Latest / The Curve / The Art of Asking for More (and Getting It), with Meggie Palmer.

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The Art of Asking for More (and Getting It), with Meggie Palmer. · The Curve

0:00
Gosh, this feels quite fun.
0:02
I am recording this from inside my new favorite thing.
0:07
So unless you're watching the video to this,
0:08
you're gonna have no idea what I'm talking about.
0:11
Can you hear that?
0:13
That is the sweet, sweet sounds of my new Lexus.
0:16
I never really thought of myself as much of a car girly.
0:20
I've always been one of those people
0:22
that never really could see myself driving a nice car.
0:27
And let me just tell you,
0:28
that has entirely changed.
0:30
Now I cannot imagine myself in any other car.
0:33
Like I haven't known what I've been missing out on,
0:35
but now I'm absolutely ruined for any other car.
0:40
I've felt like I've got my shit together while driving this car.
0:44
I turn up to meetings with confidence.
0:47
I don't park my car around the corner
0:49
because I'm embarrassed of it.
0:50
I don't know, I guess just driving it has made me realize
0:53
how much luxury and enjoying something
0:58
that is within my reach.
0:59
Like this is not an unrealistic car for me to say for,
1:02
which yeah, it's just, I don't know.
1:04
It's just changed my perspective on what I would want to invest in
1:08
and what kind of car I would feel as a long term investment.
1:11
And I think that when it comes to investing in a car
1:15
because let's be honest, it's not an easy quick purchase.
1:19
You've definitely got to think about it
1:22
and work towards a big goal like buying a any big ticket item,
1:26
whether it be a car or something else,
1:28
but it's just made me feel way more motivated and excited
1:31
to one day have a car like this.
1:33
And so what we've done with Lexus is create,
1:36
it's like a co-branded kind of educational resource.
1:40
Basically, it's a pretty PDF
1:43
that you can just download from the podcast show notes.
1:45
And the purpose of it was just to come up
1:47
with some really clever, tangible, straightforward steps
1:51
that will help you save and actually get towards
1:54
that financial goal, whether it's saving for a Lexus,
1:57
whether it's saving for a holiday.
1:59
I think that a lot of the time we think
2:01
something luxurious is totally out of our budget,
2:03
but actually it just comes down to planning.
2:06
Yeah, so if saving for a car or something like that
2:09
is something that you would like
2:11
or you just want to know what those sort of tips and tricks are
2:13
then it's a totally free resource.
2:16
And you can just download it from the podcast show notes.
2:18
But most importantly, thank you so much to Lexus
2:21
for letting me drive in this absolutely phenomenal car.
2:25
I have just found so much cooler.
2:27
I pulled a driver and like picking up friends,
2:30
I'm like, don't worry, I'll drive.
2:32
No, it's fine, I'll pick you up.
2:34
Yeah, thank you so much, Lexus, big, big fan.
2:37
You ruined me for life.
2:43
Maggie, I'm really stoked.
2:44
I was like, I know I need to prepare for this,
2:46
but also I kind of don't.
2:47
Also, we're just gonna talk all these money salary
2:51
and negotiation.
2:51
We've got this.
2:52
Also, just like, you know, when you don't know someone
2:54
and you're trying to prepare for an interview,
2:56
it's actually you do have to really do your research.
2:58
You know, and I just thought, yeah, 15 minutes on me,
3:01
you'll be fine.
3:02
And there's nothing to prepare.
3:04
This is gonna be awesome.
3:05
But anyone who has an all listened to our first podcast
3:08
with Megan, raising the code 60,
3:10
how to negotiate a pay rise.
3:12
And go back and listen because if you are thinking,
3:15
God, I really like, I want to get a pay rise.
3:18
I don't really know how to do it.
3:19
This is a really good episode to listen to.
3:21
Today, we're doing something a tiny bit different.
3:23
We started this thing called kerfballs.
3:25
Yeah, I love it.
3:25
So kerfballs is essentially like,
3:27
what is like a sticky, hairy situation
3:29
you've got yourself in related to money?
3:31
And quite a few of them have come through
3:33
that are about getting a pay rise.
3:35
And I thought, who do we need to get on for these?
3:39
Good thing, Chen Wag about salary and pay rise to girls.
3:42
Yeah, let's do it.
3:43
So we're gonna do that.
3:44
But before we head into it,
3:45
I want to sort of like a quick fire with you.
3:47
Kind of like a bit of a,
3:48
I was just, when I was thinking about what I wanted
3:51
to talk to you about us,
3:52
thinking if the gender pay gap did not exist,
3:55
like let's just for a second pretend
3:57
that that's not a thing, okay?
3:59
So we're in a world right now where that's not a thing.
4:02
And it just, yeah, we're just imagining it.
4:05
Okay.
4:05
I want to know because I have this theory
4:07
that even if it didn't exist,
4:09
even if men and women were most of the time
4:12
paid equally for the same jobs,
4:14
I still have this theory that guys would get more pay rises
4:17
and have more money because they know how to negotiate,
4:21
they know how to, they are probably more comfortable
4:23
talking about money.
4:24
That's kind of this weird theory I have.
4:26
Okay.
4:27
So my thought here is,
4:28
we're gonna pretend that it doesn't exist.
4:30
However, we're also going to keep in mind
4:32
that women generally avoid uncomfortable conversations.
4:35
This is a huge generalization, by the way.
4:38
But my point here is just I do think
4:41
when it comes to asking for money or talking about money,
4:44
we're a bit more hesitant than our male counterparts.
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I think it's getting better, but it's still a thing.
4:50
Weirdly when I used to go for pay rises,
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I kind of like gamified it
4:54
and I was sort of got weird kicks out of getting a pay rise.
4:56
Like I was just like, do you know what?
4:58
Like I will leave if you don't pay me.
5:01
Like I was really bossy about it.
5:02
And I don't know where it came from.
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And all other parts of my life didn't have the same confidence.
5:07
However, when it came to pay rises,
5:09
I was like, really knew my worth.
5:12
What would be some top tips for people who,
5:16
regardless of if you're getting paid the same,
5:18
it doesn't matter.
5:19
It's the idea that we want to always be getting more.
5:22
We want to make sure that we are on the top end
5:25
of what we should be compared to other people,
5:26
gender or relevant.
5:28
What are some top, top important tips
5:31
and things that we can all start exercising
5:34
to ensure that when it comes to a pay conversation,
5:36
a promotion, we've done the leg work
5:40
to be confident for that conversation.
5:42
Totally.
5:43
And I think a lot of people and maybe a lot of your listeners,
5:45
they've got a pay raise conversation on Friday,
5:47
so maybe on the Thursday, they'll start to prep, right?
5:49
Which is fine.
5:51
If you're looking for an extra $500 a year,
5:53
maybe an extra one on $2,000 a year.
5:55
But if you want like 5, 10, 30, 50, 100K extra a year
6:00
in this conversation, you better put in the reps
6:02
ahead of time to prep for that.
6:04
Because you better believe that HR has done their prep
6:07
or that your boss has done some preparation.
6:10
So the way I kind of boil it down
6:11
is like there's three steps.
6:13
The first is to know your value.
6:14
The second is to track your contributions
6:16
and the third is to kind of surround yourself
6:17
with cheerleaders, right?
6:19
And so these are things that, sure,
6:20
you can do it 24 hours ahead of time,
6:22
but it's so much better if this is like a consistent practice
6:25
that you do throughout the year.
6:26
So like knowing your value is kind of to your point
6:29
around like being prepared to walk out the door and leave,
6:31
you have so much more leverage.
6:33
Like, and I used to do the same thing.
6:34
I don't know where the confidence came from.
6:36
Well, we were just going to do the young
6:38
and just like, I don't even know.
6:39
We may have just really good at our jobs.
6:41
Well, that helps.
6:43
I mean, that's true.
6:44
If you're competent, that gives you confidence, right?
6:46
Like I knew I was good at it.
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So I think we're, it gets sticky
6:50
as if you're learning something new.
6:51
You're in an unfamiliar role.
6:53
Maybe you're out of your comfort zone.
6:55
Yeah.
6:55
But you still need to have the same confidence
6:57
when it comes to those conversations,
6:58
which I think is hard.
7:00
Well, and preparation is so important, right?
7:02
Because the reality is that if you or I,
7:05
any of you listeners are going into Perry's conversation,
7:07
I already know what the outcome is.
7:09
I know the outcome of any number of thousands
7:11
of Perry's conversations.
7:12
There's only three outcomes.
7:14
Like you're going to get told, yes.
7:16
You're going to get told, no.
7:17
Or you'll be told, maybe.
7:19
We already know.
7:20
So you can literally map that out
7:22
on butcher's paper or on a notebook
7:23
or whatever it is on a whiteboard.
7:25
If they say, yes, I'm going to ask for this.
7:26
If they say, no, I'm going to say these exact phrases.
7:29
If they say, maybe this is where I'm going to pivot
7:30
the conversation.
7:32
So you can, you can kind of like mind map
7:33
prepare that ahead of time.
7:35
And you should know in a meeting.
7:37
Like, can we have that in front of us?
7:39
I feel very good about notes.
7:40
You've got a laptop right here with notes.
7:42
I respect that to me that your laptop and your notes
7:44
shows to me that you've done research
7:46
that you're like details oriented.
7:48
Like walking with a folder.
7:50
Walking with like, hey, I've tracked my,
7:52
I've just have it there with you.
7:53
I mean, you might be having the conversation virtually.
7:55
So why wouldn't you have a notepad?
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Why wouldn't you have a Google doc with the phrases,
7:59
the exact wording, the numbers written down?
8:01
Like, I don't judge people for that.
8:04
You know, when it comes to like being prepared,
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I think you can go and you can do the work
8:07
outside of the room.
8:09
I find in the room, I just my prefrontal cortex
8:13
just switches off and I forget my name.
8:15
Sometimes it's not normal.
8:17
That's the way your brain works.
8:18
Okay, so we're okay to bring notes.
8:20
That's great.
8:21
We're really okay to bring notes.
8:22
Okay.
8:23
You know, if you want to fly it just like,
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you know, you bring a notepad or you bring your phone
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and a glass of bottle of water,
8:28
like just kind of have it on, you know,
8:30
whether you want to sort of have them explicitly
8:31
on the table or put them in a notepad
8:33
and just kind of open it up to that page.
8:34
It's totally up to you.
8:36
But I also think you can sort of say,
8:37
I've been doing my research throughout the year.
8:39
I've printed these things out here.
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So I've got a record of them.
8:41
Should I need to refer to those?
8:43
But he is one of the things
8:43
I'm really excited to talk to you about today.
8:45
Like, you can just fly.
8:46
Oh my God, I even just hear him talk.
8:48
I'm like starting to squire.
8:50
So let's fly.
8:51
Why?
8:52
Why, like, let's let's unpack this because,
8:54
so for people who are not watching the video version,
8:56
like, so it's like literally like crumbled
8:57
into herself as a child as a boy.
8:59
Like a little raisin.
9:00
You're feeling a bit anxious.
9:01
Yes, I think it's...
9:02
You're feeling a bit anxious.
9:03
I feel a bit eki and I think it's for cause.
9:07
I think I find when I'm like being naturally confident
9:11
as it just comes out and I'm not trying.
9:13
Yeah.
9:14
I feel fine.
9:15
Okay.
9:16
As soon as I feel like I need to put like a bit of armor on
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or I am trying to like,
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I don't know how to explain it.
9:23
I just think maybe it's also being afraid of being too much
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or too this or which I really thought I'd move through
9:31
but clearly not.
9:32
Well, it's really interesting as in it
9:34
and it's not your fault either
9:35
because if we think about this for all of us listening,
9:37
like we've all been conditioned to behave a certain way
9:40
since we were born.
9:41
And so to your earlier point around the gender pay gap, right?
9:44
So the gender pay gap,
9:45
I hope that we can manifest this world that you mentioned earlier
9:48
where the gender pay gap doesn't exist equally.
9:50
We know that the gender pay gap starts at the age of eight
9:54
because there's been three separate studies
9:56
in three different countries that has proved
9:58
that little girls get paid less pocket money,
10:01
less allowance than little boys, right?
10:04
From a really young age.
10:06
And like obviously parents are not doing that to be assholes.
10:08
It's because it's unconscious.
10:09
Wait, it's because parents doing it.
10:11
Yeah, because parents decide how much pocket money someone has.
10:13
Wait, so we've got little Johnny and little Jane.
10:15
Yeah.
10:16
The parents are having parents.
10:17
Same parents.
10:18
Johnny more on average.
10:20
Yeah, when we look at a house.
10:21
Yeah, exactly.
10:23
And the reason is because there's this concept,
10:26
there's this perception that some work is tough work.
10:29
So like mowing the lawn or chopping firewood is like hard work.
10:34
And maybe in a generalized world, perhaps the little boys
10:37
would be helping with that.
10:38
And the little girls might be helping to set the table
10:41
or prepare a meal or do some laundry in the house.
10:43
This is generalizing, right?
10:45
And that is considered easier work.
10:47
And therefore not worth as much.
10:48
And therefore not worth as much pocket money.
10:50
And so the reason I'm sharing this is because
10:53
you're feeling a bit ick about coming across as too much.
10:56
That's because as women we are socialised to know our place.
11:01
There'd be people pleases to keep the peace to stay in our box.
11:04
That's the way that the patriarchy has basically conditioned us to behave.
11:09
So there's nothing wrong with you as what I'm trying to say.
11:12
Like you've been conditioned that way so have I.
11:15
So have most of our listeners.
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And we really have to work.
11:17
I've had to work quite hard to try and shift that mindset
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and to try and rewind my brain in how I think about things,
11:24
which is a process that I have to go through every day.
11:26
I went to a net, like I'm not a networking.
11:28
It was like a personal branding event a few months ago.
11:30
And it was really amazing.
11:31
One of the things that she said was,
11:33
and it was all around the idea of blue behaviour wrapped in pink.
11:38
So it's the idea of you.
11:40
Oh, yeah.
11:41
So it's like we are in the system.
11:42
Yes.
11:43
You do have to play to like what's going on.
11:45
Yeah.
11:46
But so you can you can have blue behaviour with a pink wrapping.
11:49
And like I don't know if that really lands because I'm really not explaining it well.
11:52
But it was kind of essentially what she was saying is you can be direct.
11:56
You can be like you can be all those things.
11:59
But unfortunately the world we live in is if you go too far,
12:03
you're considered rude, bossy, blah, blah, blah.
12:06
Does that mean you're a pushover? No.
12:08
But it's it's finding a way to work the system to get what you need and want
12:13
without compromising your own values.
12:15
Values.
12:16
Yeah.
12:17
So I guess, okay, back to the idea of a paradise.
12:19
If we're going into a room and it's not natural for us to step into our power
12:23
and that way to be prepared to have our notes to be, you know,
12:26
feeling like we know what we're about to ask for.
12:28
Yeah.
12:29
What kind of like things could someone like practice or do?
12:32
Yes.
12:33
To try and at least pretend to feel like they're going into that well prepared.
12:38
So one of the things you talked about earlier,
12:40
you felt like your brain was just kind of going to fight or flight mode.
12:43
Just even the conversation and starting to practice having these conversations.
12:47
And our brain is there to protect us, right?
12:49
And possibly you may have had a traumatic experience negotiating
12:52
or having a tough conversation at work in the past.
12:54
And so when you think about having another conversation like that,
12:57
or when we role play some of the phrases that you can use,
13:00
your brain is remembering that and protecting you by creating an anxious reaction
13:04
so that you can kind of put up your armor and be prepared to kind of quote-unquote fight.
13:08
And so one of the things that I always say to people is if you're going
13:11
into have a conversation around salary or money on negotiation,
13:14
I don't want the first time you have that conversation to be in that moment.
13:18
I need you to prepare with a roommate, with your dad, with your best mate, with the person.
13:23
Yeah, the mirror, get out your iPhone, you know, selfie it, all that kind of stuff
13:27
because your brain doesn't know necessarily that that's not the real deal.
13:31
But all of a sudden you've verbalized what you need to say.
13:33
You've had the anxiety come up, you said the number out loud whatever.
13:36
So your brain the next time you walk into that scenario is going to be a little bit calmer,
13:41
a little bit calmer, a little bit calmer.
13:43
So we kind of want to trick our brain into being able to hand all those high-stress situations
13:48
in a really confident, calm way.
13:51
And the best way to do that, it's not sexy, it's not necessarily fun and it does take time,
13:54
but practice.
13:56
And that's why musicians practice, practice, practice so that when they get on stage
13:59
they don't freak out and press the wrong key or do the wrong note or whatever.
14:02
It's like you have to go through that process so it becomes instinctual.
14:06
So perhaps instinctively when someone says listen, Sophie,
14:10
thanks for asking for their pay raise, but it's not going to happen we can't afford it.
14:14
Instinctively, most of us would probably, what would you instinctively say?
14:17
Okay, no worries, thank you.
14:18
Correct.
14:19
No worries, thanks anyway.
14:20
I just thought I'd ask, yeah, that's our instinctive behaviour.
14:23
And what I want you to say is if you ask for an extra $10,000 and they say,
14:27
oh, we'd love to, we can't afford it.
14:29
I want you to say, I'd love you to tell me more about that decision.
14:33
Oh God, I want to eat the microphone.
14:36
Right.
14:37
So, but it's practicing to say, or if you're feeling boggy, I've got to be honest with you.
14:42
I understand where you're coming from.
14:44
I am a little disappointed and I really want to understand where that decision's come from.
14:50
So basically, I know the way I look at it is just to not right now.
14:54
Right.
14:55
So that's the way I kind of look at when you get a stone wall in a negotiation is,
14:59
we're trying to get to the bottom of this because they might say, well, you know,
15:02
you really stuffed up that project or Coca-Cola didn't renew because,
15:07
because of whatever you did on this, I don't know, case you were working on,
15:10
whatever the case may be, you might be able to sort of say, oh, actually,
15:13
I think you're thinking of Megan, not Maggie or whatever, like maybe they've made a mistake.
15:17
Maybe you can rectify it and say, hey, let's circle back in three months time.
15:21
If I can address that, would you reconsider that in six months time?
15:24
It gives you a pathway to continue the conversation because the way I look at it
15:29
is like negotiation is not like a fight. It's not an argument.
15:32
It doesn't have to be an aggressive thing. It's just a conversation.
15:35
We're investigators.
15:36
Yeah, you kind of try to be like, yeah, we're dealing with your little IP.
15:40
Yeah, what are they thinking? Magnifying thoughts.
15:42
Okay, interesting. So you think that I did this just so you know that's what happened.
15:45
And then it's like, now are you fine? No, okay. We'll find the next problem.
15:48
We're trying to just keep it to that conversation, right?
15:50
Because when we think about the idea of a negotiation, sometimes you're like,
15:53
oh, that's only for bankers on Wall Street or that's for like really smart lawyers or whatever.
15:57
And sometimes those of us who are not bankers or lawyers, i.e. me,
16:00
we sometimes think, well, I can't negotiate.
16:02
But actually, when we reframe it from an negotiation is just a conversation.
16:06
All of us can have a conversation whether you're an extrovert or an introvert.
16:10
All of us can have a conversation.
16:11
And that's what you're trying to do. If they say no, say, I hear what you've said.
16:15
Loved to understand that decision making process.
16:17
We just want to continue the chatting so that you can get to the bottom of it.
16:21
Because they might say, listen, you just don't have a future here.
16:25
Great.
16:26
Oh, gosh.
16:27
I'd rather they tell me now.
16:28
I mean, I can figure out my plan B. Instead of them going not right now and not right now
16:31
and then five years later, you're still stuck in a dead-end job.
16:33
And you should have known 12 months ago.
16:35
And you could have gone out and started interviewing and whatever.
16:37
So it's like, we're not always going to like the outcome.
16:40
But we need to hear it.
16:42
We need to.
16:43
Yeah.
16:44
What does some other good one line is?
16:45
I love that one.
16:46
I think that's such a good one.
16:47
Because I do think sometimes it's that the brain stops working.
16:52
And you think I know I need to continue this conversation, but I don't know what else to say.
16:56
Totally.
16:57
What are some other ways to continue the conversation if they've said no or they're feeling prickly
17:01
and it's not going the way that you like?
17:03
What are some other like, okay, we're going to divert it over here.
17:06
Yeah.
17:07
Like one line is.
17:08
Yeah.
17:09
So I always like, I really like to prepare these things ahead of time.
17:12
And as I said, I literally mind map out in advance what the yes, no, or the maybe scenario will be.
17:17
And anyone listening really encourages you to do the same thing.
17:19
Alex Carter, who's a friend of mine, she's an amazing woman.
17:22
She's written a book called Ask for More.
17:24
She talks about this amazing phrase that she, she uses in a lot of her negotiation work around the world, which is tell me.
17:31
So if you say, if, if I asked someone for a $5,000 pay raise and they say no, I could be really pissed off.
17:36
I'm like, well, you and screw you and this bullshit and storm out.
17:39
Right?
17:40
Or you can say, okay, yeah, no, that's okay.
17:42
Well, okay, no worries.
17:43
And then you could just kind of walk out of the room or you could use Alex's phrase, which is tell me.
17:47
Like tell me more about like how you came to this decision.
17:50
Or that's interesting.
17:51
Tell me more about that.
17:52
Or say more about that.
17:53
Or love to understand who is involved in this decision making process.
17:57
Or tell me what you need from me in future so that we can make this an easy yes going forward.
18:02
So the phrase tell me can be really useful.
18:04
It's non-confrontational.
18:05
It's very open.
18:06
It's very kind of objective.
18:08
It doesn't have like an angry or a super happy connotation either.
18:11
So it could be like tell me.
18:15
Is there planned or money put aside for future pay rises in the next six months?
18:20
Yeah.
18:21
Or tell me your plan for renumeration.
18:24
No, but you know, and I think you could and also there's also no shame in saying.
18:28
Like if you feel like you're sort of getting lost for words or feeling a bit overwhelmed.
18:32
You can also say to them, listen, I've heard what you said.
18:35
I'm going to with your permission.
18:36
I'm going to process this and can we circle back tomorrow morning?
18:39
Like there is no shame in stopping a meeting and coming back later.
18:43
But you can do that if it's on the phone, if it's on a zoom, if it's in person.
18:46
You can say, hey, listen, can you give me three hours or 30 minutes or 24 hours to process this?
18:51
Because I want to really think this through thoughtfully.
18:53
And I'd love to continue this conversation later.
18:56
So you've always got that as a worst case scenario in your back pocket to kind of come back to you.
19:00
Just continue the conversation later.
19:01
Or say, you know what, I'm going to need a restroom break.
19:04
And we can you give me five minutes.
19:05
That's a really good one.
19:06
Yeah.
19:07
One of my mates, he was the chief negotiator for JLo.
19:12
And so he has shared with me.
19:14
I know he's amazing.
19:15
He has shared with me some of his negotiating tips.
19:18
Obviously dealing with massive global brands, all this kind of stuff.
19:21
But he said when he was working for a very, very big law firm,
19:24
one of the tactics that they used to use that feel free to borrow all of your listeners was,
19:29
if they were on a call, they were doing a high stakes negotiation.
19:32
They'd be like, okay, yes, I heard what you say Roger, understood Madeline blah, blah, blah.
19:36
And then he'd go, oh, I'm just, wait, wait, wait.
19:39
And then he'd just hang up.
19:40
He'd hang up.
19:41
Call.
19:42
And then he'd checks it and be like, I'm going through the tunnel.
19:45
I've lost service.
19:46
And he'd just think for five minutes and then call them back.
19:48
That's genius.
19:49
Yes.
19:50
So I'm like, I'm not saying I always believe in transparency and being honest.
19:53
That's very important.
19:54
And also do what you got to do if you need to buy yourself some time.
19:58
That's so good.
20:00
And I just love that he actually shared that.
20:02
Because you know, I know.
20:03
Big wash up people can be sometimes I have real gatekeeper with the word.
20:07
And also, as if they've always got it together.
20:09
Yeah.
20:10
But like, faking that you're going through a tunnel is iconic.
20:12
Yeah.
20:13
So iconic.
20:14
And he was just like, because he's like, when things were getting too heated.
20:16
He's like, often we would say, you know what?
20:18
We're going to take a five minute convenience break.
20:20
We're going to take a five minute break.
20:21
He's like, that was very normal.
20:22
But he's like, even on the phone.
20:23
He's like, I may or may not have been known to occasionally pretend that the line was cutting out.
20:27
Because he was like, I couldn't think straight.
20:29
And this is someone who's like hyper intelligent top of his game.
20:32
Ivy League educated, et cetera.
20:34
So I'm sharing this so that folks understand that like even people who do this for a living, you know, 12 hours a day.
20:40
They also get frazzled too.
20:42
And so it's okay if you do too.
20:44
And there's no, as I said, if you want to even write down how you would get out of jail free if you needed a break.
20:49
Write that down on your notes and say, hey, I just want to process this.
20:53
Can we circle back in 20 minutes or could we could we catch up again tomorrow so that I can unpack this further with you?
20:58
I really want to learn from from your process.
21:00
And so what I can do better in future.
21:02
And then you can just go away, process the disappointment, cry if you want to cry.
21:06
Be excited if you want to be excited and come back in a more rational state.
21:09
But that's really the worst case scenario.
21:11
You're not always going to need to do that.
21:12
You can obviously use the phrase, tell me.
21:14
And I think also embracing silence is really powerful.
21:18
So I was literally about to say to you, how do deal with silence and is it a good thing?
21:23
In a negotiation,
21:26
mentally being prepared to sit in silence is very powerful.
21:30
And I am a people pleaser.
21:32
And so sitting with silence makes me uncomfortable.
21:35
I want other people to work on that.
21:37
I'm like, oh, well, now we're sitting here waiting.
21:39
I'll just let you know about what I had for breakfast.
21:41
It's like, it's like one egg.
21:43
And that's, and that's, and that's a, that's a strength, right?
21:46
In many instances, that's a strength.
21:47
And in negotiation, it's a, it's a two way street.
21:50
And so you need to be prepared to say, you know,
21:53
the compensation I'm looking for is north of 200,000.
21:59
I just sit there and just, you know,
22:02
and, and, and there could be a 30 to 60 second break.
22:05
No.
22:06
Well, I mean, sometimes I see seconds.
22:08
Well, but, and also if you just sit there,
22:11
you've put the number out there, you better believe the other party will eventually fill that air time.
22:16
It might take some time, but they will, you don't have to fill that.
22:20
Like you are within your rights to make that request.
22:22
You've been polite.
22:23
You've been candid.
22:24
You've been honest.
22:25
It's fine to put it out there.
22:27
They can fill the silence.
22:28
Because, you know, often our instinct is, you know,
22:31
my request is north of 200,000.
22:33
But if you can't, it's okay.
22:34
And I totally get it.
22:35
And I know by just the time I know the economy and inflation.
22:37
And so that's true.
22:38
I can move in with my mom.
22:39
I don't mind.
22:40
Exactly.
22:41
And so it's straight away that gives them permission to say,
22:43
oh, okay.
22:44
So she doesn't really need north of 200,000, right?
22:47
So you, you have to own your number.
22:50
Own the number.
22:51
And you've got to know what those numbers are.
22:53
So I always say people would say, you're the three W's.
22:55
The WWE, the wish, the want, and the walk.
22:58
You've got to know your wish number, your want number,
23:00
and your walk number.
23:01
Oh, that's really good.
23:02
Do you like that?
23:03
Yeah.
23:04
The wish, really do.
23:05
Yeah.
23:06
So because it's just the W's, that's easy to remember.
23:07
Exactly.
23:08
And you can write that down.
23:09
I had it full around there.
23:10
I had it full around there.
23:11
No, it's to your point around there.
23:12
Absolutely.
23:13
So like, the wish figure is like, OMG, I cannot believe.
23:17
I get paid this money.
23:18
This is offensive in a good way.
23:19
Like, what?
23:21
That's at one end of the spectrum.
23:22
And by the way, whatever you think that number is,
23:24
I'm going to ask you what to add tax.
23:26
I think literal tax or just like fun tax.
23:28
Just out like, so when I'm talking to Aussies, I say out of it a GST.
23:32
So like, let's say if you think your wish number is 200,000,
23:35
I would say to you, our GST make it 220.
23:37
At least.
23:38
And say that number out loud to at least three mates ahead of time,
23:41
preferably one of them a white male, because they may say to you,
23:44
so if that number should be closer to 320 or 420,
23:46
because we know that statistically they're going to be earning more
23:49
and have a higher expectation.
23:51
So your wish number is your f off number, your OMG.
23:54
This is a hecticly amazing number.
23:56
And then at the other end of the spectrum is your walk number,
23:59
where you're like, you know what?
24:01
I don't want to get out of bed for less than that.
24:03
It's not worth it.
24:04
I may as well stay where I am, or I may as well continue to side hustle,
24:07
or it's just, it's just not worth it.
24:10
It's an offensive number.
24:11
It's an offensive number where you feel disrespected
24:13
and it doesn't feel right.
24:14
And you can't give 110% for that number, right?
24:17
So that's your walk number.
24:19
And then your want number is the number where it's not necessarily in the middle
24:22
of those two numbers, but it is a number that would be between at some point,
24:25
where you're like, I feel really respected.
24:27
This is a fair figure.
24:28
I want to work hard for this amount of money.
24:30
They're compensating me well, and I'm going to work hard for them.
24:32
Because the thing is, you know, you're an employer.
24:34
I'm an employer.
24:35
Of course, budget is always a constraint.
24:38
And also, if I pay people badly,
24:41
they're going to leave or get pissed off and eventually leave or do bad work.
24:46
So it's that, you know, employers are also incentivized to pay people relatively well.
24:50
And I think that's the other thing is that everyone needs to realize listening.
24:53
You have power.
24:54
Sometimes you think that they have all the power because they're a fancy corporation,
24:57
but at the end of the day, they're not a charity.
24:59
Like they're paying you because you create value for them, you know?
25:03
And also how annoying it is to find someone new to do your job.
25:06
Oh my gosh.
25:07
It's actually really expensive.
25:08
Well, you know this from hiring yourself with all the amazing growth the curve has had recently.
25:12
Totally.
25:13
It's expensive.
25:14
Recruiting fees can be 20 to 30% of a salary.
25:16
If you're hiring someone on $300,000 a year,
25:19
the recruiting fee is going to be like 70 to $120,000.
25:22
That's a shit ton of money.
25:24
Like it's cheaper for them to give you a 30 grand raise than it is to go out and recruit.
25:28
Like that's just the reality in that particular instance.
25:31
And so for your listeners, it's like it's probably cheaper for them to just pay you a bit more.
25:35
You've got to ask for it, you've got to put a case forward,
25:38
which is why we built the pep talker app and all that kind of stuff,
25:40
and we can talk about that.
25:41
But like you've got to ask the question and realize that you have power
25:44
and to your point earlier in your career, you have the capacity to walk.
25:48
You may not want to and you may not have another job to go to yet,
25:51
but you can walk.
25:52
That's always a choice that you can make.
25:53
If you walk, if you're like, they offer you a walk number.
25:56
Yeah.
25:57
Do you walk literally that day or do you,
25:59
because like emergency fund, hello, but also,
26:02
oh, that's quite a lot.
26:04
Well, it just depends on the scenario.
26:06
So folks, you have, I mean, like there's things like how much do you have in savings?
26:10
What leverage do you have over the company?
26:12
For example, like in your back pocket, you know,
26:14
I'll give you an example of one of my clients.
26:16
She was sexually assaulted at work.
26:18
And so in her instance, she wouldn't just walk straight away.
26:21
She would say, I'm going to leave and you're going to pay me on the way out the door.
26:24
And he's why, because of the situation.
26:27
Wait, she was using that as like a backdrop to not getting a pay rise.
26:30
Or that was just like a conversation.
26:32
It was kind of like, it was something that happened to her that was horrendous.
26:36
And if this is like, so what I'm saying is hypothetically,
26:38
if she was going through a pay raise conversation
26:40
and if she didn't like the offer that they gave her
26:42
and she was going to walk anyway,
26:44
I wouldn't say to her, storm out the door
26:46
and sign your resignation letter on the way out.
26:48
My advice to her would be sit down with them,
26:50
have a candid conversation and say, this isn't going to work.
26:52
You're not valuing my work.
26:54
You and I both know that I was assaulted on this time.
26:56
So I would like you to give me a package to go away quietly.
26:58
Or to go away not quietly.
27:00
These days actually companies are not asking folks to sign
27:02
NDAs as much, which is a good thing.
27:04
So, you know, if you're very junior in your career,
27:08
maybe you want to stay there because you might need to get a reference
27:10
from people, maybe you want to start to look for a job while you're out.
27:12
That employer, if it's so offensive,
27:14
maybe you do walk out the door.
27:16
If you don't care if money is not a huge driver,
27:18
if you and if you've got a huge savings balance,
27:20
it's really, it kind of depends on everyone's scenario.
27:22
But it's often better to be looking for a job when you have a job.
27:26
As well, right?
27:28
Because it's a stronger bargaining position.
27:30
So if I know you're unemployed and you're applying for a job,
27:32
that's not as strong as you've already got a great job.
27:34
And I'd be lucky to get you.
27:36
So you kind of have more leverage.
27:38
So it's a case by case scenario.
27:40
What about how do you feel about the compensation
27:42
versus your happiness at work?
27:44
Like, do you then play that then into how you look at?
27:48
So for example, like one of my questions,
27:50
just as, which I think would help a lot of people,
27:52
which I think would help a lot of people is,
27:54
lots of people are wondering, am I being paid fairly?
27:56
Can we get to other people for what I'm doing for my skills?
27:58
Yeah.
28:00
How do you then put in that piece of work enjoyment,
28:04
work fulfillment that maybe some people
28:06
that are doing a similar job that are hating it
28:08
and have a ship work environment
28:10
are getting paid more?
28:12
How do you quantify what that value looks like?
28:16
Yeah, and so that's, that to me,
28:18
is one of the non-monetary benefits
28:20
that we would negotiate.
28:22
So always I say to people, people who were in the pep talk
28:24
community and people who go through our programs,
28:26
it's always like, we want to get clear on our wish want walk number.
28:28
We want to map out our yes-no maybe scenario.
28:30
And then we want to also have a separate list
28:32
that we've brainstormed in advance
28:34
of like what are the non-monetary benefits
28:36
that we also want to negotiate?
28:38
So that might be three days a week working remotely.
28:40
That might be a nine day fortnight.
28:42
That might be business class travel
28:44
when you're going overseas for work, whatever it is.
28:46
So thinking about those things ahead of time
28:48
too, so that if you get a yes in a negotiation
28:52
and if it's an easy yes, you can then pivot straight away
28:54
to negotiate other things as well.
28:56
But you're also considering that piece of like work
28:58
for film and work enjoyment
29:00
as being valuable.
29:02
Totally.
29:04
How do you, because I think the thing is,
29:06
you know, what we're not just chasing
29:08
is like just dollars.
29:10
So we're chasing dollars and happiness of the film
29:12
and impact it.
29:14
And I mean, it's a reasonably non-fact
29:16
that like massive corporates.
29:18
There can be a lot of like,
29:20
kind of shit energy and lots of internal politics
29:22
and blah, blah, blah.
29:24
So how can people try and reframe
29:26
if they're looking at their friends
29:28
who are in a massive corporate earning way more
29:30
but they're enjoying it?
29:32
I don't know, it's just like it's a funny one to try and...
29:34
Well, you and I know that from big journalists, right?
29:36
Like we did not get, you and I both used to work as journalists
29:38
and I'm guessing now that we've got into journalism
29:40
for the money.
29:42
If it was just about money for our initial careers,
29:44
our sales or whatever.
29:46
Well, I actually weirdly think it's...
29:48
I had no idea what the pay would be.
29:50
I don't think I even knew what pay brackets
29:52
were or what were...
29:54
I mean, I knew these things like lawyers and doctors
29:56
aren't lots, but I kind of didn't think about that.
29:58
I wish I had known more.
30:00
Yeah, and I remember actually my dad saying that to me,
30:02
you know, like how much money do you earn as a journalist?
30:04
And I remember saying to him,
30:06
I must have been like 21.
30:08
I was like, if you love your work, the money will come.
30:10
And he kind of rolled his eyes.
30:12
The money will come.
30:14
And I think like quote unquote money,
30:16
I've got mates who are worth...
30:18
You can't even imagine how much money.
30:20
And you know what? They're looking...
30:22
They're now looking for like, what's their thing?
30:24
Like what do they care about in the world?
30:26
What is the thing that you would do even if you weren't getting paid?
30:28
Now, I'm not saying every job needs to be aligned for purpose.
30:30
For you and I, we're both fortunate that our jobs
30:32
do align with our purpose.
30:34
Yours is obviously supporting women to get wealthy.
30:36
Mine is aligned to closing the pay gap and closing the leadership gap.
30:38
It's what kind of drives me.
30:40
Or 100 or whatever.
30:42
Hopefully I won't have to do it for that long,
30:44
if we can close the pay gap sooner.
30:46
But I think you got to weigh that up.
30:48
And I've had job offers in the past that were more money.
30:50
But there was a level of stress or travel
30:52
or certain things about the leadership
30:54
that didn't align with who I wanted to be.
30:56
So I think it's a very individual question
30:58
because if I was a single mother,
31:00
a sole provider perhaps my decision-making matrix
31:02
would be a little bit different.
31:04
I have a good safety net.
31:06
I've been a good saver.
31:08
Even when I was a journalist,
31:10
when I left a network for paid discrimination,
31:12
I had investments to fall back on.
31:14
So I could have forward
31:16
to make that choice
31:18
and have that negotiation-slash argument with them about that.
31:20
If I was a single mother.
31:22
I was kind of sorry that I was quickly just remembered
31:24
we did go into detail about that in the first conversation
31:26
we had with you.
31:28
And it's fascinating.
31:30
It's just a reminder for anyone that hasn't less than
31:32
raising the curve 60.
31:34
Really.
31:36
Well, and I think that comes back to the core of the curve,
31:38
which is like money gives you,
31:40
yes, it gives you fancy cars and nice handbags
31:42
and allows you to go out to dinner.
31:44
That's all great.
31:46
And ultimately it gives you choice.
31:48
It gives you choice.
31:50
I think the situation of like,
31:52
do you accept the $300,000 job that is solace
31:54
and you'll hate or do you take the $100,000 job
31:56
that you're going to love and enjoy and make great mates?
31:58
It's really a case-by-case basis.
32:00
And I don't have the answer for that
32:02
because I think it's everyone's situation is different.
32:04
But I will say like, for example,
32:06
when I moved to New York City, I had this perception
32:08
that not for profits paid badly.
32:10
That's what I thought.
32:12
I just kind of thought, if you work at a charity,
32:14
you get paid shit.
32:16
That's what I thought growing up in Australia.
32:18
And my partner and some of my friends
32:20
have worked for very, very large charities,
32:22
very large not for profits in the United States.
32:24
And turns out in the United States,
32:26
they're competing with talent
32:28
from top consulting firms, top tech firms.
32:30
And so whilst you could definitely own more money
32:32
elsewhere, the compensation at not for profits in America
32:34
can be kind of amazing.
32:36
Like, seriously, good pay.
32:38
And so sometimes you have a perception
32:40
that I have to take a lower paying job
32:42
if I want to be happy.
32:44
But actually, you need to talk to people
32:46
and crowdsource continually and talk about your salary
32:48
and talk about money and compensation
32:50
because you may actually learn I could be almost
32:52
as happy over there and they actually pay a lot better.
32:54
You know what I mean?
32:56
So I just think it's about keeping the conversation open
32:58
and being transparent about money with friends,
33:00
with family members, with people that you contrast
33:02
so that we can start to break down those silos
33:04
of what that has to look like.
33:06
Yes, and I think actually that just
33:08
kind of gave me a brainwave as well.
33:10
It's like, if you really love
33:12
particular part of your job,
33:14
or you have skills, it's like,
33:16
also, if you're not being compensated
33:18
or you don't feel like you're being paid enough,
33:20
whatever it is,
33:22
that you start to look at how
33:24
you can transfer some of those skills or enjoyment
33:26
to be paid more because
33:28
even if you, I mean, I know it's different
33:30
if you're a brain surgeon, you know, you can't exactly
33:32
transfer those skills.
33:34
But just because you think
33:36
you're siloed because your skillset,
33:38
like maybe it's,
33:40
the conversation thing is important because
33:42
if you know what other people's jobs
33:44
are and what they do and what they,
33:46
I mean, so many of my friends, I didn't even understand
33:48
really what they did until I sat down and asked questions
33:50
and then you start realizing
33:52
how actually easy it could be
33:54
to jump into something slightly different
33:56
that's better paid, you know, just,
33:58
yeah, the research piece and the transparency
34:00
I think is important because a lot of people
34:02
feel stuck in,
34:04
if I can't get a pay rise here,
34:06
that's my only option, but it's just not the case.
34:08
Well, and a lot of employers
34:10
will condition you and gas like you
34:12
so that you feel like you can't go
34:14
anywhere else because they don't want you
34:16
to go anywhere else, right? I mean, I don't know if you found this
34:18
as a journalist, but in journalists
34:20
and there's a lot of like, you should be so lucky to have a job
34:22
and you're also lucky you're on TV and all this kind of stuff.
34:24
You need media jobs, they're like
34:26
because jobs in media are rare
34:28
so they kind of make you feel like
34:30
don't even think about it, like you're so lucky
34:32
you're so lucky to have a job.
34:34
People get working in the next day go back on your back.
34:36
It's ridiculous.
34:38
But so then you start to be conditioned
34:40
because it's what you see and it's what's normalised
34:42
and it's not until you step away and you go
34:44
these skills are super transferable
34:46
to entrepreneurship, to communications,
34:48
to project management, to all of these other things
34:50
to being achieved with staff
34:52
and because it's like you see yourself
34:54
from inside and other people see you from the outside.
34:58
So you know, one thing that I do every year
35:00
that your listeners may or may not be interested in
35:02
is I actually kind of send like a 360 survey
35:04
to about 20 people in my life.
35:06
Maybe you'll be on the list next time.
35:08
I'm not so much out.
35:10
But I basically like ask people questions.
35:12
I'm like, what do you think is my best quality?
35:14
If you were me, how would you be spending 90%
35:16
of my time?
35:18
If I passed away, what would you miss most about me?
35:20
Trying to get to the essence of like
35:22
what is my zone of genius?
35:24
And what makes me special and different and unique?
35:26
Because when you understand that,
35:28
that's what I should be doing more of.
35:30
Because no one can replicate that.
35:32
And I also ask constructive questions.
35:34
I'm like, you know, where can I improve?
35:36
Where can I be better?
35:38
Like, what do you think?
35:40
What habits do you think I should leave behind?
35:42
Like, trying to understand like, because obviously
35:44
hello, very not perfect over here.
35:46
Got a lot to improve.
35:48
You were the CEO of Petroker.
35:50
What would you focus on?
35:52
How do you think we could have a bigger impact for our community?
35:54
Because like, I have ideas.
35:56
But like, other people think so differently to me.
35:58
And I want to tap into their brain.
36:00
So that's something you can do from a career perspective too.
36:02
Because you might be like, well, I'm an accountant.
36:04
Or I work in sales.
36:06
Or I work in tourism.
36:08
How could I ever get into tech?
36:10
Let me tell you, you could.
36:12
Did you know that tech companies have events teams?
36:14
And tech companies have like executive assistants.
36:16
We do a lot of B2B work and workshops
36:18
and leadership programs for big corporates.
36:20
Some of my clients are, you know, they've got 20, 30,000 employees.
36:24
They have full-time executive coaches who are on staff.
36:26
They have people whose full-time job is to coach their executives
36:30
to be better public speakers.
36:32
Like, they get training every single week.
36:34
Because they're representing the brand.
36:36
Like, who even knew those jobs existed in big companies
36:38
with equity and shares and amazing compensation?
36:40
Like, there's jobs in like one of my friends he works in facilities
36:44
for meta.
36:46
And his whole job is to scope out new locations
36:48
where they could open new offices.
36:50
Like, I didn't even know that property,
36:52
like if you worked in property, you could actually work at a tech company.
36:54
Like, it's so random.
36:56
But there's all these jobs that you don't even know about
36:58
because we all live in our own little bubble.
37:00
It's almost like you're trying to get people
37:02
to find out what their value is.
37:04
And then it's like a questionnaire to find value.
37:06
And then from there, how can you then like milk your value
37:10
or like make money through your value?
37:12
And who wants to pay you for that value?
37:14
Like, what is your...
37:16
And this is the step of like, you know, know your value.
37:18
Track your contribution and find your cheerleaders.
37:20
And the first step is understanding your value.
37:22
You should do your own analysis.
37:24
I really recommend Gallup Strength Finders.
37:26
I love 16personalities.com.
37:28
It's free. All those things are really good.
37:30
Those assessments are great.
37:32
So you want to try to understand what that value is.
37:34
Then crowdsource around you.
37:36
And then tracking your contribution.
37:38
Which is a big part of why we built the pep talker app.
37:40
You're doing all of these meetings, all of these podcast recordings.
37:42
Probably in three months time when you're having a spiral.
37:46
I bet you're not going to remember any of this.
37:48
And how hard you worked.
37:50
So you've got to track that in the app or wherever you track it as you go
37:52
so that you can reflect.
37:54
Oh, that's genius.
37:56
Yes. When you're having those downward spirals reflect on,
37:58
I know I did make progress.
38:00
I do have wins. This is a bad day.
38:02
And tomorrow will be better.
38:04
I think that's such an important thing to remember.
38:06
Because there are times where you forget your value or what you're good at.
38:08
And if you're preparing for a pay rise the day before you do it.
38:10
Of course, you're never going to remember those things.
38:12
If you're taking notes and keeping track of it throughout the year.
38:16
Totally. Well, and that's kind of thing.
38:18
If you can put something in this app once a week,
38:20
you'll have 52 things at the end of the year.
38:22
Even if you only do it once a month, that's like 12 things.
38:24
And so it's one thing to walk into a conversation and ask for a pay increase
38:28
and be prepared and stuff.
38:30
And it's another thing to walk in with receipts.
38:32
And be like, hey, Joanne.
38:34
As you know, I've had a stellar year.
38:36
In January, I increased our retention by 11%.
38:40
In March, I closed that $2 million deal.
38:42
Your recall in May, I started the intern program.
38:44
And in September, I organized the team off-site.
38:48
And also, you know, brought in for new clients.
38:50
For that reason, I would love to discuss my compensation moving forward.
38:54
And so all of a sudden, that's a very different proposition from saying,
38:58
hey, Joanne, I've had such a good year.
39:00
So fun. Like, what are you thinking next year for my pay?
39:02
What about the people who don't think that they're adding a huge amount of value?
39:06
Well, this is where the third step of really, like,
39:08
surrounding yourself with cheerleaders is important, right?
39:10
Because if you think that you have no value, I reckon maybe you're just having a bad day.
39:14
Because if you have no value, you're probably going to get fired.
39:16
That's the reality.
39:18
As I said, like most companies, if you're working there,
39:20
you're bringing contribution to some extent.
39:22
It may or may not be monetary. It might be culture ad.
39:24
It might be what systems.
39:26
It might be internal institutional knowledge.
39:28
Whatever it is, you're adding value.
39:30
And normally, if you don't add value, you get fired.
39:32
So if you're employed and listening to this,
39:34
I'm going to say you probably add some value.
39:36
Try and track your successes yourself.
39:38
Ask trusted colleagues.
39:40
So just as I ask for feedback on my character and my behavior as a leader,
39:44
you can also ask your colleagues like who you love trust and respect.
39:48
We got an email from a 32-year-old listener.
39:50
She's working in sustainability in the UK.
39:52
And she's basically wanting career advice.
39:56
She's been in her office six months at a really massive company.
39:58
She's earning about £42,000 a year.
40:00
About £52,000 USD.
40:02
She feels like behind financially,
40:04
she's done like a chemical engineering,
40:06
like master's degree.
40:08
She's got six years of experience.
40:10
She's obviously super like.
40:12
Yeah.
40:14
Basically, she's like,
40:16
she's accidentally discovered internal salary banding,
40:18
which is like basically saying that.
40:20
Yeah.
40:22
So she was initially considered for a pay rise at a higher range,
40:24
but they offered her a lot of money.
40:26
She feels like she's got limited progression,
40:28
like opportunities in her current role,
40:30
a toxic work culture contributing to burnout.
40:32
She's torn between like pushing for the pay rise or planning to leave
40:36
in the next year or two.
40:38
She's frustrated with like the lack of transparency in the job.
40:42
Like they don't have like key benefits like parental leave
40:44
and career development and stuff,
40:46
which so she feels like she can't really plan for her future.
40:48
Yeah, okay.
40:50
She's basically looking for a job.
40:52
So she feels like she can't really plan for her future.
40:54
Yeah, okay.
40:56
She's basically looking for advice or guidance on like what salary
40:58
she should aim for, how she should advocate for that pay rise.
41:00
Yeah.
41:02
Immediately, but also like whether or not
41:04
she should just be looking for a new role.
41:06
So two things on that.
41:08
I think she knows the answer to this question,
41:10
because she used the word toxic work culture.
41:12
And if you think about like health as wealth,
41:14
if you don't have your health, you really have nothing.
41:16
So if you're in a toxic workplace,
41:18
I would always encourage people to find a plan B
41:20
in terms she could have a con candid conversation with them
41:22
and say, hey, listen, this is what I've just got,
41:24
because it's actually a legal as well potentially.
41:26
If she's being paid less,
41:28
if there's other folks of a different gender
41:30
who are getting paid more,
41:32
there's possible that she may actually have a legal case
41:34
because she may or may not want to explore that.
41:36
But yeah, if it's a toxic workplace,
41:38
and if it's not feeding your soul in some way,
41:40
then I would always say start looking for something else.
41:42
You can stay there while you start job hunting
41:44
and building a network to help you get out.
41:46
The other question I know in the prep we were talking about,
41:48
is trying to understand how do you find out about
41:50
parental leave benefits and career benefits
41:52
without making it obvious that you want to have a kid really soon.
41:54
I always say to people,
41:56
during the hiring process,
41:58
I would love to see the contract,
42:00
and would you mind sending me a copy of the employer handbook
42:02
so I can get a real sense of the culture before I start?
42:04
Because that way, you're basically asking to see
42:06
all the extended benefits without asking specifically
42:08
for maternity leave.
42:10
Very good answer.
42:12
I'm really sorry. I think we're going to have to wrap this up
42:14
just because I'm getting kicked out of this room.
42:16
We'll do this again.
42:18
But do you know what I was thinking?
42:20
Can we just quickly please plug pep talk her?
42:22
Anything and everything that people can find.
42:24
Well, we're on Instagram, pep talk her.
42:26
I'm on LinkedIn, Maggie Palmer,
42:28
so don't be strange to say hi.
42:30
Tell me you love the podcast because I love it too.
42:32
And then if you want more support,
42:34
we've got a great freebiepeptalker.com forward slash pay me more.
42:36
And it's like a workbook that you can just like work through on your own.
42:38
And obviously there's the pep talker app to help you track all your wins.
42:40
Think period tracker,
42:42
but it tracks your career instead of your cycle.
42:44
It's a good tagline.
42:46
Yeah. Yeah. Love it.
42:48
Great branding.
42:50
Thank you so much, Maggie.
42:52
Thanks.
42:54
Let's get a drink.
42:56
It's the lady kicking our sellers for me.
42:58
Let's go get cocktails.
43:00
Thank you so much for listening to Raisin the Curve.
43:02
These conversations are designed to teach you everything you need to know
43:04
to be better with your money,
43:06
saving, investing, talking with your friends about your salaries
43:08
or that stuff.
43:10
And if you like what you heard,
43:12
really make our week a month, they're here.
43:14
Yeah. Yeah. So please do it.
43:16
Okay. Love you. Bye.
43:18
Okay, quickly the Curve was created to empower and educate you about investing,
43:22
but we are not financial advisors.
43:24
Our platform exists for educational purposes only,
43:26
and it doesn't provide personalized investing advice for your individual needs
43:30
and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.
43:34
And always remember to do your own research before making any investment or financial decision.
43:38
We're here for any knowledge and support you need,
43:40
but the final call is always yours.
43:42
And thanks for being here.
43:44
You got this. Yeah. We know you got this.