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Makers and Methods Podcast: The Big Three · Makers & Methods Podcast

• speaker-0: What's up everybody? Welcome to the Makers and Methods podcast presented by Roland DG. I am Sean Profera, your host for this podcast. speaker-1: Hi, and I'm Elena Harmon. I'm also your host. speaker-0: for this podcast. The Makers and Methods podcast is a podcast by Roland D G and we're talking about different technology applications and ideas that are helping print businesses grow. speaker-1: Correct. Each episode's gonna bring together industry knowledge, practical experience, and real world applications to help print providers provide better understanding and the tools they use. speaker-0: So on this episode we're talking about what we consider the big three in wide format printing and we're referring to ink in that regard. So EcoSolvent, UV and Latex. So the big three in ink. speaker-1: We're gonna be breaking down how each technology works, where each one performs best, and what print providers should consider when deciding which ink technology makes the most sense for the applications for their business. speaker-0: So before we get into that, just a little bit of a background on who we are as your host for the podcast. Like I said, I'm Sean Prefere with Roland D G A here. And the print industry's all I know. I mean, this is what I grew up in. I basically grew up in a science shop as a teenager and worked my way up into working for some suppliers and distribution. have a bit of a technical background for for many years servicing equipment across several manufacturers and transitioned into sales just became a little bit of a natural fit as I figured out as I was in the field working on machines. You were kinda you were selling at the same time. So we wore two hats for several years and then fully made the transition to where I felt the money was, right? The the sales side of things. And yeah. Kind of just worked my way up into now working for the manufacturer directly. So it's been a fun ride. The parent industry is kind of one of those places as if you're in it, you're in it for life. You can't really get out, right? Yep. so yeah, it's it's been fun. So Elena, how about you? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I started out at, you know, a customer shop that was more customized sporting apparel. and worked my way into the dealer. started with a big dealer and actually I started out in marketing. So I took care of most of their events and then, you know, worked my way into inside sales and then eventually into the digital outside sales role. where, you know, we kinda had a unique situation. Like the sales rep is actually who installed the printers. where I came from. And yeah, so I mean I not only was I selling, but I was also installing the equipment. So it's a fun industry. I don't think anyone ever plans to be in it, but it's it's cool when we land here, right? speaker-0: Yeah. I definitely had no idea what I was walking into when I walked into a sign shop. I literally asked them, What do you guys do? That van outside is pretty cool with all the flames on. Yeah. So it was really, really different. And I I mean, I'm glad I did 'cause it was fun. It's been a fun ride and yeah, I think it's pretty unique kind of how y it worked out where you were. You know, probably gave you a really better sense of how the equipment work, right? If we're Not just selling on spec sheets and things like that. You're getting your hands on with the equipment. Absolutely. Makes you feel more confident like you actually know what you're talking about. So I guess that's why we're here. speaker-1: I mean there's times. There's ti sometimes I'm like, I don't know. speaker-0: Fake it till you make it, kinda. Yeah. we're we're we're stoked to be doing this podcast. It seems like it's gonna be a lot of fun. it's it you know, Lei and I work together on several different projects doing a lot of educational webinars and trainings and such. So hence the topic of of the big three ink types essentially. So there's A lot of crossover between the the technology from EcoSolvent, EcoUV and Latex. they all work and behave a little different, but they have a lot of common applications. So if you're getting into wide format, it's probably a bit confusing, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Well, and I mean, I don't know. I know with your experience when you go into shops or w let's say you have a new customer that ha knows nothing about the wide format printing and how do you explain in a very simple way the differences in the ink technology? speaker-0: Yeah. The machines all kind of look the same, but they're they're spitting different flavors of ink, right? And why Absolutely. What makes one better than the other, essentially? And it's it's not necessarily that case that one's better. It really just kinda comes down to some of the the first questions that we would all ask when we were out there selling equipment, right? What are you looking to do? And that's that's realistically where you gotta start, that kind of discovery phase, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Is the application? speaker-0: A absolutely. you know, is it going outside? Is it for indoor decor? You know, what are we doing? And that's kinda gonna help us steer it steer in the right direction of understanding, okay, maybe this is a better fit for one or the other. so it really comes down to what you wanna produce and how your shop operates or where you see your business going. speaker-1: Yeah, so if you could, you know, let's just hypothetically say, like, dumb that that down for me. Explain just a real quick down and dirty version of the differences in those inks. speaker-0: You want me to do that in like a 30 second deal? Absolutely. Okay, awesome. Thanks for the challenge. They all have their benefits. and and I would say the one that's probably one of the most common that's been around for the longest is EcoSolvent. it's really well known for its vivid color range, expanded color gamuts, low running cost, but mostly your outdoor durability. It gives you a lot of color, a lot of pop, but a lot of durability for your outdoor graphics. but there's there's some limitations there, you know, it's it's become and it usually comes down to the curing. So understanding how these things work, you know, whether it's going to be compatible with different medias and such. But typically out there you're seeing most of your vehicle wraps and your signage from, you know, 10 to 20 years ago really began really came from solvent, eco-solvent printing where it transitioned from an aqueous water based pigment ink that just didn't really last outside. So adding those solvents to it really gave that durability. But and then you got latex. I mean, coming onto the scene strong and kind of adding some versatility there. again, hitting a lot of similar applications, but it's a water based ink. So it offers a lot of advantages in that space because we've got no odor no odor. And So there's there's no there's no smell, there's no w some would consider maybe harmful VOCs or anything like that. So there's advantages to that if we're doing a lot of indoor maybe wall murals and wraps, some it's going in hospitals, more sensitive areas, but then has the advantages of some outdoor applications, vehicle wraps and such as well. I don't know if I'm keeping it under thirty seconds. speaker-1: I was gonna say you've you've clearly felt this challenge, but we got we got one more to go over. We got one more to go over and that is UV. speaker-0: UV, right? Yeah. So the UV is is again has its advantages and limitations, but is very strong. Most think about it in your flatbed printing. It's it's again coming down to the way it cures. It cures with UV LED lamps in most cases nowadays and cures immediately to whatever substrate. It doesn't have to be just on a roll. It could be, you know, flatbed stuff. We're talking about printing directly to your Corrugated plastics and different boards but also different objects. Yep. You know, there's there's several different object printing equipment out there that can print and decorate a lot of different promotional items and things. That's how we're especially achieving those applications. Yep. speaker-1: Those printers that are doing the helical and cylindrical prints. speaker-0: You love that word. Helical. That's a helical. Yeah, to be able to print your customized tumblers and different things like that instead of slapping a sticker on there essentially. That's not going to be very durable. We're able to print direct because of that UV technology. So yeah, the the big difference is in the way it kind of cures, but they all have their advantages depending again what is the application. So speaker-1: And really that's what the customers and the end users really need to know first. They need to have the idea of like what they want to do with that business because bef if they don't have that yet, then we can't really determine what printer is gonna be the right fit for them or the right ink technology for them, right? speaker-0: Yeah, they they've gotta have an idea clearly if it's a startup, you know, what's what are the things that are important to you that, you know, your your needs, you know, and then we can get to some of those wants and see if those kind of fit within you know, some of the some of the technology that's available. But yeah, if someone was to walk up to me right now and say, Well look, I'm I'm in the rap game. I'm a rap installer and I wanna start producing my own raps. So right there we kind of know we narrowed it down to two out of the three technologies because the limitations of UV is it's not a very flexible ink type. There's versions of it, but it doesn't flex or conform because if we're trying to manipulate the media, right, a car wrap we're gonna stretch a lot and conform around bumpers and contours and that that ink doesn't wanna go with it. speaker-1: No, and sometimes you especially on some of those, you gotta use less heat on some of those wraps if you're using, you know, a certain UV ink. Changes speaker-0: Right. So speaker-1: the way you wrap the car and the technique of the wrap. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, the installation itself and things like that. So yeah, if someone came to me and then said that's that's what we're gonna do, that's our primary focus, we know that UV's out essentially. And we can look at the other two, Latex and Ecosolvent. and from there that's that's kind of becomes a preference almost at that point. You might want to start looking at the advantages of the two. Like I said, Ecosolvent's got a there's a lot of expanded color gamuts with, you know, reds and oranges and green inks out there. where a lot of latex is still kind of falling into that four maybe to six color space. Some expanded gamutes that we're seeing, but it's you know, the punch of color with with solvent. I mean it's because of that ink it's got solvents. So speaker-1: Well, but that also kind of changes where that customer fits, right? We gotta determine if the customer is just wanting to produce and produce quickly or if they're trying to hit brand colors. Because you know, on some printers there's multiple ink configurations. speaker-0: Yeah, having more colors helps you achieve those challenging corporate logos and things like that. So if it's just vehicle wraps and you're looking for some cool you're just doing very custom stuff, you know, may not come into play as much. But if your customer is a very large corporate, you know, that's very specific on certain oranges or reds and things like that, having orange and red ink really help to achieve achieve that. But Yeah. And and just understanding also is that the only thing they're looking to do? You know, do they also want to offer, you know, another application or is there gonna be also doing a lot of say window graphics or something like that where they're we're gonna be printing with white ink or something? Correct. Right. Then there's there's limitations to one of those ink types that's not so great at it when it comes to printing white. go ahead. speaker-1: Well, I was gonna say, yeah, especially with white, I mean that's a question you need to ask the customer, but a lot of times customers sometimes they want white and they want that ability, but you know, sometimes I kinda have to pull them back and say, Do you already have the business and how much white are you gonna be printing? Like they really need to take that into consideration. speaker-0: Yeah, white's always a fun conversation because it's it's everybody kind of knows. If you've been in the industry, it's like you ooh, caution white, you know, we know if you don't really use it, you lose it to a certain point, right? It's gotta it's gotta move. It doesn't like to sit. So there's recirculation systems usually set up in a lot of machines, but if you're not putting it down on the material, it's gonna flow through the machine and usually just end up in a waste tank, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, so when it comes to white, I mean how do you kind of steer those newer customers, you know, if if I came to you and said, Hey Sean, I want I want to print white and I have the business already, how would you kind of guide me on which printer and which ink technology would be the best, you know, mainly the ink technology would be the best route to go? speaker-0: again it if it's the same vehicle wrap customer, you know, we need something that's got a a bit of that versatility and flexibility, being able to produce outdoor graphics, have the the benefits of and the flexibility for the car wrapping. But if they're gonna say like like you said, I do also a lot of window applications and I need that white for that that backing or that that opacity for the color on top, I'd probably steer towards latex because that that eco solvent white Takes a long time to dry. It's not very opaque. It's it's just got it's it doesn't function and behave as well as the way that Latex is able to lay that down, but still produce and have the flexibility and everything for the other applications. Now cut that app that vehicle wrap application out there and they're just doing backlit signage or printing on just clear medias all the time. We're not looking to stretch the material, like I said. I'd a hundred percent be looking at UV w because the opacity of the white with UV. Absolutely. speaker-1: I mean you called me you called me out a while back, you know. When you when you speaker-0: Me? No way. speaker-1: Yeah. you know, when you've worked for a you know, a dealer and you have certain manufacturers, sometimes we get into a tunnel vision. And as soon as someone says, I want white ink, you almost highly just focus on one. and I mean, you're the one that presented it like, Why didn't you push U V? And I was like, That's a great Yeah, thanks for calling me out. speaker-0: I think it was a backlit application too. speaker-1: Yeah, it was color and understanding the importance of why color white color on a backlit is you know people need to know why. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The Oreo print, as a lot of them a lot of people refer to it. or a little ice cream sandwich, right? Color white color, layered printing. I mean, it it's it's very real. It's a big application for usually window graphics or something like that. But being able to achieve that is very difficult with other technologies outside of UV. Just again, instant cure. I mean the the light cures that ink right on the material. That means we can lay a color and then lay it white and then lay a color rate on top of it simultaneously, essentially. And there's a lot of equipment out there that can do that in single pass modes. So a lot of people refer to, or at least I did, if you're looking to push pull graphics, a lot of people are like, I don't get it. I'm like, well, you ever walk up to a door that says push on one side, pull on the other? That's what I'm talking about, right? One image on one side, another image on the other. So To be able to get that is difficult without without UV. so again, diving towards what applications are important to that customer. And you know, as they grow, it doesn't mean you have to stay with one, right? They having one of the having another ink technology in a shop or several ink technologies in one shop is very common. yeah. I mean, if you're trying to expand offerings, I mean there's that's the best way to do it is have different types of ink technology. speaker-1: You typically see a customer start out with maybe an EcoSolvent or a Latex and then adding UV because UV you can add some of the specialty colors and the embossing and the textures and you know, it's you know, you can also sell those at higher margins too. I mean speaker-0: Yeah. That's that's also another really highlighting factor of UV is the special effects, like you said. There's the varnish, gloss, clear, whichever you want to call it. They're c all really refer to the same thing. But yeah, if you see some of those really cool decals out there that kind of have that clear spot gloss embellishing, that's all UV. So like a shop that does just run stickers all day long, they might be already have a a latex or a solvent printer to do that because it does it really, really well, but you don't have those special effects available. speaker-1: It takes it up a notch. speaker-0: So yeah, it elevates your sticker game or your label game really well by dropping in even just a 30 inch printer in there. that can print and cut your decals, add that special effect layer on top of it. Now you get the best of both worlds. And you know, you can definitely separate yourself from the shop down the road. with that kind of technology in your pla in your shop. speaker-1: Well, and then, you know, I would say probably the next topic would be, you know, well, which ink is going to save me the most money? Or which one's going to be the most efficient? You know. that's always a customer's concern too. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, like I said kinda in the beginning, it's, you know, what are the wants and what are the needs, right? Like maybe they're looking to upgrade equipment and they've been running a certain technology for a while. You know, latex tends and UV tends to run a little bit on the higher side per square foot. If we're talking in terms of printing roll to roll, before we get into some real large, you know, hundred, two hundred thousand dollar plus units that are running very lean, but You know, if we're talking about in the sign and graphics space where we're running a lot of roll to roll stuff, you know, the latex has optimizers and overcoats and and you know, so there's several layers of ink involved. And again, with UV, if we're running multi layer jobs, if you're we're adding more ink, more cost per square foot. More glasses, yeah. Yeah. EcoSolvent still is probably gonna run the most lean per square foot, the most efficient. and again that has to do with the curing. You know, it's kinda sits in and out of the material. That's why it conforms so well is because it's it's become one with the material and just the technology continues to get better and more efficient, more robust. And yeah, there's there's units out there running, you know, ten to twelve cents a square foot. And that's that's pretty incredible when you're talking about you know, versus what ten years ago, five ten years ago that was speaker-1: Twenty four to forty eight hours. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, or twenty you know, twenty to twenty five cents a square foot. If you drop that down to twelve cents, I mean it doesn't sound like a lot 'cause we're talking about cents per square foot, but when you're running a roll that's six hundred and seventy-five square feet, you know, that cost per square foot does come it adds up. It adds up. You run five, ten rolls a month, that could be seven hundred dollars in ink that you're saving versus just another technology. So it's something definitely You know, I know us as a team working different shows when we're talking to different customers, that that's that's definitely something we bring up all the time is you know, your cost per square foot. And that's that's a good way to look at upgrading, you know, your old technology or older legacy equipment and considering different ink technology maybe than what you currently have in your shop. speaker-1: Or if you wanna upgrade or finding the right printer that's gonna fit your needs, right? you mentioned curing. I mean during the curing process I know, you know, coming from a dealer and being in from the experience, like we know there's always a question about outgassing. speaker-0: I knew you were gonna do that to me. I knew it. speaker-1: It's a big one. speaker-0: Yeah, it's it's a common question. And I think educating people on just understanding what outgassing is is very important. when and where it comes into play. so I'll try to be very general about it the best I can. But yeah, you know, it's not to be confused with drying. It's not whether the print is still wet and drying. It's it's you know, it's exactly what it sounds like. It's outgassing, it's curing, you know, if there's we usually think about it with solvents and things like that, because it solvents need to evaporate and cure and outgas from the material. and usually we're talking about that when it comes to lamination. So before we throw a protective layer over this, you know, we want to make sure it's fully outgassed. So Things have improved over the years, you know, and it's very tied to the media manufacturers a lot of times on whether what they state is a a time, you know, that they'll warranty or kind of say that this is good enough before you laminate. Used to be twenty four hours, which is pretty wild. You know, that was that was a lengthy time. but now we're seeing it down between four and six hours. So we can really do same day lamination in a lot of cases with many solvents. But that really does elevate and highlight latex where that fits, right? So there is essentially zero outgassing and I would definitely refer or defer to the media that you're working with to pr make sure that's the case because again, they kind of dictate that whether speaker-1: The media manufacturers. Yeah. And I mean, it'd be one of those things we it would be kind of interesting to kind of dig into that with some of these media manufacturers to see kind of how, you know, the testing process for these inks. kind of dig a little deeper into that. speaker-0: Yeah, you gotta w when usually they're asking about that, it's it's because they wanna have the warranty that's provided and tied to it, right? So there's a lot of things and other pieces of that that all have to be in sync, right? That the not only do we gotta have that wait time to lamination, but it's the laminate has to be compatible or warranty or the media, the ink, things like that. So it's it's kinda like when we talk about, you know, somebody like, it's It's a water based thing, so it's so more much more sustainable, all that. And then you print on P V C material, right? It's like okay, you just canceled each other out there. So make sure you got the full, you know, story, everything all aligned so that you really are doing you know, what you think you're supposed to be doing. speaker-1: Yep. Well and a lot of times, you know, the whole outgassing process, you know, with UV, everything, you know, with that UV light, it it cures instantly. I kinda wanna touch on just, you know, finishing and laminating. You know, some people will say with UV you don't need to laminate at all. speaker-0: Yeah, I suppose that's the case. And there's you know, with UV again it's being textured a a little bit on top of the material away cures. So laminating s UV sometimes can also be a little bit of a challenge if there's too much ink built up there. But yeah, we're we're still you know, again, these are all good questions to be asked to help narrow down what the ink technology is the right fit for them. So if it's a shop like you were just saying, that's like I high speed, high volume, all wraps all day, I need to laminate immediately, all that kind of stuff. Do you Latex is probably a solid fit for that kind of customer because they're loading a roll and they're they're just running it, right? And like they're pulling off panels and they're laminating and they're wrapping because it's just that kind of volume. That's that's probably a solid, solid fit for that kind of customer. But, you know, if you want to if you're able to sacrifice a little bit of time essentially to give these panels to Outgas, you've got the benefit of running at a lower ink cost and you got the benefit of punchier color, more vibrant and expanded color gam is. So again, it's it's a little bit of balance. That's that's why I say and it's like what's the wants, what's the needs, what's the demand? Is it high, fast, turnaround? Well speaker-1: And how efficient is that shop running, right? speaker-0: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I yeah, I use the like if it's a franchise a lot of times we got these signs in a day, signs in an hour, signs in a minute, I guess, you know, what's next? it's bonkers to me that you can offer that, but I think if that's your type of business where you've just got essentially walk ins, right, you gotta be able to turn and burn. So some of this technology require doesn't allow you to do that. It there's a lot of setup and warm up time and just doesn't allow you to interchange roles so quickly. So yeah, again, these are all great questions that are good to consider up front, steering a customer towards what ink top technology is going to be the best fit for their business. speaker-1: Absolutely. Well, I think I think I want to challenge you. Are you ready? speaker-0: man, why not? speaker-1: Give me, let's say we're gonna start with EcoSolvent. Give me the top three applications for EcoSolvent. speaker-0: Top three. I think I'd definitely start with vehicle wraps because of the color. Yep. And the cor conformability. I think the color just is got the best punchiest, most vibrant options and running at that lowering cost. anything outdoor, fleet graphics. I'm not it doesn't have to be vehicle wraps, but I say fleet graphics outdoor. I think that durability of the ink is super, super strong. You know, with lamination you can get seven, eight, ten years outdoor with the right media accompanied with the right ink and lamination. speaker-1: Depending on what environment and climate you're in. speaker-0: Yeah, you know, I'm in Florida, so you put you put the hat out on the water, man, it it can beat it up pretty easy. So having something that has that durability, I think, and Ecosolv and I in my opinion really has that. and then last, probably just go banner. I think you can write run these things wide open. You know, you get some of these production units, you know, banner a lot of time isn't viewed very close, so you can run it a little bit in more higher speeds. you know sacrificing a little bit of quality. So I think in terms of speed, you can really get some good you can pump out some banners on on some Ecosong units, yeah. speaker-1: Alright, which one do I want to go with next? let's control UV. speaker-0: I don't like this game. I love it. I love it. UV, top of my top of my mind, stickers, just 'cause I'm a sticker guy. I'm clearly like stickered up, it would look like. you get the coolest stickers and labels and decals because of the special effects. number two, direct to object stuff. Like you can decorate anything. I mean, because of the technology, it could be a roll-to-roll, could be a giant flatbed, could be a small format flatbed. We can print on all your promotional items and direct to object stuff. Yeah, it's kind of fits in that industrial space, so we can really hit on a lot of cool different I mean we can print on Legos, we can print on golf balls, we can print on pens, we can print on print on leather. speaker-1: Leather. speaker-0: Yeah. So it's it's baller for that those applications, right? So UV really kicks butt in that space. And then You get into the the flatbed, the larger flatbeds. You're able to that's the best way to print boards. We don't you know, it takes a lot of long time if we're using other technology to lick and stick our graphics essentially to our boards and make our yard signs and make our retail displays. Print direct with U V? Yeah, absolutely. All day. speaker-1: All right. And then well, one thing kind of sticking to UV, I know there are some printer manufacturers that offer different UV inks for different types of substrates, like substrates that are a little bit more flexible, substrates that are more low energy surfaces that are harder to Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. There's there's different formulas or chemical makeups, I s I suppose, between all the different manufacturers. You're you've got UV gels, you've got harder UVs, you've got flexible UVs. yeah, that's that's kinda another conversation within the conversation, right? So we kinda steered them towards UV. Now it's like, what UV. So that's another podcast. conversation, but no, yeah, there's there's a lot of flexibility, I guess, in between it. So if you're printing Braille, there's higher build ink UVs for that. if you're printing on leather, there's more flexible UV inks for that. So yeah, that's that starts with the discovery phase of like, okay, we figured out UV is a good option, but now what UV type? speaker-1: Absolutely. All right, and the final one, latex. Give me three speaker-0: Can I just say everything else that I didn't say? speaker-1: I don't th I don't think that's gonna work. No. speaker-0: Vehicle wraps is kinda in that category too because again if you're you're high volume, you know that that essentially zero outgassing really allows you to jump into that and being able to same day laminate. I mean if you had if you're printing and laminating and finishing and wrapping a car in a day, that would be wild, but more achievable with that technology, right? Yeah. and then Man, it's got such broad media capability. I think it's kinda hard to lock one in. But yeah, I think window graphics does a great job. You know, you've got the the the white ink, it kicks butt there. And then man, what else is there? Signs. Signs. Signs. Can I just go real general and go science? Yeah. So it it crosses over. There's a lot of overlapping in all three. But yeah, canvas in speaker-1: Windows window graphics. i if you have a latex with the ability of white, you know, you have your window graphics and whatnot. Static clings stuff. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, sorry. I like I think I just I kinda hit a wall there for a second. Yeah, no, they in I mentioned it in the beginning. yeah. Wall decor, indoor stuff again for the for the zero VOCs, the no harmful water base gives you yeah, that's probably one of the largest advantages. Thanks for calling me out and putting me on the spot. Love to do speaker-1: It's called accountability. It's called accountability. speaker-0: Okay. All right. I hear ya. Well I think we covered a pretty wide range when it c in terms of all these different applications and everything that kinda where each of these ink technologies really stand out. So I think that's it for this episode of Makers and Methods. So speaker-1: Yeah, and I think if there is one takeaway from this episode, you know, the main focus is let's start with the applications. I mean, if you want to produce and choose technology that best supports the business that these end users are wanting to achieve and their goals. speaker-0: Yeah, appreciate y'all listening to the Makers of Method podcast presented by Roland DG. I'm Sean Perfera. speaker-1: And I'm Elena Harmon. And for more information, visit RolandDGA.com or follow Roland DGA on YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook.