Latest / Legally Brunette / Killer Thriller Docu: You commit a crime and get caught 30 years later.

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Killer Thriller Docu: You commit a crime and get caught 30 years later. · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy roboc and TJ.
0:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hi,
0:14
Speaker 2: you guys, So today on Killer Thriller Docu Edition, we
0:18
Speaker 2: are diving into the case behind Baby Dough. This one
0:23
Speaker 2: is This one hit me different, you guys, and for
0:26
Speaker 2: those of you that have seen it, I'm so interested
0:29
Speaker 2: in how you felt about it. So thirty years ago,
0:32
Speaker 2: Gail Ritchie, a young woman from a conservative Christian community
0:35
Speaker 2: in rural Ohio, gave birth alone and left her newborn
0:39
Speaker 2: in the woods. Now a devoted mother of three, her
0:42
Speaker 2: quiet suburban life shatters when DNA evidence links her to
0:46
Speaker 2: the infamous cold case of Goga's child. I'm sorry because
0:50
Speaker 2: it's the name of the town, you guys. They sort
0:52
Speaker 2: of adopted the baby, and I'm probably mispronouncing the town.
0:55
Speaker 2: I don't remember exactly how it's pronounced anyway. Arrested for
0:57
Speaker 2: murder and vilified in the media, authorities did miss her
1:00
Speaker 2: claim that the baby was still born. Facing a possible
1:03
Speaker 2: life sentence, Gale and her family must confront religious stigma,
1:06
Speaker 2: community judgment, and long buried shame in the fight for
1:09
Speaker 2: her freedom. And I really if you guys would comment
1:14
Speaker 2: and write in and I'm dying to know how you
1:18
Speaker 2: all feel after watching this, because this one in particular,
1:22
Speaker 2: you know a lot of these, we watch them and
1:25
Speaker 2: then we are enraged, or then we are afraid, or
1:28
Speaker 2: we are dumbfounded and angry. The only emotion I had
1:33
Speaker 2: after watching this crime documentary was just pure sadness. So anyway,
1:39
Speaker 2: we are going to bring in Lucky enough, we have
1:41
Speaker 2: the director here. Her name is Jessica Earnshaw, and we're
1:45
Speaker 2: going to bring her in and ask her some serious questions.
1:48
Speaker 2: All right, let's bring in Jessica.
1:50
Speaker 3: Hi, how are you well?
1:52
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us. Of course, I
1:56
Speaker 2: have to first say that you know, this is what
2:00
Speaker 2: we do, we do true crime, and I want to say,
2:04
Speaker 2: outside of this particular documentary, I'm left feeling angry, sickened, dumbfounded, afraid.
2:19
Speaker 2: I think this is I think this is the first time,
2:22
Speaker 2: maybe not the first, but it stands out to me
2:24
Speaker 2: that I just feel so sad, Like this left me
2:29
Speaker 2: so sad. And so that's that's sort of the first
2:34
Speaker 2: thing I wanted to say. And it was really really
2:35
Speaker 2: it is really really powerful. So congratulations to you. I
2:39
Speaker 2: know you've been working on it a long time.
2:42
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I started in twenty twenty, so, yeah, it's
2:46
Speaker 1: been like five years because.
2:47
Speaker 2: I have also, I don't think seen a documentary where
2:51
Speaker 2: it's so documented. I mean, you guys got and I'm
2:56
Speaker 2: wondering how you did do that. I mean you really
2:59
Speaker 2: I feel like the story from for the past however
3:03
Speaker 2: many years, you've got all of it, you know, the
3:07
Speaker 2: personal pieces of it. I feel like I, I don't know,
3:12
Speaker 2: kind of went through it with Gail and the richies
3:14
Speaker 2: and the attorneys, and you just did you just set
3:18
Speaker 2: up cameras there for the past however many years.
3:21
Speaker 1: Well, I first met Gail and Ritchie in the summer
3:23
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one. I'd actually started the film on
3:26
Speaker 1: Emily Weaver and film with her family for a year, okay,
3:30
Speaker 1: but when I met Gailan and Mark, Yeah, I come
3:34
Speaker 1: into it asking for pretty full access, like I was
3:37
Speaker 1: looking to follow someone, and I was just I was
3:40
Speaker 1: looking for our case next to Emily's, because I wanted
3:43
Speaker 1: to kind of show the whole process of going through
3:45
Speaker 1: a trial. So I explained to them that I was
3:48
Speaker 1: looking kind of for a collaboration in the sense that
3:50
Speaker 1: they allow me into everything, the good, the bad, the sad, everything,
3:54
Speaker 1: and I was also asking the same from the attorneys.
3:57
Speaker 3: So that's kind of how it started.
4:00
Speaker 1: And at that point she was probably about ten months
4:03
Speaker 1: away from the trial. And I, I mean, I did
4:08
Speaker 1: the same on my film just sent to my first film,
4:11
Speaker 1: Just Senta, I also filmed that much like I really
4:14
Speaker 1: like to be there for everything and watch the story
4:17
Speaker 1: as it unfolds. So with Gail and Mark, I was
4:21
Speaker 1: there like every day. And also part of that is
4:24
Speaker 1: so I can kind of I can be invisible and
4:26
Speaker 1: be part of the fabric of their lives. Yeah, so
4:29
Speaker 1: I'm not making I'm not just coming in when I
4:32
Speaker 1: know or think something's going to happen. I'm there for
4:35
Speaker 1: all the kind of more mundane moments as well.
4:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, listen, I felt like I was
4:40
Speaker 2: there so clearly you did an unbelievable job and it
4:45
Speaker 2: was just so heartbreaking to be there. I wonder if
4:48
Speaker 2: Gale and Mark and their attorneys thought that if this,
4:51
Speaker 2: if it didn't go the way that they wanted to it,
4:54
Speaker 2: would they would have all of this, all of this
4:56
Speaker 2: documentation and insight into their side. I mean, was that
5:01
Speaker 2: part of the reason they said yes to you?
5:04
Speaker 3: I think for the.
5:05
Speaker 1: Richies most likely because I mean when I first went
5:09
Speaker 1: in and met with them at their attorney's office, Gail
5:12
Speaker 1: really didn't have any intention to allow me to film like,
5:15
Speaker 1: I mean, she didn't she wasn't interested that interested. She
5:18
Speaker 1: had really been torn apart by the media. I mean,
5:23
Speaker 1: Gioga's child had been followed for twenty seven years and
5:26
Speaker 1: then actually on the anniversary every year, they did a
5:29
Speaker 1: story on it.
5:30
Speaker 3: Gail wasn't aware.
5:31
Speaker 1: Of any of those stories because she just doesn't watch
5:33
Speaker 1: the news like she's a Hallmark movie watcher. Yeah, but
5:37
Speaker 1: when when all this happened, she really like it blew
5:40
Speaker 1: up and it was a pretty like I mean they
5:44
Speaker 1: were outside her house all the time, the press like
5:46
Speaker 1: it was pretty awful for her.
5:49
Speaker 3: And so I think she agreed to.
5:51
Speaker 1: Do it, ultimately do this film because when I told
5:55
Speaker 1: her about Emily, and I'd spent a lot of time
5:57
Speaker 1: with Emily and her family, I to Gail that I
6:00
Speaker 1: was really interested in bringing awareness to pregnancy denial in
6:04
Speaker 1: these cases from more of an understanding of how this happens.
6:08
Speaker 1: And she agreed to do it because she felt like
6:10
Speaker 1: her story could help Emily, because Emily had a life
6:13
Speaker 1: without a parole sentence and right right, so and so
6:19
Speaker 1: for a girl, it was to help Emily more so
6:22
Speaker 1: than herself. And I think with Mark and Stephen, I
6:25
Speaker 1: think they both felt that having an in depth story
6:28
Speaker 1: on her would it hurt at all. I think it
6:30
Speaker 1: would be more beneficial so people could understand their sur.
6:33
Speaker 2: Right right with Emily. Please remind me there were several
6:37
Speaker 2: women that you showcased in the film who had experienced
6:43
Speaker 2: and had gone through this in terms of having a baby.
6:46
Speaker 2: And I don't what word can we use. It doesn't
6:48
Speaker 2: sound so awful discarding or were separating from but any
6:53
Speaker 2: whatever it is, but it can't help but put it
6:57
Speaker 2: that way after watching the film anyway, So was Emily
7:01
Speaker 2: the one where they wouldn't let any kind of doctor
7:05
Speaker 2: slash psychiatrists specialist into the courtroom? Am I remembering? I mean,
7:10
Speaker 2: I know they didn't also but with Gail, But I'm
7:13
Speaker 2: just saying, was that Emily? Was that the one that
7:15
Speaker 2: she just got?
7:17
Speaker 3: Yeah?
7:17
Speaker 1: So Emily ten years ago now, because she was sentenced
7:20
Speaker 1: ten years ago, they didn't bring a psychologist into the courtroom.
7:24
Speaker 1: And I don't even think they mentioned pregnancy denial inta
7:29
Speaker 1: saying so she received life with Ouveral And the reason
7:33
Speaker 1: you see the psychology brought into the courtroom in the
7:36
Speaker 1: film is because they appealed her sentence to the Ohio
7:41
Speaker 1: Supreme Court on the fact.
7:42
Speaker 2: Right right right, which is biased right.
7:45
Speaker 1: And it was unfair that the psychology wasn't in, so
7:48
Speaker 1: they were able to bring it in later.
7:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm curious in terms of so you had had
7:54
Speaker 2: this experience with Emily and approached Gale, did you have
7:57
Speaker 2: already a feeling about this case, about her innocence or
8:01
Speaker 2: her guilt, or you know, did you go into it
8:07
Speaker 2: wanting to help exonerate her?
8:10
Speaker 1: Not really, I mean I went into it. I mean
8:13
Speaker 1: I definitely went into it with an open mind. I
8:15
Speaker 1: do feel like what I try to do on all
8:18
Speaker 1: my films is like I do a ton of research,
8:21
Speaker 1: but then I try to walk in and like forget
8:23
Speaker 1: it all and then let it like it kind of
8:25
Speaker 1: wash over me the story. I have to say, though,
8:28
Speaker 1: when I did meet Gail, and I was looking for
8:30
Speaker 1: a story and it didn't have to be Gail's, so
8:32
Speaker 1: they said no to me, I was going to keep
8:34
Speaker 1: going to find someone else because there were so many
8:37
Speaker 1: and I was tracking in the news. I was looking
8:40
Speaker 1: for a woman that I in first reaction, first instinct,
8:44
Speaker 1: I liked and like felt something. For my first impression
8:49
Speaker 1: on Gail was that she was holding a ton like
8:52
Speaker 1: she didn't have the words to explain her experience so
8:54
Speaker 1: much as like I could feel it on her me too,
8:57
Speaker 1: the weight of the world, like the weight of and
9:00
Speaker 1: not just the world, but her family, just what it
9:02
Speaker 1: had happened. So I think it was a journey in
9:05
Speaker 1: a similar way for the audience I think going through it.
9:09
Speaker 1: I think there's periods of time from what I've heard
9:11
Speaker 1: from people who watched, you know, you kind of go
9:13
Speaker 1: back and forth and trying to understand Gail. And that
9:16
Speaker 1: was my experience at the beginning. I didn't do an
9:20
Speaker 1: interview with her until after a number of trial preps
9:24
Speaker 1: had happened, and so basically I just for your audience,
9:28
Speaker 1: Like I was following her trial preps with her attorneys
9:31
Speaker 1: where they would kind of prepare for trial and ask
9:33
Speaker 1: her a bunch of questions. And I found that in
9:36
Speaker 1: the trial preps she had a really difficult time remembering
9:39
Speaker 1: how she felt about around the pregnancy and and even.
9:43
Speaker 4: Like remembering it right, she although the details of it,
9:46
Speaker 4: I felt like she had pretty good like details as
9:49
Speaker 4: far as he was in the house and all this stuff,
9:51
Speaker 4: but as far as how she felt, that was just
9:53
Speaker 4: not there.
9:54
Speaker 3: And so when I had an interview with her later,
9:58
Speaker 3: I really had.
9:59
Speaker 1: A differ front perspective on her because I just felt
10:03
Speaker 1: like Gail doesn't know how to ask for help like
10:05
Speaker 1: she does she hates conflict, but she also did not
10:08
Speaker 1: know how to ask for help for herself. And when
10:12
Speaker 1: she takes the baby basically out to the woods, and
10:15
Speaker 1: this is very typical of these girls, Like across the board,
10:19
Speaker 1: the baby is perceived as dead, and that could be
10:23
Speaker 1: the case. I actually was talking to a doctor the
10:25
Speaker 1: other day that told me that with no prenatal care,
10:28
Speaker 1: you're three times more likely to have low birth weight
10:31
Speaker 1: and you're five times more likely to die than a
10:33
Speaker 1: mother who does have prenatal care.
10:35
Speaker 2: Wow.
10:35
Speaker 1: So these women are often putting babies in garbage bags
10:38
Speaker 1: and putting them in the trash cans or whatever. And
10:42
Speaker 1: so in Gail's case, she left the baby in the
10:44
Speaker 1: snow in the woods, and she perceived that baby is
10:47
Speaker 1: not alive, but she didn't bury the baby like I think.
10:54
Speaker 1: In some ways, I got the impression that Gail was
10:56
Speaker 1: hoping that someone would find that baby, not because she
10:59
Speaker 1: bought the baby was alive, but thought found the baby,
11:02
Speaker 1: link it to her and help her because she, really,
11:04
Speaker 1: like I think, did not know how to deal with this.
11:07
Speaker 2: Wow, it's funny. I wonder if I'm going to be
11:11
Speaker 2: in the majority or not so in terms of our listeners,
11:14
Speaker 2: if they're going to feel the way I do. And
11:18
Speaker 2: you know, you hear about mothers killing their babies and
11:21
Speaker 2: automatically you're at least my first thought is monster. You
11:25
Speaker 2: know what kind of monster could kill their child? And
11:29
Speaker 2: this is I don't feel like she killed her child,
11:33
Speaker 2: and I don't feel like she's a monster. I thought
11:34
Speaker 2: that was really touching when the security guard from the
11:40
Speaker 2: prison said to her, I've met a lot of monsters.
11:42
Speaker 2: You are not a monster. And from the beginning, like you.
11:47
Speaker 2: I liked her almost immediately or immediately, and not only that.
11:52
Speaker 2: I love her husband and her children, and her gorgeous
11:56
Speaker 2: grandchild and all of the friends from church who love
12:02
Speaker 2: her so and so I don't think I had a
12:06
Speaker 2: moment in the film's entirety where I was like, how
12:12
Speaker 2: could you? And I don't know, I mean, is that me?
12:15
Speaker 2: I wonder if our listeners are going to be like, what, Jennifer,
12:16
Speaker 2: what are you talking about? Have you had in terms
12:19
Speaker 2: of the people that you worked with on this, I
12:20
Speaker 2: don't know the crew and the people who know about
12:23
Speaker 2: it is what do you find that there is a
12:27
Speaker 2: case more that people feel badly for her? Or are
12:30
Speaker 2: they disgusted and angry with her?
12:32
Speaker 3: No, definitely not discussed and angry.
12:34
Speaker 1: I think people do you really feel for Gail. I've
12:37
Speaker 1: had a number of people feel like they see their
12:39
Speaker 1: own mothers in her and not really tough for certain
12:43
Speaker 1: women to watch. I think Gail is a type of
12:46
Speaker 1: person who's constantly thinking of others, and I think that's
12:50
Speaker 1: the line, Like you can see that this is a
12:52
Speaker 1: woman who's now in her fifties. She was twenty one
12:54
Speaker 1: at the time. But the thing that's never left Gail
12:57
Speaker 1: is her ability to always put herself last.
13:01
Speaker 3: She always puts people first before her.
13:03
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, I wasn't sure how maybe
13:07
Speaker 1: more of a Christian audience would react to her because
13:11
Speaker 1: of the religious components in the film, but we did.
13:14
Speaker 3: We did share.
13:15
Speaker 1: We went down to Birmingham last summer and we played
13:18
Speaker 1: Sidewalk Film Festival, and they put us in a church
13:21
Speaker 1: like a Unitarian church, and Pastor Royce and Patty came
13:26
Speaker 1: down because they now really they now live nearby. And
13:30
Speaker 1: it was an incredible experience watching with people there, because
13:35
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the audience had told told
13:37
Speaker 1: me that they could completely understand why Gail buried it,
13:41
Speaker 1: that she didn't have any choice in their mind. I mean,
13:44
Speaker 1: she definitely couldn't have gotten an abortion. That would be
13:47
Speaker 1: clearly murder for them in their minds, and they where
13:53
Speaker 1: would she go? She grew up in that in that area,
13:56
Speaker 1: she couldn't tell anybody without the community, like, you know,
13:59
Speaker 1: being raged over this.
14:01
Speaker 2: She talked about I don't know if it was her
14:02
Speaker 2: that spoke of it, the other person that was in
14:06
Speaker 2: her youth group, the other young girl who got pregnant,
14:10
Speaker 2: and how the pastor made her confess it to the
14:13
Speaker 2: entire congregation and Gail witnessing that right and how traumatic
14:20
Speaker 2: that must have felt. And you know, I don't know
14:23
Speaker 2: how much of that was at play in terms of
14:24
Speaker 2: her denial, but I thought it was just so horrifying
14:31
Speaker 2: to even hear the story of that, right.
14:34
Speaker 1: I'm sure that was on her mind because she actually
14:36
Speaker 1: told me that story like three different I mean, you
14:38
Speaker 1: interviewed somebody so long they might forget what they've told
14:40
Speaker 1: you already. And she told me that story like three
14:42
Speaker 1: or four times.
14:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's I'm sure that that was part
14:47
Speaker 2: of it. And then the way Mark wanted to take
14:50
Speaker 2: responsibility and she didn't want to place any of it
14:53
Speaker 2: on him, and he didn't want to place any of
14:55
Speaker 2: it on her. So like the love story you know
14:59
Speaker 2: within the film, at least that's how it felt for me,
15:02
Speaker 2: was so beautiful, the way that these two loved each
15:05
Speaker 2: other and how it was. He felt like it was
15:07
Speaker 2: his fault because he didn't ask her to marry him earlier.
15:10
Speaker 2: And she says, none of this is on Mark, and
15:14
Speaker 2: you know, heartbreaking really, but she has about her and
15:18
Speaker 2: it feels to me like an innocence and a kindness.
15:23
Speaker 2: And that's why I think it was just it felt
15:25
Speaker 2: to me like throughout the process of the trial again,
15:30
Speaker 2: like I don't know if I'm am I is this
15:32
Speaker 2: just me or is this the majority? I feel like
15:33
Speaker 2: she felt felt like a victim. She like she really
15:36
Speaker 2: did feel like a victim to me, and especially learning
15:39
Speaker 2: what I did about pregnancy denial, you know, throughout the film.
15:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think you're alone in that, because you know, obviously,
15:48
Speaker 1: me and my team, especially me and my editor, like
15:51
Speaker 1: editing the film, I mean, we felt a certain way
15:53
Speaker 1: about her in the process of making it.
16:09
Speaker 2: Did you ever feel a different way? Did you ever
16:11
Speaker 2: feel like she's crazy or she's culpable? I mean anything?
16:16
Speaker 3: No, not really, I mean not always.
16:19
Speaker 2: Just felt for her.
16:20
Speaker 1: I felt for her because I also completely understand how
16:23
Speaker 1: this could have happened in Jesse Yale. I think the
16:26
Speaker 1: more I got to know her, the more I realized
16:28
Speaker 1: that this is like, this was so.
16:31
Speaker 3: It was. She was just like prime for this to happen,
16:34
Speaker 3: you know.
16:34
Speaker 1: I mean I think also I thought a lot about
16:37
Speaker 1: the complicity in our society over things like this happening.
16:40
Speaker 1: Like to me, the idem this is part of the
16:43
Speaker 1: reason I wanted to make the film to begin with,
16:45
Speaker 1: is that, like you know, this often happens between the
16:48
Speaker 1: ages of sixteen and twenty one.
16:50
Speaker 3: Somewhere in there, she.
16:51
Speaker 2: Was twenty one. How old was she she was?
16:54
Speaker 3: I think twenty one?
16:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, So like when I think of myself at that
16:58
Speaker 1: age or even younger, like and not being able to
17:01
Speaker 1: tell anybody that I'm pregnant and giving birth like in
17:05
Speaker 1: a toilet, and oftentimes these are happening in your parents' homes.
17:09
Speaker 3: Like to me, that's a tragedy.
17:11
Speaker 1: And you know, you're really young at twenty one, you know,
17:14
Speaker 1: and I think you're very even maybe more naive or
17:17
Speaker 1: maybe more young when you're a girl like Gail who
17:20
Speaker 1: is so like I mean, she's living in pretty a
17:25
Speaker 1: pretty rural area, but also like just shy, sickx to herself,
17:29
Speaker 1: like I mean, I think, I don't know, I just
17:32
Speaker 1: I see it.
17:33
Speaker 3: And then that scene in the film that I think is.
17:35
Speaker 1: So important where they see a photograph of Gail Mark
17:39
Speaker 1: and her husband and her mother and they they're like, hey,
17:43
Speaker 1: she looks a little bit pregnant here.
17:45
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. That was beautifully The way that youxtaposed
17:49
Speaker 2: the picture of the one angle against the other angler
17:52
Speaker 2: they did or you did, that was so freaky, and
17:57
Speaker 2: I felt like insightful, you know, I didn't connect with
18:00
Speaker 2: her mother, to be honest with you, I didn't feel
18:03
Speaker 2: And I don't know if that has to do with
18:05
Speaker 2: me the mother her personality. Maybe I don't know what
18:09
Speaker 2: kind of mother she really was. I'm sure she was
18:11
Speaker 2: a good and a loving one. But for me as
18:14
Speaker 2: a viewer, I did not connect with that woman and
18:17
Speaker 2: couldn't feel like her pain. You know, I felt Gail's
18:20
Speaker 2: kids pain so acutely, and I just didn't feel that
18:24
Speaker 2: from the mother, which I'm sure is not the case.
18:26
Speaker 2: So I'll say that. But it was interesting watching because
18:29
Speaker 2: I wanted to say how, I mean, Mark didn't know either,
18:32
Speaker 2: How did you not know? And seeing the two different
18:37
Speaker 2: angles was so and I know that this happens right there.
18:40
Speaker 2: I had There was a young girl years back. I'm
18:45
Speaker 2: in Northern Jersey, one of the towns here. She had
18:47
Speaker 2: a baby in a toilet she I guess the boyfriend
18:51
Speaker 2: knew about it too, and I don't remember. I think
18:54
Speaker 2: it was still born and they put it into a dumbster.
18:57
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm remember this completely clearly right,
19:00
Speaker 2: but without any context, right, And it was like, where
19:05
Speaker 2: was the mother? How could you? How could this happen?
19:08
Speaker 2: What do you mean you didn't know you were pregnant?
19:09
Speaker 2: But I thought it was really interesting when the psychiatrist
19:12
Speaker 2: talked about how the baby if it's not acknowledged, we'll
19:16
Speaker 2: go into a vertical position in the embryos. As opposed
19:21
Speaker 2: to a horizontal like I don't even know that. All
19:24
Speaker 2: of this stuff was such crazy news to me, you know,
19:28
Speaker 2: and gave me so much more insight, And I felt
19:32
Speaker 2: so much sympathy towards Gail for all of this, you know,
19:35
Speaker 2: even you know, the physicality of the whole thing, the
19:39
Speaker 2: fact that that can happen is crazy. And then maybe
19:43
Speaker 2: that's why the mother didn't notice. I don't know. I
19:44
Speaker 2: think if my daughter was pregnant, I don't imagine a
19:48
Speaker 2: scenario where I wouldn't notice. But we're not the same.
19:50
Speaker 2: I don't have you know, I don't know. The way
19:51
Speaker 2: that they grew up in their relationship just seems so surreal, right,
19:55
Speaker 2: But markdin neither.
19:57
Speaker 1: M But then you look at the photo and you
19:59
Speaker 1: do see that, Okay, maybe she was a little bit noticeable,
20:02
Speaker 1: you know, and I think not.
20:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, So so to.
20:05
Speaker 1: My point it being that if the girl doesn't notice,
20:08
Speaker 1: but yet nobody around her notices either, and nobody around
20:11
Speaker 1: her maybe wants.
20:12
Speaker 3: To knowledge it, right, you know, that she's pregnant, then.
20:15
Speaker 1: That is creating a situation where the girl might not
20:18
Speaker 1: want to share, you know, Like I think there's like
20:21
Speaker 1: a lot of I think stigma and shame are just.
20:23
Speaker 3: Very very strong.
20:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I also think the body in the mind
20:27
Speaker 1: are really incredible.
20:29
Speaker 3: That you know, because I have seen Gail.
20:31
Speaker 1: Pregnant, given she was pregnant with twins, so she was
20:34
Speaker 1: really big at the time, but I've seen a picture
20:36
Speaker 1: of pregnant. There was no mistaking Gaile pregnant, like she
20:38
Speaker 1: was huge, you know. And I think and so even
20:42
Speaker 1: would she have been more pregnant looking if if she
20:45
Speaker 1: wasn't in denial of her pregnancy, because I think that's
20:47
Speaker 1: really fascinating here that so many of these girls aren't
20:50
Speaker 1: really showing, and so that's kind of a loop happening
20:54
Speaker 1: where they're where it's just kind of compounding the idea
20:58
Speaker 1: that they're not pregnant because they're not having the normal
21:01
Speaker 1: pregnancy signs.
21:03
Speaker 2: And the baby doesn't move if there's pregnancy denial.
21:05
Speaker 3: A lot of times the one doctor was.
21:07
Speaker 2: Saying, right, the baby doesn't kick, and I it is,
21:12
Speaker 2: it's really it's it's crazy, and I am infuriated. I
21:17
Speaker 2: felt infuriated that they wouldn't let the experts in at
21:21
Speaker 2: the trial and and why why not? Do you know?
21:26
Speaker 2: Why not? Why not?
21:28
Speaker 3: Well, it's because in Ohio. They have this rule against it.
21:31
Speaker 3: It's like diminished capacity.
21:33
Speaker 2: Oh right, I think you talked about that a little bit,
21:35
Speaker 2: or the lawyers did.
21:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, So diminish capacity is basically like, for example, if
21:39
Speaker 1: you were like driving a car drunk and you hit
21:42
Speaker 1: and killed somebody, you can't blame the fact that you
21:44
Speaker 1: are drinking and weren't didn't have the wherewithal the drive
21:49
Speaker 1: a car. You can't blame the drinking on that because
21:50
Speaker 1: you made a choice to drink, and so the judges
21:55
Speaker 1: have the discretion.
21:56
Speaker 2: Different, right, Drinking is a different thing than having a
22:00
Speaker 2: psychological condition and illness.
22:03
Speaker 3: That was their argument.
22:04
Speaker 1: I mean, they felt that it was under diminished capacity
22:07
Speaker 1: that they could keep it out. But they were trying to,
22:11
Speaker 1: as Stephen says, they were trying to explain the behavior,
22:14
Speaker 1: like how could do you explain Gail's behavior. There's this
22:17
Speaker 1: thing called pregnancy denial, and that wasn't allowed into the
22:21
Speaker 1: courtroom because they felt like it was an excuse when
22:23
Speaker 1: it was really just a way to explain. And also too,
22:26
Speaker 1: I don't think you choose to have pregnancy denial, I mean.
22:30
Speaker 2: And how do you refuse experts, doctors? I don't know,
22:34
Speaker 2: you know, if you spoke about or it was spoken of.
22:37
Speaker 2: It was a primarily male jury in a primarily conservative district,
22:45
Speaker 2: and I don't know how religious the district is, but
22:49
Speaker 2: I don't know how that influences some of these decisions.
22:53
Speaker 2: To me, I was dumbfounded that they said no to
22:58
Speaker 2: allowing experts to talk about her state of mind. That
23:03
Speaker 2: was one of the many things, you know. And then
23:07
Speaker 2: I don't know if you do this on purpose, but
23:09
Speaker 2: primarily there were men talking about how could a mother
23:13
Speaker 2: do this? Not that it's it's okay, you know, it's
23:16
Speaker 2: okay for a man to wonder those things, and it's
23:18
Speaker 2: okay for a man to have feelings about these things.
23:23
Speaker 2: It's just that I thought it was maybe even on purpose,
23:26
Speaker 2: that there was almost primarily a male jury making these
23:30
Speaker 2: decisions and and you know, questioning her motives. And I'm
23:34
Speaker 2: not saying that women can't do terrible things, but just
23:39
Speaker 2: them talking about, you know, how could you have something
23:41
Speaker 2: in your body or some grows somebody And I mean,
23:45
Speaker 2: I guess you'll never know, but you know, so, but
23:49
Speaker 2: I thought that was interesting. There were so there was
23:52
Speaker 2: so many different times, you know that I was prompted
23:55
Speaker 2: to see, like this big picture that was really scary
24:00
Speaker 2: in terms of our society and judgment and a lack
24:05
Speaker 2: of compassion and understanding. And I again, I'm sure there
24:09
Speaker 2: are people that would or do completely disagree with me
24:12
Speaker 2: when the film comes out, will disagree. But and I
24:16
Speaker 2: don't know if I always would have felt like this,
24:18
Speaker 2: but the story that you told and letting us get
24:22
Speaker 2: to know her in this way, for me, there was
24:24
Speaker 2: no question but that I felt sick for her. I
24:28
Speaker 2: am sick that she's in jail. I am hearing even
24:32
Speaker 2: when her daughter answers the phone and tells her that
24:36
Speaker 2: she's pregnant, you know, and she, like you said, she
24:40
Speaker 2: it was always everybody before her. There was no complaining.
24:43
Speaker 2: There was just don't be in the courtroom, even if
24:46
Speaker 2: it would have helped me. I don't know daughter should ever,
24:49
Speaker 2: you know, see her mama spoken about in that way,
24:53
Speaker 2: and then the sun and the way that they loved her,
24:58
Speaker 2: It just none of it adds up. With the part
25:00
Speaker 2: for me that really doesn't add up is I feel
25:04
Speaker 2: like the way that she was just screwed in court
25:08
Speaker 2: that what was the most frustrating part for you. I'm
25:10
Speaker 2: sorry because I'm giving you all my feelings. I really
25:12
Speaker 2: want to interview you, but I hope you know I'm
25:14
Speaker 2: very passionate about this, which is a compliment to you.
25:17
Speaker 1: Oh no, thank you, And I mean I appreciate your
25:21
Speaker 1: thoughts on it because I mean that's what I wanted
25:24
Speaker 1: the film to do, is the great conversation, and I
25:26
Speaker 1: do feel like people need to talk it.
25:27
Speaker 3: Out after her.
25:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean for me, it's really not having
25:30
Speaker 1: this psychology in the room, because.
25:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I mean.
25:34
Speaker 3: Jury can rule.
25:35
Speaker 1: However they want, obviously, but for them not to have
25:39
Speaker 1: all the information and not being such a crucial part
25:42
Speaker 1: of the story.
25:43
Speaker 2: Here, right, that was the injustice for me.
25:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, it just it didn't feel fair.
25:48
Speaker 1: And you see kind of how a judge would And
25:51
Speaker 1: again the judge in Emily's case is a woman judge,
25:55
Speaker 1: and she hears the psychology and she says it perfectly,
25:59
Speaker 1: like we want things to.
26:00
Speaker 3: Be clear and better or whatever, you know, But that's
26:06
Speaker 3: not how life is.
26:07
Speaker 2: It's not black and white. When they said she was
26:25
Speaker 2: not guilty of I want to say it was aggravated murder?
26:28
Speaker 2: Was that the first what changed? So how did the
26:30
Speaker 2: sentence change from if she was not guilty for aggravated
26:34
Speaker 2: as opposed to guilty for murder. Would she had gotten
26:36
Speaker 2: how much worse could it have been?
26:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, So aggravated is basically anywhere from twenty to life
26:42
Speaker 1: without and there's a range you can get twenty twenty five.
26:46
Speaker 1: I think it's thirty and then life without. That's what
26:49
Speaker 1: Emily was charged with. Actually, Emily, just to tell you
26:52
Speaker 1: something crazy and this is yes, So Emily in her
26:56
Speaker 1: trial she was charged with aggravated and murder. She wasn't
27:01
Speaker 1: charged with. She had and they offered her to deal,
27:04
Speaker 1: and the deal was take the murder charge. So Emily
27:07
Speaker 1: was never offered a manslaughter deal, which is what Gail
27:11
Speaker 1: was offered manslaughter, so that was no time to eleven years.
27:14
Speaker 1: But Emily was offered murder, and if she didn't take murder,
27:19
Speaker 1: then both murder and manslaughter or aggravated murder would be
27:23
Speaker 1: on the table. But aggravated murder is probably due to
27:26
Speaker 1: the age of the victim being under the age of twelve,
27:32
Speaker 1: you'd automatically get an aggravated murder charge for that.
27:35
Speaker 3: Okay, but it could be much worse.
27:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, she got fifteen to life, but it could have
27:40
Speaker 1: been twenty all the way through to life without Yeah,
27:44
Speaker 1: and the prosecute on Emily's case told me that they
27:47
Speaker 1: thought that the jury would have given her the death
27:50
Speaker 1: penalty if it was on the table. That's how much
27:53
Speaker 1: they thought they hated her.
27:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, how did you feel? And I don't know you
27:59
Speaker 2: were in the courtroom.
28:00
Speaker 3: Yeah.
28:01
Speaker 2: So they showed the baby, and there was the one
28:04
Speaker 2: they did allow the forensic I guessed, what is it called,
28:08
Speaker 2: the one that said that there were the lungs were
28:11
Speaker 2: actually it knew that the baby was breathing. And then
28:12
Speaker 2: there was the other forensic expert who said the baby
28:16
Speaker 2: was probably not breathing right. But then they showed and
28:19
Speaker 2: then they showed the pictures of the baby, and I
28:21
Speaker 2: you know, in that moment, of course, you're picturing a
28:25
Speaker 2: baby and you're picturing the reality of it and how
28:29
Speaker 2: awful it is, and the whole story for me, it
28:32
Speaker 2: was so Gaiale based right, and I knew that it
28:34
Speaker 2: had happened in my sympathy for her. And then you didn't,
28:37
Speaker 2: thank you very much, show those pictures. But you know,
28:41
Speaker 2: then it occurs to you to me that there was
28:44
Speaker 2: a baby, and I don't know, I wasn't there. I
28:48
Speaker 2: really am choosing to believe that the baby was still
28:50
Speaker 2: born even with the two experts, and would that change
28:54
Speaker 2: my feeling about it if the baby wasn't born like
28:58
Speaker 2: was born alive and born breathing. I don't know, you know,
29:01
Speaker 2: I was so taken with her and so taken with
29:05
Speaker 2: this feeling of just injustice and heartbreak. So and then
29:12
Speaker 2: then there's the baby, and I guess I have to
29:14
Speaker 2: allow for that rate, I have to allow for these
29:17
Speaker 2: jurors to feel that to see these pictures, I don't know.
29:21
Speaker 1: Well, they actually they had wanted to bring like twenty
29:24
Speaker 1: five images in and they got them down to five
29:27
Speaker 1: and that was their biggest thing that they had for
29:31
Speaker 1: the prosecution had was those pictures because there it's very
29:33
Speaker 1: emotional to see.
29:35
Speaker 2: That was so weird. The judge also talking about his grandkids.
29:38
Speaker 2: That was I don't know why I thought that was
29:40
Speaker 2: so what we're you're the tell me what word I
29:43
Speaker 2: should use for that?
29:44
Speaker 3: What I mean, it's a little biased.
29:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, just to go back to the pictures really quickly,
29:49
Speaker 1: Like I think it's emotional because again, an animal had
29:54
Speaker 1: found the the it was definitely dead when it was
29:57
Speaker 1: left in the woods, found the dead baby and drive
29:59
Speaker 1: it to the roads. So it was missing an arm
30:02
Speaker 1: and a leg, and so you have people look at
30:05
Speaker 1: that and that's like really heart wrenching, right. I do
30:09
Speaker 1: think based on watching the whole trial through, we will
30:13
Speaker 1: never know if this baby was born alive or dead
30:15
Speaker 1: because the evidence really just didn't show it. I think
30:19
Speaker 1: the pathologists on the on the prosecution side, you know,
30:23
Speaker 1: they said that there was air in the avol line.
30:26
Speaker 1: But as the pathologist on the defense side said, you
30:29
Speaker 1: lift this baby up by its arms, Eric can go
30:32
Speaker 1: in the lungs, decomposition, Eric can go in the lungs.
30:36
Speaker 1: You know, it's just gases. Like so there's really no
30:39
Speaker 1: way to tell. And like I think, I think the
30:43
Speaker 1: important thing I mean for me at least in in
30:46
Speaker 1: in being there is that it's like what did Gail
30:49
Speaker 1: perceive at the time, And I do believe that Gail
30:53
Speaker 1: perceived this baby is dead.
30:55
Speaker 2: You know, some babies need from the film, yeah, some.
31:00
Speaker 1: Babies need to be like you know, with a doctor
31:03
Speaker 1: like you know kind of I don't know what they
31:05
Speaker 1: do the babies when I don't. Yeah, and the baby
31:07
Speaker 1: came is most likely purple. Like I think at that age,
31:10
Speaker 1: if I saw a purple baby come out of me
31:12
Speaker 1: in a toilet and it wasn't making a sound.
31:14
Speaker 3: I probably would think the baby was.
31:16
Speaker 2: Dead, Jessica. I think also like you do, the baby
31:19
Speaker 2: only because I have these feelings for Gail, and I
31:23
Speaker 2: just can't I just don't see it. I can't imagine
31:25
Speaker 2: her with a baby cry. I just and maybe the
31:28
Speaker 2: jurors did feel that that was a believable scenario. I
31:31
Speaker 2: don't know why were there, Why was it so predominantly male?
31:36
Speaker 2: I mean, right, the attorneys, they get to pick jurors.
31:39
Speaker 2: What happened there?
31:41
Speaker 1: So I talked to the prosecution about this, and they
31:44
Speaker 1: told me that in their research and just kind of
31:47
Speaker 1: looking at other cases around, there was a girl in
31:51
Speaker 1: Dayta and Ohio.
31:52
Speaker 3: She's the cheer later.
31:53
Speaker 2: In the film, right, a little blonde, right her.
31:56
Speaker 1: But the prosecution on that case thought that they should
31:59
Speaker 1: go for a female jury because they felt like women
32:02
Speaker 1: would not buy any of this, that she didn't know
32:06
Speaker 1: she was pregnant or like anything. So they packed the
32:09
Speaker 1: jury full of women, and the women came out hand
32:12
Speaker 1: in hand and acquitted her. And so they were like,
32:15
Speaker 1: oh gosh, like, no, women are not our friends, so
32:19
Speaker 1: we need men.
32:20
Speaker 3: So they packed the jury full of men.
32:22
Speaker 2: But why didn't the defense get a chance to deny that.
32:25
Speaker 1: I don't know if the defense realized the power of
32:30
Speaker 1: having a full jury of women. You know are also
32:36
Speaker 1: you know, no, you know, no, I don't mean to
32:40
Speaker 1: have been anybody here, but I do think like they
32:43
Speaker 1: are men, and maybe they thought the same thing. I
32:45
Speaker 1: have no idea, I don't neither really.
32:47
Speaker 2: It just it was a powerful statement that the jury
32:50
Speaker 2: was mainly men. Have you been are you allowed to be?
32:54
Speaker 2: Have you been in touch with her? With Gail?
32:56
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we've been in touch. I also showed her
32:58
Speaker 1: the film before were Yeah. I just wanted to make
33:02
Speaker 1: sure that she felt okay about everything, and she she
33:05
Speaker 1: cried through the whole thing. She felt that represented her story.
33:09
Speaker 2: She felt a film misrepresented her story.
33:11
Speaker 3: Oh no, represented her story.
33:13
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it did good, okay, And also that.
33:16
Speaker 3: She hoped it would help other women.
33:18
Speaker 1: And yeah, I showed her family the attorney's mark everybody
33:22
Speaker 1: before we locked picture, just to make sure everybody like
33:24
Speaker 1: saw it first. And yeah, they've been to the family's
33:28
Speaker 1: been to our premiere at south By Southwest, and we're
33:31
Speaker 1: going to be We're doing our theatrical run now that
33:34
Speaker 1: we're going to be playing New York, La, San Francisco
33:38
Speaker 1: and a bunch of other places across the country starting
33:40
Speaker 1: in July, and we'll be doing an impact campaign as
33:44
Speaker 1: well with the film, so we'll be taking it to universities. Good.
33:47
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm so glad.
33:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
33:49
Speaker 2: Those are my favorite crime documentaries in terms of like
33:53
Speaker 2: when there's something to really learn. And I feel like
33:56
Speaker 2: this was for me personally. There was a lot to
33:59
Speaker 2: learn here. And you know, I didn't so much about
34:03
Speaker 2: this that I would have never understood without the film,
34:06
Speaker 2: So you know, well done there. I think it's going
34:09
Speaker 2: to make a lot of people think and a lot
34:11
Speaker 2: of people talk, and maybe things will will change. And
34:15
Speaker 2: again I'm like, I worry. I'm worried about Gail. Is
34:17
Speaker 2: she okay? Because she is she okay? She's in prison
34:20
Speaker 2: for fifteen at the minimum.
34:22
Speaker 1: I mean, I think she really struggles with what her
34:23
Speaker 1: purpose is because ironically, as based on the crime or whatever,
34:28
Speaker 1: I mean, she always wanted to be a mother and
34:30
Speaker 1: so her whole purpose was around that, and so I
34:33
Speaker 1: think not having her kids and her family, she really.
34:36
Speaker 3: Struggles with that.
34:37
Speaker 1: I share a lot of like the impact work we
34:40
Speaker 1: are doing like we shared the film with NYU Law
34:43
Speaker 1: Students American.
34:44
Speaker 2: Classic like cool.
34:46
Speaker 3: It's going to be opening up.
34:47
Speaker 1: The Marseille Society Conference in South Africa in September tonight,
34:51
Speaker 1: it's playing in La at the Postpartum Support inter Wow.
34:56
Speaker 3: So I told her all of.
34:57
Speaker 1: This and she she has a lot of hope with that,
35:00
Speaker 1: Like she's like just really as glad her story is
35:04
Speaker 1: helping educate people because she really doesn't want this to
35:06
Speaker 1: happen to any other girls.
35:08
Speaker 2: I don't either can help with her pearol hearing.
35:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, potentially, I mean, we just want more people to
35:14
Speaker 1: know about her story, especially in Ohio. So maybe there's
35:17
Speaker 1: more conversations around this.
35:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, yeah, I have to wrap. But Jessica, I'm
35:22
Speaker 2: so grateful that you came on. I'm grateful for the film.
35:25
Speaker 2: I think it's beautiful. Congratulations to you. Thank you so
35:28
Speaker 2: much for joining us, Thank you
35:30
Speaker 3: So much for having me.