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Mom to Two Sets of Twins: Preeclampsia, Postpartum Depression & Not Being Afraid to Ask For Help · Twin Mom Life

• Shirley: what if you have twins again? I'm like, it's not gonna happen, you know? Like, I'm not gonna be that statistic. It's not gonna happen to me. We just want one other one, you know, Jessielee Sittig: Hello and Welcome to the Twin Mom Life podcast. I'm your host, Jess. I created this podcast to help build community, connection, and most importantly, friendships among moms of multiples. Being a twin mom can be amazing and magical. That twin bond is unlike anything I've ever witnessed, but it can also be isolating and overwhelming. I'll be chatting with other twin moms, diving deep into the twin experience. giving advice on what works for us so you don't have to learn the hard way. Juggling two babies at the same time is challenging, but I'm confident we can learn from each other and figure out how to raise these babies together. Jess Sittig: welcome to the podcast. Today we have Shirley. How are you doing? Shirley: Thank you. I'm good. I'm excited. Thank you for having me. Jess Sittig: Me too. Okay, so you have two sets twins. Shirley: I do double trouble times two. Jess Sittig: I cannot wait to I have so many questions for you. Yeah, I Shirley: And most people do, so Jess Sittig: bet. Well, aside from having two sets of twins, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Shirley: Yes, so I am currently based in Tel Aviv. I was born in Tel Aviv, but I grew up in Southern California. I have two sets of twins, like you mentioned. my oldest ones are five, Kai and Reef, and the youngest ones are twenty-two months, Dylan and Abigail. So I got that one girl in. It was pretty shocking. but yeah. and I've lived two Through two completely different twin postpartum seasons of my life, which is definitely a story in itself. the first twins happened when my husband, he's an orthopedic surgeon, he was just starting his residency. And if you're not you know familiar with what that is, it's essentially a seven-year residency and You're basically you're not a student, but you're not a you're not you're not out yet and you're under like the scope of the hospital. So you are working hard and you're not around. And you know, experiencing the shock of all of this while he's doing that was just was a lot, but we managed through with it. we're like, wait a minute, there's double in here. And so on top of all the normal shock of what his day-to-day life is, we're like, yeah, we gotta deal with this. the sleepless nights, learning to breastfeed two babies at once without putting pressure on myself, but putting pressure on myself, I'm sure most of you you know, felt that as well. and figuring out just like the newborn stage and what that means. I mean, most people go through having a singleton and sort of, you know, being able to figure that out along the way. And all of a sudden when you're dealing with two different babies who need two different needs, it's it's a lot. And so I remember feeling like parenting, I was parenting a bit solo through some of the hardest hours of the day and some of the hardest hours Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: in the evening, and also holding a space, you know, for him and how hard it is for him through his training as well. So by the second time around, with the second set of twins, it only came about two and half, three years later. but things were a bit different. Like he had started his Career, our life was a bit more solid with how we built our foundation, but it just made me realize how there's still so much to learn, even if you've already experienced this once, experiencing it again is still a shock. and how different each pre- and postpartum can be. and just how much support you truly need. I mean, his family is his parents live here. Tel Aviv and they're both working doctors, but they are they have been great and they become really available. My parents still live in California and they come and visit twice a year. So for those who know or don't know, having family support is so huge. And some of your closest friends can become your support, but it can also be really you know, it it can feel really alone at the same time. because most Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: of my friends have singletons, I think all of them, until I started to learn about other twin moms. So after all like that firsthand experience, I think that learning along the way, I I felt like all of a sudden that this could be like my new focus. So you know, I've always worked in sales in big corporates and startups and I learned how to build relationships and sort of understand what people's needs are and I kind of felt like an epiphany. Like maybe I should be working more with women. Maybe I should be focusing on other moms like yourself and others that like, you know, need to feel connected and just don't feel lost because I felt so lost in that. So that's just a little bit about me and my experience so far, but We'll be digging deeper into that later. Jess Sittig: Yes, I can't wait to I mean, like I said, I have I have all the questions. But before before Shirley: Yeah. Keep them coming. Jess Sittig: we get into the meat of it, can you tell me how you filled your cup today? Shirley: Yes. I love this part about your podcasts and I feel like a little bit of a you know not a not a groupie, but I love the fill your cup aspect because I think that some people think that filling your cup is something it has to be something big, you know, like going to the gym or you know, going and meeting out with girlfriends, which is a huge cup filler. But for me, sometimes it's just like having five minutes to like breathe deeply before I start my day. I feel like sometimes Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shirley: I forget to like pause and really focus on the inside and like my well-being. so coffee's great and those quiet times are great, but like just like stopping and taking some deep breaths in my room, making my bed, because that's part of like starting your day. If you do like one Task, you know, to start your day, it could set the the tone for the rest of it. And it's actually really worked for me. So I really tried to focus doing that. And I think today specifically I did that because I knew I'd be talking to you, but I do do my best to do that. but I think that if I also how had to you know look forward and and start thinking about other ways, like recharging, just focusing on recharging myself Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: and Also speaking to you filled my cup because I have conversations with my kids and I need to have also conversations with adults and other women. So that definitely filled my cup as well. Jess Sittig: yay, I love that. I feel like Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: that is a big thing I've learned also from asking this question to I twin moms. I mean it does not have to be this extravagant thing to fill your cup. And Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: I think, like you were saying, people think of it as like, I had a girls' night. And that's great, but also. Putting on eye patches or like going Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: on a quick 10-minute walk or taking five Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: minutes to breathe. So I I love Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: that you said that. And it's so true. I agree. So today for me, it is so hot. We are in middle of, I guess, end of summer, mid-August. It's so hot here. And Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: we have not had a lot of outside time because it's been so hot. And one thing that we did today is we went on a walk. Kind of early before it got so hot. And it was so nice to get out. One of my Shirley: That's nice. Jess Sittig: friends who lives across the street joined us. So it was kind of like a double whammy because I got to move my body and talk with her. And the boys got out inside time. So that was very nice. We didn't last long. But Shirley: It makes a huge difference. Even if you don't last long 'cause it's hot and it's really hot and humid out here, just the fresh air, it depends on where you are, but just the fresh air and the circulation of your body can really change your mood. And I that's also something that I've been trying to work on because it's it it can sometimes feel like getting out of the house is a huge ordeal for me at least, because I'm currently with the little ones at home. their starting daycare in September. And so you feel like you're in your cave. You feel kind of just like sluggish. So taking a walk outside is definitely something to fill up my cup. And I agree. I think just getting out there is it could really just set the mood for the day. Jess Sittig: It was really nice. And it's just so cute what the boys are starting to say. Like they are always listening. We were got back from the walk and we're sitting outside and one of my sons looks at me and just goes, It's a beautiful day. Shirley: So cute. You should write those things down. I have Jess Sittig: It was Shirley: like notes that I write down what my kids say so that I can look back on it. So you should definitely do that as well. Jess Sittig: I love that. That's a good reminder. We have that too. And I feel like I was really good at updating it when they first started talking. And now Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: that they're three, I feel like I haven't updated it in a while. So that's a good point. It was so cute and just funny. Shirley: It's cute. Jess Sittig: Like it is a beautiful day. So I loved that. That was very cut-filling and made me laugh out loud. So Shirley: The in the innocence of our of our children. They're not you know, they don't know e everything else yet. So the the littlest things they say Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: is so beautiful. Jess Sittig: Yes, Okay, Take me to the moment that you found out about your second set of twins. Shirley: Okay. So yeah. aside by being shocked that getting pregnant the second time around felt kind of quicker than the first. I didn't really realize I was pregnant until I actually was like, okay, I'm gonna take a pregnancy test. And the first time it came out negative and I was like, okay, you know, let's just wait a few days, even though I didn't tell my husband I was even Gonna take one. I waited a few days, took another one, came out positive. And I was like, Okay, wow, this is it. You know, maybe I should do a blood test just to make sure. Like I really gotta be sure about this. Took a blood test and the beta was really high. And I was like, hmm, either I'm really far along, or this is gonna be twins again. And all of my friends and people that I've met along the way, when they're like, are you gonna try again? you know, it's It's been, you know, what one year, two years. I'm like, dude, we have doubles. Like, let's just wait a second. You know, it's always the question. Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: what if you have twins again? I'm like, it's not gonna happen, you know? Like, I'm not gonna be that statistic. It's not gonna happen to me. We just want one other one, you know, like three. We'll we'll be good with three. And mind you, my husband wanted to try After the first one, like literally like a year later, he's let's just get it done. I'm like, get it done? Are you the one going through this, you know, physical change? He's like, let's just get it done. You know, it's like the doctor, and it is so practical, which I love, but it's like, let's just wait a little bit. So Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: so I took the beta, the beta is really high, called him, and he was like, So I checked with the nurses, and they said you're either far along, or you know, the worst case scenario is it's it's not the worst case scenario, but you know, the other scenario is. Is that it's twins, but it's not gonna be that. So just go get an ultrasound. So I did, and I'm there on my own because my husband's working, and and I'm like, all right, so I'm telling him, you know, I have twins at home and I yeah, I I'm pregnant again, you know, I have the beta, but I need an ultrasound. And so he was like very nonchalant about it. And he was like, Okay, so here you can see on the screen, here's sack one. And I'm like, wait, is he gonna say sack two? Here's the second sack. I'm like, wait, what? No. He's like, yes. I'm like, no, yes. Like in the movies. I'm like, no. He's like, Jess Sittig: Yeah. Shirley: yes, you have two sacks. You are pregnant with twins. I was shaking. I was like, my gosh, what? Jess Sittig: Bet. Shirley: What? And you read about how people have like, you know, a shock, or what's the word I'm looking for when you have like, Gender disappointment, right? Because that's Jess Sittig: Like disappointment. Shirley: right. Which I used to think before becoming a mom was like, how could you have that? But like obviously, since Jess Sittig: Hmm. Shirley: becoming a mom, I've been so less judgmental about those things because it's like you were Jess Sittig: Sure. Same. Shirley: expecting one. I was so ready to have an experience of just being able to focus on one because I didn't have that before. And all of a sudden I was like, wow, these are my cards. Like I have another set. Jess Sittig: Hmm. Shirley: I'm the statistic, like I've been, you know. Jess Sittig: Yeah. Shirley: What we're talking about. And I walked out of the office or out of the doctor's office and I immediately called my husband on video. And he's like, I'm in the middle of seeing patients. Is everything okay? I was like, Yeah. He's like, You're still pregnant. I'm like, yes. He's like, Is the baby okay? Like I was like, he's like, Don't tell me it's too I was like, they're both okay. Like Jaw dropped. He's like, my God, are you? How are you doing? He's I I'll I'll talk to you after, but are you okay? I'm like, I'm I'm okay. We're gonna be okay. It took a while to settle in, and I don't know about you, but like my first pregnancy, like I waited a long time before telling anybody because I was, you know, very worried about how the whole process was gonna be, and just you hear about vanishing twin syndrome, and you hear about every Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: like negative thing that could happen. And so it took a while before we shared the news, but I was just I couldn't. I was like, my gosh, this is just so much to take in. I have to share it. And I didn't. I waited a while. So it was I'm gonna say it again. It was shocking. Yeah. Jess Sittig: So how many weeks were you at that first ultrasound? And then how long did it take you to tell people again? And then what were their reactions? Shirley: Yeah. Wow. Good questions. Yeah. So I I was six weeks. So still at the beginning, Jess Sittig: Okay. Shirley: but not two or six or seven weeks. And I think I couldn't wait. And I I think that I maybe mentioned to my mom like two weeks later or something like that because she was here on a visit. And the whole reason why I took a pregnancy test is because I had like morning sickness one day, which I never had. And she was like to my husband, do you think she's pregnant? He's like, I hope so. And like it was all around me. And I'm like, God, I feel sick. Please don't talk to me. So I think that our family found out first, really on, and we told them, please keep it a secret. They have big mouths. It's hard for them. And then I think that with friends we waited, I think it was like four five months in, maybe five months. I think a little bit less than the first time, because it was just a lot. Like it was life, it's life changing to go from two to four. And yes, it's also life changing to go from one to three or you know, everyone like I'm giving space for everyone's shocking experience. But all of a sudden when you have like doubles, Jess Sittig: I think you win. Shirley: yeah, and it's like I don't even know if I want to win, but it's like you gotta you gotta change your car. You gotta make sure you have enough like rooms in your house. you know, like are you if you're working, like what are you doing, you know. It's so all of these things we had to take into consideration. But it was like, Wow, y wait, or or once I got pr you know, the big bump, people were like, so what are you having now? Boy or girl? And I'm like, both and they're like, Wait, what? You have two right here and you have another twins. Jess Sittig: That's wild. So do you know, like Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: not to put you on the spot at all, I can totally look this up, but do you know what the statistic Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: is of like having a second set? I'll add it. We'll add it to the show notes. Shirley: I did. I Yeah, yeah, please. I actually wanted to come with that statistic. So now I feel kind of that I didn't. But the chances of getting pregnant with twins the second time are much higher. So essentially anyone who has had a twin pregnancy or multiples, you're like fifty fifty if I'm not mistaken. Like it's there. Like you're gonna have either just one more or you're gonna have Another set. yeah. Jess Sittig: Yeah. I've heard it was higher for sure. And I Shirley: It's higher for sure. Jess Sittig: so you were actually the first mom I have interviewed who has two sets of twins. I feel like I've, you know, now that I'm more like in the twin world, I see it more like on social media Shirley: Yeah. Yeah. Jess Sittig: and stuff, but I have never actually talked to someone with two sets of twins. So this is a first on Twin Mom Life Podcast. Shirley: Yeah, I mean I don't I personally don't know either. I I had it's very strange a neighbor a neighbor a few years back, she was much older than me, who told me when I was pregnant with my first is that she I mean she had twins, but she said that her first set she had another set of twins, but she had to terminate the pregnancy, unfortunately, but then she got pregnant again Jess Sittig: Hm. Shirley: with another set of twins. So when I received the news At the doctor's office, I was definitely thinking about her and I was like, my gosh, this this this happened to me, and I didn't think it would. Jess Sittig: I bet. Well, I love that you were like, I'm this, I'm that statistic. Like Shirley: Yeah, yeah. Jess Sittig: that's so wild. I'm actually really impressed that you waited to tell like your family and stuff. Cause even two weeks, I feel like I have no chill. I called Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: my mom. I'm like, I called my mom and my mother-in-law in the car, like at the parking lot of the doctor's office. Shirley: Crazy. It's it's something really hard to keep a secret because it's Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: so different. It's so different. And out of the you know, respect of my partner and also just we knew that we needed to like really keep it to ourselves just a bit. And I was very, you know, I just need to make sure that they're healthy and that they're okay. 'Cause there are so many stories and like I got in my head a Jess Sittig: Yeah. Shirley: bit about it. So when I found out again about the second set of twins, like a lot of shock factor, how are you gonna you know, logistics and whatever, but also one of the first things that I thought about was also the amnio test because I'm now thirty nine, but I was thirty seven, I think. And I know that in the States it's not as common, but here in Israel it's very common to do the amnio test. And with the first set, Jess Sittig: Hmm. Okay. Shirley: the first set I was not willing to do it, not because I don't believe in the test and the results and what you need to know. And but I preferred to do the blood test and everything luckily came out okay. But the second time around we were like clear that that that's what we were going to do. And I was very afraid of, you know, what it could do. Like there are miscarriages. It happens with Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: multiples is much higher. So along with the shock factor of, you know, our whole life changing, there's a lot of different tests that you need to do and just you automatically become like pregnancy's different. Like you're at a risk. Your pregnancies risk. And so I was like, I'm gonna have to go through that again and do all of the different things again. So that also was a lot and I felt like I had to share it as quickly as possible. So yeah, waiting to share that with my family and our family, it took it took a bit of us to just like hold it together. But as soon as we were able to share, then it was like, Okay, the support's here and we know what we need to do. Jess Sittig: I have a logistical question about the amnio So with Shirley: Yeah. Yeah. Jess Sittig: di-di twins, did you have to do it tw like two like going into each separate sack? Shirley: Yes. Jess Sittig: Okay. That must have been scary. Shirley: And it so physically didn't hurt. the physical didn't scare me. What scared me was just what could happen after. I got a lot in my head though. I read a lot of research. I was with very good doctors, and knew the precautions to take before and after. But there's still that like, you know, that what if could happen. Just like I was a statistic getting pregnant twice, like what if this could happen? And we made the decision because we felt like we just want to know that everything's okay because we do have other kids at home that we need to take care of. So we just wanted to be prepared. And I think it's a very controversial thing, more so in the US than it is here. Here it's very common to do it. And in the US it's more controversial. And so I kinda wasn't sure if I was gonna bring it up, but I think it is a part of my, you know, part of my pregnancy and birthing story and things that I had to overcome, like certain fears I had to overcome and Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: ways to also connect with other twin moms that might be going through that and need the support of what to do. And obviously I'm not giving any medical advice here, but like just the feelings that you have to kind of go through. so that was also a very big part of my whole pregnancy journey, the whole tests of everything you need to check. Jess Sittig: I bet. Well, and like you said, Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: you know, I also had my boys in my mid thirties. So even just having a more advanced maternal age brought up other risk factors that I was worried about even before we found out it was twins. That was kind of something that we were discussing and that I was afraid of, like just at being at higher risk for other things I know that was something that I was was was on our radar and we didn't do the the amnio. It wasn't something, I mean, like you said, it's not common in the US. It wasn't something that was offered to us. But with both Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: pregnancies, we've done the NIPT testing because Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: we just wanted to know if there was something going on. We wanted to be like to understand that and per prepare and under and understand. So Shirley: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Being prepared is essentially the big one here. And it's not something Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: that is just given as part of like in health insurance here, like like the basics, like Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: something that you do have to do outside. So which is interesting 'cause most people that I don't do it anyways. So it's really just about what fits your family and the preparation that you want to do before and and after. So yeah. Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I know you were mentioning earlier, like, okay, needing a bigger car and these other logistical Shirley: Right. Jess Sittig: things. So while you were pregnant, what were other things that were going through your mind? Like, we're gonna need a bigger car. That was actually the first thing that my husband said when we found out we were pregnant with twins. So I think that's probably Shirley: Yeah, yeah. Jess Sittig: a common thing a lot of moms and and parents think through. what else was on your logistical plan of going from two to four? Shirley: Yeah. So the first time round, like I can't forget this sentence that kept was kept, you know, kept like triggering me being, you know, just here while my parents are back in California, is how much help you're going to need. And every time Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: I like heard the word help, it like Gave me the chills. It's like, what? I'm not capable. Like I was born to do this. This Jess Sittig: Mm, okay. Shirley: is what I felt like I needed to do. So in terms of like logistics, is how how do you plan? So the first time around, when I would hear, like, you need to hire help. Maybe you need a live in. Maybe you need help around the clock. You need a night nurse. You need this, you need that. You need to change your, you know, the setup of your room and things like that. And like, I just needed to take a step back and kind of like sit with myself and figure it out on my own. But then I realized what's wrong with accepting help? What's wrong with accepting the reality that you're going into? maybe speaking to other women who are twin moms, you know, who have gone through it and just get to like the nitty-gritty without the sugar coating. There's a lot of sugar coating out there or or stories that you just don't hear if you don't open up and talk about it yourself. So in terms of like preparing logistically the second time around, we needed to change our Car to go from like a four-seater to now it's like a seven-seater. So we're like big van family. And and I'm Jess Sittig: Love it. Shirley: okay with that. Like my mom drove a van, a Honda Odyssey, and I loved it. It was like the first car that I drove in high school. and so I was like, comfort is the best. Like, I don't care what I look like, it could be looking like a spaceship. As long as all my kids are safe and we're comfortable, that's that's what we gotta go for. So I think that was like the biggest change. Luckily, we had already moved into a home that had extra rooms. So figuring out where everybody was gonna sleep was not as big of an issue, but taking turns of how to do morning routines and Who's going to be taking care of the kids, taking them to school and bringing them back, especially at the beginning, the first few Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: months? Which brings me back to what I'm so passionate about is setting up other new twin moms or second time twin moms up for success. Because some of these things just pop up and they surprise you. And what better way to manage like a crisis like that is being prepared? Like you're never truly Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: 100% prepared, but starting with the big things like, changing your vehicle or knowing how your routines will look like and with minor changes. making sure you're living in a space that's comfortable for everybody and like your twins will be with you whether you choose that or not at the beginning in your in your room. But do you have the space in your home to set it up for you for, you know, what you need. so yeah, those are some of the bigger things that we had to deal with and like We had just put away the strollers, but now we have to bring back the strollers. Luckily I didn't sell. So yeah, luckily I didn't sell or get rid of a lot of stuff. Like I had already a twin stroller, big chunky one that I shouldn't have used or lifted after my C section, but we used that again. And yeah, it's just a lot of like pre-planning and being okay with that and asking for help where you where you where and when you can. Jess Sittig: I love that you brought that up earlier. I can a hundred percent see how people bringing up, my gosh, you're gonna need so much help, how that would be triggering and like overwhelming to hear that over and over again. So coming to terms with that, and then also being able to accept help. I had a very hard time accepting help with my daughter. I I almost felt like I had something to prove. I'm her mom. I can do this. I don't need help. And she was born in the height of COVID. Well, Shirley: Right. Jess Sittig: she was born in February of 2020. So she was a Shirley: Wow. Jess Sittig: newborn during the height of COVID. So our delivery was completely normal. My husband, mom, mother-in-law, all in the room, normal experience. But the postpartum, I know. Shirley: Wow, that's a lot. Is is that a normal experience? That was a lot of people in your room. Jess Sittig: It was not the same with the boys. So this is so funny. So my mom had always said, I really want to be in the room with you. And I said, can can we like table this? Can you can you be on call? My mom and I are really close. And I just I didn't know how I was gonna feel. Shirley: Same, me too. So I understand. Jess Sittig: Yeah, I was just like, and luckily I was able to be super open with her. Like, hey, I I really don't know what I want. Can you kind of be on call? I'm I'm an only child. So I feel like she also has the ability to be like, okay, that that's fine. That's a fine agreement. So we went to the hospital. I was induced. I'll make this quick. I don't want to like focus on this, but how how Shirley: Yeah, sure, sure. Jess Sittig: we got that many people in the room. So around four in the morning, my contractions were so painful. I hadn't had the epidural yet. And I remember just thinking, I want my mom. That's All I want. So I Shirley: yeah. Jess Sittig: called her at four in the morning. My husband was so supportive, but I just feel like there's there's like the comfort that you get from your husband and then like a motherly, I just needed my mom in that moment. So Shirley: For sure. Jess Sittig: I called her at four in the morning and she must have been waiting by her phone, like bagpacked, ready to go. And she was Shirley: she had her bag packed for sure. Jess Sittig: ready. She was immediately ready. And she came, I got the epidural, and she was just so great. And then after I had the epidural, I was like, I am in the best mood. Everybody come check it out. My mother-in-law Shirley: my gosh. Jess Sittig: is a nurse, and I knew that she would like, of course, want to be there and be supportive, but also like her nursing side would love to witness a birth. So Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: she she had a great experience. My mom did tell me after the fact, if you have another kid, I think I'll stay home and watch that child. Or watch, watch your daughter. Well, you go have another child. It was she Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: had a great experience being there overall, but I think like the the blood and the the Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: there's a lot going on. I Shirley: first of all, I'm really close with my mom as well. Super close. It's I I don't know other friends that are as close. Maybe w I have one other friend and I think it's an incredible friendship that we have. and I didn't have that opportunity because both the times were C-section and I felt that that it I should just maybe not have her part of that. I I thought I would dur during the first time, but I realized that it it could be kind of hard for her to see her daughter being, Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: you know, going through a surgery, very intense surgery. Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: So I guess diving into the my birthing story really quickly, both times are pretty traumatic because the first Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: time around I wasn't feeling well and so we went to the hospital and they caught that I had preclampsia and Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: I didn't have it diagnosed before. And for those who don't know, if you don't have the C section right then and there that you're being put into danger and so We had to get that really quickly happening. So I had an emergency C-section a week before, same the second time around, also happened a week before, also pre-eclampsia, but the first time around it was very isolating. Like I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I thought I was gonna be able to prepare myself for what a c section really is. And I guess I didn't have that, like lack of knowledge, maybe the lack of knowledge. kind of put me through this days or or whatever it might have been, but it was pretty traumatizing. And so I think that that kind of led to sort of like the postpartum depression that I did have upon Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: the other overwhelming things that you experience after birth, like breastfeeding and juggling too and just being new to everything. The second time around I really made sure to prepare myself. Like I was like, okay, this happened the first time. It could happen again. It's okay. Other women have gone through postpartum depression. You're like, I was more open about it. I connected with other moms who went through it. I was really just prepared and I was like, but maybe it might not happen. Maybe I'm not gonna have an emergency C-section. There's no signs of preeclampsia. Second time around happened, closer to the due date of the surgery. And have blood tests, not feeling well. And there it goes again, pre-eclampsia. We need to have the surgery today, a Jess Sittig: Yeah. Shirley: week before, around the same time as the first. And this time, though, the support from the medical staff and just everything was so much better. I I still experienced postpartum depression, but I was on it and More open about it and just proud of myself for tackling the signs that I could feel that were triggering for me. like the breastfeeding. Like I breastfed Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: the first two Kai and Reef for a year, but it was a long journey and it was a hard journey at first. And I was like, why do women say that breastfeeding is so easy and amazing or some say it's so hard, it hurts. Like I didn't understand the two different extremes. and I went through those two different extremes. One was able to latch, the other one wasn't Jess Sittig: Hm. Shirley: able. And it was just like this wave of feelings. And then the second time around I was like, okay, you got this. You know what it's like. The natural connection happened and I was like, wow, what a What a life ch like changing experience I get to relive it and kind of like fix what happened. And it just all this knowledge and all of this like experience that I've had, like I just wanna be able to hold another new twin mom's hand and be like, it's it's okay. It's it's this is what you're gonna go through and don't expect anything and expect everything and you're not alone and It's possible. You can do it. You're you're gonna be okay. Like and that and that just like lights like my passion for wanting to, you know, kind of just like give forward and help all those that feel kind of lost in it, you know, not knowing that they're actually going to feel all of these emotions. Jess Sittig: one thing that stuck out to me while you were talking about that and the postpartum depression was that the second time around you kind of knew what to look for. And what your Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: triggers were. And it sounds like you gave yourself a lot more grace the second time around that maybe you didn't do the first time. And I was like nodding my head. Absolutely, I felt that way also. I did not have postpartum depression with the boys. I was just preparing for the fact that I would because I had it so severely Shirley: Right. Jess Sittig: with my daughter. That was something I was very afraid of when I was found out I was pregnant with twins, as I had heard. Because of like the hormone shifts and things like that, Shirley: Right. Jess Sittig: that twin moms were more likely to experience postpartum depression. Shirley: Yes. Jess Sittig: And I just remember with my daughter, we were isolated because of COVID, anyways. And I was so scared to tell anybody, quite honestly. I was afraid they would take my baby away. I was afraid people was gonna think I was crazy. I was just afraid of the stigma behind having something like that. And I remember After we got through that, just thinking if I got pregnant again and if I had that again, I will get help immediately. So I'm just glad to hear that that was something that, you know, you did the second time around and that you gave yourself grace. I think that was a reason that I switched so quickly to pumping with the boys. My daughter and I were able to kind of figure out breastfeeding, Shirley: Right. Jess Sittig: but the first several months were very rocky, very painful. I had mastitis and I wouldn't Shirley: Yeah. Wow. Jess Sittig: give up. Not that I suggest anyone gives up. I think that's the wrong terminology, but I was so stubborn that I was like, Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: I don't care how much pain I'm in. I'm breastfeeding this baby. And with the boys, it was like we needed to make decisions based on our family unit. And the route that worked the best after having twins was to pump and to bottle feed. Shirley: I think that holding a place for postpartum depression, especially with twin pregnancies, it could even happen before is is so important and definitely like a part of my journey and what I want to be able to like help you know give support to other women. I think that when I first read about Denise Richards experiencing postpartum depression, I kind of was like How could that happen? Again, this is like not the n the judgmental side of things for me, but it was most like I never read that. Like I didn't have that. I didn't know other friends who experienced it. To this day, I don't Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: know other friends that experienced postpartum depression. Maybe one out of the I have like 20 good girlfriends who are all moms. My mom never experienced it. My sister didn't experience it. And she had two C-sections. and she didn't experience that. And so I was like, why am I experiencing it? My mom just felt like she was like gutted. Like, how how is my daughter going through this? And I think it's just, you know, reaching out or getting reached out to, and just making sure that you are supported emotionally and physically, and surrounded by people who just truly care about you. And it's not easy, and it's more common than one can think. And so Hearing about other women going through that, I hope that it opens up a channel for other women who are feeling that and kind of just like are hiding it, that they can open up about it as well. Jess Sittig: Yeah, I think that's one thing like when I sought out to do this podcast that I knew I was going to be open about. And is it easy for me to talk about? No, it's actually very Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: challenging to admit. And it's very hard for me to talk about the details of it. But if I can like say that that was my experience and what I would have done different to make it better. Because I felt like I suffered for a really long time in silence. And I think I suffered for a time that like that wasn't necessary. I did that to myself and I could have gotten help. And one thing that's really cool. So I had my daughter in a different state. And one thing they do out here, and I don't know if this is more common and I didn't have this because of COVID or what, but you know, you have your six week postpartum checkup where there's like an exam I also had a three week postpartum checkup. And it was not a physical exam or anything like that. It was truly a mental health check-in in person. And it made me cry. I and Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: I was fine, I was tired and I was exhausted. And I was figuring out this new life as a mom of three, including twins. But I was, and I I think I was experiencing some like baby blues, but nothing in comparison to what I had been experiencing. But I love that my doctor's office had a three week Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: just mental health check-in. Shirley: So important and I think that that's really missing in general. I I have not birthed in the States, so I'm not sure, but I know that even here, like there's that check-in and you take a quiz and you know, you check to see that it's not just baby blues and there were some, you know, f flags risen, but no one had told me, look, watch yourself because you might be falling into that. the first time, but the second time they knew to ask me because I had mentioned it. And I think that that's so important because I mean we see a lot of celebrities opening up about it now. I mean, even Hayden Pentonier, unfortunately, just with the the news. Jess Sittig: I know. Shirley: But like it's it's something that can't be missed. It's something that can't be missed because sometimes really just a lot of imbalance of hormones and sometimes it's just the isolation that you can feel and it's prevalent I think also with multiples, like moms with multiples. and even men go through some sort of postpartum depression, you know, and that's also not as talked about. And the more we talk about it, the more we connect, the more powerful the information can be and women can feel stronger and and know to prepare themselves. And and I think that that's something that should definitely be bolded and not enough. Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And just like one note on that with my appointment. I I think you brought up a good point. I had said to my doctor that I had post rental depression the first time and that I was concerned about it the second time. So I think Shirley: Yeah. Yeah. Jess Sittig: I filled out the questionnaire, but that isn't what got me. Like what really meant a lot to me was that she physically checked in with me and she asked me, How are you doing? Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: You know, like she took it a step further than just like, You can lie so easily on a questionnaire. I'm fine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when someone takes Shirley: Right. Jess Sittig: the time to check in with you face to face, it is very hard. Shirley: Yes. Jess Sittig: I think I I mean, during that appointment I was crying. And I think that she could tell I was crying because I mean, I told her like, I'm so touched that you're asking me these questions and not just like reading the questionnaire that I filled out and taking the time to Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: take it a step further so that I could get help if I needed it. So Shirley: Exactly. And and Jess Sittig: Yeah, that's that's really huge. Shirley: it's it's huge and it's a real connection and I think that also brings me to why we sort of wanna create also a space for that, for women, like to be able to give that support to the women. Like, yes, you have the baby and the baby is the focus, but can't forget about the new mom or the second time mom, even though it's twins second time around or however n however many kids you have, like that's why I sort of created this like community that I'm trying to build called Two Twin Mama. And It's the knowledge that you have is so powerful to share. Just like your experience and what you're sharing with me is something that I'll take with me and what we are sharing here on your podcast will reach out to other women who might be feeling the same and haven't shared, or their experience to them may have been different. And I think that that's just one way to overcome things. Like postpartum depression can come at different phases as well. The second time around it came later on for me. And all of the things can all different things can trigger it. And so So it's just something that can't be overlooked and yeah. Jess Sittig: Mm. Yeah. Absolutely. And the resource that you were mentioning is that in relation, I know you were talking, I think we're offline about this, so we'll need to give some more Shirley: Right. Jess Sittig: context, but about like being becoming a postpartum twin doula. Shirley: Yes. Yeah. Jess Sittig: Okay, tell me more. That's so awesome. Shirley: So I always, you know, I personally did not have a birthing doula, only because my experience were was going to be C-section both times. And so I felt that I could lean on my husband. and you know, the research and tools that I've built in my toolbox to sort of set me up for success. And boy was I wrong. I mean like there's so much to getting pregnant and having your birthing experience and also after. And so I really sat with myself and I was like, wow, I've kind of went through this twice with every story being different. And I feel like there's a lot of support that needs to be provided right before giving birth. And so the postpartum dual apart also is the education that you kind of receive after. Like, okay, you've experienced this either through C-section or luckily vaginal. And then what do you do? You have two babies and they need different things, but also you need support as well. The more support you get, The better you are going to be at juggling everything new in your life. And so that's really how I created Two Twin Mama. So it's two like TWO and the number two and win, because having twins is like a win. and mama at the end. Jess Sittig: Aw, that's cute. Shirley: Yeah. so my focus is I'm still in training and I'm getting certification at postpartum. Doula is the support that the mom receives after. So everything from how to plan out your day, touching upon breastfeeding, but not going too deep into it yet, and just like your routine, your sleep routines, how to ask for the right kind of help, setting yourself up for success. So the day that you come back from the hospital, you're not as lost as you think that you might be, because you know what you need. You need to have your stations made, you need to have proper sleep, like yes, before that. when you're pregnant people were are always telling you like you're the focus you're the pregnant woman come sit down let me take care of you let me keep coffee something to eat once babies come it's like there's two babies let's reach out and help like but wait a minute The mother also needs support. Can't forget, Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: like she's going through something totally different, a different, unique experience than most singleton moms. And I think every mother needs support after birth. my focus is on twin moms because I've been able to experience that twice. And so that's what I want to be doing. That's what I've started to be doing, like working on. I can send you the website I've been working on, but essentially, Jess Sittig: Please do. Shirley: yeah, essentially. the education is how to prepare yourself so that your life doesn't become chaotic and as crisis man crisis management as you know as one would think and giving you the tools to create a more calm environment and prepare fit your family as well because you're also new to this but your family members don't know how to sort of help you as you become a new mother of multiples. So yeah, that's just a little bit about that and open to questions if you have more or just in general. I think that it's something that I couldn't find for me and I was like, this is what I should be doing. Should be being able to provide that because I didn't have that. Jess Sittig: I think that's so huge. And it makes me think of the sentiment of like, okay, you have a baby. And I'm even just thinking about one. And then you just go home and you're sent home and you don't have like a manual. And what are you supposed to do? And that postpartum support is so huge, especially with twins. And what a perfect person, a mama of two sets of twins to provide that support. That is so awesome. And I'm excited to see. Please send me the resources and I can share that in the show notes and everything. And you know, as a mom of two sets of twins, I would love to know if you have any practical tips that you would provide to mamas on how you manage your day to day with two sets of twins. Shirley: Yeah, thank you. I think that Most of you probably experience this. Every day is different. Every day is different. So knowing how to plan the things that will stay the same sort of help you in routine. Waking up earlier than my kids has helped me. That's something that I learned from my sister and haven't really been able to put into practice until recently actually. And it's made a huge difference. So even waking up like twenty minutes before, obviously my sleep is so important to me and luckily my kids sleep through the night. And that's another conversation for another time, but waking up twenty twenty minutes before my kids and getting their lunches ready, getting their bags ready, kind of planning what I'm gonna be doing with the little ones because they're at home with me and making sure that I know what my kids need for daycare. that's how I sort of set up my morning and then I kind of figure out what I'm gonna be doing the rest of the day with the 22-month-old twins because they're currently not in daycare, they'll be starting in in September. So having a activity and I find it better to have an activity in the morning with them so that the afternoons I can make time and space for my older ones. because they Jess Sittig: Mm, mm-hmm. Shirley: need me just as much. I mean I'm all day with my twenty-two month olds and when the boys come back they really need my focus and they feel it too. They know that I've been with their their brother and sister. And so finding something that we can do together and sh and share the time together has really helped, you know, sort of create a a good schedule for us. it doesn't always work because life is just so Chaotic, I guess. I can't use any other word. Even today I had plans and they didn't come out. But just knowing how to sort of go with the flow. And it's it's Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: not easy. I make mistakes all the time, just like we all can. but sort of ending the day in a soft note, bath time or reading them a story, something that kind of just brings everything together and and having that kind of routine because kids like to know what to expect. Something that Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: maybe first time moms don't know, but when kids know that there's you know what they're going to expect in the morning, afternoon and evening, it kind of helps them as well. So setting that boundary. kind of how I I set my days and then I can set my week that way. but yeah that's what's kind of really helped keep things stable as possible. Jess Sittig: Well, I love that you said having a plan and then being able to roll with the punches if it doesn't happen. Because I Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: feel like that's the biggest thing I've learning, not even since becoming a mom, but since becoming a twin mom specifically. Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: I just feel like with my daughter, I had this very rigid schedule. If it didn't go to plan, it would almost bring me to tears. Like that control piece was so big. And then once I had twins, I still wanted structure because that's how my brain works. And like you said, kids thrive off of a routine, but it was more of a flow versus a rigid, it is 1201, you know, da-da-da-da. So I love that you said that because I think that is a really key piece. I did have one other question back to kind of like the middle of our conversation. I know Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: you were talking about. accepting help. And I am wondering what did that postpartum period look like when you had three year old twins and newborn twins? And how did you manage that? Like did you have help? What did that look like? Shirley: So we tried to prepare for it in advance and kind of interview a few nannies because my parents don't live here and Adam's parents, my husband's parents are here, but working and he's working an intense job that this help would need to come as soon as possible. And the help would need to be able to manage, yeah, the morning routine, which is from six to ten. Because my husband l left at six in the morning for his residency and I would Jess Sittig: Wow. Shirley: need to bring the boys to school, but also be with the babies. And then the late afternoon, because he would end late in the evening or sometimes do a 24 hour shift. So yeah, we didn't touch upon this, but this kind of schedule was just really intense. I would need two different types of nannies or help. So I found a person, a woman and a nanny for the morning and she was at my house at six AM helping me get the ki the big kids ready and dressed and fed while I was kind of like finishing the morning feed, but also bringing them down so that she could bring the the big ones to school or I would bring them to school and then she would come back and help me with the newborn so I could catch up on like an hour or two hours of sleep, which we all know doesn't always work. But that was kind of like the first half of the morning, six to ten. By 10, it w felt like already late afternoon for me. And then Jess Sittig: I bet. Shirley: yeah, and then someone else would help at two, from like two to six thirty. So she would come in and help me with the younger twins while I was kind of getting myself ready to pick up the boys and do something with them after I had to feel that normalcy, that connection. So it really takes a village to be able to support and help a double twin mom or even just a regular twin mom or just even a singleton. Like it doesn't cancel out anyone who is struggling for extra set of hands. But here it's just the double factor. And so without that, I really don't know what I would do. And I I think that I was we were really lucky to found these two women that their jobs were different times of the day, but they both filled in so much of what I needed that it was life changing. Like the one who came in the afternoon, like she would help even with things after the babies would be put to bed to help me. Like to focus on Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: me as the mother. Like to make sure that if I didn't have something to eat that she would tell remind me, like you made food earlier or whoever else made food, come sit down and eat. Like let me clean up here. Let me Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: put them to sleep. Let me wash them. And so asking for help is not a bad thing. And if you don't know how to ask Then there are ways of going through and getting through that because it's not something to be shameful of. And it can be in in so many different forms. And that's what really helped me is help can be in so many different forms. It doesn't have to be Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: physically feeding the baby if you don't want that, because I didn't want that. I was like, I'm breastfeeding. Like, how are they gonna help feed the baby unless I'm pumping? Which was also something I did. But it was okay, let me do a load of laundry for you. Or Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: let me feed you or let me take them for a walk so that they're calm and so that you can do something else, you know? so that's how we kind of survive the first few months, the first five or six months of the baby's life. Jess Sittig: That seems like a really smart way to handle it, to have like a morning shift helper and an evening shift helper. Because I agree with you, the middle of the day can seem less chaotic, but it's like the morning Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: rush and then the evening witching hours that are always wild. Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: So I think that's very smart, especially with your husband having such a demanding schedule and Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: not having family help. That's Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: That's all a lot. So I'm glad that you guys were able to be kind of creative and think out of the box on how to make that work. So that Shirley: Yeah, yeah. Jess Sittig: was I just was so curious. I'm like, okay, wait. So how did you, how did you manage the day to day? Shirley: Yeah. I haven't thought about it. I know. I haven't thought about it in a while and it was such a big part of our life. And you sometimes you just seem to like, okay, how did that even How did we succeed in that era? But it was we were in the trenches for a while until they came. A while was like a month in the trenches trying to find someone. It's hard to interview people who really just know what you need and just come and start to help. And so Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Shirley: yeah, I definitely recommend that if you do have multiple kids in the house and you are pregnant with twins or you just gave birth to twins and you need to sort of figure out how your whole day is gonna look, you might need two different people, one for the morning shift and one for the afternoon shift to make it all work. And it does. It happens. Jess Sittig: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's great. And I think a really smart way to divvy up the help. Absolutely. okay, well, it has been such an amazing conversation. I have it's Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: been so interesting to learn about how you've managed two sets of twins and how you manage the shock of it all. And I just really appreciate your advice and your tidbits. And I I know you've already shared a lot along the way, but if you could have a heart to heart with a twin mom or Give her a piece of advice. What would you tell her? Shirley: Yeah, so thought about this a lot because sometimes it's not just like giving the advice. it it's just sitting there and telling her like, look, I I see you. I I know Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: what it's like to be up at 3 a.m., you know, with two babies who are crying, both need you, and you physically cannot hold them both or comfort them both, especially if you're, you know, doing that shift alone or just in general, like, you know, trying to figure it out. And you have to choose. And it's sometimes it's like it it's something in you that like breaks a little bit every time because it's like you have to make that choice. So I mean, I did it largely alone the first time and the second time a little bit and and my husband, you know, still like it hurts him because he wasn't there for a lot of it. but most nice it was me and and it's just like your body, your one body, two babies who needed you, and there's only so much you can give. So nobody tells you like those hardest parts of twin motherhood is just like it's not even just the practical stuff. It's like the loneliness inside of Of a house that's so completely full and full of love, you're never alone, but you feel alone. So I would tell her that you know, you're not feeling that feeling is natural to have. Like you're doing something that was not designed to be done by one person. Like it feels impossible, but sometimes it's not like the reflection of your capability. Like it's just the math. Jess Sittig: Mm. Shirley: Like you're one mother, two babies. you're doing okay and just take it step by step and that's why there's this type of community there for you. And the thing that I wish that someone had told me back then is that again we we talked about the asking for help that it's not a weakness. It's a skill that essentially will will save you. emotionally, mentally, physically, and that you know, when you go deep into survival mode, you don't even really know what to ask for. Like you just are kind of just like working through it and you're kind of just in in the trenches there. And I think that when you're deep in survival mode, asking for help is is difficult. So I think that that's really why I want to focus on that as my passion and I want to be able to like be able to to show and give what other twin moms need and support you know knowing it firsthand so I see you we see you there's a huge community out there like Jess and myself and just know that you're you're not alone and it it could be virtual it could be physical but you're doing the best that you can and be proud of yourself every day Is a day that you should be proud of what you're doing. You're doing a lot. Jess Sittig: I love that. And I feel like that's the biggest thing that twin moms need is twin mom community because they're I love my singleton mom friends. They are amazing, but there are just some things that they will never understand. So having Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: that twin mom community to talk things out, or like you said, just simply feel seen. Like Maybe you Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: feel alone, but you are not. There are lots of other twin moms going through this and leaning into that community. I love that. I think that's so great and so true. So Shirley: Yeah. Jess Sittig: well, Shirley, thank you so much. It has been so fun to chat Shirley: Thank you. Jess Sittig: and I've just really enjoyed our time. Two sets of twins. I'm just so impressed, Mama. Shirley: Yes. It's it's been really great connecting with you as well and and I love your podcast and wishing you Jess Sittig: Thank you. Shirley: lots of good good sessions and I'll be tuning in and thank you so much for your time too. Jess Sittig: Thank you. Yay. Okay, Jessielee Sittig: Thank you for taking the time out of your busy twin mom life to listen along. I hope this podcast shed some light on a topic that's been on your heart and gave you more confidence as a twin mama. If you know a twin mom, please send this her way. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. Check out the show notes to be connected with today's guest and get discount codes for brands I love. See you next Thursday. Until then. You are made for this.