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The Paranormal Romance to Romantasy Pipeline: How 2000s Books Shaped BookTok's Favorite Titles · Main Chapter

0:01
SPEAKER_01: Hello, my book Butterflies, and welcome to this week's episode of the Main Chapter Podcast.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: My name is Brianna, and if you haven't already, please be sure to like and subscribe so we can continue growing and spreading our love of books in the entire world.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: Now, if you watched last week's episode, I originally talked about doing an episode all about book talk.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: But if there have been a page of plans in this week, we are talking all about romantic and paranormal romance, specifically the pipeline between the two.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: I have brought on my good friend Caitlin, who is a paranormal romance expert.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: She grew up reading Twilight and series I hadn't even heard of.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: And really nice like how this peak of paranormal romance between 2005 and 2012 really helped lead to the romantic boom we see today with Avatar, Fourth Wing, and all the other fun series that are coming out.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: It's a super great episode that focuses on nostalgia, YA fantasy, fan fiction, and of course modern fangirl things like Accord of Thorn Roses.
1:04
SPEAKER_01: Can't believe the new book comes out next month.
1:07
SPEAKER_01: But I hope you enjoy it.
1:08
SPEAKER_01: Caitlin is such a fun person to talk to, and I really hope you enjoy this interview.
1:14
SPEAKER_01: Let's go ahead and roll the tape.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Well, Caitlin, welcome to main chapter.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: I am so excited to have you.
1:21
SPEAKER_01: Caitlin is one of my dear, dear friends.
1:24
SPEAKER_01: We met at UCLA seven years ago, if you can believe it, in 2019 at a film club.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: But she is like one of the most intellectual, coolest people I know.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: She lives in London now.
1:36
SPEAKER_01: She is my London sister.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: But Caitlin, do you want to introduce yourself to the main chapter audience?
1:43
SPEAKER_01: Talk about your interests, your current reads, maybe.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd love that.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: So I think in general, I would consider myself a fantasy reader.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Like that is my favorite genre.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: But recently I've been trying to branch off a bit.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: So I've been trying to read a couple of different genres this year.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: And my most recent read that I just finished yesterday actually is The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, which I just I can't stop thinking about it.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: I woke up this morning and I was rereading my favorite bits before I got out of bed.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh, because it really touched me in a way I feel like a book hasn't in a long time.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: But my next read that I'm probably hoping to start maybe today or tomorrow is The Raven Scholar, uh, which I've heard a lot of really good things about.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, as I understand it, it's a fantasy, but it's a mystery, it might might have murder, mystery either with or without the murder, I'm not sure.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's also a bit of romance in there.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited to get started on that one.
2:45
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that sounds so exciting.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: We were just talking yesterday, Caitlin and I, about the song of Achilles.
2:51
SPEAKER_01: And I'm too nervous to start it.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: I don't like when the endings can be somewhat sad, but she says there's a little bit of a happy ending.
2:58
SPEAKER_01: So maybe I'll get to it in like 2027 or something like that.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: Kinda.
3:03
SPEAKER_00: It is happy in a sense.
3:08
SPEAKER_01: In a sense.
3:11
SPEAKER_01: It's perfect that Caitlin loves fantasy because today we are talking about paranormal romance and romanticity, specifically how we feel that there's kind of a pipeline between the two.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: And people who have watched or listened to the main chapter know I love to start these type of episodes out with definitions.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: So everyone is kind of on the same page.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: So our also lovely friend Google defines paranormal romance as a subgenre of romance and speculative fiction that centers on a love story involving supernatural, magical, or otherworldly elements.
3:45
SPEAKER_01: And characters can include vampires, shapeshifters, werewolves.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And so a prime example of this is, of course, Twilight by Stephanie Myers.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And now what's really popular today is romantic.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: And that blends basically equal parts of romance and fantasy.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: People can kind of be divided when it comes to what is a true romanticy, but the consensus is that it's a fantasy world with the romance at the center of the plot.
4:14
SPEAKER_01: It's not necessarily a subplot.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: And it can still sometimes include those characters from paranormal romance, but we see more things like fairies and magical beings.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: And a very big component of romantic is there's world building.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, paranormal romance typically happens in the modern world.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: Caitlin, is there anything that you want to add to that?
4:36
SPEAKER_00: I think you pretty much nailed it.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: So they're not exactly the same.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Like exactly what you said, paranormal romance isn't really necessarily like a prequel to romanticity, but there are definitely a lot of overlap between both.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: And very prime examples of romantic today are Accord of Born and Roses, Fourth Wing.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: If you're a romanticy reader, you've probably read both of those or at least one of the series.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't, at least are always hearing about it, and it's on your discourse on your TikTok for you page.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: But I'm really interested to talk about paranormal romance and pick Caitlin's brain because I didn't really read paranormal romance too much.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: It had its peak kind of between 2005 and 2012.
5:24
SPEAKER_01: And of course, we have Twilight, but there's also like the vampire diaries.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: There was True Blood happening on TV.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: And I wasn't really interested at that at the time, if I'm being completely honest.
5:34
SPEAKER_01: I think towards the end, my mom was like, well, if you're you're old enough, you can watch it if you want to.
5:39
SPEAKER_01: And I just like wasn't really interested.
5:41
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure why.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: I feel like 25-year-old me is kind of kicking yourself because I feel like I lost out on a moment.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: But Caitlin, you were a big fan of Twilight and Paranormal Romance.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: What initially led you to pick up those books in that genre?
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a great question.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, I would say I think around that age, as a girl growing up, you definitely want to.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this also just applies to like any moment of life, right?
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Like you want to read something that you can relate to.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: And the thing about those books is you can guarantee the protagonist of that book was gonna be a girl in high school, which I was at the time.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: So it's like, okay, I want to read about girls being girls in high school, all of the challenges that come with it, and also all of the weirdness about it, which somehow I feel really transposed onto like all of these weird magical elements that were also infused into these books, so like the paranormal um element of it.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: There's just something about the weirdness and strangeness of high school, and like coming into like that kind of age and like not really being sure what's going on, and like everything is so strange, and the having that being mirrored in like a paranormal uh fantasy book that I think is primarily what drew me to it.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: But apart from that, I think like I also grew up reading books like you know, The Chronicles of Nania, or like um uh like uh what's the sci-fi one with the little kid and the fairies?
7:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, Otto's Fowl.
7:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, those books were also like really special to me, or even something like this a series of unfortunate events, which um is complete fiction.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't really get thrown into the box of like fantasy or anything, but there's still this element of like a fantastical world in it, and I felt like when I was ready to kind of graduate from that and read um books for like older kids, there wasn't really anything else along those lines except for YA paramo fiction, and specifically, I feel like at that time um is when you're being introduced to romance and you want to start reading a little bit more about that.
7:56
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
7:57
SPEAKER_01: That sounds so fun.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I read fantasy in a little bit in elementary school, but then I started really doing it in middle school.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: That's when I really got into the Harry Potter series.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: I dabbled a little bit in Percy Jackson, and then by high school, I completely transitioned to contemporary romance.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: I kind of just like left fantasy to the curve, but I'm not sure why.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: I think maybe I got fatigue from all the dystopian romances or like utopias I was also reading, like Divergent and Hunger Games and all that.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: So it's nice to kind of revisit that now in my adulthood.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: But I wish like you had I wish I had this consistent arc in my childhood of reading so I could have experienced the paranormal romance genre.
8:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm experiencing a little bit of it today because I feel like it's slowly making its comeback.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's ever gonna be in its peak like it was in the 2000s and early 2010s, but even when like Penguin Random House has like Ace Publishing that talks about like paranormal romance and also like their fantasy sector.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: But I feel like a lot of contemporary paranormal romances now are a little more comedic and lighthearted than they were than when we saw like kind of like that Twilight era.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: They rely on like a lot of contemporary romance tropes, which I think in turn does make them more digestible for me.
9:14
SPEAKER_01: Like I love Bride by Allie Hazelwood and Mate, though it did take me like a solid like 50 pages to get into both of those books because it was so different for me.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: But then that was like, oh, I really like this.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: And then one of my favorite authors, Elena Armas, has a paranormal romance coming out in November called like Alma Vampires and like dark academia, and also kind of like this enemies to lovers that seems really fun and interesting.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: But I'm wondering for you, as someone who grew up in the time of like peak paranormal romance, what is it like for you now seeing these modern ones that are a little bit more lighthearted and have like tropes like oh there's only one more one bed, or like enemies to lovers, like kind of thing.
9:56
SPEAKER_00: I love a good trope.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: I think a trope is kind of like an inside joke between the reader and the author.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: It's like when you see a good trope, like if you if you know the two characters are going into a room, there's one room left, and surprise, surprise, there's one bed in it, you know what's coming next.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: So I feel like it's really fun to read those books.
10:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh at the same time, I feel like I myself am having a little bit of trope fatigue, just a tad, as fun as they are.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: I feel like sometimes uh some of the newer books can rely a little bit too much on the trope.
10:37
SPEAKER_00: I feel like tropes are supposed to be sprinkles on a cake, they're not really the structure holding the cake together.
10:43
SPEAKER_00: And I prefer not to read books that are just um the plot is just a series of of tropes strung along together.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: I think um it's much more exciting when like the plot takes you somewhere new and unexpected.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, to me, that's really exciting, and then the like cherry on top is when like that trope gets inserted into it.
11:07
SPEAKER_00: But a lot of these tropes are things that um initially pull me into kind of reading fantasy and romance.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: I feel like they're probably a bit more common in romance than they are in fantasy.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's really nice when you're reading a romance, like there's specific milestones in the relationship you look for, and I think tropes can be like a really good way to um find those.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: Do you think there are like any tropes that are like now weird to see in paranormal romance, or like you wouldn't expect to see them in paranormal romance?
11:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I feel like the love triangle is a classic.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: I always went for the YA romances with a love triangle, like it would just guarantee you like some level of angst, which is really fun for me to read.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think I don't really have a problem with the tropes being repetitive, to be honest, because we love a trope because it is repetitive.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Like you want to read the same trope over and over and over.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: And if you have a favorite trope, like that's totally valid.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: But I just think it has to be done well, and um it has to add a layer on top of like already existing depth, it can't just be like the only thing to offer the reader in a book.
12:29
SPEAKER_00: That's all.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: Right.
12:30
SPEAKER_01: And so I know like one of the most famous love triangles of all time is of course the Twilight series when it comes to paranormal romance.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: Would you say like that is your favorite paranormal romance, or is there like another series that takes the cake for you?
12:44
SPEAKER_00: I think it has to be Twilight just because of the reach of it, like the movies are also so good.
12:50
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I mean, some people are like, oh, they're so good, so bad.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: Some people are like, no, they're so bad, so bad.
12:55
SPEAKER_00: Some people are like, they're so good, so good.
12:57
SPEAKER_00: I think they're so good, so good.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think just for like what it did for me specifically, which is like really getting me into reading fantasy and really opening, opening up my reading appetite for those kinds of stories.
13:13
SPEAKER_00: I think it has to be my favorite.
13:15
SPEAKER_00: It is an icon, it is a staple, and I think like the really interesting thing about Twilight is that it was not really based on like a pre-existing um book or anything like that.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: So it was really sort of the first of its kind.
13:37
SPEAKER_00: I mean, of course, there were like so many books about like vampires and werewolves and stuff before, like, probably even in a high school setting, but I think um the specific tropes in Twilight, even with Bella being like not one of those girls, like I think it was kind of the first of its kind in a very specific way that doesn't often happen.
14:00
SPEAKER_00: In comparison, I feel like a lot of the books after that were kind of like reheating Twilight Nachos a little bit, and I didn't mind.
14:08
SPEAKER_00: Some of them were still like very unique and enjoyable, but um, I think for what it did for the culture, it has to be my favorite.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: But I think another honorable mention is the hush-hush series.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: I remember like really enjoying that one, and then there was there's a couple others, like there's the sweet series by Wendy Higgins.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I remember reading, which is really good, or Pen Rin and The End of Days, and pretty much all of these are like the main character falling in love with like some kind of supernatural lead love interest, um, which is really interesting, especially as a teen, because I think teenage boys are so foreign to the teenage girl, like we just cannot really conceptualize what is going on in their heads, so they might as well be like uh a vampire, a werewolf, a fallen angel, or something like totally otherworldly.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: Like that just made sense to my teenage brain at the time.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
15:01
SPEAKER_01: And like in my 20s, 20-something-year-old men are also a foreign concept to my brain.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: They might as well also be a vampire or a werewolf or something.
15:11
SPEAKER_01: I you know, at this point, I might as well, I would take that over the modern man, sadly, sadly.
15:17
SPEAKER_01: But my actually my confession when you're talking about Twilight, Twilight is the blueprint, is I've only seen one Twilight movie, and it was like three years ago, and I feel like I was half paying attention.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I was just so I was asking a lot of questions, like, why is it so dark?
15:32
SPEAKER_01: I didn't really understand it.
15:34
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like I now have to like go back.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's fall, or trying to say like it's fall, it's so hot over here, but like pretending that it's fall is like the perfect time for me to go and watch it and try to get in touch with these paranormal romance roots because it's the blueprint, absolutely, and you know, besides it being fall, I feel like right now we're having a Robert Panson Renaissance, he's in like every other film, so it's great to kind of like go back and look at the origins.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Of course, he was in like that Oman Harry Potter film, but I feel like Twilight is really what um launched him into Superstardom.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: So he's trying to make sure we forget it.
16:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know what?
16:14
SPEAKER_00: You can look at the movie in like many different lenses as well.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: You can look at it for the romance, you can look at it for the comedy, like there's a lot you can do with it.
16:23
SPEAKER_01: Yes, and so before we start transitioning over to romantic ceiling, one thing I wanted to ask was you mentioned Hush Hush.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: I actually had not heard of any of the series that you mentioned besides Twilight, but what was like Hush Hush about specifically for maybe people who are looking for some nostalgic paranormal romances?
16:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes, so hush hush is the story of this girl named Nora, and I think she just moved to town in Hawaii paranormal romance.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: The girl has always just moved to a new town, like 99% of the time.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: So I think she's new to town, I think she's new to that particular high school, and then she encounters this like weird guy named Patch, and then she eventually, yeah, it's not great, like a Sour Patch Kid Patch.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: I actually can't remember if he has like a real name or if that's just a nickname.
17:19
SPEAKER_00: I really cannot remember.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: Actually, one of my friends just reread, um, just reread the entire series um for the first time ever, actually.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a reread, it was a fresh read.
17:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, and she's my age as well, and she loved it.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: She's like, it's so silly, it's so corny, but it's so enjoyable.
17:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, but she and it ends up discovering that he's like a fall-on angel assigned to protect her, and like I think he's her guardian angel, and she ends up falling for him, but like that's not allowed.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: So forbidden romance is also like a huge trope in the paranormal romance um genre, but I just remember it so distinctly because it was set on like I think this town on like the west coast, and it was always like kind of the weather was always moody, so it had like that kind of twilight vibe.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so much of it is just like very distinctive to me.
18:12
SPEAKER_00: Like, I remember a lot of it.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: You know what?
18:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of hooked.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: I was like listening and I was like, wait, like, why am I actually kind of interested?
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like small town, and then there's also like some kind of like weird supernatural thing happening on the side, I think with like rogue fallen angels like killing people or something, and they have to uncover the mystery.
18:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's a lot going on.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: Listen, like, I have to get through like the rest of Crescent City before Akatar comes out, and then I have Avatar, and then by then I'm focusing on holiday romances, but now I'm trying to figure out if I can get hush hush into my fall 2026 timeline because I love reading this kind of stuff during the fall, but who knows?
18:52
SPEAKER_01: Who knows?
18:52
SPEAKER_01: We'll we'll report back on it.
18:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but one thing we like talked about, like, of course, with paranormal romance, there's not as much world building when it comes to it with like fantasy or other similar genres.
19:04
SPEAKER_01: It basically like happens in the modern world, so readers don't have to do too much brain work when it comes to like thinking about how things are operating besides the actual supernatural being themselves.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people say that paranormal romance kind of laid the groundwork for basically what's urban fantasy, which is fantasy that happens in the modern world.
19:25
SPEAKER_01: So the same thing where there's not a lot of world building or creation that happens to have to happen on the author's end and also for the reader to digest.
19:34
SPEAKER_01: So, do you think there was some type of pipeline between paranormal romance and urban fantasy specifically?
19:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it might actually be the other way around because the other day I was asking a friend for recommendations and she recommended an urban fantasy series for me that was from like the early 2000s.
19:56
SPEAKER_00: So I actually think that was well, I don't know, the the chicken or the egg come first, but I think that definitely was um uh the first uh sort of like the first genre, the first iteration of the genre, and then I think the YA element came from that.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, I don't know this for sure, but like I would definitely imagine a world where like you know, um Stephanie Mayer or um Becca Fitzpatrick, who's the author of Hush Hush, or um, oh I also forgot to mention Vampire Academy, but that was a big one by Rochelle Meade.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: That was a huge series back in the day.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: But I I would like to imagine that like these authors were all reading urban fantasy already and then decided, okay, we're gonna adapt this for the teenage girl.
20:50
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think maybe that's the order of operation, but I definitely think urban fantasy is having a comeback.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: I haven't really read one in a long time, but I've just heard a lot of people talking about them recently.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: And I feel it actually has more to do with like romantic appetite growing versus there being like a pipeline from YA paranormal romance.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: That's fair because fantasy has been around.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: It's like one of the oldest genres, and while legends of vampires and werewolves have also been around for hundreds of years.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: I feel like it was a while before it was actually put in like a fiction romance book.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:35
SPEAKER_00: And I think like a lot of them are also kind of mocked as pulp fiction, like just those like paperbacks you can get, like at the dollar store and stuff.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: They weren't really seen as like highbrow fiction, not that like romantic or white novel romance are like seen as highbrow fiction either, but they definitely have a bit more of a luxury appeal.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you see a lot of those books getting like special editions, hot cover.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Things like that.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you're always gonna find them in like the nice section of a nice bookstore versus just like in the airport or um in like the dollar store or something like that.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
22:14
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, of course, urban fantasy romantic, it's on the rise, it's like in this big boom, and paranormal romance, it's still there, but it's not it's this phenomenon that it once was.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: So, as like an OG reader, where do you think everyone went?
22:29
SPEAKER_01: What happened that kind of caused this fizzle out?
22:33
SPEAKER_01: I think we just grew up.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, I think we just grew up and we wanted to uh there's only so long you can read stories about like kids in high school when you yourself are no longer in high school.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: I think as a reader, you're always looking to read something you can really relate to.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like the modern romanticy writer really clocked that T.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: They said, Look, the girls are older, we want romance with a little more spice, and we want to give the girls in their like early mid-20s something fun to read that scratches that same like YA paranormal romance itch.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think that's really what happened.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: To be honest, like I just I don't really have a lot of teenagers in my life, so I don't know what they're reading.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: But I would be, there's been it's been a long time since I've heard somebody like mention even like something like Vampire Academy that was like so wildly popular.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: There's like you know, a series about it, there's like a movie about it as well.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: Like a lot of these um are really like I don't even think I can find them in the bookstore anymore, which is kind of strange.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: Honestly, I'm not really sure what teenagers are reading.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: I know they're reading Lynn Painter because I love Lynn Painter, and I once went to like a Lynn Painter event, and I was one of the oldest people in the room.
24:02
SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my gosh.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: You know what?
24:05
SPEAKER_00: They're also definitely reading romance because um obviously with the summer I turned pretty just coming out on Prime.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people are into that on reading it, and I distinctly remember reading those books in high school.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: I actually remember like it was so long ago.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: Uh Jenny Han had like this blog on Tumblr, and she would post her playlist for each book on there.
24:26
SPEAKER_00: And I remember when the the show came out, I would be like, um, I'd be like uh watching it to see like if any of the songs from the OG playlists made it onto it.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
24:38
SPEAKER_01: So the teens they're reading contemporary romance.
24:40
SPEAKER_01: We know they're reading contemporary romance.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: But if you guys have any insight on what the teens are reading, any listeners or watchers, definitely comment because we're we're curious.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: And so you basically said that, you know, all paranormal romance readers, they've grown up in the romantic authors, they they knew it.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: I would also argue that some of the you know original like paranormal romance readers are also longing for nostalgia, which is why we kind of see this new contemporary romance, uh not contemporary romance, paranormal romance resurgence, but it's not the same.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: But basically, what's taking the cake now is romantic.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: I saw a statistic that in 2024 there were 610 million dollars in book sales just from the romanticy genre.
25:27
SPEAKER_01: So it is having this huge boom.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: So you have loved fantasy since the beginning of your life.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: What are your thoughts on this like subgenre of romantic?
25:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I remember starting to read Throne of Glass during my gap year between high school and college.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: So um Queen of Shadows had just come out, so I was eagerly awaiting um Empire of Storms, which was like just the longest wait of my life, and then also to finally have that book to devour it in one day and have that specific cliffhanger.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: I wanted to kill myself.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not sure if you have to bleep that up.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: No, I you know, it depends on the platform, but I think we'll be okay.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay, but um that was agonizing, and then the book after that is in KL's POV.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: Jail.
26:23
SPEAKER_00: Jail.
26:24
SPEAKER_00: But all of this was happening when I was um it wasn't even that popular at the time.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: I remember I remember like scrolling through Pinterest for like fan odd, and the only real the only fan art at that time really was like Charlie Boote, fan odd.
26:37
SPEAKER_00: And then it was it's really exciting to kind of like be with the series since then because eventually some of Charlie's odd made it onto like the inside cover of like some special editions and things like that.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: So um, as like an OG fan, that was like really um fun to see.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: But I think what really led to the explosion of it is because um these books, these romantic books, had like a really big online presence.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: And then I think COVID happened and everybody was at home looking for stuff to read.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: And when you go on the internet and you kind of search, like, okay, fun fantasy books, these are the books that are really going to come up.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: And in fact, how I found these books were really um through like uh fantasy romance and YA paranormal fantasy lists on um good reads and things like that, because even when you think about book one of Akata or like the first two books, three books in um Throne of Glass, these weren't really that spicy, so they were still kind of towing the YA adult line.
27:49
SPEAKER_01: Right, because I was gonna ask if you think Throne of Glass is like a romanticy or if it's more fantasy with a romance subplot.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Because every time someone recommends Throne of Glass to me, they're like, oh, it's more fantasy than romance.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: So would you agree, or would you say it's like a it falls into the romanticy genre?
28:06
SPEAKER_00: I agree that it is fantasy because there's a couple different romantic subplots in it, but there's like a main plot that is formal, complicated, and sits a bit separately from the romance.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: For me, I feel like in a true romanticy, also I don't really want to pigeonhole romantic.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Romantic can be whatever it wants.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: Just keep writing it, keep making good romanticy, please.
28:34
SPEAKER_00: But um I feel like uh what I really consider romantic is when the romantic plot line is like very much intertwined with like the main plot plot line.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: They may or may not be the same.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
28:48
SPEAKER_01: So like Avatar is like a classic textbook romantic, but thrown a glass.
28:52
SPEAKER_01: It really is fantasy or romantic.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: I liked how you like brought up like COVID in online because I remember I actually had interviewed a romanticy author, I believe it was back in like March or April, sometime in the spring, and we were talking about like the recent boom in romanticy, and she basically was like, it's because of book talk and online communities, because you can now go online and feel like you're not alone in your interest, versus you just couldn't go into a library and be like, oh, do you like falling in love with fairies and things like that?
29:22
SPEAKER_01: Like people would think you were you were weird.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: So I was wondering like, did you think when you were growing up and like reading like the paranormal romance in Twilight, was there like a stigma behind liking that stuff, or were you like loud and proud about your fandom?
29:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't think there was so much of a stigma, but I think finding people IRL who also uh read those things were hard.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: Like I remember distinctly I had like two or three friends who were also reading this genre with me in high school and not a lot of other people.
29:55
SPEAKER_00: Like, I remember I was reading They're in a blast now because I had nobody to talk about it to, so I would just like talk about it with my friends anyway, and they'd just be like, Oh, here she goes again talking about this book.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'd be sending random people, like voice notes explaining the play-by-play of these plots, and also even in COVID, like I convinced my best friend to read it, and um, she was like, I'll only read it if you reread the series with me.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: I said, Okay, no problem.
30:22
SPEAKER_00: So we would get on Zoom just like this during COVID and we would read it and try to read at the same speed, and like I'd just be waiting, kind of looking at her to make the the reactions.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: So we were doing live reading together, but um, yeah, it definitely there weren't like a lot of uh TikToks or anything with people like posting reactions about the books or talking about it at that time, like it definitely wasn't as popular.
30:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of fun.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: You were doing that over Zoom.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that would drive me crazy because my friends and I have different reading speeds, so like I'm a lot faster than some of my friends, and I'm a lot slower than some of my friends.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't think we could do a live reading like that.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: We drive each other crazy one way, yeah.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: It's tough.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, also it's COVID, so like during that time you had nothing to do.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: I definitely would not do it.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: Fair enough, fair enough.
31:09
SPEAKER_01: So you talked about like we talked about how like paranormal romance basically the authors were like, oh my gosh, we need to write something for the paranormal romance romance girlies who have now grown up.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: And when I was researching for this episode, I actually came across a video from the book Leo, and she had like this amazing video breaking down romanticy, and she had basically said that she also thought like romantic was for the people who loved YA fantasy specifically growing up and while wanted something in more adult context.
31:37
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like YA fantasy and paranormal romance did kind of have similar area eras of like peak popularity intersecting.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: Do you feel like those fan bases like crossed it all?
31:49
SPEAKER_01: Like if you were a Twilight fan, you were also like a really big fan of like Throne of Glass or Harry Potter or like those fantasies that were popular at the time?
31:59
SPEAKER_00: I think so for sure.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, because I think basically, um, if you grew up reading like YA Paranormal Romance specifically, you either had a choice to just like continue reading regular fantasy, um, young adult fantasy or young adult romance.
32:19
SPEAKER_00: There wasn't really something that like incorporated all of that in one genre.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: But also, like some other books I was reading at that time would be like the Cruel Prince series, um, which is YA fantasy with some romance in it.
32:37
SPEAKER_00: Also, the Mortal Instruments was super popular.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: I I mean Will Herringale is like my first official book boyfriend.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: Like, I just loved him so much.
32:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and he's one of the protagonists in The Infernal Devices, which is like the prequel um series to that main series.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, a lot of those books were actually also funny enough, based on Harry Potter or like um some other existing like IP.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh so I think they're all definitely they they share similar DNA and history for sure.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: And so obviously, like authors, it's like easy to pull, or romantic authors, it's easy to pull from YA fantasy because fantasy, romantic, they still fall under like this overarch uh fantasy.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:26
SPEAKER_01: But what do you think like romanticy authors today are specifically pulling from like paranormal romance when it comes like to this paranormal romance popularity to romanticy popularity pipeline?
33:40
SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: I think I know I kind of threw a curveball there at you.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: Um no, but I love this question.
33:48
SPEAKER_00: Um my god, I love this question.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: But um, I think really and truly, I hate to say it, I think a lot of people are repeating SJM nachos.
33:59
SPEAKER_00: Um, and but I think what she did, I mean, people can talk about her writing quality all they want.
34:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, and like, okay, people have a lot of very fair criticisms of her work, and I totally understand that.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: But I think she combined things in a way that wasn't really combined before.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: So she did very much pull a Stephanie Meyer, and she's like, here is this brand new Frankenstein that I made.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: I hope you like it.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: And lo and behold, we really did like it.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think romanticy is actually it doesn't just share DNA with like the YA paranormal romance or just like YA fantasy, but I think it also actually shares a lot of DNA with fanfiction.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: Um and it's just it's really funny that both like I feel like there was a boom of fan fiction and a romanticity on the same same time, which is like during um the pandemic.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: Not that like either of those things weren't popular before, it was just not as mainstream, and I feel like these things became slightly more mainstream during the pandemic, and I think a lot of those elements are kind of like just the sort of um indulgence element of it.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Um the thing about fanfiction is like you just wanna have a really good time, like that's pretty much it, and you can do whatever you want.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like there's honestly an element of romancy where it's like, listen, we're here to have a good time, just don't think too hard about it.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be a lot of like magic and adventure, and there's gonna be romance, and you know, is all of it gonna make absolute sense?
35:45
SPEAKER_00: Maybe, maybe not, but we are here for a good time, not a long time, so let's enjoy it.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
35:50
SPEAKER_01: I feel like love her or hate her, like SJM is the mother of romanticy.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: And some people argue that like romanticy is now like a marketing term to basically like draw in like SJM readers or like Rebecca Yarrow's readers, because those are like the true, true top romanticies of our time, and now everyone like wants to like grab onto their fan bases.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: But I really liked that you brought up fan fiction because I feel like there are even like fantasies and romanticies now that started out as fan fiction and are now like actually published works.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think a couple years ago I read the first book in the Hurricane Wars trilogy by Thea Guanzan.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: I might have mispronounced her name, so I'm so sorry if I did.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: But it was, I heard I was like originally like a Relo fanfic, and like she was really into Star Wars, and there was like a really committed online fan base for that before it even became a published work, and people talking about like what changed between like the fan fiction format of it and the published format of it.
36:50
SPEAKER_01: Fan fiction, I feel like we all grew up reading it, whether you were on Wattpad or AO3 and did it proudly or did it secretly, and so I feel like same thing in like that term for like people are longing for nostalgia.
37:02
SPEAKER_01: I feel like romantic also can bring out that fan fiction nostalgia about it.
37:07
SPEAKER_01: So, so yeah, it is kind of interesting to also bring that into this discourse.
37:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I was definitely in the bowels of fanfiction.net reading Christy Jackson fanfiction when I was 14 years old, so I I've definitely seen some things I've been around the block.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Um and I think it is interesting recently.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: We've had quite a number of fanfictions um be adapted into uh a traditionally published work, and this is happening across multiple fandoms, and honestly, I think it's just it's hard for publishers to really, I think, market to audiences.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: The online world has really changed and shaped how people consume books.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: Um, and that is where a lot of the that is where the current book recommendation engine really lives, like in book doc, in bookstagram, in booktube.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, so you really need the people who have a huge digital footprint on these platforms to be the one recommending books to you.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, sometimes it's not just the reviewers who have that digital footprint, but it's often people who are already creating on those platforms um who have a built-in fandom that they can bring to publishers.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: Like I think that is something that's very appealing when you can say, like, hey, not only did I write this book, but I have proof that a lot of people are going to want to buy it.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's the dream for a publisher to hear because publisher publishing is a really difficult industry and it's very hard to break even.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: Majority of authors do not um earn back their advance.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: Like, there's only a very small percentage.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: I think it's either 5% or less of authors who are earning back their full advance.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: And those are the people like, and this is another thing about um SJN and Rebecca Yarros, like, love them or hate them, they are really supporting the girls, they are supporting the entire industry by just making it profitable and just creating opportunities for other people in those genres to produce work because they're proving that, like, hey, there is a very high demand for these kinds of stories.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: But it's not just people who are writing fanfiction online, but um people who are posting any kind of stories online.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: So, for example, Dungeon Colo Call is really popular right now, and that also was a project that started by Matt Dinnaman online during the pandemic that really blew up, and then he took to self-publishing, and now it's traditionally published and it's taking over every bookstore.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: I haven't read it yet, but it's on my list, and I love it.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, it's a lot um that can happen there.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: I know there's a lot to unpack.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: We've talked about fan fiction briefly.
40:10
SPEAKER_01: I remember you said that even like now that we're bringing publishing into it, it also changes the landscape of fan fiction, too.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Because before people were just writing fan fiction for the love of the game and to find community, and now there is like that opportunity for you to become published and well known.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: People now look at it as like a step in their career, potentially a building block, or look at it for monetization.
40:34
SPEAKER_01: So it can also take some of the authenticity out of it.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like there's not gonna be like that generation of kid who grows up reading fan fiction like we did, which is kind of sad.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: But we have about a few, a couple minutes left.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: So I just wanted to wrap up on a few questions.
40:50
SPEAKER_01: So I feel like because paranormal romance, romantic, fan fiction, because they're always not like the most intellectual or like thought-provoking of books, or they can even be very woman-dominated when it comes to the readers, it gets pigeonholed a lot, or it gets a lot of criticisms that it's not contributing to society, or there's no point to them.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think of these divisions and criticisms when it comes to the paranormal romance, romantic genre?
41:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think women have it hard enough.
41:20
SPEAKER_00: Let them read what they want to read, you know.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm never gonna tell like a mom who has worked all day long and has to come home, pick her kids up from school, feed her kids and stuff, and wants to sit down, turn her brain off and read some romantic, that that's wrong, you know, anti-intellectual or anything like that.
41:37
SPEAKER_00: I think let women read what they want to read.
41:39
SPEAKER_00: Of course, at the same time, like I always encourage people to read widely and don't just like, you know, restrict yourself to one genre.
41:48
SPEAKER_00: But I do feel like publishers, because they know that this genre is booming and it's very successful, I feel like what's happening is a lot of other writers who want to be published, they're asking them specifically to tailor their work to mimic the romanticy genre.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's creating a bit of a formulaic pattern that we're seeing more and more.
42:13
SPEAKER_00: And I think readers, or I can speak for myself alone, I'm getting a little bit exhausted with how formulaic it's becoming because what made like Avatar or Fourth Wing exciting is that I feel like those are pretty expansive books in the sense that we went in not really knowing what to expect, and it was a little bit beyond our expectations in some way or shape, just the nature of the story itself.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm not really talking about like craft or anything like that.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, and the more formulate works be, I feel like it restricts the possibilities for future works to kind of be expansive in that same way, and I feel like it's a genre that has a lot of room to grow and we can really do so much with it.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: Kind of like romance.
43:03
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's so many subgenres of romance, like there's a the cheesy, but still very, very, very good mafia romance, you know, that I love.
43:11
SPEAKER_00: There's like the bee tree, there's the rom-com, um, there's pride and prejudice, there's like the classic romances that are extremely moving and are extremely highbrow intellectual, and also like make very valid arguments about like society at a particular time, etc.
43:28
SPEAKER_00: And I just don't see a reason why we need to restrict romanticity and why like it can't be a genre that can like hold all of that um you know, all of that variety of topics as well.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: So um it sucks that publishers just kind of want it to be a little bit more formulaic, but who knows?
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Maybe somebody else will write something one day that will also just blow our socks off and make us pure else.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: I know.
43:56
SPEAKER_01: So that leads like perfectly to my last question.
43:59
SPEAKER_01: So, really quickly, do you think romanticy is going to make itself a staple?
44:05
SPEAKER_01: Or do you think it might fizzle out kind of like paranormal romance has?
44:09
SPEAKER_01: Like, are all the romanticy girlies gonna grow up and there's not gonna be a new generation to replace it?
44:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's already fizzling out, to be honest.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, I feel like I've lived through so many of the book trends, and that's not to say it'll go away.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think people will still write it, but I don't know if it will occupy such a um a central place and kind of like the cultural zeitgeist anymore, like it has been for the past couple years.
44:38
SPEAKER_00: I feel like my spidey senses are telling me we're kind of headed down more of like a dark academia or like gothic romance um path.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: I feel like right now that is very popular.
44:51
SPEAKER_00: I think if anything, we might see like um we might get like a dystopian romance come back, like probably adult dystopian romance um or something like that.
45:01
SPEAKER_00: But I feel like as far as like fairies specifically have gone, I feel like we're done with fairies and dragons.
45:09
SPEAKER_01: We're done with fairies and dragons.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: You're good.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: You're done.
45:11
SPEAKER_01: I completely agree with the dystopian romance because I feel like even like some of the romanticies I'm reading now, it's like very much giving dystopian.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: I'm like getting hints of like Hunger Games and The Selection, which was like my favorite series in middle school.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: So we could, I feel like we could do a totally other episode talking about the dystopian romance resurgence in Pipe Ly.
45:33
SPEAKER_01: But it was so great to talk about how this episode basically that the paranormal romance in the early 2000s or 2000s and early 2000s tens kind of helped create this romanticy boom that we see today, along with a lot of other factors, because you know, authors are evolving to keep up with their readers who long for a balance of nostalgia and something new.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, but this was so fun to talk and hang out with you and discuss books.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: I know we live so far apart, I always just love hanging out with you and getting to this.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: You gotta come to LA soon, or I gotta go back to L.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: Honestly.
46:11
SPEAKER_01: LA misses you, Queen.
46:13
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna step off the plane and everything's gonna turn pink.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
46:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, this was so great.
46:20
SPEAKER_01: And everyone, be sure to keep listening to the main chapter for more episodes about romanticity, dystopian romance, and author interviews.
46:29
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Caitlin.
46:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for having me.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: Of course.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for listening.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoyed that.
46:37
SPEAKER_01: Next week, I'm going back to author interviews.
46:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm feeling Haley Clummy talking all about her new contemporary romance eyes why shut.
46:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm reading this book right now, and I am loving it.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: I hope it died so much.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: And it also deals with medical representation, which is a topic that's really important to me.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: So I'm really excited to dive into it.
46:58
SPEAKER_01: I hope you come back.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: Have a great week, my book, butterfly.