Latest / What's on Your Riste? A Watch Podcast / S01E06: Vintage Cartier Pasha Seatimer, Omega Pre-321, and Why Piaget and Girard-Perregaux Are Underrated

Transcript

S01E06: Vintage Cartier Pasha Seatimer, Omega Pre-321, and Why Piaget and Girard-Perregaux Are Underrated · What's on Your Riste? A Watch Podcast

0:00
I want to start this episode by giving credit where it's
0:03
overdue. The person who got me into
0:05
vintage watches isn't another collector, isn't a YouTube,
0:09
isn't some grizzled old watchmaker in the backroom on
0:12
Geneva. It's my wife.
0:15
The funny part is she has no idea she did it.
0:30
I saw that vintage shine on the dimly screen.
0:34
Welcome back to what's on your rest day.
0:36
I'm watch offski. This is the vintage episode.
0:40
It's a vintage ish episode when I keep promising And finally.
0:44
Delivering. We're going.
0:45
To talk about how to or how I bought vintage and made mistakes
0:49
and how I lost my mind and lost money and maybe, you know, a
0:55
watch shows up at your door and it sucks.
0:57
We're going to talk about vintage and what it actually
1:00
means, what to look for, red flags, when to walk away.
1:05
I mean, what gives me now kind of the green light to pull a
1:09
trigger? We're going to do all of this.
1:11
Through a personal story or two, because I've been burned, I've
1:16
been lucky and I've learned some things kind of along the way and
1:19
I think some of the hard lessons.
1:21
I want to share some of those. With you so that you.
1:23
Don't have to, but first I have to give my wife her flowers
1:26
because she opened the store for me without even knowing.
1:29
Here's the thing about my wife and watches.
1:31
She is not a watch person, not in the way that I am, and
1:37
definitely not the way that you and I are.
1:39
She wouldn't even consider herself a collector.
1:42
She she wouldn't say that word. She would not voluntarily listen
1:46
to a podcast about watches. No offense to her, I I love her,
1:50
she is wonderful, but the deep horological rabbit hole is not
1:54
where she lives. What she does does have is
1:58
taste. She likes thin watches, vintage
2:02
proportions, yellow gold tones, quartz movements, typically just
2:08
because they're usually thinner. She wants to put on a watch,
2:10
glance at the time, walk out the door, not wind anything for 90
2:14
seconds. She's not, you know, while she's
2:16
trying to find her keys. And she has a particular soft
2:20
spot for these rectangular small.
2:22
Watches think of like Omega. Deville models from like the 80s
2:26
and 90s. These kind of gorgeous flat
2:29
beads of rice bracelets, super silky.
2:33
They had those class that would fold over and then kind of
2:35
extend out. So you can, you know, just had a
2:37
little bit. And here's the thing that took
2:39
me years to understand. That is a completely valid way.
2:43
To enjoy watches right? I'm the insane one.
2:46
I get that for me the. Watch nerd version of myself.
2:50
The version that runs a podcast that you know a handful of us
2:54
are going to listen to every watch is an artifact.
2:57
It's a history lesson, it's a movement to study.
3:00
There's a reference to research for her.
3:02
A watch is an accessory and something that she happens to
3:06
love. No service history concerns.
3:08
She doesn't care if it's box and papers.
3:10
No reference number. Deep dives.
3:12
She's not looking at it going is this loom original?
3:15
Just more things like is this comfortable?
3:19
Is it pretty? Does it tell time?
3:21
Yes, great. I like that one right, but I
3:25
realized watching her wear those small vintage omegas and a
3:28
Cartier or two is that she's been collecting vintage.
3:32
Watches along the way. She just never called it that.
3:35
And she taught me something I didn't know I needed to learn.
3:39
Vintage doesn't have to be a project.
3:42
Vintage doesn't have to be a 40 page forum thread on the 1962
3:47
Submariner reference. Vintage can just be a beautiful
3:51
object from a previous era. That you put on your wrist and
3:55
enjoy so deep breath there that reframe changed how I bought
4:00
watches it also changed how I searched for watches and it's
4:05
why we're starting this episode with her so let's.
4:09
Get into segment 2 and what vintage actually means.
4:12
OK, quick housekeeping. Again, let's define vintage
4:16
because the term gets thrown around carelessly and this is
4:19
not the vintage episode that you're going to get on vintage
4:23
forms. It's a completely different
4:25
take, again, as I try to promise you with most of the stuff that
4:27
we talked. So generally, again, when we
4:29
talk about this term, vintage, if it's roughly 30 years old or
4:33
so or older. We're going to call it vintage.
4:35
So as when I'm recording this, that's anything from the mid 90s
4:41
or earlier, which don't judge me on saying that the 90s is
4:46
vintage. OK, You can throw Neo in in
4:49
there if you want. But again, neo just means new.
4:51
So you're saying new vintage or new old?
4:55
Just follow me here. So we're going to talk about
4:57
vintage and neo vintage, but we're basically saying 30 years,
4:59
right? Some purists are going to draw
5:00
the line. They're going to say the courts
5:02
crisis. So they might say pre 1970s,
5:05
then you're firmly vintage 1970s through the 90s.
5:08
That's going to be neo vintage, which is kind of like as own
5:11
emerging collector category and it's really interesting space.
5:14
What about pre 1950s? Well, then you're in antique
5:17
territory, right? And the rules change again.
5:20
Other things that might, you know, imply this vintage term
5:24
most of the. Time is that the watch is no
5:26
longer in production, so it's a piece of frozen design.
5:30
So you might have a Submariner reference, right, that they just
5:33
discontinued or whatever it is and now is that vintage, right?
5:36
GMT Master 2, they just stopped making the Pepsi.
5:38
Is that a vintage now? The thing you're buying is not
5:42
just a watch, it's kind of the watch from a moment.
5:45
And so the moment I think is the value.
5:48
That's what you're really. Buying not just steel and the
5:51
crystal and a movement, you're buying a piece of 1964 or you're
5:56
buying. A piece.
5:58
From 1978, you're buying a piece of that era.
6:01
And that's kind of what makes vintage hard.
6:03
And that's what makes vintage, to me worth it.
6:06
So let's talk about my vintage collection.
6:08
And I use it in air quotes because my vintage collection is
6:10
not like the Oh my gosh, this guy has the most amazing vintage
6:14
collection ever. It's the vintage collection
6:16
that's important to me. OK.
6:18
So let me walk you. Through some of the vintage that
6:21
I own and it's not to flex again, my my vintage watches are
6:25
not flex watches by any means. They're just the ones that that
6:28
are important to me. And I'll get into the disasters
6:31
in a minute, but I'll give you concrete examples of what
6:33
vintage looks like. In a collection for me now
6:38
you've heard about the 1940s Yugoslavian Zenith, the 143-6 in
6:42
episode 3. If you haven't, go back and
6:44
listen to that one. I, I talk a little bit about
6:46
that watch as well and kind of why, why it was important to me.
6:49
It's the pilot's chronograph that my great uncle's, my great
6:53
uncle was tied to and specifically a the dial itself,
6:57
the one that had a very kind collector, helped me put this
7:01
back together. And it's the deepest vintage
7:04
piece I would say that I own. It's a late 1940s war era
7:08
Excelsior Park EP 4 caliber, has radium on the hands and it lives
7:11
in a vault. OK, But I also have this Rdath
7:14
ARDATH chronograph. It's a reference 300-1377.
7:19
It's a 35mm case. Ardath is one of those like
7:22
small Swiss brands from like the mid 20th century that almost
7:26
nobody talks about anymore. And they made dress watches and
7:28
they made dressy chronographs. And it was from this kind of
7:30
time only era watches for like this European market.
7:33
And they're often shared. A lot of them were shared
7:36
movement architectures from like all these other chronograph
7:39
specialists. And so they would just borrow
7:41
stuff and think about, think about now you have a bunch of
7:43
these smaller brands and Indies and micros and stuff, all
7:47
sharing movements, you've got salitas and stuff.
7:49
But then Fast forward 30 or 50 years, right?
7:51
How many of your? Watches that you have.
7:53
That are from Indies are going to be remembered, right,
7:56
Somebody might remember, Oh yeah, that was that brand or
7:58
this was this brand. So our Def is one of those
8:01
brands that just like nobody talks.
8:02
About right now when we talk about that, mine has this like
8:06
crazy. Texture to the dial, it has a
8:10
tachometer scale around the perimeter, has a sub register 6.
8:13
It has this like cream aged patina, but it actually
8:16
transitions from like cream to like green and it literally
8:20
looks like a gimlet. It kind of looks like the studio
8:24
underdog fears collaboration, but mine looks like it just
8:28
somebody dunked it in like green.
8:30
And I don't know if it's mold or it's what, but I just for
8:33
something, something about that watch makes me smile.
8:35
And so that watch itself is just kind of silly, right?
8:38
It's, it's perfectly imperfect. It's like 50% of the dial is it
8:42
was the is a completely different color.
8:44
And so this watch has had some life to it.
8:46
The hands are rusted. It's not a famous reference.
8:49
It's not on anyone's grail list. And I love it for that reason.
8:51
I I wear it because no one else even knows what that thing is.
8:55
I also have a 1940s era Omega reference 2279 chronograph.
8:59
It's a 35mm. It's a manual wind.
9:01
It's pre 321 movement. It's the pre before Omega had
9:06
the 321. So.
9:08
This to me is significant. And again, I'm not like the.
9:11
The. Deepest in, in vintage.
9:14
And so there will be other people who are just just into
9:17
Omega and know so much about Omega and I continue to learn
9:20
from those as folks as well on a regular basis.
9:22
So if I go through this and I say something that's incorrect,
9:24
correct me and I'll update the show notes or whatever.
9:27
But the the one that I have the 20 two 7935mm, the manual wind
9:32
pre so before 321 was was developed.
9:36
It means that the movement is from this era before Omega,
9:39
before they had, you know, designed and laid out.
9:43
And then I delivered the 321. Which is I think what powered
9:48
the original Speedmaster Moon watches and so.
9:51
The movement in mind is this Lemonnia based Omega caliber.
9:55
It's a 33.3. It's a column wheel chronograph
9:58
and it's kind of a direct mechanical ancestor to the 321.
10:03
And so you kind of hold this watch and then you're holding
10:07
the design DNA that 15 years later would go to the moon.
10:12
And it's these, you know, blued steel hands.
10:14
It's got long lugs, which makes it wear a little bit longer.
10:17
And I'm bigger than a 35mm. It looks great on leather.
10:20
It looks great on a NATO. It has honest patina to it.
10:23
And it's one of the my my more favorite things that I own.
10:27
And then I have this spa soft spot for this kind of like,
10:30
quirkiness. I like quirky Cartier.
10:33
What are you going to do? But they're the side that most
10:35
people don't, you know, think about.
10:38
Everyone knows the Tank. Everybody knows the Santos, the
10:41
big iconic Cartier shapes. They're wonderful.
10:44
And my wife actually owns a couple, and they're rightfully
10:48
celebrated. Cartier has this whole side of
10:51
the catalog of just, like, weird.
10:53
And I mean, weird isn't like quotations, italicies, bolded.
10:58
There's weird watches. The Roadster, which launched in
11:02
2001, was inspired by like a 1950s race car and has this
11:06
distinctive kind of cushion ish shaped case.
11:09
It kind of looks like nothing else in the lineup.
11:10
There's the Pasha, which is this circular, which for Cartier is
11:15
strange. Cartier having a circular.
11:16
Everybody else makes circular watches, but Cartier doesn't.
11:19
So the Pasha is a circular sports watch, and it's important
11:23
because. It's.
11:24
This version of Cartier that isn't normal, It's it's it's
11:28
normal for the rest of the world, but it is not normal for
11:31
Cartier. So like the Pasha C timer, for
11:33
example, you can get it in 40mm and I will throw my Cartier C
11:37
timer 40mm. That is a dive watch with a
11:40
rotating bezel and I'll throw it on a rubber strap and so or I'll
11:44
throw it on something ridiculous right.
11:45
The Pasha C timer in in essence is Cartiers dive watch before
11:49
the caliber came out in the calibre, the 40mm round case.
11:52
This unidirectional dive bezel has 100 meters of water
11:56
resistance. It's automatic and it has a
11:58
protective crown cap with this blue cabochon.
12:01
And again, you have a dive watch with the cabochon that screws on
12:04
and then it's attached by a chain.
12:06
It's it's, it's insane. Now Cartier's own, you know,
12:09
has, has their own bracelets and it has I've got it on rubber and
12:13
I have other straps for it as well.
12:14
It's just kind of silly. I'll throw it on an orange strap
12:15
just just because why not? Why not?
12:18
You only live once, so the sentence alone I get that some
12:21
people who are in the watch space and they're the nerds are
12:24
going to short circuit. Cartier is supposed to be Roman
12:26
numerals. It's supposed to be on leather.
12:28
It's not a sport diver. Don't put it on a How dare you
12:31
put it on a vulcanized strap. RTA discontinued the entire
12:35
posture line in like 2012 and then they brought it back in
12:37
2020. The original original sea timer
12:39
is kind of firmly, I think, in the the neo vintage collectible
12:43
zone now and again, nobody talking about them and that's
12:46
fine. I don't care.
12:47
I don't care if the, the watch that I have appreciates or
12:51
depreciates. I I don't care.
12:53
I like the watch And so I, I genuinely don't mind if people
12:57
are like, hey, that, that watch is horrible or whatever.
13:00
Why would you do that? Like that's because it, it makes
13:02
me enjoy. I just enjoy it's comfortable.
13:04
It's comfortable on the strap or whatever it is, right.
13:07
And so I think putting them on these aftermarket FKM rubber
13:10
straps, you know, you get this like crazy elastomer rubber.
13:13
You can find a serious sports watch like Tudor or Omega and
13:17
that's going to make kind of the the watch nerds heads explode.
13:20
And it's not because Cartier isn't supposed to be doing this
13:23
stuff. It's just it, you know, normally
13:25
you're not used to seeing these things.
13:27
And that's why I enjoy it. The Roadster is kind of the same
13:30
way for me now. I don't own a Roadster.
13:32
I've been close a couple of times to pulling the trigger on
13:34
one and all of a sudden they they re released it.
13:36
Now they've just kind of shot back up and I'm like, I missed
13:38
my window because now everybody's talking about them.
13:40
And then part of me doesn't want one now because other folks are
13:43
already talking about them. So the Cartier is, you know,
13:47
discontinued now brought back again, Wildly underrated.
13:50
I think the Cartier itself doesn't have to behave like
13:53
Cartier. Not everyone has to be.
13:55
And you can like some watches in a in a lineup and not like all
13:58
of them. You can like the brand and and
13:59
dislike or like some some models that they offer.
14:02
That's totally fine, right? You can like Rolex, for example,
14:05
and dislike certain models in their lineup or, you know, just
14:08
like their engagement in their purchasing product process or
14:11
whatever it is. So again, the Roadster was kind
14:15
of a similar watch, discontinued, underrated,
14:17
doesn't behave like typical Cartiers.
14:19
And I think, you know, there's these moments where these both
14:23
of these watches the the Roadster and also the Pasha.
14:26
They have this case. For giving you an opportunity to
14:30
buy a watch that you love rather than what the watch Internet has
14:34
said that this is the correct watch to buy.
14:37
Now, I think these for most folks are kind of the deeper,
14:41
more prestigious references. Are they the most the, the, the
14:45
most prestigious reference on planet Earth?
14:47
No, but they're ones that I enjoy and they have stories and
14:51
they feel a different slot in a collection than what people
14:55
might think about. You know, that's kind of think
14:57
what, what real vintage kind of looks like.
14:59
It's not a Hall of Fame. It's a personal archive of
15:02
things that you enjoy. So let's get into some other
15:05
options and watches that I think that that are in my Chrono 24
15:10
search history, but ones that I haven't pulled the trigger on
15:13
yet. And I think that's that's
15:14
interesting as well as ones that I'm sort of mulling around and
15:18
thinking about. And I kind of want to express
15:19
some of those to you. And you tell me like, dude,
15:21
you're way off base. Or like, yeah, I've kind of
15:22
thought about some of those as well.
15:23
So segment 4 is going to be kind of the deeper cuts.
15:26
I'm going to look at Piaget, I'm looking at Chopard, and I'm
15:29
going to look at like an obscure kind of gem.
15:31
So beyond what's actually on my wrist, let me tell you about
15:35
what I love to look at because the brands I could talked about
15:39
in the vintage space are like the Rolex Submariner, the Pat
15:41
Tech 3940 Omega Speedmaster, and those are great.
15:45
But the prices also reflect a lot of that attention.
15:48
Remember that the analogy that we had in regard to the soccer
15:51
game and the five year olds and and this cluster of people all
15:54
around and moving around. Well, that cluster, if you're
15:56
looking at it in the watch space, it's indicative of volume
15:59
and, and cost as well. And so a lot of people, if
16:02
they're all looking at the same thing you have, you have supply
16:04
and demand and these, these prices can kind of skyrocket.
16:08
And so again, one, I don't want the watches that bad.
16:11
And then two, I also don't want, I don't want a watch that
16:14
everyone wants. I want something that's a little
16:16
bit more unique and that's outside of kind of those spaces.
16:19
And so when I think about that, I also think about what where I
16:23
might find a deal or I might find a surprise or a watch that,
16:26
you know, hasn't been bid into the stratosphere, because I
16:29
think those are the brands I think the broader market has
16:32
just under loved. And so let's talk about Piaget,
16:34
vintage Piaget in general, especially kind of the dress
16:37
watches, the Polo from like the late 70s and the 80s.
16:40
And some of my, again, in my opinion, some of the most
16:43
beautifully made jewelry and jewelry specific watchmaking.
16:48
I think that we're going to find ultra thin movements, stone
16:50
dials. They were doing lapis and
16:52
malachite and Tiger's eye and Onyx way before other folks were
16:56
they had. And they still do have
16:57
integrated bracelets to kind of predate what most people would
17:00
consider the integrated bracelet.
17:02
And a lot of these can still be had for a couple of grand, which
17:06
is kind of like borderline absurd when you think about what
17:08
they actually are. Chopard And OK, I didn't spell
17:11
PAJPIAGET for my for my newbies. And then Chopard, it's CHOPARD.
17:18
Now, Piaget and Chopard are both really kind of jewelry brands
17:22
and then have become watchmakers.
17:24
And so I think a lot of folks when they think about Piaget,
17:27
they think about like jewelry and they think about Chopard and
17:29
they think about jewelry. And then they're also serious
17:32
watchmakers. So Chopard and again, the there
17:36
is this kind of, there is this vintage Luc line, there's the
17:42
there's a vintage chronographs that they have.
17:44
They have these. Older time only dress pieces and
17:47
I think Chopard doesn't get the love that it deserves in kind of
17:50
the secondary market and I think slowly that's changing when
17:53
people. Realize like, oh man, they have
17:55
beautiful watches. They have micro.
17:57
A lot of them have micro rotor movements.
18:00
And there are these just stunning pieces that I think
18:02
have just been completely overlooked.
18:03
And Luc, when you see that in the, the name of the, the
18:06
Chopard, that's like their highest end of their, their
18:10
watchmaking and they're just, they're just stunning.
18:13
I think if you want this sort of beautifully made Swiss vintage
18:17
piece without kind of paying the Swiss vintage hype prices, I
18:20
think Chopard is a deeply rewarding place to look.
18:23
Very similar to early Parmigiani when, when you know, before they
18:27
just sort of knocked it out of the park in the last, you know,
18:29
five years or so. Gerard Perrigo.
18:32
And Gerard is spelled Girard. And then Perrigo, they have a
18:36
hyphen, but you don't need to throw the hyphen in there.
18:38
It'll show up in your searches and stuff.
18:40
PERR e.g. AUX Perrigo X is silent, it's
18:46
French. It's one of the oldest
18:47
watchmaking houses in the world. And they they invented this
18:50
thing called the Three Bridges tour beyond.
18:52
They have unbelievable hortological credentials and yet
18:55
the vintage market kind of treats them like they're AB tier
18:58
brand and they're not AB tier brand to me.
19:02
Vintage, the Gerard Perrigo dress, watches and chronographs
19:06
from like the 50s and the 60s in the, in my opinion, some of the
19:08
most overlooked deals in the entire vintage space now.
19:11
Yet there's more, right? You can find Universal Geneva
19:14
and those are going to become much more expensive soon as
19:17
they've sort of revived the brand.
19:18
Now there's the Kutra as well. You talk about like it's LE
19:25
COULTRE before became visual occult, right, It was just the
19:30
culture, right, and you have Movado, yes, Movado.
19:33
This is like pre museum dial Movado and like the mall and all
19:38
that kind of stuff like the 40s and 50s.
19:40
Those those watches are exquisite.
19:41
You know, Everhard, you have Doxa just beyond, you know, and
19:44
beyond the sub. You have Hoyer as well, which
19:46
became tag and tag Hoyer. And so every one of these brands
19:50
can't has made this like they made absolutely world class
19:53
watches. And today I think you can find
19:56
them for less than what like a miss mid Swiss mid range, kind
20:00
of like Swiss watch would look like.
20:01
And so that's kind of the vintage of the gift.
20:03
I think you get with vintage. And there's a catch.
20:05
There's always a catch. And I think this next segment is
20:08
going to talk about what some of those traps are.
20:10
So I'm going to give you my segment 5.
20:12
I'm going to talk about the Gerard Perrigo story, also known
20:15
as the I bought a parts bin special.
20:17
So OK. Segment 5, The Gerard Perrigo
20:20
story Cautionary tale. A few years back I got a deal,
20:24
or what I thought was a deal on a pair pair, you know, when you
20:27
get rid of two of them to one sucker.
20:29
I thought it was a decent deal on Gerard Perrigo manually wound
20:33
watches. Of course, an Italian seller.
20:35
Lesson learned there as well, listed at a price that was, you
20:39
know, for the brand I thought was suspiciously low.
20:41
And then I did the math in my head and I was like vintage
20:43
Gerard Perrigo manual wine, Italian cellar.
20:47
This often means that the watch came out of like a deceased
20:49
estate type situation. Photos seemed fine, you know?
20:52
But again, I didn't know anything.
20:53
And I bought them and when they arrived there, they're gorgeous
20:56
for like 10 minutes. Because then the more I looked
20:59
at them, the more I started to kind of cross reference, like
21:01
the dials and the cases and the movements against catalog
21:04
references. Because once you have them, then
21:06
all of a sudden you're like, wait a minute.
21:08
So the more I started to realize.
21:09
What I'd actually bought, these were in kind of the language of
21:11
the hobbyists, they were parts bin specials.
21:14
And what that means is at some point in their lives, probably
21:17
during a service in the 70s or 80s, someone opened up these
21:20
watches, found something that was broken or worn out, and they
21:23
replaced it with whatever fit, not necessarily what was
21:26
correct, but what fit right, Get the watch in, put it on
21:29
somebody's wrist and then push it back up.
21:31
Or it was a watch that was completely reassembled by
21:33
somebody just to sell to, you know, some sucker on eBay.
21:37
I'm that sucker. I've always been that sucker.
21:39
So one of them had a movement that was period appropriate, but
21:44
not the original caliber for the case.
21:45
Another one had a. Service dial A refinished.
21:49
I believe it was even one of them was a replacement dial that
21:51
was put back on probably way later.
21:54
After service and there was a subtle differences in printing
21:56
than the original case backs and the bodies.
22:00
They seemed genuine at first, but I don't know if they were
22:03
and the hands on one of them looked.
22:05
Maybe just a slight? Slightly a little bit off On
22:09
paper, both of these watches are technically vintage Gerard
22:13
Perrigo. In reality, both of them are
22:16
Franken watches. Franken watches, Frankenstein
22:20
monsters are. They live in the watch world.
22:23
They live in the vintage watch world.
22:24
They are cobbled together over decades of repairs by just
22:27
people trying to keep things running.
22:29
Other times they are literal pieces that someone has put.
22:32
Together to sell to a dude on eBay.
22:35
Again, that dude on eBay is me. Keep me away from eBay.
22:39
Now here's what I want to take from.
22:41
This. Did I get scammed?
22:43
Not really the seller. Maybe they knew, maybe they
22:46
didn't, who knows. I try to give people the benefit
22:49
of the doubt. I'm sure they do.
22:51
These watches have been possibly passed down for generations,
22:55
right? Maybe somebody had sections of
22:58
those watches that were living in different watches.
23:00
And so by the. Time I bought them these parts
23:01
have been reality is just what they were.
23:03
The seller listed them as vintage Gerard Perrigo.
23:06
He didn't say that these were period correct right original.
23:09
He didn't see any that kind of stuff.
23:10
He just said vintage Gerard Perrigo and technically they are
23:14
vintage Gerard Perrigo, just not in the sway that serious
23:18
collectors. Mean them to be.
23:21
And so here's the punchline. This is going to sound so
23:23
strange. I select those watches.
23:26
I think they're beautiful. They tell time and they're a
23:28
piece of history. And I think I paid for what I
23:32
got, an honest price. Did I pay for a correct watch
23:37
for that price? No, I paid parts bin prices for
23:40
what I got, which was a parts bin watch at that time.
23:43
And so the universe, I think was kind of kind to me there.
23:47
But what I want you to learn from, especially from my
23:50
mistake, is that because if I had paid a period correct watch
23:53
price for what turned out to be a parts bin special.
23:57
That would have hurt a lot and so some people pay 5 figures or
24:01
six figures for watches. That end up.
24:03
Becoming Frankenstein watches and Franken Franken watches.
24:07
And so this is my cautionary tale, which is going to kind of
24:10
bring us to kind of the the next section, but again, as a kind of
24:13
a reminder. The watches themselves are still
24:17
time telling devices and so if you're not someone that's going
24:20
to go and, you know, try to flip the watch and make a profit or
24:23
try to find the next speculative watch.
24:25
And again, remember, there's a difference between these the the
24:28
hobbyists that I think. We are which are collectors and
24:30
enthusiasts, which is versus speculators and finding a watch
24:34
that you know has possibly the wrong hands on it or whatever.
24:37
But it makes you happy. Then you rock it, man.
24:40
OK, so segment 6 is going to be this sort of practical
24:43
checklist. OK, so here's the actual
24:46
practical guide. I think for me, buying vintage,
24:49
the list of things that you check before you buy.
24:52
And again, lessons learned from me, I'll go quickly.
24:55
But if you want to write these down or pull over, just listen
24:57
to this more or just bookmark kind of this episode for later
25:00
on. I think that's where the value
25:01
is going to kind of compound. So one, if you have the time and
25:05
you have the if, if you're going to be spending a lot of money,
25:07
make sure that the dial is going to match the reference.
25:09
It's pretty straightforward, but every vintage reference has a
25:12
set of dial variations that are coming from the factory.
25:15
So there's books that know this. If you have to get the books, if
25:19
you're spending a lot of money, then go get the books from
25:21
Omega. There's Omega Saga for vintage
25:24
Rolex. There's like Dallian has to the
25:26
best of time for Hoyer. You can look at anything from
25:29
like Jeff Stein and the the dial, the printing, the
25:33
typeface, the index style has to match what was made for that
25:38
period. If the dial is almost right, but
25:40
not quite, it's a service dial or it's a redial.
25:42
And just just, if you're going to spend that much money, just
25:44
walk away. I'll also say that if you're
25:48
getting a watch and it's pretty beat up and you have the option
25:50
to have it redialed and it's not something that is significant to
25:54
you, you can redial it. I don't redial my watches.
25:57
I don't have them redone. I typically tell them if they're
25:59
getting a service, don't touch the hands, don't touch the dial,
26:02
don't touch the date wheel. If it's running and working fine
26:05
and don't, don't other than, you know, just running a brush to
26:08
dust it or blowing some air on it, that's fine.
26:10
But other than that, I don't, I don't want things, I don't want
26:13
these cleaned up or I really don't want them reprinted and
26:15
all that kind of stuff. Leave the leave the life on the
26:17
on the watch now to make sure that you match the case.
26:21
To the reference. The lug shape, the case profile,
26:24
the crown, the case backing, and the markings.
26:26
There's these standard standardizations for production
26:30
runs. And that's hard if you don't
26:31
have the watch in your hand and you don't have like an original
26:33
1 to hold it next to the other one.
26:35
But if the case looks like a different generation or even the
26:38
dial, somebody swapped something and again, you can walk three,
26:43
confirm the movement is actually correct for the reference.
26:46
The reference number on the case should correspond very
26:48
specifically to a caliber. So like if a 1955 chronograph
26:52
reference that somebody's supposed to have is a value 72
26:55
inside, it has a value has a Lemonia 1873 in there, somebody
26:59
swapped a movement. The watch may run beautifully.
27:02
It may actually even run better. It's a better movement.
27:05
Again, debatable, but that's my position.
27:07
But the watch reference number will tell you that again, you
27:11
can walk or you can you can keep the watch.
27:12
Just know what you're getting into for check if the case has
27:16
been over polished. This happens a lot with Rolex
27:18
watches. You can see this pretty pretty
27:21
easily if you look at the side profile of like a Submariner for
27:23
example, and you notice that the spring bar is actually pushing
27:27
through the side of the case and you they hold it sideways and
27:29
you can see the tip of that spring bar.
27:30
It's, it's over polished to the point where you can, you can
27:34
wear the watch and it's fine. There's nothing's wrong with the
27:36
watch. It's just been, they've taken so
27:37
much material away from the case of the spring where is actually
27:40
pushing through the spring bar holes that you have on the side
27:42
of the case. Now there's ways to cheat that.
27:45
You can take your spring bar and you can file them down to
27:47
shorten up your spring bars and then they'll fit back in there
27:49
and then they're not poking out. So you can, you can fiddle with
27:52
those images as well, but just be aware that that kind of stuff
27:54
can happen also. So over polishing is a problem.
27:57
Vintage cases were kind of originally finished with like
28:00
crisp lines and sharp edges and they had very distinct bevels
28:04
and chamfers. And they have these defined
28:06
transitions between brushing and polishing.
28:09
And so when you get this situation where you have decades
28:12
of where you'll find that someone will have polished or
28:15
cleaned up a case and eventually those those edges look rounded.
28:19
And so originals don't look that way.
28:21
They have a defined a line. And so a correctly preserved
28:25
case, for example, it's, it's worth usually a substantial
28:28
premium over polished one. That's why people, when they get
28:31
watches like like me for example, I especially like
28:34
vintage ones or Neo vintage. I don't Polish the case.
28:37
I'm going to put scratches on them anyways and so I don't mind
28:39
them being beat up. I actually prefer them to look
28:41
like they've had a life. I don't want to watch it looks
28:43
brand new. I'll talk about that some other
28:46
time. There's there's a whole thing
28:47
about steel and hardening and all that kind of stuff that goes
28:49
down another rabbit hole for me, but I'll stick to this part.
28:51
SO5, make sure that you understand your patina.
28:54
Honest patina is welcome. Suspicious patina is not.
28:57
So let's let's talk about honest patina.
28:59
It's what happens when a watch ages naturally loom turns from
29:02
kind of this white to a cream to almost like brown and steel will
29:07
develop micro scratches and kind of the softer kind of satin look
29:11
to it. Dials become the candy at times
29:13
become tropical, which is this sort of fading from black to
29:17
almost chocolate brown from sun exposure.
29:19
And I think it's beautiful. It shows history.
29:21
Some people hate it. But there's also fake patina,
29:23
which is artificially aged loom and they have these artificial
29:27
tones and you'll see artificial tropical effects on dials as
29:30
well. And they can be done with
29:32
chemicals or heat. And there's a couple of towels.
29:35
It's either they're usually too even too consistent, too
29:38
perfect. Real patina is pretty messy.
29:40
Fake patina is kind of weirdly too clean, if that makes any
29:44
sense. My R death, for example, you
29:47
there's no way to fake that patina because it's literally it
29:50
cuts the dial at sort of almost like a 50% but cut from you know
29:56
maybe like a two or three o'clock down to like 7:00.
29:59
It's like 1 section like you dunked it just at an angle into
30:02
like some green jello or something right That so it's
30:05
like goes from like cream to like almost like a pale green.
30:08
If you can get a service history, that's amazing.
30:10
Most of them you won't most of them are just going to be watch
30:12
only but a watch that's been opened up and serviced regularly
30:15
is a watch that's been cared for.
30:17
And so if a seller can produce service papers, even if they're
30:20
partial, that's usually kind of a green flag, more green light.
30:25
If a seller has no idea when the watch was serviced, factor in
30:27
like 4 to $800.00 for a service before you even commit to that
30:31
watch, depending on the complexity, the budget and
30:33
etcetera. Next 7 buy from people, not
30:37
listings. This is huge.
30:38
And this is going to be the one that you should really, and I
30:40
should have started with this one, right by the seller, not
30:42
the watch, right? You buy the, the, the seller,
30:45
you buy the person you have a relationship with them.
30:48
There's experts in this field. So you can go and say, hey,
30:50
expert, you don't know me, but let me introduce myself.
30:53
This is what I'm looking for and you're in this space.
30:56
Can you help me find this reference or this model or
30:58
whatever? And then you send them on that
31:01
that hunt. And then they're the ones that
31:03
have the reputation on the line, right.
31:05
And so if they've been doing this a long time, their goal is
31:07
to one hopefully have a, a new customer and a a client for
31:11
forever and a reference, meaning that when they find you this
31:14
watch, they want you to be happy with this watch.
31:16
The reputation is behind that watch.
31:18
Now you're going to pay a little bit more for that, but you're
31:19
also, you're also ensuring that you're going to get a good
31:23
product. And so we talked about, again,
31:25
buying from people and not from listings.
31:28
This is one way to do it. A listing on eBay from a seller
31:30
with no feedback is a different animal than getting a listing
31:33
from a known dealer with 20 years of reputation, right?
31:36
So get to know some dealers, find out which ones are.
31:40
And again, with the online space, you can build
31:42
relationships pretty quickly. You can shoot a message, a phone
31:44
call and just just send them on the hunt, right?
31:46
The deals can come to people who are in those conversations.
31:50
And so a vintage watch dealer is going to have more access to
31:52
vintage watch forums. They're going to be looking on a
31:55
regular basis. Also, someone that's willing to
31:58
part ways with a vintage watch is probably going to go and be
32:01
looking for someone who's in that space to sell it or consign
32:04
to them. So be aware of that and then if
32:05
you can, try to hold it before you buy it.
32:10
Now, vintage watch shows come up, watch meetups come up, local
32:13
ADS have vintage trays. Some auctions have previews.
32:17
You can hold the watch, you can look at it under a loop.
32:19
You can feel the weight. Half a vintage authentication is
32:23
kind of intuition, and intuition only develops by handling
32:27
things. Now, if you're not that person,
32:29
you're not that comfortable. And I still, for me, don't feel
32:31
that comfortable. So I send other people to do
32:33
that stuff. I send professionals #9 when in
32:36
doubt, and this is going to be hard, when in doubt, you walk
32:40
away. Watch might be there in the next
32:42
month or another one will. There is no scarcity emergency
32:46
in the vintage world that justifies a panic buy.
32:50
There's no, OK, this is the drop and then tomorrow is gone.
32:53
Well, if that's the case, then, you know, we need to be able to
32:56
feel comfortable going. OK, well, I didn't get enough
32:58
time to do my due diligence. And so the loss here is going to
33:01
be losing the opportunity to gamble.
33:03
And I I don't gamble. And so the only real loss kind
33:07
of in vintage is the loss of paying, you know, too much or
33:10
something that's not what you thought it was.
33:12
And so be happy that that watch kind of walked away.
33:14
The watch you didn't buy is never going to be a loss for
33:17
you. 10 again. I'm going to circle back to this
33:20
as well. Trust the dealers that are worth
33:24
trusting. If you don't know where to
33:26
start, go to Eric Wind, go to Roy and Sasha Davidoff if you go
33:30
to like watch these, Justin Brockus, if you go to Theo and
33:36
Harris, for example. On the kind of the more
33:38
accessible side, you can go to some of the bigger auction
33:42
houses. Now there's an asterisk with
33:44
some of the auction houses because some of those prices
33:46
reflect auctions and they're not necessarily market prices.
33:49
So you have to be real careful there as well.
33:51
And then there's also independent dealers that are out
33:53
in the space. So just find ones that
33:54
specialize in what you love. Now, segment 7 is going to be
33:59
vintage is I think fundamentally a love story.
34:01
So here's the thing I want to leave you with on vintage.
34:04
A lot of the advice that I just gave you, it's more, it's more
34:08
risk management. And I think it is.
34:11
You're trying to get, you're trying to avoid getting burned,
34:15
trying to make sure that what you're getting is what you paid
34:19
for. And you're trying to be smart.
34:21
But underneath all of it have to remind you that vintage
34:25
fundamentally is a love story. So if you buy something that you
34:29
like, don't let other people tell you that it's not a good
34:33
watch, that it's not. Well, sure, yeah, maybe it's not
34:35
what you think it is or what it should be for you.
34:38
But for me, it's something that I enjoy wearing.
34:40
So remember, you're buying an object that was made before you
34:44
were born probably, or near enough that, you know, some of
34:49
this stuff doesn't matter. Just I specifically want to
34:52
remind folks that somebody designed this, somebody
34:55
assembled it, somebody sold it, somebody's grandfather might
34:58
have worn it or worn parts of that watch.
35:01
This watch has moved through hands through decades, through
35:05
events that you never knew about, and now that piece of
35:10
history is sitting on your wrist.
35:11
And I think that's crazy, that kind of magic, especially in
35:16
vintage when you can find a good example of something.
35:19
There are very few things in our consumer lives that live on like
35:22
that. And we know this because we live
35:24
in a very throwaway society and watches, we typically do not
35:29
throw away. They may get passed down, they
35:31
may get donated, even broken ones, people seem to just leave
35:34
in a, in a, in a drawer, right? It's not something that you
35:37
throw away for some reason because you're like, well, maybe
35:39
somebody could fix it. And so again, the magic of that
35:43
lives on. And my wife knew that.
35:46
She knows that now in her bones, I think well before I ever did.
35:51
She didn't think of it that way. She just liked thin gold
35:56
watches. But what was she she was doing
35:59
was honoring objects that had stories and she was wearing
36:02
them. She's letting these watches be a
36:04
part of her life, and she wasn't treating them like museum
36:06
pieces. She's not treating them like
36:08
investments. She's not treating them like
36:10
projects. She just wears watches, and I
36:13
think that's the lesson. Vintage is not a category to
36:16
master. It's a relationship to time
36:19
itself. And the more I think you let
36:21
yourself fall into that without trying to win at it, I think the
36:25
more that vintage is going to give back to you.
36:28
OK, so now segment 8, what's going to happen next?
36:31
Next episode, I want to do something that we haven't done
36:34
yet. I want to talk about the
36:36
practical side of being a collector, how to live with the
36:39
collection, storage service, insurance after a break in or
36:44
insurance in general. What happens to, well, just some
36:48
experiences that I have with that.
36:49
And again, I'm not, I'm not perfect watch winders, whether
36:53
you're pro or anti watch winders, whether you think that
36:55
they're necessary or a waste of time and how to wear maybe
36:58
vintage in a humid climate without destroying it, how to
37:01
travel with watches. And then also I'm going to try
37:03
to, if I can sneak it in there, how to set a watch budget that
37:06
doesn't ruin your life or your relationships or your children's
37:09
college fund. So I would say, I wouldn't say
37:12
boring stuff. I'll say the grown up stuff.
37:14
I think some of us when we get past the point of collecting,
37:16
then we start to look at straps and we get past straps without
37:19
thinking about what are the watch boxes look like?
37:21
So stuff I think that nobody really teaches new collectors
37:24
and that candidly I kind of wish somebody had taught me 10 years
37:27
ago that's going to be coming up.
37:29
So you thinking about that and then again, that's episode 6 of
37:33
what's on your rese day in this episode.
37:35
If it helped you in any way, if you learn something about
37:38
vintage that you didn't know or if it made you reconsider a
37:41
watch that you've been on the fence about, you know, do me a
37:43
favor. Find me online, tell me about
37:45
it. Send me a picture of your
37:46
vintage piece, your grail piece, the weird watch that you
37:48
inherited from your uncle that you don't know anything about.
37:51
I love these stories. I guarantee you I won't know
37:53
anything about the watch either, but at least we can share the
37:55
story. I read all of them, every single
37:57
one of them. And to my wife, thank you.
38:00
Thank you for opening the door to these small omegas, for
38:04
thinking that watches are jewelry, or sometimes reminding
38:10
me that I forget that they were supposed to be beautiful just
38:13
for their own sake. I love you.
38:15
I'm watch offski. Take care of yourselves and wear
38:17
something good. I saw that vintage shine on the
38:36
dim lit screen. Seller had the Chrome and the
38:39
price to clean. 0 sales. No shame.
38:42
Still I took the bait, sent my cash that night.
38:46
Then I sealed my fate when it landed on my palm.
38:51
Something fell off fast. The second I unwrapped it, I
38:54
knew it wouldn't last. Frankie.
38:56
Watch Frankie. Watch You Saw me parts alive my
39:02
eyes and the case was from another watch Frank can watch.
39:13
Frank can watch. I want my bad luck home.
39:18
Standing the moon. As a fit like fake.
39:25
Teeth. The crown was looking cold.
39:28
Scratches told a story that the listing didn't show.
39:31
I wounded once. They coughed and quit like a car
39:34
with no spark. Then I heard that grainy grit
39:37
grinding in the dark. And then I checked the.
39:41
Photos master line by line he mixed up.
39:44
Every promise. He called that thing my Frankie
39:49
watch. Frankie watch.
39:51
He sold me parts. Live.
39:55
Dial not right him so wrong and the case was from another Watch
40:02
Frankie watch Frankie watch I want my bad luck holes and.
40:25
I. Wrote him back.
40:32
He typed his describe. What a joke, what a scam, what a
40:36
beautiful lie. I got a little museum or
40:39
somebody else describe one man's broken bundle with my money in
40:43
the rap. You can't watch.
40:50
Frank can't watch You saw me parts lifestyle not right, hands
40:58
are wrong, and the case was from another watch.
41:02
Frank can't watch. Frank can't watch.
41:06
I'll never buy that tone.