Latest / Houselights: A Film Director Podcast / Adaptation (2002) - Spike Jonze | Houselights #239

Transcript

Adaptation (2002) - Spike Jonze | Houselights #239 · Houselights: A Film Director Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the ned Palty.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Houselights, the podcast that tried to review a
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: movie about a book about flowers, and somewhere along the
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: way things got weird. There were dreams, sex swamps, screenwriting gurus,
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: and one very sweaty Nick Cage. I'm Tristan Riddell, your host,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: currently caught in an endless loop of rewriting this intro
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: while spiraling into self loathing, sugar binges, and the haunting
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: echo of Bob McKee yelling God help you if you
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: use voiceover. And Next in our neurotic writer's room, Who's smart, sincere,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: and possibly on the verge of falling for an orchid
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: poacher John Mills and complete being our trio is someone
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: who recently confessed he might leave everything behind to chase
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: orchids in the Florida Swamp Darren Moser. Today we're unraveling
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: adaptation the two thousand and two film where Nick Cage
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: plays twin screenwriters. Meryl Streep gets high and maybe falls
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: in love with a toothless orchid thief and the movie
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: you thought you were watching takes a hard left into drugs, murder,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: and an alligator. This podcast is dedicated to my twin brother,
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Hank Radell. Rest in peace, Brother, Rest in peace. All right,
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: So I have seen this movie many times. I did
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: not see this in theaters. I was too young at
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: the time, I think, but I did buy it buy one,
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: get one free at Blockbuster previously viewed movies. And so
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: I've had this on DVD for a very long time.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: When was the first time you guys saw this.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: I don't think I saw this in theaters. I know
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: I saw it on home video, but I'm pretty sure
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: that's the first time I saw it. I haven't watched
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: it in a very long time since. But it's definitely
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: a movie where, even if you've only seen it once
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: and it's on home video, somebody says adaptation, you're like, oh, yeah,
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: I know that one. Like this movie sticks with you
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: regardless of whether you loved it or hated it, like
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: it definitely carves out a little little segment in your
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: brain where you're like, oh, yeah, the Nicholas Cage plays
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: his own twin sort of thing, Darren, how about you today?
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: This was my first time watching it. The cover of
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: the potted plant that's cracked. It makes a lot more
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: sense now because I remember looking at it, you know,
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: on a blockbuster shelf and being like adaptation, what okay,
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: it's it's his head that doesn't make any sense, And
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: then I kind of never thought about it again. We
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: probably were supposed to watch this in review for one
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: of my film classes in college. It feels like the
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: kind of movie that we was on a list and
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: I somehow dodged it, not in a negative way, but
• 2:55
  Speaker 4: just never never came across it. So it was fun
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: watching this app after John Malkovich, same writer. I mean,
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: there's shots of John Malkovich being made in this. It's
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: very meta, but not meta. It's it's it's something that's
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: for sure.
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: That's a way to put it.
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Feel How did you feel about the being John Malkovich stuff?
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Like were you did you think it was fun? Did
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: you think it was cheap?
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: Like?
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: What did you like when you first responded to it?
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: What was that response?
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: Well, honestly, usually I never try to look at a
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: Wikipedia article if I have not seen the movie at all,
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: because it's very quickly will give away spoilers and things.
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: But when I saw that, I did have to pause
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: and looked up the writer's Wikipedia page, and it was like,
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: did he write John Malkovich. Yes, okay confirmed? Does he
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: have a twin?
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: No?
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: Okay, because I I think rightfully so the movie was
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: throwing what is reality at me right off the bat,
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: and I was already treading water, which I it is great,
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: Like how movie giving that visceral reaction? So yeah, because
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: it's like hiding the lies in truth? Was he the
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: writer of John Malkovich? Yes, and then you start to
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: believe like, well, does that mean that that's how we
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: acted on set?
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: Well?
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: I don't know now because I know part of what
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: you told me is true?
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: So is the rest true?
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: And that's kind of the whole movie.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: It is it is. I think one of the challenging
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: things for this movie is I think it is actually
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: and this is gonna sound insane the way I say it.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: I think that this is less accessible to non film
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: fans than Malkovich. Malkovich is one where it's like, if
• 4:43
  Speaker 3: you sit down with somebody and they're not like a
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: diehard film fan, you can be like, listen, this is
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: just weird. Just get just go with it, and they'll
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: go with it, and then you sit down with them
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: to watch this. This is gonna be one where you're
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: going to lose half of the audience by the closing
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: credits because they're gonna be like, what the hell is
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: even happening right now? And I think that this is
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: I think that if anything, there is a like this
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: is because Darren, you said this when we were talking
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: about John Malkovich where it was not You said, Hollywood
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: loves a movie that's about movies, and I would say
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: that process right, and I would say that this movie
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: feels like it's made for those people who felt that
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: being John Malkovich wasn't enough that you know, like they
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: were like, you know what, we could take it up
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: to eleven, Let's go ahead and amp this one up.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: So I think that's the biggest challenge with this movie
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: is it really climbs into itself after a certain point
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: and you're either going to choose to go with it
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: or you're just gonna say, okay whatever and disconnect. Like
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: I could very easily see sitting down with my wife
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: and about thirty minutes in, she'd be like, well, why
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: am I even watching this? You know, walks out.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: I mean, I will say, on a positive note, I
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: think it's trying to work at two levels where it's
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: telling us a story as an audience, but obviously it
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: is also having a conversation looking off to the left
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: at writers that are going to react in a very
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: different way of Oh my gosh, I've been in my
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: head saying I'm stupid when I'm trying to write page
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: five of the draft. Oh so, like there's a relatability
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: in that because he's getting so meta on his own
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: writing of his own piece, and then he's also talking
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: to himself as his brother like it. Yeah, I think
• 6:36
  Speaker 4: there's kind of two movies going on. Both are a
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: bit wacky, but they're I mean, I have to give
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: it that.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about the dual protagonists. Well, I mean, I
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: guess they're not really both the protagonists, but like, let's
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: talk about the dual performance of Cage. What did you think, like, John,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: what did you think about his performances as both brothers,
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: and what did you think about the effectiveness of having
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: that within the movie.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: I think it's very effective, specifically because I think Nicholas
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: Cage is one of a handful of actors that can
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: pull this off without me call him buless at the
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: very beginning, like he has that energy, like I'm not
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: saying anything anybody else wouldn't say. I'm not like terribly
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: insightful here, but like Nicholas Cage comes on and you
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: see this sort of premise start playing out and you're like, yeah, okay,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: this Nicholas Cage movie, Sure that makes sense, and it's
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: I think it's because Nicholas Cage is arguably the most
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: fearless actor that we have in the modern day, and like,
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: I would struggle to think of this movie working with
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: anybody but him. I don't think it does. And I
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: think it's I think that the premise is high brow
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: enough that if you don't cast the right actor in
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: this role, you're all is lost. So kudos to them
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: forgetting a Cage to play these roles, because I don't
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: think it works without him. I mean, are there other
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: actors where it could have happened. Yes, But I would
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: have to sit here and spend the entire hour with
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: you guys being like, well, who else could pull this off?
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: You know? That's the That's the beauty of it, though,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: is that he's not the first person to come to mind,
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: and you probably would take a very long time to
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: think of Nick Cage when like when you're developing this movie,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: but then after you mention it, or even after you
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: see it, you're like, I, who else could you know?
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: Who else but Cage? And that that's that's a really
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: interesting and very narrow niche Uh, Darren, what what did
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: you think about I I want to ask you specifically
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: about the screenwriting process that they both went through. Obviously,
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: there are two sides of the spectrum where you know,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: like they're they're showing extremes, you know, where they have Charlie,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: who is the uh he sees himself as an artist
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: and he wants to do something unique and different and
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: you know, like inaccessible. And then you have you have
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Donald who's just like I want to have I want
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: to have. I want car chases, I want cops and
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: guns and horses and everything like that. Darren, what did
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: you think about the screenwriting aspect between the two of them?
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: It, I mean, first off, like you very quickly buy
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: this as two people, Like there's no suspension right away.
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: You're like, okay, these are they're they're different enough. You
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: don't feel like, oh, he just pitched his voice down
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: a little and now he's Donald. It's like no, this
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: feels like a different person, and yeah, it takes a
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: because that's the arc we go through is with Charlie.
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: Like when he's bouting off some of his ideals, I'm like, dude,
• 9:35
  Speaker 4: like good luck because and then he kind of gets
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: it shoved in his face with the lecture and it's like, yeah,
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: you're what do you like? I want to write a
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: movie with no conflict, Like it makes me think back
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: of Gene Roddenberry, you know, laying down the well. We
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: have to have these characters, but they can't actually have
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: interpersonal conflicts and it's like welcome to Star Trek Deep
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: Space nine, and we're gonna show you why how we
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: can do that. But no, I think the highest compliment
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: could be by the end, I cared about both characters.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: I saw them as people. I cared about what happened
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: to them. I mean it was in the fourth act
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: because you know, it takes some turns at the end.
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: But no, I think as writers, it it did straddle
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: that line of a movie about writers that's also being
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: written like it's very meta, but it doesn't come across
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: as like he never broke the fourth wall. He's never
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: looking at me the audience, And I think that would
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: have broken it, but it straddled that line, but it
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: didn't go over.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I like that. That's interesting. I never really thought of
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: it that way before. But that would have been a
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: very easy thing to do. I particularly like it when
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: the fourth wall is broken. But you're right, this wouldn't
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: have worked like this would have been off putting.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: It's all ready deep enough where he's he's talking about
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: the movie that he's right, like he catches up to
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: the self moment in his writing. It's like we put
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: in the VHS tape for Spaceballs and we're now the.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: First thing that I thought of that. I'm so glad
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: that you mentioned that.
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: So it but it works because it's like it's just
• 11:20
  Speaker 4: that moment, I guess. I will say he does kind
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: of break the fourth wall right at that moment where
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: he says, Oh, I shouldn't use voiceover. Ah, what the heck,
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna use it anyway, Like, because he's caught up
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: to now there you feel the wall break a tiny bit,
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: but he's not talking to us, but he is because
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: it's now it's but it works. I will say, it
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: does work.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: You know. I got to interject really quick though, because
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: you know we're talking about breaking the fourth wall, Nicholas
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: Cage's performance, what the movie's about, and everything like that. Uh,
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: what does Susan Orlean, who wrote The Orchid Thief feel
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: without this movie? Like that? That's what I can't that's
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: a kick it out, you know.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: I looked it up. I looked it up because I
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: knew this question was coming, because my first instinct was, oh, man,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: I bet she thought this was awesome, you know, like
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: seeing herself like, you know, like running around in the
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: swamp with a gun trying to kill it. First, but
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: then I really then I sobered up, and then I
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: was just like, wait, Like, this is somebody who's in
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: the public eye who understands that audiences sometimes aren't very
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: smart and thinks movies are real. And that was her
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: first instinct was people are going to think that I'm
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: like this. People are going to think that that third
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: act actually happened. And so she initially said no when
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: they pitched it to her. She's like, no, you can't
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: portray me this way. But then basically everybody else around
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: her said yes. And then she started realizing like the
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: craziness of the script and how over the top it
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: was and how Nick Cage was going to play Charlie
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Coff and she's like, okay, and now she actually does
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: love the movie, like once it got made, she actually
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: does love it. But there are morons out there who
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: believe that Kaufman has a brother and that he died
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: tragically because the movie.
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: Was dedicated on the Titanic.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: I saw it, you know.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: But that's the thing though, that this movie was dedicated
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: to his brother, and it was co written by his brother.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: He's the only fictional character in history to win an
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Oscar or at least be nominated for one. And it's
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: and I remember, like when this was going out, like
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: I was listening to the radio and I heard a
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: movie critic talking about his Charlie Kaufman's brother, like he
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: was a real person and that it was tragic how
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: he passed, and like how it was cool that the
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: movie was was dedicated to him. And I was like,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: oh my god, people are actually believing this.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, But at the same time, like what we've touched
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: on this with Stone covering the Doors or JFK or
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: Spike Lee talking about Malcolm X and stuff like that,
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: It's like people go in and I think people, you know,
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: we all know very well. Yeah, it's very easy to condemn.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: But people go in with a very trusting nature like
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: they you know, it doesn't matter how many disclaimers you
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: put on. There are saying, you know, the events in
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: this picture are fictional. Everybody you see is fictional. This
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: is all a work of drama. Everybody's going to sit
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: there and say, oh, well, this must be true. But
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: I would flip that around and I would say that
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: at a base level, it's sort of a tribute to
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Nick Cage because to Darren's point, you're invested enough in
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: both of these characters by the end that it is
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: the ultimate emotional trick. It's like a magic trick where
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: you believe that the girl got sawn in half or
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: something like that. You know it's not true, but there's
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: a part of your brain that's like, well, that's what
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: I saw, that's that's what's true. So I'll be looking
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: a little bit of a break on that.
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: If I saw that he had a brother, I would
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: not have been surprised. It was that it makes you question,
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: it makes you and I did not know that both
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: Charlie and Donald were because already one of them is
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: a real person. But that is you know, that blows
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: me away that both names were on the nomination list
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: and what is not even a real person?
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, which you would think that the Academy would
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: have some sort of rule where they would say no, guys,
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: you can't do or WGA would be like, no, you
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: can't have.
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: A rule is put into effect only real people may
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: be nominated for Academy Awards.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: Right, I mean it feels like the ultimate thumb in
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: the eye to the Writer's Guild and the Academy to
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: be like, oh, look your rules, I found the loophole. Right,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: you allow allow, you allow Alan Smithy and other things
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: like that, I'm just going to make up a name
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: and this person doesn't even exist. Like it almost feels
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: like a prank that the South Park writers would make,
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: So all right, there's a there's a lot of great
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: people in this movie. There's a lot of great performances.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: And since we were talking about awards, Chris Cooper won
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: the Best Supporting Actor Oscar for his performance. You know, Darren,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: do you think that was deserved?
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: Absolutely?
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: I mean, you say, then there are a lot of
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: people in this movie, but there's really three, Like it
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: is such a small micro cast of and again obviously
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: they interact with you know, Tilda Swinston and many other characters.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: But yeah, he transformed in this movie. Although I do
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: want to ask you guys with the roach, I feel
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: like it's a little different watching adaptation in a post
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: Tiger King world, because that's what I immediately thought of
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: of that kind of like off the wall, like it
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: felt like that's the person, but obviously that didn't exist
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: back you know two so did did either of you
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: on this rewatch? Did it even cross your mind until
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: I just said it, I didn't think of Tiger King.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: Now that you say it, it's almost like Tristan's thing,
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: where it's like, well, once you say Nicholas Cage, you're like,
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: of course this is the only guy. I think that's
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: really insightful. That's yeah. I can get that sort of
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: vibe where it's like a guy who's invested so much
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: of his identity in this to hide from some pain. Like,
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: if anything, it allows you. I think what was beautiful
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: about the way the character is written, in the way
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: that Cooper performs it is that there is I think
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: it allows you a specific channel of empathy for somebody
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: who you might look at as a dismissable person if
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: you were to meet them where you can go. You
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: know what, maybe this person is so committed to this
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: bit because they're so hurt that it's their shell, it's
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: their protection. And like, I think that's in a large
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: way a beautiful thing. I like what you said here
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: because it really is helping me look at this character
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: in that sense of you know, and it is there
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: in the text of the film. This is a guy
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: who has built this whole self as a way to
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: protect himself from being hurt again. But then at the
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: end of the movie that's what winds up hurting him.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: And so there's there's this beautiful, cyclical sort of idea
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: about it. And so you feel sympathy. Even though he's
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: he's doing illegal things, exploiting a loophole and doing terrible stuff,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: you still feel sorry for him. At the end, you
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: feel a sadness for him instead of an anger. I think,
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: I think, I think Tiger King is a great way
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: to to draw that out.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I always love Chris Cooper in a movie.
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I think he's one of those actors that it's easy
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: to say, like, oh, Chris Cooper's in this it's probably
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: gonna be good, or at least his performance is going
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: to be good. And that's how I felt about Jim
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Beaver too, even though he's only in one scene, Like
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: when as the as the ranger a pull up and
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: you see Jim Bieber's face, You're just like, ah, Jim Bieber, okay,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: all right, right, cool cool, cool, cool, solid performance coming.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: And apparently Stephen Tobolowski was also a ranger and he
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: got completely cut from the from the movie.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: That's a damn shame. I know, I love Tobolowski, He's
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: so great.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: And also I mean, like, you know, like we even
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: you know, we haven't even got to Meryl Streep yet,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: who's obviously is a highlight. But you know, like you
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: have Kara Seymour in this who I can't think, I
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: can't help but think of American Psycho, you know, when
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: when she pops up, and we have Gregory Eitzen, who
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: like we basically see like the side of his head
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: and he's a prosecutor. And we also have Peter Jason
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: as the defense attorney. Like they get almost no lines
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: at all. But yet these are really good actors all throughout,
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: and so Meryl Streep's performance. Like, John, I know that
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: you have a mural of Meryl Streep on your wall.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: I do, and she's she's one of your favorite actresses
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: of all time.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: I have a think full Streep tattoo on my back
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: in fact, and a full back tattoo.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Are feeling like she hasn't gotten enough nominations.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I honestly know she hasn't gotten enough recognition through time.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, talk about an overlooked actress who hasn't gotten
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: the claim that's well, do her.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: She'll breakthrough. I was hoping it was this, but you.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Know, at some point, at some point, she will stop
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: being the Susan Lucci of big budget films, and she
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: will in fact get recognized.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: So for all of you who don't know, we're being
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: extremely tongue in cheek. Yes, John, That's why I'm asking
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: you this question, as someone who is not an automatic
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: Streep fan. What did you think about her performance in
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: this movie? Was it just Meryl Streep being male Streep
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: or did you actually connect with his character.
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I did not connect with the character until the ending,
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: but I credit a lot of that with how the
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: ending is put together editorially. I listen, I have nothing
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: against miss Streep. I don't. I have nothing against her
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: as a person. I get why everybody loves her as
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: an actress, but I can't see characters beyond her. And
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: if I have to jump on this grenade and be like,
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: it's a John problem, Okay, that's fine, that's fine, it's
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: a John problem. That's fine. But during the uh, you know,
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: the first three quarters of the movie, I'm just like, look,
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: there's Meryl Streep doing the thing and that. But then
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: at the end, like the very end, I think that
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: there is the way that it's put together. I'm able
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: to forget that it's Streep, and so I will. Actually,
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: I guess it's kind of backhanded compliment where it's like,
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: you know, the they they help me get past my
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: Meryl Streep issues in the ending.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: That's not an unfair nothing to say, because I mean, sure,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: she's surrounded by Nick Cage doing two performances that are
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: very anti Nick Cage and Chris Cooper, who you never
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: like it. He completely like the closest that you could
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: see Chris Cooper doing this is way back with great expectations,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: and even then it's completely different. And so she's surrounded
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: by people who are doing something radically different and she's
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: in her Niche like, this is a very Meryl Street
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: performance in a very Meryl Street movie. That's her. So
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I completely understand where you're coming from, John, But the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: thing is is that you I think what I really
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: liked of her performance is the subtlety of her face acting.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Like her facial expression I thought was superb in this.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: I think like when she was listening to Laroche in
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: the van, and when she was kind of hiding in
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: the bathroom from her friends, and then at the very
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: end when she decides that they need to kill Kaufman,
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: just like that everybody's taken a beat and letting Orlean
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: have her moment, and like seeing that journey that she
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: takes in her mind. I think that was the standout
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: performance for not stand up performance like that was the
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: standout aspect of her performance for me. Was just like
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: the subtlety of her facial acting. But it's it's easy
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: to get overlooked with Cooper and Cage right next to you.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm I'm in the same I'm very similar to John.
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: Where like Chris Cooper and Nick Cage vanished into the
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: roles very very very quickly, and but Meryl Streep and
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: I'm not, like not a Meryl Street fan, but I
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: it just she's a great actress, Like I recognize her,
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: but I'm not putting her on a pedestal. Which but
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: I'm looking now with La Roach like I it looks
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: like they were very close to doing John Taturou, which
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: that would have been I could see him doing it.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: Nothing against Chris Cooper, but h and then but one
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: of the other supporting cast names you hadn't gotten around
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: to you at Tristan was Brian Cox, who.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: Just nailed that.
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: Now I cannot watch Brian Cox unfortunately in anything and
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: not think of X two, like I.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Just well, this is this was this was Brian Cox
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: playing Brian Cox. Basically, yeah, this.
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: Is McKee is a real person too, Like that's there's
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: so much blurring in this movie.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: But unfair that the X two Like, yes, he's great
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: next too, but come on, man, you're killing me here
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: at least go with like you't play Cannibal or something.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Come on, man, John killing in South Park earlier? Do
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: you remember that bit where they said that, like Steven
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Spielberg's Coming Town known for such movies as as a
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: nineteen forty two and and always Yes, yeah, yeah, that's
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: that's Darren saying Brian Cox from Next two all.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: Right, sorry, it's ingrained in my brain. I think you
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: did an amazing job in that.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: Not he did. I don't see. That's the funniest thing
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: is I don't discount that, like like Tristan, you're mentioning.
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: Patrick never greater than Charles Xavier in his wheelchair.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: No, but like you put Brian Cox in a movie
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, on board, Okay, I'll watch it just
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: to see whatever scenes he's in, because he is that good,
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: Like he's my Meryl Streep. Where if you put Brian
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: Cox in a movie and I'm like that kid say that.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: When Maryl's in the movie, it doesn't it doesn't translate.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: I can't. But it's no, like Brian Cox, I think,
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: is so he's so fun Like.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Well that is on stage, Yes, Like that scene when
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: he's on stage is genuinely like probably one of the
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: biggest takeaways from the movie for me. Like when I
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: think about adaptation, I think about Brian Cox screaming at
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: him saying what, like why would I want to go
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: see your movie? Why would I want to give you
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: two hours of my life if you think nothing happens
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: in the world, and I think that's a it's it's
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: such a great microcosm of I think an issue that
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: a lot of people have where and a lot of
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: writers have it too, where you're constantly told we'll write
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: what you know. Okay, fine, But I feel like there's
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of issues that people have where because it
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: didn't happen to them, they think it doesn't happen. So
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: because Kaufman has had an uneventful life, he thinks that
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: that's what life is. It's uneventful, and so he projects
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: that onto other people. But you know, McKee's character and
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: the real McKee, you know, says like, you know, it
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: gave all these examples about like another like every day
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: a human being decides to destroy another one, you know,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: chooses a woman over his brother, you know, and everything
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: like that, just like all these very like none of
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: these examples that he gave were outrageous, and it just
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: lands and I just I absolutely love Cage's performance and goes, okay, thanks, yeah,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: sects down.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: I know, you know, it's this might be an outsized comparison,
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: but do you think that Brian Cox It's not a
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: one to one, not by any stretch. But I feel
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: like we're in a post Magnolia world where Brian Cox
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: sees this as his sort of Tom Cruise on stage
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: self help guru moment where he comes in and he
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: knows his entire and what I mean by that is
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: he knows in this scene his entire job is to
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: punch the audience in the mouth, to just unsettle us
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: to the point where we're like, what is even happening
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: right now? Like, do you think that's an apt comparison?
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Do you think that that's a good good way to
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: look at it?
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I can, I can see that. I was gonna
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: say I hadn't watched the trailer for this movie, but
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: it's one of those movies where if they had just
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: shown a large chunk of the Brian Cox scene and
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: maybe a little bit of dialogue from Nick k and
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: that's the entire trailer, I think I would have been hooked.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: Like movies very rarely do that where they show you
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: a tenant. You know a few others have done that,
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: where they've given you a large chunk of the movie
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: or a scene and it's and they leave you hanging
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: wanting more, and I think the Brian Cox scene could
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: have delivered that.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't recall the trailer, but I agree
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: with you. If I had seen the Brian Cox scene
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: even in two thousand and two, I probably would have
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: made a real effort to see this in the movie theater.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: I think it also probably would have helped audiences. Again,
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know if the trailer was that, no doubt,
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: but that would have helped audiences understand what they were
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: getting into for the movie and probably would have drawn
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: more people into it because I think that this movie
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: is again getting back to like sort of what we've
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: been talking about since the beginning. It's like there's a
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: there's a barrier here, and I think if you were
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: to lead with the Brian Cox thing, that would at
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: least inform the audience of the potential audience of what
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: they can expect this movie to be about, because that's
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: what a trailer was supposed to tell you, is like,
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: what is this movie about? What am I expected to
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: understand or glean from the characters going through this movie?
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: And that really is a thing where for all of
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: the other stuff, Cox is the right actor because he's
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: I think He's just one of the best actors that
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: I've ever seen on screen. But that scene distills the
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: entire why of the movie because it's all about how
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: do I tell a story, how do I convey an idea,
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: how do I, you know, make it interesting for somebody?
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: And I think it's so fascinating because the movie is
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: on a certain level. We just did all of the
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: screen movies, and it's so meta, but in such a
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: different way from the scream movies from you know, like
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: it's meta, but not in that wink and a smile
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: sort of way, in that very deep sort of way
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: that you expect when somebody says that something is meta.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, John, I think that what is
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: this movie about?
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: I think this movie is honestly about the difficulty of
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: trying to relate because you have Orlean trying to relate
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: to the Orca Thief, you have the Orca thief trying
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: to relate to the world. You have the writer trying
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: to relate to himself and trying to relate to everybody
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: around him in terms of how do I communicate things?
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: So I get I guess probably if I were to
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: say one word, I would say this movie is about communication.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: How do I communicate? But basically that scene where they're
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: both sitting in the swamp, something I do not recommend
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: in the Florida Everglades. Just going to put that out there,
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: where you know, Charlie and Donald are talking to each
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: other and they're sitting there talking and it's about they
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: suddenly realize that their whole problem has been trying to communicate,
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: trying to understand each other, and I mean, that's what
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: I think the movie is about.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: Well, and in that scene, it they finally break down
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: their assumptions of each other. I mean, and I think
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: it's very subtle, but when they're talking about like the
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: past as brothers do, like you feel that feels like
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: a brother conversation where he's like, oh, you were rejected
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: by this girl and and I thought you didn't you
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: know they were laughing at you and you didn't know.
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: And then he's like, you choose what you do with
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: your love and that's that's it. No one can change that.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I love that line, oh right, where he
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: said like that was her problem, not mine.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: I think that that conversation is one of the best
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: conversations ever committed to film, And I think that that
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: whole thing is absolutely gorgeous, Like it's if you walk
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: away with nothing else from this film, like I could,
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: I would show just that scene to like a teenager,
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: to be like, look like it's the ultimate it's gonna
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: be okay scene, you know, like you have to make
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: a decision not to let the world tell you how
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: to feel about things. You will decide how you feel
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: about things. I think that scene is so gorgeous. Thank
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: you for calling it out, Darren, because that's that's exactly.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Right, Darren. What did you think about the third act?
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: And what did you think about the scene here? Okay,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: here's I'm gonna give you a John question here where
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: all right?
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: So he's gonna be two minutes long, and Tristan's gonna say,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: what are you even asking me? So just so the
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: on his understands.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So we have the scene in the hotel room
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: with the two brothers, and Charlie is obviously anxious and
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: he's frustrated, and he's also jealous that Donald has written
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: a screenplay. People like, get Catherine Keener, is that his house?
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: You know, Like he's like he's supposed to be the artist,
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: he's supposed to be the genius writer and his brother,
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: who he sees is now a Hollywood hack, is getting success,
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: and so he says, how would you end it? What
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: would you do? From that moment on, we get a
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: completely different movie. We get Donald's movie.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: What did you make? The hand off?
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: The protagonistness? And it shifts, Yeah, it too, even though
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: it focuses on Charlie. Still you're getting a shift in
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: perspective on how the story is told. So what did
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: you think about that? What does the third act work
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: for you? Because you know Brian Cox him said himself
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: said you may have issues, but nail the third act
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: and you'll be fine. Yeah, did this third act? Did
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: they nail the third act in your eyes? Or was
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: it weird? Was it too different from the previous two? No?
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: I think they did.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: I mean I almost call it the fourth act. It's
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: so late in the game that it feels that removed.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: But now it does.
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: It's it's so amazing how it lands, because, like you
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: just said, they telegraphed it with Brian Cox saying, you
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: nail the third act, like again, semi meta because we
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: still need to nail the third act and the third
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: act feels very different. I will say that the protagonist
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: miss shifts because if you think about it, Donald starts
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: driving the story, his decisions of go, where they go,
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: who they do, who they're spying on. Like, I will
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: fully say that it shifts between the two characters. But yeah,
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: I mean it caught me off guard as well, because,
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: you know, to be honest, like getting up to there,
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: I'm still kind of grasping and I'm trying to get
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: a bead on this movie, and it's kind of slogging
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: along and then it's like a click and you're like, oh,
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: I'm now invested. But I needed all those other acts
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: to get there. You couldn't have dropped me in right here.
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: I would add no idea what who any of these
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: characters are, But I have to admit it got me there,
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: It got me where. I'm now caring about the characters.
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: I'm caring what happens to them. You're throwing crazy stuff
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: at them. Man, you know cars, you never know what
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: cars are going to do in this movie. But yeah,
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: I will say it very much succeeds in the third act,
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: and like they telegraph you kind of then, don't scrutinize
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: the other two acts as much as hard because at
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: the end of the day, they did their job. Were
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: they amazing? Was I fully invested by the first five minutes? No,
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: not even clothes, but it got me there.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: John Lance Accord photographed this movie, and he's the one
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: who did being John Malkovich as well. I have a
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: two part question for you. Did you feel like this
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: was the same cinematographer that he was doing the same thing.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: Do you feel like this was an evolution of a
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: photographer of a cinematographer? And how do you feel he
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: filmed the twin scenes? Did that land for you?
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: I am going to answer in reverse order. The twin
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: scenes I think were absolutely nailed. I have a deep
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: and abiding hatred of split screen, like all the way
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: up to and including Star Trek six, where like The
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: Blue the split screen doesn't line up as well as
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: it should and it just it. I have an unreasoning
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: hatred of it as a tactic because I think that
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: rarely does it work well, and I think it's always
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: better in concept than execution, Whereas in this case, I
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: think that the split screen works freakin' perfectly. I will
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: sing its praises to my dying day because I think
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: that it does everything exactly right, including balancing the exact
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: right amount of one shot and two shot, so that
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: I accept that they're in the same space, but I
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: don't rely on it, and I don't have it long
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: enough to stare at it and say I can see
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: where the line is, sort of like just to throw
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: it under the bus. Another Star Trek movie, the overuse
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: of diopter in Star Trek the motion picture, which fills
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: me with rage every time I watch it. Anyway, so
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: I love the split screen use. I think that Lance
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: Chord deserves a lot of praise. I think that additionally,
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: Nicholas Cage deserves a lot of praise because I feel
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: that both of those performances inhabit the scene that it's in,
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: and like there's a logical part of my brain that
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: understands that they are not actually there at the same time,
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: but I feel like they are there at the same time,
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: and so that is to heap all of the praise
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: on that. Do I think this looks like the same
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: person that shot being John Malkovich. I think I wouldn't
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: necessarily call it an evolution. That feels like a weird
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: word to use. I'm not throwing that at you as
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: like an insult sort of thing. But I think that
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: this is in an adaptation. See what I did of
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: the shooting style of Malkovich where I think that the
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: I think I look at this and visually I can
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: see a stamp where it's very similar. I can tell
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: it's the same people put this movie together. But while
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't necessarily say it's an evolution, it reads as
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: the same people put it together but understood the sensibilities
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: they needed for this story. They adapted for the type
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: of story they were going to tell. I don't know
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: if that makes sense, but that's that's what I'm saying.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: Darren, going completely opposite direction, different direction. Did you recognize
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Doug Jones in this movie?
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: I did not. I just saw him in the credit
• 38:50
  Speaker 4: list and I'm trying to place him.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: John John, do you do you know where he is
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: in the movie.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: No, I don't.
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: I mean, he's so tall. I'm trying to think when
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: he would have.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: He was the orchid thief who was dying of dysentery.
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: Oh oh my gosh. Okay, okay, okay, okay, Well, like
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: Nicholas Cage's casting, it makes perfect sense once you say it.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, God's right. Not crazy, Darren. Uh. I hate to
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: give you this question, but I'm going to give it
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: to you anyway.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: We're talking about Spike Jones.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: We're talking about you know, we haven't talked about Spike
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: Jones yet. We're going to end with him. Okay, okay,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: But Carter Burwell did the score for this, as he
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: did for being John Malkovich. Was this a memorable score
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: to you? Was it just a score? You know?
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: How did?
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: How did you feel?
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: I feel it was.
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: A good score, but it I mean, I feel like
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: this is my broken record of I'm a theme guy.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Like if you give me a theme for a character
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: or a person or a place or whatever, I'm going
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: to remember it. And this wasn't a theme type score,
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: which isn't bad. I don't think it should have been
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: a theme type score. I don't think that it's would
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: have worked so memorable. I couldn't hum you a single bar.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: But did it ever distract me or take me out
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: of it or you know, jar me? No? And I
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: think in that regard, it did what a score should
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: do and under underscore, uh, the performances, because the performances
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: were what I was paying attention to.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: What's really weird. And this is weird for me to
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: even think this because I'm very much a fan of directors.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Obviously we all are, because this is a director focused podcast.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: But when when I think adaptation, I don't think Spike Jones.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: I don't think, Wow, that was a really well directed movie,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: even though he's the one who put all the pieces together.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: You know, he's the one who got the performances out
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: of these great actors. He's the one who, you know, like,
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: worked with the editor to put it together, who worked
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: with the cinematographer to get the shots. It's one of
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: those things where there's like almost so much going on
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: and so many good things that you forget that somebody
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: was at the helm. Am I alone in thinking that?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: Or how do you feel about that?
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: Would you say this feels like a Charlie Kaufman movie.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: I think that's the thing is that they did such
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: a good job at making this all about the writing
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: process that you forget that this is a movie that
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: was directed by someone and shot by someone and edited
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: by someone.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: I'll jump in, Darren, I completely agree this is I
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: lose Jones in this, and it is because of all
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: those other aspects that you're talking about specifically the writing.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: I think of this as a Charlie Kaufman movie. Is
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: that a tribute to Jones that he brought the writer's
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: intent so perfectly to screen that I forget that I
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: lose him. That it's an unintended side effect that I
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: think of being John Malkovich, and that I think of adaptation,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: And then I think of Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: which is one of my favorite movies of all time.
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: Just so you guys know, I adore that movie on
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: a level that I cannot even comprehend. I didn't know that,
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, I get like Eternal Sunshine of the
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: Spotless Mind. I think is one of the few perfect
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: films ever made in the history of humanity. And although
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: in the history of film, because you know, humanity has
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: been around a little bit longer than film arguably just
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: an depends on your philosophy, who knows, But I think that, yeah,
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: I think it's an unintended consequence of this film that
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: Spike Jones is lost. I think that I know that
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: he's the reason it comes together the way that it does.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: But I think that it is you know what, I'll
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: go back to making my bos Lherman reference. Mulan Ruse
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: comes together and everybody forgets that boz Luhrman was the
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: reason that it did.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: That's what I was thinking too. And also like with
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: being John Malkovich being nominated for Best Picture but he
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: wasn't nominated for Best Director, It's like, how do you
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: think this movie got together?
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: Exactly? Yeah, there was a ghost in the chair.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: No, I really jive with that, John, because it I
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: don't think any of us mean it in a negative way.
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: It's not at all like I think you look at
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: I think if I wasn't doing this as a podcast,
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: I just watch adaptation, I would look up the director
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: and once I see that he and Charlie collaborated on
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: their previous movie, it all would click and I'd be like, oh,
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: that makes total sense. Like they worked together, they made
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: John Malkovich, and then they have that trust and that
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: rapport and yeah, this movie is one hundred and ten
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: percent right focused. But it only happens because they already
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: have that. If it had been like Charlie's like, hey
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: I need a director, anyone want to come direct? This
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: not going to work? It had to be that pair
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: and that trust but yeah, he does kind of fade
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: into the production background, as it were, but that in
• 44:10
  Speaker 4: a way only allows the writing level to you know,
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: I mean, I mean you think of other movies like
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: The Artist or I mean or Again we've said, there's
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: a coffity of movies that are about the movie making process,
• 44:24
  Speaker 4: and this one is one of the top as far
• 44:28
  Speaker 4: as writing, like it has to be on that list,
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: on that short.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: List, John, do you think this movie is rewatchable? And
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: if so, why.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: I think it is rewatchable if it works for you.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: And this is one of those movies where I if
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: somebody were to come to me and say I hated adaptation,
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: I would look at them and I would say, I
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: understand and respect why you said that. Being John Malkovich,
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: I might defend even even a little bit and say no, no, no, no, no, no,
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: you've got to give it another shake. This one. If
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: somebody comes to me and says that, I'm simply going
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: to say, I understand you. I get it. This is
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: very much a movie that is rewatchable if and only
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: if you enjoy it, which I mean is true of
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: any movie. So I can rephrase it.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: You mean, if it clicks with you yeah.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: And you're going to know if it's rewatchable within the
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: first thirty minutes of the film. If you don't, if
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: you don't go along with it by that point, just leave.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: Just you're done. It's okay. We can all leave as friends.
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: There's no hard feelings.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Darren. I have a question for you, and it's my
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: last question because I'm hosting today and I make you
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: go first every single time. I need to hear your
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: final thoughts on the film. And how many script revisions
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: are you giving it? Out of five?
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: It's so many script revisions. No, yeah, this movie. I
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: mean like they telegraphed it. It nailed it in the
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: third act. I didn't think it was gonna get there.
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: Like I was along for the ride, but I was like,
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: what what is this about? Like my goodness, some of
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: the moments with Nick Cage and Charlie, like my skin
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: is crawling. I'm like, he's so socially awkward and in
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: his head and self deprecating, where I'm just like, h like,
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I can take a whole movie
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: of this guy and it. But again, I've said it before.
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: You know you're making me care about the character and
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: you and you express which character I should care about, Like, like,
• 46:43
  Speaker 4: this movie does a lot of things right in that
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: regard whether or not it's your favorite or not, that
• 46:48
  Speaker 4: doesn't matter in this case. It you know, pulls the
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: story together, has a wicked fourth act. I will say
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: it's a fourth act no matter what, because it is
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: so so late in game. But and it makes you
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: doubt in a way, what is real? What is biography?
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: What is you know?
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: Because there's a lot of I mean, like I feel
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: like I'm repeating what I've said before. But when you
• 47:14
  Speaker 4: hide the little lies within the truth, which this movie does,
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: of real people, real stories, real books, real writers, it
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: starts to bleed or blur the line between. So I'm
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna give it a four. This movie, I will say,
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: I kind of disagree with John as far as I
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: think if you're hooked in the first ten minutes, you know,
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: if it's rewatchable where I say, it really comes down
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: to the ending, like if you can make it through
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: the Like, yeah, you might get turned off in the
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: first ten minutes, but I think you have to get
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: this movie a whole watch through shake because it is
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: such a ending movie, you know, I can't think of
• 48:02
  Speaker 4: another example of an ending movie, but we all know
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: they exist. So yeah, I'm going to give it a four.
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: I will I rewatch it, probably not just because it
• 48:13
  Speaker 4: is it my favorite source material. Will I watch it
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: with a film friend who is interested in something like
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: that or hasn't seen it and I get to introduce
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: it to him. Absolutely, I would rewatch it in those circumstances,
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: but not as a casual viewing. So for four rewrites,
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: I'm almost done with the script. Guys, just give me
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: three four weeks.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: John, how many Nick Cage masturbation scenes out of five
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: are you giving this movie?
• 48:43
  Speaker 4: What?
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Why?
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: Why? Why are you going to do that to me?
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: I saved that one for you. I had that idea
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: before we even started podcasting.
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: You know, and I feel like it was very much
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: tailored and I hate you for it, but I will
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: say that. Okay, Darren, forgive me. I disagree to me.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: He's going to have to tell you why you're wrong
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: before he can give his rating. I could feel it.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: I could feel it. No, no, no, no, no, it's
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: not about wrong.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: It's it's about the fact that any movie where you're
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: going to say, oh no, you just have to go
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: to the end. It's a very tough sell, man, It's
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: a very tough cell. I will say that.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: That's like when you watch a TV like, you recommend
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: a TV show like once you pass the first three
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: seasons when it really.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: Like, hey, guys, give and shake, but you gotta.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah Inoor season Indoor season two, just skip the first
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: six episodes, but the best seasons.
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: You've ever sew Yes, I know you're not wrong, but
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: you're also.
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: Wrong, absolutely right, and you know it. Anyway, I give
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: this a four as well. Uh, it is a three
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: star movie because at some point it climbs up its
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: own Malkovich hole and stays there. But the performances are
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: so damn good, and then that ending does just pay
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: off so much like it is Darren's right in this sense,
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: if you sit there, you just stick with it. You
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: get to the end and you're like, wow, this is
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: meta on every level I ever wanted. And the performances
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: are great. Four star movie. So that's where I end.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: Four stars.
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: Just take the audio where he said I was right,
• 50:27
  Speaker 4: and then just keep it.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: Dump the rest. Hopefully I was sloppy enough in my
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: speech that you cannot isolate it.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: For me, I give it a four as well, So
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: this is four across the board. I think this is
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: a really good movie. I often forget how good this
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: movie is, even though I've seen it many times. But
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: every single time I watch it, I'm reminded of how
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: much fun it is and how interesting it is. But
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: at the same time, it's not perfect, I think for
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: the reasons that both of you guys have said, like
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: the first two acts aren't perfect, Like there's a lot
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: of things I'm just like I could skip that scene,
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: or like I could move past this, or like that's
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: too awkward. I know you're supposed to be awkward, but
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: it's too awkward, you know, things of that nature. But
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: there's so much going right for it. And even though
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: I think that Being John Malkovich is a better movie
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: than adaptation, and even though I gave Being John Malkovich
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: a four, I'm still giving it a four because this
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: is solid craftsmanship across the board. So, Darren, what are
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: we doing next week?
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: Well, we're heading into our next chapter in the House
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: of Spike Jones with two thousand and Nine's where the
• 51:37
  Speaker 4: Wild Things are based on the beloved classic.
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Here on House Sits join the Revolution, join the net
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: Polta