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188. The Eric Capaci Interview - Part 1 · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:00
Welcome back everyone to the Four Freedom Podcast.
0:03
What an amazing last couple weeks has been.
0:08
We have been overwhelmed with the excitement of our new box,
0:12
our Four Freedom experience box with our soap from Angela there
0:17
in Tennessee, our Coffee with purpose in the story, helping
0:21
our church planters in Nicaragua, and then our four
0:25
sampler pack of cigars. Thank you for ordering those.
0:29
Again, the 1st 5 that ordered are going to receive the free
0:32
book that me and John recently came out with.
0:35
And so we're excited about getting those in your hands and
0:38
we are excited about what we have coming up.
0:41
We'll just give a short brief intro this week and next week,
0:45
A2 part episode interview with Eric Pacey, my pastor growing up
0:51
in college, during my college experience there.
0:54
This is my wife's pastor who reached her in the minute while
0:58
he was in ministry there serving in Arkansas when he planted the
1:02
church and still is there. And I would not be where I'm at
1:07
today if not for Eric Pacey and his vision and his love for me
1:12
and for my wife's family and for her.
1:15
And so this interview, it's going to be a two-part interview
1:18
this week will be about an hour long.
1:21
And then we've asked Eric 9 questions.
1:24
And then next week we'll ask him nine more questions.
1:28
And so it's another about an hour long as well.
1:30
So about a 2 hour interview. We want to break it up just so
1:33
you could have time to to digest both of them.
1:36
We'll be dropping some clips over the next couple of days of
1:40
some of those interviews. You can find those on social
1:42
media and you can share those, but we appreciate all of our
1:47
listeners. We thank you for your time and
1:50
investment in our ministry and what we're able to do here with
1:53
the Full Freedom Podcast. We want to drive people to
1:57
Scripture. We want them to see the freedom
1:59
that they can experience through Galatians 51 and understanding
2:03
that Christ has set us free not to be under the yoke of bondage
2:07
any longer. And so we are so thankful for
2:10
you. As always, if this episode or
2:13
any of our episodes has encouraged you, we encourage you
2:16
to go and and give us a rating and review on iTunes.
2:20
Share it on your social media platforms, help get the word out
2:24
about what we're doing. And we hope that this will
2:27
continue to be a blessing to you.
2:28
Looking forward to the rest of the season as we dive deep into
2:32
a couple of other figures to this week, this year, by the end
2:36
of the year. And we hope you enjoy today's
2:39
episode with our interview with Doctor Eric Pacey.
2:43
For freedom set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
2:47
not for Pharisee Grace. Lift the flame now I'm puffing.
2:50
Peace signals and victory justified.
2:53
Released. Welcome to the For Freedom
2:57
podcast. This podcast exists to bring the
3:00
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
3:03
everyday issues. I ain't.
3:05
Saved by dress codes, not by what I eat.
3:08
I'm covered in the righteousness, washed from head
3:10
to feet. No tally of tradition.
3:12
No man made code. Blood bought my freedom.
3:14
Now I ride that road. They clutch pearls when they see
3:17
smoke rings rise. But my prey still ascends past
3:20
the legalist cries. Christ plus nothing.
3:22
That's the real math. So miss me with your fence laws
3:25
and your extra path. He sat with sinners.
3:28
I'm sitting with Saints, sipping grace from the bottle.
3:31
No room for face. I like one for liberty.
3:33
Toast to the king. Every ash of sermon.
3:36
Death has lost its sting. For freedom He set me free.
3:40
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee Grace.
3:43
Let the flame, Now I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory
3:46
justified released. For freedom He set me free.
3:51
Not for change, not for guilt, not for Pharisee grace.
3:54
Let the flame now I'm puffing peace, cigars and victory
3:57
Justified released. Let grace begin now.
4:05
Here are. Your hosts, James Seyfried.
4:10
And Brett, well, we're excited to have Eric Capaci here with us
4:12
today. And my former pastor from when I
4:15
was in Arkansas, my wife grew up in the church there where he was
4:18
at, or is that not, was that and we, I went to college there and
4:22
been excited to have him on for a while.
4:24
And so Brett, welcome to the podcast.
4:26
And Brett, Eric, not your brother, sorry.
4:30
Welcome. Welcome to the podcast.
4:32
And we're going to start at the beginning.
4:33
Jump right in. Some of our listeners may know
4:35
who you are, may not know who you are.
4:37
Tell us a bit about your upbringing, your early life and
4:40
your spiritual formation growing up in church and what that
4:43
looked like. Absolutely.
4:45
First of all, James Brett, thank you for having me on the For
4:49
Freedom podcast. It's an honor.
4:51
I really mean that. Of course, I have a lot of US
4:54
respect and love and memories for my time together.
4:58
James and and I love it when we get to see each other.
5:00
It's I'm fortunate enough to have some of your family living
5:04
in Hot Springs. So that's a free ticket for me
5:06
to to always rekindle our friendship.
5:09
But it's not really rekindling. It's just a continuation.
5:12
So thank you so much. Yes.
5:15
Well, I was yeah. And I'll, I'll, I'll share this
5:19
just totally transparent as as expected, I'm sure.
5:24
But I, I fortunately in my story, grew up as a Roman
5:28
Catholic in my early childhood. My parents who were devout,
5:34
devouted Catholics, devoted Catholics.
5:36
I'm sorry, they got divorced when I was very young.
5:40
My brother and I were very young.
5:41
I was probably 3. My brother was one.
5:43
And of course that's anathema in the, in the Catholic Church.
5:47
To do that would almost mean to be excommunicated from the
5:50
church. And when you grow up in New
5:52
Orleans, LA as a, as a Roman Catholic Now I notice I didn't
5:57
say Catholic. I said a Roman Catholic because
6:00
that is the true religious way to say it.
6:03
So we grew up and our dad was somewhat excommunicated.
6:08
So to get back in the church, he got his marriage annulled, which
6:12
means kind of as if he was never married in the 1st place.
6:15
And so our upbringing was solid, but obviously in a split home.
6:21
And so I served, I got to visit my dad every other weekend.
6:26
Fortunately, my parents were very, they, they loved us a lot
6:31
and they, they, if there was any divorce done right, it was my
6:34
mom and dad's. And so I was blessed to, to not
6:37
really know, you know, the, the fighting and feuding and, and
6:41
chaos that sometimes can, can obviously be in a, in a divorce
6:45
situation. But I tell you what, I did grow
6:47
up as a devout Catholic. And so my life was serving in
6:51
the Catholic Church up until the age of 13 as a, as a altar boy.
6:55
So you know it's not uncommon for me to to visit the the
7:00
priest and about a monthly basis and I still remember the prayer
7:05
as I knelt and genuflected in that little box.
7:08
Forgive me Father, I have sinned.
7:10
My last confession was, and then I would tell him what my last
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confession was, confess all my sins and walk out of that little
7:17
booth thinking I'm, I'm OK until I send the next time.
7:22
And of course that didn't take long.
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So that was kind of my upbringing.
7:25
That was my religious upbringing.
7:26
And I'm, I'm grateful that I, I at least had a context for who
7:30
Jesus was and in that sense, but not not what salvation was.
7:37
So that's my that's my upbringing in short form.
7:41
Good, good. Now, and my first the experience
7:48
was I'm a student at how's Anderson College and this guy
7:53
gets up to preach Chapel and in it he tells a story about him
7:58
going through the projects, not wearing his tie and he goes to
8:02
get junk. And so he pulls and then his his
8:08
pants and this oh, you're with the church.
8:10
You should have told this man. So that was kind of my first
8:14
introduction to you. So let's lead that into the next
8:19
question. What led you to choose how's
8:22
Anderson College for your ministry training influences,
8:27
mentors that help shape that decision?
8:29
Just just just tell us about your time there.
8:33
Yes. So for me and I, I've saved at
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age 13 in an independent fundamental Baptist Church.
8:40
It was a radical transformation of my life.
8:43
I'll forever be grateful for Glenn Riggs who preached the
8:45
Gospel that day. And, and I, I ran down that
8:50
aisle and got saved. And it was, that was my last.
8:54
After that, I, I never, I should say never.
8:57
I mean, I, I, I did not frequent the Catholic Church anymore.
9:01
I was radically changed. Not that a Catholic can't be
9:04
saved. They can be saved.
9:05
And my dad was, was a born again Catholic.
9:07
But I, I, I, I was grateful for that.
9:10
So my, my influence for the first eight, 5-6 years of my
9:17
Christian life was a man by the name of Glenn Riggs.
9:21
And I, I would want to say, I think he's 80 years old now,
9:23
still pastoring in, in Florida. I would want Doctor Riggs to
9:27
know how grateful I am that he was faithful to preach the
9:30
gospel that day introduced me to a gospel I had never heard by
9:35
grace through faith. I had never ever heard that that
9:39
gospel preach. And so I'm grateful that I'm
9:41
saying he became the influence in my life because Jack Hiles
9:45
would come and preach at what was then called the Hot Springs
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Baptist Temple every single year.
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And the auditorium was full standing room only.
9:55
And I became enthralled with his style, his motivation.
10:03
He was very attractive as a as a public speaker, told great
10:07
stories. Obviously, respectfully, I would
10:10
say this now I'm careful how I look at my past.
10:13
I try not to curse my past and be real critical and cynical
10:16
about it. I mean, there I could, but I
10:18
choose not to because I know I'm who I am today largely as a
10:21
result of of the influence of these men, even though many of
10:25
them today have been exposed as as different things.
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But I really do appreciate Doctor Riggs and his
10:33
faithfulness and of course, having zealous preachers in the
10:36
pulpit at that time. So I was influenced by Doctor
10:40
Riggs and Dr. Ohio's. And so when it came time for me
10:43
to choose where I'm going to go, and again, I'm, I'm giving you
10:48
answers as I would if in real time, as if I was back.
10:52
I'm not, not in light of what I know now that that was my
10:55
decision. I did not know there was another
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decision. I didn't know there was another
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college out there. I had no clue.
11:01
I thought if you're a preacher boy.
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And I was called a preacher at age 15 in a Wednesday night
11:07
church service. If you're a preacher boy, it's
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where you go. That's the, that's the college
11:12
for preacher boys. You know, for all I knew,
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everybody went there except for Catholics, you know.
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So I was drawn to go there, went there.
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And I'll answer that and see if there's any other questions off
11:26
of that that I need to address. Yeah, I think it's great.
11:28
And I think that, as we often say on the podcast, we never
11:32
want to trash our heritage because one of the things that
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we know and respect about the independent Fundamental Baptist
11:38
that we came out of was they taught us to love the Bible.
11:42
Love. People and they taught us how to
11:44
do ministry and that that's one of the things that I hear often
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even at the convention, they'll say, you know, some of our best
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Southern Baptist pastors are independent trained guys because
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they taught them how to do ministry.
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We taught them theology and we teach them theology well, but we
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don't teach how to practically do ministry in an everyday
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world. And that's one of the things
12:02
that I appreciate from championing my time there.
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And, you know, in in my time, I had, you know, hundreds of
12:07
colleges to choose from. You know, West Coast, Golden
12:10
State, there's a college up in up in it wasn't housed.
12:13
There's another church up there in the northern northeastern
12:15
part champion. There was a couple of different
12:18
places I was looking at. Brown and.
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And so there were all these other places that we were
12:23
looking at and going. And so those formidable years in
12:27
ministry definitely make us who we are today and, and how we
12:31
serve and how we do things. That was sort of transition.
12:34
And ask about your colleague in the ministry.
12:36
You're called to be a pastor at 15.
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And I know a lot of these answers.
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And so I'm just sort of reliving a lot of these college stories
12:43
that I heard. So So what made you feel called
12:46
to plant a church because you planted a church and in Hot
12:49
Springs. What made you choose Hot
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Springs? And I know there were some other
12:53
places and some other things, what, 33 years ago now you you
12:57
planted gospel. You just.
12:58
Celebrated our 33rd anniversary two weeks ago.
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So. So tell us about that.
13:02
How what was the the driving force behind starting the
13:06
College of the Church here in Hot Springs?
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Yep. So I'm in California, I
13:10
graduated from Hiles Anderson with my master's degree in
13:14
education. Well, bachelor's in pastoral
13:17
ministry and then master's in education went out to
13:19
California, served under the ministry of Roland Rasmussen and
13:24
my wife's home church. And so we're there and we're,
13:26
we're tearing it up. I mean, you talk about some
13:29
stories and some memories and wow, man, I, there's a lot to
13:33
tell about my experience there and mostly good.
13:35
I'd love that. We saw youth group go from 1 and
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I'm not exaggerating, 1 to 150. And it was we we had what I
13:44
believe to be still at age 60 years old, 33 years in ministry
13:48
of as a pastor. I don't know that I've ever
13:51
experienced A revival like I did in those two years as a youth.
13:56
Pay was just fascinating. So I'm there, but I'm realizing
14:00
and this is critical. I think this is AI think this
14:02
would be good for our listeners to hear.
14:04
I'm I'm realizing that my vision and my zeal is is conflicting
14:10
with the pastor's not now. I wasn't disrespecting him.
14:13
Look, he's paying my salary. I mean, I needed to get in line
14:17
with his vision. And so I took him out and said,
14:20
you know, Pastor Rasmus and I'm I'm struggling with the
14:24
philosophy of of this ministry. It was very heavily Christian
14:28
School had a football team that had a budget of I don't think
14:32
I'm exaggerating when I say this.
14:34
I don't think I am. I hope I'm not had a a budget
14:38
for the football team of $100,000 a year.
14:40
Course football is an expensive sport but my youth budget was
14:45
about 2000 for the year so I had spent $10,000.
14:50
That's 8000 over budget, which is, I know, not good.
14:54
OK, I get it. But I did it because I thought
14:57
goodnight, if they're going to spend 100,000 on football, I'm
14:59
spending 10,000 on teenagers. And I got called to the carpet
15:04
and, and I should have been and, and I told him, I said pastor, I
15:08
said I just, I realized I should have used more discretion.
15:12
But my, I just don't know that I can continue to stay here.
15:16
If philosophically it's more about football than it is about.
15:21
And I love football. I go to every game.
15:23
I I love it. But I said it's, I just don't, I
15:26
don't see how we're lining up here.
15:28
And I don't want to stay and be hindranced.
15:29
You said, Eric, you're not a hindrance.
15:31
You're, you're doing great. You're growing the ministry.
15:34
We need you here. And so I tried to stay, but I, I
15:38
just was struggling. I get a phone call.
15:40
So here's the answer to the question, but I wanted to give
15:42
you that context. I was struggling.
15:44
I really was not, not in being successful as a youth pastor
15:47
and, but struggling with lining up with the, the, the ministry
15:52
there. So a guy calls me from Hot
15:54
Springs. His name's Bud Kaufman.
15:57
Bud was a part of about 12 people who had were in Hot
16:00
Springs who who knew me when I was a young kid.
16:04
That's all they knew. They had seen me in a decade,
16:08
but they knew me as this young fired up kid in Hot Springs.
16:11
They got saved and and left and went to Bible college.
16:14
And now I'm out in California. I'm a married man.
16:16
I got a kid and he said to Eric, we're struggling.
16:20
He had left the independent Baptist Church that we got saved
16:23
in, which by now had been obliterated.
16:25
And again, respectfully, like a lot of independent Baptist
16:27
churches have experienced obliteration because of the
16:31
church model, the, you know, that the pastor kind of, you
16:36
know, having a low accountability theology, being
16:42
weak, all these things. And so our, the church I got
16:45
saved in was obliterated. It was down to like 10 people
16:48
and, and they were just trying to find out where they were
16:52
going to go. So he said, Eric, would you pray
16:54
about coming to Hot Springs and starting a church?
16:57
Well, my desire was to go to New Orleans and to plant a church in
17:01
my hometown. I mean, that's all I could think
17:04
about. I ate, slept and drank New
17:06
Orleans. I mean, I could show you Bibles
17:09
that I have with pictures of the Superdome.
17:11
And as a young zealous kid, I mean, every young preacher boys
17:15
thinks he's the next Charles Spurgeon, right.
17:16
So I'm my church is going to be inside the Superdome.
17:19
I'm going to be the pastor of the Superdome church.
17:21
I mean it. And but God, that phone call
17:25
shook me. I thought, man, I, you know, is
17:28
this something I should consider?
17:30
And so my wife and I began to pray.
17:32
I went and talked to the pastor again.
17:34
Still just saw that I am just long term, I'm not going to be
17:39
to be able to help this man and, and be honest in what I'm doing.
17:42
And so I, I stepped down and we drove to Hot Springs, AR with
17:46
$1500 in our pocket. I well, actually 3000 because I
17:51
sold a condo that I had there lost $30,000 because the economy
17:55
was absolutely rock bottom when I moved in 88 or 90.
17:59
I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry, no.
18:02
Came to California in 90, left in 92, came out to Arkansas and
18:08
we planted this this church. But that's the story.
18:12
It was a phone call from a guy that became a Deacon in our
18:15
church. And here I am 33 years later,
18:19
still love the inner city. I mean, if I go on a vacation,
18:24
it's going to be with 30 million people.
18:25
I'm a city guy. I'm a city slicker.
18:28
I love big cities. But I am in Arkansas in a
18:31
smaller town. But I am so excited about, you
18:36
know what, what's happening here and what we've seen happen in,
18:40
in church, planting out of our church.
18:42
So it's exciting. I've visited Gospel light a few
18:46
times. He said they had a girl from
18:47
there. I've got several the other
18:49
people who grew up with me in church who who went to champion.
18:52
And I'm just curious, Eric, those early why, what, what was
18:57
that like moment that you can just share with us about those
19:04
early stages of gospel light? Yes, yes, yes, you broke up just
19:09
a little bit there. But I think I got the question,
19:11
what was it like in the early days of of Gospel Light?
19:15
It was, oh man, listen, church planting and pioneering, There's
19:20
absolutely nothing that can even come close to it.
19:22
There's nothing that that that has excited me more and still to
19:27
this day. And at the end of our
19:29
conversation, I'll be able to share a little bit about that.
19:31
But man, I, I had the time of my life.
19:34
We, we came here by faith, had nothing.
19:36
I mean, we lived in the middle of a, of a, of the woods.
19:41
And I'm not a country guy. I mean, I am the exact opposite
19:44
of what it looks like to live in the country.
19:46
But we moved where there was ticks and fleas and, and trees
19:49
and it was insane. My $350.00 was my rent.
19:53
My brother lived in one room. I lived in one room and with our
19:57
wives and we, our two little babies, lived in the other room.
20:00
And we just absolutely lived by faith in a way that I don't
20:05
think I, I've ever lived again. I mean, I, I often times find
20:10
myself in a place at 3033 years in with saying, praying this
20:15
prayer, listen closely. God give me the faith of a 27
20:19
year old kid who had nothing but had everything.
20:23
You know, now you know, the offerings are a little low or
20:25
things are a little tight. I tend to wonder is God going to
20:28
come through? And yet when we came to Hot
20:30
Springs and and had no church building and I went to a bank,
20:37
tried to borrow $50,000 to buy a church that was a little
20:40
storefront building. The banker told me I was crazy,
20:43
said do you have a job? I said no, but I know God, God
20:48
can provide. He said, well, that's not how it
20:49
works in the banking world. You, you got to have collateral,
20:52
You got to have at least a cosigner.
20:54
I said, what's that? He said that's somebody that
20:56
that'll sign and make good for your loan.
20:58
I said, well, if I bring a cosigner back, will you give me
21:00
50,000? He said hi, you bet I will, but
21:03
do you know anybody? I said no, I really don't, but I
21:05
said I'll find somebody. I went out, knocked on doors,
21:08
found a rich neighborhood, knocked on the door.
21:09
I'm telling you the story fast. Knocked on the door, a guy
21:12
answers the door. I said, listen, I'm starting to
21:14
church in Hot Springs, AR, I'd like to invite you to come.
21:16
He said, all right, well if you got the guts to knock on my
21:19
door, how come? When's your first service?
21:21
I said June, June 5th or June 7th.
21:23
He said, all right, I'll be there.
21:24
I said. I got one more question.
21:25
He said, what's that? I said, listen, I need to borrow
21:28
$50,000 from the bank and I don't have any money and I don't
21:32
have any collateral, but I'm looking for a cosigner.
21:34
I said you got a nice house, you drive a Lincoln Continental and
21:37
I'm kind of thinking maybe you could sign for this and we could
21:40
get the money. He said, are you kidding me?
21:43
You're asking me to come to your church and then sign a loan for
21:46
you to buy. I said well yeah, that's what
21:47
I'm asking. He said, son, you got the guts
21:49
of a high diver. He said any kid that's got got
21:52
guts enough to ask a told a stranger to cosign a bill is
21:55
going to do something. He said let's go.
21:57
We go to the bank, he signs the he cosigns, we get the money.
22:01
He joined the church and he died about 7 years ago.
22:04
He was a member for over 25 years.
22:07
That kind of faith is the kind of faith that I wish I had now.
22:11
And I at times I do, but to be honest, I fall short of that.
22:15
Just that then I'll, I'll, I'll walk on on, on glass to preach
22:20
the gospel. Sometimes I need that, that,
22:23
that faith again. So anyway, I hope that helped
22:25
answer your question. Yeah.
22:27
And, and now that you've named the building after him, Cliff
22:29
Kauffman, and yeah, it's just great story.
22:32
And still I, I don't think that I would ever have the the guts
22:37
to do that. That would be insane.
22:40
It is. It was, yeah.
22:42
There's. There's tons of stories that we
22:43
could tell and forsake of time. We won't go through that.
22:45
Maybe that'll be another story for another time.
22:48
But you, you said that when you were going to house, one of the
22:51
things that when you went there was that was the only college
22:54
that you know about. So now Fast forward, this would
22:57
have been 20 something years ago now or the college started
23:02
champion started in O3O four O 4.
23:06
'S the Bible Institute OK, so 5 was the college the 20?
23:10
One years ago, you start the champion, you start the the
23:12
college, the institute. What, what was the the drive,
23:16
the lead? I mean, there was some other
23:17
colleges that are out there. You've got crowned, you've got
23:19
Lee Robertson, you've got some other colleges that are doing
23:23
things. You've got Pensacola, Liberty
23:25
started up with Jerry Falwell. Why champion?
23:28
Why then? Why now?
23:30
What was the reason that inspired you to start it?
23:33
Yeah, great. Question James, you know, you're
23:35
right. There was, there was a lot of
23:37
colleges out there and and we supported many of those.
23:41
I mean, it's in a sense that we had students going to all of
23:43
those colleges, even Liberty at the time.
23:45
I although at the time, as you know, we would not have been a
23:48
master proponent of anything but but an independent kind of a
23:52
local church college, but we still had one or two at liberty.
23:56
We had several at Golden State, couple at Crown, some at West
23:59
Coast, of course, quite a few at highs.
24:02
But this is the answer to your question.
24:04
I'm I'm pastoring in Hot Springs.
24:07
It's about 2003 at that at this time when I when God laid this
24:10
on my heart. Church is exploding.
24:12
We're running, you know, 12/13/14 hundred a small town.
24:16
You got a big bus ministry and, and honestly, it was phenomenal.
24:21
It really, well, I look back on those days like, like I'm
24:23
experiencing now another phenomenon of growth and the
24:28
Lord said, Eric, you need to teach young men what you've
24:33
learned about building a church from scratch, about planting a
24:37
church and growing a church. And in a small, smaller
24:40
community, there's something you can teach.
24:43
And I said, really, I Lord, do you really want me to do that?
24:47
How he said, and I said, when I say he said, you know, I'm, I'm
24:51
talking as, as if he's, you know, it's a, it's a
24:54
conversation, but sometimes I feel like it is.
24:56
And, and he said, yes, I, I, I think the way to do that would
24:59
be to start a, a college. So that's where it started.
25:02
I began to talk to people, counsel with deacons and friends
25:06
and other people. And, and then we, we decided
25:10
we're going to do this. I'll tell you this quick little
25:12
story. So we decided we're going to,
25:13
we're going to start this college.
25:14
So I got 10 people very close to me, including my brother and his
25:18
wife. And I said, let's meet in a
25:20
room. Everybody bring the name that
25:23
you would like to call this Bible college.
25:25
Everybody bring a name. Don't write your name.
25:28
Don't don't let us know you were the one that brought it.
25:31
Just write a name on a piece of paper.
25:33
Let's have pizza and let's let's vote on this name.
25:36
So we get some pizza in, we meet in the room, everybody brings
25:39
their name. Put it in a hat.
25:41
So I just start pulling them out one by one and saying if you
25:44
vote for this name, you know, raise your hand.
25:47
I read them all first. Then we went back and voted and
25:50
my sister-in-law, Cindy Kabasi, Brett's wife, put champion and
25:56
she got all 10 votes. We all voted, I, I, I don't know
26:01
what I put in. I don't remember.
26:03
I didn't put champion in. That was my follow up.
26:05
Question what was your name? What did you put?
26:07
Honestly, I don't. Probably something like freedom
26:11
or something. I don't who knows, I'll probably
26:12
put some Patreon. I don't have any clue.
26:14
But I know it when that when I said the word champion, my
26:18
reaction along with everybody else's was that's it.
26:22
So it became champion Christian got but it really was birthed
26:26
from a a a prayer time with God. That's that that had this
26:30
conversation of teach what you've done.
26:33
You've got Adna here that I think could could be valuable to
26:39
to some people that that that need the energy and the
26:41
excitement of church building. So that's how it started.
26:44
Well, whenever you first started the college, I'm sure you had a
26:47
vision for the college. My question is, how was that
26:52
describe that vision and then how that vision has changed over
26:55
the years where you are now? Great.
26:59
Question, Brett. Yeah.
27:01
So the vision for the college when we started was, was
27:05
obviously very much influenced by my independent Baptist
27:10
heritage. It would have been, you know,
27:11
it's all about the local church. And again, it is still all about
27:14
the local church as a Southern Baptist, as you well know, they
27:17
are in, in my opinion, they're, they're more, more not only
27:22
biblical, but more strong on autonomy and on independent than
27:26
we were, you know, so I, I, I am more independent than I've ever
27:30
been as a Southern Baptist. But but it was heavily
27:34
influenced by that, which means our vision would have been, you
27:36
know, as we accept, as we accepted students.
27:40
They, that was a stereotype. James would know.
27:43
I mean, you had to be a Christian.
27:45
Now we had some rebels in the school.
27:47
I mean, James could tell you. But but we they came in with
27:51
either either lying to us or I say that tongue in cheek, but we
27:55
we were accepting only Christian kids from independent Baptist
28:00
churches that that would have had to agree with things like,
28:04
you know, all the girls wearing dresses were King James only.
28:07
And we were never, and I think James would attest to this.
28:11
We were never even though that's who we were, we were never so
28:15
dogmatic on it and ugly about it.
28:18
Now we had some staff that were, we had some and that was my
28:22
fault. I, I did bring in some people
28:25
who did not have my spirit and it, it hurt us bad because
28:29
people, students like James might even come to my office and
28:32
say, I'm not sure I understand, Eric, you don't seem to be this
28:35
way, but I just heard this in a class, you know, and I'm like,
28:39
well, and I had to kind of massage that all the time.
28:41
It was so frustrating because I knew I, I was these things.
28:45
I knew this is all I knew, but I knew the spirit of it was ugly
28:49
and I couldn't find that in scripture and that and I
28:52
struggle with that all my independent Baptist day.
28:54
Honestly, I I struggled with the spirit of fundamentalism more
28:59
than I did fundamentalism. I mean, like I honestly in many
29:02
ways enjoy being conservative and being, you know, and, and I
29:06
had no problem not going to movies, but to me, hey, not the
29:09
end of the world. I'll go to movies, no big deal,
29:11
right? I mean, it's about my
29:12
preference, but when people would say if you do go to
29:15
movies, you're you're hell bent for, for hell with no, no, no
29:21
hope of heaven. I thought, oh man, that's ugly
29:24
that that doesn't make sense to me.
29:26
So to answer your question, I I think because in in my spirit,
29:32
my spirit never ever, I never drank the kool-aid.
29:35
That's the best way I can say it to you, Brett.
29:37
I never drank the kool-aid. I was independent.
29:41
I was fundamental. I liked it, Slash loved it, but
29:47
man, I, I just, I, I never could understand the spirit of it.
29:51
So I began to make changes and these changes that I were were,
29:56
was making began with things like I'm going to be silly.
30:00
I'm going to be silly. Things like not wearing a tie.
30:04
That was big to fundamentalism. I mean, especially if you're
30:06
House Anderson. I mean, you take your tie off,
30:09
you are heading for Rick Warrenism.
30:12
You know, you're just destined to go there.
30:15
Things like, OK, we're not going to have a Wednesday night
30:18
traditional Bible study or we're not going to have Sunday night
30:21
church. Now, bear in mind, and I'll
30:23
answer this question if you ask it, but this was not a decision
30:27
I made immediately. This was a five year transition.
30:32
And I'll talk about this based on some of the questions I know
30:34
you're going to ask, but I'll touch on it now.
30:37
So as we transitioned Brett into who we are today, it was about a
30:41
five year period. And and I say this not, not for
30:45
anybody that's listening to, to feel sorry for me.
30:47
It's my story and and it's it, it is what it is and it, I have
30:50
no regrets, but I pretty much lost every influential friend I
30:55
had in fundamentalism. I mean, I, I mean every, every
30:57
single one. I mean, I if it weren't for guys
30:59
like James Seyfried who said, I'm not going to, I'm going to
31:04
be your friend. You know, it was only the young
31:05
guys. It was the young guys that I
31:07
think appreciated the what I was doing, even if some of them
31:11
didn't agree with it or were slow to come around or had other
31:14
pastors speaking into their like, be careful, watch your
31:17
Eric, He's going sideways. Be careful.
31:19
And of course, a lot of them left.
31:21
James didn't and I'm grateful. But so I found myself alone,
31:27
very alone. I wasn't depressed.
31:29
I'm not that kind of person, not my personality, but I was very
31:33
alone and I reached, I went to an Adrian Rogers seminar in
31:39
Sevierville, TN changed my life, changed my life.
31:43
I mean, I used to pay 30 bucks to go to pastor school for a
31:46
week. 30 bucks was the registration fee.
31:50
This was $600.00. I mean, I put it on a credit
31:54
card. I had $600.00.
31:55
I'm going to benefit. I was making $24,000 a year as a
31:58
pastor and that's you're overpaid if you're making 24,000
32:01
a year. So I'm making 24.
32:03
I put it on my credit card, went and heard Adrian Rogers say
32:06
things I had never heard before. Now let me give you this little
32:09
insight. It did help that Adrian preached
32:12
out of the King James. Oddly enough.
32:14
Now he wasn't King James only, but but he so that helped me.
32:18
He was like God gave me the perfect person to influence me
32:22
to understand that. Eric, there's another world out
32:25
there. These people love Jesus as much
32:27
or more than you do. Then I went to Jim Symbola's
32:31
Tuesday night prayer meeting at the Brooklyn Tabernacle in New
32:34
York by myself. Cool story.
32:37
So I get to New York, nobody knows about my wife.
32:40
Nobody knows about my wife. Then I'm going to New York
32:42
because I've got to find out what, what, what this is all
32:47
about. What this, what, what this idea
32:50
of praise and worship and prayer and, you know, is there a
32:54
balance of emotionalism and worship in, in, in, in a, in a
32:58
church? And so I get out there.
33:01
This is so funny. I don't think I've told this but
33:03
once or twice. I James, you may have never
33:04
heard this part. So I know you've heard my Jim
33:07
symbol a story. But so I get there.
33:09
I'm in a Marriott Hotel and I'm about to go to the prayer
33:12
meeting. I'm in the I'm in a elevator.
33:15
OK, we're going, I'm going down. A guy walks the elevator stops
33:18
on a certain floor. A guy walks in.
33:20
So you know me. I'm I'm friendly.
33:22
I'm like, hey, brother, how you doing, man?
33:24
What's your name? He tells me his name.
33:25
I said my name is Eric Pacey. What you here for?
33:26
So well, I'm actually, I'm here. I'm going to Brooklyn Tabernacle
33:29
tonight to a prayer. Me to go.
33:30
Me too. I go great, man, that's cool.
33:33
You know he goes well, where you from?
33:35
It's at Hot Springs. I said he goes, you look like a
33:38
guy named Erica Pacey. I said I am Erica Pacey.
33:42
He said, man, I'm an independent Baptist preacher from South
33:45
Carolina because you don't know me, but I've heard you preach.
33:47
But I'm here to find out if this thing is real.
33:52
And I go, me too. I go, you want to go together.
33:54
So I literally go with this guy that I met in an elevator that
33:57
I've never known before that was there for the same reason.
33:59
I was there that knew me, but I didn't know.
34:01
We go to the meeting that night. We are both slammed by the Holy
34:05
Spirit. I mean, not slain.
34:07
OK, I get it. We got to be careful.
34:09
I always say things. But I was taken by the Holy
34:12
Spirit for the first time in my life.
34:14
I raised my hands in worship. I was prayed over and I just, I
34:19
was just changed and I came back and I told my wife when I got
34:22
back, honey, there's no turning back.
34:25
I'm, I'm, I'm all in for Jesus. I'm following Jesus If it cost
34:29
me everything. I can't live this way anymore.
34:31
I'm a phony, I'm a fake. I've I've seen the real thing.
34:35
It's not that I, I, I want to curse my past.
34:38
It's not that I don't believe that I was taught some really,
34:40
really good things. But I said we are now in a
34:44
movement that is is going to die.
34:47
It has no chance of survival. It's not.
34:49
It's not going to make it. And we've got to get biblical.
34:52
I don't know what that looks like.
34:54
She was scared half to death. She'll tell you the day she, he
34:57
she was freaking out. She didn't know what this was
34:58
going to look like. And I didn't either.
35:00
But that's my story. I hope that answered your
35:03
question. Yeah, I.
35:05
Remember, I've been to Brooklyn Tabernacle one time and when I
35:07
went same way it, it changed my life.
35:10
I went in 2019 and took a mission group up there and I
35:15
said, hey, we're going to go to a service while we're up here.
35:17
What better service to go to? I've read all the Jim's books.
35:20
I've read, I've read all the stuff that he's talking about.
35:22
I'm going to go and experience it.
35:24
And it was. It was like.
35:25
Experience in heaven and what it was going to be like with I
35:28
don't know how they did it every.
35:29
I hear that every Tuesday night's different.
35:32
And so they had like everyone pray in their own language while
35:34
we were there. And so there's like 17 different
35:37
languages going on and I'm like, this is amazing, this is
35:40
incredible. You know what?
35:42
Hey, what's funny about that is I've read all of his books too.
35:46
But wouldn't you say, James, I want to put words in your mouth,
35:48
but I've read them all. But there's still the classic is
35:52
fresh wind, Fresh fire. Absolutely.
35:55
Yeah, it's the. Classic.
35:55
It's the one that once. You read that one, Yeah.
35:59
Now one thing that you said that I want to hit back on before we
36:02
get to this eighth question that we're going to talk about and
36:05
then we're going to jump into leaving the IFB and what that
36:08
look like, because I think it's going to help some people talk
36:10
to it. One of the things in college
36:12
that I experienced that and I think I was one of the guys that
36:14
sat down in your in your office one day because we were out and
36:17
we were riding in the truck and you were playing K love on your
36:20
car and we're listening to worship music.
36:23
And I just remember thinking, if I were to listen to this in
36:26
college, I would get in trouble. I would get fined, I would get
36:30
the merits. I would get, you know, campus,
36:32
all these things. But hey, Eric's listening to it
36:35
like the, the, the pastor of the college is listening to it.
36:38
I can listen to it the next day in Chapel.
36:41
Someone was there, Tony Hudson, Tony Shirley, someone.
36:44
And they were preaching against contemporary music.
36:47
And I remember thinking, hold on, this isn't right.
36:49
Like they're preaching against what what the pastor's talking
36:52
about, what he's listening to. So I went to you and I'm like,
36:54
hey, Eric, listen in college, they're preaching against what
36:57
you were doing. Like I'm concerned about you,
37:00
like what's going on here. And and you were just trying to
37:03
manage that a little bit and so. That was 1.
37:05
Of those situations that that you were talking about just that
37:08
clashing of trying to figure out bringing people in to to lead on
37:12
staff, but necessarily didn't line up where where your vision
37:16
was for the college it. Was tough, yeah.
37:19
So what, where do you see and this sort of curtailing with,
37:23
with your time of house, with your time of champion and, and
37:25
all these things, the relationship between the local
37:27
church and Christian higher education.
37:30
Some people would say, hey, if I go back, maybe.
37:33
So for instance, my, I grew up a gospel in Salisbury.
37:36
We had a college that started for one year in 1993 was the
37:40
first year of it. That year the church burnt down
37:43
and they didn't restart the college.
37:45
They shut the school down. They replanted the church into
37:47
another location of the school or another location of town and
37:51
just really restarted the church.
37:53
So is Christian higher education a part of the church?
37:56
Is it not? A lot of, you know, PCC, it's a
37:59
separate entity, Liberty, it's a separate entity.
38:02
Like where? Where do you see the local
38:05
education of the higher education of college ministry
38:08
and the local church? Great question.
38:11
Yeah. Well, again, I think there is a
38:15
model that is probably not just independent Baptist.
38:22
I think that this would probably be Missionary Baptist as well.
38:26
There's quite a few models out there, if you will, that have
38:30
been structured to where the the college like ours was initially
38:34
right birthed out of the church and it's a ministry of the
38:37
church. It's not got a separate 5O1C3
38:40
tax ID All that's the same because it is a ministry of the
38:45
church. We realized, and this was tough
38:51
because the board of our, of our college at that time was our
38:55
Deacon board. And it was when we decided to
38:59
transition, I realized, OK, I've got to get a board now because
39:05
to get accredited to become an accredited college.
39:10
We're going. To have to form a board, it's
39:11
very risky because they could vote me out.
39:14
I'm not a member of the board. I mean, the way you structure
39:16
the board, I'm, I'm just an employee.
39:18
I'm the, the board is my boss. It was one of the most, I think
39:23
one of the most, I'll say it, kind of funny, courageous things
39:26
I've ever done because I mean, this was my baby.
39:29
And I realized, Eric, you know, this is the right thing to do.
39:33
This is to, to become an accredited institution is going
39:36
to help you to, to help your students to have something more
39:41
than just a piece of paper. Now I'm answering that.
39:43
I'm saying that even though it doesn't quite answer your
39:45
question, I will say this that I do believe it is very healthy
39:50
Champion to have a local church on its property.
39:52
But we are two separate institutions like Thomas Rd. is
39:56
from Liberty. But I love that model.
39:59
I think the fact that Thomas Rd. is on the campus of Liberty,
40:02
that Gospel light is on the campus of Champion, that there
40:06
is such value in that and there is a connection.
40:10
In fact, every every. College that has ever been a
40:15
Christian college was formed and birthed from a denomination and
40:19
or a church. So I do believe that the
40:22
healthiest and and and strongest and and even, I'll say best
40:27
colleges have a local church connection.
40:30
Do I think it's necessary? No, I I I don't think it's for
40:34
every church. I I, I, but I do believe that
40:37
there isn't when I sell champion today, even though I let them
40:41
know they don't have to go to gospel light.
40:42
It's not a requirement. They do not, they could go to
40:45
any church in town, but the fact that there's a church on campus
40:50
says a lot about who we are. And so I'm, I'm, of course, we
40:54
have a Christian School too. I would be a little more radical
40:58
about the Christian School because I am a proponent of
41:01
Christian education, although I don't, I've never preached a
41:04
sermon against home school, public school, one room school.
41:09
I've never and never will, by the way.
41:10
I think it's a parental decision.
41:13
It's up to the authority of a parent to make that decision for
41:16
their child. But convictionally, I would not
41:20
have sent my kids to a public school convict, but I would.
41:22
It's kind of like, you know, the difference between being King
41:27
James only and saying I use the King James.
41:29
You know, I mean, I'm so I and I don't anymore, not just FYI.
41:34
But all that to say, I hope that answered your question, but I
41:38
don't I, I feel like Christian education.
41:40
It's important that there is a connection to either a
41:43
denomination or a church. For instance, we went to I, I, I
41:48
went to Ronnie see Ronnie Floyd up there at Cross Church in, in,
41:54
in Rogers and I asked Ronnie, I said, Doctor Floyd is what I
41:58
call it. So Doctor Floyd, do you think I
42:00
should attempt to make champion a Southern Baptist college?
42:03
And his answer was this. He said, Eric, he said, I'd wait
42:07
till you're bigger. He said, you're still small.
42:10
We've got Washita, we've got Williams in Arkansas, he said.
42:13
I think you probably should one day attempt to present yourself
42:18
as a candidate for an SPC college.
42:20
There's a lot of money in it, there's a lot of support.
42:23
There's a lot of great things about it.
42:24
There's some negative things about it.
42:25
There's some other things that you probably don't want, Maybe
42:28
you won't want to do it. But he said the advantage is the
42:32
fact that there is a A there should be at least and for most
42:36
colleges. And I heard there was some good
42:38
things that happened at the convention this year with the
42:40
seminaries. That was that, that gave us
42:42
more. I wasn't there, James.
42:44
You can speak to that later. But so I hope I've answered your
42:47
question. But I do think that there is a,
42:49
a, a, a positive characteristic of, of, of colleges that are
42:57
attached to churches. Yeah, I can.
43:00
Agree with that and I I, you know, I didn't know any other
43:04
colleges. I was our our independent
43:06
Baptist Church was was very isolated.
43:07
We knew Bobby Robertson. That was about it.
43:10
And so when coming to champion it, it gave me a vision for what
43:15
church could be in a bigger, grander scale than what I could
43:18
ever imagine. And I think Brett can attest
43:20
that he's talked about with with houses well and even tri-state
43:23
of of being attached. You get to see that personal
43:26
connectiveness of what college and and church ministry and what
43:29
ministry looks like on the ground level.
43:32
You know, starting a Saturday Bible club for teenagers with
43:35
Next generation. But we started there, you know,
43:37
for a year and a half and seeing teenagers from the communities
43:40
come and having church with us and meeting in the basketball
43:43
court, meeting in the youth center.
43:44
Like it was just, it was things that we could do that we
43:47
wouldn't be able to do without the support of having a local
43:51
church there. And me personally, I met my wife
43:54
a champion. And so, through gospel, he was.
43:57
A member of Gospel. Yeah, yeah.
43:58
So. So that was that was a big plus
44:00
there. So yeah, there's a.
44:01
Lot of things I could say about that, even hearing you talking.
44:03
There's so many things that that come to mind now about even even
44:08
on another note, the fact that when a when a college has a
44:12
church, there is there's an accountability.
44:15
I'm telling you, it has helped us, even though we are quote, UN
44:19
quote, you know, because we're accredited, some people would
44:22
look at us as more liberal or, you know, our our student body
44:25
isn't as spiritual, not full with a bunch of preachers.
44:29
But these kids, man, they are hearing the gospel every week
44:33
either in Chapel or in church. Many of them get saved and
44:36
baptized throughout the school year.
44:38
It's exciting. And so I'm convinced that if we
44:41
did not have gospel light, I don't, I think Champion will be
44:44
off the rails now. Yeah.
44:46
But I think it there's been a level of accountability as well
44:49
found. My new name found that good
44:53
grace found that healing, and the tears fell down my face when
44:58
I found my beginning. And it has no ending.
45:00
I found that second chance, found my best friend, found my
45:02
forgiveness, found my happiness. I've been singing ever since.
45:04
I found my freedom. Thanks for listening to the Four
45:22
Freedom Podcast. If you enjoyed our content, do
45:25
us a favor by liking, subscribing, or sharing our
45:29
podcast on whichever podcast platform you use.
45:32
Be sure to join us next time for The Four Freedom Podcast.