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Social media giants should be worried · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:24
  Oh, yes, our friends over at Meta.
• 0:27
  They had a oh, was it a tough week last week or what?
• 0:32
  I want to dive into it a little bit.
• 0:34
  I do.
• 0:35
  We we've got a because it was just back to back smackdown.
• 0:39
  Meta was handed a back to back smack down.
• 0:43
  And Google was a part of it.
• 0:45
  Google got in on the action.
• 0:48
  What does it mean?
• 0:49
  What and not only what does it mean, but what future landslides is this going to create?
• 0:59
  Because you know there's a line of people.
• 1:02
  There is a host of people in line, itching, itching to get a piece of the meta pie here.
• 1:08
  And they've got to be thinking, if I can I mean, if I can show some some damage brought to me by Meta.
• 1:17
  I mean, there's there's a line.
• 1:18
  I'm telling you, Meta might be in trouble.
• 1:23
  Meta might be in trouble.
• 1:25
  So we're gonna look at that.
• 1:26
  Both the Mexico case, or I'm sorry, New Mexico and the Los Angeles case.
• 1:32
  Want to get into it.
• 1:33
  Also, last week we we were having this conversation on technology and what would it possibly look like if teachers were replaced by screens.
• 1:49
  And and that conversation was just getting good, but we weren't able to really finish it.
• 1:55
  So I would kind of like to revisit that a little bit today, and in conjunction with what's happening over there at Meta.
• 2:04
  And you know, there's there's some other things.
• 2:05
  There's an interesting piece from a fellow out of the epoch times talking about live symphonies, which you know.
• 2:14
  I've I have fallen in in love with the symphony as of late, just fallen in love with it.
• 2:21
  Do you know what I what I can't get enough of?
• 2:24
  Uh uh I'll have kids in in my office, you know, at any given time.
• 2:30
  Um, and not necessarily because they're in trouble, but you know, they're in their we're having conversations or you know, whatever.
• 2:39
  But I'll I'll be playing in the background.
• 2:42
  Uh Mozart's requiem.
• 2:44
  The requiem.
• 2:47
  And they'll look at me like what's that where's that opera coming from?
• 2:55
  Just because I I've fallen in love with it.
• 2:59
  I I can't get enough of it.
• 3:00
  I truly I can't.
• 3:02
  I'm I'm so um mesmerized by it.
• 3:05
  And this piece here in the epoch times, he asks an important question.
• 3:10
  Is live symphony performance going away?
• 3:15
  And my only hope is that no, it's not, it's not going away.
• 3:19
  And I I would love to go to a live symphony.
• 3:23
  That is that's one of my objectives, I think.
• 3:27
  For the it's a goal that I've got the next 12 months.
• 3:31
  I want to I want to sit in on a live symphony.
• 3:34
  That's where we're going with this.
• 3:36
  So I want to look at that.
• 3:38
  Also, we're we just got some fun planned for today.
• 3:41
  Where we're gonna dive into it.
• 3:42
  I don't know, maybe we might get to a history class.
• 3:45
  I don't know.
• 3:46
  We'll see how we'll see how the day goes.
• 3:48
  I know I normally start history first, but I mean, there's some other stuff I want to get into.
• 3:53
  So we may get to history class before the day is done.
• 3:56
  But but before we do anything, my friends, I implore you, I encourage you, I remind you that this summer we are going to be celebrating 250 years of American independence, and we're gonna be celebrating in style in Nashville, Tennessee July 2nd, July 3rd, July 4th.
• 4:19
  And there is, I've got a special invitation for you.
• 4:23
  There is an offer right here on the table for you.
• 4:27
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• 4:35
  D-E-A-N, code Dean, go to AmericaOut Loud.news slash Nashville, and use code Dean for 25% off.
• 4:46
  I mean, it's it is a great discount, and the event itself is going to be more than great.
• 4:56
  You're gonna hear world-class speakers, you're going to experience world-class entertainment.
• 5:04
  You're going to enjoy world-class food.
• 5:07
  You're going to be with like-minded patriots celebrating 250 years of America and the fireworks.
• 5:22
  Uh so join us.
• 5:24
  Join us in Nashville.
• 5:25
  Use code dean for 25% off.
• 5:28
  Go to AmericaOut Loud.com slash Nashville.
• 5:33
  And let's just let the good times roll because they are.
• 5:36
  They're gonna roll with a vengeance.
• 5:39
  Okay, let's let's look at what happened to Meta.
• 5:43
  I mean, last week, Meta took it to the throat.
• 5:48
  Just a flat out throat punch.
• 5:51
  Well, we'll go to New Mexico first.
• 5:54
  The jury there found that Meta, which of course we know is the parent company of Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp.
• 6:04
  Uh Zuckerberg and the gang over there at Meta.
• 6:07
  This jury found that they violated a state law by failing to fully disclose risks to children on its social media platform.
• 6:17
  Uh Raul Torres, the New Mexico attorney general brought the case following an undercover operation where adults were able to send inappropriate sexual material to agents posing as underage users.
• 6:36
  Users, but by the way, remember we we brought that word up last week in our conversation that there are only two industries that refer to their clientele as users, the drug industry and uh this industry right here, the the the software industry, the social media industry slash software.
• 6:59
  Uh users, that's what we are to them, but we're just users, addicted users.
• 7:05
  All right, we'll get into that though in the in the California piece.
• 7:09
  Uh so attorney general Raul Torres alleged that Meta violated New Mexico's Unfair Practices Act because Meta knew about possible danger to children, but hid that from the public.
• 7:28
  Here's what he said.
• 7:30
  Uh what this case is about is one of the biggest tech companies in the world taking advantage of New Mexico teens.
• 7:39
  The jury found that Meta breached the state's consumer protection law and imposed a 375 million dollar fine.
• 7:49
  375 million dollar fine.
• 7:54
  Who gets that money?
• 7:56
  But but if it's a fine, who are they paying the fine to?
• 7:59
  Is that going to the state?
• 8:01
  Inquiring mind here want to know.
• 8:03
  Prosecutor Linda Singer had asked the jury to find the social media giant two billion.
• 8:09
  Holy smokes.
• 8:10
  Singer was going for it.
• 8:13
  She said safety issues on Meta's platforms weren't mistakes.
• 8:17
  They were a product of a corporate philosophy that chose growth and engagement over children's safety.
• 8:26
  And young people in this state and around the country have borne the cost.
• 8:33
  Okay.
• 8:46
  But he said the company cannot intercept every harmful interaction.
• 8:51
  No one can with billions of pieces of content every day.
• 8:55
  Even the best system cannot catch all of it, he said.
• 9:00
  Huff told jurors the company has an interest in protecting users.
• 9:04
  There we are again.
• 9:06
  There's that word users.
• 9:08
  Company has an interest in protecting users, and that safety protocols are good for business.
• 9:21
  He said.
• 10:00
  About the challenges of identifying and removing bad actors or harmful content.
• 10:05
  We will continue to defend ourselves vigorously, and we remain confident in our record of protecting teens online and our record of protecting our users.
• 10:15
  We have to protect our users.
• 10:18
  Meta has defended itself by saying that the First Amendment of the Constitution and Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act protect the company from liability.
• 10:31
  Section 230 says interactive computer service.
• 10:36
  Uh, and providers of this of this service usually cannot be held liable for content published on their platforms by third parties.
• 10:44
  Although the statute does not grant blanket immunity.
• 10:54
  Last August, two senators called for the company to be investigated after Reuters reported it had viewed and an internal policy document that said Meta's AI tools are allowed to engage a child in conversations that are romantic or sensual.
• 11:15
  If you are finding internal policy documents that allow for Meta's AI tools to do that, uh, then you know, I I think we've got something here.
• 11:30
  And the jury obviously felt that way.
• 11:33
  The jury obviously felt like like there was there was something here.
• 11:37
  It seems that if you run a social media company, and if you you really cared about kids, and you cared about protecting kids, that your internal policy documents would say something to the effect that we do not want our AI tools to have the ability to engage a child in conversations that are romantic andor sensual.
• 12:05
  I mean, it seems like that that would be what one of the first things if you were interested.
• 12:09
  I'm just putting this out there.
• 12:10
  If you were interested in really truly protecting kids, then your internal policy documents would state that.
• 12:18
  Would they not?
• 12:20
  But if they're stating the opposite, then you know, we've got issues.
• 12:26
  And apparently, New Mexico here, this jury discovered the same.
• 12:31
  I want to know who they're paying this 375 million to.
• 12:36
  All right.
• 12:36
  Now, of course, they're appealing, and it'll go to a, you know, a court of appeals, and it's they're gonna get some Obama judge who who is, you know, he's gonna be like, oh, yeah, we're gonna throw this.
• 12:49
  I mean, probably.
• 12:51
  And then we'll see what happens when it gets to the Supreme Court.
• 12:54
  It will make its way to the Supreme Court.
• 12:56
  Um, I'm sure of it.
• 12:58
  Um because they're they're going to win on appeal.
• 13:02
  Look at me, you're just out here predicting what's going to happen in the legal landscape.
• 13:06
  You know what?
• 13:07
  You can almost determine if they can find themselves one of the appellate districts that are our very left.
• 13:17
  You know, you can see which way this thing is going to go, which way it's going to shape out.
• 13:22
  But when it gets to the Supreme Court, then really all bets are off because you've got some, you got some wild cards on that bench, and they have been appointed by Trump.
• 13:35
  Trump just said, let's um, let's mix it up.
• 13:39
  Let's get some wild cards on.
• 13:41
  You know, I don't think he knew that they were um that they had the potential to be rogue actors.
• 13:48
  Look at me out here calling Supreme Court justices rogue actors.
• 13:51
  I mean, uh I'm talking about rogue actors from the sense that uh that they don't appear to be conservative in in certain areas and certain conversations and certain decisions.
• 14:06
  They are going rogue from the conservative plantation, as it were, from the conservative ranch, as it were, from the hollowed grounds of conservatism, as it were.
• 14:22
  I don't think he knew that going into it, you know, when he had his list of names.
• 14:28
  I don't, you know, uh, I mean, it's unfortunate.
• 14:32
  It it truly is.
• 14:33
  It's unfortunate.
• 14:34
  Now, they've made some good decisions, but not all the time.
• 14:38
  Not all of their decisions have been absolutely stellar.
• 14:41
  So we're we're gonna see.
• 14:43
  We're gonna see what happens when when we get there.
• 14:46
  So that was New Mexico.
• 14:48
  Uh, but uh, California, holy smokes.
• 14:52
  This this decision in California.
• 14:55
  Uh, the jury found Meta and Google liable and social media addiction trial.
• 15:02
  Now, this one, this the social media addiction case.
• 15:06
  This is where holy smokes, things are gonna get interesting.
• 15:10
  Uh, I mean, this is going to open up the door for everybody and their brother to get in line and get a piece of the Google slash meta pie.
• 15:20
  That's what we're gonna see.
• 15:21
  And and how is it going to change the social media landscape?
• 15:27
  This is this is going to be interesting, and we're gonna we're gonna keep our eye on it.
• 15:32
  All right, I'm looking at the clock.
• 15:34
  Speaking of keeping our eye on things, and uh we're we're coming up against the break.
• 15:40
  So let's pause here for a minute, and then we'll pick up the the California case when we come out of the other side of the break.
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• 17:19
  All right, on the other side of this break, we're gonna take a visit to Los Angeles, and we're going to uh detail and analyze the throat punch that the LA jury gave to Meta.
• 17:31
  We'll pick it up on the other side.
• 17:34
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• 21:23
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• 21:26
  All right, uh, let's go to last Los Angeles, Los Angeles.
• 21:31
  And let's let's take a look at round two.
• 21:34
  Meta was Meta was in a butt I don't know.
• 21:37
  I guess it wouldn't be a two-round fight.
• 21:39
  It was it was two distinct fights.
• 21:42
  And Meta just got got it handed to him.
• 21:46
  So this was I feel like these two days were back to back.
• 21:49
  I think New Mexico came out uh on the 24th of March.
• 21:54
  I think Los Angeles came out on the 25th, and while New Mexico was a bigger dollar amount, they were ordered to pay 375 million in fines.
• 22:09
  I think the Los Angeles verdict opens up more of a door.
• 22:15
  I think the Los Angeles verdict might actually be more substantial because it it found that Google and Meta were both liable in damages that related to uh social media addiction.
• 22:34
  Now, again, the amount wasn't as great, six million, six million in damages, and then there was an additional three million in punitive damages, which I think that that three million goes in a lump sum to KJM.
• 22:49
  KJM here is the 20-year-old plaintiff.
• 22:53
  Uh Kaylee GM.
• 22:55
  And so we're calling her KGM.
• 22:58
  She uh she was pitted against the two tech giants, Google and Meta.
• 23:05
  And the jury was being asked to consider whether the companies could be held accountable for psychological harms that KJM suffered as a result of an addiction to their apps, YouTube and Instagram.
• 23:20
  She claims she was addicted, couldn't couldn't, couldn't get off.
• 23:26
  Uh of the three million and uh and the three million in um compensatory damages Meta was ordered to pay 70%, and Google was ordered to pay 30%, and then the jury awarded another three million in punitive damages, including 2.1 from Meta and 900 from Google.
• 23:54
  All right, so it looks like it looks like the six million is total, and the in half of that in punitive damages looks like it's gonna be a lump sum.
• 24:06
  All right, so I initially I thought that it was six million and then maybe an additional three million for punitive, but that three million looks like it's a part of the six.
• 24:18
  Uh the verdict here came after nine days of deliberation.
• 24:23
  And and the interesting thing, the thing that we've got to keep her eye out on, and that certainly Meta and Google have to keep their eye out on is the stage was set here.
• 24:35
  The stage was set for thousands of related lawsuits, brought by parents, children, school districts, attorneys general across the country.
• 24:45
  I mean, they're all in line here.
• 24:47
  They're like, okay, let's go.
• 24:50
  Uh, I mean, I, you know, I'm I suffered some addiction, so I I need to I need to get in line here.
• 24:57
  Uh, this could create a blueprint for how to argue future claims and what types of damages might be sought.
• 25:08
  Snap Snapchat and TikTok, according to this article, they were also defendants in the lawsuit, but perhaps wisely on their part, they settled before trial began.
• 25:18
  They're like, we see where this thing is going.
• 25:21
  Let's settle right now.
• 25:23
  Let's let's settle for a portion.
• 25:25
  That's and let's just get get out of this thing.
• 25:29
  Responding to the verdict.
• 25:31
  Uh, a meta spokesperson who those meta spokespeople, I'm telling you what, they had a busy week.
• 25:37
  And this one says we respectfully disagree with the verdict and are evaluating our legal options.
• 25:44
  You better believe you are.
• 25:46
  You better believe you you respectfully disagree and you're evaluating your legal options.
• 25:52
  Google, on the other hand, remained silent.
• 25:55
  They did not offer a comment.
• 25:58
  Over five weeks, this is how how long the trial lasted.
• 26:02
  Attorneys sparred over competing narratives about the nature and impact of social media on young people's brains.
• 26:12
  And we have been uh diagnosing, as it were.
• 26:17
  We've been analyzing what takes place in the minds and brains of young people, those who spend a particular amount of time on social media.
• 26:26
  We've been looking at the research right alongside this um this trial here.
• 26:32
  And so five weeks, this has been on display.
• 26:35
  But but the other thing that was really explored in this trial is what company leaders knew and when they knew it, and what may have caused this young woman's years-long psychological turmoil.
• 26:51
  That's the key.
• 26:52
  What did they know?
• 26:53
  And when did they know it?
• 26:56
  Did they know that their apps were addictive?
• 26:59
  Did they create them to be addictive with all the bells and whistles and chimes and dopamine dumps of likes and hearts and well, of course they did.
• 27:12
  Of course, that's what they want people to keep coming back.
• 27:15
  Isn't that the point of having a product?
• 27:17
  Don't you want people to keep coming back to it?
• 27:21
  I mean, it seems to me that if you operate a social media company, you you want people to use your social media service.
• 27:29
  You want them to be users.
• 27:31
  Hence the name.
• 27:32
  I mean, it's that way for every product.
• 27:35
  I mean, could we start suing Coca-Cola for making their colas addictive because of the sugar content that's in it or Pepsi?
• 27:44
  I mean, this I don't uh I don't know.
• 27:47
  I I think I mean do the companies need to be liable for for what they they knew.
• 27:54
  I mean, if they knew they were they were harming kids, uh, you know, I mean, this was the debate against Philip Morrison the and the cigarette industry, you know, back in the day, you know, back in the late 80s and early 90s.
• 28:07
  And um, I mean, at some point, don't we take responsibility for ourselves?
• 28:14
  I I don't know.
• 28:17
  I don't mean to come in on one side or the other here, but I think self-responsibility, self-regulation, self-government.
• 28:28
  I I think all of that is important for us.
• 28:31
  I think it's something that we have to we have to align ourselves with.
• 28:36
  All right.
• 28:37
  So uh this the question.
• 28:42
  What did they know?
• 28:42
  When did they know it?
• 28:45
  So the jurors, according to this piece, uh, they sat stone faced throughout the testimony.
• 28:50
  They heard from therapists, adolescent addiction experts, executives, engineers, whistleblowers.
• 28:57
  I mean, they they went through the gamut.
• 29:00
  Uh lawyers picked apart KGM's lengthy medical records.
• 29:06
  They uh strolled through her sensitive family history.
• 29:10
  They debated whether her mental health struggles were likely caused or worsened by a social media addiction, or possibly by a genetic disposition to mental illness brought on by a chaotic family life marked by neglect and abuse.
• 29:27
  Wow, this I'm sure this family's history was dragged through it.
• 29:34
  Uh speaking to reporters after the trial, uh, two of the jurors who will remain nameless, described the painstaking process of reviewing the evidence in every direction, one said, and carefully considering the law before finally coming to a consensus.
• 29:56
  Uh, one juror who just said referred to herself as.
• 30:00
  As uh Victoria.
• 30:02
  She said, we looked at everything.
• 30:04
  We looked at everything Keely went through and what the process these platforms had in place that was going to prevent these harms.
• 30:16
  But apparently they discovered that there really wasn't much of a prevention there.
• 30:21
  They awarded the three million in um compensatory damages based on consideration of what someone like Cayley would have made throughout her lifetime.
• 30:33
  Victoria said we wanted them to feel it.
• 30:36
  We wanted them to realize this is not acceptable, acceptable, referring to Meta and Google.
• 30:41
  We wanted them to feel it.
• 30:43
  Do you think they're going to feel three million?
• 30:45
  I mean, really.
• 30:47
  Um she added that some jurors were hesitant to award more substantial punitive damages because it would be paid out to the plaintiff and a lump sum rather than put into a trust.
• 31:03
  The judge in this case instructed jurors to consider each company's net worth to be equal to its 2025 total stockholders equity.
• 31:12
  So these are the numbers.
• 31:18
  And uh Alphabet, which is Google's parent company was 415 billion.
• 31:26
  So really, do you think they felt six million?
• 31:29
  I mean, if their net worth, okay, if if meta's net worth is 217 billion, and uh Google's net worth is almost double that at 415.
• 31:42
  Do you think they're gonna billion with a B?
• 31:43
  Are they gonna feel six million dollars?
• 31:46
  We wanted them to feel it.
• 31:47
  We wanted them to realize this is not they don't feel it.
• 31:51
  This is this is chump change to them.
• 31:53
  I mean, and as I said, in the New Mexico case, 375 million, yeah, okay.
• 32:01
  I mean, they're gonna feel that a little differently than six million.
• 32:05
  Um, but the thing here is in this case is the door's gonna be opened up to Meta and Google and even Snapchat and TikTok and the others.
• 32:16
  They're all gonna.
• 32:17
  I mean, there's just people in line.
• 32:20
  They're in line.
• 32:21
  Uh, the plaintiff in this case testified that she began using YouTube at age six and Instagram at age nine.
• 32:31
  Uh, okay.
• 32:32
  So at this point, we just have to ask where where, you know, where's mom and dad?
• 32:39
  Now, we put YouTube in front of our kids' eyes at age six.
• 32:43
  We, you know, YouTube kids or YouTube, whatever.
• 32:46
  They're watching YouTube.
• 32:48
  Instagram at nine.
• 32:50
  I mean, if they have a phone, you know, they're they're about ready to, you know, go into middle school.
• 32:57
  And so they're given a phone.
• 32:58
  Guess what?
• 32:59
  They're on Instagram.
• 33:01
  They're on YouTube.
• 33:02
  They're on TikTok, they're on Snapchat.
• 33:05
  They're on all of it.
• 33:08
  Uh, this is this not good.
• 33:11
  I'm just telling you right now, it's not good.
• 33:14
  Uh KGM soon developed anxiety, depression, body dysmorphia, other disorders, she noted.
• 33:24
  She was hooked at times, spending 16 hours per day on the apps and returning even after incessant bullying.
• 33:34
  Even after being bullied on the on social media, she just kept coming back 16 hours.
• 33:40
  All right, so you're sleeping eight.
• 33:42
  That's every every waking moment that you have.
• 33:47
  You're you're on social media.
• 33:50
  Nine out of 10 U.S.
• 33:51
  teens use YouTube.
• 33:54
  73% said they're on YouTube every single day.
• 33:58
  These are uh, this is data that the attorneys used, and this is from the Pure Research Center out of a 2024 report.
• 34:08
  Worldwide, YouTube is the most watched app, followed closely by Instagram, with both estimated to have between two billion and three billion users.
• 34:20
  Ah, they're again, they're again users.
• 34:22
  We're all users, that's it.
• 34:25
  We're users.
• 34:27
  The high stakes trial unfolded during a critical moment when governments around the world are ramping up online safety laws or imposing blanket social media bans for younger users, and parents are calling for regulatory reform.
• 34:44
  Wonder if parents are calling for their own family reform.
• 34:48
  You know, what would happen if parents called for familial reform and started laying down the law?
• 34:55
  What do you think would happen if parents just en masse said that's it, we're done.
• 35:00
  You don't get social media until you're 18.
• 35:04
  Ooh, that would be something.
• 35:06
  But it's not going to happen.
• 35:08
  I mean, we know it's not going to happen because you know, parents don't, they don't have the authority that they once had.
• 35:16
  I mean, that's something that my parents probably would have said.
• 35:18
  18 Dean or 21 Dean, or when you leave the house, you can, you know, as long as you're under my roof, it's not happening.
• 35:25
  I mean, that kind of stuff was happening then.
• 35:28
  Uh, but yeah, you know, we've we've sort of let it go.
• 35:33
  We've we've just we've sort of let it go.
• 35:35
  And uh again, it's not I don't know, it's it's not the fault of one group.
• 35:40
  It's not the fault of parents, really.
• 35:42
  It's it's a collective societal thing.
• 35:46
  I mean, it happened in our schools, and and we let it go.
• 35:50
  We've we've it's happened in the pulpits and churches, and we've let it go, and then it's affected the family.
• 35:55
  Those, by the way, are the are the three institutions of society, the school, the church, and the family.
• 36:02
  And they have disintegrated.
• 36:05
  And they've it and it's it's been on purpose, it's been a plan.
• 36:10
  You know it has been.
• 36:12
  Uh, has it been a communist plot?
• 36:14
  I mean, maybe.
• 36:16
  Uh, I mean, speaking of Instagram, I saw on Instagram the other day.
• 36:23
  Pictures from the No Kings rally in New York recently.
• 36:27
  And the the flag that I saw the most, again, this was one photo, so um, but it's the the hammer and the sickle, it's the flag of communism being waved, being flown in New York City.
• 36:40
  Unashamedly.
• 36:44
  Uh, this is you know, the the school and the family and the church has disintegrated, and the communists told us that they would take over our country without firing a shot.
• 36:55
  And they own New York.
• 36:57
  I mean, they they own the city of the world.
• 37:00
  I mean, New York City is the world's city, it's the world's capital ultimately.
• 37:04
  I mean, it's the big apple.
• 37:06
  It's the home of the UN.
• 37:07
  It's the uh, and and now it's become it's become a communist stronghold.
• 37:16
  And it's unfortunate.
• 37:17
  I'm telling you, it's it's horrible.
• 37:19
  All right, I'm I'm I'm digressing.
• 37:22
  I don't mean to don't mean to digress, but we got into the parents calling for regulatory reform, and I'm like, why don't they call for familial reform?
• 37:33
  We should be recalling for societal reform, but in order to do that, we've got to take back our families.
• 37:39
  We have to take back our schools, we have to take back our churches.
• 37:42
  And that take back has to be organized.
• 37:45
  It just can't be done on a whim in little pockets.
• 37:48
  It's got to be um, it's gotta be something that we organize ourselves around.
• 37:54
  All right.
• 37:55
  Uh, this piece refers to the grieving parents who lost children to suicidal or fatal viral challenges.
• 38:04
  Um, and so I want to I want to dive into that.
• 38:07
  I'm looking at the clock here, though, and I'm up against it on this break.
• 38:10
  So let's look at the grieving side of this of this story of this case when we come back on the other side.
• 38:17
  You're listening to the dean's list on America Out Loud Talk Radio.
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  Okay.
• 40:47
  So let's let's wrap up this case here in Los Angeles.
• 40:53
  Uh just a host of people came through.
• 40:56
  The jurors literally heard from everybody and their brother.
• 41:01
  Uh grieving parents who lost children to suicide or fatal viral challenges, they say were caused by defendants' app features.
• 41:14
  Uh and this was a constant presence throughout the trial.
• 41:17
  Jurors constantly heard this theme.
• 41:21
  Uh sometimes they arrived before dawn or camped out all night to get a seat in the courtroom.
• 41:27
  So they're just, I mean, these are just not only people testifying, but people flooding the room.
• 41:33
  People flooding the area.
• 41:36
  Uh Victoria Hinks uh and her husband Paul Hinks lost their 16-year-old daughter Alexandra to suicide in 2024 after a brief struggle with mental illness that they say was driven by by social media.
• 41:54
  And here's what Victoria told the Epoch Times.
• 41:57
  All the parents were so happy.
• 42:00
  We feel our kids are smiling down on us, and we feel we have a little bit of power back sitting in that room listening to the jury, and the system worked, and it rendered a just verdict.
• 42:12
  I'm glad the jury agreed with the plaintiff that this was an unsafe product.
• 42:19
  They made it addictive to children, they knew what they were doing, and every parent in there tried their best to keep their kids safe.
• 42:28
  That's what Paul said, her husband, the product is broken.
• 42:32
  You can't blame the parents.
• 42:34
  It's not our job to keep their customers safe on their product.
• 42:40
  So this is interesting because you know, essentially social media is a young industry, and we're really just now discovering and realizing what it does to the human brain.
• 42:57
  The what we're just now discovering and realizing the addictive power that it has over the human mind, especially young people whose brains are not fully formed yet, they're not fully developed.
• 43:11
  That prefrontal cortex, yeah, it's not uh, you know, it hasn't completed its developmental cycle yet.
• 43:22
  And we are just now discovering the effects that that is being played upon adolescent minds and brains here.
• 43:31
  So I I kind of agree with Paul here.
• 43:35
  I I think it's fair to say that in this case when we're just now discovering what's happening, you you can't really blame the parents.
• 43:46
  Uh I think after the fact, you know, after what we're learning and discovering, uh, you know, that that's a different story.
• 43:54
  I mean, we we get it now, and more information is going to keep coming out, and we're going to continue getting it and continue understanding it.
• 44:03
  But now this industry's relatively young.
• 44:08
  And if these guys knew it, and I mean by these guys, I mean the social media companies, the tech giants here, if they knew it, if they understood, then I think the onus is on them.
• 44:23
  I think the responsibility solely lies on them.
• 44:27
  The case narrowly focused on design and operation features such as infinite scroll, beauty filters, and the company's proprietary algorithms rather than third party content hosted on the platforms.
• 44:42
  So you know, because this was this was kind of the the beef in the complaint the company said we can't control what's what's being posted on our platforms.
• 44:52
  We can't we can't control the third party content.
• 44:54
  We've got to be, you know, we're protected by the First Amendment and section 230 of the blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 45:00
  You know, yep, yeah, you get all that.
• 45:04
  Um, but the focus here was on proprietary content of the company, their proprietary algorithms, their infinite scroll, their beauty filters, you know, etc.
• 45:20
  And here, pointing to internal documents unsealed during the trial.
• 45:26
  Meta whistleblowers testified that the company was well aware of the harms to young users, but chose to ignore them.
• 45:34
  Likening defendants to lions stalking wounded gazelles on the Serengeti.
• 45:42
  Plaintiff's attorney Mark Lanier argued that the tech giants preyed upon vulnerable teens in pursuit of money and power.
• 45:52
  Here's what he told the jury.
• 45:54
  They never go after the strongest, they never go after the boldest.
• 45:59
  They find the one that's weaker that's more vulnerable.
• 46:03
  And that's the one they get.
• 46:06
  That's the one they go after, and that's the one they get.
• 46:11
  And the jury is just taking this in.
• 46:14
  And you know, while reports said that they were stone faced.
• 46:18
  Oh, they're inside.
• 46:20
  They're they're in they're nodding their internal heads.
• 46:23
  I mean, obviously.
• 46:25
  Hindsight, we see that they were nodding their their internal heads here.
• 46:30
  Um, Mark Zuckerberg uh among company executives denied designing addictive apps or targeting minors.
• 46:39
  Uh, and he questioned whether social media addiction even exists.
• 46:44
  Oh, okay.
• 46:46
  That's interesting.
• 46:48
  Uh, here's what Zuckerberg told the jury during his testimony.
• 46:52
  To me, the North Star is making sure we're delivering value, and people are having a positive experience.
• 46:59
  And if that happens, I think people will naturally spend more time on the platform.
• 47:06
  So they're having a positive experience.
• 47:08
  There's value there, and they're gonna spend more time.
• 47:10
  It's not addictive.
• 47:12
  I mean, the bells and whistles and the dopamine hits.
• 47:14
  I mean, that's that's not that's not on us.
• 47:17
  We're we're we're simply providing a product of value.
• 47:22
  People are having a positive experience.
• 47:25
  Defendant's attorney argued that their platforms were a creative outlet for an already troubled child who came of age during the heightened stress of COVID-19.
• 47:38
  They said the companies had taken an over cautious approach, introducing protective features, even when evidence of risks was inconclusive.
• 47:49
  They argued that KGM's troubles started long before she began using social media.
• 47:56
  This is what uh one of Meta's attorneys, Paul Schmidt told the jury during his closing argument.
• 48:02
  He said their case depends on asking you to find that if you focus only on Instagram, somehow her life would be meaningfully different, referring to KGM.
• 48:14
  The evidence did not show that.
• 48:16
  It showed just the opposite.
• 48:19
  Uh Google's attorney, uh, Luis Lee argued that YouTube is not really social media, but rather a streaming app, kind of like Netflix.
• 48:29
  I mean, we're not even social media, really.
• 48:32
  We're just we're streaming.
• 48:33
  We're we're we're kind of like we're we're no different than Netflix.
• 48:37
  We're no different than the TV, really.
• 48:39
  We're just we're just out here streaming, you know, and kids are just gonna get on and watch just like just like Netflix.
• 48:48
  Um, all right.
• 48:49
  Well, there it is, my friends.
• 48:51
  The uh six million dollars, and again, six million dollars is a drop in the bucket.
• 48:57
  Six million dollars isn't really much of anything.
• 49:01
  Not to these, not to these massive companies, but what is much is the door that's being opened.
• 49:11
  And uh of course, Zuckerberg's gonna come out and say, I don't uh I don't think social media is addictive.
• 49:16
  I mean, we're out here just providing a product, it's product of value, and people are having a positive experience.
• 49:21
  So, of course, naturally they're gonna come back.
• 49:23
  It's a positive experience.
• 49:26
  Um, you know, are people at the bar just going back because they're having a positive experience?
• 49:32
  Or is it is it is it something more?
• 49:36
  Is it something more?
• 49:37
  Is it uh, you know, do people engage in anything addictive because it's a positive experience, or is it is there something more?
• 49:45
  And this is the door that opens up, and there's a there's a line of people waiting, waiting to get a piece of the meta pie, waiting to get a piece of the the Google pie.
• 49:58
  Uh and interesting.
• 50:00
  Interestingly enough, we we we get it.
• 50:02
  We know based upon the research that we've dealt with here.
• 50:06
  Just here on this program in the past, just in the past few days.
• 50:11
  We have talked through the research that explains what is going on in the human brain.
• 50:21
  While um, well, you know, screens are being used.
• 50:27
  And it's not um, you know, it's it's it's not that it's not addictive.
• 50:36
  It is uh it certainly appears to be that way, and and and not only not only that, but it also appears to be detrimental to learning, detrimental to understanding, detrimental to comprehending.
• 50:56
  We've looked at the studies, we've looked at the research, and last week we got into this conversation.
• 51:03
  Uh, what happens when when teachers are replaced by screen uh screens, uh screens, Emily Cherkin and uh neuroscientist Jared Horvath both testified before Congress on the effects of screens, and they were in this piece put together uh by the epoch times, uh, where both of them are discussing really uh you know what's happening here.
• 51:37
  Um researchers, according to uh according to the to the reports here, researchers in this area have long compared compare traditional learning methods with uh learning methods that are that are based on the screen.
• 51:54
  Now I know in these particular uh meta and google cases, it's not really about education, it's not about learning, it's about Doom Scrolling.
• 52:02
  But we have an element and education today that really wants to push tech.
• 52:13
  And it will have the the same effect as Doom Scrolling.
• 52:20
  It's not going to be beneficial.
• 52:24
  Uh across studies, we we know that writing notes by hand and reading from actual paper help students remember and understand more than typing or reading on a screen.
• 52:36
  Uh the the typing and reading on a screen tends to make reading faster, but it also makes it more scattered.
• 52:44
  But it's it's not only just about screens versus paper.
• 52:47
  There are deeper reasons why students learn better uh from having uh an actual teacher in the room rather than learning from screens.
• 52:58
  Because right now there's this push.
• 53:00
  There is this, there is this technological push that we're kids gotta be on their computers, they've got they're gonna be learning from computers.
• 53:09
  Uh in his book, why students don't like school.
• 53:14
  Willingham said that to remember something, one must first think about it.
• 53:21
  If an idea does not demand attention and effort, the idea won't stick.
• 53:27
  When work is too easy, students get bored and they drift, he said.
• 53:32
  And therefore, many many of these ed tech platforms are designed to reduce friction.
• 53:42
  They get instant hits, there's autofill, there's gamified rewards, uh, there's seamless search uh that that creates you know, quote unquote momentum.
• 53:55
  Students may move quickly and feel successful throughout these these programs as they as they work through and play these games or or whatever, these educational games, but speed and fluency are not the same as mastery.
• 54:10
  I was reading um the Count of Monte Cristo last night, and at one point in the story, uh the the Abbey and Edmund Dontes are talking about uh, you know, they're they're planning their escape from the prison.
• 54:28
  And they've been talking about the past two years or the past year, how it's not been wasted because the Abbey has been teaching uh Dantes philosophy and language and economics and math, and he's he's been been receiving an education.
• 54:45
  And he, you know, the Abbey was like, I can teach you everything in about two, everything I know in about two years.
• 54:52
  And Dantes was like, holy smokes, I'm gonna get all that in two years, I'm gonna be brilliant.
• 54:57
  And he said, well, yes, you're gonna learn it, but you're not really going to know it because you know, learning, yes, you'll you'll remember, but then there's a philosophy behind it.
• 55:12
  And that philosophy comes in the application, where you're gonna have to actually apply it.
• 55:20
  And it applies here to this to this uh ed tech platform design where speed and fluency of getting through a game and maybe uh uh you know solving some math problems for for rewards, those those aren't the same as mastery.
• 55:38
  Speed and uh speed and fluency aren't the same as mastery, mastery comes when there's a philosophy of a thing that's being studied, and you can spit it back out and you understand the whys and and the hows and and the wins and the where's you get all that.
• 55:58
  Uh and it's that's not really it's not gonna happen through through technology.
• 56:04
  It it just isn't.
• 56:07
  Technology, my friends, is not the savior of the country.
• 56:11
  It isn't going back, going back.
• 56:15
  That's that's what'll save us, going back to our roots, going back to our founding.
• 56:19
  All right, so uh meta and Google took a throat punch last week.
• 56:23
  We're gonna see where this goes from here.
• 56:25
  It is going to be interesting.
• 56:28
  What other doors are gonna open up?
• 56:30
  Who's gonna walk through, who's gonna demand a piece of their own pie, who wants the money?
• 56:35
  That's what uh that's what's going on, or that's what this is all about.
• 56:39
  All right, my friends, we're up against it.
• 56:41
  That is it.
• 56:42
  That is all the time we have for today, America.
• 56:44
  Thank you for joining us.
• 56:46
  Encourage your friends and family to get on the dean's list.
• 56:50
  Let's unite to renovate the age.