Latest / Rachel Oates / We Need To Talk About Neil Gaiman

Transcript

We Need To Talk About Neil Gaiman · Rachel Oates

0:00
Hey everyone and welcome back to today's video.
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And today we are going to be discussing the Neil Gaiman
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situation in quite a bit of detail and having a wider
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conversation about consent and power dynamics in general.
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So it's definitely going to be a difficult one.
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It's going to be a heavy one. If you need to skip this video
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for whatever reason, that is absolutely fine.
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I do not mind at all. Please take care of yourself and
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put your own needs first. So for those of you who don't
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know, Neil Gaiman is currently a 64 year old English author who
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has been accused of, say, by a number of women who were either
0:32
his fans or employees or both. He's best known for his fantasy
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short stories, novels, graphic novels, episodes of legendary TV
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series like Doctor Who, and so much more.
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He has always been vocal about calling himself a male feminist,
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and he has been praised in the past for his portrayals of
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strong women. I don't know, I've always found
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that a little questionable, but I've still enjoyed his work.
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I absolutely have, and I think he is an excellent writer.
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Feminist is not the word that will come to mind when I
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describe when I thought of his work, his writing, his his
1:07
stuff. But I thought it was good
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nonetheless. Nonetheless.
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Why can't I speak today? Yeah.
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Like, I think you can enjoy a piece of work or several of them
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while still noticing that it is flawed in various ways,
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including ways that, you know, maybe it doesn't represent women
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in the best way in some cases. And there is a lot of rape and
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torture and murder of women and so on.
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I can think of several of his lesser known graphic novels
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where the female characters, if there are any, reduced to merely
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like a sexy prop, you know? But his work is what we're here
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to talk about today. We're talking about his actions
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off the page in the real world. I do have to say though, like
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I've spoken a few times in videos about separating the art
1:48
from the artist and where is it possible, where is it not and
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that sort of thing. And I have to admit that since
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all this has come to light, I've gone back and reread a bunch of
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his comics and books that I already owned.
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And like I say, as much as I want to advocate for separating
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the art and the artist and saying, yes, it's absolutely
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possible, and I feel like maybe like as long as you're not
2:07
financially supporting someone who's terrible, then it's OK.
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I do find that, like, my experience has been tainted.
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My enjoyment has been tainted. Like, it's really hard to freely
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enjoy the work of someone who you know is a monster, right?
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It's like how you read Lovecraft's horror stories and
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you can appreciate that they're damn fantastic horror stories,
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but in the back of your mind, you're still kind of sat there
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waiting for him to do or say something racist and it makes
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you uncomfortable. And you're like, can't, can't
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fully enjoy this. It's it's kind of like that
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here, except you can't quite relax and enjoy the stories as
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much knowing that a lot of the times how he was writing about
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women, we're talking about Neil Gaiman again now, is how he was
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treating them in real life. And, and worse.
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I don't, I don't know, yes, that makes me uncomfortable.
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I'm struggling a bit. OK, so let's talk about some of
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the allegations against him. And as much as I believe women,
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I have to call them allegations for reasons you know.
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And a few have come out since July 2024.
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But the main ones I'm going to focus on in today's video are
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the ones that spoke about in the recent Vulture article, which is
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titled There is no safe word how the best selling can't see
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author Neil Gaiman hid the darkest parts of himself for
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decades written by Laila Shapiro.
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The whole article is behind a paywall, which is a little bit
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annoying. So if you want someone who is
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going to go through it line by line, I recommend you check out
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Elisa's video. I edited that video for her.
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It's very good. She goes very in depth.
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She does not hold back. She's fantastic.
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And also I just love Elisi. She's a great person.
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This video is a bit different to hers because I'm doing more
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discussing and analysing, whereas she is just very like in
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depth and talking about it all and not holding back.
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So two different videos, same topic, different purposes.
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I recommend you watch both because like I say, I think
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Elisa is fantastic. I'll link hers down in the video
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description along with a load of of resources, books you can read
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if you want to find out, if you want to find out more about some
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of the topics I'm discussing. And there's also a lot of links
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to charities and organisations that can help you if you have
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been affected by anything we're talking about in this video as
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well. And also, if you haven't been
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affected, but you just want to go and support those charities,
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I really recommend doing that. Go and making a donation,
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volunteering your time, doing whatever you can.
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You know? So they will be LinkedIn the
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video description, right? So the Vulture article starts by
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introducing Scarlett Pavlovich. She is the main woman who is
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accusing gay men in this article and who has allegedly, I have to
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say, been severely mistreated by him more than anyone should not
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not like she's had it done more to than anyone else.
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Just no one should have to go through this is what I'm saying.
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It's horrific the things this man has allegedly done to her.
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So Scarlett met Gayman through his now ex-wife Amanda Palmer of
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the Dresden Dolls. And throughout reading this
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article and throughout this video, I absolutely have to
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question how much responsibility Amanda has for what happened.
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Was she to a victim of gay men's?
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Or based on some of the things later in this article, did she
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know what he was like and either knowingly or unknowingly enabled
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him? Was she putting these women
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knowingly in danger? I obviously can't make any
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definitive statements, but I can give you the evidence and ask
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questions and let you make up your own minds.
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So when they met in June at 2020, Scarlet was 22 years old
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and Amanda was 44. Neil would have been around 60
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at the time. Scarlett.
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Amanda met on the street and the article tells us that on the
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surface Pavlovich that Scarlett appeared to be self assured as
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well. A local girl, she dropped out of
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high school at 15 to travel Europe, Morocco and the Middle
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East on the cheap, pausing in Scotland.
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It was Pavlovich who approached Palmer on the sidewalk outside
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of perfumery. She was surprised when Palmer
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texted her a few days later. It's Amanda Dee Palmer, she
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wrote. Your new friend.
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The article then goes on to note that Amanda is perhaps more
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famous for her ability to attack a tight knit and devoted
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following wherever she goes, and that she's argued in the past
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there was no distinction between friends and fans.
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So immediately we have this massive power imbalance that is
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very obvious. It's clearly going on, and
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Amanda seems to thrive on this in her own life and her own
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career. I have spoken before in many
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videos about how dangerous it can be for celebrities or big
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influencers to be too close with their fans, to encourage
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parasocial relationships, to blur that line between fan and
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friend and take advantage of it. That can be incredibly dangerous
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for the fans involved. It can absolutely lead to that
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fan being taken advantage of and that is undoubtedly what
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happened here. Even before Scarlett met Neil,
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Amanda was taking advantage of her and taking advantage of this
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power imbalance between them. Yeah, Amanda absolutely took
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advantage of a young fan with no family, no support network, who
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loved her work and had a crush on her and it had a lot of
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trauma in the past that made her especially vulnerable.
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Amanda saw that, took advantage of it and used her to get free
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labour. The article goes on to say that
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over the following year and a half, Palmer and Pablo Fitch
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occasionally met for a meal or a drink.
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Palmer offered Pavlovich tickets to her shows and invited her to
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parties for the Patreon community at her house on nearby
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Waikiki Island that's in New Zealand.
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Sometimes, Palmer asked Pavlovich favours help running
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errands or organising files or looking after her child.
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Pavlovich was happy to assist. She had a crush on Palmer.
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She didn't mind that Palmer only occasionally discussed paying
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her, even though Pavlovich was always strapped for cash.
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For Pavlovich, who was estranged from her family and without a
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safety net, Palmer filled a deeper need.
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And I'll remind you one more time, this woman is a literal
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millionaire, married at the time to a multi millionaire.
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She is still taking advantage of a young vulnerable woman for
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free labour. And she didn't need to.
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She could have paid for this, she could have afforded this
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more than most people and she still took advantage.
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That alone is messed up and goes on for a couple of years.
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Scarlett kept agreeing to the work and eventually Amanda
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offered to pay her for a weekend of work as her five year old
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sons nanny. She mentioned that this job will
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require going back and forth between her house and Neils.
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This was 2022. Scarlett was now around 24 but
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still not in a good position in life.
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She had no real support network, no real home, no real income
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stream and she was really relying on these small bits of
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paid work from Amanda. Amanda and Neil Game at this
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point were now separated and living apart, but like I say,
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they still have this five year old son together.
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So Scarlett, who'd been living in Auckland, New Zealand, takes
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the ferry over to the island of Wahiki.
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When Neil lived, Palmer had a race for a playdate for the
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child, so not long after Pablovich arrived, she herself
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alone in the house with the author.
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For a little while, Gaiman looked in his office while she
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read on the couch. Then he emerged and opted her a
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tour of the grounds, A striking figure at 61, his wild black
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curls threaded with strands of silver.
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Around 8:00 PM, they sat down for pizza.
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Gaiman poured Pavlovich a glass of rose, and then another.
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He only drank water, so immediately, even though she's
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meant to be there looking after his kid, he's plying her with
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alcohol while remaining entirely sober himself.
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That is a predatory move right there.
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I mean, there's nothing wrong with like someone wanting a
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drink while you're not drinking, but the fact that you're like
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intentionally plying someone with more and more alcohol while
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not drinking yourself on purpose is a red flag, you know?
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And the fact that he's doing it while she's meant to be looking
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after his son later when he gets home, Like you could argue you
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could could argue not seeing this happen, but you could argue
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that it's very clear he didn't care about her being there to do
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her job and he simply wanted to take advantage of a slightly
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drunk woman alone. It could be argued in this case
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there wasn't so much a celebrity fan dynamic as she wasn't really
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sure or aware of who Gammon was or his work too much.
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But there was one in the sense that A.
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He was three times older than her, B.
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He was essentially her boss and paying her.
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I mean Amanda was too, but they were they were both her boss and
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she was incredibly reliant on this income from them.
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And C he is also a much larger man.
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She is alone in his house and he is sober while she is drunk.
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Lots of power dynamics at play there.
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The article says Pavlovich had never read any of his work, but
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she was anxious to make a good impression.
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After she'd clean up their plates, Gaiman noted there was
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still time before they'd have to pick up his son from the play
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date. I found a thought, she recalls
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him saying. Why don't you have a bath in the
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beautiful claw bathtub in the garden?
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It's absolutely enchanting. Pavlovich told Gaiman that she
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was fine as she was, but ultimately agreed.
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He needed to make a work call, he said, and didn't want
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Pavlovich to be bored. Gaiman LED Pavlovich down a
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stone path into the garden to find an old fashioned tub with a
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roll top and walked away. She got undressed and sank into
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the bath. A few minutes later, she was
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surprised to hear Gamans footsteps on the stones.
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In the dark. She tried to cover her breasts
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with her arms. When he arrived at the bath, she
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saw that he was naked. Gaiman put out a couple of
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citronella candles, lit them and got into the bath.
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He stretched out facing her and for a few minutes made small
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talk. He bitched about Palmer's
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schedule. He talked about his kids school.
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Then he told her to stretch out her legs and get comfortable.
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I said no. I said I'm not comfortable with
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my body, Pulsarich recalls. He said it's OK, it's only me,
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just relax, just have a chat. She didn't move.
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He looked at her again and said don't ruin the moment.
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She disinstructed and he began to stroke her feet.
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At that point, she recalls A subtle terror.
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So now not only has he got metaphorical power over her, but
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he's got her in a physically vulnerable situation too, where
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she feels she can't escape, she can't get away.
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Gaiman asked her to sit on his lap.
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Pavlovich stammered out a few sentences.
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She was gay. She'd never had sex.
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She'd been sexually abused by a four year old man when she was
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15. Gaiman continued to press.
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So generally, when a person is faced with a terrifying
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situation like this, there are four ways they may respond.
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Fight, flight, freeze or thorn? There's a great book called
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Constantly Bare by Chanel Contos which I'm going to be discussing
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quite a lot in this video and referring back to.
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And one of the bits I want to talk about for now is that in
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that book it discusses these 4 responses in quite a bit of
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detail. And I think what we can see
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throughout this entire article is that through many of her
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interactions with gay men, Scarlett was displaying both
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freeze and fawn responses. Janelle writes that freezing is
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a common response to being sexually assaulted.
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The brain pauses to assess the situation and routes out of it.
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Meanwhile, she writes that fawning is a strategy that we
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unconsciously learn to get ourselves out of trouble or
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dangerous situation. It's acting overly nice in order
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to survive an ordeal. This could look like fake
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laughing, fake smiling, letting your rapist drop you home,
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pretending to lie there asleep next to them, or getting
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breakfast with them the morning after an assault.
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She goes on to say that this trauma response is triggered
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when fight or flight and not options to achieve safety.
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It's common in women in heterosexual situations of
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assault as speaking general terms and man will be stronger
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and faster and trying to physically fight or outrun him
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is not an option. And that's what was going on
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here. Bearing in mind that Scarlett
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didn't have the best home life and had previously experienced a
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lot of trauma and being assaulted in the past herself,
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bear that in mind when Chanel goes on to say that fawning is
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common in people with PTSD and in codependent people who
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already harbour people policing tendencies.
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If you've lived in an abusive household or had a long term
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toxic relationship with a fossil former partner, you may be used
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to this idea of playing nice to reduce the impact of abuse.
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So while I've seen some horrible people online wrongly saying
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about Scarlett's story or wrongly asking why did she stay?
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Why did she keep going back? Why did she just tell him what
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he wanted to hear? Why didn't she run away or fight
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him? This is why it's a fawning
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response. It's a trauma response.
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It's very very common. It makes sense for the situation
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she was in. Fawning when you're scared to
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try and make sure you're safe doesn't mean you were consenting
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to any of it. Scarlett's story gets so much
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worse after this as she describes Neil Gaiman physically
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assaulting her in several ways in the bath before him telling
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her to and I quote, call him Master.
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I won't read it out, it's not very nice, but it's an Elise's
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video if you want to go and watch, and it's also on the
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article if you want to go read it for yourself.
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OK, the article of the Sun say that.
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Afterwards, Pavlovich crouched down in the water and tried to
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clean herself off. Gaiman looked at her and smiled.
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He said Amanda told me I couldn't have you.
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But as soon as he'd heard this, he knew he had to have her.
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God. He continued.
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I wish it was a good old days where we could both F you.
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So again, this part makes me question Amanda's role in all
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this. How much did she really know?
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I feel like if you have to warn someone to stay away from a
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vulnerable young woman that they're employing, then surely
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you know on some level that she's not entirely safe with
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him. I right I don't know, I'm sorry.
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It also absolutely shows Neils mindset here.
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This idea that he knew he had to have her upon hearing he
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couldn't. It was never about him liking
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Scar as an individual. It was never about them having a
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consensual relationship to him. It was all about wanting power,
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control and only seeing women, in particular this woman, as an
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object to play with. You know, he's like a kid with a
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toy that he's supposedly can't have.
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He wants it not because he wants that toy, but because he wants
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the power and control and to have something he's been told he
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can't. You know it.
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Chanel writes in her book that men are generally not trained to
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see women as their true peers. Women often seen as objects.
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Women can only be made objects when the basic principles of
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human empathy fail to be applied to them.
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When the female body can be commodified, exploited and hurt
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in the name of male pleasure, how can they be seen as true
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humans? And this is exactly what we see
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if gay men's behaviour here and throughout the rest of the
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article. Voltra article goes on to talk
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about Neil's work and career, and the power he had of a fans
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in general. Women would turn up to his
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signings dressed in elaborate Victorian goth attire of his
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characters and beg him to sign their breasts so slip him key
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cards to their hotel rooms. One writer recounts running into
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gay men at a World Fantasy convention in 2011.
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His assistant wasn't round and he was late to a reading.
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I can't get to it if I walk by myself, he told her.
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And as they made their way through the convention side by
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side, the whole floor of people tilted and slid towards him.
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She says. They wanted to be entwined with
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him in ways I was not prepared to defend him against.
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A woman fell to her knees and wept.
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People who flock to fancy conventions and signings make up
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an inherently vulnerable community, one of Gaman's former
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friends, a Fancy writer, tells me.
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They wrap themselves around a Bolivar text so it becomes their
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self identity. They want to share their souls
16:51
with the creators of these works.
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And if you have morality around it, you say no.
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It was an open secret in the late 90s and early aughts among
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convention goers that Gaman cheated on his first wife, Mary
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McGrath, a private Midwestern Scientologist.
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He admired his early 20s. The idea of predators being able
17:06
to spot and target vulnerable victims is sadly not new.
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It's very, very common. We see that predators often
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entwine themselves in communities and groups of people
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that are kind of known for being vulnerable, you know, so that
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they can pick out victims. So maybe they'll go and
17:24
volunteer with kids in the social care system or in gay
17:28
men's case, they go to these fancy conventions where they
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know they're going to be vulnerable women who are
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essentially easy for him to manipulate.
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You know, or sometimes you see predators are just very good at
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kind of like picking out people who have had previous, previous
17:43
trauma or who are vulnerable and kind of targeting them
17:47
specifically. Like they're very good at
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knowing who to target. In her memoir, consent memoir
17:54
and Jill, I think, I think it's pronouncement, she reflects on
17:59
her relationship with her at the time of writing, recently passed
18:02
husband of 45 years and how her view of the relationship changed
18:06
over the years. There were 30 years between them
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and they were married a hell of a long time.
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So when he died, she was in her 60s.
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He was in his early 90s, I believe, something like that.
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But when Jill and Arnold first met, she was just 16 and he was
18:22
46. They first kissed when she was
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17 and he was 47. He was her art teacher, and Jill
18:31
admits herself in a memoir that she was in a particularly
18:34
vulnerable position compared to the other students he was
18:36
teaching. She writes that I plan not to
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bother finishing high school come May.
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Artists don't need diplomas. I was emancipated minor.
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My single mother had three other children to feed.
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And there's also the dynamic she talks about, about how her
18:47
father had abandoned the family a few, how her father had
18:51
abandoned the family a few years before.
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She had a lot of issues around that and a lot of trauma around
18:55
it. And she kind of feels now,
18:58
looking back, that Arnold maybe saw these vulnerabilities in her
19:02
and took advantage of it. She goes on to write that when
19:05
she was just 17, he kissed me. I could have screamed, I could
19:08
have slapped him. But what 17 year old is prepared
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to slap a 47 year old man she'd fantasised about for the
19:14
previous six months? And I fervently kissed him back.
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I'd imagined his kiss ever since he looked down my blouse.
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But did I have the agency to consent?
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A teenage brain is impulsive. There's a mismatch between the
19:27
limbic system, which is the centre of emotion, and the
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prefrontal prefrontal lobe, which controls logic and
19:32
reasoning. Californiae age of consent is
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18. There's a Romeo and Juliet cause
19:37
in cases of statutory rape that forgives lovers close in age,
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but obviously that didn't apply here.
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Did the art teachers behaviour the extra attention he gave me
19:45
in class, the evenings he used my art to demonstrate how the
19:48
tendons cross over the elbow the night he looked down my blouse
19:51
qualify as child grooming, a term that psychologists used to
19:55
describe a paedophiles recruitment techniques and in
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her book and life experience. It's not just Arnold who did
20:00
this either as she got older and.
20:03
Other older men, including lecturers at her university, as
20:06
they began to find out about her relationship with Arnold and the
20:09
other things going on in her life, they began to see her as
20:11
an easy target and go after her too.
20:13
There were these older lecturers hitting on her, touching her
20:16
without consent. One man literally locked her in
20:19
his office and sexually assaulted her.
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Again, we kind of have to ask, like, is it a thing with
20:23
predators where they're just that good at picking out who
20:26
they think are going to be easy targets?
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If we go back to Scarlett's experience for a moment, and
20:31
after the initial assault, you might think that she would just
20:33
run away and never see gay men again.
20:35
But she didn't have the power to do that.
20:38
She was reliant on Neil and Amanda for a home and income,
20:41
and she had no other choice than to stay.
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Pavlovich was living in a sublet that was about to end.
20:46
She was broke and hadn't been able to find a new apartment.
20:48
She'd been homeless at the start of the pandemic, when the
20:51
perfumery she worked at closed, and had ended up crashing on the
20:54
beach in a friend's sleeping bag.
20:56
On and off for the first two weeks of lockdown, the thought
20:59
of returning to the beach filled her with dread.
21:01
She didn't consider reaching out to her own family.
21:03
Her parents were divorced when she was 3, and Pavlovich had
21:05
grown up splitting time between their households.
21:08
Violence, Pavlovich tells me, was normalised in the household.
21:11
One close family member beat her with a belt.
21:14
Another would strangle Paplovich when she got upset and slap her
21:16
across the face until her cheeks were raw.
21:18
She regularly began to cut her arms and wrists with a knife.
21:21
When she was 11, she became bulimic, then anorexic.
21:24
By 13, Paplovich had grown so thin that she ended up in a
21:27
psychiatric unit at Auckland Children's Hospital and spent
21:30
weeks on a feeding tube. When she was 15, she left home
21:32
and never went back. In the years since, she'd been
21:35
looking for a new family, but many of the people she'd
21:37
encountered in that search turned out to be abusive as
21:39
well. After all of this, Amanda Palmer
21:42
was an actual creature sent from a celestial realm.
21:44
It was like Hallelujah, Pavlovich tells me.
21:47
Palmer was famous for speaking out about sexual abuse and
21:49
encouraging others to do the same.
21:51
In songs and essays she'd written of having been sexually
21:54
assaulted and raped on multiple occasions as a teenager and
21:56
young woman. A young woman.
21:58
Pavlovich didn't think someone like that could be married to
22:00
someone who would assault women. So, and this comes back to what
22:05
I was saying about her being especially vulnerable and Neil
22:07
kind of seeing that and taking advantage.
22:09
Some people, again, wrongly, are like, Oh well, if a woman
22:12
sexually assaulted once, she's unlucky.
22:14
But if it happens repeatedly, then it's her fault.
22:16
And that is just an absolute load of crap.
22:19
Once a person already has trauma, it can be so much easier
22:23
for other people to manipulate and control and hurt them and
22:25
it's heartbreaking and it's absolutely not their fault, is
22:28
it babe? Scarlett resorted to fawning
22:32
over gay men repeatedly to try and keep herself safe.
22:36
The fawning is not a sign of consent, it's a sign that she
22:39
was petrified and trying to save herself, the article says.
22:43
After Palm's offer, Pavlovich texted gay men.
22:46
I'm consumed by thoughts of you, the things you will do to me.
22:49
I'm so hungry. What a terrible creature you've
22:51
turned me into. The following weekend, she
22:53
packed up her sublet and boarded the ferry to Wahiki.
22:56
Saying no to him directly had not worked.
22:59
Pleading with him to leave her alone hadn't worked.
23:01
She had no physical way to fight back against him, so she felt
23:05
like if she played along with his games and told him what he
23:08
wanted to hear, he would treat her better and be less likely to
23:11
hurt her. Sadly, this didn't work either
23:14
because there's really no way to win with predators like this.
23:16
But she had to try something and she felt like this was keeping
23:19
her safer than, you know, physically fighting him or
23:24
running away or whatever, because like, that wouldn't
23:25
work. So the article for a while talks
23:27
about how he seemed to have this really friendly public persona
23:30
and that no one ever expected he was anything but lovely.
23:33
However, his mask did slip with some people.
23:35
There was some who turned outside to the author.
23:37
One woman, Brenda, a pseudonym, met gay men in the 90s at a
23:41
signing for The Sandman where she was working on signing
23:44
lines. Gay men had an act for
23:45
connecting with each individual. A few years later, Brenda
23:47
travelled to Chicago to attend the World Horror Convention,
23:50
where gay men received the top prize for American Gods, the
23:53
book that cemented him as a best selling novelist.
23:55
The night after the award ceremony, she and Game and ended
23:57
up in bed together. As soon as they began to hook up
23:59
the feeling that had drawn her to him, the magical spell of his
24:02
interest in her individuality vanished.
24:04
He seemed to have a script. She tells me he wanted me to
24:07
call him Master immediately. He demanded that she promised
24:10
him her soul. It was like he'd gone in this
24:12
into this ritual that had nothing to do with me.
24:15
In summary of his allegations, the Vulture article states this
24:18
past July, a British podcast produced by Taught U.S. media
24:21
broke the news that two women had accused gay men of sexual
24:24
assault. Since then, more women have
24:26
shared allegations of assault, coercion and abuse.
24:29
The podcast Master, reported by Paul Corona Galicia and Rachel
24:34
Johnson, tells the stories of five of them.
24:37
Gay man's perspective on these relationships, including with
24:40
Pavlovich, is that they were entirely consensual.
24:42
I spoke with four of those women, along with four others
24:44
whose stories shared elements with theirs.
24:47
I also reviewed contemporaneous diary entries, texts and emails
24:50
with friends, messages between gay men and the women, and
24:53
police correspondents. Most of the women were in their
24:55
20s when they met gay men. The youngest was 18.
24:58
Two of them worked for him. Five were his fans, with one
25:01
exception, an allegation of forcible kissing from 1986, when
25:05
gay men was in his mid 20s. The stories take place when gay
25:08
man was in his 40s or older, a period of time when he lived in
25:12
the US, the UK and New Zealand. By then he had your reputation
25:15
as an outspoken champion of women.
25:18
Then there's just more and more stories of him taking advantage
25:21
of people who were fans of his. And this isn't just a matter of
25:24
like, oh, sorry, I misread the situation and made you
25:26
uncomfortable. I'm so sorry.
25:27
Let never let me, let me never do it again.
25:30
These are stories of him repeatedly going out of his way
25:34
to manipulate women, lying to them, ignoring their literal
25:38
pleas for him to stop, and repeatedly overstepping
25:41
boundaries that he knew were there because they told him
25:45
repeatedly so. Catherine Kendall was 22 when
25:48
she met gay men in 2012. She was volunteering at one of
25:51
his events in Asheville, NC. He invited her to join him a few
25:55
days later an after party for another event where he kissed
25:57
her. The two struck up a flirtatious
25:59
correspondence, emailing and Skyping in the middle of the
26:01
night. Kendall didn't want to have sex
26:04
with gay men and on one of their calls calls she Oh baby,
26:07
careful, you're OK, be safe. Kendall didn't want to have sex
26:10
with gay men and on one of their calls she told him this.
26:14
Afterwards, she recorded his reply in her diary that he had
26:18
no designs on me beyond flirty friendship, and I believed him
26:21
thoroughly. At a reading 10 months later,
26:23
Gaman suggested that Kendall and two of the girls wait for him on
26:25
his tour bus so they could all hang out after he was done
26:27
signing. When Gaman showed up, he pulled
26:30
Kendall into the back of the bus and lay on top of her.
26:32
He kept saying, kiss me like you mean it.
26:34
She tried to get into it, but she was panicked.
26:37
Eventually, Gaman rolled off her.
26:39
I'm a very wealthy man, she remembers him saying.
26:41
And I'm used to getting what I want.
26:43
Years later, Gaman gave Kendall $60,000 to pay for therapy in an
26:47
attempt, as he put it in a recorded phone call to make up
26:51
for some of the damage. Another story says that Gaman
26:54
had been having sexual encounters with younger fans for
26:56
a long time. Kendra Stout was 18 when in
26:59
2003, she drove 4 1/2 hours to Fort Lauderdale, FL to see Gaman
27:05
reaped from endless nights. She met him in the signing line.
27:08
Gaman sent her long emails and bought her a webcam so they
27:12
could chat on video. Around three years later, he
27:15
flew to Orlando to take her on a date.
27:17
He invited her back to his hotel room and held her down with one
27:20
hand. Gay men didn't believe in
27:22
foreplay or lubrication, Stout tells me, which could make sex
27:26
particularly painful. When she said it hurt too much,
27:29
he'd tell her the problem was she wasn't submissive enough.
27:31
He'd talk at length about the dominant and submissive
27:34
relationship. He wanted out of me.
27:36
Stout had no prior interest in BDSM, she says.
27:39
Gaiman never asked her what she liked in bed, and there was no
27:41
discussion of safe words or aftercare or limits.
27:44
He had asked her to call him master and beat her with his
27:46
belt. These were not sexy little taps,
27:49
she said. When she told him she didn't
27:50
like it, she says he replied. It's the only way I can get off.
27:54
I mean, if all of these women have such similar stories of
27:57
their experiences despite never having met, never having
28:00
discussed this before, sharing it publicly, like, then it
28:02
suggests that they're likely very true.
28:04
And we're seeing a pattern of behaviour for him.
28:06
You know, these are specific things that he's doing over and
28:09
over again that multiple women are corroborating it.
28:13
You know, I also want to, at this point, talk for a little
28:16
moment about his BDSM comment. Later, he also said so.
28:20
According to the podcast, which put gay men through his
28:22
representatives, his position was that sexual degradation,
28:25
bondage, domination, sadism and masochism may not be to
28:29
everyone's taste, but between consenting adults, BDSM is
28:33
lawful and it absolutely is. But what gay men was doing was
28:36
absolutely not BDSM. Every single person in the BDSM
28:40
community will tell you that the key to it all is communication
28:43
and trust. Every single person has to be
28:46
informed on everything and give prior consent, which can
28:49
absolutely be revoked at any time.
28:52
It's as much about the submissive party enjoying it and
28:56
in a lot of ways actually being in control as it is about the
28:59
dominant party enjoying it and seemingly being in control.
29:03
You know, if there's no prior discussion, if the submissive
29:06
party doesn't have any say in what happens, if there's no
29:09
consent, no safe words, no aftercare, then it's not BDSM,
29:13
it's just rape. It is that simple.
29:16
Neil Gaiman, if these allegations are true, was not
29:19
getting off to BDSM or just being dominant.
29:23
He was simply raping women and there is a a massive
29:26
distinction. I can't believe that even needs
29:28
saying. This woman tells another story
29:30
of gay men raping her which is so graphic and disturbing that I
29:34
will not read it out in this video.
29:37
Lizzy does cover in hers so it's it's horrifying though.
29:42
And to summarise, she had a very painful UTI, so she told him not
29:47
to penetrate her at all because she was in pain.
29:50
He did it anyway, repeatedly with various body parts.
29:53
And at that point, she tells me, I just shut down.
29:57
She lay on the bed until he was finished.
29:59
It's sickening. And this is just rape.
30:01
There is no other word for it. You know, when you were a kid in
30:04
school and you didn't, like, she says he history and you're
30:06
doing, like, World War 2 stuff. And everyone's like, yeah, but I
30:09
don't get it. Hitler was clearly a bad guy.
30:11
Like, I don't get how people fell for it.
30:12
I don't get why people liked him.
30:13
I don't get how we got to power. And now I'm like, well, now
30:17
we're literally seeing that happening in front of us.
30:20
Like this is how it happened before.
30:22
It's happening again. Except we should have the
30:26
knowledge this time to not let it happen.
30:28
And honestly, this time it's like even more in our faces.
30:32
I don't have the words. I I just feel like I'm watching
30:37
a bunch of idiots doing idiot things and there's nothing I can
30:40
do to stop it. And it's absolutely terrifying,
30:43
right? It, it doesn't feel real.
30:48
So bizarre. I, I don't know.
30:51
Sorry. That was a voice note to Alizi
30:53
and Angelina Scarf, because we're talking about the whole
30:57
Elon Musk Nazi saluting at the inauguration thing.
31:02
And apparently people are making excuse now that he's just an
31:05
autistic man trying to dab. And he did it badly.
31:08
And Eva was like, Rachel, you're artistic.
31:10
When you dab, do you accidentally Nazi salute?
31:14
It's like, funnily enough, no, No, I don't.
31:18
Not that I have a dab. But you know what I'm trying to
31:19
say? It's a stupid excuse for a
31:21
stupid man who's just evil and stupid.
31:25
And I. Oh, it's horrifying to, like,
31:27
watch all this unfold. Anyway, Speaking of horrifying,
31:30
Sorry, Neil Gaiman. Yeah, Like, it's like this
31:33
again. This isn't BDSM, he allegedly
31:37
repeatedly penetrated an I'll woman who repeatedly told him to
31:41
stop and repeatedly told him no. That is rape.
31:45
And that's not just any rape, but that's rape with malice and
31:48
forethought, with absolute disregard for her as a human
31:51
being. That's not OK.
31:54
Like the article then goes on to explore again is childhood,
31:58
growing up with Scientologist parents and being abused by the
32:00
church. And it is.
32:01
It is sad to read. It absolutely is.
32:03
No child should have to go through that.
32:05
You guys know how I feel about Scientology in general.
32:07
And that's actually, you know what?
32:10
I don't think I've ever made a full video about Scientology,
32:12
but I have been thinking about covering.
32:16
Was it Leah? Leah.
32:18
What was her name? Leah.
32:19
Leah Remini. Leah Remini.
32:21
Yeah. I was thinking about covering
32:23
her book on it. I think it was hers.
32:25
And I'll stop mad anyway. I'm not going to talk about it
32:27
now. I need to do more research, but
32:28
potentially a video on Scientology at some point if
32:30
they don't kill me first. Yeah.
32:33
So like clearly understanding his child and seeing all of this
32:36
and it's just proof that like cycles of abuse are continuing
32:40
going forward. And it's, it's absolutely
32:42
horrible. He was abused as a child.
32:43
Now he's abusing others. And I feel like when we read all
32:47
this stuff, we can absolutely feel sorry for him as a child
32:49
and what he went through and be like, oh God.
32:51
Like, he's clearly got a lot of trauma.
32:53
I hope he gets therapy and help and we can still understand how
32:57
awful Scientology is and be furious at the church whilst not
33:02
using that to excuse his behaviour.
33:04
It maybe explains his behaviour but it doesn't excuse it.
33:07
It doesn't excuse how he treated women.
33:10
We can still be absolutely furious at that too and
33:12
understand that there's absolutely no excuse for his
33:14
behaviour. Have I made any sense?
33:17
I hope right Then the article goes on for a bit to focus on
33:20
the relationship between Neil and his now ex-wife Amanda who
33:23
like I say we're talking about a little bit so far.
33:26
So I got some history here saying Gaman and Palmer met in
33:30
2018 when she was 32 and he was 47.
33:33
Both were a turning point in their lives and careers.
33:36
Gaman was in the midst of finalising a divorce from his
33:38
first wife, with whom he had three children, and on the verge
33:41
of breaking into Hollywood. Palmer was in a fight with her
33:45
record label that would culminate in a split.
33:48
So again, it could be argued that there was a massive power
33:50
imbalance here. The age thing maybe isn't so
33:53
much for a big deal at these ages 3247, that's fine.
33:57
But the fact that like he was at such a big powerful point in his
34:00
career and she was struggling a bit like maybe suggests and they
34:05
just might work together and stuff and she kind of needed his
34:07
help with like maybe maybe there was a little power and balance
34:10
that maybe he had a little bit more power overhead that who's
34:13
to say? I don't know.
34:14
It's not like with his employees and stuff, though.
34:17
Gaiman was the first to propose a romantic relationship in an
34:20
interview, he later said. I got together with her because
34:23
I couldn't ever imagine being bored.
34:25
Palmer could. So at the time when they got
34:27
together, she had no savings and didn't own a car, real estate or
34:31
kitchen appliances. Gaiman owned multiple houses.
34:34
He was too rich, too famous, too British, too awkward, too old,
34:37
and they didn't have great sexual chemistry.
34:40
But he appeared to be kind and stable, a family man, and they
34:43
shared a dark, fantastical aesthetic.
34:45
She also felt a little sorry for him.
34:47
He seemed lonely in spite of his fame, and Palmer found herself
34:51
hoping she could help him. He believed for a long time,
34:53
deep down, that people didn't actually fall in love, she wrote
34:56
in her book. But that's impossible, she told
34:59
him. He'd written stories and scenes
35:00
of people in love. That's the whole point, darling,
35:03
he said. Writers make things up.
35:06
All the red flags, right? Like all of them.
35:10
And it seems that for a long time they both had an open
35:11
relationship, which is absolutely fine.
35:13
They were chair partners sometimes also fine.
35:17
Again, all fine if they're consenting and adults.
35:20
But some of the stories seem a little dubious.
35:22
Like when a 36 year old Amanda picked up a 20 year old fan at
35:26
one of her concerts, slept with her, and then essentially just
35:30
passed her on to Neil. So again, she's finding someone
35:34
with whom she has a power imbalance and a massive like age
35:37
difference with. This person is 20 and vulnerable
35:40
and a fan and she's just like yes let me sleep with you until
35:43
I'm bored and then pass you on to my nearly 50 year old
35:47
husband. This was in 2012.
35:53
In 2012 Palmer met a 20 year old fan who asked to be referred to
35:56
as Rachel at a Dresden Dolls concert.
35:58
After one of Palmers next shows, the women had sex the morning
36:02
after Palmer snapped a few semi naked photos of Rachel and asked
36:05
if she could send one to gay men.
36:07
She and Palmer slept together a few more times, but then Palmer
36:09
seemed to lose interest in sex with her.
36:11
Six months after they met, Palmer introduced Rachel to
36:13
Gaman online, telling Rachel he'll love you.
36:16
The two struck up a correspondence that quickly
36:18
turned sexual, and Gaman invited her to his house in Wisconsin.
36:21
She packed the trip and asked Palmer to e-mail over if she had
36:24
any advice for pleasing Gaman in bed.
36:26
Palmer joked in response. I think the fun is finding out
36:29
on your own. With Gaman, Rachel says there
36:31
was never a blatant rupture of consent.
36:34
But he was always pressing her to do things that her and scared
36:37
her. Looking back, she feels Palmer
36:39
gave her to him like a toy. So again I have to ask, how much
36:45
did Amanda really know? How much was she involved?
36:47
How much was she aware of? What was her actual role in
36:50
this? It's creepy as hell.
36:52
Then there's another story in the article of Neil helping a
36:56
family friend by providing income and home, only to
36:59
completely take advantage and then threatened to take it all
37:03
away so he could keep abusing her.
37:04
He's like, are you seeing a pattern here?
37:07
You know, 11 allegation maybe could be fake or false or
37:13
exaggerated. But when you have so many women
37:17
having the same thing happened to them by the same man over and
37:19
over and over again, I just don't see how that could be
37:24
like, not true or fake it, just it, you know, I know I still
37:30
have to say allegedly, but I think we all know how I feel.
37:35
One of the people in whom Palmer confided about her marital
37:37
issues at the time was Caroline Wallner, a Potter who along with
37:40
her builder husband Philip, had been living on the Woodstock
37:43
property that Amanda Neil owned and working as a caretaker.
37:46
Or I think maybe just Neil owned it.
37:49
Gaiman had made them an offer that seemed too good to be true.
37:51
They would build an addition on one of the cabins on the land at
37:54
Gaiman's expense and in exchange Gaiman would sell them A5 acre
37:58
parcel allowing them to put a bond style home to share with
38:01
their three daughters. They tended to the garden, run
38:03
errands for guests and rehabilitated the buildings that
38:06
which needed plumbing and electrical work.
38:08
But their marriage of 11 years was falling apart too.
38:11
In 2017, Philip moved out of their house.
38:13
Walnut, 54, spent her days in bed crying and drinking.
38:16
She stopped eating and for the most part stopped working.
38:19
It was then gay men began paying her attention.
38:22
He would bring juices up to her cabin and fret she was losing
38:25
too much weight. The first time he touched her
38:27
was in December 2018. She was sitting on his couch
38:30
next to him, crying from exhaustion.
38:32
Gaeman told her. You need a hug.
38:34
She stood and he hugged her. Then he slid his hands down her
38:37
pants and into her underwear and squeezed her butt.
38:40
She does not recall saying or doing anything in response.
38:43
I was stunned, she said, which is a typical freeze response.
38:48
So even though this woman is older than his other victims,
38:51
she was still in a vulnerable position.
38:53
And again, it's like they predators can see that, isn't
38:56
it? Over the next few years, they
38:57
had a series of sexual encounters.
38:59
Always when Palmer was away, when gay man wasn't around, they
39:02
occasionally engaged in phone sex.
39:04
At first, Walnut, who hadn't been with anyone since Philip
39:06
left, went along willingly. But at the end of their second
39:09
encounter, she remembers asking gay men what Palmer would think
39:12
about their romance. He said Caroline, there is no
39:15
romance. And after that, she tried to
39:17
keep her distance from him, darting away when she saw him on
39:19
the estate. So the flight response, he was
39:23
difficult to avoid. He kept an egg incubator in
39:26
Walnuts cabin and would come down and check on it entering
39:29
without texting first. So he's just barging into her
39:32
home without asking, without telling her she doesn't have a
39:35
choice in the matter. Then there's another description
39:38
of an assault, which again, I'm not going to read out, but it's
39:40
followed by nothing changed. Walner had no income at the time
39:45
and was borrowing money from her sister to get by.
39:47
She worried that if she didn't appease gay men, he'd kick her
39:50
out of her house, and then she and her three daughters would
39:52
have nowhere to go. I like our trade.
39:55
She remember saying to him, you take care of me and I'll take
39:57
care of you. And there you have the fawning
40:00
response. So she then tells the story of
40:02
gay men attempting to be sexual with her while his son was
40:06
literally in the bed between them.
40:09
Like sleeping but in the bed. Again, won't read it out, but he
40:13
didn't have boundaries, Walner said.
40:14
I just remember thinking there was something really wrong with
40:17
him. And again, this is sadly another
40:19
pattern of behaviour because Scarlett tells a very similar
40:21
story herself, which we'll talk about in just a few moments.
40:25
Gaiman finally took back his offer of land and monetary
40:29
support for Walner, kicked her out of her home and then tried
40:31
to silence her with an NDA and paying money for her to get
40:35
therapy. Again, that's the pattern of
40:38
behaviour we've seen before. And I find out about the one
40:41
situation Amanda said. That poor woman, I can't believe
40:46
he did it again. So again, he did it again.
40:49
Like, how much did she know? I'm going to keep asking.
40:53
I think more people need to be talking about that, to be
40:55
honest. I mean, she's obviously not as
40:56
bad as gay men, but clearly maybe she could have allegedly
41:01
played a massive part in it. So the article switches back to
41:04
talking about Scarlett's experience here, and this next
41:06
part is so graphic and disturbing, disturbing and
41:10
disgusting that I cannot read it out loud.
41:13
The first time I read this, I actually gagged.
41:17
It's one of the worst things I've ever heard.
41:19
And if you need to skip this next part of the video, that's
41:23
fine. Go to the next chapter.
41:25
I absolutely would not blame you, but I will give you a
41:28
summary. And even the summary is bad.
41:33
Basically, Neil Gaiman, allegedly in one instance anally
41:39
raped Scarlett in the kitchen while his son was in the house.
41:43
He used literal butter as a replacement for lubricant and
41:48
then made her lick the butter and her own excrement off his
41:51
private parts. He made her shower while he
41:55
shoved lavender soap in her mouth.
41:57
On another occasion, he raped her, causing so much pain she
42:00
passed out on another. On another occasion, he made her
42:05
lick his own urine off of him. On another, he forced himself in
42:09
her mouth so hard she vomited and then made her eat her and
42:11
vomit. And then on another occasion, he
42:14
raped her in a hotel room, literally in front of his son
42:17
with only a duvet covering them. It's just the most vile, vile
42:24
thing imaginable. He Oh, no, no, it's, it's
42:30
unforgivable. So to go back to Chanel Contos's
42:33
book, Consent Laid Bare, which we talked about earlier, that
42:37
book talks about how there's different kinds of people who
42:39
commit sexual assault. And she says that for some
42:42
people, it's just a matter of opportunity.
42:44
You know, she writes that their offences are predatory acts, are
42:47
unplanned and show poor impulse control.
42:50
Sometimes with these people, their actions are quite
42:52
literally a matter of ignorance. You know they weren't educated
42:55
in what consent actually means. They're too busy selfishly
42:57
thinking about themselves to stop and ask the other person
43:01
wants. They're a product of a
43:02
misogynistic society the perpetuates rape culture and
43:06
their behaviour is not excusable.
43:07
And I do not want to downplay the harm these people do.
43:09
But I feel like at least in those cases, these people can
43:12
sometimes learn, reflect on their behaviour and absolutely
43:15
change for the better. Because they didn't necessarily
43:18
mean to cause harm, even though they did, you know, maybe they
43:21
misread signals or they genuinely made a mistake.
43:24
And while their victim doesn't need to forgive them, like it's
43:27
entirely for them, I do personally believe that like for
43:30
a lot of those people with self reflection and learning and
43:33
growth and genuine remorse, they can be better people and won't
43:37
do it again. You know, and I, I know, I know
43:40
it's going to sound controversial, but hear me out
43:41
here. And I believe that every single
43:43
person accidentally oversteps the boundary at some point in
43:46
their life. We've all accidentally done
43:48
something without consent. And I don't mean sexual here,
43:51
but like, you know, maybe, maybe we've gone in for a hug for
43:54
someone when they didn't want it without realising.
43:57
Maybe we've accidentally shared a friend's secret that they
44:00
didn't want us to tell. Maybe we've made a joke that
44:03
oversteps someone's boundaries. Those are I was making
44:09
accidental mistakes, accidentally of a stepping
44:12
boundaries because we, we weren't socially aware or we
44:15
weren't thinking, we were being selfish.
44:17
And I do believe that those kinds of things are like genuine
44:21
mistakes that everyone makes. And it doesn't necessarily make
44:24
someone inherently a bad person. It's kind of just part of being
44:27
human and part of learning and growing.
44:28
And I think the important thing is that, like in those cases, we
44:33
apologise, we learn and we do better.
44:36
And I kind of feel like for some people, they make those mistakes
44:42
in a sexual way. And it's terrible, it's bad,
44:45
it's awful, it's inexcusable. But I also kind of feel like
44:50
there is potential redemption there for people, if that makes
44:53
sense. And like I say, the victim
44:55
shouldn't have to forgive them if they don't want.
44:57
Like, it's not on them, like they don't have to.
44:59
But I do believe that at least when people mess up, they can be
45:03
better, they can do better, they can become better.
45:05
That's not what's happening in the Neil Gaiman case.
45:08
I don't believe this is an example of that.
45:11
He wasn't an opportunistic rapist.
45:13
He wasn't some silly little boy who misunderstood or misread a
45:17
situation. He was malicious.
45:19
However, he is trying to downplay this allegations as oh,
45:23
what a silly mistake. I'm just not socially aware.
45:26
What a silly, awkward man. And no, absolutely not.
45:30
So he has released a statement which says as I read through
45:33
this latest collection of accounts, there are moments I
45:35
half recognise and moments I don't.
45:37
Descriptions of things that happened sitting beside things
45:39
that emphatically did not happen.
45:41
I'm far from a perfect person but I have never engaged in non
45:44
consensual activity, sexual activity with anyone ever.
45:47
I went back to read the messages I exchanged with women around
45:50
and following the occasions that have subsequently been reported
45:52
as being abusive. The messages read now, as they
45:55
did when I received them, of two people enjoying consensual
45:58
sexual relationships and wanting to see one another again.
46:01
At the time wasn't those relationships.
46:02
They seemed positive and happy on both sides.
46:05
I also realised looking through them years later I could have
46:08
and should have done so much better.
46:09
I was emotionally available while being sexually available,
46:12
self focused and not as thoughtful as I should as I
46:15
could or should have been. I was obviously careless with
46:17
people's hearts and feelings and that's something I deeply
46:20
regret. It was selfish of me.
46:22
I was caught up in my own story and I ignored other people's.
46:25
I've spent months now taking a long hard look at who I've been
46:28
and how I've made people feel. Like most of us, I'm learning
46:31
and I'm trying to do the work needed.
46:32
I know that's not an overnight process.
46:35
I hope that with the help of good people, I'll continue to
46:37
grow. And like, if he'd, I don't know,
46:40
accidentally gone in for a kiss, would someone because he misread
46:43
the signals and he got it wrong. This might be acceptable if
46:46
he'd, I know, taken 1 back to his hotel room and they'd
46:48
engaged in a bit of consensual touching and then she tried to
46:51
stop him, but he he'd not quite got the message and then a
46:53
couple minutes later been like, oh, wait, sorry, Oh no, I
46:56
overstepped there. If he'd done something like
46:58
that, this might be an acceptable response.
47:01
You know, those are genuine mistakes where you may be
47:04
overstep but you didn't mean to, and then you apologise and get
47:07
better and grow like, and this would be an acceptable response
47:09
to that. But that's not what he did.
47:11
None of that is what happened. He wasn't just some silly little
47:14
socially awkward man risk reading signals.
47:17
He didn't just make someone a bit uncomfortable once and he
47:19
can't get away with that. Well, you know, I don't think it
47:22
was a consensual, so I guess I'll just do some learning.
47:24
He can't do that. This is a case of a 40 to 60
47:28
plus year old man repeatedly targeting younger and all
47:31
vulnerable women that he had power and control over,
47:34
repeatedly ignoring their literal and verbal pleas for him
47:36
to stop degrading them, objectifying them, assaulting
47:39
them, injuring them, and being entirely aware of what he was
47:42
doing. He often planned in advance how
47:44
and when he was going to do this.
47:46
He would buy them gifts, offer them money and homes, fly them
47:49
around the world to see him and meet him just so he could hurt
47:51
them. This is not one silly little
47:53
mistake of a socially awkward man.
47:55
This is a manipulative predator allegedly repeatedly knowing
48:00
what he's doing in hurting women.
48:02
If these stories are true and accurate, and I thoroughly
48:04
believe they are, this is a pattern of premeditated,
48:07
aggressive, violent and degrading behaviour from a man
48:10
who, like I say, knew exactly what he was doing.
48:12
His non apology statement is not enough and he is a danger to all
48:16
women. To go back to Chanel's book for
48:20
a moment, and while I don't want to deploy definitive labels to
48:23
anyone, and you know, I'm not going to say this is who gaming
48:25
is, I'm just saying at one point in the book she writes about
48:29
what she calls stylistic rapists as opposed to the opportunistic
48:32
ones. And I would just say that this
48:35
could potentially seem like a more accurate description of the
48:39
actions we've heard gay men carried out.
48:42
She writes. She writes that sadistic rapists
48:45
derive pleasure from being violent and sexually assaulting
48:48
someone. They've usually been terribly
48:49
abused as children and are likely to re offend regardless
48:52
of rehabilitation measures. It's hard to prevent this type
48:55
of rapist from perpetuating sexual assault.
48:57
To prevent this type of rapist, the generational cycle of abuse
49:00
must be stopped. The Vulture article ends with
49:02
Scarlett telling the story of how she and how she went to
49:05
Amanda and told her what Neil had been doing to her and asked
49:07
for help and basically got absolutely nothing to help her.
49:13
Just to remind you, Amanda Palmer is someone who apparently
49:15
prides herself on being an outspoken feminist who will
49:18
speak up for women and calls out domestic and sexual violence
49:20
against women, unless apparently it's her ex-husband doing it. 10
49:24
days after Gaman left New Zealand, Pavlovich went to
49:26
Palmer's house for dinner. She asked Palmer if she could
49:29
tell something in confidence and made her promise not to tell
49:31
Gaman. She begged the reassurance that
49:33
she would still keep her job as a child's nanny.
49:35
Palmer assured Pavlovich her employment was not in danger.
49:38
Sitting in the kitchen, Pavlovich told Palmer that gay
49:40
men had made a pass at her. She told Palmer about the bath.
49:43
I didn't have any choice in the matter, she said.
49:45
He just did it. She said he'd been having sex
49:47
with her ever since she well. She withheld some of the most
49:50
brutal details, but did not describe her experience as
49:53
sexual assault. She didn't yet see it that way,
49:55
which is completely common. Sometimes it takes people off
49:58
process. Palmer did not appear to be
50:01
surprised. 14 women have come to me about this, she said.
50:06
She mentioned that Gaiman had slept with another babysitter
50:08
during his first marriage and that she'd heard from other
50:10
women who were disturbed by their experiences with him.
50:15
Pavlovich waited until the end to tell Palmer about the child
50:17
being present in Auckland. Afterwards, she recalled, Palmer
50:20
was silent. She appeared shocked.
50:22
Palmer insisted that Pavlovich spend the night in her guest
50:24
room. She told her.
50:25
I've had to do this before and I can do this again.
50:28
I will take care of you. So again, clearly she knew.
50:33
She knew of at least 14 other women.
50:43
Not saying anything, Pavlovich received a text from Gaiman
50:48
saying. Amanda tells me you're having a
50:49
rough time and you're really upset with me about what we did.
50:51
I feel awful about this. Would you like to talk about it?
50:54
Is there anything I can do to make it better?
50:56
Pavlovich didn't respond immediately.
50:58
My reflex was to sit, my reflex was to fix the situation, she
51:03
tells me. The next day she wrote.
51:05
Hey, we'll speak soon, hope you're doing good.
51:08
Scarlett went on to tell a friend about the experience and
51:11
this one's partner was Chris Taylor, a doctor of psychology
51:15
who had lectured at the University of Auckland on
51:17
coercion, consent and rape. And thank God for these friends.
51:21
Although Pavlovich had never used the word rape or sexual
51:23
assault to describe what happened to her, both Anna Root,
51:26
the friend and Taylor believed gay men had raped her
51:28
repeatedly. Anna, who felt Palmer bore a
51:31
share of the blame. Replying to Palmer, she wrote
51:33
that the majority of my rage is directed at Neil.
51:35
But she couldn't understand why, with all Palmer knew about gay
51:38
men, she'd sent Scarlett into the situation.
51:41
Exactly. Did you not see this coming a
51:43
mile away? She said.
51:45
And yes, I know you asked him not to do that to her, but
51:47
honestly, the fact you even felt some this was something you
51:50
should ask is effed up in ways that defy comprehension.
51:54
Exactly. So at least you had someone
51:56
looking out for her eventually. And meanwhile Amanda was getting
51:59
gay men to go to therapy with a therapist called Muller and gay
52:04
men used something suddenly therapy sessions to text
52:07
Scarlett and try and manipulate her further.
52:10
So in the session with Muller, Palmer had said that Pablovich
52:13
was telling people he'd raped her and was planning to me, to
52:15
him. I wanted to kill myself, he
52:18
wrote. But I'm getting through it a day
52:20
at a time. It's been 2 weeks now and I'm
52:21
still here. Fragile, but not great, like he
52:25
said that to Scarlett. Like you, you told on me, I want
52:29
to kill myself. Like that's pure manipulation.
52:32
I he expressed dismay. A Naru's message which Palmer
52:36
had told him about. I'm a monster in it, he wrote,
52:39
and Amanda seems to have bought it.
52:40
Hook line, hook, line and sinker, apologising for bringing
52:44
any upset into Pablovich's life, he wrote.
52:46
I thought that we were a good thing and a very consensual
52:48
thing indeed. So do you see what I mean?
52:51
This is not like some silly little mistake that he's
52:55
remorseful for and learning from.
52:57
He's manipulating the whole situation and actually his
53:00
therapist is helping him. But Scarlett responded to this
53:02
with fear and began phoning to try and make him happy again.
53:05
Because that's what traumatised people do.
53:08
The therapist, like Neil Gaiman's therapist, spoke to the
53:12
reporter who wrote this article and said that he'd also gone out
53:15
of his way to speak to Scarlett too, to try and, like, make
53:18
everything go away for Neil. It.
53:19
Oh, it's horrific, this, this person.
53:22
Mullah, for his part, tells me that ethical boundaries prevent
53:25
him from sharing anything about his sessions with gay men.
53:27
But he apparently felt comfortable sharing details of
53:29
his conversation with Papovich. Scarlett, what she called to
53:33
speak to me about, was feeling pressured from very diverse,
53:37
mostly older women in her community to take action that
53:41
she wasn't sure she felt comfortable taking.
53:43
I accompanied her on her journey to help her figure out the
53:45
answers for herself to that issue.
53:50
So basically he's helping manipulate Scarlett into
53:53
downplaying her own experience just like Neil was.
53:55
And I'm, oh you know what? I'm so sick of men like this.
53:59
And also Bonnie Blue does as well.
54:00
Bonnie Blue does it Who? When they're called out for
54:03
doing something that harms people, especially young people,
54:05
they just start blaming everything on older women.
54:08
Everything is older women's fault.
54:10
It's like, oh these damn older women.
54:11
They immediately try and discredit older women because
54:14
apparently intelligence, self assured women with power
54:17
intimidate them. The older women in this story or
54:20
in the case of Bonnie Blue where she's like, oh, and the people
54:22
who are mad at me for like, you know, cheating on people and you
54:25
spreading as to you, it's just these older women like she did
54:28
as well. But the these older women are
54:32
just women who are experienced and knowledgeable who are
54:36
finally standing up to misogynists or bad behaviour or
54:39
dangerous behaviour or people taking advantage of young
54:42
people. They're speaking out to try and
54:44
keep young people safe from harm and in response the people who
54:47
are causing that harm are just turning around trying to
54:50
discredit them as just elder women because they want to be
54:53
able to continue to abuse and take advantage of young
54:56
vulnerable people without anyone calling them out.
54:58
I'm, I'm repeating myself, I'm rambling, it's disgusting is the
55:03
point I'm trying to make. Following all of this, Scots
55:06
mental health suffered, not surprising.
55:09
And Amanda took back her promise of letting her keep her job and
55:12
only offered empty statements like I can't offer you exactly
55:16
what you want from me, but I can still be here.
55:19
Remember this? Scarlett replied with Babe, I'm
55:23
more alone than I've ever been in my life.
55:26
And she wished she'd never agreed to be their nanny and
55:28
said if I hadn't got on on that first ferry I wouldn't be where
55:31
I am now. The article goes on to say that
55:34
that night Pablovich texted Gayman.
55:36
Amanda keeps saying she'll help me but it seems more
55:38
philosophical rather than she will like she will actually
55:41
help. 2 minutes later she added. I've been thinking of you so
55:44
much. Gayman replied that he'd be
55:45
happy to help in a tangible way. Pavlov received an NDA dated to
55:50
the first night of her employment when he'd suggested
55:53
she take a bath, and she signed it a monthly as she received a
55:57
bank transfer from Gayman $1700 for her babysitting work, which
56:01
is nothing. Two months after that, she
56:03
received the first of nine payments totalling around $9200.
56:08
So again, he fell back into the just trying to silence his
56:10
victims with an NDA and money. It's disgusting, disgraceful.
56:15
In January 2023, Pavlovich filed a police report accusing gay men
56:19
of sexual assault. At the station, she gave a
56:21
formal interview about the case. After she told the officers her
56:23
story, one of them told her that Palmer's cooperation will be
56:26
essential for the case to move forward.
56:27
Pavlovich assured them Palmer would participate.
56:30
I said to them, she's a public feminist and she, she knows what
56:33
happened. She'll want to protect me.
56:35
I'm sure she'll speak. When the police contacted Palmer
56:37
later that year, she declined to talk with them.
56:40
Gay men never spoke with the police either.
56:42
So Amanda Palmer, in my opinion, really does not seem to care at
56:46
all. Palmer and gay men together are
56:49
awful, awful people. Obviously gay men is so much
56:51
worse, but they have repeatedly allegedly taken advantage of
56:56
young women in one way or another and I just find it
56:58
absolutely disgusting. Awful.
57:02
OK, and that's where the article ends.
57:04
That's all. We're going to talk about that
57:06
for now, But if you'd like to read more about the topics of
57:08
boundaries and consent and learn more about it, then I can
57:11
recommend a few books. Some of them I spoke about in
57:13
this video so far. Some of them are new and these
57:16
include Consent Laid bare by Chanel Contos UN F Your
57:20
boundaries Build better relationships to consent,
57:22
communication and expressing your needs by fate Harper good
57:26
sexual citizenship How to create a sexually safer world by Ellen
57:29
Fredericks and not that bad. Dispatches from Rape Culture,
57:32
which is a series of essays edited by Roxanne Gay.
57:36
And of course, if you have been affected by any of the issues in
57:38
this video and you are looking for help or you want to have
57:41
support organisations which are helping other women, then please
57:44
know you're absolutely not alone and there are loads of resources
57:46
available. In the UK.
57:48
You can get in touch with the Survivors Trust or Survivors
57:50
Network. There's also Rape Crisis England
57:52
and Wales who have a 24 hour support line.
57:55
If you're in the USA, then Rain that is Rai Double N is a really
58:00
helpful resource and you can also check out the National
58:02
Sexual Violence Resource Centre. Or if you are from Australia or
58:06
New Zealand, then I provided a list or then I provided a link
58:11
to a list of resources available on I Survive, which will take
58:14
you to different resources for individual places and stuff.
58:17
And they're all in the source document below.
58:19
So please go check them out if you need to.
58:22
You can also read Jill Simmons book Consent and memoir, which
58:26
is fascinating. She looks like what the
58:30
experience was like for her as a 16 and 17 year old girl, how she
58:33
reflected on it in her 40s when she was still kind of like
58:36
romanticising a bit. And now as a much older woman
58:39
looking back and be like, oh crap, maybe things weren't how I
58:42
thought they were. It's it's fascinating.
58:45
I still I've thoughts on it. I'm not going to it now anyway
58:49
yeah, but that's about all I wanted to say today.
58:51
I'm sorry this was a difficult video.
58:52
I know it's very heavy. I know it wasn't very nice, but
58:56
if you got through it, thank you for doing this sitting through
58:59
this. It'd be great to hear your
59:01
thoughts in the comments. But as always, please just stay
59:03
respectful and mindful of others.
59:06
Be kind, be nice to each other. And then and yeah, thank you so
59:10
much for watching. If you'd like to help support me
59:13
in my channel, I do have Patreon where you can go and see like
59:16
some extra photos and stuff that I take like kind of behind the
59:20
scenes stuff. I do a lot of nature photography
59:22
that I post over on Patreon for everyone, plus the photos of
59:25
Kyra and just kind of my day-to-day life.
59:27
And you can also get exclusive stickers and prints and fun
59:30
stuff like that sent out to you over on Patreon.
59:32
And AD revenue is always tough this time of year.
59:34
So having Patreon is just really helpful for making sure I can
59:38
actually pay my bills and keep making videos.
59:40
So thank you so much for everyone who's already
59:42
supporting me over there. And thank you to anyone else who
59:44
may be considering it. But for now, honestly, the best
59:47
thing you can do is just keep watching videos, sharing them
59:49
around, leave a like subscribe if you haven't.
59:52
And just know that I appreciate all your support and kindness.
59:56
So thank you so much. I hope you all have a wonderful
59:58
rest of your day. Thank you for taking the time to
1:00:00
listen to this. And thank you for taking the
1:00:02
time to hear these wonderful women's stories and how brave
1:00:06
and strong they are. And yeah, that's I'm rambling.
1:00:10
Sorry. Thank you for watching.
1:00:12
I'll see you again soon. Bye.