Latest / Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface / Truth in the Gospel of Secrets

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Truth in the Gospel of Secrets · Kaleidoscope - Perspectives Beyond The Surface

0:03
Welcome to Kaleidoscope. My name is Ruby Ray
0:05
Liu and today I'm joined by Ken Wortley, former
0:10
pastor and middle school coach and current resident
0:14
in Brazil, which really intrigues me. Ken, welcome
0:18
to Kaleidoscope. Thank you. Good morning. Good
0:21
evening. Good afternoon. Whatever time's on your
0:25
end. Great. Glad to be here. This is going to
0:28
be fun for us. I believe so. We are also joined
0:32
by my co -host, Luigi. Luigi, welcome. Thank
0:37
you. Luigi here, former cart pusher. Reformed
0:42
shopping cart pusher. Reformed shopping. Please
0:46
elaborate on when you were pushing carts and
0:48
why. When I was a teenager and I needed a job,
0:53
I worked at a grocery store. I had to push carts.
0:58
I'm bigger than this. I got dreams. Well, then,
1:02
in that case, I am Ruby Ray Liu, former bookseller,
1:07
because that was my first job. Still, better
1:09
job. I would have killed to have that job as
1:13
a teenager. Working in a bookstore? Wow. I think
1:17
we've had this conversation informally, Ruby.
1:19
And I was a conservative Baptist preacher in
1:21
the United States. Hey -o! We're going to talk
1:24
about that. That was your first job? That was,
1:29
that was my career. I worked really hard to get
1:32
a master's of divinity in Philadelphia and preached
1:35
and was a very successful pastor. I did a lot
1:39
of good messages. Most of them were anti -gay,
1:43
anti -LGBT. So yeah. Wow. You've come a long
1:46
way because this is an expressly LGBTQ podcast.
1:51
Yeah, here I am. Here I am. Wow. Wow. I'm super,
1:56
super interested in that. When we start Kaleidoscope,
2:02
we always do kind of a quick fire round in the
2:04
beginning. And my question then would be, what
2:08
is the moment for you that changed and you went,
2:12
hey, LGBTQ people should be welcomed into the
2:16
church? I never got there in the church. In my
2:19
career as a pastor, I never welcomed. LGBTQ people
2:25
at all. First part of my life was really suppression
2:30
of those kinds of thoughts. And I didn't entertain
2:35
the idea that God could create gay people. And
2:39
I knew that God had made a big mistake by creating
2:43
me. So I saw myself as one who was against against
2:49
God's will and God's way. When did I come out?
2:52
I wish I had a dramatic story to tell the audience
2:59
today. As my marriage began to crumble and began
3:03
to really un on the ropes as you say, my wife
3:07
and I lived in the same house with our two sons
3:11
and we really didn't communicate at all for probably
3:14
up to a year. lived in the same house, didn't
3:17
communicate. All of our marriage of 20 -some
3:20
years, we never brought up the issue of the subject
3:26
of being gay. We knew that there was this elephant
3:30
in our room in our marriage, but we never addressed
3:32
it. We could smell it, we could touch it, we
3:36
could feel it. but we never even addressed it,
3:39
ever, ever, ever. And the pressure was added
3:42
that the American society and culture began to
3:45
change. An American president began to speak
3:48
about gay issues and gay couples. Oprah Winfrey
3:52
had a guy that was married to a straight woman.
3:56
And all of that was pressure on me as I was an
3:59
adult. My wife and I lived together, and yet
4:04
we never talked about it. One day, out of the
4:07
blue and I can't tell you why. She came down
4:10
the stairs in where I was living in the lower
4:13
portion of the house and she said, how long have
4:18
you known you were gay? And that's my coming
4:22
out story. I bumbled and fumbled and began to
4:27
sweat because I didn't know what to say. I didn't
4:29
want to sound stupid and I didn't want to sound
4:32
like I was going to tell the truth. Because most
4:36
of my life was a life of telling lies and hiding.
4:40
And so the, the title of the book is the gospel
4:44
of secrets. So all of my life was a secret. Yeah.
4:48
As, as. Yeah, go ahead. That is, you say it's
4:53
not a dramatic story for me. That is extremely
4:56
dramatic and relatable actually. Well, because
5:01
if I may. I think it's common. I think it's common.
5:05
Let me tell you what I told her. I said, I'm
5:08
not gay. And she looked at me and she went, you
5:11
really do need some help. You really do need
5:14
to face who you are as a person. She says, I'm
5:17
known for a long time that you're homosexual.
5:22
So I went, okay, so what do you want to do? And
5:26
she says, I really want you to move out. I really
5:28
want you to get. your life together, your act
5:31
together. So it was her. It was her that actually
5:35
shined the light on my personal life and my orientation.
5:41
Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's incredible. If I may,
5:46
like I will share my coming out story just briefly
5:49
because I've spoken a lot about it on this podcast.
5:53
I don't want to bore Luigi. But I was in severe
5:57
denial as well and didn't know what to do was
6:01
openly cross -dressing and embracing my femininity
6:05
But because I'm in this conservative society
6:09
China had no way of getting the medication that
6:13
I needed Until one day I met a fellow trans girl
6:18
from the UK and she gave me a contact for getting
6:22
Non prescription estrogen. And when I held that
6:26
box in my hand, it was a, like a lightning rod
6:29
moment. And I came out to my partner, my wife,
6:33
and we're still married and we're still happy.
6:36
Um, I was outed to my parents by my sister who
6:41
is lesbian. Uh, that's my story. My mom's birthday,
6:45
I found her and she said, Hey, I read your letter.
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It's okay. It's not really okay. It hasn't been
6:51
okay. Our relationship is severely damaged, but
6:55
it is healing slowly. So I have hope. Wow. Amazing.
7:02
I didn't know you had an internal struggle. I
7:05
had it. Yeah. Yeah. Internal struggles put it
7:09
mildly. there's a good chunk of people that really
7:15
don't understand that dual life, that we have
7:20
to live, that we live. I spoke to a gay friend
7:24
here and he says, I don't understand what you're
7:27
talking about telling the truth in lies. He says,
7:29
the whole gay community lies. And I went, wow,
7:32
okay, gee. He goes, we were born liars. And I
7:38
went, I don't know. I don't know if that's true,
7:40
but. Yeah, I was surprised by his response to
7:45
my book, by saying, this call to tell the crew,
7:49
he goes, every day we have to lie. And I went,
7:53
okay, it was just different for me to hear, you
7:58
know. It's an interesting take, every day we
8:01
have to lie. Yeah. I can understand what that
8:04
person's saying, without diverging too much,
8:06
just real quick. Yeah. I guess like you can consider
8:09
polite society Kind of, no, lie, lie -ish, if
8:15
that's the word. We do lie in as much as we are
8:19
being polite, I guess. You know, for example.
8:21
Yeah. Yes, exactly. Hey, good morning. How are
8:24
you? Oh, I'm good. Are you really good, though?
8:26
I mean, I say it. Right. But I'm not going to
8:28
tell them what I really think. Anyway, that's
8:31
just diverging. Exactly. To protect yourself.
8:34
No, I think you're onto something. I do think
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you're onto something because... If it is true
8:38
that the LGBTQ population are born liars and
8:42
have to lie every single day, then that is true
8:45
for everyone. Everyone has to lie every single
8:50
day to hide the truth of themselves. And we touched
8:54
on it with another guest who said he has cis
9:01
straight men coming into his hostel looking for
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hookups. That situation exists because they are
9:11
lying to themselves because they have to lie.
9:13
It's not because they're a gang. Yeah, it's interesting.
9:19
There's a great book out called Why Do We Lie
9:21
to Ourselves? I'm trying to get it from Amazon,
9:25
but somebody told me that I should read that
9:27
book because it's like, why do people lie to
9:29
themselves? They need to protect themselves.
9:32
It's a self -protection kind of a psychological
9:36
move. I don't know, I was just taking back Ray
9:39
and I didn't understand, I didn't respond to...
9:43
this guy, as well as what you just stated. I
9:48
wish, I wish I could have thought of an answer.
9:51
I just didn't think about, I haven't thought
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about being born using a liar lying as, as a
10:00
mechanism to continue our lives. Yeah, I wouldn't,
10:05
I wouldn't blame you for not having a response
10:09
immediately. I've spent a lot of time thinking
10:11
about it because It still happens on a daily
10:14
basis where somebody can ask me a question that
10:17
blindsides me. Because suddenly I'm confronted
10:20
with the reality of everything that I've done
10:22
in my life to hide this struggle, not because
10:27
I want to hide, not because I hate myself, but
10:30
because I am trying to stay safe. When I was
10:35
first... The first conversation I ever had with
10:38
my therapist at the end, it was the onboarding
10:41
to see if she wants to actually be my therapist.
10:44
She asked, what would I say to the person that
10:48
I am now if my personality were split into feminine
10:52
and masculine? Because both of these things exist
10:55
in everyone. What would the feminine say to the
11:00
masculine? Right now, if I had a frank conversation
11:04
and the response, even though I had never thought
11:07
of it in my life was thank you for keeping me
11:11
alive. Yeah. And that is why the deception, the,
11:16
the, the hiding exists. Yeah. You know, I can
11:20
go, um, going back to my story, not that I want
11:23
to tell Michael's story as much, but you know,
11:27
I really. I really developed a lifestyle of lying
11:32
and some people learn to tell the truth. I learned
11:39
to lie really well and I learned to cover it
11:42
really well. Because theologically, theologically,
11:47
I knew that that was really crucial. I was born
11:52
and raised a Baptist and mom and dad expected
11:57
me to be very religious and to be very spiritual.
12:00
I was pushed or encouraged to become a good pastor,
12:06
to find a wife, to find the first church and
12:10
begin to preach God's word. All of that were
12:15
layers and layers and layers and layers of years
12:20
and days and minutes in which I really was never
12:24
authentic with my wife. with my kids, with my
12:29
job, with my church members, with my friends,
12:33
with myself. It just was an impossible lifestyle
12:37
that I was living. And it took its toll. It does
12:40
take its toll on your health and your mind and
12:43
your thinking. And you look for destructive ways
12:48
to express your urges as a homosexual man. Ken,
12:52
you were a pastor. and you stopped being a pastor,
12:56
you wrote a book, the name of your book is, say
12:58
it again, just real quick. The Gospel of Secrets
13:01
in Memoir and Proof. So, you say you were pushed
13:06
into being a pastor, essentially, or it was just
13:09
like, your life, your family, all very strongly
13:13
religious. Your parents, were they also in the
13:17
church, like pastors, things like that? The church,
13:20
Luigi, the church was an extension of our family.
13:23
When the church was open. We were there. A great
13:26
story is when I was a preteen, my grandparents
13:32
and my aunts and uncles would set up chairs in
13:36
the living room as they ironed and do housework.
13:39
And I was in the front preaching with an open
13:42
Bible. I was kind of moved into that way. I had
13:47
an older brother. I had an older brother who
13:50
was not so uh, religious. And so he smoked and
13:56
he drank and he went with girls that do, you
13:59
know, all that whole line. Me? No, no, no, no.
14:03
I was a people. I was, I still am kind of a little
14:07
people pleaser. I like to please people. Right.
14:11
Okay. So can I ask, so now you're out, you know,
14:16
openly gay, but, and you say, you know, one day
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your, your wife, you know, at a tipping point
14:23
said, you know, you are gay. But, so you were,
14:29
and correct me if I'm wrong, obviously, if you
14:31
were denying it to yourself, did you ever, growing
14:34
up, in your life, up until that point, know you
14:36
were gay or had, you know, personal kinds of,
14:39
I don't know, thoughts or desires and you just
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thought, you know, these are just thoughts, ignore
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them? And I ask this now because I think I have
14:49
something we can discuss. later on. That's a
14:54
really interesting kind of dynamic to your story.
14:58
And I think it will answer a lot of questions
15:00
about religion and homosexuality and how they
15:05
kind of antagonize each other. You know, theologically,
15:09
I'd like to go back to seminary to see where
15:12
they are now. Theology and the church was pretty
15:17
divided over the issue. So, of course, I was
15:21
on one side of the issue and preached against
15:25
it. Very few churches and very few theologians
15:28
were all saying, yeah, we need to redefine some
15:32
of these scriptures. We need to relook at some
15:35
of the scriptures. For me, that wasn't a possibility.
15:39
Was there a time, and this is the question I
15:42
hear a lot from my podcast, people that ask me
15:45
questions. When was the time you really knew
15:47
you were gay? Yeah. And you know what? I don't
15:51
like that question. Okay. Because it probably
15:56
shouldn't be answered by anyone really. When
15:59
did you know you were gay? When did you really
16:02
come to terms with who you are as a person? Right,
16:08
yeah. When did I know I was gay? I began the
16:13
journey when she voiced the word, how long have
16:17
you known you were gay? I have never even used
16:20
that. I went to school a couple days later and
16:23
I was telling my school teacher friend, and I
16:28
told her, I says, you know, I said, I think we're
16:31
getting a divorce. And she says, oh no, no, you
16:33
can't get a divorce. She says, you probably need
16:35
to do some counseling. I know this great person
16:37
that could do marriage counseling. And I says,
16:40
yeah, but Marcy, I think I'm gay. It was the
16:44
first time I spit those words out. I kind of
16:49
held back a little bit thinking, wow, you just
16:53
said it. That was amazing for me to say out loud.
16:59
And she looked at me like, what? You're gay?
17:02
How did you know you were gay? And all that kind
17:04
of thing. So that was a whole nother discussion.
17:08
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, go ahead, Brad. I want
17:14
to say, I like to tell stories. The whole book
17:16
is about stories. By all means, yeah. My mother
17:20
was in her 90s and very proud of her son and
17:24
pastor and school teacher. And very proud that
17:29
I was married and had two kids and she was delighted
17:34
about the marriage and the family. I just, I
17:38
thought I'm never going to tell my mom, no matter
17:40
what, I'm never going to tell my mom that I'm
17:43
gay. I'm never, she's never going to read it.
17:46
She's never going to find out. I'm never gonna
17:48
do this. But every single day she would say,
17:52
okay, I found this pastor friend of mine who
17:54
does marriage counseling and he's gonna help
17:58
you get your marriage back together. I said,
17:59
mom, we gotta stop this. So every day I'd pick
18:03
her up and she would start in with that endless
18:08
litany of. You know, when are you going to, when
18:11
are you going to go back to your wife? When are
18:13
you going to, I said, mom, we were just living
18:15
together in, I was in the basement. She goes,
18:19
so finally, um, I told her, I said, you know,
18:23
the problem is with me. I'm homosexual. And when
18:31
I said that, I kind of regretted it because she
18:35
just wept. She wept for, for days, for weeks.
18:39
A couple of months later, she fell out of bed
18:42
and broke her hip and had surgery and came back
18:47
in the room after she was recovering. And I said,
18:50
how are you doing? She said, well, I can't handle
18:53
living in the same city as you. So I'm going
18:57
to move back to Michigan to be with your brother.
19:00
I can't help you. I don't know when this started.
19:03
When do you think this started, this gay thing?
19:07
And I said, it probably started, I don't know,
19:11
in your womb? Yeah, yeah. Before I was born and
19:17
that wasn't good news for her to hear. Anyways,
19:21
yeah. I struggle with this kind of viewpoint
19:26
from the church and from religious people. It's
19:30
one that my brother also Used he said he he framed
19:35
it perfectly actually even from a from a point
19:38
of ignorance. He said It's like you're saying
19:42
God made a mistake and God doesn't make mistakes
19:45
Yeah, well, that's the point. It's not a mistake
19:50
It's just who I am. It's just what I am. It does
19:55
not come from anywhere if I'm not a religious
20:00
person myself, but If God made me this way, it
20:04
was with intent. And that is the only thing that
20:08
needs to be known. It doesn't need to be understood.
20:12
I don't understand straight people. I've tried.
20:15
I tried so hard. What? You never told me. You're
20:21
funny. That's cool. Yes. You know, it's not a
20:25
choice getting, getting that to live with that
20:29
point of view. that it's not a choice, not any
20:33
more than me choosing I have blue eyes, you know?
20:37
It's human choice. And to let that sink in to
20:42
our soul is really, really important. It's a
20:46
crucial step, because if we see it as a choice,
20:51
then it's different. Yeah, and I think... To
20:56
add to that, I think this is the problem with
20:58
sexuality is that people see it as a dichotomy.
21:02
You're either or. And so that's why people probably
21:05
ask you the question, which now that you say
21:07
it to me this way, I'll think about how I ask
21:10
it in the future. When did you know? Or when
21:13
did you become? But they treat it like a dichotomy,
21:16
but really, you know, thought has been from scholars
21:23
in the last, I don't know. a couple decades maybe,
21:25
that, you know, sexuality, gender, whatever,
21:28
it's fluid. And if we recognize it as fluid,
21:31
you're right. There cannot be a point when you
21:35
decide to be something that is authentic, which
21:40
I hate to use the word, but authentic in as much
21:43
as that's the starting point. It was just denying
21:48
it or, you know. Yeah. Hiding it because for
21:54
whatever reason, for whatever reason we have
21:56
to do it. And I mean, we know why people don't
22:00
come out and hide their sexuality, obviously.
22:05
I have a question. Okay, go ahead. Two questions.
22:10
How did you reconcile this? And the second question,
22:14
or how did you reconcile the unthought that you
22:17
were a mistake in God's eyes into a you aren't?
22:20
And the other question is right now there is
22:23
a movement of queer people called lgb without
22:27
the t because they are trying to it's kind of
22:30
like a pick me situation where we're better than
22:34
trans people because we're not so uh quote unquote
22:38
extreme what would you say to them you know let
22:40
me think about that one it's it's hard thinking
22:48
about theology and how to reconcile myself. I
22:56
need to be honest and say that was a long struggle,
23:01
a long process of therapy. I went to four or
23:06
five different therapists who just prescribed
23:10
drugs for me to continue to live and a sleeping
23:16
pill. pill to wake up with, a pill to be depressed.
23:20
And so I had like five different pills that I
23:23
was taking. I finally came to a therapist who
23:27
had no prescription pad, but just wanted to listen
23:31
and to unlearn. I like that word, unlearn, some
23:35
thinking that I had bought into the basis of
23:41
my life, breaking apart the foundations that
23:45
I had built. my lies and my life. She helped
23:49
me. She asked me if I had ever journaled and
23:53
I'm just like, I don't journal. I'll write things
23:55
down. And she said, I really would like you to
23:57
start journaling, start writing things down about
24:01
everything from your food to your drink, to your
24:05
thinking, to your behavior. And so that's how
24:09
I began to think about my life and began to write.
24:13
And so it became kind of an addiction for me
24:16
to write and began to write titles of books or
24:21
what people had said or to write what a young
24:25
man would say to me about, well, we're all lying.
24:28
So writing down life and then going back and
24:32
looking to build this powerful, really powerful.
24:35
I think about my friend Ray Bolts, who's a Christian
24:39
singer. And I wouldn't expect you guys maybe
24:42
from not the area of the United States to remember
24:46
him or know him. It kind of made his own story
24:50
about coming out. But he wrote us this great
24:55
song called, God Knows I Tried. And he writes,
25:02
when they said I was a sinner, I was struggling
25:06
with my youth and with the hope that God could
25:11
change me. I believed that it was the truth.
25:14
So I spent my whole life trying to be what they
25:18
said I should. And on the inside, I was dying
25:22
because I never really could. I was so good at
25:28
pretending like an actor on a stage. In the end,
25:32
nobody knew me. Only the roles that I portrayed,
25:37
I loved that. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking
25:41
about. Yeah. I don't know about your second question,
25:45
Ray. I'm still kind of struggling with that.
25:50
And I live in a culture of Brazil. Brazil is
25:53
so, it's such a different kind of a culture here
26:00
with the LGBT group. You can have a trans daughter
26:08
or son. But you can't talk about it. You can't
26:14
bring it up. You can't address it. It's kind
26:17
of similar to my situation. You can have a gay
26:21
son or a lesbian daughter, and everybody knows
26:25
that nobody's talking about it. Nobody's affirming
26:28
it. Yeah, Ruby and I are familiar with this,
26:31
actually, because we know someone from Brazil
26:33
who is queer. Yeah. Ruby, what do you think?
26:35
He loves listening to podcasts. Yeah, wow. I'm
26:43
struggling to figure out ways to articulate as
26:47
well, because there's this torrent of anti -queer
26:53
media and rhetoric from multiple, it seems like
26:58
many sources, but really it's coming from one
27:02
or two controlling points. And those are predominantly
27:05
staged in the US, unfortunately, which is ironic
27:09
because that used to be. Yeah. And it's all power
27:12
plays. For example, the anti -LGBTQ movement
27:16
in South Africa comes from a place I like to
27:18
refer to as the Cape Town mafia. It's a rich
27:21
conservative think tank in Cape Town, which is
27:25
linked into politics. And they drive that. That's
27:28
what they do because they have money. Right.
27:32
And it's probably, I'm guessing, Thai theological
27:37
church people. People that I don't believe that
27:42
the church is exclusive by nature. So people
27:45
that believe they are theological, but I don't
27:48
think that they are actually. Personal thought.
27:52
I don't think that theology is exclusive in any
27:55
way. No, obviously it's not, but. I made a statement
28:00
at a cocktail party a couple of weeks ago that
28:03
I said that the church is really a scam. And
28:07
I don't have a filter too well. Neither do we,
28:12
don't worry. The people that were there didn't
28:16
take it well. And I said, you know, I looked
28:19
back at the church and I really realized that
28:22
it's a controlling group, organization. it's
28:26
a controlling group of people. And the more that
28:29
they can control and the more that they can have
28:32
their fingers in controlling, the better. So
28:36
when they put up media, things like that in the
28:40
United States and Africa or wherever in the world,
28:45
the issue is control. I don't know how to control
28:50
a trans population. I don't know how to control
28:54
a homosexual son. I think you really touched
28:58
that. I think you're right. You're right. Thanks.
29:03
You're right to a degree. I would agree in that
29:06
the people who are saying I don't know how to
29:08
control are, you know, not the people, not this
29:12
secret cabal of people at the top, but just regular
29:14
everyday people. For me, I always bring this
29:18
down to my own conspiracy that the reason there's
29:21
so much focus on, let's say, for example, trans
29:24
people being an issue in society is it is a distraction
29:29
from the greater issues of government and a small
29:34
selection of people, a small group, who is attempting
29:39
to maintain power and distract people from real
29:42
issues. Like job security, like a failing economy,
29:46
things like that. It's really a veiled class
29:50
issue and it's just distraction. Just trying
29:55
to get people emotional in order to avoid the
30:01
real issue at hand. Sorry if I sound redundant,
30:04
but so when, you know, that stuff, I have no
30:07
truck with that kind of stuff because I just
30:08
think it's nonsense. And for the people who are,
30:10
you know, staunchly you know, fighting to, you
30:14
know, maintain this kind of heteronormativity.
30:16
I just think, like, how are you so happy? Like,
30:21
do you not see the misery of your life when you
30:23
have to, I don't know, pay a mortgage, make money,
30:27
make sure you have job security, worry about
30:29
health care, but no, instead it's, I don't want
30:31
my kids to be turned into gay people or trans
30:34
people at school by teachers. For whatever reason,
30:37
it's just so absurd, so wrong -headed. tonight,
30:43
today, that are gay and are religious, they'll
30:48
have the need to be involved in church, in church
30:51
work, in theology. So there's that need still.
30:57
And so somebody would say, well, what do you
30:59
want me to do? Just like, leave the church like
31:02
you did? And I went, well, yeah, but that's not
31:06
so easy. You do have to do some theological work.
31:11
You do have to think and reason and be able to
31:15
come up with a, if it's scripture, you have to
31:18
come up with some scripture that you can live
31:21
with and center on thinking about God as this
31:28
mighty, powerful force in your life. And think
31:33
about spirituality. Think about some aspects
31:36
of life that isn't so restrictive. I mean, how
31:40
hard would it be to reinterpret, you know, the
31:44
Bible from a queer perspective? I mean, God put
31:47
down... What? Oh, come on. Didn't God put down
31:50
after the flood, after Noah's flood, didn't he
31:52
put down, like, a rainbow? And then didn't that
31:55
represent his, like... Luigi. Okay, correct me
31:58
if I'm wrong. How hard can it be? It's hard.
32:01
It's really hard. Okay. It's hard in as much
32:06
as, go ahead. There is a host of scriptures that
32:11
need to be re -done, re -thought, re -gone over,
32:17
in your mind, in your mind. Right. I'll bring
32:22
this up because it was so hard for me. I took
32:25
my two sons out for lunch. about a couple of
32:29
months later, and I said, okay, guys, I need
32:32
to let you know that your mom and I are getting
32:34
a divorce, and I need to let you know that your
32:40
dad is gay, un -gay. And my one son said, I said,
32:46
well, does anybody have any questions? And my
32:49
son said, yeah, let me get this straight. Trading,
32:53
having sex with guys. You're treating the family
32:57
for having sex with guys and it was it was like
33:01
and I I went all pretty yeah Well, that was hard.
33:07
That was hard for him. You see what you want
33:09
to see you hear what you want to hear. Yeah,
33:11
yeah, right I do think So yes from a from one
33:18
perspective you could say that we need to personally
33:22
people who have been brought up within a specific
33:25
church, for example, need to rethink about certain
33:29
scriptures. But we need to remember that, as
33:32
you said before, the church did not want to be
33:38
this, but over time it has become an instrument
33:41
of control. And that fact alone means that scripture
33:46
has been interpreted in order to control and
33:51
exclude. So the baseline of that scripture does
33:56
not need to be reinterpreted at all. If you run
33:58
it back all the way before any, any translations
34:02
or anything, it's just inclusive and it protects
34:06
women. It protects children. Does not police
34:10
identity and sexuality. Yes. Yes. I had forgot
34:17
the fact that my brand of Baptists in the United
34:22
States split over the Southern Baptists over
34:26
the slavery issue. They looked at scripture and
34:30
said slavery is wrong. So it's kind of that simple.
34:35
Thank you, Ray. It is that simple. You know,
34:38
when you think about control or uncontrol, yeah.
34:41
Now, are there, okay. So people said some people
34:44
had trouble leaving the church, but is there
34:46
must be queer churches out there in the world.
34:50
You know, welcoming for queer people. Presently.
34:53
Yes, I think there is. I believe I haven't been
34:55
back to the United States in a while, but I think
34:58
the United States has a proliferation of that.
35:01
At least inclusive churches. Inclusive. I continue
35:07
to go to church after I was divorced and I like
35:11
the music. I like the camaraderie, I like being
35:14
in God's presence, but I didn't like the message
35:18
up there. The guy would get up and speak and
35:21
I went, oh crap, I can't live in this church.
35:24
I can't be a member of this church. This isn't
35:27
gonna work for me. And I did that over and over,
35:29
every Sunday, every Sunday, every Sunday. And
35:32
I went to one church and I told him that I'm
35:34
getting a divorce and I told him that I was kinda
35:37
gay and he goes, well you're welcome. To be in
35:41
this church, but we don't want you to be a teacher
35:43
We don't want you to be Involved in our church,
35:48
you know I hope that the end of that kind of
35:53
thinking yeah, I would I would agree I I had
35:58
my own like slow very slow falling out on the
36:02
church when I realized that a lot of the like
36:07
first of all that the idea that And I think this
36:12
is my own connection to my own identity and my
36:15
early struggles with it, even though I was unaware
36:18
of the fact. I would read other religious texts
36:23
or other religious doctrines from all around
36:26
the world. And the core, the core message was
36:31
always the same. And then there was this big
36:34
problem that I faced with either you are Christian,
36:39
or you will burn in hell because the only way
36:42
to heaven is through Jesus Christ. I just had
36:46
a problem with that because that just fundamentally
36:49
means that everybody else is wrong and not everybody
36:51
has heard and it puts this like mandate of control
36:55
and spreading this word on a group of people.
37:00
When other groups are perfectly happy, perfectly
37:03
moral, perfectly capable of being amazing societies.
37:09
So that like message of inclusion, exclusion.
37:12
It's not inclusion, it's exclusion. You are the
37:15
other, you are not good unless you are this problem.
37:19
And that's why I drifted away from religion.
37:22
I would say it's more or less the same for me.
37:24
Obviously it happened when I was very young,
37:25
like in my teens. But yeah, essentially the same
37:28
dynamic. It's this kind of, you know, ours is
37:30
right, everyone else's is wrong. I have massive
37:33
respect for people like you, Ken, who are able
37:37
to, especially from a point of maturity, step
37:42
back and go, hey, even though there's this massive
37:47
sunk, I presume, I might be wrong, this massive
37:50
sunk cost of like, if I step away, there is a
37:56
risk of me giving up all of this, even though
37:58
that's not the intention, right? The intention
38:01
is just to be myself, but then to be able to
38:04
say, you know what? Being myself is more worth
38:06
than continue this pretense. I think that is
38:10
such a like insanely powerful thing to do. It's
38:16
fundamentally human and it's beautiful. Thank
38:20
you. Thank you. Yeah. I was shopping one day.
38:33
And this was maybe a year into this, and I was
38:37
living by myself. A church woman came up to me,
38:40
a good friend, and she says, she says, pastor.
38:43
And I knew I was in trouble when she called me
38:45
pastor. She didn't call me by my name. And she
38:48
says, we've heard that you're getting a divorce.
38:52
And I said, yeah. And she says, and you've entered
38:55
into that lifestyle. And I went, you mean the
38:58
lifestyle where I cry myself to sleep at night
39:02
or? the lifestyle that I take, sleeping pills
39:05
sometime to get to sleep, or the lifestyle that
39:09
I be a judge by church people. And so I listed
39:13
her all of the lifestyles that I was living through,
39:16
you know. She had a different lifestyle. I mean,
39:20
she thought I was hitting all the gay bars every
39:24
Friday night. And yeah, yeah. By the way - More
39:29
power to you. Yeah, Baptist. going to a gay bar
39:33
was really hard. I don't know. Yeah, I can imagine.
39:37
I didn't know what kind of drink to order. I
39:39
mean, this couple came up and they had this like
39:43
pink drink with little umbrellas in it. I'll
39:46
have what they're having, and the guy goes, that's
39:48
a blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I went, oh,
39:49
okay. You know, I didn't know what to review.
39:53
I didn't like beer. I didn't like the taste of
39:56
beer. I said, I like something sweet. That looks
39:58
like it's pretty sweet. And they said, we are
40:01
sweet. I said, no, I'm not talking about you
40:02
two. I'm talking about the drink. Yeah. It was
40:07
funny. What's the best part about your life now?
40:13
Living in Brazil, remarried, authentically yourself.
40:17
What's the thing that you embrace most every
40:19
day? That's a great question. Wow, that's a great
40:22
question. Well, I'm a fulfilled adult, I think.
40:28
At the end of my book, I write 10 things or 10
40:35
final thoughts that directs my life every day.
40:39
Let me just go with them. Finding peace in something
40:43
bigger than me. I can walk to the beach and put
40:47
my feet in the sand and view an ocean that's
40:51
mightier than me. I don't know if that's a word,
40:53
mightier. It's bigger than me, mightier than
40:56
me. I can go in the ocean and feel its force.
41:02
The waves push me around. I can taste the ocean.
41:06
They say as I look out that direction, we could
41:11
touch the continent of Africa. I can't see Africa,
41:15
but I just have to think about it and believe
41:17
that that's true. If I got in a boat or a ship,
41:21
we would hit the continent of Africa. For me,
41:24
again, to live generously. I'm a rich guy in
41:29
Brazil. Not necessarily money, but I like to
41:34
give to people. And so it's a developing country.
41:39
So when I go out to eat and I have a little pizza
41:42
left, I could take it outdoors and give it to
41:46
somebody to eat and live generously and to use
41:51
some of my resources financially. Next thing,
41:53
I like to nourish my temple. That's a scriptural
41:58
word. My body honor my physical temple. This
42:02
is the only thing I have. A year ago, I had an
42:05
open heart surgery here in Brazil. And it helped
42:09
me realize that, yeah, I... I have made some
42:12
serious mistakes about treating my body as this
42:17
temple that can abuse. I can't smoke it. I can't
42:22
drink it. I can't become an obese human being.
42:27
Next thing I think, embrace the present moment.
42:31
Live now. Brazilians teach me we don't plan.
42:35
And I say, well, what are you going to do Friday
42:37
night? We'll see. We'll see what happens. There
42:41
are people that kind of live on the coattail.
42:44
They don't like them. I like to have a calendar
42:46
where I write things down. Not them. Live in
42:50
the moment. Next one is prioritize my relationships
42:54
with people. Make a relationship with people
42:56
as much as I can. Other things. Keep moving.
43:01
Keep enjoying life. Yeah, I'm doing really well.
43:05
Doing really well here in Brazil. That's only
43:08
five. What are the other five? I'm writing them
43:10
down. Well, before that, why don't we talk about
43:18
your book for a little bit? Well, let me just
43:21
say, seek knowledge daily. I'm trying to find
43:25
something that I learn new every day. Portuguese
43:28
is probably the most difficult language, so I've
43:31
tried to learn Portuguese. as much as I can.
43:36
I have a little sticker. The next one is I have
43:38
a little sticker on my mirror in the morning
43:41
and it says, make it a great day and be thankful.
43:46
You know, I really want to live a grateful life,
43:51
a life of gratitude every day. Wow. And so when
43:55
I lay down at night, I think, well, what kind
43:57
of a day did I have today? I kind of evaluate
44:00
the day that I have. What was good about today
44:03
that I really can celebrate, you know? Cultivate
44:06
forgiveness. I want to be a person that forgives
44:09
people, let people have mistakes, let people
44:13
live their lives the way they want to live their
44:16
lives. I'm almost done, I'm almost done. Live
44:20
authentically with passion. So it's really hard
44:26
for Brazilians to be with me because I have a
44:30
big mouth and I don't have a filter, like I said
44:32
before, and I call out their love for their ex
44:36
-president, you know, and somebody said to me,
44:41
when are you going back to United States? I said,
44:43
well, I can't because United States is bagunçado,
44:47
which means it's a... mess back there. It's a
44:50
mess. I'm not going back there. They went, what
44:52
do you mean it's a mess back there? Brazil's
44:54
a mess. No, no. Brazil, the way you see it, Brazil
44:58
is a beautiful place. Right. What do you want
45:02
to know about my book? It's on Amazon and it's
45:05
doing okay. I'm kind of glad to be on podcasts.
45:08
Well, I like that. Yeah. So, well, I'm just curious
45:12
if you could tell the viewers generally what
45:14
the book is about. What does it focus on? What's
45:18
the... Well, it's a coming out story. The subtitle
45:23
is a memoir of truth, liberation, and love. It
45:27
details my life from the beginning as a young
45:31
boy, a young man, and then what happens to me
45:35
after that. It's not a very long book. It's like
45:38
a hundred and some pages, but it's good. Pick
45:42
it up. Great one. Yeah, I have tried to get a
45:46
hold of it here. Amazon no longer does sales
45:49
here in China. And I don't really have a good
45:52
way to get hold of it at the point, but I'm very
45:55
interested in reading it. Next time I'm in South
45:57
Africa, I will get that done. I swim every day,
46:02
Ray. And there was this lifeguard that says,
46:05
you're the author of that book. I read your book
46:08
this weekend and he speaks English gladly. because
46:12
it's in English, it's in Portuguese. And he says
46:16
to me, your life was a mess. He goes, are you
46:19
okay now? I mean, like it's, it was the saddest
46:23
story I've ever read. Yikes, you know, I hope,
46:28
I hope that was not the ending, but that's the
46:31
way he viewed the book. And I was so delighted
46:33
that some guy in Brazil had read my book. It
46:37
was kind of cool. Yeah, you know, for me, it's,
46:40
it's kind of wild to have the opportunity to
46:43
speak to, I never imagined in my life before
46:47
that I would have the opportunity to speak to,
46:49
uh, just in, in the past couple of months, you
46:55
know, the, the chairman of the hate crimes committee
46:58
in South Africa published author. the owner of
47:04
the first LGBTQ inclusive hostel on the African
47:08
continent. These things are completely unfathomable
47:15
to me. And it just, for me personally, it shows
47:17
that the more you let go of the things that you
47:22
were and that you thought you have to be, the
47:25
more... I don't know. The more alive you come
47:30
to me. And I ask you a question. What's the thing
47:32
that you... What's the thing that you love most
47:35
about your life now? And for me, it's that. For
47:38
me, it's being able to go, hey, yeah, sure. I'll
47:41
do that. I can do that. It doesn't matter. I
47:44
do not care what other people think. Yeah. Yeah.
47:48
And that's... I could not have imagined I'd be
47:52
doing this. A year ago, if you'd asked me, I
47:53
would have said, yeah, it'd be cool. But I honestly
47:57
had no idea of doing this and talking to the
48:01
people we've spoken to. Yeah. Which have all
48:03
been really, really interesting. That's great.
48:05
Ken, I have a question if I may ask. How did
48:08
you meet your current partner? Repeat that again.
48:12
I'm sorry. What? How did you meet your current
48:15
partner? How did I meet my partner? I did it
48:19
the old -fashioned way. We were online together
48:22
because I was an English teacher. and he was
48:26
an English teacher in Brazil. It started off,
48:31
he admits to this and says, it started off with
48:35
him practicing his English with somebody, because
48:38
that's the big deal in Brazil, practice your
48:41
English. You can know it, but you have to practice
48:43
and practice. So he says, I look forward to talking
48:46
to you because I can practice my English. And
48:48
I said, well, I kind of look forward to it because
48:50
I was kind of romantically falling for you, you
48:53
know. And he said, no, not for me, I was learning
48:56
more English and more English and more English.
49:00
So we did an online chat for like weeks and months.
49:10
I don't even know what the title, I don't even
49:12
think it's in existence anymore. But it's not
49:15
just for English teachers, for gay people. It
49:17
was a gay chat line online. Uh, as time went
49:24
on, I said, you know, you really do need to come
49:27
to the United States and visit. And I didn't
49:29
realize how much pressure I put on him to try
49:34
to do that. He went through the visa process
49:38
and immigration and was rejected once and then
49:41
rejected twice. And, um, it wasn't until the
49:46
historic decision by the Supreme court that gay
49:49
people can get married and it affected the American
49:53
government. So we did, um, the fiancee visa approved
50:00
and he flew to the United States to be with Nikki.
50:03
Wonderful. We get a new life. And that's really
50:07
when our life began to bloom and blossom, you
50:10
know? Yeah. Good question, Ray. I'm full of them
50:17
today. What am I going to be that lucky? What
50:19
am I going to find love? Ruby, when's it going
50:21
to happen for me? You have to manifest. You have
50:28
to manifest that it comes. It's coming. Don't
50:31
worry. The ship is sailing. It's just slow. I
50:33
feel like the running gag on this show is my
50:36
really unsuccessful love life. Two things I think
50:40
that will help you. One, travel to Thailand without
50:45
a plan. Two, Yeah. Okay. Uh, yeah, same. Come
50:54
to Brazil. There's like a Brazilian guys in Brazil
50:59
or girls Luigi Luigi's. I'm straight. I'm as
51:05
straight as an arrow. Okay. Well, there's yeah,
51:08
there's many, many beautiful women. Brazil people
51:12
really take care of their, their body. Yes. That
51:16
is the stereotype, isn't it? Well, I remember
51:19
a little story. So one of the things that changes
51:25
when you go on hormones potentially is your sexuality.
51:30
So I grew up a straight man and married a woman
51:35
and I'm still very attracted. I'm bisexual. But
51:39
I remember walking to school one day, a couple
51:43
of weeks after starting. hormones, um, estrogen
51:48
therapy. And a lot of the things in my body had
51:51
started changing, but I remember seeing this
51:54
Brazilian hunk of a man who is our PE teacher
51:57
and my knee's just going weak. And I went, Oh,
52:00
that's a problem. Yeah. Yeah, they do. It's,
52:05
it's really the capital of baselifts and Botox
52:09
and tummy tucks. It's, it's an amazing country.
52:15
of the way they maintain their face and their
52:19
wrinkles and their body and wow, yeah. And the
52:23
beaches are, wow, they don't like to wear too
52:27
much on the beach. So Luigi, you just gotta come
52:32
and just see the scenery. Come on. Seeing the
52:35
scene. I sound like a degenerate pervert who
52:39
wants to go to a nude beach. No, you don't. You
52:42
sound... a single man who wants to meet someone.
52:46
And Luigi, it's all a part of what you're feeding
52:50
your mind here. Hello, yeah. How you're viewing
52:55
your - Yeah, sure. And wow, I'm taking the psychological
52:59
liberty to tell you this, but yeah, it's like
53:04
how, you know, if I'm always gonna be single,
53:06
you're always gonna be single, but you have to
53:09
begin to look. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guess Ray and
53:11
I, we want, we want you to be, to be successful
53:15
and to be in a partnership with somebody that
53:18
really appreciate. Thanks. Maybe, Hey, maybe
53:27
she's our next podcast guest. Yeah, maybe she's.
53:31
Maybe that's how it happened. Who knows? Yeah.
53:35
Okay. I want to call all pretty girls. Please
53:37
come on to Kaleidoscope. Yes. Sorry, Dewey. I'll
53:42
cut that out of the podcast if you want. Let's
53:44
try, come on, bring it back. Okay. Bring it back.
53:48
I really want to talk about this one thing. Okay.
53:50
So let's go back on the topic of we're all liars.
53:56
So, you know, there's, so Ken New, a person who
54:01
said this, and you could look at it the other
54:03
way. in as much as, you know, we all put on a
54:08
mask. So we're all kind of performing in our
54:10
day -to -day lives. When are we really our true
54:12
selves? Maybe when we're alone. But I said, or
54:15
I mentioned that, you know, when people are coming
54:18
out, there's this idea of like a dichotomy, like
54:21
either or, which isn't true. But I wanted to,
54:23
I mentioned, you know, using a kind of case study
54:27
to provoke another kind of discussion. So I guess
54:31
I'll tell you a story or a story I heard. So
54:36
it's someone else's story. So this person is
54:38
quite religious and they don't, and then for
54:42
example, even though I might declare I'm not
54:45
religious, they say, no, I believe you are because
54:48
of how you are as a person, how you act. Like
54:51
you're such a good person and only a good person
54:53
can like be religious. And I'm just thinking,
54:57
or believe in God, let's say. And I go, well,
54:58
I don't. necessarily agree with that, but whatever.
55:01
So that's that kind of person. So this person
55:03
also shared a story with me about how they knew
55:06
a young queer woman and she was very young, a
55:11
teenager, and they were gay. But then this person
55:16
by association, I guess, somehow brought this
55:21
young teenager into the church or it was just
55:26
by osmosis. moved them so much religiously that
55:30
this young person is no longer gay. They are
55:33
straight, by some act of providence. And every
55:35
day this same person, this teenager, now an adult,
55:40
thanks them every day for what they've done.
55:42
Now, my question is, or I guess I just wanna
55:46
ask in general, like, can, I personally don't,
55:49
I still think that person is queer, but they
55:53
are living in a... or a culture where they just
55:56
really can't be true to themselves. So you have
55:58
this faith can reshape identity. And I mean,
56:04
it can force, it can do that, but is it an honest
56:08
shaping? Is it authentic? There, I'm using that
56:12
word again. Because when I hear the story of
56:16
a young queer person was queer, but then they
56:21
found the church and now they're straight, I
56:22
find that very, very difficult. to believe. Why
56:25
would a young person even choose, again, choose
56:29
to be queer in the first place? Children, teenagers,
56:33
young people, youth, they don't do that. You
56:36
know, they're very good at following their desires
56:38
and doing what they want. You know, that's why
56:40
school's so hard. You know, they gotta do work.
56:44
They're effectively selfish. So, spiritual intervention.
56:48
Can it alter someone's innate sexuality? Ken's
56:50
already shaking his head. I don't believe so.
56:53
I don't believe. Yeah, and I don't believe it
56:58
either. And I live in a culture in Brazil here
57:03
that is so typical. The little town there, Venetians,
57:08
my partner, is from called Baja de San Miguel.
57:11
We go there a lot. And there are three or four
57:16
or five very, very, I'm just going to say very
57:21
feminine kind of gay guys that work in the church,
57:25
the Catholic church. I just said, I pulled one
57:29
apart over and I said, why, why do you work in
57:33
such an organization like this, the church? And
57:36
they went, you know, everything they said, all
57:39
of them said that it's just, of course it all
57:42
falls short, but this is where we find satisfaction
57:46
and health, but the church hasn't converted them.
57:49
And they haven't covered the church at all, but
57:52
there's room here in the culture, in the Catholic
57:55
Church, for gay people to be involved for something.
58:01
You could say, well, aren't they using them?
58:03
Aren't they kind of like using their abilities
58:06
and talents? Maybe, I don't know. So these are
58:10
just queer people in the church. They're still
58:12
queer. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. We have
58:18
four trans people in this little small town.
58:22
There's just room for them. There's no judgment.
58:25
But again, you don't talk about it. You don't
58:30
express it. You never verbalize it. There's an
58:36
exercise queen. I call her the exercise queen.
58:39
And she's got like long fingernails. And she's
58:43
got huge, big... thighs. She's very athletic.
58:47
I said to Bernice, why don't she wear those nails?
58:53
And he says, because she's a guy. And he looked
58:56
at me like, what? Don't you know that she's a
58:59
guy? And I went, wow, I guess I didn't. Wow,
59:03
OK. There's so many things that I'm learning
59:06
about this culture that's so different than the
59:10
way I grew up. I don't think that, you know,
59:15
I'm trying to articulate this carefully. When
59:18
you say it's not spoken about, I agree. Like
59:21
when we ignore something, we don't address it
59:24
and we don't like say, hey, you're welcome here.
59:28
That's a problem. But when the culture is one
59:33
of, it doesn't matter, not to the point of ignoring,
59:37
but to the point of where discussion isn't necessary.
59:41
as the closest ideal example I can think of Thailand
59:45
where the gender is extremely gendered. I mean
59:49
the language is extremely gendered to the point
59:51
where you can on the fly choose how you interact
59:55
with people based on how you sign off on every
59:59
sentence that you say. through cup and car. And
1:00:02
so it's not actually spoken about. It doesn't
1:00:05
need to be spoken about. It's known and accepted
1:00:08
and people are treated the way that they want
1:00:11
to be treated. I think there's a society where
1:00:15
it doesn't need to be spoken about. And we have
1:00:20
pride, the pride parade for acceptance. not for
1:00:25
as a lot of misconstruence for conversion. The
1:00:28
Pride Parade is needed because there is exclusion.
1:00:33
Once exclusion stops, the parade will probably
1:00:37
end. Yeah. Brazil has the largest Pride parade
1:00:43
in the world. It's about four million people.
1:00:48
Wow. I want to go. Yeah, you really, it's really
1:00:52
something. I went one Sunday. I mean, it's amazing,
1:00:57
but Brazil has a lot of problems. I don't want
1:01:00
to say they're an accepting culture. I'm just
1:01:04
saying that. And there's a lot of violence, of
1:01:07
course, against trans people here. I'm just saying,
1:01:14
you know, my learning curve is just so far. I
1:01:19
mean, it's just beginning to learn. to sit down
1:01:23
and have lunch with this young woman, who's like
1:01:30
a pillar in our little town, and to realize,
1:01:35
and to have Benises tell me, she's a guy, you
1:01:39
know? And I went, what? I mean, I always - No,
1:01:44
she isn't though. Yeah, all this time in my mind,
1:01:48
I thought, wow, she's got big. Legs, I mean muscular
1:01:54
legs. She's an athlete, you know and in my mind
1:01:57
Wow, she does a lot of exercise and then Yeah
1:02:02
Yeah, it's for me. It's yeah. I have to think
1:02:06
I have to grow and become more more into my yeah,
1:02:11
and also to a large extent Yes, she is working
1:02:14
out. Hey It used to be rather muscular too. And
1:02:18
estrogen, estrogen, the moment you start taking
1:02:21
it, it declares war on muscle mass. You cannot
1:02:25
keep it. Yeah. And so that will probably disappear
1:02:31
over time for her. So, Ken, let me, let me ask
1:02:37
you then. Yeah, I knew Luigi had questions. I
1:02:42
knew Luigi had questions. Bring it on Luigi.
1:02:45
I'm just, okay, let's say you heard this story.
1:02:48
You ran into this young queer girl who said,
1:02:51
I was queer, but now I have been moved by the
1:02:54
church and now I'm straight. What would you tell
1:02:57
them? How would you respond to that? Because
1:03:00
I think you're like me and you think it's not,
1:03:03
I hate to say it's not true, but you know, they're
1:03:06
not being honest with themselves. How would you
1:03:08
approach that? You know, I could just begin to
1:03:11
tell her a little bit about my story and say,
1:03:15
It's very important, no matter how old you are
1:03:20
right now, to begin to think about the path that
1:03:24
you're going. What do you really, really see
1:03:28
in the mirror each morning? Who's that person?
1:03:32
Who are you? And to begin to challenge her or
1:03:36
him about the things that... the path that she's
1:03:42
gone to. You know, there's so many, I'm sorry,
1:03:44
there's so many Mormon guys. I ran into two Mormon
1:03:48
missionaries the other day here on the street
1:03:50
and I went, oh my God. They're a lot here too.
1:03:53
You guys are so gay. You know, I just wanted
1:03:55
to go, wow. You know, you're just so gay. You
1:04:00
know, they're in their white shirts and they
1:04:01
got their little name tag on. And I said, where
1:04:04
are you from? Utah. And we're here for two years,
1:04:07
blah, blah, blah, blah. And I wanted to go. So
1:04:10
I said, well, I'm gay. I told him right out,
1:04:13
I'm gay. And they went, well, great, God still
1:04:15
loves you, blah, blah, blah, still loves me.
1:04:17
I said, well, thank you. I wanted to keep picking
1:04:22
at them, picking at them, picking at them. Because
1:04:26
they're not living their life. Fully bought into
1:04:29
being Mormon missionaries here in Brazil. And
1:04:32
I want to say, Lord, what do you guys do at night
1:04:36
together? Anyways. There's this unspoken rule
1:04:43
in the trans community when it comes to identifying
1:04:46
that someone is trans. And I think this is actually
1:04:50
quite important is to not say it. Like if I met
1:04:56
this girl who says that she is no longer queer
1:05:00
in whichever way she was because of the church,
1:05:04
I personally would have my reservations on that,
1:05:06
but I'm not going to try and change her. Because
1:05:09
at the end of the day, how she expresses and
1:05:11
what she wants to do is her choice. And that's
1:05:14
the choice that I am fighting for as well. So
1:05:20
I will be supportive. I will tell her my story
1:05:24
and I will hope that she is supportive of me
1:05:26
in the same way. And I will always doubt whether
1:05:29
she is actually, but that is my problem to carry.
1:05:35
Yeah. And Ray? You've said something very important,
1:05:38
very spiritual today. You said, we can't change
1:05:43
anybody. We really can't change anybody. We can
1:05:47
only change ourselves. I can't change her. Who
1:05:52
in the church has the idea that you can try to
1:05:57
change other people? That's insane. It's just
1:05:59
insane. And I did it most of my life. I tried,
1:06:03
I tried and tried, you know? I did it with my...
1:06:05
Pray the gay away. Yeah, I did it with my own
1:06:09
sons. I tried to change them. And I look at my
1:06:13
spouse, and I think, okay, I don't like this.
1:06:16
I want you to do this. And I have to catch myself.
1:06:20
I'm not going to change him. He's got to, like,
1:06:23
want to do that, you know? Yeah. I tell him...
1:06:27
Ruby, that was a great answer. I tell him, yeah.
1:06:30
I tell him Friday and Saturday... culturally,
1:06:34
they drink, and they drink really heavily in
1:06:37
Brazil. And I don't like that. I wish he wouldn't
1:06:41
do that. And I've expressed that. But I'm not
1:06:44
gonna change it. I'm gonna say, hey, my culture
1:06:46
is better than yours. Don't go out drinking Friday,
1:06:49
Saturday, and come in at three in the morning,
1:06:52
four in the morning. I'm not gonna change it.
1:06:58
I like that rate. Ray gets the crown today. She
1:07:04
gets the crown for saying, I'm not going to change
1:07:07
her. I'm going to tell her my story. I'm going
1:07:09
to tell her who I am. I think that's a good idea.
1:07:14
Ken, that's why you became, I think, a writer
1:07:17
for the most part, to tell a story. I think people
1:07:19
respond to stories. Really, that is how you change
1:07:22
people, I think. That's how people learn. They
1:07:25
learn more effectively from stories. as a species,
1:07:32
as human beings. Storytelling is how people bonded,
1:07:38
how villages learned. In Brazil, the Protestant
1:07:42
Church is very conservative, politically and
1:07:48
spiritually very conservative. So for me to blow
1:07:52
somebody's mind is for me to tell a Brazilian.
1:07:56
I was an evangelical person. And they go, you
1:08:02
were? And I said, more than that, I was an evangelical
1:08:05
pastor. And they kind of, they just kind of like,
1:08:09
oh my gosh. Yeah, it just blows up away. And
1:08:15
so one woman, I was out at a party and she says
1:08:19
to me, she says, yeah, but there's a lot of scriptures
1:08:22
about homosexuals. And I went, really? I said,
1:08:26
well, there's a lot of scriptures about feeding
1:08:28
the poor. So, you know, are you going to use
1:08:31
the Bible on me? Don't use the Bible on me, because
1:08:35
it's not going to happen. It's been too much
1:08:38
time reading the Bible and knowing the Bible
1:08:40
inside and out, you know, for somebody to try
1:08:44
to trump me on, you know. The Bible says this
1:08:49
about homosexuals. Yeah, okay. Yeah, it does
1:08:51
it, and did it. Is an even more pertinent question.
1:08:56
Did it say so in the beginning when it was written?
1:09:00
Or does it say so now? Yeah, retconning the Bible.
1:09:05
Yeah, retconning the Bible. Ruby Ray's TED Talk.
1:09:08
On that note, I think we should probably draw
1:09:11
today's podcast into conclusion. Ken, I want
1:09:14
to thank you for coming on to Kaleidoscope. And
1:09:17
if you ever want to have another conversation
1:09:19
with us, you are more than welcome to. You will
1:09:23
always be welcome here. Thank you. Thank you
1:09:25
guys. Both you, Luigi and Ray, thank you. You
1:09:28
guys are delightful people to talk to. Ken, if
1:09:33
our listeners want to find you, they can find
1:09:36
your book on Amazon. It's called The Gospel of
1:09:39
Secrets, A Memoir of Truth. Yeah, liberation,
1:09:45
truth, liberation and love. A Memoir of Truth,
1:09:48
Liberation and Love. Is there any other social
1:09:51
media you would like to point our listeners to?
1:09:54
If I have an email, but I'm not a big yeah, it's
1:09:57
create some 81 at gmail create some 81 Yeah,
1:10:08
the number 81 create some at gmail You can also
1:10:11
reach out to me if you have questions for ken
1:10:13
and I will forward them on to him You can find
1:10:17
luigi Wherever you find kaleidoscope In the ether,
1:10:24
you can find me, Ruby Rae, at firefromheat on
1:10:29
Instagram or on Kaleidoscope at Echo Perspectives
1:10:33
on YouTube. And you can also find my personal
1:10:37
vlog on Ruby Raed on YouTube. Thank you so much
1:10:43
for listening and we will see you again. Ken,
1:10:46
I'm going to end the recording now. I would like
1:10:50
for you just to stay on for a minute or two,
1:10:52
please. That's good.