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Why Your Business Can't Run Without You · Business Roundtable

0:13
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Business Roundtable podcast. I'm your host,
0:16
Speaker 1: David Carr, founder of Steward Your Business. We bring great
0:20
Speaker 1: leaders to help you, the business owner. The leaders scale
0:23
Speaker 1: with clarity, align your teams, make sure that you actually
0:26
Speaker 1: have sustainable growth. And we're going to get into an
0:30
Speaker 1: issue that I've seen a lot of times where business
0:32
Speaker 1: owners really think they have a people problem, or maybe
0:36
Speaker 1: it's a time problem or even a strategy problem, but
0:38
Speaker 1: often not. It's what's really happening is that business owner
0:42
Speaker 1: is structured in a way that keeps everything flowing back
0:44
Speaker 1: to them and they are really feeling stuck. And when
0:46
Speaker 1: that happens, the growth slows, there's decision bottlenecks, and the
0:50
Speaker 1: leaders really get stuck in working in their business and
0:53
Speaker 1: instead of really on it. And that's what we're going
0:55
Speaker 1: to unpack today. I'm joined with by Carol Schultz, who
0:59
Speaker 1: really helps CEOs break out of that trap and build
1:02
Speaker 1: organizations that really are able to scale beyond them. And Carol,
1:07
Speaker 1: I want to say thank you and welcome for coming
1:09
Speaker 1: on the podcast. And before we were recording, I said
1:13
Speaker 1: one thing that stood out to me. I wanted to
1:14
Speaker 1: ring out to you right at the beginning was you say,
1:17
Speaker 1: you talk about freeing hostages and what does that mean
1:20
Speaker 1: in the context at all all this I just laid out.
1:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, David, it really means CEOs who have become consumed
1:28
Speaker 2: by their business, right, so they're spending most of the time.
1:32
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of us talk about working in
1:34
Speaker 2: the business versus working on the business, but really, in
1:38
Speaker 2: its simplicity, that's what it is. They're consumed by working
1:41
Speaker 2: in their business with minutia, with things that really if
1:47
Speaker 2: the proper structures and frameworks were in place and processes,
1:51
Speaker 2: they would be freed to actually grow the business and
1:54
Speaker 2: scale it.
1:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love that, And this is why I
1:56
Speaker 1: wanted you to come on the podcast. You have a
1:58
Speaker 1: wealth experience and background where I'm hack this. But one
2:02
Speaker 1: thing you just mentioned there is when CEOs say they're overwhelmed,
2:05
Speaker 1: like I'm just so overwhelmed, is what have you seen
2:10
Speaker 1: helping these CEOs? What's really going on underneath there?
2:14
Speaker 2: Well, they don't have the support that they need for
2:16
Speaker 2: one thing, or they're you know, they hire people that
2:22
Speaker 2: are not are not fully qualified to do the jobs
2:25
Speaker 2: are in right, It's not just the people problem, it's
2:27
Speaker 2: recognizing what you need in certain roles to be able
2:32
Speaker 2: to accomplish what you as the CEO or CEO founder
2:35
Speaker 2: need to accomplish. Right. So one example is one of
2:39
Speaker 2: my former clients who is a thought leader in her
2:43
Speaker 2: she's a thought leader in the area of impact investing.
2:48
Speaker 2: She's amazing. And when I first met with her, when
2:52
Speaker 2: she first reached out to me, she told me she
2:54
Speaker 2: was working between eighty and one hundred hours a week. Wow,
2:57
Speaker 2: and wait, wait, wait for it, fifty percent that was
3:00
Speaker 2: being spent managing people.
3:02
Speaker 1: Oh wow, not hiring.
3:03
Speaker 2: People, managing people. She had employees jumping their managers and
3:10
Speaker 2: going straight to her.
3:11
Speaker 1: Mmmm.
3:13
Speaker 2: So that's just one tiny little example. It was destroying
3:17
Speaker 2: her life. She could never have any time off. I mean,
3:19
Speaker 2: it was horrible.
3:21
Speaker 1: Yeah.
3:21
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Well, this is why I'm doing because, as you know,
3:25
Speaker 3: with Steward your business, I help with those teams, but
3:28
Speaker 3: not with the CEO is locked up like you're saying,
3:31
Speaker 3: and if they just have all these decisions coming back
3:33
Speaker 3: to the founder, like you said, oh my gosh, that is.
3:35
Speaker 1: Just you're you are feeling like you're a hostage and
3:38
Speaker 1: you're you're almost imprisoned by your company.
3:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's exactly what she was in this case.
3:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it doesn't. So it doesn't sound like it's
3:50
Speaker 1: it's the business isn't broken, it's just the way that
3:53
Speaker 1: the needs to be up on the way healthier way,
3:58
Speaker 1: and the businesses is broken in that case, Like you're
4:00
Speaker 1: showing because it's not sustainable, but you're saying, Okay, I'm
4:03
Speaker 1: going to help this business owner, this founder shift it.
4:06
Speaker 1: And so that is not all coming back to them.
4:08
Speaker 1: And I love that because I loved seeing where there's
4:10
Speaker 1: these self managing teams. But it's like you said that,
4:14
Speaker 1: it sounds like she was enabling this and obviously you
4:17
Speaker 1: saw the pattern coming in there, Carol, and you're like,
4:19
Speaker 1: this is not a healthy.
4:20
Speaker 2: Pattern, right, no, very And the thing is that she
4:23
Speaker 2: was she wasn't and is incredibly self aware, right, And
4:28
Speaker 2: this was happening to somebody this self aware And this
4:32
Speaker 2: is not uncommon among founder CEOs, right. I mean I
4:35
Speaker 2: work with founder CEOs and regular CEOs were not the founder, right,
4:40
Speaker 2: And but it goes across the board, but I think
4:44
Speaker 2: it's particularly common with founder CEOs. They feel very responsible.
4:49
Speaker 2: It's their vision, it's their baby, and it causes them
4:56
Speaker 2: to really need we feel like they need to be
5:02
Speaker 2: involved everywhere or you know. I had a founder say
5:06
Speaker 2: to me late last year that he just didn't I
5:14
Speaker 2: just don't think I can get the best people because
5:18
Speaker 2: of because I'm a startup and where I am. And
5:21
Speaker 2: I said, I call bullshit on that. I mean, I
5:25
Speaker 2: was a head hunter for years and I got people,
5:29
Speaker 2: and I got startups the best people. I didn't get
5:33
Speaker 2: them the players or c players. They got A players
5:36
Speaker 2: because I worked with a Leble companies, right, And so
5:40
Speaker 2: he just did not understand because so many founders think, well,
5:44
Speaker 2: I can do the hiring myself, and she had done
5:46
Speaker 2: that on her own up till then.
5:47
Speaker 1: Also, wow she.
5:49
Speaker 2: Had and many founders think, oh I can do it.
5:51
Speaker 2: How hard is it? Well, I don't know. I was
5:52
Speaker 2: a professional headhunter for thirty years. It's hard. Yeah, to
5:56
Speaker 2: be great at it, it's hard. It's not hard to
5:58
Speaker 2: be terrible at it.
6:02
Speaker 1: Well, I love how you're bringing this. You're you're recognizing
6:06
Speaker 1: these different patterns and as a you brought up a little.
6:09
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously if you're working eighty hours or doing
6:11
Speaker 1: all this time. I like these metrics that you're putting
6:14
Speaker 1: out there because I, as a business owner, I want
6:15
Speaker 1: them to listen or even though you know you're you're
6:18
Speaker 1: seeing your leader do this, you're a business owner. It's
6:21
Speaker 1: like sometimes they don't even realize how much they're off
6:25
Speaker 1: Carol and and.
6:27
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm not so sure David, that they really
6:31
Speaker 2: that they don't realize that. I don't. I don't.
6:34
Speaker 1: I just don't because in the stand and just think
6:37
Speaker 1: I'll just figure out somehow it'll get better one one day.
6:41
Speaker 2: No, but uh no, they just don't know how to
6:44
Speaker 2: get themselves out of it, right. I had another founder
6:47
Speaker 2: not long ago, probably in the last three months say
6:50
Speaker 2: to me that his family was literally at the bottom
6:52
Speaker 2: of the food chain. Mm hmm of everything he had
6:55
Speaker 2: to do. M I mean, as it has that working
7:00
Speaker 2: for you? You know that's I mean, how happy is
7:03
Speaker 2: your family? You don't get to your kid, you don't
7:04
Speaker 2: get see your wife.
7:05
Speaker 1: Right right? Pramatic, I mean problematic.
7:10
Speaker 2: And and I've been on the founders that I've worked
7:12
Speaker 2: with in the past who made it to every one
7:14
Speaker 2: of their kids games. Yeah, because you knew how to
7:17
Speaker 2: put the structures in place to allow them to do that,
7:20
Speaker 2: right is it?
7:22
Speaker 1: Is it like you said, they just don't know how
7:24
Speaker 1: to do this? And that's where you come in, Carol
7:26
Speaker 1: with them and build this structure, if you will. But
7:31
Speaker 1: they keep throwing out these different things of like, okay,
7:33
Speaker 1: they there's they recognize the problem, but they don't know
7:36
Speaker 1: how to like interrupt that pattern in a healthy way,
7:40
Speaker 1: and so they just kind of like kick the cand
7:43
Speaker 1: down the road, so to speak. And one and one
7:45
Speaker 1: thing I liked before we recorded this, we were talking
7:47
Speaker 1: about you were with a mentor. I work with mentors.
7:50
Speaker 1: You have to have some people kind of sometimes come
7:51
Speaker 1: from outside the organization. And that's why you and I
7:54
Speaker 1: work as we can break this down to coach, advisor, consultant,
7:57
Speaker 1: and so forth. But somebody that comes from out outside, right,
8:00
Speaker 1: they can just kind of see things that they're not
8:02
Speaker 1: living and breathing on a daily basis where they feel
8:05
Speaker 1: like I can't see it. I mean, you know it's there.
8:08
Speaker 1: It's like, how do I exactly break that up? And
8:10
Speaker 1: I say, like, you have that experience, Carol coming in
8:14
Speaker 1: and recognizing, oh, this is the this is what's limiting
8:17
Speaker 1: you here right.
8:19
Speaker 2: Well, and and you know, one of the key things
8:22
Speaker 2: I said was about this one founder was she was
8:25
Speaker 2: incredibly self aware. I've got a new client, same thing,
8:29
Speaker 2: very very self aware, and that is I would say
8:33
Speaker 2: the most important thing to be working with anybody if
8:36
Speaker 2: they're If I have a CEO who is not self aware,
8:38
Speaker 2: I'm probably not going to take on their business.
8:41
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm.
8:43
Speaker 2: I'm going to make it three months before I can
8:45
Speaker 2: still taking on their business mm hmmm, to see if
8:49
Speaker 2: they can become self aware.
8:51
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, Well, we just I was just recorded a
8:55
Speaker 4: podcast last week on This Carol where we were talking
8:58
Speaker 4: about fear and people, well the lack of self awareness.
9:02
Speaker 1: So if we can at least get to self awareness,
9:04
Speaker 1: then you can start to do something about it. I
9:06
Speaker 1: think that's your thing. I can actually do something with you.
9:09
Speaker 1: But if you have no self awareness, you don't see
9:11
Speaker 1: it's a problem or an issue. How much I give you?
9:14
Speaker 2: Well, right and then, and you know me, even even
9:18
Speaker 2: thinking to take their money, it's just not going to
9:20
Speaker 2: it's not going to work. I'm going to be miserable, right,
9:23
Speaker 2: I'm not going to get the job done, and I'm
9:26
Speaker 2: not going to put myself into a position where I'm
9:28
Speaker 2: not going to get a job done. It's not going
9:30
Speaker 2: to do it. You know, I've seen other executive coaches.
9:35
Speaker 2: I have a somebody that I know well who coached
9:40
Speaker 2: a CEO founder that I worked with a number of
9:42
Speaker 2: years ago, and you know, I've been coaching him for
9:45
Speaker 2: fifteen years, and you know he has this problem? Is
9:47
Speaker 2: this probably is this problem? I'm like, but he's had
9:49
Speaker 2: those problems for fifteen years? Why are you still coaching him?
9:53
Speaker 2: Either you're a horrible coach or he's just a horrible coach?
9:56
Speaker 2: E for both? Right, something something's not right there when
10:02
Speaker 2: somebody's not making any progress. Yes, And I've just you know,
10:08
Speaker 2: I'm with you. I just can't put myself into that position.
10:11
Speaker 1: It's just too much Adjita, Yeah, I know, I'm with
10:15
Speaker 1: you and Carol. Either way I work with my clients
10:19
Speaker 1: is results space. Are we making progress? Are we moving
10:21
Speaker 1: in the direction we keep working it?
10:22
Speaker 2: Or not?
10:23
Speaker 1: Then we don't and then we move on. I like
10:25
Speaker 1: your ethics and the way that you approach it, Carol. Yeah,
10:27
Speaker 1: you know what a question to Finn and followup with
10:30
Speaker 1: you on and when you're working with these folks and
10:32
Speaker 1: you said they're not getting it figured out? When when
10:34
Speaker 1: you come in and you start working with these folks,
10:36
Speaker 1: what are they missed? What are they misdiagnosing? In themselves,
10:40
Speaker 1: like they're aware, they know there's a problem, but they're
10:42
Speaker 1: not addressing the problem, like oh, I should do the
10:44
Speaker 1: hiring or I should be doing this, and it's like
10:46
Speaker 1: it's not working for them. What are you seeing that,
10:48
Speaker 1: miss leaders? Leaders kind of misdiagnose that you're like, this
10:52
Speaker 1: is a problem, it's it's for you.
10:54
Speaker 2: I'm not sure sure if it's a misdiagnosis David or
10:58
Speaker 2: more of them just not just kind of being clueless
11:02
Speaker 2: about it. I just don't know. Right. So, I've got
11:06
Speaker 2: a relatively new client who, after my second call with him,
11:16
Speaker 2: had an epiphany one night. He had already shared with
11:20
Speaker 2: me that he does not like to hold people accountable,
11:23
Speaker 2: and he needs to fire two people and he has
11:27
Speaker 2: to rehire some people, and there's some other issues he's having,
11:30
Speaker 2: and he said to me. It was a few days
11:34
Speaker 2: after he and I talked, he called me back up
11:35
Speaker 2: and he goes, you know what, I just realized, He said,
11:38
Speaker 2: I don't like to be held accountable. And I thought, man,
11:42
Speaker 2: I just love you. You are so awesome. Right that he
11:45
Speaker 2: came to that on his own, I'm sure it came
11:49
Speaker 2: out of the work we had done, and as he
11:51
Speaker 2: started thinking about it a little bit more, right. I Mean,
11:53
Speaker 2: it's just that kind of self awareness of being able
11:55
Speaker 2: to figure some of these things out on your own.
11:57
Speaker 2: Also is just music to my ears because now that's
12:02
Speaker 2: one more piece that he's gotten to based on probably
12:05
Speaker 2: a conversation that we had, and you can get us
12:08
Speaker 2: where we're going a little faster. Right. So you know,
12:11
Speaker 2: the issue is what I always think about is what's
12:16
Speaker 2: the outcome they're going to get from working with me?
12:19
Speaker 2: And I don't like to say it depends because that's
12:24
Speaker 2: a little too wishy washy. I mean, it really does
12:26
Speaker 2: depend because every person's what they need. It's different for
12:31
Speaker 2: a lot of people what they need, Okay. But the
12:35
Speaker 2: ultimate outcome of this process that I is, the process
12:39
Speaker 2: that I do the organizational scaffold system, is freeing their
12:44
Speaker 2: time so they can actually go back to growing their business.
12:48
Speaker 2: I don't teach anyone how to scale a business. That
12:51
Speaker 2: is not my expertise, yep, okay, But what I freedom
12:56
Speaker 2: to do is to be able to scale their business, yeah,
13:00
Speaker 2: and to lead the vision and so on and so forth.
13:03
Speaker 2: So that's that's a distinction. I just want to point
13:07
Speaker 2: out because there's a million people out there saying oh,
13:09
Speaker 2: I'm gonna help you scale this and I'm going to
13:10
Speaker 2: get you leads, and no, I don't do any of that.
13:13
Speaker 2: I get them out of the business and get something
13:15
Speaker 2: in there to support them. Yeah, so that they can
13:18
Speaker 2: go on and do what they are really good at.
13:21
Speaker 1: Absolutely, That's why I wanted you have on the you
13:22
Speaker 1: on the Business round Table podcasts, because you bring a
13:24
Speaker 1: different perspective Carol that we don't have as I do.
13:27
Speaker 1: And I don't do that, but what you do in
13:29
Speaker 1: the steward your business angle, I'm like developing the people
13:31
Speaker 1: and the teams underneath them in alignment with what you've
13:33
Speaker 1: been able to do, right, And that's what we have
13:35
Speaker 1: that synergy here. What I do want to bring up
13:38
Speaker 1: to you though, because we talked about this on our
13:40
Speaker 1: pre calls, and I love meeting with our guests ahead
13:42
Speaker 1: of time so you guys get a real pure conversation here.
13:46
Speaker 1: One of the things Carol, that we talked about a
13:48
Speaker 1: little bit is that this idea of a strategy trap,
13:52
Speaker 1: like there's a business owners fall into this strategy trap
13:57
Speaker 1: of like they get started you mentioned earlier in the operation.
14:00
Speaker 1: But I want to break this down a little bit
14:01
Speaker 1: more because I think this is a key concept that
14:03
Speaker 1: you you you have and in helping business owners and
14:07
Speaker 1: and then again you mentioned earlier like how everything depends
14:10
Speaker 1: on them, and so can you break down a little
14:12
Speaker 1: bit about this idea of like, well, you know, you
14:17
Speaker 1: talked about lack of strategy, time burnout, the installed growth,
14:21
Speaker 1: and a little bit more you said this. I liked
14:23
Speaker 1: the aha you just said. This guy said, Hi, I.
14:25
Speaker 2: Don't like to be uh does like to be held accountable?
14:29
Speaker 1: You know? And so you know, we so we get
14:33
Speaker 1: we can fall into this crap of you know, they're
14:38
Speaker 1: trying to like you said, they're trying to scale, but
14:40
Speaker 1: there are still because of these own limitations. That was
14:44
Speaker 1: a great one. Hey, I don't want to be accountable
14:46
Speaker 1: that they're everything still depends on them, And so can
14:48
Speaker 1: you just expand on that a little bit more like
14:52
Speaker 1: when they get stuck in that that strategy of like, hey,
14:56
Speaker 1: you know, it just still needs to revolve around me
14:59
Speaker 1: and I'm notaing out of my own way? Is there
15:01
Speaker 1: any level of like significance about that for them? Carol?
15:05
Speaker 2: Well, I think some of it really boils down to
15:10
Speaker 2: a colleague of mine and I wrote an article. I
15:14
Speaker 2: am a regular contributor to INC magazine, so she co
15:18
Speaker 2: authored an article with me about founder's syndrome. Okay, and
15:22
Speaker 2: she and I look at it, I would say tangentially
15:25
Speaker 2: the same. But kind of the bottom line with founders
15:30
Speaker 2: in particular is, you know, I am the panacea. I
15:36
Speaker 2: founded the company. I'm the one with the vision, I'm
15:39
Speaker 2: the one with the idea, so on and so forth,
15:42
Speaker 2: and they often believe that nobody else can have that right.
15:48
Speaker 2: So I my comment to that is, typically, if Mark
15:56
Speaker 2: Zuckerberg did not own fifty one percent of Meta, do
15:58
Speaker 2: you think he would be the CEO? And every answer
16:04
Speaker 2: I've ever gotten was no, probably not right. Yeah, they
16:07
Speaker 2: would have gotten he chooses his own board that will
16:10
Speaker 2: not dump him.
16:11
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
16:12
Speaker 2: Okay. And I think that that's the kind of thing,
16:18
Speaker 2: the analogy that we kind of need to think about here. Right,
16:21
Speaker 2: you are not the only one that can have a
16:23
Speaker 2: vision to lead this company, So now you start start
16:27
Speaker 2: thinking about succession lutely, because who you are from zero
16:34
Speaker 2: to five million or zero to ten million and then
16:39
Speaker 2: ten to fifty million might be two different people. Yes,
16:44
Speaker 2: one of my former search clients back when I'm still
16:46
Speaker 2: doing search work full time amazing startup. They sold their
16:50
Speaker 2: company after five years for north of a half a
16:52
Speaker 2: billion dollars to a well known tech firm, and Dan,
16:57
Speaker 2: the CEO co founder, replaced himself to this happening hmmm hmm,
17:02
Speaker 2: because even though he had done some exits, he needed
17:05
Speaker 2: an expert at that. Yes, So he became chairman of
17:09
Speaker 2: the board and he replaced himself with another CEO who
17:13
Speaker 2: was expert and what they needed to the next step
17:16
Speaker 2: of their growth or exit or whatever that was. And
17:18
Speaker 2: it was obviously very successful at north of half a
17:20
Speaker 2: billion dollars. Yeah, they chose not to go public because
17:24
Speaker 2: the offer made so much sense for them.
17:26
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
17:27
Speaker 2: You know, and listen, you know, five hundred million dollars
17:29
Speaker 2: is pretty good. That gives us a pretty good few money, right,
17:33
Speaker 2: and they were very very successful and they have done
17:36
Speaker 2: it in five years is pretty extraordinary. So he recognized
17:42
Speaker 2: that he was not the only person who could be
17:44
Speaker 2: the founder CEO. There could be somebody else who could
17:46
Speaker 2: be a CEO and replace him and do it quite successfully,
17:49
Speaker 2: which is what happened.
17:50
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
17:51
Speaker 2: So founder syndrome really can get in the way of people.
17:55
Speaker 1: Right now, I want to flip it around on that
17:57
Speaker 1: a little bit, because I think I think that's so powerful.
17:59
Speaker 1: You used talked about like getting out of your own way.
18:03
Speaker 1: Sometimes what I hear and you this is going to
18:05
Speaker 1: draw on your experience to again recruiting and and finding talent.
18:09
Speaker 1: But sometimes they also want to say, well there's a
18:11
Speaker 1: problem here, but I but I'm just going to hire
18:15
Speaker 1: the right person. I just got to find better people.
18:17
Speaker 1: You know, these people I currently have aren't doing the
18:20
Speaker 1: job for me. If I find and I experienced another company,
18:23
Speaker 1: I felt like every six months or year that the
18:25
Speaker 1: owner would try and find somebody in and they seemed
18:27
Speaker 1: like they were going to quote a silver bullet and
18:29
Speaker 1: they would for a moment there, everybody kind of looked
18:31
Speaker 1: down like we know you're going to.
18:32
Speaker 4: Be that the the the.
18:36
Speaker 1: Desired one or whatever you want to say the person.
18:38
Speaker 1: But eventually would wear off and then we're like, okay,
18:41
Speaker 1: we're back now, they're no longer that, they're no longer
18:44
Speaker 1: the silver bullet coming in. And so we've done so
18:47
Speaker 1: much work in this in the past carew before we're
18:50
Speaker 1: recoalivation in this space where and I see this two
18:53
Speaker 1: working with recruiters like get people in there, And I
18:54
Speaker 1: was like, that didn't solve.
18:55
Speaker 2: The problem, because because so I spoke to a founder
19:00
Speaker 2: not long ago with this exact same problem. He said,
19:04
Speaker 2: he's doing He's not only is he the founder and CEO,
19:06
Speaker 2: he's now the head salesperson because every salesperson he's hired
19:11
Speaker 2: has been unsuccessful. So I asked him a number of
19:14
Speaker 2: questions about that, why that was, and who was doing
19:18
Speaker 2: the you know, he was doing the search work himself,
19:20
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth, and I said, you
19:22
Speaker 2: do realize the common denominator here, right as you? Right,
19:27
Speaker 2: you're the common denominator. You're the one who's hired all
19:30
Speaker 2: these people. So maybe it's not the people you're hiring.
19:35
Speaker 2: Maybe it's that you don't actually understand what you're looking
19:37
Speaker 2: for and you don't know how to find that person,
19:40
Speaker 2: qualify that person. I mean, you're not, are you? You know,
19:42
Speaker 2: are you a professional recruiter?
19:43
Speaker 1: Right?
19:46
Speaker 2: No? Well exactly, but everybody thinks they are.
19:48
Speaker 1: Yep.
19:50
Speaker 2: And you know that's a that's a whole separate podcast
19:52
Speaker 2: of the spiraling downward of recruiting since the Internet came along. Yeah,
19:57
Speaker 2: I mean, all the Internet's really done has made people
19:59
Speaker 2: easier to find it has not improved recruiting worth a lick.
20:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know.
20:04
Speaker 2: The people who the people who I still have friends
20:07
Speaker 2: who like me, have more experience because because I only
20:09
Speaker 2: backfill myself now and hire chance of staff for the
20:13
Speaker 2: CEO and I exit out of my process. But but
20:16
Speaker 2: you know, I still consider myself not full time a
20:19
Speaker 2: professional headhunter because I still have all those skills and
20:21
Speaker 2: I know people like me that have even more experience
20:23
Speaker 2: than I do. Right, And you know, the goal has
20:26
Speaker 2: to be that that generation does not die, that we
20:29
Speaker 2: teach the next generation of people how to do it properly,
20:32
Speaker 2: because nothing will be fixed. So if you don't truly understand,
20:36
Speaker 2: back to your question, truly understand what it is you
20:42
Speaker 2: need and why you need that, and how to find
20:45
Speaker 2: that person and how to interview for that person and
20:47
Speaker 2: write a position description and build competency models to rate
20:51
Speaker 2: them off of and do performance reviews off of your
20:55
Speaker 2: sol you really are And that's what and that's what
20:58
Speaker 2: had happened to this guy, like why are you being
21:02
Speaker 2: the full time This is ridiculous that you're spending your
21:05
Speaker 2: time as a full time salesperson. You're never going to
21:08
Speaker 2: be able to grow your company if you keep doing.
21:09
Speaker 1: That, absolutely absolutely never and yeah, and I love the
21:15
Speaker 1: way you broke it down to all the different elements
21:17
Speaker 1: you have to have for that person to be successful.
21:19
Speaker 1: I remember, Carroll, quite honestly, I was going and doing
21:22
Speaker 1: an interview for a very large utility company down here,
21:25
Speaker 1: and I asked them, like, what does this position look
21:27
Speaker 1: like and how while I win at this position? And
21:29
Speaker 1: it was very imomorphous, and I'm like, I ain't going
21:32
Speaker 1: into this because like, I'm almost set up to lose,
21:35
Speaker 1: even though I like the people. I would just la,
21:39
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to company. And to
21:42
Speaker 1: your point, I try to when I come in with
21:43
Speaker 1: a company, if they need what we're going to get
21:47
Speaker 1: into next is how this structure that you hrobally help
21:50
Speaker 1: them build out, because if it's not there, it's like
21:52
Speaker 1: how do you plug those people in? Having gone like
21:57
Speaker 1: coming into a very small business at the time, they
21:59
Speaker 1: hadn't done a million in revenue. I came in there
22:01
Speaker 1: and four and a half years later we did. We're
22:03
Speaker 1: almost seven million in revenue. The change is evolutions every
22:08
Speaker 1: to a year. We had to have outside help. There's
22:11
Speaker 1: no way we would just collapse in on ourselves. And
22:15
Speaker 1: I think that's why I wanted you, because you see
22:18
Speaker 1: this and you're coming outside in and and and you're
22:23
Speaker 1: they're they're getting hiring wrong. They're they're looking at Oh,
22:26
Speaker 1: it's it's it's my my time. I can just do
22:29
Speaker 1: more of this. It's not working. And so what I
22:31
Speaker 1: like is like where you come in and I like
22:34
Speaker 1: this approach for you, the way you call it, this
22:36
Speaker 1: organizational scaffold, if you will, that that you've developed, and
22:41
Speaker 1: I want you to break that down for us, because
22:43
Speaker 1: what is, like you said, we've got these different problems,
22:45
Speaker 1: and how does that fix the problem of these business
22:48
Speaker 1: owners still feeling feeling hostage. You're breaking that and we're
22:51
Speaker 1: That's that's why I'm so glad you're.
22:53
Speaker 2: Here right right. Thank you. I appreciate that.
22:56
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
22:57
Speaker 2: So so really to break it down, it's a it's
23:00
Speaker 2: a three phase, nine step about twelve week process, right,
23:04
Speaker 2: So you know, I like to say, your sort of
23:06
Speaker 2: tongue in cheek, I help them get their shit together,
23:09
Speaker 2: but but in reality, nobody's buying that. So so you know,
23:14
Speaker 2: the first phase, the first three steps go four, five,
23:20
Speaker 2: maybe six weeks, it depends. I My goal is to
23:24
Speaker 2: get it done within about a month. Yeah, and and
23:28
Speaker 2: there's there's three phases. One is what I would more
23:33
Speaker 2: easily call, you know, our our formal term is it
23:37
Speaker 2: isn't for it is an an organizational architecture and leverage review,
23:41
Speaker 2: also known as gap analysis. Yeah, okay, Right, So I'm
23:46
Speaker 2: going in interviewing everyone on the executive team and the
23:50
Speaker 2: board and any potential individual contributors or maybe lower level managers.
23:56
Speaker 2: Talk about that ahead of time. So how many you know,
23:58
Speaker 2: aside from the executive team and board, let's throw in
24:01
Speaker 2: a few other people. Ye, right, and I walk in
24:05
Speaker 2: with only about six or seven questions. Of course, those
24:07
Speaker 2: lead me to many other questions, right, because those questions
24:10
Speaker 2: lead people into other areas. And my goal is to
24:14
Speaker 2: come out of that clearly understanding where the gaps are
24:18
Speaker 2: in the organization. They often lie with Oh, the board
24:22
Speaker 2: and the executive team are not aligned, yeah okay, or
24:26
Speaker 2: the CEO and the executive team are not aligned. Right,
24:31
Speaker 2: So that really shows us not only lack of alignment
24:34
Speaker 2: in the organization, shows me where the gaps are. So
24:38
Speaker 2: what has to be closed? Right? So how are we communicating?
24:41
Speaker 2: I have always said the lowest common denominator around the
24:48
Speaker 2: level of a company's success or failure is how they communicate.
24:52
Speaker 2: So so much of what I learn in this first
24:56
Speaker 2: step comes out of some sort of lack of effective communication.
25:02
Speaker 2: You know, you can't just paste your vision up on
25:04
Speaker 2: the wall, especially everyone to get it. You have to
25:07
Speaker 2: live it, right, So you know, from there I can
25:12
Speaker 2: build a roadmap of what the work is going to
25:15
Speaker 2: look like and what we need to do moving forward. Okay,
25:19
Speaker 2: and then step three of that first phase is really
25:24
Speaker 2: starting to look at our communication structures. Not just how
25:28
Speaker 2: we communicate one on one, David, but how do we
25:31
Speaker 2: communicate across the organization? Sure, how leaders communicate to their
25:37
Speaker 2: direct reports, which may be different generation than they are,
25:43
Speaker 2: or different generations across their subordinates. Right, And you know
25:49
Speaker 2: one example I would use is I always ask leaders, well,
25:56
Speaker 2: when you start talking about communication, I mean, is it
26:00
Speaker 2: your way? Well, here's how I need you to communicate.
26:04
Speaker 2: Not a good idea, you must must ask the employee.
26:07
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean they're going to get everything they want. Sure,
26:11
Speaker 2: how can I help you? How what's the best way
26:17
Speaker 2: for us to communicate together so that you get everything
26:20
Speaker 2: you need and can flourish in this job yep, okay,
26:24
Speaker 2: And sometimes there has to be you know, you have
26:26
Speaker 2: to look at that and think, well, this isn't working.
26:29
Speaker 2: I mean with my chief of staff, she's I think
26:32
Speaker 2: two years off of Z so she's a millennial. And when
26:35
Speaker 2: we first started working together three years ago, she had
26:40
Speaker 2: a suggestion of voice she wanted to communicate and I
26:42
Speaker 2: said okay, and that was completely ineffective for me. It
26:45
Speaker 2: did not work, and we immediately went to primarily sending
26:51
Speaker 2: voice memos via text because now you get tone, you
26:56
Speaker 2: get words, yep, yep. You still you don't always get
26:59
Speaker 2: to see the Now we have at least one call
27:01
Speaker 2: a week, We have one scheduled call a week, and
27:06
Speaker 2: when we need to talk. In fact, we talked this afternoon,
27:09
Speaker 2: so and yesterday, so it just depends. But what we've
27:17
Speaker 2: noticed is if there's too much blowing up of the
27:19
Speaker 2: voice memos, we get on the telephone immediately because there's
27:23
Speaker 2: just too much. I missed, I missed the text. I'm
27:26
Speaker 2: too busy, I don't want to. I'd rather just get
27:27
Speaker 2: on the phone, spend twenty or thirty minutes with her
27:29
Speaker 2: if I need to, and just talk through this. So
27:31
Speaker 2: that's that's stage one, Phase one and then phase two
27:36
Speaker 2: steps really you know, four, five and six start to
27:40
Speaker 2: really measure team competencies to give us insights. So I
27:45
Speaker 2: look at the executive team, you know, how are their
27:47
Speaker 2: teams performing, where are they struggling, so that I can
27:52
Speaker 2: start to figure out what do they need to help
27:55
Speaker 2: support them and supporting their individual their their directors. Yeah, right,
28:01
Speaker 2: implementing leadership accountability. And when I say leadership, David, I
28:04
Speaker 2: don't just mean people with leadership titles, Okay, I mean
28:10
Speaker 2: if I'm an individual contributor, I still need to be
28:12
Speaker 2: a leader. Yeah, I need to lead by example, okay,
28:17
Speaker 2: And that's leadership also, so it's not just the quote leaders.
28:22
Speaker 2: And then we start to establish protocols for improvement loops. Right, okay,
28:30
Speaker 2: so this is where we're struggling. What do we need
28:33
Speaker 2: to put in place to actually help you and support
28:36
Speaker 2: you so that you're not falling down on this or
28:41
Speaker 2: your employees are not falling down on this.
28:43
Speaker 1: Okay?
28:44
Speaker 2: And that goes about another month ish, right, So these
28:47
Speaker 2: are each about four ish weeks.
28:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
28:50
Speaker 2: My goal is I said to be done in about
28:51
Speaker 2: twelve weeks. Sometimes it can go a little bit longer,
28:53
Speaker 2: depends on the size of the organization. Also large organizations,
28:58
Speaker 2: you know, when they start getting up to be about
28:59
Speaker 2: you know already forty million above, sometimes take a little
29:02
Speaker 2: bit longer to do this process. And then you know,
29:05
Speaker 2: basically weeks nine through twelve our training teams to be independent. Right. So,
29:12
Speaker 2: now that we know we've put improvement loops in place,
29:15
Speaker 2: we've got leadership accountability in place, and these leaders want
29:18
Speaker 2: their teams to be independent. So I said my chief
29:21
Speaker 2: of staff, she's completely independent of me. She manages most
29:25
Speaker 2: of my people. Yeah for me, so I don't have
29:28
Speaker 2: to waste my time doing it, absolutely, and I get
29:30
Speaker 2: involved when I need to, right, So we want to
29:34
Speaker 2: make sure we're putting that kind of thing in place.
29:36
Speaker 2: So you know what, you schedule a call with your
29:38
Speaker 2: people once a week, yeah, and if they need you
29:41
Speaker 2: for something, then they can come to you. We you know.
29:46
Speaker 2: And then I start to showcase these results back to
29:49
Speaker 2: the CEO and the rest of the executive team because
29:53
Speaker 2: some of this might have been done I hate to say,
29:55
Speaker 2: in a silo, but working with each person individually, we
29:58
Speaker 2: want to bring it back in and see what we've
30:00
Speaker 2: put in place. Okay, and then we the CEO and
30:05
Speaker 2: I sit to side by side and say, okay, are
30:07
Speaker 2: you ready for a chief of staff? So part of
30:10
Speaker 2: this night set process is also and we get to
30:13
Speaker 2: this usually in phase two, sometimes early in phase three.
30:18
Speaker 2: Just like I said, it will depend on the size
30:20
Speaker 2: of the company is rebuilding all their position descriptions. So
30:26
Speaker 2: I bring the recruiting piece that I've done for so
30:28
Speaker 2: many years, the retained piece especially, sit down with the stakeholders,
30:33
Speaker 2: We run a kickoff meeting like I would for any
30:35
Speaker 2: retained search, and we write the new position description. Based
30:40
Speaker 2: on that, we build a competency model. And the competency
30:43
Speaker 2: model for each of these positions not only helps the
30:46
Speaker 2: hiring manager hire better, and now can use that for
30:49
Speaker 2: performance reviews. So how often do we hear that people
30:54
Speaker 2: in the news, I got fired and I don't know
30:56
Speaker 2: my performance reviews were good, I don't know why they
30:58
Speaker 2: fired me. Guess what, when you start working through competency mouths,
31:01
Speaker 2: both for your hiring and your performance reviews, you have
31:04
Speaker 2: objective people actually have specific measure of results they know
31:09
Speaker 2: they need to produce.
31:10
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. Absolutely.
31:13
Speaker 2: Why does it make everybody's life a whole lot easier?
31:15
Speaker 1: Right? It's not so ambiguous and to your point, I
31:17
Speaker 1: think if you're doing that work at the higher level,
31:20
Speaker 1: like you're saying, Carol, you're identifying these are the most
31:22
Speaker 1: important things we have to do as a company, because
31:25
Speaker 1: what I've saund as a manager or a lower level person
31:28
Speaker 1: is sometimes it doesn't align. And so we got to
31:31
Speaker 1: get like these are the top because there's a lot
31:33
Speaker 1: of things we can do, right, I mean, is it
31:36
Speaker 1: going to really make a difference at the end of
31:37
Speaker 1: the day, it's like, well, let's just drop that off,
31:39
Speaker 1: or that's not as important. This is important, right, you know?
31:43
Speaker 4: Right?
31:43
Speaker 2: So I do want to point out that this the
31:46
Speaker 2: scaffold system covers about ish eighty percent of what the
31:53
Speaker 2: CEO is ultimately going to need to be freed. The
31:57
Speaker 2: other twenty percent lives in the blind spot of them.
32:00
Speaker 2: So when I've been hired, they may think they know
32:03
Speaker 2: what they know, but ultimately there's always things living in
32:06
Speaker 2: a blind spot. Yeah, and that extra about twenty percent.
32:12
Speaker 2: Now that I've worked side by side with them for
32:15
Speaker 2: the first you know, three months. Can I'm so sorry
32:23
Speaker 2: my doorbell just rang. I hope you can cut this
32:26
Speaker 2: piece out, yes, And I'm not going to answer it.
32:29
Speaker 2: I don't know who it is, so I don't think
32:30
Speaker 2: I'm although I see text it could be one of
32:32
Speaker 2: my girlfriends coming over to visit me. But oh well,
32:35
Speaker 2: you'll please cut this out. Let me get back to
32:37
Speaker 2: my thought. So that extra twenty percent is living in
32:44
Speaker 2: the blind spot, and by working side by side with
32:46
Speaker 2: them over this first three months, I know exactly what
32:49
Speaker 2: they're going to need now. So when I go to
32:53
Speaker 2: either praise the place a fractional or full time chief
32:56
Speaker 2: of staff with them, that person can now not only
32:59
Speaker 2: take off all the frameworks and processes that I've put
33:02
Speaker 2: in place. Okay, they get that extra twenty percent. Yeah,
33:09
Speaker 2: how do I know this? Because I placed chiefs of
33:12
Speaker 2: staff in the past. I had my own chief of
33:14
Speaker 2: staff and guess what, none of this this was all
33:17
Speaker 2: in a blind spot for me. The whole process what
33:20
Speaker 2: I do now all in a blind spot for me. Yeah,
33:23
Speaker 2: and I think, boy, if I had known then what
33:26
Speaker 2: I know now, I would have said to every one
33:28
Speaker 2: of them, know, we need to do this first, then
33:30
Speaker 2: I'll give you a chief of staff because that extra
33:33
Speaker 2: twenty percent could make or break the chief of staff's success. Oh,
33:37
Speaker 2: and that the CEO is now freed to do what
33:39
Speaker 2: they need to do.
33:40
Speaker 1: Right, So getting that so spending that time with the
33:42
Speaker 1: CEO those first couple months and then saying, Okay, now
33:47
Speaker 1: I see we can bring this person in really help
33:50
Speaker 1: leverage you. So don't you don't want to bring them
33:51
Speaker 1: in too early because you have to get this all
33:53
Speaker 1: kind of distilled down, and then you can really I
33:57
Speaker 1: see that, we really can unlock for the CEO to
33:59
Speaker 1: then focus and get out of the day to day
34:01
Speaker 1: minutia that they once were and like, oh my gosh,
34:03
Speaker 1: I've got achieved steps to understand this, and they know
34:05
Speaker 1: all the priorities and and where people need to be
34:08
Speaker 1: and and all that front end work. And so I think,
34:12
Speaker 1: I hope it's the business Own show. You guys are
34:14
Speaker 1: listening into this. It's like slow down to go faster.
34:16
Speaker 1: Sometimes we're going so fast, we're being what is I
34:20
Speaker 1: like to say, sometimes we're being efficient. So we're being
34:23
Speaker 1: efficient but not effective. Right, We're doing a lot of
34:27
Speaker 1: things like but is it really getting us where we
34:29
Speaker 1: want to be? Not really? In the power of having
34:31
Speaker 1: somebody like you, Carol come in and say, look, let's
34:35
Speaker 1: break slow this down a little bit, come up the
34:36
Speaker 1: break so we can be healthier and get this organizational
34:41
Speaker 1: scaffolding in place, and then I don't know a lot
34:44
Speaker 1: of businesses are using this language, but I like it
34:47
Speaker 1: of a chief of staff coming in there and really
34:51
Speaker 1: helping you in this capacity as that CEO and really like,
34:54
Speaker 1: I'm going to help help you don't become a hostage again.
34:57
Speaker 1: We're not going to go get back, go back and
34:59
Speaker 1: get imprisoned again. We're going to keep you out of
35:01
Speaker 1: prison if you will, right.
35:02
Speaker 2: Well, And part of it is, yeah, I mean, all
35:04
Speaker 2: these processes are going to help free the CEO, but
35:07
Speaker 2: the final piece that ultimately frees them is that partner. Right.
35:11
Speaker 2: So there are different levels of chiefs of staff. They're lower,
35:14
Speaker 2: you know, basically level one, level two, level three, right,
35:18
Speaker 2: and depending on what the CEO needs. But that chief
35:22
Speaker 2: of staff is the partner to the CEO. It's the
35:24
Speaker 2: co pilot. Yeah, so the co pilot. Yeah, does the
35:29
Speaker 2: co pilot sometimes have control of the plane, sure, But
35:32
Speaker 2: the one who's ultimately in command is the captain yep, okay,
35:36
Speaker 2: And that's what a great chief of staff does for you.
35:40
Speaker 2: So you know, the chief of staff will go to
35:43
Speaker 2: meetings in place of the CEO, not all of them,
35:45
Speaker 2: but plenty of them. They also go to meetings with
35:48
Speaker 2: the CEO. Okay, and you know, we have a little
35:53
Speaker 2: guide that we use to help CEOs, but CEOs need
35:57
Speaker 2: to think of We need to think of it as
35:59
Speaker 2: do I need to be in that meeting?
36:02
Speaker 1: Right?
36:02
Speaker 2: Well, let's see, if I have to give a go
36:04
Speaker 2: no go decision, I need to be in that meeting.
36:08
Speaker 2: Right If it is a preparation to get me to
36:11
Speaker 2: note a go no go, I do not need to
36:13
Speaker 2: be in the meeting. The chief of staff can run
36:14
Speaker 2: it for me, right. Okay, that starts to take a
36:18
Speaker 2: huge amount of time because meetings, especially with founders, but
36:21
Speaker 2: with all CEOs, take an immense amount of time away
36:26
Speaker 2: from them strategizing.
36:28
Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, working on working on the business. Yeah, absolutely,
36:33
Speaker 1: they're in the minisia. I know we're getting close to
36:36
Speaker 1: into the podcast. You've covered a lot of great, you
36:38
Speaker 1: know information. I like that that you've given us a
36:41
Speaker 1: way to think about things differently with this organized scaffold
36:44
Speaker 1: and building that out and then bringing a chief of
36:47
Speaker 1: staff in there to help you and and be that,
36:50
Speaker 1: like you said, co pilot if you will, And that's
36:53
Speaker 1: I think empowering hopefully if you're listening to whether you're
36:56
Speaker 1: the CEO currently or you're wanting to move into that
36:58
Speaker 1: role or in that place, you're already you got this
37:01
Speaker 1: great insight from Carol to like, oh, I should think
37:03
Speaker 1: about this thing a little bit differently. I'm going to
37:06
Speaker 1: make sure as you guys are listening, Carol and I
37:08
Speaker 1: are connected on LinkedIn or all the show notes, we're
37:10
Speaker 1: gonna have a grade in there. Her in articles will
37:12
Speaker 1: put a link into that too, so you guys can
37:13
Speaker 1: go check them out. There's just a ton of resources
37:15
Speaker 1: on our website to a vertical elevation. But Carol, as
37:18
Speaker 1: we're as we're getting close to in wrapping up the
37:20
Speaker 1: podcast here, you've covered a lot of different things. So
37:22
Speaker 1: if I'm if you're, if the CEO is listening in
37:24
Speaker 1: here and they've they've kind of feeling convicted, they're self aware,
37:28
Speaker 1: what would you encourage them to do? Obviously, we'll put
37:31
Speaker 1: the content information so they can reach out to you
37:33
Speaker 1: and have a follow up conversation, but what could they
37:35
Speaker 1: do today just to kind of help move the needle forward.
37:39
Speaker 2: I would invite them to sit down and start to
37:42
Speaker 2: make a list of their daily the daily things that
37:45
Speaker 2: they do. Yeah, okay, just start keep a journal. Do
37:49
Speaker 2: it for a week, even Okay, I was in the
37:52
Speaker 2: office at seven thirty, I did this from seven thirty
37:55
Speaker 2: to eight o'clock. I did this from a day fifteen
37:57
Speaker 2: whatever that looks like. Keep a journal, because otherwise you're
38:01
Speaker 2: having to think, Okay, what did I do at that time?
38:03
Speaker 2: What did I do at that time? This way, I'm
38:05
Speaker 2: a big I'm a big advocate of, you know, the
38:07
Speaker 2: sort of learning by doing the Socratic method. Yes, right,
38:11
Speaker 2: So the minute you take pen to paper and start
38:14
Speaker 2: writing all that down and then look at what where
38:16
Speaker 2: you've just spent your time for a week, and often
38:19
Speaker 2: the me thinking, holy crap, what was I look at
38:22
Speaker 2: all the time I'm wasting? Yes, that will help it
38:26
Speaker 2: hit home for you and to see, well, do I
38:30
Speaker 2: really need to be doing this, or do I really
38:32
Speaker 2: need to be doing that? What could I be doing
38:34
Speaker 2: if I had support in those areas somebody else doing
38:37
Speaker 2: that or that, or the actual person that's supposed to
38:40
Speaker 2: be doing that is doing that. So the decision doesn't
38:42
Speaker 2: and you know you talked about that early, the decision
38:45
Speaker 2: doesn't fall back on the founder, right, The founder you know,
38:48
Speaker 2: leaves that term bottleneck a lot because the founder or
38:50
Speaker 2: the CEO ends up being the bottleneck to the company.
38:53
Speaker 2: So that's what I would do. That's a real pen
38:55
Speaker 2: to paper thing that you can start to do. Think
38:57
Speaker 2: where am I spending my time?
38:59
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yeah. And then once you do that, go weet
39:02
Speaker 1: out to Carol because you already have some great foundation
39:04
Speaker 1: to get started. Carol, I think this has been a
39:06
Speaker 1: very powerful conversation. I appreciate your perspective that you're really
39:10
Speaker 1: helping those business owners not just push harder, but they
39:14
Speaker 1: really helping them step back and build something that they
39:16
Speaker 1: can operate on a legacy, something that they can leave
39:19
Speaker 1: behind and feel proud about. And again, if you're listening
39:22
Speaker 1: and you feel like this resonator, I want you to
39:23
Speaker 1: make sure you guys, reach out to Carol and connect
39:26
Speaker 1: with her. You know, is your business really built a
39:29
Speaker 1: scale or something that's really dependent upon you to make
39:32
Speaker 1: the decisions of momentum. That's what Carol just suggested to
39:34
Speaker 1: you there. That's the real shift there. And Carol, I
39:37
Speaker 1: just want to say thank you for coming on and
39:38
Speaker 1: sharing your insights. It's been fantastic having you here.
39:41
Speaker 2: No my pleasure, David, this is a great conversation.
39:43
Speaker 1: I appreciate it absolutely well. As always, we appreciate you
39:47
Speaker 1: guys following along and listening, lead, comment and like. Sure
39:51
Speaker 1: Carol gets those and happy back here on the Business
39:55
Speaker 1: Roundtable podcast. Thanks everybody, have an amazing day. Until next time,
39:59
Speaker 1: be well,