at some point and Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dácio: will be great because we can think at all all things at the same time. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: That's that's the real real thing here because remember it still is extension of her brain in my opinion so if he if the AI i reach this level he's helping me with my strategies and innovation Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: so I am more more sharp more intellectual so I can do better business, so I can behave like some of the best entrepreneurs in the world. Being a small Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: guy. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: AI in the future, could AI eventually say, the Dacio don't sign this contract, not because clause seven, it is wrong, but because the entire structure is incompatible with the way your business is evolved. Dácio: Of course. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: Yes, they can. If you know how Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: to use AI, they can. I have Julius Neil Buenconsejo: hey. Dácio: no doubt about that. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: But we We need to think that it's not just like you receive a contract and you say that yes or no. You need to be in the same page with the AI. You Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dácio: need to be prepared to receive this kind of knowledge and enjoy it. So can be good for you. But not just receive a contract. Because judgment and I not say experience here because it will be too easy to say that. Because it's not, but judgment. and ask the questions. this is good for me, this is not good for me. Know your business. I don't know about that. how about this? if you can talk with way I maybe you will receive the proper answer. And then you can reflect about it. And Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: in this case yes. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: You use the metaphor of oak, the oak and the bamboo. The oak is rigid, it resists until it breaks and then the bamboo bends and survives. What does bamboo look like in an actual contract? Dácio: Well I can say in I can I use an example of negotiation. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes, yes please. Yes, yes please. Dácio: I was having problems with tax tax manner in a contract and fee Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dácio: structures And we have a government law in the contract where where we should be processed the contract somewhere in the world. So this is what we call a boilerprate clause. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mmm. Dácio: So the focus of the discussion was fixed there. But for me was not the real problem. So for me that was the oak. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mmm. Dácio: the the thing that everybody was focused and nobody Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: wants to break the woke. But Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Yes. Yeah. Dácio: what I really wanted was the tax and the fees. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes. Dácio: So we discussed it and I said I accept the government clause in exchange the bamboo. from the structure of tax and fees. But I already have a well-prepared structure to deal with this government clause. So you don't need to use a contract like was a prequel. We can be flexible analyzing it. So this is something that I carried in my experience in the 16 years and that's wh where it was born my idea of the bamboo and the oak. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, that's that. Dácio: be flexible in some things. So in this case nah so for them it was a boilerplate. For me Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: it was something that I was always gonna give them. And for me it was ground, terrain. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dácio: Same words on the page, completely different meaning depends on where you're happening to be standing. So it was a complete success for me. the bamboo worked really well for me. So that's where was in my mind born this Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: this idea and that's where I started to try to develop develop a more strategic thought and thought and academic idea and search more about this manner. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, so the bamboo is flexible, right? So do you think Dácio: Yeah. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: is flexibility actually a legal risk or a lack of flexibility become the bigger risk? Dácio: a lack becomes a bigger risk. Definitely. I can say to you that a a lack of flexibility it is a real risk in historical cases like Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: I don't know if know the currency was wars, Thomas Edison versus Tesla back in the day. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dácio: So of these becomes two companies that was General Electrics and Westinghouse. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah? Dácio: And General Electrics I guess was from sorry, Tesla was the guy from the other guy bought the the thing and then then surgery the Westinghouse and Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: General Electrics and later in the years in the 70s there was this rush to buy uranium and Westinghouse made this really really hard contract that years later probably was the cause that made the company go to Sharp Tower 11. So it's it's dangerous. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. So very, yeah, it's dangerous. Okay. That's a very good example, real-world example that's happened already in a big company. Thank you for that, Dácio: Red. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Dejil. So you also make an interesting distinction. So regulations like GDPR, the AI app, the Data Act don't necessarily invalidate contracts. So instead they leave you with something much more dangerous, a contract that is still legally valid, but operationally unusable. Why is that distinction Dácio: Mm. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: important? Dácio: Well, for a minute as you just noticed, I tend to le to to read history to try to understand things and understand how the past can mold the future or how you can learn from different experiences and apply now. So history is useful here. In the fifties and sixties we have these companies that pass it through regulations changes that were pretty more pretty much more hard than what's happening now. Then for example Mitsubishi have industries Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-mm. Dácio: and in Japan there was kind of a complex of three industries that were separated and all the regulation changes but people continue to work receiving salaries and they have their contracts with everybody and all the regulation changes and things needed to go through and so they they live it through. So we have real examples there. That's not as I can say rocket science Nah, we have examples BAS, the chemical company too, passage some similar s situation. So we have literature about it. and in another matter, we don't need to go back to the fifties and sixties. We have the OFAC that's Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: I don't know if this This is trending so much now in Europe. But we have this the thing of you know analyzing who is client of who. This don't invalidate what happened to your company, but can turn void your contract. So if you have this client and from night and day you you can So these things are happening with us now and we need to start thinking about this because there there's a moment that we can start develop some kind of ideas because when we are developing a product I'm pretty sure that somebody there, maybe a developer, can say and look at you, that sounds quite of legal illegal. I'm mmm that's a really nice starting point for raising questions and call lawyer friends and start thinking about the contracts and how we Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: can stand hand by hand with the regulators and Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: think ahead of them and maybe this is my point, you know, because regulations will come. And we have the laws already, you know, because even if they try to do new regulations like that quote, like AI Act They came from something, Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: like the Magna Carta constitutions. So it's not like they you know from from like this we have principles so Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: I don't say it is it's easy but I'm saying you can think in something, you know. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Hahaha Dácio: So this is the the kind of things I was trying to say. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, so how should, based on what you're saying, so how should contracts be designed when the regulatory change is no longer an exception but an assumption? Dácio: Well, first of all we need to think that we are getting closer to the line. That's a nice starting point. And then we need to look about maybe I think some historical examples of how they navigate in in that historical age era. so we can try to see what happened not as the same thing but and then see the regulations that had passed and there's a lot of regulations because these things happen all the time you know it's not like AI it's a new thing And I not mean AI itself. I mean new discoveries because I know people are quite scared about AI. Yeah, Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, yeah. Dácio: I don't understand that very much because it seems like yesterday I was watching how do you say a chip being cloned? So happened the same thing, you know, then the Genoma. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, yeah. Dácio: And then we have the press of Gutenberg, then we have the Industrial Revolution, then we have light. Then when we see the man was in the moon and was every every age has these these types of events. Maybe this what happened now is with all this social media and things are more spread but We can try to how can I put in a specific way. We can try to think like the regulators, at least. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Okay. Okay. Dácio: But try to think like them. And Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: try to think that this this will be nice, this will not be nice. This I I guess that is the first path. Try to do something that will work. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Should the future contracts contain the architecture for their own evolution? Dácio: definitely. Everything is evolving the contracts through to They are the foundation. As I said earlier, we found in the cave. A guy was discussing with another payment of wheat. It's how how it started. Yeah. Well, that's quite of a few interest things that I can say about that. First. Our legal system is quite similar to the to the French and with some of inspiration from other European systems like Portuguese and Ape Germans too. So it's not that different. But here you need to be patient. have few problems with that. And we need to know how to navigate that because as all problems that were discussed here applies here amplify it. So we'll be interested to think that here patience and thinking in advance is very very advised. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: And we are mostly a country that our political maybe looks like how can I say it gently chaotic, but it's not that much because we tend to be in the middle. looks like we are always are on on side on or another, but we are in the middle and we have a population, really big population that really wants to be in the market, the world market. they want to buy things, they want to be there and they want to have access and they are they are smart Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: and they they are funny when when you meet them probably Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: we will we will laugh they made a lot of jokes Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: and all around Brazil there's not just São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro you you see it's Brazil have many many areas regions so but basically you are all all the same in the in the meaning that we have this common common sense that we want prosperity and we have all kinds of markets so we have high net worth individuals to the the other side and things that Brazil needs the most at this point That's not pointed out. We need to revamp our industries and that's important because our plants are really really old and we have problems with this. So Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, so you mentioned the UN-linked consultancy project, right? Dácio: Right. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Where he built a full legal framework for a major federal government project in three months. You had three months to build a legal framework for a major federal government project and then put it in front of the stakeholders across the political spectrum. What does that kind of pressure teach you about designing systems that actually survive reality? Dácio: Well that was a a tough job because in Brazil we have like this many parties so it's not like in other countries so you have all kind of parties and So you can expect to be received by people that like you like you and people that don't like you. So first of all everybody like like the project is a very very unique thing. I even I didn't expect it. So what a bu I built what a structured system that provided a step-by-step situation that enabled them to forget the differences and do their job. So this was the whole point. That's how it works Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: So I remove it from the equation the problem and deliver a system. Legal system. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, what did you learn? Yeah, what did you learn there that couldn't be learned from a textbook? Dácio: that I removed the problem. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, okay. Okay. Dácio: The problem of the opinions being there and and they say no this is that guy won't we we will not like and this guy won't won't like so when I turn the thing neutral They can't just Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, okay, that's a very good point. Dácio: That I learned that books don't teach you. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: That's a very good, you know, that's a very good point. this one thing, you this is a fun question about you. So it's very personal. So you posted something that caught my attention. You showed your library and there were almost no law books. You said Dácio: Yeah. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: it wasn't oversight, it was a choice. What replaced the law books? Dácio: Now most of my law books I gave it away and remain it with the books I like and because law changed so much in Brazil that they become obsolete. And But nowadays in Brazil law I like to read only the law. When I was younger, I had this really smart smart smart smart lawyer with me. So I was really just out of school and They say to us every the in school there need to be 20 pages, need to be this and that and all kind of things. So I was with him and he was really important and and he said to me more than 10 pages I even read it. So Julius Neil Buenconsejo: haha Dácio: So I I was looking at him really confused. So I started to read more about what judges and justices and others do and read about the in Brazil say jurisprudence and read about more the law, only the law. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: So less about Brazilian specific s doctrine. So tend to do my own conclusions. And this is what was guiding me in this kind of of things. So Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: I the other books are all about histories and classic romances and financial Finance is a lot of economics, I love so Julius Neil Buenconsejo: So this one you mentioned a while ago, this one caught my attention. You said that your law books were all obsolete because you the laws in Brazil changes, right? So you just denoted that. What do you think is the role of AI in the law, for example in Brazil, in relaying the updated law, the information in front of the people? Dácio: And that's a tricky one because we are having a lot of problems already. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: So In my opinion, AI will help people find the laws they need. But people need to go to Google and type the law. open the site of the Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Open the box. Yeah Dácio: official press from Brazil and Julius Neil Buenconsejo: huh. Dácio: read the law. Otherwise Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: they can be in trouble. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, okay. Dácio: It's something like that. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, okay. If you could redesign law school around the problems businesses actually face, what would you remove and what would you add? Dácio: Sorry about that. Yeah. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: If you, for example, if you are going to be part of the one big university who was a law school, and then they said, Deisho, if you could redesign law school around the problems of businesses that you actually faced in your experience, what would you remove in our curriculum and what would you add? Dácio: Well, remove is a trick question. It's a complicated question. I can say you that. But I will I would like to ask them to be a businessman for a month or something like that. Or try Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: to live the experience of understand how a business works. Yeah. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: All right. Dácio: get the feeling about nah so what I would add because I when I was in law school our commercial our commercial law was from eighteen hundred and fifty three and civil Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Really? Dácio: code was from two thousand two okay but Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Hahaha Dácio: That's fine. And now they are Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: already discussing it. But was really at the tipping point that we need Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: to read also the civil code from 1916. So Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Wow. Dácio: I don't know what they are teaching now. But I think Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: that If you want to be a lawyer from business companies, you need to try to be on the board of the business business. You need to understand the business. You need to know the basics of a business. So we need a class of or two of administrations administration but not the thing that it's like a first semester thing. Some some real tough stuff that Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Okay. Dácio: what is what I will add. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: You also said something about, I think it's very essential to your worldview. So rule of law is the instrument. The problem is always human, financial or strategic. So what does that mean in practical application? Dácio: The problem is without rule of law we can practice practice business. So we are in constant fear to try to be in the market. That's the real the real question here. So because it's a big step to be in the market. So we need to go to places that the rule of law is completely secure. Completely. injustice. You just can't. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Okay, let's go to AI and contracts before we go to the last part of our podcast. I'm going to ask you some questions about the future. So Dejo, will AI make lawyers more strategic or simply make companies need fewer lawyers? Dácio: Both. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: If AI can identify thousands of contractual risks, does that create better decision making or just more information? Dácio: better decisions. Better better decision. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, who is responsible when an AI design contractual structure fails? Dácio: We're responsible for the mistake or who is responsible for Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes, well, yeah, for the AI design constructor, construct while structure fails. Okay. Dácio: The human human how you can blame a computer is the same that you blame a a car for the for the accident. But Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, yeah. Could AI become better at designing contracts than humans? Because it can stimulate thousands of scenarios humans don't have the cognitive capacity to consider. Dácio: Yes, of course. One day this will come. Yes. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: What should never be delegated to AI in legal architectures? Dácio: Mm legal work chaser. Well never Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Hmm, what? Yes. Dácio: be delegated. And the final judgment because as it's your name on the paper. final judgment. you are signing it. The decision making. Never. They can they Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, all right. Dácio: can structure the thing, but the judgment is human. Judgment. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, okay. So before we go to the rapid 10x, this is my last question. if somebody who is watching this or a listener, who is a CEO, right? For example, I'm a CEO right now listening to this podcast and I'm Dácio: Yeah. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: going to expand in Latam tomorrow. Before my lawyer drops a single page, what are the five questions I should be asking? Dácio: What I want in Latin. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: What are the five questions I should be asking as a CEO wanting to expand to Latam area? Dácio: Let me think about a b one minute. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes, no problem. Dácio: Well the place that I want to setting and the jurisdictions that I want to setting and the type Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: of that's the first question and the type of business I setting in thinking and about the and methods of contratation the the contracts of people that work in my in my business company the logistics is the most important thing so I need to be closer to ports or I will need to use roads. That's the third part of the the question. And the tributary trip tax regime I want to use it so that needs to be used analysed very carefully. And five, hire me. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: That's the best question, know, that's the best, that's the best one. Okay, we are going to the last, you know, part of our podcast. It's a rapid 10x round. So I will ask you 10 questions about, you know, about AI and how did it improve yourself? So one, what's one AI tool you actually use every day? Dácio: Well I use a lot but I use grog every day because Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Okay. Dácio: honestly it's not for work, is for fun. I Julius Neil Buenconsejo: huh. Dácio: always looking about football. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Uh-huh. Dácio: I love European football Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: and so watching searching what happened and asking questions. Sometimes I talk to him about other things but Grock is like a a guy I I shat about in a a minute or two about things and he's fun. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Can't you do that in AI? mean in chat GPT or cloud? Dácio: I guess it it it can, but I like rap Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, all right, okay, so what's one task AI has already 10x in your life? Dácio: Deep research that is amazing. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: finding things to read used to take much more time and now it's very easy for me. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, what's one human skill AI can never replace? Dácio: One human skill that I can never replace. Judgment. That's the the thing. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: If you could automate one annoying thing forever, what would it be? Dácio: Well I I enjoy it but it's annoying. Ads. I really would appreciate some ads that resonated with me. Because I'm Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: tired of skipping ads. Really tired. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: I just want to to know I'm buying something that is reliable and I have confidence. That Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: will be so great. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, what's the biggest misconception about AI right now? Dácio: fear. I always remember the one of the phrases I really liked a lot that was from Theodore Roosevelt. That stay on my mind that we we have to be afraid of fear itself. And I guess they are not understanding that AI is something really great for for us. And we need to embrace it with our classical responsibility. humans know how to do that for at least I don't know, ten thousand years, six thousand years or something. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: So what advice would you give someone who wants to become 10x or exponentially great at one thing starting today? Dácio: You know what I'm going to say. Read, read, read, read, read, read, read. It's even I guess it became a meme because Van Herzog, the the filmmaker, you know, I like him a lot. He he said that. It resonated with me. It's very important Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: that you read, you know, because it's i it's there that you can create your judgement. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, that's good. So what would you tell your younger self about the future? Dácio: About the future. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes. Dácio: Don't give up. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: What one book, podcast, or resource that shaped your thinking about AI or innovation? Dácio: Well actually I have a book right here and it Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: represents the segment and it's about a guy that I love Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Dácio: Is this old fella, Peter Lynch? He's a wonderful investor. He's plain, simple. He can speak with you. You understand what he's saying. He's a terrific guy and I really enjoy it, you know. He's great. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, what did you learn from him? One thing that you learned from him that you are now actually applying in your life. Dácio: Simplicity. Don't try to be complex about stuff. If you can explain something in two, three minutes, the thing can maybe it's not good. Always Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Hmm. Dácio: run from the 10 for always try to get your 10x. That's a fun Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, okay. Dácio: coincidence. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, that's nice. So what's one book, podcast? that's the book, right? So that's the book, right? That's the book. So if you had to bet... Dácio: Yeah. The podcast is you. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Thanks. If you had to bet one AI trend that will be massive in three years, what is it? Dácio: Well in I think that in three years we will get movies being made by AI. And not movies from studios but by regular regular people. Good people, Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: you know, real artists doing movies and maybe we will get some real good books but AI as extension of the brain with a a human together, probably. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, actually I just read something about the first Chinese full series made out of AI will be launched today or tomorrow. Dácio: believe in that. And you'll be cool. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, they're, yeah, yeah. It will be full AI, nothing else. And that is really, really cool. And the good thing about it, you know, the small players like somebody who doesn't have a studio but very creative, they just have to have a storyline, the plots, and then they can just, you know, monetize that. That's good. Okay. Last question. What does 10x mean to you personally? Dácio: a 10 bagger that means tur transforming one to ten and maybe one to one hundred that came Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dácio: from this guy here the 10 bagger the 10x that Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dácio: autis idea that I love it when I saw it the 10x Julius the this idea that it's in me too and Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Dácio: We have a lot in common that we even thought about it yet, but Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes. Dácio: that's that's I like it when it happens, you know. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay. Dácio: I think beggar i it's for me can get a project and transform it and amplify it to something that becomes ten times bigger. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Okay, okay. So if there is somebody, a lawyer, know, an entrepreneur or somebody who is just who wants, you know, to explore, to be more, you know, to be more than yourself. So what would be your advice for anyone right now who wanted to be like you in a stature, wanted to be a lawyer, who wanted to be, you know, more wide-read? What would you tell this younger people? Dácio: Education. Owing in education. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes, so for you know, yeah. Dácio: I know grind, grind, grind, grind. Because in in lawyer in there is no other way. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, yeah. you know that, you know, for the viewers and listeners, Dasha will be studying at the University of Oxford next year. So you'll be part of our 2007, you know, cohort diploma of different, different diplomas. So I'm an AI for business. So hopefully you'll be able to, you'll be able to learn from him. And also if, for example, somebody, a CEO, anybody who wants to work with you, who wanted to set up a business in Latam or, you know, somebody who just wanted, you know, to to have a conversation with you. How do they reach you? Dácio: Well in my LinkedIn they have my email, it's my personal email for now. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dácio: I don't know if can say it here because you know my name is so complex, you know. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, yeah. I'll just put, you know, in the caption. I'll just put in the caption. Dácio: No i you can put it there later, you know, the so I I I read it all, so it's it's fine, you know. Or and my LinkedIn, you know. I Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yes. Yes. Dácio: accept it how I don't have these things, you know, I'm just sending invitation, I accept it. A cool guy. Blah blah. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, I'll just... Yeah, I'll put your link in front. Yeah. I know. So, again, thank you very much for watching and listening to us. Dácio: Thank you, Julius. Julius Neil Buenconsejo: Yeah, thank you Dejio for all the information, the insights that you've given. I really enjoyed our conversation. I learned a lot from you too, especially the legal frameworks in Latam and also in Brazil. So, for the viewers, thanks again for watching 10xAI. Remember, the future doesn't belong to AI. It belongs to the people. who use it. See you next episode.