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A Mother's Greatest Fear: A Life of Greater Faith, with Phoenix Hayes · True Comfort

• Teasi Cannon (00:02) Hi, I'm Teasi and I want to welcome you to true comfort where it's our desire to live out 2nd Corinthians chapter 1 verses 3 and 4 which assure us we have a God who comforts us in all our afflictions and encourages us to share the comfort that we've received with others who need it. And I want to welcome my guest, Phoenix Hayes, who's also a dear friend of mine. Thank you so much for being here, Phoenix. Phoenix (00:27) I'm so glad to be here at TSC. Teasi Cannon (00:30) So Phoenix is an amazing woman. She's a wife and a mother. She is a speaker and an author and the host of the podcast Weird Hill to Die On. And she is also the founder of a ministry called Serpents and Doves that seeks to train the next generation to equip them to stand firm in the truth of the gospel with confidence, clarity, and courage. So that's awesome. I want to add, those are all amazing and she's like so much more. So I'm gonna add on a personal note that Phoenix is just a brilliant, brilliant woman. And I think probably capable at far more things than is good for her to be capable at. Just one of those people that is just so gifted and she has been such a personal encouragement to me at times when I have been. Very broken and discouraged. She's been just merciful and joyful and Phoenix, I just really appreciate you. I just want you to know that. ⁓ Well, I mean every word of it. I appreciate even recently you helping me figure out Canva a little bit. I don't think I've got it figured out, but you definitely tried. Phoenix (01:40) Gosh, can every podcast interview start this way? That's amazing. I'm so impressed at your willingness to dive in and learn so many skills. mean, most people would just be like, I'm not going to. You do it. I am so impressed by you. I want to be you when I grow up. I'll put it that way. Teasi Cannon (02:04) Yeah. Well, thank you. I don't know that I'm retaining any of it, I can, you know, budget for a little while, I think. ⁓ also everything Phoenix says sounds amazing because of her wonderful accent. So that is something I love as well. Yeah. But what I'd love for you to share with us before we get into the main conversation today. Phoenix (02:18) I get that. Teasi Cannon (02:35) is just a little bit about what led you to study apologetics. How did you get interested in that? what's your journey on that? Phoenix (02:42) Hmm. My journey is not very interesting. wish I had the same problem of not having growing up feeling like I didn't have this cool testimony. I didn't leave a life in from a gang or drug dealing. You know what I mean? Like every kid that grows up in the church has these visiting speakers who have just the craziest past. And you're thinking, ⁓ I've just always been here anyway. Teasi Cannon (03:00) Mm-hmm. Phoenix (03:12) I now in the apologetics world also lack a really compelling story about how I had a major crisis of faith. However, whatever works, whatever gets you on the journey to apologetics, it doesn't really matter. So my story is simply ⁓ for decades, I had been raised in the church, had a firm, confident faith in Jesus Christ, wanted to serve, but never really found exactly where I fit. I had worked with youth, had worked with women, had, I think that's the extent of it, just helped, I helped in media of course and things like that. And then one day I am at home with, I think, you know, two toddlers and a newborn and I'm doing something on the internet, I forget what, some work related task and I stumble upon a video on YouTube titled... Something to the effect of, ⁓ Christian gets destroyed by atheist. Something like that. And a little piece of me hesitated. thought, I'm curious, because that's a compelling headline. But I'm a little scared that what if I click on this and the atheist crushes my faith with whatever brilliant argument he has. And just in that very short. Teasi Cannon (04:19) Yeah. Phoenix (04:32) wrestle internally, I thought to myself, well, wouldn't you want to know if that's all it took one YouTube video to dismantle your entire faith, what you want to know now? So I thought, OK, let's go. So it happened to be Christopher Hitchens and William Lane Craig. I mean, we're talking about the two most famous Christian and atheist ⁓ debaters at the time. And Teasi Cannon (04:45) Hmm ⁓ wow, yeah. Yeah. Phoenix (05:00) I watched and I was very impressed by this very well spoken gentleman called William Lane Craig and I was a little put off by the snarky tone of this British ⁓ Christopher Hitchens. But as I listened, was, I recognized that there was a couple of points that Hitchens made that caught my attention. I thought, you know what, I wouldn't know how to answer that. But Craig wasn't fazed by anything. And he, I mean, we all know this. He's so smooth and he's so Teasi Cannon (05:05) Mm-hmm. You Mm-hmm. Phoenix (05:29) calm and he did not mirror any of the attitude back. He just confidently gave his reply in a very gracious way, exactly how I would hope to do one day. And I just watched them thought, Lord, if I could do that for you, that would be a life well lived for me. ⁓ I mean, obviously I've got other, I contribute in other ways. I still, I'm still a mother, I'm still a wife, all these things. But if I could represent you the way... Teasi Cannon (05:49) Hmm Phoenix (05:58) this man did. I would be so proud and that really is as best I can think the beginning of the end. I mean that was such a such a pivotal moment in my life that set me on such a clear path that aligned all my quirks and personality traits in just such a unicorn mix way that I felt such Teasi Cannon (06:09) Hey Hey. Phoenix (06:27) purpose and joy and diving into this world of apologetics and by extension diving deeper into theology and also philosophy, things that you never thought, I never thought I'd be studying and I am and I love it. Teasi Cannon (06:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, I feel your joy. I and I hope others I I'm hoping it will be contagious because as ⁓ first of all, I want to say I really commend you for for going ahead and watching the video the YouTube video. You know that is Phoenix (06:49) Yeah. in the video. Where would we be? A headline. Where are they now? And we just go back and never watch the video. Who knows? Teasi Cannon (07:02) Right. Yeah, no, I think it would have, I mean, you might not have immediately lost your faith, but your faith would not be as bolstered as it is today. ⁓ You would have, and you would have maybe had that nagging suspicion in the back of your head that. Phoenix (07:14) No. Teasi Cannon (07:20) wow, somewhere out there is, you know, someone can destroy my faith. So I think it's encouraging to others to hear. That's kind of like just jumping off the high dive. There is a little bit of a fear that what if I click on this and this is going to destroy my entire scaffolding of my life. ⁓ But you and I and so many others, I mean, this is one of the reasons why I think that apologetics, Phoenix (07:37) Yeah, a little bit, yes. Teasi Cannon (07:46) which is, you know, for, I've mentioned in other episodes, but just simply the study of reasons that support what we believe. Why do we believe what we believe? Coming from 1 Peter 3.15, but it's such a gift of love from God. It really just boils down to that. So, because we need to be able to depend on him in our lives. And so it's an intellectual pursuit, but yet I, Phoenix (07:58) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (08:16) I see it as. this tender gift because there really is nothing to fear. So that brings me to the heart of the main conversation that we are gonna have tonight. in each episode, I am inviting a Christian apologist to join us to open up his or her heart to just share honestly about a situation or ⁓ just a season that was very hard and heartbreaking and confusing. And then to share with us. what truth from God's word and the biblical worldview gave them comfort through all of that. And then also just to show us that the substantiation from evidence, what is the evidence that you lean into when you're tempted to doubt all the promises of God. What is just a line or two of evidence? And so, we'll talk more as you share your heart, but I want to thank you again for your willingness to come in and share this way. I know it's going to bless many, that's my hope, is that people will see they're not alone, that this will glorify God, and that we will all walk away feeling more confident that Jesus is actually the way, the truth, and the life. And so Phoenix, I'm going to just let you start sharing wherever you'd like to in your story, and thank you. Phoenix (09:41) Yeah, no. So TC, when you reached out, of course, you start searching through the archives of past breakups and that time you, you know, you're trying to think what's some epic pain point from my past that I've completely recovered from and would have no issue discussing at this point without getting choked up. That isn't too personal or ⁓ the person listening wouldn't immediately be like, they're talking about me. Teasi Cannon (10:07) Okay. Phoenix (10:08) So after weighing the different things, I thought, you know what? I'm going to talk about something that I wish I could say was a past situation, but it's not. It's ongoing. I thought that may make it all the more powerful to share because I know I'm not the only person dealing with this. So. ⁓ I have four children, as you know, and they're aged 11 and under, and of the four, three of them have been diagnosed with autism ⁓ spectrum disorder. And this is a condition that does not run on my side of the family or my husband's side of the family. We do not know where it came from. And yet, somehow, by our powers combined, we have created a 75 % success rate producing these children on the autism spectrum. And that looks very different for all three. Teasi Cannon (10:57) Mm. Phoenix (11:09) of the ones with the diagnosis. And this is why it is a spectrum disorder, because you can have everything from the brilliant minds working in Silicon Valley coding the next amazing program that's going to figure out how to turn. I don't know, pee into water. Or you've got people at the other end that can't use the bathroom on their own and can barely communicate. of course Hollywood tends to depict the popular end. I'm thinking of the good, is it the good doctor? ⁓ The Doogie Housers of the world, these brilliant, amazingly gifted people. That can be a product of. Teasi Cannon (11:31) You see? Mm. Right. Phoenix (11:55) being on the spectrum. But it doesn't look like that for everyone. So we have a mix of ⁓ what they call high functioning, very verbal, very imaginative, just absolute delight to be around one of my children. I mean, they're all a delight to be around. Don't get me wrong. ⁓ And then... ⁓ Teasi Cannon (12:10) Right. Yeah. Phoenix (12:14) my youngest who's six and barely verbal at this point and still being potty trained. And we really don't know what her future looks like. We can see she's very bright. She's there's a lot of wheels turning and she'll just surprise us with hilarious statements that we didn't even know she could say at unexpected times. And then other times she appears completely helpless and we just don't know what she needs, what she wants. So all that to say. We have no idea what we're doing. And neither of us come from a caregiver background, an education background, a special ed background. In fact, I was the kid that was terrified of being around other children with intellectual ⁓ disabilities. It made me so uncomfortable. I did not gravitate toward them. I avoided them. ⁓ And I remember thinking as a kid, lord. please don't ever let me have a child with special needs like this because I wouldn't know what to do. you know, fast forward and you're thinking to yourself, I never should have prayed that. This is on me. That's what you get. I should have just said, Lord, don't make me a millionaire. That's what I should have said. ⁓ But this, I know I'm coming across very aloof and not aloof, but very smiley about it. Teasi Cannon (13:28) Gosh. Phoenix (13:41) But I've been processing this interview all day and I broke down in tears multiple times today thinking about what am going to say about something that is so painful in my life and yet also such a source of joy. And it's such a complex array of feelings and knowing that this is such a huge The numbers of diagnosis with this condition and similar ones have spiked astronomically over the last few years. I thought it's really well overdue that I talk about this publicly at some point because I know there's going to be so many parents dealing with this right now. And of course, in terms of what I feel, there's guilt that I did something wrong. either physically during the pregnancy, was there, did I not eat the right things? Did I not take the right vitamins? How is it possible that it could happen this many times? There is the spiritual game, because I grew up in a word of faith background, which also not many people know about. And so in that community, typically, this happened because of some past sin, some generational curse. Teasi Cannon (15:03) Yeah. Yeah. Phoenix (15:07) or simply lack of faith because you haven't taken control and spoken the name of Jesus and broken this of your children. So it's dealing with that baggage which I don't accept at all but it still pops up periodically. ⁓ It's looking at your children and knowing that in one regard they're still perfect and valuable and precious. Teasi Cannon (15:09) Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Phoenix (15:36) beyond compare, and yet being real and knowing that this is not the way it was meant to be. And God did not plan this for us. He planned perfection for us, for them, ⁓ right back in the garden. And this is a natural consequence of the fall. So it's getting real about what does that really look like? What does this really mean, the effect of the fall? Teasi Cannon (15:39) Mm-hmm. Phoenix (16:07) It's processing the fact that I may never be able to fully explain the gospel to my children, at least two of them. ⁓ It means trusting that God has that covered, has that gap covered. It means ⁓ grieving, the grief, like any kind of grief, you're never done. You think you're done and then something happens and it hits that grief button again and you're like, it's still there. And for us, it was just a couple of weeks ago wrapping up the end of school, our oldest completed fifth grade and there was so much celebration over the fifth graders graduating and moving up to middle school. There was a parade in the school and there was a walking ceremony and there was all these things. And the only thing I think I could bring myself to go to with my husband was a picnic. And even that was honestly very painful to go to because I'm looking at my boy and we're not celebrating his graduation or his achievement. We're... Teasi Cannon (17:17) Hmm. Phoenix (17:31) going through the motions of him being passed from one special ed program to the next because he's not going through the like he started out going through the mainstream classroom but he's now off in a corner classroom for the children that again their abilities range from the point of some rocking in a corner to others just being a little bit manic and whipping around the classroom but they're brightest can be. I mean that's the spectrum even in that classroom and that's where my son has been put by our choice and I don't mean to say that's where they put him. We advocated for that for him because it seemed like the safest place for him and he was reaching a point where he was becoming cognitively aware of the differences between him and his peers and that would cause distress and I just look at my precious boy in particular who is Teasi Cannon (18:04) Wow. Yeah. Phoenix (18:30) bright enough to know that he's different but not bright enough or powerful enough, shall we say, to do anything about it. And I wrestle with that tremendously because to me the word torment comes up a lot in my thinking. To be trapped like that, unable to fully express yourself and fully be able to explain. Teasi Cannon (18:58) Wow. Phoenix (19:01) what's going on. And the word cursed also comes up. And I don't mean that in the sense of some magic spell has been a curse, but growing up, when you think of the princesses who would have this curse placed on them, it would be something where they had enough, but not quite enough freedom. ⁓ think of, okay, this is a terrible example, but I think of Ariel. the little mermaid who so desperately wanted her freedom, wanted her legs. Well, she got it, but she couldn't keep her voice. And so she's up there. And so she has some freedom, but not enough to be able to explain who she is and what she wants and how she feels. And I often look at my two of my children in that way, that they have full mobility, full, very healthy individuals. You would never know. Teasi Cannon (19:31) Mm. Phoenix (20:00) until you started to speak to them and then you realize, there's like a veil between them and me and they can't fully get out what they're trying to say and that is agonizing as a parent because you long to rescue them and to pull that out of them and it's... Teasi Cannon (20:18) Yeah. Phoenix (20:29) It's just, you can't save them. That's the word that just comes to me again and again when I have my dark nights. It's usually at night when I'm overtired and feeling emotional. I cry out to God and I just say, God, I can't save him. I can't save him. There's no pill. There's no therapy. I mean, we've done therapies to help, but there's no cure. This is, I mean, at best, I don't know if he'll ever be living independently. Teasi Cannon (20:52) Yeah. Phoenix (20:59) I don't believe he'll ever get married. He won't go to college. I mean, I'm not gonna place limits on him. If God wants to do something amazing, that would be wonderful. But ⁓ yeah, just periodically I'll, I have to stop and think, wait, that's probably not gonna happen for him. And then the grief hits again in a fresh wave. Like, ⁓ okay. Teasi Cannon (21:08) Mm-hmm. Right. It's like loss that hasn't happened yet. It's just a it's a continual loss of what you wish he could have. I Phoenix (21:26) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so much, so much, so much. My husband and I wanted a big family and we wanted to raise these children that would just be just on fire for the Lord. And I have two that may never understand what even the concept of God is. And I just, I get angry with God. Like, why would you do that to me? Like, as if this is, and I know, and we'll get into this, I know that that isn't God. God isn't cruel. And yet I accuse him of cruelty. I say, why do you do this? This is so cruel to do to a parent. Yeah. So thank God for grounding your faith in something beyond your feelings, right? Because the feelings change. Teasi Cannon (22:12) Mm-hmm. Right. I'm curious just before you share more, like you said, when you're, you know, I have my thoughts. It seems like when we put our heads on the pillow at night ⁓ is kind of when everything kind of just, yeah, you start to process the deepest pain of your day or your psyche just says, great, you're quiet. We can now think about all the horrible things. ⁓ But you mentioned that, know, you and gosh, Phoenix, my heart. Phoenix (22:40) The worst time. Teasi Cannon (22:56) There's just no pain like the pain we feel for our kids when they're broken or hurting or other kids are being cruel or you know and I just I don't want to just whisk by everything you just said because my heart is literally with you and it and I feel just massive compassion but I mean and I'm just overwhelmed by your your joy in the midst of it but Phoenix (23:03) Boom. Teasi Cannon (23:21) You mentioned, you know, laying down at night and just coming to the conclusion that I can't save him and crying out to God, I can't save him. What does that thought process usually look like as it continues before you fall asleep? Phoenix (23:36) Sometimes on a good on a good night when it happens, and thank God it's not frequent anymore. But when it On a good night when it happens, I'll remember something that gives me hope about the future. Having an internal perspective is a lifeline when you are suffering of any kind, Especially when it's the kind of suffering that you know there is no hope for on this side of eternity. There is no cure. There is no happy ending in the earthly sense. Teasi Cannon (23:57) yeah, absolutely, yep. Phoenix (24:13) But in the eternal sense and in the hope that we have in the promise of the gospel, all of that, you realize in a thousand years from now, this will be nothing. maintaining that perspective is so important for every believer. And I tell you, nothing keeps that front and center of your mind like pain. So does that, ⁓ if it's a bad night, ⁓ Teasi Cannon (24:38) Yeah. Phoenix (24:43) I'll just yell at him in my, know, silently like cry out to him, my maker, why, why, why, why, why, why, until I cry myself to sleep. I mean, there are some nights like that, you know? Because in the end, we know the intellectual answer. There's a fall, the world isn't perfect, you weren't made for this world, I have come to restore, there is hope beyond. Great. Teasi Cannon (24:58) Yeah. Right. Phoenix (25:11) That's all great, but right now, I'm in agony. And sometimes it just isn't a pill for that. you know, there's just nothing. And you just have to sit in it and then, and hope that you feel better in the morning. And usually I do. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (25:13) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I can't relate to the exact, you know, agony, but. There are a lot of times in our Christian walk where we are in agony and struggling and it doesn't resolve immediately. It doesn't just, ⁓ one quick prayer and then suddenly we feel better. And it can stretch. I mean, I've been through long seasons where there doesn't seem to be any relief. And one of the things you said that I think is so important is that your faith is not built on feelings. Phoenix (25:43) Mmm. Yeah. Right. Teasi Cannon (26:04) And because there are times when we just aren't gonna feel anything that is light or happy. And I think, I've, I, this is why I, part of why I wanted to start this podcast is because a faith that's built on feelings alone can easily be demolished by feelings. And that's why we want to have Phoenix (26:12) Yeah, yeah. Teasi Cannon (26:32) ⁓ that robust substantiation and knowledge of God's character, not just what he gives us, but who he actually is to sustain us through times like this. And like you're saying, this isn't a season that's going to end tomorrow or next week. You're going through something that, you know, barring a miracle, you're going to walk this with your children. Phoenix (26:47) Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Right. until they go or I go. Yeah. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (27:02) all the days of, yeah, yeah. ⁓ And that is a long haul of just endurance. Phoenix (27:08) Mm. Mm, yeah. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (27:13) It's yeah, which you know, we know biblically is wonderful like hope and endurance and perseverance. But in the daily, the daily of it, you know, so I don't want to interrupt. I want you to keep going. So tell us share if you I don't know if you had any more to share about just what that I guess tell us a little bit. You did mention this is something I just remembered. Phoenix (27:22) Mmm, all this wonderful Teasi Cannon (27:43) your relationship with God, how do you experience that through all of this? I'm sure it probably kind of fluctuates, but in general, how do you maintain your relationship with Him through it all? Phoenix (28:02) I ask myself how would I get through any of this if I didn't have the confidence and trust that I have in his character. Because from the outside, I honestly think to create... Teasi Cannon (28:14) Mm. Phoenix (28:20) a being with enough intelligence to know they're broken but without enough ability to do a thing about it, to desire friendships and relationships and love, and yet have no ability to form them is bitterly cruel to do to something or someone. And I, but I know God is not cruel. I know He's not. And that gets me through. It carries me through because in the physical and the natural what I see in front of me is just cruel and ⁓ fear, the fear of what others will do to them if I'm not there. I'm one of those silly people that just loves true crime documentaries. Especially when children are involved, I'm all the more drawn in. Teasi Cannon (29:05) Mm. Yeah, no, same. Yeah, Phoenix (29:20) So of course, Teasi Cannon (29:21) we torture ourselves. Phoenix (29:23) yes. I, so of course I think of those things. think who will take care of them when I'm old, who would love them? ⁓ all those things. And I have to remind myself, do you really believe you love your children more than I do? That's God, right? Do you really believe you are more good, more noble? Teasi Cannon (29:44) Mm. Right. Phoenix (29:50) more honorable, more loving than I am. No, I know I'm not. And so it's those reminders of who I'm talking to and who I have put my trust in that carries me, that has this, that's got this. Because evil might happen. The worst thing I can imagine might happen to my child. But listen, it's happened to other children. Why is mine any different? Why is mine more special? Why should mine be protected from the horrors of the world and not someone else's? The fact is, the things I fear might happen to my child are happening to other children, have happened, are happening this very moment. Who was praying for them? Who was crying out for them? Maybe their mothers are, maybe they're not. It's just an ongoing reminder that this Teasi Cannon (30:37) Right. Right. Phoenix (30:50) is a very broken world and it's not the way it's meant to be. just everything, every fear kind of redirects me back to see this isn't home. This isn't how it's meant to be. It points back to the perfection and the goodness and the hope that we only have in Him. Teasi Cannon (30:53) Yeah. Yeah, so what is it like when we say, like for you, what is it that assures you that God is good? Can you share, you know, we say we know God's good and we trust in his goodness, but is there something specific, a scripture or, you know, what is it that you ground that claim in for yourself? God's good. Phoenix (31:24) Mm. Yeah. There are two things in particular that come to mind when I think of this. One is called, it's got different names, but it's really an argument from dignity, from human value. I can look at my child and I know that regardless of their ability, their ability to contribute to a society, their talent, their looks, their skin color, their sexual identity, all these things. No matter what those things are, they possess inherent value and dignity. It's what makes us universally cringe and withdraw from the idea of just death over life, especially innocent life. ⁓ The only worldview that justifies that knowledge that we can't suppress, we can't deny, is the one offered. through Christianity, that we each don't have value through anything we've done or anything we can do, anything we can contribute, but simply because we are his image bearers. So that doesn't necessarily point to his goodness, but it points to the fact that I know this life has value beyond what he can do or contribute. Where does that value come from? So that if anything is an argument that God is out there, he exists. Whether or not that God is good, I think the best place comes from, well one, trusting that the word is reliable, because of course the Bible is full of explaining the character of God. And I do believe it's reliable and there's a lot of evidence for that that I am not an expert in. But just one simple part is Jesus Christ and the resurrection. Teasi Cannon (33:19) Yeah. Phoenix (33:30) If a God is willing to come and save us and lower himself and all that, all that he did to bridge that gap between us, the creation, and him, the creator, that's a good God. That's not just a good God out there. It's a good God right here that loves and wants connection and cares about our suffering. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (33:50) Yeah. Phoenix (33:58) And of course, and we have so much evidence for the fact that there was a man who claimed to be God. His name was Jesus Christ. He lived at this place at this time and did these things. And he died and we have all this evidence that he rose. So, yeah. Teasi Cannon (34:16) Yeah, so is the resurrection, would you say that the resurrection is one of those saving lines of evidence for you or would you, do you have like, when you are in the deepest throes of reading the promises of God about his goodness and his word, what is, like I know for myself, it will happen regularly where I will have these moments when I'm thinking, am I just crazy? know, ⁓ I'm believing that there's a God that's going to do X, Y, Z, you know, like, and I think that's just the human condition. But, and then I immediately go to, you know, the evidence that brings me back around to my strong, like, or at least helps me cling on, hang on, tell I can Phoenix (34:47) You Teasi Cannon (35:11) find peace again. For you, what would that be? What is that go-to life-saving line of evidence? Phoenix (35:21) It's not the resurrection. For me, it's really, I mean, this is the fancy term, it's the teleological argument. It's the fact that I see order where there should be none. That always, always brings me back. That always brought me back before I even knew there was a word for that argument that I'm talking about. The simplicity and yet the complexity of a flower. Teasi Cannon (35:32) Yeah. Yeah. Phoenix (35:45) is cannot be an accident. So that always brings me back to there is something creating order in a world that there is no reason for there to be order. And then the second that was right up next to it, that fact they're walking hand in hand is. Teasi Cannon (35:46) Right. Right. Phoenix (36:01) I see evil, I feel evil, I feel pain, and I don't like it because I expect something better than that. Why? Why do I expect something better than that? Because we were meant for something better than that. It's the whole C.S. Lewis, why do I, why do we object to a rotten world? It's like, why do I object to a crooked stick? Unless I believe a straight stick exists out there. Yeah, those are the two, really. Teasi Cannon (36:10) Wow. Yeah. Right. Right. I love that. That's great. I'm sort of, mean, this is kind of, I guess, an apologetics goofy thing to say, but I was excited when you said it wasn't the resurrection because, well, I mean, because that would seem the more obvious when I love hearing how other, you I love hearing how you lean into just looking at the design in the world and knowing there has to be an intelligence behind that. You know, you can't just, you know, you can't throw out Scrabble cubes. Phoenix (36:38) ⁓ no. yes. Teasi Cannon (36:56) and expect to see I love you, Mom, you know, on the table. Like there's something that's putting these things in order and ⁓ it's just very plain and I love that. ⁓ For me, it does always end up being the resurrection, but actually the cosmological argument as well, which is just the origins. Like everything that began to exist has a cause and the universe began to exist, therefore it has a cause. But these are just the... ⁓ Phoenix (36:58) Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Teasi Cannon (37:26) This is just why I say apologetics is such a tender loving gift from God because and that he knows we're gonna doubt that he knows we're gonna go through these earth shattering Phoenix (37:31) Mm. Teasi Cannon (37:40) ⁓ Circumstances this side of heaven and is kind enough to reveal himself in so many ways in scripture and in nature It's just it's it's such a kindness But you mentioned earlier and maybe you might want to share something else But like as you're walking through what you just described and will continue to walk through is there a counterfeit? Message or like a counterfeit Comfort is what I'm calling Phoenix (37:50) Yeah. Teasi Cannon (38:10) it that is right out there in your face kind of trying to tempt you that once you take a good look at it it just pales in comparison to what God's comfort is offering you in this. Phoenix (38:23) Yeah, you know, I have four. Teasi Cannon (38:26) Okay, good. We need to hear them. Phoenix (38:29) ⁓ So the first that comes to mind is, okay, this used to drive me nuts when I first entered the world of autism and autistic parents, parents of children with autism, I should say. I am not the mom group type. I am not the person who finds clubs at church or on Facebook to, I just, I'm not wired that way. So that's not a criticism of moms who do. I'm glad you exist because usually I get tidbits of advice from you who follow those groups. So anyway, I did... do a little bit of research and I thought, maybe there's some support groups, something like that, that I'll check out. And I was immediately put off because I started scrolling through some of the conversations and the back and forth between these moms and these dads. And one of the things that jumped out, this isn't a counterfeit worldview or something like that. It's just a deception. I don't know what else to call it. So I guess it's a counterfeit. Where they would say, Teasi Cannon (39:37) Yeah. Phoenix (39:41) I wouldn't change a thing about little James or whoever it was. I wouldn't change a thing. They're exactly as they're meant to be. And that really irritated me because I thought, are you kidding me? Do you expect me to believe that if you could switch a button and make it so that your child Teasi Cannon (39:47) Mm. Phoenix (40:07) could freely express every thought that is in their mind that they are currently blocked from expressing because it comes out all backwards and out of order. If you could push a button and they would suddenly be able to form healthy relationships with their peers, to know what it's like to be on a team sport, to know what it's like to fall in love, to go to college, to, forget college, I don't care if they go to college, to pursue anything that they are passionate about, to be able to maintain the focus, to see it through to the end, to know what it's like to have a relationship, to understand what it's like to be a parent one day. Teasi Cannon (40:32) Yeah. Phoenix (40:45) Are you telling me you wouldn't push that button to give them all of that? I call BS on that. And I just couldn't take it. couldn't take... Now, don't get me wrong. It's a spectrum. Maybe their little Jeffrey or James is that... That percentage that really is just a little bit quirky, but otherwise a genius. If I got that... Teasi Cannon (40:50) Right. Yeah. Yeah, no. Right. Phoenix (41:13) Yeah, maybe I wouldn't push the button. But most kids on the spectrum don't fall in that category. so, like a grief, I would never return my child. I want my child as he is, if the alternative is nothing. But if I had a way to make them not suffer and to be able to enjoy the full richness of life that I wanted for them, I would do it in a heartbeat. Teasi Cannon (41:18) Right. Exactly. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it seems like sort of a shaming message too, you know, because if you don't feel that way about if you don't feel like, oh, I wouldn't change a thing like, well, what you know, it's like, you're a horrible person for not for not for wanting something better for your child. So yeah, well, that that is definitely a lie. Yeah. Phoenix (41:46) Yeah. Right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ It's a lie, it's a lie and I know enough to say my child, his value is not in any way affected ⁓ from a biblical perspective but from a utilitarian perspective, absolutely his value has been impacted but thank God I don't have a utilitarian worldview. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. Teasi Cannon (42:25) Exactly. Yes, yeah, that's definitely a counterfeit that would not bring you comfort. I think what I wanted to say real quickly is that like, you would, I mean, maybe you would wanna push the button for them to have a better quality of life, it doesn't mean that God is not using what you're walking through with them for good. That there aren't beautiful treasures that are coming out of this painful journey. So it's not the same as just saying there's nothing good coming out of it or that there's no beautiful moments or. Phoenix (42:32) Right. no, not at all. Teasi Cannon (42:57) or something that God's working in you that would possibly never have been able to, you know, so not that it would have been choice A on how to build character or whatever it's going on in you, just there are, that's one of the things I love is seeing things through the gospel lens as well and the hope of. Phoenix (43:05) Yeah. Teasi Cannon (43:21) know, eternity and just what Jesus did is being able to see things with a redemptive glance. ⁓ You know, whether or not it's whole yet or restored yet, there's hope of that and there is redemption in process. Everything that is, you know, God doesn't call bad things good, but he uses everything for good in the lives of those who love him. Phoenix (43:29) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That is the most vital distinction. What you said right there. I don't look at my child as though they're bad or they're a mistake. But if I could make it better, if I could leave the pain in any way, any way, or form, the way any parent would, no matter what their child's dealing with, you would jump in. But does that mean I know better? I admit I would be pushing that button. Teasi Cannon (43:49) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Phoenix (44:15) at my own detriment to a certain extent because I can tell you I would not be nearly as sanctified as I have been forced to become walking this with him. can't, I mean, you wanna know how selfish you are? Become a parent. You wanna know how really selfish you are? Become a parent of someone with special needs who asks you the same question. Teasi Cannon (44:28) Yeah. Yeah. Phoenix (44:45) I cannot tell you how many times in a morning because they're anxious and they don't have the words to express that anxiety. So they simply choose to ask the questions that they already know the answer to so they can have it affirmed and affirmed and affirmed. And you can't get angry because you know that this is, this is all they've got. you, you, know what I mean? Like, I mean, that squashes out. Teasi Cannon (44:57) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, yeah. Phoenix (45:14) the selfishness in you to a certain extent. Teasi Cannon (45:16) Yeah, well, and I'm also just, I can't help but just know that you are just, dependence on the Spirit, on the Holy Spirit, your dependence on God, I guarantee you, is constantly in action. You know, I mean, and really, you know, with the biblical worldview, we know that Phoenix (45:28) Mm. Yes. Yes, it really is. Teasi Cannon (45:46) There is no flourishing for humanity when we are not dependent on God. Phoenix (45:50) Mm. Teasi Cannon (45:51) And so in a roundabout way, this is pushing you into a dependence upon your creator that actually is the only alignment when we are in like eye to eye with our creator, fully dependent on him is where we're on. That's the only position in which we will ever experience human flourishing. And so, you know, this is kind of that. I think C.S. Lewis did say, you know, God, I'm going to blow this quote, but it's something along the lines of God whispers to us, Phoenix (46:11) Right. Teasi Cannon (46:21) and our accomplishments, but he shouts in our pain. It's his megaphone to rouse a deaf world, but it's also, I think it's his megaphone to remind us, hey, look at me, I've got you, and I'm sufficient. ⁓ So anyway, I don't wanna keep rambling. I want you to finish what other... Phoenix (46:23) Yes, I know. Yes. Yes. right. No, you're exactly right. That's on the one hand, I guess I can say I feel very close to God on a daily basis. And if I just stop there, it could come across as look at me, I'm so close with God, but you have to complete the sentence. Why? Because I'm in agony, because I'm terrified. I mean, no one wants to pay that price, but that is often the price to be in complete surrender. Teasi Cannon (46:54) Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. No. Right. Phoenix (47:10) And none of us willingly surrender usually, you know, we fight. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (47:14) Isn't that crazy how much easier it would be if we would all just know we have a God and he makes the rules and we surrendered because he's good and he you know, like if we could just like keep it simple, but no, we have this thing called free will. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Phoenix (47:29) That's right, this thing called free will. So I'll be real quick at this. My second point is very similar to the first one. I was reminded, my husband and I visited a coffee shop here in Charlotte and it's adorable themed and everything. And one of the things we love about it is they hire people with special needs. So often you'll see people with autism or Down syndrome working in this little coffee shop. And it's got such a sweet atmosphere and we love it. What bothered me, and this is just like the analytical apologetics piece coming out that kind of ruins the plot of every movie if you're a real cop and you watch a cop movie. They had t-shirts there and the t-shirt said, not broken. And I was like, this bothers me. Why? I need to unpack it. of course my poor husband who never even asked. Teasi Cannon (48:01) I love that. Yeah. Phoenix (48:27) got the explanation for why it bothered me. He said, I said, I get what they're trying to do. They're trying to erase the idea that this person is less than, but the way to express it is not with the words not broken, because I can tell you I've paid thousands in therapy bills for children that are not broken. I mean, this is just a lie. They are broken to a certain extent, but Teasi Cannon (48:28) Right. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm Right. Mm-hmm. Phoenix (48:57) But let's back up here. Me too. I am broken. We are all broken in some capacity. ⁓ Their brokenness is just so much more obvious and we do what we can to help alleviate that brokenness so that they can function as well as they can in society. So the message not broken is such a false one and well-intentioned, but didn't capture. Teasi Cannon (49:00) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Phoenix (49:27) I think what they were really trying to say, what I believe they should have said is not less than. If we could all understand that, that these people are not less. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (49:33) Right. Right. In value, in worth. And yeah, but I mean, even the message not broken in its broader, you know, meaning would leave us as a problem in the broader culture because then we don't need a fixer. We don't need a savior. We don't, we're perfect the way we are, you know? What, who needs Jesus for anything? So yeah, yeah. Phoenix (49:51) Yes. ⁓ Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So that's a common, a common deception anyway, because we're all broken. Then the two others are more theological, I suppose. One would be the classic God will never give you more than you can handle, which I was raised being taught and people have attempted to Teasi Cannon (50:04) Right. Right. Phoenix (50:18) tell me again well meaning and of course there's no scripture that says that and Teasi Cannon (50:20) Yeah, exactly. He's really in the business of giving us always more than we can handle. Yeah. Phoenix (50:28) Exactly. Why would a God who wants connection with us make us completely self-sufficient so that we would never experience a crisis that we didn't cry out to him over? Right? So there's that. And then this is another well-meaning attempt that just I thought made no theological sense, which was, well, God must have known that you were the right parents for him. And I thought, Teasi Cannon (50:32) Mm-hmm. Right. Phoenix (50:56) What does this person think? That God has a quota of autism kids he has to make every year and then he just chooses which parents get them. Like I was meant to feel honored that God had chosen me to have three of his, of this category child because like I said he has this quota he has to meet each year. I thought, I mean... Teasi Cannon (51:16) Right. Phoenix (51:25) I can't get upset at you. You're obviously trying to be helpful. You're trying to compliment me. Thank you, thank you. But when I go away, I'm thinking through them. Like that makes no theological sense to say, God must have picked you for a reason. He must have known you could handle it, that you'd be great at it. It's like, well meaning. Teasi Cannon (51:28) Right. Right. Yeah, well-meaning, but again, it leads us into a self-sufficient mindset, you know, or like finding your remedy in your own sufficiency. okay, I guess that's a great story. I must be so great that, you know, or something so strong about me or so capable or, but in fact, you've shared that that's not how you feel at all. And even, you started by saying, you prayed that you would not have this experience before you ever had children. then, yeah. And so what I hear, you know, as we, you know, I know you could share so much more and I want to say seriously, Phoenix. Phoenix (52:13) ⁓ Long before. I had forgotten that it was something I was even afraid of during my pregnancies. Teasi Cannon (52:30) I mean, I literally could cry because I'm just so thankful that you shared that. just knowing that there's so much more you could share, I mean, about what you go through on a daily basis. But just knowing that you prayed years ago, please don't let me have to have this experience. I'm afraid of this experience. But the experience came. And in your prayer life hasn't made it go away. Phoenix (52:51) Mm. Teasi Cannon (52:58) but God is faithfully walking you through it. He's faithfully walking you through it, including leading you to study apologetics. And so you said your testimony wasn't all that exciting or whatever you had said at the beginning. And I always say, what makes a testimony exciting is not the depth of our depravity. Phoenix (53:02) You hear this? Teasi Cannon (53:21) before giving our lives to the Lord, but the authenticity and the ⁓ power and the strength of our relationship with Jesus now. And so I think you have a fantastic testimony. think it's going to... ⁓really encourage a lot of people, even people who aren't parents, even parents who don't have the same circumstance. What we will maybe maybe the situation someone's walking through that is a lifelong situation looks a little different, but the remedy is still Jesus and the biblical worldview stands tall compared to all the other options out there. So I just ⁓ Phoenix (53:52) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's life giving, it's hope giving, it's everything. Teasi Cannon (54:05) Yeah, it really is. And that's not just a refrigerator magnet. That is reality. Absolutely. Phoenix (54:11) That's right, yeah. And I cannot express enough how much it's changed me for the better. And isn't it funny, if I could send it all back and not be a better person and skip the pain, I would do it. This would piece with me that's like, yeah, I would do that. But it has bred in me an empathy that did not exist before. And... Teasi Cannon (54:35) Yeah Phoenix (54:38) Of course, I'm not really particularly fazed now when I bump into people that have, you know, special needs or a little bit quirky. ⁓ It's still a club that I wish I wasn't a part of and would love to not be in it, but I am in it. I Lord knows it has. God has a lot more work to do with me. Teasi Cannon (54:54) Yeah. Yeah. Phoenix (55:01) But in fact, let me just say as an aside, I have even asked myself, did God give me, I'm so sorry, I'm thinking about my children. Did God think I needed so much work that he gave you this condition because he needed to do so much work on me? I mean, these are the thoughts, right? I must have been such bad shape that he was like, this is the only thing that's going to do it. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (55:15) Yeah. You know, I understand that kind of questioning and I think this is when I often tell myself the why questions are not going to ever bring me to a place of peace, the side of heaven. There are just, you know, but there are so many other questions that we have great answers for. How, who's with me? What have you given me as assurance? You know, who, what, how? Phoenix (55:32) you That's true. Teasi Cannon (55:56) Where am I going to live while I walk through? I mean, there are other questions we can get answers to, but the why sometimes we just have to chalk up. I've got a list of things, and I know you do too, when we get to heaven, but we have the hope of heaven and the hope of seeing him face to face a day when we actually can get our questions answered. And that is very, very assuring and comforting to me as well. Phoenix (56:21) And I'll just say that the most important question that I hope anyone takes away from this is God asking, do you trust me? That question is what gets me through. whenever the storm rages and the questions and the doubt and the fear and the pain, da-da-da-da, do you trust me, Phoenix? My answer is yes. And that will carry you through if your answer is yes. Teasi Cannon (56:31) Yeah. I love that. That is wonderful advice and such great encouragement and perfect way to wrap up and thank you again so much Phoenix and if you are listening and this was encouraging for you which I hope it was I or if you know of someone who really could use this message I I would love to encourage you to share it and also to look at the show notes because I'm going to include information on how to find Phoenix and the work that she's doing and also some resources on how to study get get started studying a apologetics if you haven't done it yet because that helps us put our trust in God and I just want to thank you so much for being here. Please make sure to subscribe if you will so that you don't miss a moment of true comfort. Thank you.