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What I've Learnt - David McAllister · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, beyond the formidable combination of chul and lycra, how much can an audience ever truly understand about the demands of being a ballet dancer?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: What really is the pain and pleasure of pointed shoes and jockstraps?
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Can a wardrobe malfunction derail a scene?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we're about to find out.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: As the wonderful, talented David McAllister AC, former principal dancer and former artistic director of the Australian Ballet, has launched his second book, Ballet Confidential, a personal behind-the-scenes guide in a powerful overview of one of the performing arts most alluring and mysterious, physically demanding and mentally rigorous art forms.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, David says today's dancer is a strong, powerful and elite athlete.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Both the men and women possess incredible strength, mental toughness, and the ability to create feats of skill while having an emotive connection to the audience by creating a mood or telling a story through movement.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, with characteristic honesty and insight, David explores a raft of issues surrounding the business of dance from the joys and challenges that face young dancers and their families, the physical stamina required to build a ballet body, to accompany politics, on-stage disasters, off-stage relationships, the anxieties around weight gain and weight loss, theatre etiquette, the age-old curiosity surrounding boys who choose ballet instead of footy, plus David's thoughts on some of the world's great ballets, including Swanley, The Nutcracker, and Giselle.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Joining me on the What I've Learned podcast tonight is the wonderful David McAllister.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: Can't wait to chat.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: How are you, David?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: I'm good, David.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: So nice to be with you.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: So lovely to have you join me.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: So much to talk about.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, let's just go back.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_01: As I mentioned to you briefly, I read your first book and you talked about, you know, your upbringing, which I found really interesting.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then we'll move to obviously the focus on the second book.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: But you were a young boy living in Aussie suburbia, really, when your passion to entertain was first sparked.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: You describe it poetically in your first book, Saw.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about those early days, dreaming of dance with the Hills Hoist spinning in the background.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I love that whole imagery of the sort of, you know, it's really quite.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, I'm being somewhat creative, but it is, it isn't interesting.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: I found it really interesting.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: I was definitely a child of the 60s and the 70s growing up.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, definitely with the Hills Hoist in the background.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and a big television, which was sort of a huge, big sort of piece of furniture, which was almost for me like a mirror.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so I used to dance in front of that thing for hours before I even knew really what dancing was, and specifically ballet.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think being the third of five children, I was always looking for, you know, that sort of look at me, look at me moment.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, it just sort of evolved from there.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because really, you um were what, nine or ten when this when this sort of began to bubble up and emerge as something you loved.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is that would that be right about that age?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's very young.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was I was seven actually when I first decided ballet was the thing.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my earliest memory from as long as I can remember is is dancing.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, little sort of two-year-old, three-year-old, however long, however old I was, I can't really remember.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I just remembered dancing in front of the TV, spinning around.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: I used to tuck tea towels in my um pants that, you know, because when I turned, they'd sort of like spin out.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought that was quite cool.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: I was seven when I saw um a bit of Rudolf Nurev doing Don Quixote.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's when I went, okay, that's what I want to do.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it took me a year for to get my parents to agree and send me to a ballet class, and also for them to find a teacher who wanted to teach a little boy too, because it wasn't so common in you know, 1970.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so that's how I started really.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, but it wasn't really until I guess I was probably 10, 11 that I realized that maybe this could be a career.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting too, because you have to be brave and and very strong in yourself at such a young age, but also your parents had to have faith and and go, you know, they it's not like they, as you said, it did take a year to to I suppose convince them.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it is, do you think that's something that you you mentioned?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, lots of people would see, you know, the neureev and go, wow, that's amazing, or we all watch the movies, or the fact that it triggered something so extraordinary in you.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Do you believe that is nature or nurture, or what?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: What what do you think that is?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: For me, it felt very much like nature.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: I just once I saw ballet and once I started training, it was like, oh my god, my whole world changed.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly what I wanted to do.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I never really had another plan B.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, for as long as I realized that I could actually be a dancer and have a career in that, that was it.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: That was all I wanted to do.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I guess for me, it was someone who Dave Margaret Scott, who was actually the woman who found me in Perth and I I joined the Australian Ballet School.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, first of all, I was found when I was 15, but my parents didn't let me go till I was 17.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and she saw me.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if I didn't dance, I probably would explode.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's exactly how it felt.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was like it was so much a part of who I was.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Without doing it, I I don't think I could have, I could have, you know, it was my thing.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: That was my whole sort of experience of myself was dancing.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it was it was um great to actually find that thing that I love so young.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think also the fact you're in Perth and you're, you know, we're in a sort of, it wasn't like you're in the hub of Melbourne and Sydney.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't like you were exposed to that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so to have the faith, I suppose, do you think that's the essence of?
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've interviewed and I work with a lot of creatives, and that I suppose faith and dedication and single-mindedness in the face of a world that often doesn't cultivate it, particularly in young boys, it's it's quite challenging.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that you found, you know, before you left Perth?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Was that something that you were confronted with?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, look, I mean, you know, I went in after I did my first ballet class and I was in grade two at school, and I, you know, we used to have news in those days where you'd go in and say, you know, what you'd done, or, you know, you know, all sorts of things.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And my news this morning was that I went to ballet class, and it was sort of the beginning of the rest of my life at school, which wasn't so great because, you know, I was I was sort of seen as the outcast.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was the, you know, the weird kid because I wanted to be a ballet dancer.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: So in some ways, it taught me a lot about resilience because it would have been easy just to go, oh, okay, that's not what you do, so you just sort of walk away from it.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: But I was so passionate about it, I knew that's I didn't care actually what anyone else thought.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, a lot of the girls in the class were great and really supportive.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: But sadly, two years later I went to an all-boys school, all boys Catholic school.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it was like disappointing.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: That would have I was about to say, it's interesting your parents made that choice, but maybe there was that was an educational decision.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: It it was more the the family.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, my my mother specifically was very, you know, devoted Catholic woman, wanted all of us kids to be, you know, educated in that system.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, in those days, you know, co-education stopped at grade four and you know, supposedly through to year 12.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: But luckily in year 11 and 12, the girls came back.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a bit of a reprieve.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: But those middle years were just horrific.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, pretty awful, actually.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: So just a little snapshot of what an example of what that experience was like.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's really comforting also for other people listening who have children who would like to have creative pursuits.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it is a different world, but it is still a challenging world for creatives, particularly in that industry.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: What sort of experiences did you have and how did you deal with them or how did you combat that?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I think I was really bad at sport.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if I had been one of those kids that was, you know, could play football and cricket and do ballet, it might have been easier.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: But I was terrible at all the other sporting achievements.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: So that was sort of a double whammy.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it was just being sort of othered really all the way through school.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I was older, you know, a poof and a, you know, fairy and a faggot before I even knew sexuality and what that meant, you know, and it was only learning behavior from, you know, probably their, you know, families, the boys' families, you know, there was very strong, sort of fairly binary, you know, things for boys and girls in those days, you know.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: And if you stepped outside those very tight um boundaries, you were seen as, you know, weird or strange or just didn't belong.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, in those primary school years, especially, you're desperate to belong.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you just want to be a part of the crew.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, it was pretty weird.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I also think, as I say, I think that taught me that if I was going to do this, I had to be committed to it.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I would go to my ballet class pretty much every day, and it would be I was in the alternative universe.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like everyone loved dancing, everyone was friendly, you know, and I was the only boy, so I was a bit of a novelty in a way.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: So um, you know, it wasn't all bad, but school was pretty terrible.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the good thing that came out of that, though, is I was sort of in the outcast group, who were usually quite the clever group.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I think I learned more um with my friends who would sort of basically tutor me.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: I was always about a 65% student, you know, I wasn't terrible, but I wasn't brilliant.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I got elevated through that whole experience to be sort of more like a, you know, 75 to 85% student because I had this, you know, little group of friends that used to be really brainy.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you the other thing that I think is interesting about that is really when you get out into the big wide world, it matters in some instances, but not clearly.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't care really when you went to ballet school at 15.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, once you got it, nobody cared whether you had a 65 or 75.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's also interesting because, you know, I mean, I was a creative and I work with a lot of creatives, and the the notion of how you're measured at a very young age is really interesting, isn't it?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that in itself says something about the the sort of parochialism of the education system, but that's a whole other story.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point, you know, it's wonderful to note that, you know, you stayed true and dedicated and look where you landed, like quite literally landed.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you pirouetted and landed, right?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it was, you know, it's very inspirational.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so so in terms of that nature nurture discussion, I find that interesting too, because you know, you're there's conviction, there's, you know, that what they say, it's 95% um persistence.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't have that passion and that drive, where what were things around you?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: You talk about saying Urayev, but be it once you moved into that next phase, what was it, who and what did you see that really was made you clear that this was doable?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: I had a great teacher.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um she wasn't probably the greatest dance teacher, but she taught me self-discipline and you know, really focusing on something and being good at it.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think she also realized that as a boy learning dance, you know, it was I was always going to have to get sort of out of the, you know, the sort of studio system, I guess, you know, that sort of um dance for enjoyment and really be a bit more vocational about it.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: So really from a very early age, she would send me along to do classes with, you know, any guest teachers, especially male teachers like Martin Rubenstein, who was a great RAD or Academy of Dance examiner, and and he did summer schools, and I used to always get sent to those.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: So she she really had a view that, you know, if I was going to be successful, and obviously she must have seen some sort of talent there, that I needed to get out of what I was doing just, you know, with her and have a bit of a broader experience.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess she was a huge mentor to all of that.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then really it wasn't until I got to Melbourne, you know, just turned 17, finished school, that the whole wide world of ballet opened up.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was at the ballet center in Melbourne, you know, the company were rehearsing there, you know, all of these icons that I'd watched on stage were all of a sudden in the other end of the corridor.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it was just like I was in like this um, yeah, this incredible time of just myth busting.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: Everything that I thought was, you know, a ballet career just completely changed.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I saw what the reality of it was, which was probably even more exciting.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: And just, you know, to being myself well beyond what I ever expected I could do was, yeah, it was amazing.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And also, I think to your point, then the mentorship is a big part of ballet, it's a big part of the arts anyway, but but clearly that was pivotal for you because somebody saw your talent, saw your dedication, and swooped you up and uh and and gave you the opportunity.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, had you not wanted to embrace that, there's no, you know, that doesn't help.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: But in this instance, there seems to be, I mean, it's a very um beautiful and but also a very serious school to be part of, isn't it?
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you really need somebody to be looking out for you and to be guiding you because otherwise I can imagine it's quite daunting.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: And look, you know, there were three sort of very important women, I guess, at that point in my life.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Dame Margaret Scott, who was the founder of director of the Australian Ballet School, who who basically, you know, she kept an eye on me even for the two years I was in Perth after I auditioned and my parents said that I weren't wasn't allowed to go.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, she I joined the the school, she was the director, and you know, she really looked out for I mean, all of us, but I mean, she especially was, you know, she for me, she was a great um mentor and continued actually on um after I, you know, while I was dancing and then as director, she was there as a great sort of uh incredible font of knowledge.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the second was um Dame Peggy Van Prague, she was the founding director of the Australian Ballet, and she worked with us a lot when we were when I was at the school, she staged her Giselle and um she picked me out to be you know quite a lead role as just a you know school student, so uh and she was also there along that path.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the third was of course Manny Gilgird, who was the director of the Australian Ballet when I joined the company.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I had these three incredible, you know, female, yeah, they were like warriors.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Guiding lines.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, warriors, absolutely.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so that that was, I mean, how I sort of I think achieved, you know, so much in a relatively short amount of time just by these incredible, um, strong and knowledgeable women.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because I one of my questions, I was going to say from Gilgord to Fontaine, you've worked with some of the best danced with some of the greatest dancers of our time, and who were some of your favourites.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you've just actually mentioned, well, they were mentors, but but there must have been others along the way that you loved dancing with and that you felt connected with and felt inspired by.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Any that stand out over and above those three who were clearly mentor roles?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, look, I think for, I mean, I was incredibly blessed to have um incredible women who I danced with all the way through my career.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Elizabeth Tui, who I went to the ballet competition in Moscow, was an incredible partner and she taught me a lot about how to be a partner, actually.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: Fiona Tonkin, who is an amazing ballerina, um, she was sort of ahead of me, but I was sort of, you know, put with her quite a lot.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, for periods of time, um, Miranda Coney, Vicky Attard, um, I danced with Lisa Balti a bit, um, Linda Ridgeway, beautiful dancer who I danced with a lot.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: All of these incredible people who, you know, you learn so much from your partners.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: And and then later on in my career, I got to dance with Madeline Eastow, and she was a young, young dancer, and I was the old sort of, you know, experienced one.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean, it was always such a pleasure to find that connection with someone on stage.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and you, I I don't think you ever stop learning.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, even as a director, I learned from the dancers.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think also the wonderful collegiate nature of what you do.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's always this great sense of, while you, you know, you obviously have your your mainstays and people who are, you know, play the main roles.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: What I love about the ballet is the way that you, you know, there's a sense of that the production and and the collegiate nature of it.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: How much did that feed your soul?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly, it would have.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, so much.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it is the the combination of all the arts, really.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, you have the design in the visual sort of costume.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: You have the storytelling through, you know, the drama of these various stories.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the music.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the music is such a huge part of what we do.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it is a very collaborative art form.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you just meet so many wonderful people to inspire and lift you up.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what a way to spend your life.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm assuming that, you know, while you know, ballet is reasonably funded, it must be quite challenging in terms of making sure that the the artists are rewarded and supported.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Was that something you always felt that you could earn a living and make a life for yourself beyond your pursuit?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know that's probably an interesting question in light of all the actors that are, you know, right now, like that's another story.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, is it I I think, you know, I think dance is when you when you get into a company, especially in ballet, it's quite different sometimes in commercial dance or or contemporary dance, but in a ballet company, you know, there is a progression, and you know, it's not a long career, but it's a career that, you know, once you get into a company, there is a sort of a progression path.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I mean, I was very lucky.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I worked in ballet until I'm still working in ballet, I guess, but you know, I danced until I was 37, and then I was a director until I was 57.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I you know, I kept on saying to my dad, who thought that I was never going to earn a proper living, um, you know, I'm still working, dad, and I'm in my 50s, you know.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: It is a very good point because I think that's part of the cynicism around um art forms like that.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: How do how does, you know, how will my son, how am I make a living?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: But if you love what you do and you're good at it, you're saying there's a trajectory that is quite viable.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, as they say, when you do something you love, it doesn't feel like work.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it feels like you're fulfilling your passion.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, people pay you to do it, which is amazing.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it it it sort of helps in that sort of even on the bad days when things are going wrong, or you know, you've got an injury, or you know, you just feel a bit rotten, fundamentally you go, but actually I chose this.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not doing this just to pay the you know, the mortgage.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: I'm actually doing this because I love it.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it's it's always that impetus that I think is so great when you work, you know, especially if you work in the arts, because you know, you don't necessarily get the sort of the the big paychecks, like if you're, you know, financier or a you know, a lawyer or a doctor, but you get so much more because you're doing something that's you know, that's your passion.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think also you just get to entertain people in the most beautiful way.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And there's just nothing greater than that um, you know, being at the ballet and and the romance of it and the history of it and all of that um for the audience.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose it's a beautiful way to be a gift giver constantly, really, to the people that come to see you.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of longevity, clearly, as you mentioned, you know, if you can adapt as you have to that next phase and your book reflects on that, do you think that can be a deterrent sometimes for people because they think that there's no sort of longevity?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think for more so for parents than than the actual dancers themselves.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: But look, you know, sometimes people do dance, you know, for a period of time and go, okay, I've done that now.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: I want to, you know, get a proper job.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I actually think it depends on the individuals.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, these days when people jump from job to job, you know, it's not like in the old days where you join a firm and you're there for 40 years.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, people have, you know, seven or eight careers in their life, you know, working life.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the same for dancers.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it could just be one of your careers, but even within that, you know, you can there's a whole lot of other job opportunities in the theater, like, you know, you could be a stage manager, you could be a theater designer, you could be a ballet staff member.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's there's a huge amount of opportunities even within the art form once you stop dancing, because you know, a a dance career does have a use by date, and you know, you're not going to be dancing in your 50s or 60s.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, but I I still think it's a great um opportunity while you're dancing to be looking around you, going, okay, which part of this is exciting to me and you know, where do I want to head?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and certainly um, while you've got the energy and the focus and the physicality to do something so wonderful, in terms of funding and support for the ballet, clearly it's an ancient and historic and long term art form that has been around for a long time.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: But with the advent of so many competing media artistic options.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Options for people.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think the next gen is responding?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: And how is that impacting the viability of the Australian ballet?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or not just the Australian ballet, but in particular?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I think there are so many more options now.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, dancers often don't necessarily go straight to ballet as their first option.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, especially for the men.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, often, you know, the guys go through maybe learning a bit of tap or jazz or hip-hop.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, they're the ballet teacher sees them and goes, right, I want you, you know.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: And sort of pulled into the ballet world.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: But I do think that there is a lot of different options now.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: And ballet is a very niche style of dancing, but it has a fairly universal appeal.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it is a career that is quite transportable.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: If you, you know, if you have a ability, um, you know, you could dance all around the world and you could be in different companies learning different languages, you know, having different cultural experiences.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a great, you know, plus.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that is a huge plus, yeah, the international adaptability.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like it's a language in itself.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: But look, you know, there's also great merit in staying in one company and really becoming a part of that sort of, you know, encasing yourself in that culture of that particular company.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so you become almost like a specialist in that repertoire, that style of dancing.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, it's there's so many different ways.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as an individual dancer, you find the place that works for you, and then, you know, if that place stops working for you, you find somewhere else, or you, you know, you go off on another path.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Dancers are incredibly self-disciplined and they're usually fairly focused on being very good at what they do.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: So once they decide not to dance, you know, people go into a multitude of really interesting and diverse um jobs and and careers that, you know, I've always said to you know, future employers, because you know, I've often been asked to be a referee, if you employ a dancer, you will employ someone who will work incredibly hard and being wonderfully disciplined in whichever area of endeavor they've decided to join.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really interesting point and a very valid one.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of the actual company itself and in terms of audiences and getting audiences and funding and support, how's that changed?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I think the thing that's changed a lot is, you know, when I first joined the company, I think, you know, there was most of the support came from the government.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um then, you know, the second probably avenue for revenue was um the box office.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and now, you know, the box office is only really covering half of the cost of running, you know, a ballet company.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the government, you know, funding has been you know stable, but not necessarily living up to cost of living pressure.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the most interesting thing in the 80s was corporate, you know, sponsorship, which became huge.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, more recently is uh philanthropy, you know, private donors that actually make a huge difference to the viability of ballet companies, you know, in the 21st century.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's come from the American model, but equally from the Europeans.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you look back at the beginning of ballet, it was very much patrons, just supported by exactly patrons and and and royalty.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: So we're actually sort of you know back to the future with you know private donors and philanthropists actually supporting, you know, the arts in the way that's you know quite substantial.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's right.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: It is almost like a full circle, isn't it?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's where it all started.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it was the essence of how ballet came to be and and many art forms.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that the next generation fully appreciates the beauty and the power of the ballet?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that getting younger people bums on seats, so to speak?
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: How's that going?
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love the ballet, so but I've grown up with it and I'm more like your gin, you know, we're more sort of, but I'd be interested, you know, I'm thinking, you know, I've taken my daughter, I take, you know, they all they there are a lot of uh young girls that do love the ballet and men, but what what's the what are the stats saying?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or what is it, what do you know what the what's it showing?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think over many years, or my experience anyway, in the ballet company, there's always been this dialogue about, you know, the ballet audience is dying, but actually there's a life cycle to, especially the ballet audience, I think, you know, like you're saying, people, you know, may be involved with it as young children, and then, you know, often you lose those people, you know, once they go to university and then have families, and you know, there's that sort of period where they're completely obsessed by everything else.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then often people get to that point where they become uh empty nesters, you know, in their sort of 50s, and and then, you know, you get them back, but they're the ones that then introduce it to the next generation, either their children or their grandchildren.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so the circle continues to revolve.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: But having said that, you know, um, you have to continually look at making sure that the ballet is relevant to the audience of that moment.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can't just sit back and do Nutcracker and Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake for the rest of your life, because otherwise it will be a you know a diminishing sort of um funnel of people that come.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: You have to constantly be looking at, you know, things that are current, looking at other things that people are doing.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's what ballet has done over its history.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we think of you know character dances in ballets as being traditional, but that was because that was what's you know, the the street dance was of its time.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, and you look at contemporary ballet and it draws from you know all those street um influences and fashion and you know uh sort of musical taste.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what sort of evolves, you know, ballet into its next, you know, iteration.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think creativity is the thing that will keep ballet alive and also being creative but relevant to the people your audience.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, what an audience in the 19th century love doing, which was going to the theater for three hours and sitting through a very long ballet, does not sit so well in a, you know, a very busy younger audience who are maybe up for a breakfast meeting at 6 a.m.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they want a an hour and a half, you know, straight through, um take me on a journey and then you know, drop me off at the um exit point so I can get home and still, you know, have eight hours sleep before I get into my breakfast meeting.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: But you're right.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's very important.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be, and and hearing that is really important, I think, because it does um it is important to change that lens so that people know that that is the way that the creators and the directors are thinking.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're not just trying to recreate.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the the the audiences change dramatically, and if they don't adapt, then you're not gonna get the the audiences.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's when you become that dusty, dusty old art form that people don't want to go to.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not happening, not happening with the ballet.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and from your perspective, in terms of the best ballet schools or schools that that you know you you see as really pivotal to somebody's career, do you think people need to go overseas if they're going to really thrive?
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you think the Australian ballet can carry them far enough here?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think finally in Australia, we've actually realized that you don't need to validate somehow yourself by going overseas.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, people still love doing that.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, there's great places to train all around the world.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: But I think, you know, the Australian Ballet School and, you know, a lot of the schools around Australia are equal to the task of anything that you would gain overseas.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I was lucky enough as a young dancer to be sent on scholarships to, I mean, to New York when I first joined the company and spent three weeks there.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I did go and train in a lot of different places, but I always came back because, you know, for me, the Australian ballet was my ultimate, you know, my ultimate dream.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: And and, you know, I was lucky enough to dance with a lot of different companies.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I think when you find the place you want to be, then, you know, that's you you feel, you know, your people, your place, your tribe, you know.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Your tribe, yeah.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's true.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not necessarily the same for all people.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, lots of Australians want to dance, you know, in Paris or London or New York, and that's great.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for me, it was just I was I was an Aussie.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: I really wanted to be at home.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of your um presence, I mean, one of the things that I find interesting, particularly reading the first book and the second, just talking about the way also that things have changed in terms of the way the LGBQTI community is embraced.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Look at your trajectory, you know, if you look at the arch from when you started and how it was just this quiet, brooding, cautious, fearful to some degree state of mind to, hey, you know, look, the world is embraced, welcomed, and come to understand a lot more.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is that your perspective?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think how's that changed life for you and for the people that you do know?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I feel so lucky to have grown up in the period of time that I have.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, there were challenges in the 80s, um, especially with, you know, HIV AIDS and and you know, all of those things, which we really challenged the arts community.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, you know, I was talking to my partner Wesley, and we were like going, you know, gay is so normal now.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like so funny.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, because I grew up like you, you know, I mean, I remember the AIDS epidemic, I remember the pressure, I remember all of the and so many of the people that I was I was working with were gay, and it was just not a thing, but it was a thing then compared to what it is now, it seems just so normalized, as much as we hate that expression.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think look, you know, what people grapple with now probably is their gender and gender identity and you know, gender fluidity.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think that's probably still, you know, that area where I guess when you are not straight in a straight world that that was sort of unusual.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you know, with the marriage equality and all of the sort of, you know, the equalities for um, you know, people of different, you know, sexual orientation, I still think gender is probably the place that, you know, there's still questions and people still have some sort of, I don't know, issues about.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I think, you know, that will change too.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, see where we've come in the last 40 years, where we'll be in the next 40 years will probably be, you know, completely fine with all of that as well.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I think arts have a have a way to lead in that, and I think they always have.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: I say in the book that, you know, for for gay people, especially gay men, you know, the ballet company was a welcoming and a safe place.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Not to say that all the men were gay.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, when I joined the company, it was very much a you know, 60-40 split with, you know, more straight men than gay men.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it that that sort of wafts and changes depending on, you know, the the attitudes or whatever.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: But it's it's also just a very welcoming, and as you say, you know, um, people feel safe and and you know, they can be themselves there.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think what will be interesting is if suddenly somebody, I mean, I'd be very interested, and we could open a whole thing here, but you know, imagine if you want if there's a transgender who wants to play play Giselle.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: How you know what what what's happening?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is is this being discussed within the ballet community?
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: Look, there are there are transgender dancers doing roles that you know is not their sort of gender stereotype already.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a brilliant thing, you know.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and I think the thing with ballets, I mean, the roles are fairly binary, I've got to say, you know, it's they're pretty binary and the prick.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, yeah, that's right.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_02: So but it is, I mean, and I guess it's that thing that you, you know, that we discuss.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, contemporary choreography, it's a different thing, you know, women partner women, women partner men, men partner men, you know, it's it's much more sort of fluid.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but those 19th century classics are sort of a little bit more sort of of their period, and yet, you know, people are starting, you know, there's yeah, and there, you know, there is this sort of gender fluidity that's you know just starting to emerge.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, it's all about talent as well.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you have to be able to do those things, you know.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: If you are uh, you know, someone who's born, you know, as a male but you know identifies as a woman, you have to be able to have that sort of ability to dance on, you know, point on your toes, which most men don't do.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to be able to be of a certain build that you know you can still be partnered if you want to do those traditional roles, because you know, someone who's six foot two is not going to find a partner who's gonna be able to lift them and and do all of that sort of partnering.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I I think you know it's all gonna morph and change with with time, and you know, and and that's what ballet does too.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's can be quite elastic.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, and also trailblazing.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I like I think you're right.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think because often it's in the arts that we see transformation and we see barriers broken, which is why it's so wonderful that someone like yourself has really carved an incredible career as reflected in your new book.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we're just so grateful that you've come on to talk about the extraordinary world of ballet and to give us an insight into how you started, where you've landed, and where you're going.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all very, very exciting and very, very informative too.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so thank you, David, so much for joining us on the What I've Lip Podcast.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: And your book is available in bookstores and online, and uh, which I mentioned in the intro, and I look forward to seeing what you do next.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Deb.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's been such a joy talking to you.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: It has, it's been a ball.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: I could talk for a lot longer, but I won't.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, David.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Debbie.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Love death.