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Rebuilding the third segment of I-696 begins soon · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:11
  Jeff Cranson: Today I'm going to be talking about one of the major projects coming up in this construction season.
• 0:21
  Jeff Cranson: This one will extend through 2027, and that's rebuilding the final segment of I-696, a major freeway that runs across Oakland and Macomb counties, north of the city of Detroit, and carries a heck of a lot of traffic, some of the biggest traffic volumes of any roads in the state.
• 0:39
  Jeff Cranson: As a matter of fact, Brian Travis, the project manager, spoke with me about what he expects to go on during construction and about the public involvement that's gone on leading up to this, and also some interesting history to the freeway and the freeway's original concept and how it was built in three different segments, with the central segment being delayed for lots of various reasons and some other interesting things.
• 1:06
  Jeff Cranson: So I hope you enjoy the conversation.
• 1:08
  Jeff Cranson: Okay, again I'm with Brian Travis, who is already finishing up a major project, the I-96 flex route in Oakland County, and as he sees that to fruition, he's about to jump into another big one, which is the final segment of rebuilding 696, major thoroughfare through Oakland and Macomb counties.
• 1:28
  Jeff Cranson: Heavy traffic, one of the heaviest volume routes in the state and it comes with inconvenience.
• 1:35
  Jeff Cranson: As always, there's some short-term pain for what we hope is long-term gain, which will be a much smoother road where concrete chunks aren't flying up anymore and people's commutes will be reliable, which is what we all hope for.
• 1:50
  Jeff Cranson: So, Brian, thanks for taking time to be here.
• 1:53
  Brian Travis: Absolutely yeah.
• 1:53
  Brian Travis: Thanks for having me, Jeff.
• 1:55
  Jeff Cranson: So let's talk a little bit.
• 1:57
  Jeff Cranson: I want to get into some history.
• 1:58
  Jeff Cranson: You and I were both kind of fascinated by what we learned about 696 and its origins.
• 2:03
  Jeff Cranson: Kind of fascinated by what we learned about 696 and its origins.
• 2:06
  Jeff Cranson: But before we get into that, could you talk about the project overall, the various phases and what's coming next in 2025 through 2027?
• 2:16
  Brian Travis: Sure, yeah.
• 2:16
  Brian Travis: So I mean we are, as everyone knows, just kind of finishing up the segment there to the west from I-275 to Losser.
• 2:22
  Brian Travis: We've been working on that for the past two seasons and the next step is to move to the east from Lahser to Dequinder Road.
• 2:30
  Brian Travis: That is sort of the last segment of the whole corridor of I-696 that needs attention.
• 2:36
  Brian Travis: That's a pavement from the late 80s.
• 2:39
  Brian Travis: So, although it's not as quite in dire condition as you know, this last segment that we're reconstructing, it's time to do it.
• 2:47
  Brian Travis: So we will be starting here in March 1st actually.
• 2:51
  Brian Travis: So about a month and a half away from now.
• 2:52
  Brian Travis: We will detour eastbound I-696.
• 2:57
  Brian Travis: Traffic will be detoured south on M-10, the Lodge Freeway to the Davison M-8, back to I-75, northbound to 696.
• 3:08
  Brian Travis: So we'll be fully reconstructing that pavement between Lahser Road and I-75.
• 3:15
  Brian Travis: From I-75 to Dequindre we're going to patch that concrete pavement that's a bit newer, that was constructed, I believe, in 1999.
• 3:21
  Brian Travis: And this will happen over a three-year period.
• 3:24
  Brian Travis: So the detour route is two continuous seasons that will conclude at the end of 2026.
• 3:31
  Brian Travis: And then we'll finish that last season in 2027, working on that stretch from Lahser to the Dequindre, patching the pavement there.
• 3:39
  Brian Travis: There's also a lot of bridge work on this corridor.
• 3:42
  Brian Travis: There's about 60 bridges that we're touching, doing a lot of extensive rehab on those.
• 3:47
  Brian Travis: Those will happen over all three seasons.
• 3:49
  Brian Travis: We're also reconstructing one of the tunnel bridges, or the plaza bridges.
• 3:54
  Brian Travis: That is, the Church Street Plaza, which we call it carries Church Street.
• 4:00
  Brian Travis: This is an oak park.
• 4:01
  Brian Travis: A lot of people driving on the freeway probably know these as the tunnels.
• 4:05
  Brian Travis: They have the lights in them.
• 4:06
  Brian Travis: So that's a very, very major bridge for us that that will take all three seasons to reconstruct we should talk as we talk about the history.
• 4:14
  Jeff Cranson: We should talk later about how those came to be and why there are plazas, which is a little bit unique to most of michigan's freeways.
• 4:21
  Jeff Cranson: But first I was hoping you'd talk a little bit about the outreach and public engagement that goes on for a project like this that touches so many cities along the corridor, and how difficult it is in modern times with such a fractured media environment.
• 4:38
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, in the olden days you put a legal ad in the free press and the Detroit News and everybody knew what was going on and they had plenty of heads up.
• 4:48
  Jeff Cranson: But now there's just no way to target everybody and no matter what you do, there are people that might not hear about it until the project actually starts.
• 4:55
  Jeff Cranson: So could you talk about the challenges of public engagement?
• 4:59
  Brian Travis: Sure, this project has been in design for a few years now and, like you say, there's a hundred different ways to get news these days traditional, tv, newspaper or social media.
• 5:10
  Brian Travis: Right, if it's not capturing your attention in a matter of a few seconds, people aren't paying attention to it.
• 5:15
  Brian Travis: So we've issued press releases, we've had public meetings, we've had graphics out there, but it's really difficult to, I think, grab especially motorists' attention when something is two or three years away.
• 5:29
  Brian Travis: We will hold another public meeting next month to try to, you know, alert everybody that, hey, this is coming, but it is challenging and it's not something that we take lightly.
• 5:41
  Brian Travis: We coordinate very, very closely with all the local communities that we take lightly.
• 5:45
  Brian Travis: We coordinate very, very closely with all the local communities throughout this process.
• 5:47
  Brian Travis: They have input on the design, they voice their concerns with projects that they have going on or things with, you know, emergency response or access or pedestrians.
• 5:56
  Brian Travis: So we take all of that into consideration.
• 5:59
  Brian Travis: So all of these local communities, the governments, they're aware of the project that's coming.
• 6:03
  Brian Travis: I think it's the citizens, the commuters that aren't always in tune with.
• 6:08
  Brian Travis: You know, traffic's going to be detoured for two seasons, so the word is starting to get out now, and that's why we're trying to really, you know, get as much accurate information as we can to the public as we can to the public.
• 6:27
  Jeff Cranson: Well, I think one of the frustrations for the people in the department and for you as a project manager are that you don't really have any means of making people use the official detours, and so you know people are going to find their own way in a lot of cases, and that might put them on local streets and have an effect on the local grid.
• 6:43
  Jeff Cranson: How do you talk about that when local officials say, hey, they're going to clog up my streets because you closed down the freeway?
• 6:51
  Brian Travis: Yeah, again, we do the best we can.
• 6:53
  Brian Travis: We have a posted detour.
• 6:54
  Brian Travis: We typically post detours freeway to freeway.
• 6:57
  Brian Travis: We know in this case a lot of people probably won't follow that posted detour.
• 7:02
  Brian Travis: Maybe some trucks will or people from out of town.
• 7:05
  Brian Travis: But people are going to use 8 mile, 10 mile, 12 mile, whatever route is most convenient for them, and we can't completely shut down all the construction that's happening in the area for the next two years.
• 7:16
  Brian Travis: We can't plan for every single scenario.
• 7:20
  Brian Travis: So you know, we do the best we can to get the word out.
• 7:24
  Brian Travis: We do the best we can with trying to adjust signal timings, trying to coordinate projects.
• 7:29
  Brian Travis: But you know certain communities have certain money that's allocated that has to be spent in a certain year.
• 7:36
  Brian Travis: So you again can't control every project and every schedule that's going on around town.
• 7:42
  Brian Travis: But we do the best we can to mitigate inconveniences, congestion, whatever the case may be with, you know, signal timings or trying to encourage traffic to use certain routes whenever we can.
• 7:57
  Jeff Cranson: I think the history of this is interesting.
• 7:59
  Jeff Cranson: I know you were looking into it, as was I.
• 8:01
  Jeff Cranson: I just assumed it was a newer concept overall relative to some of the other interstates from the original 1950s, you know Eisenhower era interstate system.
• 8:11
  Jeff Cranson: So I-75, i-94, i-69, a little bit later than those, but as it turns out, 696, which I think one of the reasons I thought it was newer is because it's a three number shield instead of the traditional two numbers.
• 8:26
  Jeff Cranson: It was supposed to be I-98.
• 8:29
  Jeff Cranson: And, for whatever reason, the Federal Highway Administration rejected that, but it was in some original plans and yet the three segments took a long, long time to build.
• 8:41
  Jeff Cranson: What did you find most interesting as you looked into that background?
• 8:44
  Brian Travis: Yeah, it is very interesting.
• 8:46
  Brian Travis: So this whole corridor it's about 28 miles and it goes from I-275 to I-94.
• 8:52
  Brian Travis: And it was built in three separate segments.
• 8:54
  Brian Travis: So actually the first segment built was the west segment from I-275 to M-10.
• 9:00
  Brian Travis: And that was finished, I believe, in 1964.
• 9:04
  Brian Travis: 275 to M10.
• 9:05
  Brian Travis: And that was finished, I believe, in 1964.
• 9:06
  Brian Travis: And so for a handful of years if you're coming from the West you're forced off at the Lodge Freeway, you go downtown or wherever your destination is.
• 9:12
  Brian Travis: And the rest of 696, actually the eastern portion from I-75 to I-94, was constructed second.
• 9:20
  Brian Travis: That was completed in 1979.
• 9:23
  Brian Travis: And that middle piece from M10 to I-75 kind of sat in controversy for years.
• 9:30
  Brian Travis: I believe it was, you know, discussed right in the beginning with the rest of these, the corridor, the other two segments.
• 9:37
  Brian Travis: But because it intersected some important communities, you know I think it touches eight or nine different cities through the corridor.
• 9:46
  Brian Travis: You know, if you look at the layout of that middle segment it drops down, it's got curves, it's avoiding certain certain communities.
• 9:56
  Brian Travis: You know, downtown Royal Oak has to avoid, it had to avoid the Detroit Zoo.
• 10:01
  Brian Travis: It goes through Oak Park which has a large Orthodox Jewish community.
• 10:05
  Brian Travis: There was a lot of discussions with that community about how to construct a freeway but also maintain pedestrian access for them, and that's the reason for those three plaza bridges.
• 10:17
  Brian Travis: So a lot of unique considerations went into that middle segment.
• 10:21
  Brian Travis: Considerations went into that middle segment.
• 10:25
  Brian Travis: In fact I think, Jeff, we read the same thing that the governor at the time, George Romney, locked a group of decision makers in a room until they could agree on a way forward with this segment.
• 10:33
  Brian Travis: So all said and done I think it was talked about for 20 years or so.
• 10:40
  Brian Travis: I think it was finally completed in 1989.
• 10:43
  Brian Travis: So, yeah, interesting history.
• 10:44
  Brian Travis: So this is the newest segment but, like I said, it's at this point 36 years old.
• 10:50
  Brian Travis: It's time to address it.
• 10:52
  Jeff Cranson: Well, and it's going to last a good long time because you're doing for the most part, you're doing a major rebuild.
• 10:58
  Jeff Cranson: I think you pointed out earlier that some of this doesn't have to be completely rebuilt, but a lot of it is, and it's going to give you a long shelf life.
• 11:07
  Jeff Cranson: Now, on the new pavement, Absolutely yeah.
• 11:10
  Brian Travis: So it's again not as in dire condition as the other two segments were when we built them, but this again is going to give us a new pavement.
• 11:19
  Brian Travis: It's going to improve safety and reliability.
• 11:21
  Brian Travis: It's going to give us a new pavement.
• 11:22
  Brian Travis: It's going to improve safety and reliability.
• 11:24
  Brian Travis: And the reason behind reconstructing the ZL3 bridge that's the plaza bridge.
• 11:29
  Brian Travis: The number designation is ZL3.
• 11:31
  Brian Travis: That's the bridge that has the water leaking through it.
• 11:35
  Brian Travis: We've got some icicles that form in the wintertime.
• 11:37
  Brian Travis: It's a safety hazard.
• 11:38
  Brian Travis: The new design of that bridge is going to eliminate that problem.
• 11:42
  Brian Travis: So again, when it's all said and done, it's going to be a much safer, much smoother corridor.
• 11:54
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I think that addressing that specifically those leaks at the plaza, make a lot of sense and that is very interesting history what the department did at the time to accommodate the community and the people that basically walked to synagogue.
• 12:03
  Jeff Cranson: I think that showed a lot of sensitivity and that's really interesting.
• 12:06
  Jeff Cranson: But I sure wish there was a recording of Governor Romney in the room with those local officials forcing them to get an agreement on the route.
• 12:16
  Jeff Cranson: It would be fascinating to listen to now.
• 12:18
  Jeff Cranson: Totally agree, we'll be right back, stay tuned.
• 12:27
  Brian Travis: Totally agree.
• 12:27
  Brian Travis: We'll be right back.
• 12:28
  Brian Travis: Stay tuned, know before you go.
• 12:28
  Brian Travis: Head on over to MiDrive to check out the latest on road construction and possible delays along your route.
• 12:47
  Jeff Cranson: For a detailed map head over.
• 12:48
  Jeff Cranson: Doing that 96 project was huge.
• 12:50
  Jeff Cranson: I mean it's got to be the biggest thing you've been involved in as a PM.
• 12:53
  Jeff Cranson: I would think Could you talk a little bit about what you think you learned along the way?
• 12:57
  Jeff Cranson: That'll be a benefit to you as you manage this one.
• 13:00
  Brian Travis: Yeah, I've had the honor of working on the 96 Flex Route project.
• 13:04
  Brian Travis: I was on the eastern reconstruction of I-696 in Macomb County a few years back, so definitely have learned a lot about how to manage a schedule this large and what it takes to complete a job of this size.
• 13:19
  Brian Travis: You know these are huge jobs.
• 13:20
  Brian Travis: It does require a lot of people, a lot of effort.
• 13:23
  Brian Travis: Size these are huge jobs.
• 13:25
  Brian Travis: It does require a lot of people, a lot of effort.
• 13:27
  Brian Travis: It requires a contractor that's able to deliver a quality project and work day in and day out to lay down material, produce concrete, get trucks in and out of the corridor and doing it safely.
• 13:38
  Brian Travis: Safety is probably the biggest thing that we've learned throughout the corridor is we still have to build these freeways while also having traffic right adjacent to us, two-way traffic or traffic on the bridges.
• 13:54
  Brian Travis: Whatever the scenario is, there's always incidents that happen, that happen.
• 13:59
  Brian Travis: There's coordination that we have to have with emergency response personnel to get you know, fire trucks in police cars, ambulances in to respond to incidents, and so I kind of want to touch on this particular project we get.
• 14:15
  Brian Travis: The question is you know, why are we detouring eastbound?
• 14:18
  Brian Travis: Why don't we have traffic maintained on one side of the freeway, like the last two jobs that we did, and it really does come down to safety.
• 14:26
  Brian Travis: This section of freeway is what we call a depressed section of freeway.
• 14:30
  Brian Travis: We've got the large, like 25-foot tall, retaining walls on both sides and to maintain two lanes each direction on one side of the road.
• 14:40
  Brian Travis: You know you're taking away shoulders.
• 14:43
  Brian Travis: You have very limited room as it is there.
• 14:46
  Brian Travis: So to have something happen on the freeway a fire, an incident very, very difficult to get responders in there.
• 14:53
  Brian Travis: In fact, between M-10 and I-75, there is a restriction for any explosive material or flammable material.
• 15:03
  Brian Travis: You can't be transported on that route.
• 15:05
  Brian Travis: Just for that reason You're in the depressed section of freeway.
• 15:08
  Brian Travis: So it really comes down to safety.
• 15:10
  Brian Travis: Also, schedule right.
• 15:12
  Brian Travis: You know if we have traffic pushed on one side of the roadway, there's a certain section on the west part of this job that we go down to three lanes near Southfield Road.
• 15:24
  Brian Travis: Lahser again kind of presents an issue with width of construction to build some of the stuff that we need to build in the median.
• 15:33
  Brian Travis: That would probably push construction another six months into a third season.
• 15:37
  Brian Travis: So having traffic detoured is really our best option here.
• 15:41
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that.
• 15:43
  Jeff Cranson: Oftentimes it's obviously safety is first and it's much safer to not have workers right there with the heavy traffic, but it also makes the project more efficient overall.
• 15:55
  Jeff Cranson: Right, it's less time doing the rebuild.
• 15:58
  Brian Travis: Yeah, certainly.
• 15:59
  Brian Travis: And again, a lesson learned here is access for us and the contractor.
• 16:05
  Brian Travis: We have to get in and move around the job efficiently and when you're trying to maintain too much traffic it really limits our access with ramps and the amount of room that we have to stage equipment and materials.
• 16:17
  Brian Travis: So, Really, building eight miles of freeway, both bounds, in two years is about as aggressive as a schedule as we can produce here.
• 16:31
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I mean, we all take freeways, roads for granted.
• 16:35
  Jeff Cranson: There's an armchair engineer in everybody and they drive by and think, whatever, however long it's taking, it's taking too long right, because it's inconveniencing me.
• 16:45
  Jeff Cranson: So, yeah, I know you got to deal with that.
• 16:47
  Jeff Cranson: You probably hear it from friends and family and have to spend time explaining and there's probably sometimes you wish that nobody knew you worked for MDOT, right.
• 16:55
  Brian Travis: Yeah, yeah, it happens all the time.
• 17:00
  Jeff Cranson: So, as you look toward this and the benefits obviously smoother pavement, nicer ride what else would be added benefits once this is completed and kind of modernized?
• 17:14
  Brian Travis: I mean, I think it's a benefit to all.
• 17:16
  Brian Travis: This is one of our busiest corridors in the state.
• 17:18
  Brian Travis: Traffic numbers range from 180,000 to 200,000 vehicles a day, depending on what part of this corridor you're on.
• 17:26
  Brian Travis: So I think, as commuters, we can all appreciate a brand new freeway and, like I said, from 275 to 94, that's a 28-mile stretch.
• 17:37
  Brian Travis: If you include the I-96 flex route to Kent Lake Road, that's another 12 miles.
• 17:43
  Brian Travis: That's 40 miles of freeway.
• 17:44
  Brian Travis: That's going to be basically brand new.
• 17:46
  Brian Travis: That we've done since 2018.
• 17:49
  Brian Travis: I mean, that's a huge accomplishment, not only for us but for the area.
• 17:53
  Brian Travis: It affects everybody.
• 17:55
  Brian Travis: It affects business, commerce, safety.
• 17:58
  Brian Travis: So it's hard to argue with the benefit that everyone's going to see when this is all said and done.
• 18:05
  Jeff Cranson: Well, one of the things we came across in that history was a reference to the American Autobahn and I can see where that came from, because it certainly feels like that sometimes.
• 18:14
  Jeff Cranson: I know the state police have done targeted enforcement there and been amazed at the number of citations just in a matter of a few hours, just in a matter of a few hours.
• 18:23
  Jeff Cranson: So that probably goes as much as anything to your point about the safety of having the freeway completely closed because people drive really fast on 696.
• 18:32
  Brian Travis: They do.
• 18:32
  Brian Travis: Yeah, the speed limit in our work zones is 60 miles an hour.
• 18:35
  Brian Travis: A lot of people don't follow that and it's concerning and that's a major reason we have crashes and fender benders and you know congestion out there.
• 18:47
  Brian Travis: It's people want to get to where they're going as soon as possible and don't consider the consequences a lot of times.
• 18:54
  Brian Travis: So you're right, this helps.
• 18:55
  Brian Travis: You know, westbound is going to be maintained both years.
• 18:59
  Brian Travis: They're going to have a shoulder, so it's much safer if you, if you, have a crash out there, it's more like it functions right now when traffic is in its normal configuration.
• 19:09
  Brian Travis: So I think you know, although the detour will be painful for commuters, I think people are going to find their route.
• 19:16
  Brian Travis: They're going to find their way and hopefully be appreciative that they're not stuck two-way traffic with no shoulder and having sort of just unpredictable commutes every day.
• 19:27
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah Well, thank you for talking about that and you know I wish you luck.
• 19:32
  Jeff Cranson: Let's pivot real quickly to your other big project, wrapping up the I-96 Flex route in western Oakland County.
• 19:39
  Jeff Cranson: Where do we stand with that?
• 19:42
  Jeff Cranson: And the follow-up would be talk a little bit about ramp metering and how that will work.
• 19:47
  Brian Travis: Sure.
• 19:47
  Brian Travis: So we've completed basically all of the physical construction out there on the flex route.
• 19:52
  Brian Travis: We'll have a few things that we have to go tackle in the spring, just some some minor concrete work and some some bridge epoxy overlay work.
• 20:01
  Brian Travis: But the main focal point is is the actual flex route infrastructure right?
• 20:06
  Brian Travis: So if you've commuted that route since December, you've probably seen the red Xs that are currently present over the shoulder.
• 20:14
  Brian Travis: We're testing the system right now, internally testing all the different scenarios, testing the software, the equipment, the electronics.
• 20:25
  Brian Travis: We are planning to go live, hopefully by the end of next month, end of February, with the flex route.
• 20:31
  Brian Travis: So you know that's again going to function during peak periods People will have an extra lane on eastbound in the morning, an extra lane on westbound in the afternoon.
• 20:40
  Brian Travis: The ramp metering is also going to be part of that.
• 20:44
  Brian Travis: We're testing that as well.
• 20:46
  Brian Travis: So you've probably seen traffic signals at the end of some of the on-ramps throughout the corridor.
• 20:52
  Brian Travis: There's eight ramps that are going to be affected by this and the ramp metering is there to kind of go hand in hand with the flex row.
• 20:59
  Brian Travis: The meters will function when traffic is congested on that mainline freeway and what that does is just allows traffic to be integrated in that corridor one by one, rather than sending a platoon of, say, 10 to 20 cars on at one time, just causing more downstream congestion on the freeway.
• 21:23
  Jeff Cranson: This is the first time that we've.
• 21:24
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, go ahead.
• 21:25
  Jeff Cranson: I'm just going to say it's proven to make for much safer entry on freeways when it's been used in other states.
• 21:33
  Brian Travis: Yeah, and it's used in a lot of other states.
• 21:36
  Brian Travis: We had it here briefly, I think, in the 1980s on the Lodge and maybe 94.
• 21:42
  Brian Travis: But for most drivers here it's going to be brand new, so I think there's going to be a learning curve.
• 21:48
  Brian Travis: It's fairly simple.
• 21:50
  Brian Travis: There's a signal that you're going to be required to stop at when it's activated, and other times of day when it's not activated, it's going to flash yellow.
• 22:01
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to the technology.
• 22:05
  Jeff Cranson: Obviously, that section is as busy as US 23 is where the first flex route is.
• 22:10
  Jeff Cranson: That section of 96 in Oakland County is is is very busy certain times of day and I think it'll it'll be a real nice bonus for the people that have to travel that.
• 22:21
  Jeff Cranson: So is there anything else you want to say about either one of these things, brian, before we wrap up?
• 22:25
  Brian Travis: I'll just say the 696 project we've been working on the last couple years.
• 22:30
  Brian Travis: We'll have a bit more work in the spring to put in permanent pavement markings on eastbound 696.
• 22:38
  Brian Travis: We have some tree plantings to do, so you'll see some activity out there as well.
• 22:42
  Brian Travis: But for the most part, with that project and the FlexRoute you know, we're substantially complete as far as traffic impacts.
• 22:50
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, no, that's great.
• 22:52
  Jeff Cranson: It'll be a nice thing to celebrate.
• 22:54
  Jeff Cranson: Well, thank you, as always, for taking time to talk about these things.
• 22:57
  Jeff Cranson: I really appreciate the effort you put into communicating with the public and various people that are affected by these things.
• 23:05
  Jeff Cranson: It's a very important part of what you do.
• 23:08
  Brian Travis: Yeah, appreciate the opportunity to talk through this.
• 23:11
  Brian Travis: You know we're expecting another successful project and excited to get started.
• 23:18
  Brian Travis: Yeah, that's great.
• 23:20
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talking Michigan Transportation.
• 23:24
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout.
• 23:28
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jacke Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.